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The question of whether police can wear their uniforms in Auckland's Pride parade next year has caused a huge row. Some sponsors and supporters have withdrawn because of the ban on uniforms. Uh, about eight or nine. So far, I think most with the rainbow tick indicating the organisation is a welcoming place for people of diverse gender identity and sexual orientation. Sissy Rock is president of [00:00:30] the Auckland Pride Board, and she's with me now in our Napier studio. I think more. Good morning, Kim. How is it going? Are you sticking with the uniform ban? Oh, we're we're sticking with the idea that there are voices that haven't been heard. And, uh, we're not leaving anyone behind. Let's not be me, sis. Are you sticking with the uniform ban? Yes, we are. And there is nothing [00:01:00] that would make you change your mind, no matter how much sponsorship you lose. Uh, the sponsorship is not, um, a big issue for us. How are you gonna pay for the Pride parade and the Pride festival? Well, we've already got to give a little page going. Um, the community are really rallying around, and, uh, you need 100,000 right? Yeah. If we're gonna do a parade like it's been done in the last, uh, couple of years, how else would you do it? We could have a smaller grassroots parade. Uh, more [00:01:30] community involvement. A smaller parade would seem to be a backward step, don't you think? Well, it all depends who we think is, um, stepping backwards like, um, what I'm interested in. And I think what the board is interested in is the voices within our community that haven't felt visible and haven't felt like that. They've been able to, um, identify with pride, and, uh, they're all saying, Hey, you know what? I've never marched in pride, but if we're going to get one, that's really community based [00:02:00] here, that's really about our values. I think I want to be in it. So who knows what might happen? Is this the trans community you're talking about? It's not just the trans community. What other parts of the community is it? It's, uh, it's a broad range. Actually, we're made up, you know, there's many colours in the rainbow. And I would say, um, that, uh, young people people with, uh, disabilities trans people, Um, you know women. Um, people of colour Maori. Uh, poor people are all saying, you know, we want this [00:02:30] to be about us as well. Good Lord. If all those people had a vote about what the parade would look like, it would be impossible to have a parade, right? Yeah, I think that, um, you know, we are as a board, trying to take a pretty middle ground. I mean, there were There's a big group of people saying we don't, um, feel comfortable with the institution of the police, and I think that that's a really important distinction to make that, um, you know, I've not heard anyone say anything about, um, [00:03:00] Rainbow Police people. We want them to be able to be visible. We understand how hard it's been for them to internally fight for their, um, struggle to wear their uniforms and their own institution. But as an institution, it's not there yet by its own admission. Um, you know, in 2018, Tracy said, uh, there's truckloads to still be done. And, um, you know, it's we're saying, Well, you know what? What can we do? That's a middle ground that can allow we We've asked you to to [00:03:30] speak up. You've spoken up. We're not going to ignore your voices. What about if we look at what's happening internationally and a lot of police are wearing uniforms as a nod to, uh, understanding that there's still more work to be done and, uh, showing that they care? And and we thought that this could be a way forward, but it wasn't well, no, it hasn't been a a way forward, and it turns out that the reason it's not a way forward is because of a of a minority of people. Um, [00:04:00] spokesperson seems to have been Mike from a group which wants to abolish all prisons. I mean that that has been one of the voices. What are the what are the other voices? Well, at our community, there were a lot of, um, you know, middle aged women, maybe even elders, uh, standing up and remembering the work they'd done as treaty workers. There are a lot of young, um uh, uh, gay men who are speaking [00:04:30] up and saying, you know, if it's not about all of us, it's about none of us. You know, these might be, um, small voices but they're negatively impacted. And that's what we're about. We're about, um, making sure that, uh, you know, there is space for for everyone at the table. Your material to see your online material says the Auckland Pride Festival and parade would not be possible. Without the support of our family of loyal sponsors and proud partners, [00:05:00] you no longer have that support. Well, um, it might not be possible in the current form or there might be sponsors out via you want us to step into the places where all those big Corporates have gone. Not only big Corporates, Ponsonby Business Association. You've lost Rainbow New Zealand Trust you've lost. You want people to step up and replace them. Uh, people who want to, um, be alongside us with the values [00:05:30] that we hold. I think there's room for that. I think it's, um I don't think you can have your cake and eat it, too, because simultaneously you have said the Pride parade is so much more than its corporate sponsors or government institutions. Do you think that the way it's been means that it has not been so much more than its corporate sponsors or government institutions? and you need to go back to basics. I think that there's a, um, community feeling [00:06:00] that that has happened at our broader, um, meetings that we've had. We've had a lot of community who, uh, not one focused on the police, but just talking about the relationship with pride, where there's been a lot of concern that we've gone too far into the sort of corporate PR marketing. And, um, not enough visibility of, um, queer people that were certainly, uh, a lot of the, um, conversations that were happening. I mean, these are difficult conversations to have because people have different [00:06:30] opinions. It's almost like all liberation movements. If you regard the gay liberation movement, gay lib as a liberation movement, all liberation movements fall apart and devolve into factionalism. This is what's happening here. I. I guess that it's, um, seeming like people are taking sides rather than, uh, looking at having, uh, conversations and different opinions. Oh, well, you know, people are taking sides. You've seen the social media. [00:07:00] You've seen the online stuff. It's outraged. Yeah, I felt I felt it. I felt that stuff There are. Everything's falling apart. Well, it's kind of, um regrouping it. It could I could think that I could say, Oh, it's all falling apart. But I am so heartened by, um, all the people in the community that are rallying around and that are saying this is an opportunity for us to rebirth, pride, to reclaim pride. It's bigger now to reclaim it. [00:07:30] That's the question. Who's reclaiming it? Uh, a whole group of, uh, people in the community that work every day with, um, inside queer communities, young people. People who haven't felt like their, um, voices have been at the table. I mean, I think that, um it's fair to say in in inside our community, there's a hierarchy that's, uh, the same as in, you know, mainstream society. There is a group of people at the top. How long have you been involved in the Pride parade? [00:08:00] I have been the, uh, chairperson since the a GM in July, but before that, I've been involved off and on over the six years that it's been, um, operating in different ways. I've put on a lot of events. Um, and so at what point did you decide that the police in uniform was not appropriate? That was a very recent decision. But you said you made that decision to ban police in uniform [00:08:30] based on your principles. And I can't see my principles changing. You said so. You just discovered principles. No, I, uh the principles I was referring to with the the the principles around wanting to make sure that, um, marginalised voices are heard. I. I didn't feel like I could, uh, hold a Hoy. I facilitated that. Ask people to express themselves to hear that pain, the pain that even, um, police in the room were saying I'm embarrassed. [00:09:00] I feel like I need to apologise for what I've heard. And then, um, ignore them. That that was the principle. I felt like I, uh, and and the board, too. We all felt like, Hey, we've heard these, and we can't say Well, thank you very much. Um, we'll do something about that in the future. We felt like we needed to make a small kind of, um a token, a gesture that would show that we are, um, wanting to, um, you know, move forward with with everyone. Why is it a token gesture [00:09:30] to, as Georgina Baer put it, shove the police back in the closet. You've got a whole lot of LGBT Q i officers who, as Georgina Baer pushes, have fought so hard for the right to wear their uniform in the pride parade. And you're saying that's no good now? Yeah. I really, um II I really feel for those, um, officers and and that's we would really [00:10:00] like to sit down on the table with them, But you've sat down at the table with the police for months and months and months and got nowhere. What are you going to say to those officers? Um hey, what? What What would it take? Um, how can we get back at the table? What? What would it look like? You know, we don't want to uh um stamp on your man. You know, we are looking for some way that you, as individuals, can still be visible, but your institution that you are are working for, [00:10:30] um, doesn't get, um, free PR as if it's AAA fantastic. Um, institution When? Clearly it's not, but everybody gets PR. It's a piece that I'm reading from your publicity. The 2019 Auckland Pride Festival and Parade offers a range of sponsorship opportunities that can be customised to achieve your organization's specific marketing objectives. [00:11:00] Now, are you entirely in favour of the big banks? Maybe next year the big banks will be ruled out. Should they ever front up again as a consequence of this fro? Yeah, well, they've ruled themselves out. Well, that's arguable. I mean, I, um I've got I. I think my role as chairperson is to try and find balance to try and find a way forward. And, um, I'm trying really hard to, uh, listen [00:11:30] and not be argumentative. And, um, I'm open to sit at the table with anyone to find ways forward. That's what I want. We all want a pride I I don't want You're not happy to sit down at the table and allow the police to wear their uniform. And yet you were happy to have NZDF wearing their uniform. Well, um, this decision was made after the police have made an application. Um, the [00:12:00] defence force haven't made an application yet, so I, I don't wanna kind of get out. They make an application because they've decided that if you won't let the police go in their uniform and they're not joining in either. Yeah. And I guess that, um, it it it's like I'm wondering, uh, the police are are are quite, um, firm, aren't they? It's just, like uniform or nothing. And, uh, we're just hoping that that they could be Well, it [00:12:30] would feel like a retrograde step to them. Right. They have embraced the pride parade. They've been marching in their uniform for the last four years, and all of a sudden they have to be un uniformed. How would they see that? Put yourself in their position. And I have, um you know, I really do feel that, um, discomfort and and I guess hurt and pain [00:13:00] that you would feel when you fought for something hard one, and then you feel like it's been taken away from you. Um, but I I've got to keep a bigger picture in mind. That's around the whole community and the police as an institution and who it's not serving, and we can't leave people behind. We've got to, um, find ways when it comes to the increasingly sliced and diced identity politics that we're looking at now. Is there [00:13:30] a bigger picture? Because I, you know, I'm looking at my texts now, and they are saying, for heaven's sake, the police have been our friends as much as our enemies. There is no abolish the police mood here, let them take part. Uh, we we want the police to take part as well in their uniforms. Well, we're we're saying, um, not [00:14:00] in your uniform. I mean, other people are saying to me to see so much talk of inclusiveness that we exclude police in uniform and and are we prepared to, um, put the police in uniform above other voices? Are we saying that that's more important, that it's OK for us to have the police in uniform because that makes us feel more comfortable than it is for us to hear about people who have experienced humiliating, um, you [00:14:30] know, episodes with the police who are, um, withdrawing who are feeling how many of them to see? Because at some point in time, painful as it is, majority must rule. And judging by the response at your meetings and judging by the social media and judging by the response I'm looking at here, a majority of people who are LGBT QI a in various degrees who knows are saying Let the police march in their [00:15:00] uniform. You've been overtaken by radicals. I, um I I just I find it so hard to understand why a community that, um, has often been the minority voice is all of a sudden getting into this idea of the majority voice. And, um, I don't think that, uh, we've been, uh, overtaken by radicals. There's no, um uh, surprise element [00:15:30] here when, um, we've been very transparent as a board the whole time about what we're doing inviting people to participate in the conversations. And now people are very engaged. So I guess it's a very positive thing that we've got a huge membership that are very engaged. And, um, are, um, you know, they're letting us know that they they're not happy. And and more and more people are also letting us know that, uh, they like the fact that, uh, the small amount of, um, influence that we had We've used [00:16:00] to allow their voices to be, um, amplified, and that's actually one of the purposes of our organisation. It's in our Constitution to give voice to members of the Rainbow communities that are fighting for respect and equality and championing the elimination of discrimination of rainbow communities. A texter is saying, Would you prefer that clergy not wear clerical uniforms? Should they still want to support the pride parade? III, I think that, um, [00:16:30] you know, I? I don't I. I think the thing is that the police as an institution, have a different kind of power, don't they? They are a state, um, institution that has, uh, power. And, uh, people have exactly as people have described the institution of religion or various churches within it. Yeah, I'm, um I would say you're dancing on the head of a pin there. The point of the question, of course, is Who else would you want to exclude? [00:17:00] Oh, you ask the hard questions, don't you? Yeah. II, I don't really want to exclude anyone. I think that this is the point. Suddenly, um, inclusion, Right. Who else would you want to disrobe as it were, I. I don't want to disrobe anyone. I mean, you want to disrobe the police I. I want the institution. We we as a board and we have you know, community [00:17:30] voices are saying as an institution See what you're saying to the police is You should be ashamed of being police. We will only accept you if you downgrade your membership of the police force. Oh, I thought what we were saying to the police is, um we are, uh, really, um, pleased that the police have made all these changes and we don't want to cut you out of [00:18:00] our parade. But we want, um, you to be able to, uh, see that for everyone in our community. Uh, it's not a safe place. And, um, you know, would you be willing to, um, make a nod to them and say yes, we care. We understand what you're saying. By our own admission, we've got a long way to go. Um, let's all be in this parade together with no identifying factors. Well, they could have, uh, or I. I don't [00:18:30] want to tell them what they should be wearing, but they they they did a big, um, competition on Facebook for a pride t-shirt. So, um, you know, they could be wearing a T shirt. They could be wearing fancy clothes. But you know what would be what I would really like is, you know, for, uh, the police and in particular, our rainbow Police and us to get around a table and work out a way forward. I feel like things have unravelled too far. What do you think? No, I'm still hopeful. You know, I'm still hopeful that there is, but [00:19:00] with all due respect, you're kind of How can I put this politely? Poll? No old school lesbian was what I was going to say. You can call yourself Poll Anna, darling, but old school lesbian. And these days, you know, with the TS and the IS and the A's, it's just too hard. It's like herding cats. You know, I agree with you. You know, I think that this, um, sort of radical lesbian feminist identity, which I have had, [00:19:30] um, I've realised now and this has been something that I've seen, um, a really changing face in our community. And that's around that intersectionality where we're looking at, um, being, uh, lesbian. But also, you know, Maori or with disability And this, uh, group of people that are getting, um, behind the board and saying thank you are made up of, um, a huge different amount, including some old school lesbians, but also some young, queer people and, uh, everyone [00:20:00] in between. Somebody has said that I suspect that those who are pro police marching in uniform are allowed sis men. Is that fair to generalise? Do you think that that's the case? Well, I think that, um, yeah, I, I think that at the top of the hierarchy, and, um, I think there is a hierarchy. And I think there are a lot of white [00:20:30] men, gay men and very powerful positions, um, in our community. And And we felt that and finally, Sissy, where would the village people be without uniforms? This is so true. It is so true. How are you gonna get yourself out of this? Because I think that people have put too much on the line to back down at all. I'm I'm gonna, um, put my faith in, uh, relationships [00:21:00] and and, um, you know, the power of the collective. I'm, um, hopeful that, uh, whatever happens, we have got, um, an engaged group of people who are facing some of the issues that have been bubbling under the surface in our community for quite some time. Is your board all of the same opinion? No, we're not all of the same opinion we have. Well, we have We have differing opinions, but we, um, made a decision. [00:21:30] And we're, um, working through that using, uh, the process of our constitution. We have an SGM. If the If our membership says to us, um, you're not doing what we want, we will respectfully, uh, step down. We're not here to to fight our our own community. And intersectionality is something you're gonna have to live with. I, I think intersectionality is a really powerful [00:22:00] way to look at privilege and power dynamics. I'm not sure you can organise the parade with it, though. Well, we'll see. I'm I'm still hopeful that we'll be able to have a celebration of what it means to be a queer in Auckland in 2019. I'm not I'm not. You're not queer anymore. That's the point. What? What else? You know what? What do you think we're celebrating? Well, I don't know. Is is if if you're transgender [00:22:30] or asexuals or intersexual or is that all queer? Is that what you mean? When I'm saying queer, I'm using the umbrella term for, um BT BT IQ? Well, good luck with the alphabet soup. Oh, thank you very much. Sissy Rock, Who's president of the Pride Board Pride Parade Board.
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