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It's been nearly two years since same sex couples were given the right to marry in New Zealand. So far, nearly 1800 gay and lesbian couples have tied the knot and the number of civil unions each year is dwindling into double digits. This Radio New Zealand Insight programme explores how legislation lauded by some as the final frontier and the fight for rights has changed what it is to be gay, lesbian or transgender. In New Zealand, the question [00:00:30] is that the third reading of the Marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment bill will be agreed to members. The eyes are 77. The nose are 44 the Labour MP. Lewis Wall's marriage amendment bill passing its third and final reading the deciding moment of a fiery debate that played [00:01:00] out in politics, the media and for many New Zealanders across the kitchen table, sparking a rare moment within parliament. I understand no, yeah, [00:01:30] and marking a cultural turning point. Four months later, in August 2013, same sex marriage was officially legal and gay and lesbian couples started signing up to a union they fought hard to be a part of. But how has the right to wed changed things for New Zealand's queer community. I'm Alex Ashton, and this insight explores the impact of marriage equality and asks if it's made any difference to homophobic attitudes and other prejudices. Two years on [00:02:00] Alex, Nice to Meet You and Liz Dutton have been together for the best part of 20 years and live in the house they built together in Wellington. The couple had a commitment ceremony in 2003 in front of more than 100 family and friends. A couple of years later, when [00:02:30] civil unions were legalised, they got one of those. And on the 10th anniversary of that first commitment ceremony, they legally married. We hired a double decker bus and we had about 75 80 people for this one, and we we it was like a journey. So we went to meet at the bus station or the train station, and we and we didn't tell anyone what we were doing. So we just told them to wear comfortable shoes and, uh, and bring a jacket. Uh, they're one of roughly 1800 same [00:03:00] sex couples who've tied the knot so far and who now make up nearly one in every 25 marriages for Sula to and Liz Dutton married Life was no huge shift, having been in a civil union for the best part of a decade. But some things have changed. Sue and I talked a lot about what we will call each other afterwards, because I I've always called up a my partner. It was my partner before we got civil unions. It was my partner after we got civil unions. But this time it actually gave us the option. [00:03:30] And I thought we discussed it for a bit, didn't we? And then we decided that we did want to call each other wives. So that was what we did. We married and we both have wives. And I very proudly tell people now that you know, I refer to sue as my wife, you know? Oh my, you know, my wife's coming in today, You know, so on and so forth. And there's something really neat about that. Um, it makes me feel like our relationship is even more solid. How's it been today? It's been a fairly quiet day. [00:04:00] Actually, A friend of mine ended up in hospital and I went to visit her. Oh gosh, she's Sula and Liz Dutton agree. The fight for full acceptance is far from over, but they say marriage has moved things along. But what difference is it making to queer people who aren't married? There may be some kind of trickle down effects where their families are now more open to having discussions around this. But all in all, I think that marriage equality wouldn't [00:04:30] have any real tangible impacts on their day to day lives. Senor runs support groups for Queer Youth in Wellington. But there's a reason why we still run support groups. There's a reason why we still have young people approaching us, she says. Marriage is taking centre stage in the queer rights debate and pushing aside more pressing issues. I'm definitely not making the argument that we shouldn't have marriage, and it's all bad, absolutely. But I think it's really important to note that, you know, that [00:05:00] was the kind of most symbolic, easiest thing to do and how it was treated as a final frontier. Whereas there are still a lot of things that we need to kind of be addressing in more depth and one of those matters, many feel urgently needs to be addressed is mental health. The statistics relating to the queer community are alarming. A major study published by University of Auckland researchers last year found nearly 1/5 of same sex attracted young people had tried to kill themselves in the 12 months prior, a rate [00:05:30] five times higher than that of their straight peers. M Harten says while the talk is centred on wedding cakes and honeymoons, such significant mental health needs aren't being addressed. In the same year that we got marriage equality, there was actually a National Suicide Prevention Action plan published in that same year that had no mention whatsoever of our sexuality and gender diverse communities at all. So while you have politicians and the public discussing who gets access to a wedding ring, you also have the huge emission of our health and well-being needs [00:06:00] from national strategies, and this is going on at the exact same time. Cassie Harden says that invisibility leaves queer youth out in the cold and makes them a target for bullying and abuse on the street. A harsh reality for some. Well, my name is Bro Packer, and I'm a student, uh, B a student at Victoria University. At the moment, um, as well as a couple of part time jobs. You know how it is. But Broden is gay and gender queer, meaning he doesn't identify as strictly male or female. His sexuality has made him a target [00:06:30] for abuse, verbal, online and physical. Been up maybe three times. Um, just in town. And I wasn't doing anything one time. Actually. It was me and my two female friends that were, Well, they weren't as beat up as I was, but we were all kind of targeted by a group of, you know, straight males in their twenties. Um, just shouting fagged. And I went One guy got community service for about another time because I got my jaw broken from him, [00:07:00] punching me around the jaw. He went to an all boys Catholic high school. He says it had its ups and downs, and while he was bullied, it mainly happened at home through social media. Broden says same sex marriage was a starting point. But now that it's out of the spotlight, so is the ongoing struggle of queer New Zealanders. It's easy for us and straight people and just the general media to be like, OK, gay people have won. They've got what they need to be. They can be left alone now you can do whatever you want. And [00:07:30] so it kind of excuses homophobia because it's like, Well, you're equal, it's fine. I think lots of it is social. And I think the issue is for trans people and women, um, women, queers and homeless queers. And, you know, racial minority queers are entirely different issue that can't just be addressed in a marriage equality law. The same sex marriage bill followed decades of activism. Back in the 19 seventies, gay liberation was just getting underway in New Zealand. What kind of society would you like to see [00:08:00] in New Zealand for? Well, we don't look for anything specifically for gays, but just a society in which people anybody can express their sexuality, whatever it is without being hassled and put down and ridiculed for it. You know, it's a very idealistic view, but I don't think it's impossible. And I think it's the only way we're going to make the place a better place to live until homosexual law reform in 1986 sex between men was illegal. [00:08:30] That meant for most early activists, marriage wasn't even on the horizon as an option. But it wasn't an aspiration, either. Marriage, You know, the actual notion of marriage has its history in heterosexual economics, and our church sacramental is, and I suppose I'm sounding like a tired old academic. But it is so consumerist. It's so was one of the founders [00:09:00] of New Zealand's gay rights movement. We sat around, um, in the early days and talked a lot about the notion of marriage, and most of us thought, Well, you know, it's what a man and a woman does. It's not what we want to do, because why should we want parity with them? In 1973 Ms Kou was denied entry to the United States because, as a lesbian at the time she was deemed a knownn sexual deviant. Her frustration prompted her to start campaigning for gay liberation in this country. [00:09:30] About a dozen people came to the first meeting, and about 40 the next, MSU says Queer liberation has come a long way since then, she says. Same sex marriage is a triumph for those who want it, but is irrelevant to many people. What concerns me is that in the rugby clubs, in the league, clubs, in the rural communities, in the kitchen, at the back, on the down at the beach, within [00:10:00] those parts of my world, which are traditional, which are conservative, it's OK if you're like that, but you shouldn't flaunt it. Getting married is flaunting it, says Takata, or still have a long road ahead. It's taken us 40 years to get where we are now. I think for my world, for the Maori world, it will take another 40 before people [00:10:30] like my relatives will have the courage to come out because, well, then there is still the fear of losing Mana of having their virility or their masculinity. Which is so important in the performative context is a tai group [00:11:00] which bases itself on Kaha and TIA. At its weekly meeting in Wellington, its founder and chair Elizabeth told me. For some, Takata marriage has been life changing for many people. That's a step up who saw civil unions as second class or second rate, uh, legal arrangement. And so for some it's really significant. It was something that they fought hard for. They wanted in their lives. So I. I think that is a great thing, that they're able to have that [00:11:30] and and all of the legal protections and and and the status that comes with being a married person in this country. But, she says, most Takata, we didn't rush off to get married. And for the majority, very little has changed. She says Maori face racism on top of discrimination over their gender and sexuality and she says there are issues specific to a setting. Is it all right for a trans woman to do the Is it all right for our trans men to, uh, is it OK if someone's transitioning [00:12:00] inside a group to change rules? So these are those kind of really practical day to day things. There's issues around when we, if someone has, has transitioned and goes home for, is taken home for, uh, what gender do the pronouns and names do? The use, uh, how welcome people to bring the same sex both sex partners, uh, into the and into related iwi gatherings, [00:12:30] Elizabeth says doctors, teachers and authority figures still assume everyone is straight. She feels there's still huge pressure on queer people to blend in with the crowd, and many do. But for some, it's a hard task. I think, in being simple and basic, it helps get the message across. And so, with in conjunction with a friend of mine, I go out with his signs and set them up at random locations. Um, around Wellington and [00:13:00] I stand blindfolded between them with my arms spread to tell to explain to the people that I'm transgender, that I honour them and ask them to honour me and to hug me. But on the other side, I've got the information summary of information for transgender, uh, youth taken from the youth 12 report. So these are These are quite big signs. You must get a bit of attention with them. Yeah, and because I'm standing there blindfolded with, like, I'm on a cross with arm speed, inviting people to hug me. Shelley [00:13:30] Howard is a transgender woman living in the Hutt Valley just north of Wellington. She lives openly now, but that wasn't always the case. I lived a life as a normal heter normal male meeting. Society's expectations did OK at school for a part, but then I fell afoul of the system, and, uh, I ended up joining the military married three sons. It's the whole routine. Ms. Howard is sceptical about whether legislation [00:14:00] has made any difference at all for transgender people like herself. She believes same sex marriage is a win for gays and lesbians but leaves the rest of the queer community namely those outside the standard gender spectrum, to fend for themselves with the forgotten minority. But it's understandable because in some ways, because lesbianism and homosexuality are about sexuality, and it's problematic for transgender because our our issue [00:14:30] is is not sexuality. Sexuality becomes another issue later on. But recognising us first for our gender dysphoric condition is our first major step. Shelley Howard says. The ever increasing visibility of transgender people in media, including the high profile transition of the Olympic athlete Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn Jenner, is making a difference. But she says visibility is only one part of the equality equation. It's easier now for [00:15:00] transgender youth because they have a narrative at least they can identify. But the way we reach out to them is still failing them. The people who should be supporting them and and assisting and aiding them the older generations, the people and responsibility parents, counsellors, therapists, teachers. All of these people should be reliable, informed sources of advice and help to their transgender. [00:15:30] But when you end up with a principal in a prestigious school making statements that he has no homosexuals in his college, then you really have to wonder how much more we have to do. Things have not changed at the coalface, particularly for transgender, and legislation will never do that. And with us in the studio now is a spokesman for the Gay Task Force, Bill Lurgan. Good morning. Good morning. How does it feel to be legal? Well, it hasn't really sunk in yet. I suppose it feels like a [00:16:00] moderate step has been made towards a more civilised sort of country. This debate has started to change attitudes. It has started to make life better for gays, not only in law but in attitudes and attitudes is what's important. That's activist Bill Logan, speaking to Kim Hill after the homosexual law reform bill passed through parliament decriminalising consensual sex between men. He was a gay rights advocate in the build up to reform and now works as a counsellor. [00:16:30] Mr Logan says he never envisaged queer people achieving the acceptance they experience today, let alone being able to marry widespread acceptance among gay men and liberals that it should be decriminalised. But no one thought no one that I ever came across thought of the possibility of marriage as an option. Indeed, I was asked at one point in some select committee in [00:17:00] parliament would we be pushing for marriage next as if this was a terrible thing, the next step and I was honestly able to say no, it was not an option. Bill Logan says each piece of legislation homosexual law, reform, civil unions and, most recently, marriage is a small victory for the rights movement. He says there's some connection between the law and people's attitudes, but the two things don't move at the same pace. And like Shelley Howard, he [00:17:30] believes Trans people face some of the biggest walls in the battle for acceptance. As a counsellor, he's actually seeing more young people kicked out of home when they come out as transgender. Their parents would be shocked if anyone else kicked their kids out, but they just have a huge difficulty in accepting that their little Johnny wants to be called Mary, and they will come back if they accept themselves as Johnny, give them two years and [00:18:00] they'll accept that little Johnny is Mary. But two years is a long time for a 15 year old, and in the meantime, the kid goes through a period of suicidality, and that's very, very dangerous. Time for the debate over same sex marriage put a media spotlight on queer issues, but some say now that conversation is over. It's hard to get another one going along. There is, is my wall of queer theory really and feminist theory? Uh, where the much [00:18:30] of academic work that's been written on lesbian and gay politics and its history. We've almost got 22 walls. That's right. That's right. Yeah, it's it's certainly, um, there's still plenty being written. Yeah. Anita Brady is a senior media studies lecturer at Victoria University, specialising in gender and sexuality in the media, she says the focus on queer issues is largely dissolved in the two years since the Marriage Amendment act, with good and bad implications. It removes a forum for good and bad things, so it removes the [00:19:00] forum, the pub a public forum where people can express often deeply problematic homophobic views and in the interest of debate that that so saying that you know that gay people getting married is like people marrying their dogs, for example, has a public forum. Once that legislation get gets passed, that forum disappears, and it no longer is the legitimacy of gay, lesbian and gay people to be alive. Um, doesn't doesn't get to, you know, it doesn't have the air time, um, that it used to. But of course, at the same time, what it also does is it [00:19:30] tends to mean that ongoing issues that aren't solved by, um the passing of legislation may lose their air time as well and their legitimacy, Doctor Brady says. When queer issues do make the news, it often exposes homophobia bubbling just below the surface. The out in the field survey that was released earlier this year, which was a national, uh, International, I should say survey of Western speaking countries dealing with and talking about issues of Homo homophobia in sport and 80% there was a huge, relatively [00:20:00] large anyway sample group from New Zealand. I think 650 participants. 80% of lesbian and gay people have experienced homophobia in sports situations. I mean that that's a phenomenally large number. And if you think about how important sport is in New Zealand, that's that's important to to acknowledge that two years after marriage equality that that's still an incredibly high figure. So that everyday experience of homophobia, I think, is shifting. It's changing. The acceptability of it is changing, but it's certainly not over yet. [00:20:30] Anita Brady says. Not everyone thinks marriage was the right direction for Queer Rights, she says. There's a risk that pushing so hard for marriage equality invalidates the relationships of people who choose not to marry when lesbian and gay activists have been fighting for centuries against certainly for decades, anyway, against the hierarchy, a hierarchy of relationships. I think we have to be careful in holding marriage up as the epitome of love that we don't simultaneously devalue [00:21:00] those people who choose not to who don't want to get married, who have other forms of relationships. So I think it's important to remember the possibility of difference that LGBT politics offers. The dog, the dog Hoffman and Nicola Wood have been together for nine years and in a civil union for five. But they're not married. It's interesting because we kind of joked about it when we were watching because we watched it on Parliament, [00:21:30] you know, and it went through, and then we were kind of like, Oh, should we upgrade? Because it kind of feels a bit like it is a bit of an upgrade because I guess then there's that it's the same as, um, heterosexual couples, but we've never done anything about it. Um, we've lost more out of laziness than anything we have intended on doing it on our fifth anniversary. And, um because we got a civil union in January, we just sort of went to the summer holidays and then never got round to it and then worked out that you had to do everything in advance. It's just [00:22:00] a case. We just haven't got to it yet. The pair have slightly different views on marriage as a feminist legs. Hoffman never thought she'd marry, but Nicola Wood always saw herself heading down the aisle. They say it's nice to have the option there, but it doesn't equate to widespread acceptance of queer relationships, Li Hoffman says. That's still decades away. Great that there's the option. I think that's a lot of people fought for the equality, that it's about equality. But we've still got a long way to go. You know, we still when we're sort of out on a Saturday night holding hands down the street, we still [00:22:30] get the odd remark and it's kind of like we've still got a long way to go. This is just one step. I see. It's kind of like women with the vote we didn't suddenly, you know, stop fighting for our rights just because, uh, we got the vote. So I sort of see it as the same thing. We got along lots of issues in our community to still fight for and work on. Nicola Wood says the perception that marriage equality has drastically changed the lives of queer people could actually work against them. The problem is is that when something becomes mainstream, so you see plenty of, um, gay [00:23:00] personalities on TV and characters and that sort of thing. It's almost like you're given this false sense that everything's all right, Jack and then as you go through school and suddenly the bullying starts and you and you sort of think, Oh, well, it's supposed to be all fine and you realise that that your your neighbor's dad doesn't like anything to do with you and that sort of thing. I think it it may almost hit this next generation harder. So we almost thought I expected the bullying. I expect the hard knocks. I expect the questioning from parents and then the next generation to come through is thinking it's gonna be fine, and [00:23:30] I almost feel sorry for them having to come through in that environment. In the debate over same sex marriage, religious views were central to many of those opposed to the change. Many cited core Christian values, but churches themselves present a far from universal view, and this is the church. So it's a 1922 building category one historic place, and, uh, in 2005, the building was in need of desperate [00:24:00] repair, and we have repaired it. So it has been fully restored and is a safe, accessible, beautiful building. Saint Andrews on the terrace is a Presbyterian church that sits about 100 metres from parliament in central Wellington. It's outspoken on its stance of supporting same sex marriage. Despite church leaders consistently voting to uphold a ban on ministers performing such ceremonies. The parish council's convenor, Sandra Kirby, says two years on the issue [00:24:30] is still dividing the church. Each of the General Assembly since 1991 have been tense. When these issues have been discussed, we believe they're not going to go away until they're resolved and that the tension is part of us not being able to be in a place where all are able to see things equally and resolved. What would that mean? Well, for us resolved would mean that the ministers who want to be able to conduct same sex marriages were able to do so. In our ideal world. [00:25:00] That might be all churches, but resolved would actually be each church being able to live to its values. In testimony, Sandra Kirby believes one day the Christian church will become more progressive on same sex marriage, and she hopes it will be within her lifetime. I have to believe that yes, I do. Um, I take some heart in that there have been other human rights, um, challenges that churches have stood up to slavery is probably a really good one. Status of women, Um, in [00:25:30] my lifetime, um, so churches can and do change. Um, it's a bit of shame that the church is behind the the society in this, but I believe it will catch up. In the meantime, queer rights advocates aren't putting up their feet. Hang out here and this is where we usually run out after school groups. Nice having it right in the middle of the city, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. And it's really good because then people can just cruise in if they're still, you know, in the closet or they don't want to walk past people that they know they can just kind of duck down and join the group. Cassie [00:26:00] Harten says. There's no time to be complacent. There's a whole range of different things that can take place within the school, the the community, even within sports teams within churches, there's a lot of different things that can be kind of going on, but right now it's a very under resourced and under recognised area in terms of the ways that we can get funding and the legitimacy that is given to our work. Cassie would like sexuality and gender education embedded early on in [00:26:30] the school curriculum and continued throughout the school system. I'm Alex Ashton, and that's insight for this week. If you'd like to share your thoughts on this programme, you can send an email to insight at radio NZ dot co dot NZ. Our Twitter handle is RNZ underscore Insight. I wrote and presented that programme. It was produced by Philippa Tolley with technical production by STEVE Bar.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
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