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It's 25 years almost to the day since the homosexual law reform bill was tumultuously passed into law by the New Zealand parliament in a conscience vote that revealed much about those who voted both for and against and that law change was a long time. Coming up until 18 86 the crime of anal sex, or buggery, as it was termed, was punishable by death in New Zealand. Death, death, death a full five years after Britain flogging remained on the books until the late 19 fifties. And it was only in 1961 [00:00:30] that the Crimes Act removed life imprisonment for sodomy. So with that history of intolerance, it's perhaps not surprising that the 1986 homosexual law reform bill unleashed an intense debate between those supporting the human rights of homosexuals and those determined to see homosexual acts remain a crime. Just how intense that debate is was is nicely captured in this little montage of historical recordings compiled by Radio New Zealand's Gareth Watkins. If this bill is passed in its present [00:01:00] form, homosexuals from overseas will come to New Zealand in their thousands. New Zealand will be looked upon as the matter for homosexuality, for sodomy. What an attraction it is going to be. To them, the minister of tourism be able to advertise New Zealand to homosexuals throughout the world. Come to New Zealand for sun, for sun, for scenery and safe sodomy. The glass doors opened at the front [00:01:30] of the Citadel, and several Army men came out. One pushed the press photographer's camera into his face while another tried to keep him out of the way. So not only are Salvation Army peddling petitions of hate, but they're now assaulting reporters. The life is Mr Right mine, Close says. Where do you come from? [00:02:00] I don't love homosexuals. As far as I'm concerned, You five per cent normal people stand out. Yeah, I myself No, bye. Thanks. Good thing [00:02:30] there is a had no sex. Yeah, Mike is all right. Thank you. Do we see concerned Christians hiring town halls to discuss the problems of the alienation of Children of our society or violence within the family? And we do not see this happening. And we question the motive [00:03:00] for their concern. I believe their concern is founded on irrational fear and ignorance. Keith Hay is the organiser of the petition and has clearly stated in the New Zealand Times on the seventh of April that he does not know anything about homosexuality. However, this man is prepared and his ignorance to organise a nationwide [00:03:30] campaign against a group of people whom he knows nothing about. He condemns such an action. We are citizens of this country. We demand our rights. They're citizens of New Zealand. The bill condemn the petition, the petition that is based on ignorance. [00:04:00] Don't circulate it. Don't sign it. If you have already signed it spray and ask to have your name alone. He's not too late. Support the bill ClA Part here and right. It's 16 months since Wellington Central MP Fran Wilde introduced the Homosexual Law Reform bill, and it's been a passionate, lengthy debate. The original bill set out not only to legalise sodomy but also to remove discrimination against homosexuals. [00:04:30] That part of the bill, however, was defeated along the way, and the age of consent became the central focus in recent months. As late as last night, Hawke's Bay MP Bill Sutton tried unsuccessfully to have the bill sent back to committee stages for consideration of 18 as the age of consent. Opposition deputy leader George Gere led off last night's crucial debate, explaining he could not vote against the bill but had struggled to vote for it because of the age of consent being set at 16. There are some aspects of abstention that are [00:05:00] appealing. But in the final analysis, a vote for abstention, I reasoned, was passing the responsibility over to others and that I'm not prepared to do so. I was presented with what I feel is a difficult choice between two two propositions, neither of which I like, but one of which I like less than the other. So, sir, I will when the vote is taken, votes for the bill. But I grant you with considerable [00:05:30] reluctance. Mr. Gere's pro reform declaration led to an attack from one of his own caucus, W a MP John Banks, whose response typified divisions within Parliament, will be remembered as a sad and sickening day for New Zealand. A sad and sickening day for New Zealand. A very black cloud hangs over this parliament tonight, and those members [00:06:00] that wheel themselves through the doors of the eyes lobby voting for legalised sodomy at the age of 16 should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. The final vote was 49 in favour of the bill, 44 against a majority of five. Francois, the bill's promoter, says getting the bill through Parliament has not won all the battles for the homosexual community. I think there has been a change of attitudes during the bill. The Hale polls have shown increasing support for [00:06:30] the bill as the, uh, last year or so have gone on. But there is still a proportion of New Zealanders who will vilify and hate homosexual people. And I think that as a community, that is not a healthy outlook. And we should try and educate people, um, to respect differences. You lost part two of the bill fairly early on, and that was the anti discrimination part. How significant was that? That was significant. It applied, of course, not just to gay men, but to [00:07:00] lesbian women. And I was very sad that we lost that, Um, I suspect some people voted against it simply to provide themselves with a little bit of political insurance, so they felt they could vote for part one of the bill. The strain been like for you personally over the months. And where do you go from here? Oh, well, it's been a terrible strain to tell you the truth, but I go now back to being the member for Wellington Central and the Government. We've been trying to put a bit more time into other issues. I'm certainly not contemplating another exercise [00:07:30] of this nature in the near future. Did you, at any stage doubt that it was all worthwhile? No, I didn't doubt. But sometimes I wondered what, um, insanity had caused me to actually try to do it in the first place. I must admit, there were times when I thought I must have been mad to take it on, but I didn't doubt that I should have taken it on. And that was a very youthful sounding former Wellington Central MP Fran Wilde, ending that montage of historical recordings from the Lesbian Gay Archives of New Zealand. The recordings were [00:08:00] by Peter Knowland and Wellington Access radio, Gay BC and Lesbian radio. So 25 years on, how does Fran wild feel about it all? Earlier this week, I asked her how the bill came about and why she thought it was successful when earlier attempts had ended in failure. Well, the attempts before this were, um Generally, my understanding is with an age of consent of 21 for a start, and they probably didn't have much of a campaign run for them in any event [00:08:30] from the parliamentary end. Uh, so when I was campaigning in 1981 for Wellington Central, I was lobbied, as we're all candidates by the people from the gay community, saying, Would you support a change of law? And I said, Of course I would. I think it's rather a large black hole in our human rights legislation. And then the second question was, would you be interested in introducing a bill, you know, in the absence of anyone else? And I just [00:09:00] said, Oh, well, I hadn't actually thought about that. But I said, I guess I guess I'd be happy to do it if I needed to Wasn't a burning issue for you at the time. It wasn't It wasn't something I campaigned on. It was something I was asked about during the campaign, and I said I would support it. And so after the election, um, straight back to me, well, actually, the issue was nobody else would support it and agree to run a campaign for it. The gay groups were very clear that they needed equality [00:09:30] under the law. And in fact, the first bill I looked at was called the Equality Bill, and it wasn't the same as the one that finally got passed. It got, I suppose, torpedoed for a number of reasons, which are probably a bit complex now, but it didn't didn't get anywhere. And so the homosexual law Reform bill was then drafted as the second attempt at it. And that's basically what was passed. Except we lost part two of that, which was the [00:10:00] amendments to the Human Rights Act? Yes, there were. Well, there were two elements to your bill, uh, the decriminalisation of male homosexuality that's fairly straightforward. And the protection from discrimination. All this was subsequently built into the Human Rights Rights Act in 1993. Indeed, and in fact, I think it would be fair to say that in voting down part two of the bill, some of the [00:10:30] MP S were taking out a little bit of insurance what they thought was political insurance. So they knew we had to decriminalise uh, but they were saying, Well, changing the Human Rights Act is just going a bit too far. And I think that was like having a dollar each way with the constituency. In fact, by the time we got to this third reading, um, there had been a huge campaign with, um, significant public debate and a lot of information [00:11:00] given out, which was quite educational. And I think by that stage, society had moved considerably from probably a position of Oh, this is a bit scary. And we're not sure to saying, Look, we just got to get this through, so I'm not sure that the MP S needed that insurance at that stage, but some of them would have thought they did in their electorates. I guess for some people that the notion that what people did in their in their spare time, um wasn't their business. So therefore yes, decriminalisation seemed to be OK, [00:11:30] but actually, having the law defend the right, uh, and the right to not be discriminated against because of that was obviously the big leap that including a number of MP S, couldn't quite make. That is correct. Although As I said, I think there were probably some who knew that it was pretty difficult to decriminalise and then say, Well, you, you nonetheless you can still discriminate against this group. But they chose [00:12:00] to have that dollar each way, and I guess some of them were genuine in their belief that what people do in in their own privacy is their business. But, you know, they they didn't want to be forced to support as they saw it. Some behaviour they didn't agree with. However, as you point out very soon after, I mean within years, that was changed anyway, So it all becomes, um, a bit questioning. Now, this was to be the end of Western civilization, [00:12:30] and the sky was going to collapse. Fall in. Um, everything's terrible things were going to happen. Uh, and they haven't. And in fact, um, some probably some very good things have happened as a result of this. The fact of the age minimum age 16 being the age of consent was clearly too much for some people. I mean, George Gere agonised over this, uh, and thought this was wrong and wavered. Uh, as I understand it, uh, he was a number of, um, members [00:13:00] on both sides who wavered because of that. But he finally finally voted for it. But I think what he said with a heavy heart, well, I would. I, I must say it was interesting that people who thought that girls were old enough or mature enough if you want to have sex at 16, um called all boys as long as though it was with, um each other. But there there was no room for gay sex at that age. And the certainly the gay and lesbian community were absolutely focused on the fact that it had to be equality [00:13:30] under the law. And they were right. Um, the interesting thing about the age of consent is that in the committee stages stage, uh, when we were debating that clause, some of the most vehement antagonists who were absolutely against any law change at all voted for 16 for an age of consent because they believed that they would sink the bill. Yes, they said, no one in their right mind would possibly vote in the third reading for an for an age of consent of 16. So they voted for 16, [00:14:00] which amazed me because we then knew we just that was the next political hurdle. But but we had a pretty strong chance of getting that. The opposition to it was vehement, and it was consistent. And it was loud, Uh, how did you deal with that at the time? Can you remember with great difficulty? Um, nice letters? Ah, yes. I had the all the the death threats, the threats to me. My person, Um, I was worried about my kids. I have to say, [00:14:30] I must say the police were very good. Um, and all my staff were trained to detect litter bombs, et cetera, but it was very nasty. And in fact, as the campaign went on, it became clear that we had to pass this bill because it was actually more of a parliamentary vote on a whole lot of other values in our society, too. And if we had failed, it wouldn't have just been the gay community that was was, um, would have been under pressure from [00:15:00] the, uh, radical fundamentalists who are opposing this. It would have been a whole lot of other rights that we had won and that really, nowadays are regarded as so basic that nobody talks about them anymore because that's just the way things should be. But then, uh, we had major opposition, um, from extreme religious fundamentalists in particular, and it was quite a dangerous period, I think for our society, which has always been reasonably liberal, and and [00:15:30] this was a challenge to that, uh, to the authenticity of that value system. Uh, so it was a hard campaign and the it was a very big campaign. We ran a huge campaign, we being me and the and my colleagues in parliament, but particularly the gay, gay and lesbian community right around the country, and many, many other supportive New Zealanders who weren't gay. Many of them had, you know, they they just did it because it was the right thing to do. So even [00:16:00] though it was hard for me, I think the ones who were who found it the most difficult were the gay men who came out during that period. I knew that visibility was really important, and it was a pretty big ask um, for them to say, Look, guys, you're criminals now under the law, and you're subject to a lot of discrimination or you would be if people knew who you were. But we need some visibility so that your fellow Kiwis can see that you're just ordinary people. And this is not [00:16:30] a threat to our society or our value system or the family or anything like that. And many, many people came out during that campaign and they were very brave. Absolutely. If it had failed, they would. They would have been very vulnerable and and probably would have paid a high price. That was Fran Wilde, former MP for Wellington Central, whose private member's homosexual law reform bill was passed into law 25 years ago. And, [00:17:00] as she pointed out, the gay men and women who campaigned for the bill did so at very real risk to themselves and their futures within a society with deep misgivings about the issue. Bill Logan was one of those who stood up and spoke out, and earlier this week Jeremy Rose caught up with the Wellington councillor and celebrant and asked him how he first became involved in gay activism. I guess it was a consequence of coming to terms with the fact that I was gay, Um, which I did rather late. Um, I was sort of 30 [00:17:30] or something like that. Before I face up to the fact that I was gay, I'd hidden from my own gayness, uh, so that I wasn't even conscious of it. I think that, you know, if I look back into my life, I can see moments in which I was given clear signals that if I were gay, it would be a disaster. And, uh, yeah, so I I married, uh, luckily, perhaps didn't have Children. Uh, and it wasn't until I was [00:18:00] Yeah, roughly 30. And so about when is then that this would have been, say, 1979. So well before the homosexual law reform got to parliament that there was already activism beginning to happen. Yeah, well, there's been there's been activism all along, Um, and particularly after the, uh, wolfenden report in England which came down with recommendations to legalise homosexuality in private between [00:18:30] consenting adults. Uh, that led to a rethinking of strategies in a small group of liberals and academics and gave gay men a sense that there was some chance of a law change. And that goes back, I think, to the late fifties. Uh, at some point, uh, there was a homosexual law reform set up [00:19:00] in New Zealand was set up, uh, on the initiative of of a group within a social club for homosexual men. And they developed an alliance with liberal academics who agreed with some sort of homosexual law reform. So that was a very conservative tactic in a way of going very gently of not wouldn't be possible for any anyone who was homosexual to be a spokesperson [00:19:30] for that group, but, um, a sense of the possibility of change, uh, and then with, or things like women's liberation and the anti-war movement and so on. In the late sixties and early seventies, there was gradually the development of a more activist stream of gay politics, particularly after the stone stonewall riots, which were probably, um, 1969 in, [00:20:00] uh in New York. And so you get a AAA much greater, more radical activism, Um, and then various attempts to change the law in New Zealand. And you were a radical activist back in those days in the sixties and that but do you remember? I mean, you mentioned that there was the odd occasion where you had a glimpse that you might have been gay, you had a feeling. But, you know, what was it like at school in the sixties when you were at school, Were you aware that there were gay people, [00:20:30] or was it completely hidden? I mean, I remember one or two conversations with people about the fact that there were such things as homosexuals. Um, I remember one conversation where my mate said, Yeah, they're mostly French. I think, Um, you know, it was something that was thought of to be incredibly other, uh and yeah, I didn't really have any sense of it, but yeah, at the same time. [00:21:00] Uh, I remember when we were really young, like eight or nine. It was pretty normal for boys to wander around the playground with their arms over each other's shoulders. And then perhaps when you were a little bit older, that wasn't allowed any longer. For reasons which weren't stated or anything, it just stopped happening. That's an interesting thing, though, because when when I was in China in the late eighties, [00:21:30] you would see soldiers walking down the road holding hands and you thought, My God, this place is liberated. But then you realise that it was the fact that it was so homophobic that the very idea that they could be homosexuals was just ridiculous, right? But it's interesting because when I was, say, 12 in in what was then form two, I guess, um, I was standing with an older, uh, older woman teacher and we were seeing these youngsters [00:22:00] with their arms around each other's shoulders. And this this teacher said, That's disgusting, Bill, isn't it? And it had never occurred to me before that this this was disgusting. II I didn't say a word. Um, it was clearly something that I had to had to understand better. Uh and I think that taught me or started to teach me always one element of teaching me that homosexuality was bad before I even had a word, [00:22:30] uh, for it. And that feeling continued despite the fact that you were mixing in, as I said earlier, kind of radical circles. I mean, you ran a left wing bookshop in the in the seventies. You you were part of a group that sorts of as revolutionary. But you still felt that being gay would be a problem. Yeah, I mean, I knew one or two people who were gay. Uh, I certainly stood believed that, uh, there should be no law [00:23:00] against homosexuality. Uh, by the time I had sufficient awareness to, you know, by the time I was at university or something. Um, but the idea of being gay myself was was very scary, I think. And tell me about your involvement in the campaign for law reform. How did that come about? And and just Yeah, what was it like? Actually, when I had my first conversation with my mother, um, about [00:23:30] the fact that I was gay I I remember her saying, because she knew me as a radical activist and she said, Well, you'll have to go on and get the law changed, won't you? If this is a normal thing in my life to, uh, get get involved in anything that, uh, involved me or seemed important to me at a political level, Uh, I had a bookshop at that stage. A political bookshop. Uh, and I had I. I was selling gay [00:24:00] books. That bookshop became a bit of a social centre for, uh, gay men in particular. I was also involved in, uh, the gay switchboard, which was, uh, uh, information and kind of counselling, peer counselling kind of group. And also in a gay community centre. And so these were bases from which there were all sorts of talk about law, change, [00:24:30] possibilities and so on. And so I mean, it was illegal. How much was that law? Symbolic? More than actually something which the police ever enforced. Well, it would be enforced when there were complaints. Uh, and the complaints could come in a lot of different ways. So if parents didn't like a relationship that a son was getting into, even if the son was a quite mature age, [00:25:00] the parents could make a complaint to the police, and that would be investigated. Um, so it it there was something arbitrary about it. And then even if there wasn't a prosecution, the police could use the fact of the law to to push people a bit to push them in respect of, uh, their sexual behaviour. You know, if you if [00:25:30] you have any other men coming to your home, we're going to intervene. Kind of, uh, statements to just the ordinary bullying that you might expect from a very male, very male centred, uh, police force, which was not not particularly enlightened. There was a certain amount of bullying, a certain amount of, uh, homophobia that was in the air, uh, in that situation. And then, uh, there were there was, for [00:26:00] example, a gay sauna in Wellington. And that, I remember, was raided all well into the 19 eighties by police. Um, so you know, the the there were real. It was a really different legal climate that exists now, So that brings us to 1986 and the homosexual law reform. Do you remember how you got involved? I remember that Fran was being [00:26:30] a politician. Uh, her job is to get votes. And she approached the gay community through me. In fact, before, uh, the election. What was that? In 1984 for support of the gay community. This big meeting, uh, in Wellington with lesbians, gay men, and Fran, Uh, and she said that she wouldn't guarantee to introduce a bill, But if the climate seemed right to her, uh, after [00:27:00] her election, she would, uh, And then after that election, uh, we had another meeting. Uh, and, uh, we talked a little bit with her and talked a little bit about the kind of law that she would, uh, possibly, uh, introduce. And then she made contacts with gay groups in Auckland and elsewhere. So there was, um, an interaction between between Fran and gay and lesbian communities around around [00:27:30] the country To do that a a And then during the actual after the introduction of the bill, of course, there was this massive public debate which, well, it wasn't just the gay community, it was. Everyone got involved. And then were you surprised by the ferocity of that debate? Because when you listen back to the audio from that time and you hear the norm, Joneses and and John Banks is talking, it is passionate, [00:28:00] and it is hate filled. No, not not at all. I mean, I had grown up in the fear of something. That was what I was afraid of. Um, and I think that all of us, sometimes it was a particular thing, which was particularly upsetting. But it was the upset, the the distress, the and and the hatred that we we had grown up around us. You know, we actually we invited John banks to come on to the programme and to talk about [00:28:30] it because, you know, since then he's been to the big gay out, and he seems to have had this journey where he's he's gone from that ferociously anti gay and and very much against the law to courting the gay vote. Sadly, he he declined. He said, Look, it's 25 years ago and, um, things have moved on and really, I don't want to talk about it. Who's interested in that? And he even said, told me at the time he was standing on a farm in and, um, there was 35,000 dairy cows. That's the type of story [00:29:00] he wants to talk about. You know, that's what he said, looking back and and that intensity of the feeling. I mean, was it simply politics? Were they going for votes? Uh, I'm sure that politicians go for votes, and some of it was simply politics, and I don't know what is really in the head of John Banks. Perhaps he convinces himself with his own rhetoric, but to the extent that he's going for votes, he's responding to something that's very real in the [00:29:30] community. uh, the truth is that that homophobia was at street level, too. Uh, and I know I got rocks thrown on the top of my house and, uh, things like that during the campaign. Uh, other people got far worse. Um, two people that I knew personally got beaten up, uh, in ways which changed their lives permanently. One very old man [00:30:00] who lost his independence as a result of being beaten up, uh, during that period by homophobes and one young man who was beaten up and badly injured, uh, and has never been the same again. I mean, he's lived an independent and worthwhile life, but, um, not with the physical strength that might be expected. You know, there's permanent, uh, damage. I mean, it does feel like something other than when we think of sexism. [00:30:30] When we think of a lot of forms of racism, there's a kind of paternalism to them. There's a a thought that these people are lesser beings than than us. But with some of that homophobia, it was more akin to something like anti Semitism, this hatred of the other. How have things changed since since then? I mean, we certainly don't hear that type of stuff in the media anymore. There was during that 16 months while the bill was in parliament. This huge debate and part [00:31:00] of that was a massive coming out process by lesbians and gay men, Uh, two families and bosses and sports teams and in the pub so that over a period of time, quite a high proportion of gay people, uh, revealed themselves. And so people found they knew they had known forever. Uh, gay people and [00:31:30] they Yeah, it wasn't they weren't. You know, it wasn't such a thing to be afraid of. And and then there were these, like, day after day in the newspaper and on television. There'd be items, uh, about the debate or, um, people taking positions on the BA debate or things that we managed to, uh, encourage newspapers to publish, you know, biographical stories of different people who had been successful or, um, in other way, in other ways. [00:32:00] Uh, engaging, uh, so that there was this. There's some change around in in the culture with regard to gayness and a Dimi of fears. It was a remarkable time for social change in respect of sexual sexuality in General, I think. And if you compare now, I mean most things have happened. In a sense. We we've had homosexual law reform. In [00:32:30] 1993 they changed the Human Rights Act 2005. You get civil unions, maybe not marriage, but basically the same thing. How much more is there to be done? Well, I think it's interesting. I mean, I. I have no particular brief for for marriage. I'm not sure that it's an institution the state should get involved in at all. Might be better to simply repeal the marriage act. You are a celebrant. I think I'm prepared to. I'm prepared to to marry people or give people civil unions. [00:33:00] And but I I don't see why the state should be involved in it. Um, that seems seems a bit superfluous, really. But if the state is going to say that some people can get married, I think it's outrageous that other people cannot get married. And the fact that there is this difference in in an in an institution, which is said to be very important, you know, we we we say that marriage is important. Uh, but, [00:33:30] um and that's why they didn't want to give gay the opportunity to marry. What do you think are the major challenges going into the future? I mean, what? There's two things which, which which are seem important to me. Schools. High schools are horrible places on the whole for queers, and that's because they do not take seriously their responsibility, [00:34:00] uh, to provide a safe place for all their students to be educated. There are exceptions to that. There are some a few very good schools. But in a climate where kids are learning about their own sexuality, there is likely to be some bullying and a school without a strategy to deal [00:34:30] with. Bullying on uh, homophobic grounds is dangerous and is leading to depression suicide among kids. You can't do the work without a place where in schools where kids feel that they can escape from that homophobia and where they can start to fight against homophobia. I guess there's another [00:35:00] set of things which is a change from the world that I was brought up and and that is that there are a whole lot of other ways of being non straight that are becoming more and more frequently expressed more and more frequently, uh, talked about and so on. So there's there's a lot more, uh uh, trans people, [00:35:30] uh, young Trans people who are experimenting with their gender or changing gender, and and this is something which we've got to give a lot of attention to. That was Bill Logan, who played an active role in the campaign that saw the Homosexual law reform bill become law 25 years ago. And as Bill was saying, there's one of the one of the most of the most noticeable changes since the passing of the act is the growing visibility of people [00:36:00] who identify as transgender. Felicia Brown Acton is a professional Polynesian entertainer and coordinates the New Zealand AIDS Foundation's HIV prevention programme in the South Pacific. She identifies as a cook Island, Samoan and and as and the traditional terms for transgender people in Samoa and Tonga. Earlier this week, Jeremy Rose asked Felicia when she first realised her gender defied easy [00:36:30] categorization. My first day at school when I went to school and I was faced with the boy's toilets and the female toilets and, you know, I watched all the boys go into one toilet and all the girls going to the other. So I thought, Well, I'm a girl, so I'm going into the female's toilets. And it wasn't the reality. Didn't actually, you know, I mean, as a five year old, it still didn't dawn on me Exactly why III I was different or it didn't come to that conclusion at that point in time. But when the teacher actually pulled [00:37:00] me by the scruff of my collar and said, You can't go into the toilet because you are not a female, you are a boy. And you know, I was distraught. My mother had to come and pick me up from school, and I guess, actually, in terms of identifying to to my cultural terms, I mean, I was quite fortunate that we went back to the to every year, and I spent a lot of time in the Pacific growing up. Um, and I was lucky that those are the only terms that I knew of which [00:37:30] were my cultural identity terms. I mean, I didn't actually understand what gay or lesbian or bisexual transgender was until I was probably around about 18 or 19 when I hit the nightclub scene. and you've lived in a lot of different countries. How How do they compare? As far as being a transsexual in those countries, I mean, have you faced discrimination? Well, not discrimination, I guess. More so than violence. But, I mean, I guess it's, [00:38:00] I guess if you're in a place at the wrong time IE in a nightclub where people have, uh, you know, a drinking alcohol. Those are sort of the only times that I have actually faced some form of violence or discrimination against who I am as an individual. And a lot of that comes down to ignorance and also because they're blurred with or mad with, um with, um, alcohol that, um, that sort of factored into to part of the issue. But, you know, um, I think [00:38:30] in countries, especially particularly Melanesian countries, there is a lot of discrimination and violence. Um, obviously because of their traditional and cultural beliefs. But personally, I think for me only those are the only instances that I've actually faced some form of violence or discrimination. I've probably faced it a lot more in westernised countries than I have in the Pacific. Or what is the situation in you know, in New Zealand, for example. Well, I think because we tend to be be be defined by so many [00:39:00] labels and categories and boxes and whatever you want to call them, you know, going into a woman's store, trying on clothing, public transport, legal documentation, you know, calling customer services and or going through drive through where you're not face to face with people and people you know, referring to as sir. And and I'm not probably the most, um, masculine looking transgender person. But you still do get people that pinpoint you and pick you out. [00:39:30] And, you know, they often would call you names or what have you not, but I mean, I guess, um, the older I get, um, the easier it has become for me. But, I mean, there has, I think every, um, gay lesbian transgender person has lived some form of ridicule or or discrimination or name calling or or form of violence throughout their lives. And these are key things, especially around the law reform and 25 years of it in New Zealand that, um, [00:40:00] it remains in place and that there are actually laws that protect people because especially the LGBT communities in New Zealand. Because if those laws were factored and law reform didn't happen, then there probably would be a lot more senseless murders and crimes of violence against, um, these types of people, people like myself. How difficult was it you mentioned at five. And so? So it became an issue from your first day at school? Literally. But how difficult was it going through the school system? Oh, I had no support. There were no support services [00:40:30] for anybody like me. You know, I. I practically went through my whole high school, um, life wearing a hoodie because I didn't want people looking at me because I felt like they didn't understand me or, you know, and nobody could support me and I. I went from school to school, to school, to school, and there was honestly no support. Nobody understood who I was. It wasn't actually until I in my teenage years started going to nightclubs. And even though nightclubs back then, you had to be 21. But [00:41:00] I, I was hitting nightclubs at quite an early age. Um, that I actually started to find support systems within within communities like the transgender community or the community, Um, and being a person and the only transsexual or out there in in in the open, you know, I had no support systems. I mean, I got what I got from my family who were very supportive, but in terms of actually understanding me, understanding what I was all about or having a similarity [00:41:30] with other people similar to myself, you know, that's kind of really where I found support systems and actually started to understand my identity in general. And that identity is a very Pacific identity, and you've been working in the South Pacific. What is the situation? I mean, there's been progress towards law reform in Samoa, for example. Currently, um, homosexuality is illegal in Samoa. It's quite odd considering Samoan culture is historically tolerant of homosexuality [00:42:00] in general. The association is actually proposing for change on the Crimes Ordinance Act to legalise certain activities they see as infringing on the human rights this year, and they had a two day conference to explain to its members why they have submitted for some changes. The association aimed at amendments to laws against some sodomy, uh, indecent acts between males and fe also female impersonation, among others. Um, the association [00:42:30] submission also, um, will be made with the law reform Commission, who they have consulted with, um, and currently finalise. Um I think the final documents which will be sitting with parliament to actually, um, ratify and revise and what have you not and move forward with the new law for? For the listeners, What is a Well, I'll give you a snippet out of the gay travel guide on the Internet about the definition of, um, what [00:43:00] is And then I'll give you mine. According to Gay Travel Guide, which is per country per country, giving people obviously who are who are, um, from the LGBT Rainbow family and it states in particular. There is a tradition of raising some boys in a family as a girl in order to play an important domestic role in Samoan life. Such transvestite males are known as, but their role does not easily [00:43:30] equate with Western gayness. This tradition means that there is widespread acceptance of the transgendered Now, I actually would differ with that example of what is first and foremost is a Samoan. The actual term has history within the language, so dating back before colonisation. There was an actual term that defined a group of of individuals, um, within [00:44:00] their language within their society or village placement back in those times. Um, so to actually refer to them with medical terms is actually something that confuses a lot of people, Um, and trying to fit them in with western categories. It actually doesn't actually explain truly who are in general. They actually do have a place in society. The Prime Minister, in fact, is the patron I think of the society. [00:44:30] I mean, he's also a very proud patron of of this association for he, um, in his opening address this year at the, uh, national vocational training, she spoke about the feminine traits about, you know, their cave muscles, always giving them away and why Men, um, tend to be attracted to their, um, feminine looks with their bright coloured lipstick, but also the importance of the role that they play within society also within families and how they tend to look after their family, um, [00:45:00] their families and extended families and also the charity work that they do a lot in Samoa of. And he he urged real strong messages of support towards them and that they are no different in any way that they're a very important part of the infrastructure of Samoa in or both culturally and traditional. So how important is this kind of change in the law? Because what you're describing sounds like an incredibly tolerant society. But the law less so, Yeah. And, you know, I think the last time that a female impersonation law [00:45:30] had actually been someone was actually sentenced for the actual law dated back something sometime early in the early sixties. But from what I have been able to capture that they didn't actually see, uh, they weren't sentenced to two years, But in saying that in general, these laws still remain and they actually infringing on on their human rights in general. Um, and a lot of, um, actually don't realise that these laws actually still exist. And so what's the story in the wider Pacific? I mean, do you have I know that in Tonga you've got, I think [00:46:00] is is this common throughout the Pacific and and what's the legal situation around the Pacific? Yeah, I think it's also important to remember that male to male relationships are not legal and and also punishable by imprisonment in the following nine Pacific island nations. They are the Cook Islands, Kiribati, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Tonga and Tuvalu. 13 countries and territories in the Pacific do not criminalise [00:46:30] men who have sex with men and in those countries where it is criminal. Is a blind eye in general turned or or do you actually have cases of people being legally discriminated against? Yeah, and I think this is the argument that comes down to things such as human rights issues versus versus cultural and traditional rights, also religious views and rights versus international treaties and endorsements. So I think sometimes cultural and traditional rights can counteract the human right and [00:47:00] also the religious views. And rights can also turn a blind eye because of cultural and traditional rights and and the roles that these certain individuals play. But for example, in Fiji, the case between um Thomas Macos, who was a 55 a five year old Australian man, and Narendra Naan, who was a 23 year old Fijian, that actual case in itself sparked huge media outcry and especially from from the [00:47:30] community who are the, um, LGBT community in Fiji because that sodomy act was actually enforced. Um, and and they they actually was, um, put in prison. But I think if it was probably the naan guy and another local Fijian male having sex, it probably would have had a blind eye turn to it. But the simple fact that there was a tourist there who who was perceived as a, um, Western, gay or Australian [00:48:00] man, um, and because of what they were doing was actually quite public. And the pictures that they had actually been taking of one another, um, in a private apartment actually became public. Um, that's when the law was actually enforced. So, um, you know, the the rituals and the II, I guess you would call them rituals or, um, cultural practises that you know, for instance, in Samoa, um, young boys have experienced sexual experiences with, [00:48:30] and it's normally a a right, a right of passage in order to get some form of sexual experience before they go off to find their their female partner. And and it's not always necessarily penetrative. Um, but those are kind of the examples. I'm trying to get across as as how those cultural rights of passages, you know, sexual passages. Actually, um can kind of counteract the more so tourists coming in country and exploiting, [00:49:00] or it's being seen to be exploiting, um, um, sodomy or practising sodomy. And that's where it becomes an issue. Um, because it it may look like it's interfering with what they believe in as a silent form of toleration or acceptance. So we've we've got law reform happening in SA. What about those other countries you mentioned that? Yeah. Um, actually, I'm not too too too familiar. I know that the Cook Islands actually take a very strong stance against human rights principles, international human rights principles, principles [00:49:30] full stop. They actually believe that, um, human rights principles that are detrimental to their cultural and traditional beliefs and values. Um, so they're always on the forefront of, um, a lot of allegations and accusations around them, not adopting any human rights, um, principles into things such as health. Um, and also with the other. The other countries, such as Kiribati, Nauru, Palau, the Micronesian type, um, countries, I'm not too familiar with them. I don't think [00:50:00] too many people are familiar with them. The legal situation in Fiji, um, is that they've actually passed legislation in Fiji, Um, as of first of February 2010, where they actually are the first Pacific island nation, Um, with colonial era sodomy laws to actually formally decriminalise sex between men. So that is, um, a significant step towards actually one major thing achieving their country's universal access goals. Um, hence, [00:50:30] um, I think Samoa has kind of taken place in terms of, um, following in the footsteps because they also want to commit to their universal access goals. And I think Tonga are on the verge of moving forward also with the Tonga Association wanting to also look into the laws that could criminalise them also. And and they have a royal patron I believe they do. They're, um, Her Royal Highness Princess um, her [00:51:00] eldest daughter, the Honourable, is actually the patron of the Tonga LA association. Um, and they've played an integral part in actually supporting to, uh, to or in general, um, and and showing the mainstream Tonga Society that that ladies are not actually the Children of the devil, which often a lot of people refer to them in Tonga as, um but they're actually, um, you know, [00:51:30] citizens of Tonga that actually contribute to society and that they need to be supported and embraced. And, um, I think she is also one of the ones that's had key, um, discussions with the Tonga LA association about, um, addressing these laws that, um that that do not that that are in breach of their human rights, et cetera. And that was Felicia Brown Acton of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, speaking to Jeremy Rose. And that brings to an end that look at the 25th anniversary of the homosexual [00:52:00] law reform legislation.
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