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Pride. NZ has just one recognition recognition from the US Library of Congress, and with me now is former RNZ producer and engineer and passionate archivist Gareth Watkins. Kya Gareth Brian. It feels a bit like I'm Norma Desmond coming back on Sunset Boulevard, and these studios seem very familiar and familiar faces. As long as you don't go psycho on me, [00:00:30] that's fine. Might start singing pride NZ Just remind us of what it is. So pride. NZ started 11 years ago, 2010, and it was a way of collecting and distributing rainbow LGBTI voices from a New Zealand. And so far it has over 900 recordings online of events of interviews, um, a whole range of different perspectives on Queer [00:01:00] Life in New Zealand right back to the 19 sixties. So, um, it's an amazing archive of just personal experiences that you just would not get anywhere else. So let's have a listen to something that's on the archive, shall we? We're in on the, uh, parade, and we're about to take part in the world's unofficial shortest para parade. Well, is this the first time you've been in a parade? Yes, it is. Yes, it is [00:01:30] a bit nervous, but, um, yeah, I'm excited. And so, um, who are you here today with, Uh, I'm here with, um, my group from KES. Uh, we're a little after school group that meets every Wednesdays. Um, and we just, you know, get together and hang out. And, um, we just support each other. And so why are those kind of groups important? It's really, really important because it gives you the opportunity to actually come out of your shell, you know, not have to hide anything. [00:02:00] Um, and it's great, because once you start talking about it and once you, um you know, you can start to understand everything and it's helped me a lot, you know, understand who I am and who I want to be. Why do you think, uh, pride, parades? Pride events are important because it's a celebration of the community that we have. And, um, it's you know, it's showing that we're here and, um, you know, we're part of the community, and, um, [00:02:30] we're a really strong family together. And, um, when we're all together, you know, we can accomplish great things. Now, Gareth, that was you doing the interview, wasn't it? It certainly was. And it's going back to 2019. This is the world's unofficial shortest pride parade in the world. Um, 100 metres 100 metre rainbow dash. I think this is literally This is a pedestrian crossing in and they [00:03:00] painted in rainbow colours. They chalk it in rainbow colours because the council doesn't like the idea of painting a rainbow crossing. And so they chalk it. An activist chalks it the night before and they march over it, um, on Pride Day, and then it gets washed away. Um, it's not the first rainbow crossing in New Zealand. The first one is Queenstown, the second one being in Wellington. And that was opposed by the Transport Authority and the police. And the Transport Authority said it was going to create [00:03:30] a dazzling and distracting effect. Um, which I I No, no, no. I ride over it all the time. I'm a cyclist. You know, I'm I'm pretty sort of sensitive to that kind of stuff, but Riki was was amazing because, uh, went up there. The whole community takes part. Well, from what I could see, um, the Pride parade was led by the primary school. Um, and they did a whole kind of diversity handprints. Kind of, um, banner at the start. Uh, the the the [00:04:00] parade itself. Um, it has a bit of a warm up. They start, um, about 20 minutes out of town on the coast, there's a there's a park and they they walk for about 20 minutes along the coast, and people come out of the houses and cheer and the walks long walk to the parade is longer than the parade by the little, um, degrees of magnitude. But the the feeling, um, it's it's such an inclusive, um, heartfelt, um, parade and event. And, um, the whole community come together, and it's just amazing. But there are a couple. There's [00:04:30] there's this thing that strikes me about that, Gareth, and that is that this archive is not just about finding the movements and shakers. You don't just want those voices, do you? No. No, it it's also the everyday experiences because the everyday experiences are often overlooked. Um, I, I heard on your show a couple of weeks ago about the 20 years out programme that we mark. We marked the 20th. No, no, not the 20. What was it 35th anniversary of of passing on the Homosexual Law reform bill with a sonic tonic. [00:05:00] And I go and get sound bites and I got lots of sound bites from your 20 years out documentary from 2006. It doesn't feel like 15 years ago, but here we are. But a lot of that material came from activists in the community working on access community radio. So a lot of what has been captured around kind of queer culture in New Zealand, um, particularly in radio broadcasting, is not through public broadcasters. It's not through commercial stations. It's through [00:05:30] community members going out and recording themselves. And this is, I think, where I get a lot of my inspiration from. You've always because as a colleague of mine here at RNZ and we still miss your ears, Gareth, Um, as a colleague of mine, you always view archiving material as really important. Why is that? They the the voices from the past are always kind of present. I mean, it's it's It's that that immediate connection where you hear, [00:06:00] um, somebody in your family talking to you, and it's as if they are still with you. Um, it's it's It's how people think it's how people speak. Um, and how that changes and how that changes. Yeah, absolutely. Did you start recording your own family and friends when you were younger? I think my earliest recording is of me doing a radio station called DRM Darlington Road. Um, back in the eighties. And, um, I think [00:06:30] my first bits of music were Make your mind up and making your mind up at the time. The first, the first film that I was taken to by my dad was the village people Y, MC a And so I thought, you know, did your dad have an inkling of what was going on there? I don't think any of us had an inkling of what was going on. Um, but I think actually, a lot of that storytelling comes from my dad's side. So So my dad's Welsh, Um and a lot [00:07:00] of that is is oral storytelling. And, um, Dad was amazing because, um, every time he told a story, it got kind of got bigger and bigger and bigger. Um, the the the the facts, less and less and less and um, it was it was just really lovely. Um, to be able to hear somebody express themselves in their own words and express themselves the way they want to express themselves, Um was key for me. And I think, um, that's [00:07:30] what you find in community broadcasting now, Gareth, obviously one of the reasons to have you in is because generally when you do anything to do with radio and sound it, it's great. And, um, the sound bites are going to be fantastic. We got some more from the archive from the Pride NZ archive to share. But the other reason is that pride in Z has got recognition from the US Library of Congress. Um, do you know exactly what that means and how it happened? I have [00:08:00] no idea how it happened. I was I was sitting at home. Um, he didn't get a call from Donald. I guess he's left the library now. II. I was sitting at home and an email came in and I thought, Oh, this is just spam. It's, you know, like somebody wanting $10,000 or what have you saying that the Library of Congress thought that the website was important and of historical significance, and I wonder how they found out about it. Well, II, I know [00:08:30] they have kind of researchers doing research in particular areas. I'm not sure how the site came up, but, um, I'm not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth. It's like, Yeah, I'll take it. But it's a It's a great honour. I think it's an honour. Um, for all the people that contributed to the site. So like, I mean, the website could not exist without the community feeding into it feeding into their stories. Um, you know, you go back 30 years [00:09:00] and people were kind of scared to document their lives. I mean, currently, the Pride DNZ site has 900 items on online of of personal stories. Those are audio items, the audio items. Now, those experiences those personal stories existed well prior to to To and but where are they documented? So it just seems to me that there's a huge hole in our kind of institutional collecting [00:09:30] in terms of, um, queer existence in A and, um, I think right from the mid eighties, after homosexual law reform in 86 there has been a real groundswell of people. Um, within the rainbow communities, creating media about themselves and II. I just think that's wonderful. N is just a part of that. The next piece of audio from from pride NZ from your archive is of somebody a voice that I think quite a few people will recognise. [00:10:00] Let's have a listen to that. After those articles and truth, How did you I guess present yourself in terms of I mean, did you kind of come out and present yourself as yes, I am a lesbian? Or did you just say, Well, it's none of your business. Yeah, pretty much. Look, you know, anybody who who sees me in public, anybody who knows me, everybody knows, You know, I don't make a secret of it, but I'm not here to fuel [00:10:30] truths and come, um, I just, you know, as I've always said, I'll just go on, get on with my life. Um, but, uh, it made a huge difference for the gay community. You know, so many people over so many years have come up and said you've got no idea. You know, we were sitting at the table and mum was saying It's outrageous. How dare they and Dad were saying It's nobody's business and I finally had the opportunity to say, Well, I'm glad you think that because I am. [00:11:00] That was Marilyn Waring. Of course. When did you interview Gareth? Because that was your voice at the front. Of course it was 2012 and Marilyn was amazing. And is so much is somebody that I have so much respect for. The only woman in the national caucus in the 19 seventies, um, was completely outed by the truth newspaper in the in the late seventies. Um, and suffered, um, weeks of front page coverage from from the [00:11:30] truth. And, um, she is so resilient and has gone on to do so many amazing things. Um, these are the people that I look to, and I kind of aspire to, and I have so much admiration for is most of the material there the result of your own interviews, Gareth, there's a whole range. So, uh, there are my interviews, but I, I really love the idea of peer interviewing. So youth interviewing youth, um, elders interviewing elders. Um, because everyone sees [00:12:00] the world quite differently and the kind of questions that you ask. Um, changes. Um, depending on who you're asking them and who's asking, Um, and to actually get access to some parts of the community. You actually need that peer interviewing, you know, as a as a kind of middle aged white guy. I'm not always going to be the best person to ask the questions here, and I absolutely acknowledge that. And And I think, actually, um, the best thing to do is actually, um, do that peer interviewing. [00:12:30] Let's listen to something else. I think this is, um, Dr Susan Jones. Now, this is a Is this a church service? This was a church service, Uh, that was going to be held in pride in 2019 in Wellington. So we're talking about the 17th of March 2019. Um, on the Saturday was going to be, um, a huge, uh, queer fear out in the out in the square. Um, and it was followed by this church service. What happened on the Friday was, um, absolutely shocking [00:13:00] and shocked everyone. So where do you start? Where do you begin to unravel the events of Christchurch? 15th of March, 2019, At first I thought, changing the reflection today left out the very group whose festival is right now, the rainbow community, with its variety of sexual orientations and gender identities. And then I thought again, because [00:13:30] what happened in Christchurch is just another facet of the difficulty we all have as human beings relating to and embracing those who are other. To us, it's significant. I think, that three particular closures I heard of requested by police in the past two or three days affect groups that suffer the same circumstance in some way. They are different from the majority or the perceived norm. [00:14:00] Obviously, mosques were requested to suspend their services. The Muslim community, though not inconsiderable in numbers, is a minority in this country. And on Saturday, so too, was the Jewish synagogue asked not to meet another religious minority, and also the pride parade and the fair out in the park were cancelled. So the Muslim, the Jewish and the Rainbow communities are all [00:14:30] minorities within Western society, and that difference that minority status makes the rest of that society edgy. Did you recall that Gareth? Absolutely. It was a It was a very moving service and um, I. I just recall the shock that was going through. I think the entire country after those, uh, terror attacks, I have to say that Saint Andrews on the terrace, which is a a Presbyterian congregation [00:15:00] here in Wellington, has been so supportive of not only the Rainbow Communities, but they are a a centre for social justice. And they've been a centre for social justice for, you know, decades. Um, and the other church in Wellington is ST Peters and Willis Street. And they, um, been at the forefront of of, um, social change as well. And I just want to say one thing, if if that's OK, which was I saw the other day, the Salvation Army coming out in support [00:15:30] of banning conversion therapy. And I just think from where the Salvation Army was in the mid eighties, in terms of, um, really kind of vilifying homosexuals to where they are now is extraordinary. And it's a big shout out to the Salvation Army. Um, their recent guidelines for, um, Salvation ISS. I'll just give you a little quote. Um, salvation. ISS will continue to oppose vilification of, or discrimination against anyone [00:16:00] on the grounds of sexuality or gender salvation lists will not act directly or indirectly to encourage, refer to or engage with any other form of any form of gay conversion or reparative therapies or practises. And I just, um I never thought I'd be shouting out the Salvation Army on national radio, but, um, but II I think it's such an amazing step that they've done and, um, they should be very proud of themselves. You were recording and and sending out [00:16:30] archival material these conversations that you you cherish and you want you want to save and preserve Before the Internet era, weren't you You were sending out C DS around the world, weren't you? 19 nineties. This is Did you do it all on your own? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So So, um, 19 nineties, Um, the internet had just started and there was no audio streaming, no video streaming. The only way to disseminate information was either [00:17:00] on a cassette tape or on a CD a CD. Sending a CD across the world would be, you know, 20 or $30. And what would you put on a typical CD? Would you would people request stuff and you You'd then just go and find it and do well. But CD or cassette by cassette. Yeah, I was I was making documentaries right from the 19 nineties with with, um, queer voices. And so it was a way of getting those voices from a which have a very unique experience, um, to the rest of the world, Um, [00:17:30] often, you would send them, and you wouldn't hear anything back. Um, interestingly, last year I got an email from somebody that received an, um, a CD 20 years ago, and they wrote to me and just expressed to me how much of a beacon of hope it was to actually hear queer voices. They were in a space where, um they couldn't be themselves. They couldn't be authentically them. Where were they? They were in Arkansas and the US, Um, and it was hearing the voices [00:18:00] from New Zealand that actually gave them hope in terms of of just feeling that they weren't a freak. Like, there are other people just like me, and therefore I'm actually more normal than I thought. Just just being just just just hearing an experience reflected. And I think a lot of experiences are universal. So whether it's in, um, Arkansas or whether it's in Wellington or Christchurch. There's [00:18:30] a universal truth. Have you got time for one more? I'm looking at my producer, and he's nodding because I know you brought in something else. This is, um Now, this is the reopening from the reopening of the Rainbow Room in Parliament. I didn't know Parliament had a rainbow room. This is a really special recording. So in 2019, there was a reopening, Um, event at Parliament and the Rainbow Room is a select committee room in, um, parliament buildings. And it has rainbow flags. It has legislation, um, relating to rainbow [00:19:00] communities. And it has, uh, pictures on the wall of out proud out rainbow politicians, which is really fantastic. The reopening was attended by a whole range of people, including Sarah, Sarah McBride and Peter Tatchell. And they're both activists. Um, Sarah has subsequently become the first openly transgender state senator in the US, Um, which is, um amazing. And Peter Tatchell is is a, um, a long term, um A And [00:19:30] in this recording, they talk about the where New Zealand sits in the global scheme of of kind of Queer Rights. It is incredibly fitting that this new and improved Rainbow Room will be dedicated near the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall uprising in New York City. Because one of the many, many legacies of Stonewall is the power of an individual act to reverberate around the world. [00:20:00] And at a time when LGBT Q people find themselves under attack in far too many corners of the globe, including in my home country of the United States, the actions and the work here in the New Zealand Parliament have never been more important because for the last several decades you all have been at the forefront of the movement for the rights and dignity of LGBTQ people around the world, from marriage, equality to the globally historic election of Georgina Bayer. You [00:20:30] all have not just made change for people here in New Zealand. You have set the bar and challenged the world to live up to our highest ideals and to be our best Selves outside of these boundaries. Outside of this coastland, there isn't a person I know who is not Trans or who is not gender, non conforming or intersex. Who doesn't look to Georgina Baer as the iconic Gandhi of the movement. [00:21:00] Being the first in the world again is a remarkable achievement, and her courage, her tenacity, her authenticity transforms hearts and minds. I don't want to be melodramatic, but we know that queer kids around the world, in places that are less affirming than in New Zealand, struggle every day with anxiety, with depression, with suicidal thoughts. But we [00:21:30] know that when they see somebody in legitimate positions of power around them, they are reassured. They feel validated. They feel worthy. They feel they can aspire to something in the future. So every queer out elected politician in the newspaper on television is life affirming and to many millions of kids, that is life changing. And in many cases, that is life saving. [00:22:00] Because you see yourself as an authentic, real, legitimate person member of humanity, and you see a pathway out of the difficulties that was Peter and before that, Sarah McBride and then between me and and then I got out of the way again, and we got time for one more question. Gareth, We're talking about talking to Gareth Watkins about Pride and Z, the Rainbow Archive Audio archive That's um, now got recognition of the US Library [00:22:30] of Congress. I'm not surprised. Uh, Gareth, where do you want the archive to go? In the future? My big thing is one to have the voices, um, preserved for as long as possible. And, uh, technology is is is an amazing friend because it's allowed us to to to put the archive out into the world, But it's also very vulnerable. I mean, hard drives, crash websites go down. Um, whatever. So it's actually [00:23:00] I mean, this library of Congress, um, initiative is fantastic and is amazing. I just heard today as well that the National Library is also archiving the website, which is again really fantastic here in New Zealand. Um, the other things I'd like to see are that, um, individuals groups record their own histories and and share them and tell them in ways that are meaningful to themselves. So it's not about a centralised place collecting stories, but it's actually, [00:23:30] um however, you feel that you want to impart your history, your knowledge? Um, your voice, what do you want to leave behind? Um, whether it's through an artwork, whether it's whether it's through a, um whatever um is to encourage people to tell their own stories. Gareth, you've got as I said, Great. Here is you're a fantastic sound engineer. Where do people get the equipment? Does it matter? No. The the heart matters, [00:24:00] Um, whether it's on an iPhone, whether it's on a professional recorder, whether it's through a zoom recording, it's It's what's in your heart. That's that's what matters. Gareth. It's been lovely having you in. And thanks for bringing all that archival material as well, Thank you so much. And now I feel like I'm gonna do a normal Desmond moment, right? We'll move on to a song so you can do that with the microphones off. That's Gareth Watkins from Pride NZ Fantastic Audio Archive of New Zealand's Rainbow [00:24:30] Community. It's just got recognition by the US Library of Congress.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
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