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Uh, my name is Rex Halliday. I came. I was born in New Plymouth, way back in 1950. And, um, I grew up there. I became aware very early on that when I grew up, I was going to love boys, not girls by five. I had this consciousness, but I didn't really do much about it through being a new Plymouth boy. I don't think there's much remarkable in that. And, um, they went on. Then I went [00:00:30] to university, first of all, down to Victoria, then up here in Auckland, then back down to Victoria, ended up doing a degree primarily in music, and then did various jobs. This was this was the 19 sixties seventies. And, um, I was a hippie by nature, and, uh, I worked for a while for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I worked as a teacher. Then I became involved in a meditation thing. So I lived in an Ashram for 56 [00:01:00] years, maybe, um And then after that, I did some various jobs. I fell in love with a man, um, and eventually ended up working with the foundation. I want to just rewind just a wee bit because I want to know what it was like. New Plymouth 19 fifties. You've got a consciousness of being, um, homosexual at the age of five. What was that like? I don't know. If it was so much as the the interesting thing about what I was conscious [00:01:30] of, I don't think it was a conscious of being homosexual. That word I certainly did become aware of, though, when I was still in primary school, because I can remember walking home from primary school up the hill to our house and repeating the word over and over and over. Homosexual, homosexual, homosexual. And so it was. It was a fascinating word, really. But very early on, I was I was aware that, [00:02:00] um, there were quite big restrictions socially on what should be, and I was aware that I shouldn't ever tell anyone else about what my predictions were. I was very aware that I was in love, that I really fancied my friend's brother, who was very, very cute. And, um, I'd heard that he had done something naughty with one of the other boys and what a terrible person he was. And I was I was hoping he'd do something like that to me, but he never did. Um, we had a inter denominational Sunday school down the bottom of our drive [00:02:30] that was run by the people next door. And I ended up becoming a Sunday school teacher, and, um, there were various, all sorts of other various things going on. Yeah, but I sort of think that the way that it was to be a young boy living in New Zealand then is pretty much very standardised. More so than it is now. Probably. You know, the the the options for who and how you could be were were pretty limited was a narrow range. And I never really thought [00:03:00] I was going to fit into that very well. What kind of options? What were the things that you could be? Well, you could be, You know, you could be AAA. Good bloke. You know, you could be a man. You could do anything. That, um, was a good proper man's job. You could only have a girlfriend and, um, and then a wife and Children, and you should probably have a house with three or four kids. Two, maybe, but three or four is a good number. Um, [00:03:30] And you had to be pretty straightforward and no fancy stuff. And, you know, you didn't want to be too arty, because that was pretty suspect. So these are all the things that surrounded me as I was growing up in, you know, in in New Plymouth How it looked to me. Yeah, and probably, you know, you're a good Christian, too. We we we were a Christian family, and our neighbours were Christians. And, you know, can you recall any other homosexuals in New Plymouth at that time? Not sure. [00:04:00] Although by the time I was 14, I was discovering other boys who were interested in playing around and exploring. And so there was one to at least three other boys who, um I used to have exciting little encounters with one in particular who was two years older than me, who? We had quite a long term play time with each other. Really? You you would call it until my mother saw us one day through the fence, [00:04:30] and that put the end to that. And that was that was that was quite that was quite good. What did she do? Oh, well, it was actually the day before my 14th birthday. And this guy and I had been, you know, fiddling about with each other for a long time. Probably two years by this stage. And we were going to stay overnight in our hut that we had down the back and Mum had bought me a new pair of pants and she came out the back and yelled down, Rex, come up. I've got something [00:05:00] for you. You know, she was really excited. And so we came climbed down the tree out of our tree hut, Um, putting our clothes on, the other guy put his arms around me and gave me a big hug and put his hands down. Sort of touched my tender parts. And, um, Mum saw all that. Normally we wouldn't have thought she would call, and I you know, she'd go back inside, but she was excited about this new thing she she's got to give me. So her reaction was, um [00:05:30] that this terrible, terrible thing that has happened. The guy who did it got all the blame because he was two years older than me. Although if anyone was responsible, it was me. In fact, it was and I seduced him, really almost two years ago. And, um, I was never allowed to play with him again. So instead of because that night we had been talking about and that night when we stayed there, he was going to try Corn holding me. I'd found this thing called Corn hauling in a book [00:06:00] that I'd read, which is, like, you know, man fucking guy. Fucking another guy. So he was gonna try Corn holding me for the first time. My initiation into manhood was completely delayed by my mother having seen me instead, I got a long my first long pair of trousers instead, which is a bit of a let down. Really? So there you are. That's that story. Where Where does the word Halling come from? I've never heard that. I think it's a Midwest sort of, you know, American Midwest term. So I read it in some cowboy book. It was a young, [00:06:30] another young guy. It was quite strange. I don't know where I got this from, but there were There were intimations of homosexuality all over the place in the culture. It's just wasn't I mean, it must have been a book in the library. I? I wouldn't have. Certainly. There was no Internet for me to access. So yeah, around that period. And I'm thinking in the sixties we had the Charles killing in in Christchurch. That was quite a big media sensation. Did you know [00:07:00] anything about the Charles? My conscious memory of it is to do with since then and possibly more to do with when I became involved with gay lib and the like later on the seventies. So, yes, at the time, I don't know. I don't know, because I was very conscious of that. The only the only things I became really conscious of tended to be things like that happened in New Plymouth. Like the hazing rituals. What do they call it? What do we call [00:07:30] it in New Zealand? Not hazing. It's an American term. But you know what the older the older boys did to the younger boys at New Plymouth Boys High School. There was a lot of homosexual homosexual Carry-ons going on there, So there was a huge scandal about that. How disgusting it was and all the rest. Yeah. Can you recall what kind of year that was? No, but I know that I was still at home. So it was certainly before 1968. [00:08:00] Yeah, that's really all I can remember for sure, I think even even significantly earlier than that. It came up more than once. I think the the terrible things that the boys were doing to each other at New Boys High School. Yeah, you mentioned just before gay liberation. And I'm wondering what What what involvement did you have with gay? Well, initially, when I came to Auckland, because this was in 1969 [00:08:30] 1970. I guess this was very soon after, you know, the the fires had started from Stonewall and at university, I met Nigel Baumer. And so I can remember sort of being involved with them, you know, talking with them about things, getting involved in the tent. We had marches and and the like. I didn't get involved at that stage in much in that organisational way. So it was just, [00:09:00] you know, going along and doing stuff and being involved in terms of, you know, as a participant. Really? So what kind of things were happening in gay liberation? What kind of actions and stuff were were being undertaken in the seventies. Do you know? I don't remember. I don't remember too much about that. Um, I remember going on marches on Queen Street at least twice, and that was all very exciting. Um, [00:09:30] and I remember talking a lot with people, particularly people you know, other people who are involved with scale liberation. But other than that, I don't have a huge amount of memory about I mean, we we are talking more than a quarter of a century ago. Yeah. Can you describe what the climate was like? It was It was complex, actually. I mean, on the one hand, you had the fact that homosexuality [00:10:00] was illegal and there was there was a caution and and a slight paranoia about, um being found out. And what would happen to you and or what? What people could do to you if they chose to. On the other hand, there was sort of, like, an almost strident determination that we were going to be who we wanted to be. And it was about time for the world to change and don't get in our way because it's going to change whether you like it or not. and and [00:10:30] we felt pretty. I felt pretty confident about that. And I think other people felt confident. It was like our time has come. We we're going to push ahead from here on. So and And I also remember that that as probably always happens with every generation there was a slight, um like this not distaste but disfavour towards the way gay had been expressed in the past. Like the [00:11:00] the adoption of female names, which just seemed to me totally unless want someone to be a drag to just get every game in a female name. Just seemed to me absurd and silly and and irritating. Really? Um and yeah, it was like, OK, now we can be men, and we can be gay too. So yeah, there was a lot going on, and it was all tied in with the General liberation because the liberation wasn't just a gay liberation. There was just [00:11:30] this general liberation feeling that was coming through that whole time with hippies and with music like the Beatles. I mean, all those people through that time and Woodstock happened, and the Black Panthers and gay power, like all of this big movement was and Anti-vietnam and all of this thing was moving towards a bigger, brighter future. So you there was optimism, right? What do you think drew [00:12:00] you to the hippie movement? Well, I don't know if I was really a total hippie, but, um, you know, there were drugs around in those days, and I did partake of some of those and had some pretty extraordinary experiences on them. Um, and also, there was a part of me that was very much looking for truth with the biggest possible tea. Um And so, um, and I and I think that I think that this is what quote unquote hippy [00:12:30] hippy ness was about was the answers that we had been given we could see weren't really adequate. And we wanted to find our own. And we were gonna do alternative things to do that. And, you know, so all of that fit and very, very much with who I was as a person who I felt I was and where I wanted to go at that time. Yeah, We come into the early eighties and there starts to be this emergence of [00:13:00] HIV and AIDS. Can you tell me when you first were aware of HIV and AIDS. Well, I guess that was probably around about 1984 or so. I remember at that time I was in a relationship. I remember being quite shocked about the implications of it when we heard what was happening in New York and in America generally, and the speed with which it was going and feeling almost a paranoia and a certain anger at God. [00:13:30] Because even though I didn't believe in God anymore, I reserved him for being very, very angry with whenever things weren't going right and I. I was very angry that as we were emerging into a sense of freedom for the first time in our lives, the this tidal wave of damage was also coming in the opposite direction because it did look like it could be an incredibly dangerous thing for us as gay people. And also I was afraid of what [00:14:00] might happen to us socially if we became pariahs within, you know, within our culture, and I have to give credit to I think a lot of the activists, particularly in America, who managed to control um dialogue around HIV aids very, very well and played it very much to our to our benefit, which is how it should have been. Yeah, [00:14:30] I'm wondering how you first heard about it, because, as you said earlier that we didn't have the Internet. Then what kind of communication with, like, America Did you have? I think that for me, that probably was just in the newspaper. Maybe on TV. Um, my boyfriend and I were not strongly involved with the gay community. We had lots of gay friends. Um, occasionally, we go out to clubs and pubs, but we weren't strongly [00:15:00] involved in a community per se. And so, yes, I think it just would have been in the in the general news. Or maybe other gay people told us about it as far as I remember. Can you describe for me what The kind of, um I guess sense of community there was in the eighties in in kind of gay culture. Is it a strong sense? I guess different people give different answers for that. For me, it wasn't a strong it. Well, [00:15:30] it's complex, isn't it? It was, and it was I mean, most of my friends, most of my closest friends were gay. Uh, and I was also very aware that there was a consciousness or a sensibility. Um, let say, if you have had people around for dinner or whatever that only gay people could share, and gay people seem to pick up on it automatically, whereas other people would sort of, like either react to it or not understand it, or maybe try and go along with it. But it could be a little bit [00:16:00] embarrassing. So there was. There was there was. And I think that's I think that's natural throughout the ages that gay people do have an understanding that they can share it, that that automatically evolve, you know, develops between them. But in terms of an organised gay community as a as a solid entity that really didn't exist there. I mean, there there were the facilities, like the pubs and the clubs and, you know, art magazine [00:16:30] and various saunas. And those exist people will go and come from those people go and come from those art magazine. Actually, you have to give out magazine credit art magazine at that time, um, probably played the most significant role, certainly here in Auckland in terms of giving people a sense of identity. Whether whether people would debate whether it was a good one or not is a is another question. But they were very important for us. I think at that time, you know, [00:17:00] What effect did homosexual law reform have on you? And that was in 85 86. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, we were passionately involved in in it being passed. And so, yes, it was very, very great. And Fran became an immediate culture hero for gay people and, you know, and did it change the world for me at the time? Not particularly. [00:17:30] But I was very, very pleased. And when I went home back down to New Plymouth and my younger brother told me he had signed a petition against gay law reform, um, I was able to give him the most sound telling off that you could possibly imagine. Imagine, and he about six months later apologised profusely for having ever done that. So it was. It was a great consciousness raising for people in New Zealand, [00:18:00] as I think the marriage issue is now that even people who fought against homosexuality they had to deal with the issue and and as a and after the event, they've had to realise. Hey, well, look, here they are, and the world hasn't fallen apart. And all our Children aren't being seduced. And, you know, actually, some of these people seem quite nice. So mhm. Yeah. So had you told your family prior to that? That that you were? Yeah, Yeah, yeah. I told Mum when I was 21 I came [00:18:30] home from university because it was a matter of huge anxiety to me. And every time I came home from university on the way home, I get a cold, and I'm sure it was anxiety that created this. And so when I was 20 Yeah, 21. So this must have been after training college anyway, When I was 21 I went back home from from Victoria and, um, Mum was at the fire, and I sat down and said, Mum, there's something I have to tell you. [00:19:00] And she said, Oh, what? And I said, I'm a homosexual, and, um, I think she was completely taken aback. She found it very, very hard to deal with. But, you know, she was a very loving mother. She loved me. I mean, she was the sort of person who, no matter what I did, her love for me would have been, in fact, that that's what she said. She said, I'll love you no matter what you've done. But, you know, it was hard for her, but I came out there and never told. Dad never talked [00:19:30] to Dad about it. Um, but three months after that, Dad, who had just got a franchise to sell um, motorbike said he was going to buy me a Ben motorbike. Um, and I think that the intention of this was to make a real man of me, that if I had a real piece of machinery between my legs, I might not be homosexual anymore. I refused because I was in my heavy phase. I said, No, I don't want worldly things. So he went for a trip to America instead. [00:20:00] So yeah, here you go. And then when I did meet my first long-term lover, my first long term relationship, Steve, um, Dad treated him when I went home to visit with his dad. Treated him like a son. He was quite fantastic. He could never he and I could never have talked about my sexuality would have been impossible for him. But he was able to treat us with respect and care and, you know, and yeah, so that [00:20:30] it all worked out Just thinking back on the homosexual law reform. What impact do you think HIV and AIDS had on the the way that that kind of played out? Well, it did. It did become part of the debate, didn't it? Because the argument was that, you know, people had to feel, um, safe enough to be able to deal with these issues. And that was also very, very true. So [00:21:00] I think I think the out. I think the outcome would have been the same with or without HIV, but it did. It certainly did enter into the debate, and and it entered into the debate both with arguments for the pros and the cons too, you know? How did you come to the AIDS Foundation? Well, initially, because I was working in this [00:21:30] rob and gone name. Name's gone, but who set up the stop AIDS group And there were There were a couple of fantastic guys and I joined that group, There was probably, I don't know, eight of us may be working on it. And, um, that was and all it was. It was a project based on a San Francisco project where it was, like, tougher. We on [00:22:00] HIV. We would get people to host a party or an evening in their house invite maybe a dozen friends. Two of us would go along and give us a big presentation on HIV A ID. How it work, what we had to do to keep ourselves safe. So I was working on that as a volunteer, maybe for a year. I don't know. I was also, um, on the AIDS hotline as a volunteer. They had a thing and, you know, you would give [00:22:30] advice on that. And then a job came up for prevention coordinator for Auckland to apply for that. What year was the stop? Aids? I am not sure. My guess It was around about 9. 86 37. It was around that time. And was that part of the Aid Support network? It was part of the aid support the Auckland A support network. Work was at the time. Yes. So did you work with Bruce Bennett. No, Bruce. By the time I got involved [00:23:00] in the AIDS Foundation, Bruce had already passed away. So yeah, I didn't know I never knew him. Although someone who came over was Bruce and who was also very instrumental in setting up the AIDS Foundation in New Zealand. Who's still alive Down in Christchurch, a man living with HIV all of his time is Ray Taylor, who's a remarkable man. I mean, Ray, Ray Ray is a remarkable man. Yeah. Can [00:23:30] you describe for me? Um I guess the community response to HIV and AIDS in in New Zealand. Um and you know, when we talk about things like the AIDS Support network or stop AIDS, is that being driven from the community or from the government? And And what kind of people are behind that? No. The initial responses were very, very much coming from within the community. Stop AIDS was a community response. It was from people who were people who were community [00:24:00] members who were not paid representatives who were in no way associated with government. Um, trying to do something to keep their community, their people, their people safe, And, uh, yeah, that's That's really where where it came from and a and there's quite a lot of work done on trying to get the government involved. And, of course, the government did become involved. I mean, it provided [00:24:30] the funding for this thing that became the AIDS Foundation eventually. Yeah. Can you recall what it was like in those stop AIDS Kind of top party type situations? But you know what? What? The kind of response from people was the people who came along. It was very, very, you know, very positive. Everyone was like everyone was aware This is a big issue. This is changing the way. I mean, back in those days, game condoms were not part of our existence because we didn't [00:25:00] need them because we didn't get people pregnant and anything that we could pick up one jab and you were fine. You know, you might get gonorrhoea or syphilis would be the worst. And that was rare. And all you needed was a jab, and it was done. So here it was something that, you know, one accidental moment, and then it was like you're gonna be dead within three or four years. Was the was the the apparent story. So it was pretty scary and pretty, pretty big issue, so people would come along and [00:25:30] we would discuss it in some detail. And most people were really interested in knowing what they needed to do, how to be compliant. The questions would be asked, and only once or twice was there anything that was a little bit off the wall? No people. I mean, I can remember one saying one man saying, Oh, I'm OK, II I only seduced young boys and they they you know, they're never going to have it. And I was like, Oh, we had to go a student talking to [00:26:00] to that guy. But otherwise it was pretty good stuff. And in terms of the makeup of the people attending, was it predominantly men? Or I mean it just men, just men. This was this was for gay men by gay men and who were the complete target risk group at that time? Um, yeah. So and the people turning up, I mean, they would tend to be if I if I looking back between 18 and [00:26:30] 65 maybe in the quite a wide range of ages, but certainly with the the bulking being in the mid twenties to the mid forties. Yeah. So what was the job with the AIDS foundation? The job was Auckland Bay for the Auckland Community Support Network. At first, um, it was HIV prevention Manager. What's the time? What is the job? And so that was a job. Really? To, um, make [00:27:00] this This was again a job specifically targeted at gay men to raise awareness about HIV and to, uh, encourage safe practises. And how did he do that? Well, initially we carried on with things like stop aid. We would have, um, workshops, bigger workshops that we would invite lots of people to there'd be promotions, information out in the venues, lots and lots of lots and [00:27:30] lots of different things using the current facilities that are available advertising and out magazine. Um, one thing I became aware of as I was doing that is that this is all very well and it is actually working, and it is doing some good stuff, but nevertheless, we're targeting a small proportion, really, or a lesser proportion of the number of people who need to be know who need to know this stuff and So this was always an issue on my mind. Like, how do we get out to all [00:28:00] the people who are out there having six with men? It's a big group of people, and it includes a lot of men who don't identify as being gay or a lot of men who would would identify as being gay if they thought it was a safer thing to do. And also research was showing that identity with gay community was one self good Self esteem and identity was with the gay community. Positive identity was the gay community with two of the really big important factors [00:28:30] for people to successfully manage safe sex being safe. And so this became became an issue for me, too. Like, how do we create that environment? Very early on, I organised 21 Auckland and one international one Sorry, national, um, gay lesbian conference, specifically to start to work on making stronger community, I guess. [00:29:00] And then a little bit later on, too. There was the initiative which I, which I've been working on for a long time. But we actually set up a community centre, which I thought would have been a really good thing to do, and it worked fantastically for a while. I mean, we had a 1234 story building down on Wall Street at one stage, but, um, that eventually collapsed under the weight of community politics. I'm afraid so. That was a bit sad. Yeah, talk to me a wee bit about how you design [00:29:30] campaigns that that target specific groups. And I'm thinking in terms of things like imagery and language, you know the idea of being really forward with the language you use or being a bit more reserved If you want to get to a different population, what were some of the considerations that you had to go through? Well, there's a There's a lot of things because you've got you've got, you know, within within the group of men who have sex with men, you've actually got a lot of different target groups. But then there is an [00:30:00] an arguable case that the people who are most at risk are the people who are out there going to venues, having regular sex with with lots of other guys and who are quite sexualized in their attitudes. So certainly, there's, there's I need to on a core level address those guys in a language that actually suits them. So, I mean, you know, a lot of our the adverts were very, um, sexualized. Gay? [00:30:30] Positive. Um, there was always there was always an issue for me, which I don't think we ever really addressed very well, because we also this was one of the things about HIV arriving at the same time as gay Liberation. On the one hand, here we were. We're free. We can do what we want. All the restrictions of the past are gone. We can have sex with as many people as often as we want, whenever we want. However we want. And there's nothing wrong with that. [00:31:00] You know, that attitude doesn't sit very well with the fact that we have this thing called HIV. It's a little bit like what Hammond in Venice in the 7 16 70 16, 17 hundreds, where Venice suddenly became this city of of sexual pleasure for the whole of Europe and then, um, syphilis, developed in Venice and decimated Venice, decimate and spread throughout the whole of Europe. Very similar story. In a way. It was like this incredible [00:31:30] freedom gets undermined by the consequences of that freedom. And And I'm not talking on moral on a moral issue here, this is just a simple reality. So yeah, the But there there was a real There was a real question around, um, relationships. And what do we do? I mean, if two guys fall in love and decide to go into a monogamous relationship, they're gonna be pretty safe, and maybe they don't even need to wear condoms. [00:32:00] But to say to even talk about not wearing condoms in those days was like heresy. Really. It was like condoms are say, you you talk about, you know, not wearing condoms. And, um, monogamy was also a little bit heretical, too was in the gay community. So there were these big issues that were being thrown around, you know? Yes, I did this very interesting survey. This was actually after I left the foundation [00:32:30] and I was asked to do a speech down at the town hall about, um, how the gay community is dealing with HIV aids. And to do this, I decided to do a very unscientific survey, and I asked 30. I think it was 30 men, 30 I asked them two questions and I specifically chose. Then I slanted my my target group, which makes it even more surprising. The result I got. I specifically chose men who [00:33:00] I knew were having a a lot of men who I knew were having a lot of sex going out to, you know, really enjoying having a lot of sexual relationships or sexual encounters. And I asked this question. I said if you had the choice when you were born of having a lifetime where you would meet one partner who you would stay with for the whole of your life, you would never that sex with him would be good and you'd never have sex with anyone else. But you would have a good relationship that would always last. [00:33:30] Or you can have sex with anyone you like any time you want and the sex will always be fantastic. What would you choose? I was expecting that, you know, then I, I thought, the bulk. There'll be more people choosing the relationship, but that there would be a lot that would choose the sex every time. What amazed me is those 30 men, only one, only one said he would rather have the sex. So [00:34:00] somehow somehow I was thinking, You know, deep down in our psyche, deep down inside who we are as gay men, maybe the community Maybe this this community that we're developing and showing is not feeding what our deepest desires are. Maybe we need to address this issue of supporting relationships. So that's a bit of a side track I've gone off on. But yeah, that was a big issue for me. Describe for me some of the campaigns [00:34:30] that you undertook as a prevention manager. Well, there was one that I did a series of workshops that ran over a period of about three months. And there were I had other people involved in running workshops which were aimed at looking at all sorts of things, like, you know, self esteem. Um, managing safe sex, erotic massage, looking at alternative ways to enjoy yourself sexually. You know, there was a large there was a large number of, [00:35:00] um and I mean that those things like that worked really well for the people that got involved in them. And there were some obviously, you know, people would hear about it and know about it and talk about it. But you still had. This problem is that they weren't getting out to lots and lots and lots and lots of people. And then and then also there was there were there were the big publicity campaigns, like the AIDS Foundation. Not just me, but this [00:35:30] was the AIDS Foundation as a whole. On the national level in 1990 did a a very hard hitting campaign, which was really based on the notion of, um, aid is dangerous. It can kill you. It's here. Every time you do something, you you're at risk, you know, don't fuck around, so to speak. And this had a number of steps. Um, and it it had [00:36:00] a very broad publicity. I mean, it even had some stuff on TV if I remember rightly and sitting in the newspapers and in all throughout the gay, um, you know, the gay venues and the gay press. And this was this was, I guess, the point where I started to think about OK, this is this is all very well, um, people need to take this really, really seriously, but I think they are, too. But they do need to. But there's something else [00:36:30] we need to be able to celebrate who we are as gay men. No, HIV is this horrible, horrible thing that's happened, and yet we should. We should be just joyous about who we are. Our sexuality should be an incredibly joyful, wonderful thing. So I began to think about how what we could do about that and then then also tied into that thing of like with the imperative that it's imperative. It's really [00:37:00] important that people have a really strong sense of community. Research is showing very, very clearly that people have a strong sense of community managing safe sex. Be better people who have good self esteem about who they are and managing safe, safe, be better. And so this eventually. But the my first idea was like, Why don't we have a festival at the end of this campaign that says OK, yes, it's serious. Yes, it's bad, but we are great. We can actually merge us. We are fantastic [00:37:30] and we can actually be lovers of each other in a way that is safe and wonderful. No, this is this is what eventually evolved into the hero party. Really? Hm. and it was quite amazing. But, um, you know, those different strands that come together and build the concept of hero into into a very strong idea at the time. And it took the the community imagination, [00:38:00] which is great. I mean, I can remember a lot of opposition to having a party, a lot, a lot of opposition within the community. No, you're ridiculous. This is totally the wrong thing to do. We will oppose it from some groups within the community. Like some of the gay groups in the community. Um, yeah. And within a year, those people were just completely behind it because because it worked. And one of the things one of the things that I think worked [00:38:30] really well was just the very concept of hero. Because we all our lives have been told that we're you know, when when we went, I had this group of volunteers and I have to say that even though you you know, I was the central organiser for this I had this group of volunteers who were fantastic and all of these people were just like it. I mean, all all kudos goes to all of them. You know, But anyway, we were brainstorming about what are we going to call [00:39:00] this thing? And the things came up like, No, that's not the right idea at all. Um, pride? No, that's a bit cliched and not not. It's not quite hitting where we want to go. You know, various various ideas came up and then one person don baman sort of said hero. And I was like, No, because I mean, you know, the first thing you hear of his hero at that time was sort of like the muscle brain, muscle bound action man who's shooting a whole lot of people, which is about as unheroic as you could possibly [00:39:30] get, in my view. But I remember driving home that night and thinking about that term hero and thinking. My God, gay people. Gay people need to acknowledge they are here their own heroism. We are heroic, you know. We grew up in this environment that is completely negative around us. We survive that we learn to stand up and be who we are. For most of us, we spend our childhood coming up [00:40:00] so much in is is against us. And yet we managed to come through that that's not heroic. What is little kids growing up into full human beings who are able to eventually stand up and say This is who I am, like it or lump it, particularly back at that time We are. We are facing this incredibly disgusting epidemic, and we're doing it with great heroism, you know? I mean, the more I thought about that term hero, the more I thought We [00:40:30] are heroes and we need to acknowledge it and that by acknowledging our heroes, it's like we can our heroes and we can start to acknowledge our own self esteem as well. You know, if we can, we can start to feel you know how good we really are. And then it was like, OK, let's let's make this not just into a party but into a whole festival. Get more and more people involved, get volunteers involved. And so I put a lot of energy into just talking, talking, publicising, [00:41:00] writing, talking, talking, talking, getting the idea out there and at work, you know, just snowball, and I was very happy with how how that went. In fact, it's quite interesting. I'm getting quite emotional when I sort of remember some of those parts because I can remember on the night of the first hero party down the railways, and it had been a hell of a lot of work putting it together. And [00:41:30] you know, this the group of people who put it together were just fantastic. And that one was that the first hero was targeted at gay men again. But we had some of the women, some of the women from the lesbian community come, and there was incredible support for that. And, um, I can remember after all the effort and all the work and everything and this wonderful party that happened, it was really, really great. And just standing there, my job had stopped. I mean, it was still, you know, I was gonna have to close up and all this sort of thing, But my my, [00:42:00] the the worries had stopped. And just looking out at this group of people dancing and and just feeling incredibly proud, I'm just incredibly proud of my people at that time. Mm. Those are big emotions, and yeah, I mean, [00:42:30] I guess those and those big emotions are emotions of love. Really. It's just like I love these people. I love my people, you know. And of course, through all of that I mean, we're using a hero as a vehicle for the promotion of safe sex and promotion of conduct. I mean, it was just it was just really, really part of it. But I think more important than that was just this thing of like realising that you're a good person, realising that you're a person who's who's worth [00:43:00] keeping safe. Yeah, I think I think that's a very fundamental issue. And so after after the success of that and the group of guys that I worked with, they were fantastic. I mean, you know, I had a job to do they But they were just all volunteers and they put on a huge amount of effort and energy and, um, everyone was quite elated by how successful it was and we had made $5000 profit as well. [00:43:30] So not only had we had a very, very successful HIV programme awareness programme prevention programme, but we've made 5000 dollars for there was a sum. It might have been two times $5000 but no, it was $5000 2500 went to AIDS prevention and 2000 went to A to to, um aid support the support networks. So we decided to do another one and it grew. And the second one, the second one was even [00:44:00] more fantastic. Yeah, they were incredible. I'm wondering. I just want to rewind just a wee bit. And prior to the first one happening, why do you think some groups were anti having AAA festival or a party? I think that they felt it would be would be a waste of money, that it's money that could be spent on support and prevention programmes. And um, [00:44:30] I think I think that was really what they thought of. I think I thought think that they thought it would be a failure and a waste of money. I think that's what it was about. And, you know, I having made a profit that we were able to disperse even though it was 2002.5 grand. Each seems a very small amount now, but for us, who are you know who were being told? We're going to lose a whole lot of money on this venture to have made that profit was it felt really good. And and the groups that [00:45:00] were sceptical I mean, they were sceptical for their own good reasons. I guess they became really, really supportive by for the next year. So yeah, that was all good. I suppose we're also putting it in context because HIV and AIDS have progressed from the late eighties to where you've actually got people. Quite a lot of people dying now, In the early nineties, what was the kind of prognosis and and what was the kind of, um, yeah, prognosis for [00:45:30] somebody with with HIV a ID in the early nineties. I'm trying to remember a ZT must have been around by then. I'm trying to remember when you know the drug cocktails really started and where it became, like, a long term living with the virus. Um, but I don't I don't remember, but I'm certainly. Then, uh, we felt that people could [00:46:00] go pretty soon. I mean, I remember one person that he gave me honour. I was given that in fact, I was given that picture. Um, as as a community. Thank you for doing hero, too. And it was a photo taken by, um, Neil Trigo and Neil. Give me at about the time we were doing hero two had, you know, he well, he was looking at HIV, and I remember him telling me I, I might get [00:46:30] a bit sobbed telling you this bit too. But in in hero two, which was down Wharf, he had done a lot of stuff for us. And I remember him telling me how he went up somewhere and was watching, you know, looking over everyone and just feeling so sad because he was not going to be part of this anymore. Very soon, which was pretty. It was, you know, a sobering, devastating moment. Really, Because he was a he [00:47:00] was he, like so many were just a wonderful, wonderful man. You know, the person I was telling you about who I met with, and Nigel and Nigel was one of the first person I knew who died of AIDS in Sydney. I went and saw him over in Sydney, and he was he had turned into this little and shrunk it. Things do with this incredible sense of humour has an incredible sense of irony and naughtiness. But yeah, [00:47:30] so, yes, I think at that stage it was still, you know, you weren't gonna last long. That's a general feeling. That must be such a hard kind of thing to deal with. Just the idea that that that, you know, it might only be a couple of years for for most of these, these people to to live and And there actually is no hope on the horizon at that at that stage. Yeah, for some. Yeah. [00:48:00] I mean, you on. On the other hand, you had people like Ray who, if I remember rightly way back in 1984 was, you know, it was like he was still going strong after six years, and it just seemed like he almost seemed like a miracle. You know, I in comparison to what was happening. So, yes, it was very hard watching, and it was and how, how hard it must have been for the people who had to deal with that, you know, themselves. But is this wonderful [00:48:30] thing called life and it's gonna be taken away from you very, very soon. A terrible, sad, sad thing. So trying to garner support for the first hero What was that like in terms of getting volunteers and and getting the message out. I had this team, I think, about 12 in my AIDS prevention group who were just fantastic. As I've already said. You know, they really they had energy and enthusiasm and we would meet once a week or so. [00:49:00] And I remember, you know, we'd have a need for something and we'd get someone else and and someone else would come. And then when it got time that we had to start doing lots of because really, the only really big thing we did the first year was the party. That was a very big party, but that's when we began to actually put the party into place. That's when we had to start drawing more and more people in and they just seem to and come along. [00:49:30] I don't I don't remember. I mean, it was probably just word of mouth from people. I don't remember putting a huge amount of energy into myself advertising or asking for volunteers then. So I think it was just that that enthusiasm snowballed and, you know, groups of people would have said, Oh, come along and help. Yeah, I guess there wasn't an hero, too. I mean, that had just grown so much that we put a lot of energy into making the volunteer [00:50:00] group, and we ended up having over 400 registered volunteers for hero, too. Just people in the community putting their energy. And it was fantastically great. I think I think that what hero did for the community and the community sense of itself at that time was very, very good. Very good and very important. Yeah, I can remember Dennis. And how? What was his name? Dennis, Dennis and Stewart of [00:50:30] who had, who had run the clubs and pubs here in Auckland for ages. And Dennis came up to me and said, You know, this has been the most fantastic night of my life, and that just that that was a pretty incredible moment, You know, to hear that from him, I was like, Dennis, I'm so glad to have been able to give that to you, you know, discrete. [00:51:00] So was hero, actually based on anything say from overseas? How How did the idea come up? No, not really. I mean, obviously there was a thing. You know, in Sydney they had Mardi Gras and So the community festival, that notion was there, but in terms of in terms of what Hero was trying to do No, there was nothing that I was aware of anywhere else in the world like that. Um, and the notions of of the hero is, [00:51:30] anyway has been significant. Although I noticed that that began to be taken up for a while for a while afterwards by overseas by gay magazines and the like, but, um, but it was pretty much a homegrown, you know, apart from the the idea of a party in the pistol just there. But apart from that, it was pretty much a homegrown idea. Yeah, you you've mentioned research a couple of times, and one of the people that's kind of been [00:52:00] with the AIDS Foundation from the kind of year Doctor is Tony Hughes. Can you talk to me about the importance of, like, kind of basing stuff on research and Tony's work? Well, um, Tony, Tony and I didn't really have too much to do with each other then. My work with research was, um you know, my knowledge of research was through my own reading. To a certain extent, it was a very strange situation. Back then, there had been a lot of conflict between the aid support networks [00:52:30] throughout the country and the national organisation called the AIDS Foundation, which was the overall governing body. And, um, we were both the A support networks were, in a sense, strangled, um, through a period of time, including this time going out to ER, which caused a lot of resentment. So a lot of what I did was actually off on my own bat. But I can't I mean, Tony, Tony's. What Tony [00:53:00] was doing was more than more than more than any other level that I was aware of at a governmental level at official level. So he was he was. He and the foundation were working to change policies and politics, which is really, really important stuff, but it there doesn't seem to be a great connection between that work at the governmental level and our work at the community level. [00:53:30] Yeah, to me, I didn't I didn't feel that. So did the first hero have a theme? Well, you know, just I mean, just really that hero like, be the hero that be the recognise your own heroism. I think we had spoken something like, Come as the hero you are or something. I remember actually, you know, there was this quote who who was a psychotherapist [00:54:00] who worked with a lot of men with HIV, and I was speaking to her. We went, we had lunch together one day and I was speaking to her as I was driving her back to the clinic in the car. And I said, You know, this whole thing about hero, it's really important, and you must find when you're working with me and you must see the heroism of their life. And she came out with what became a seminal quote for me, and I'm not going to get it right. But I'm going to do my best. And it was something like, um for someone to go through. What? No, [00:54:30] I'm not going to get anywhere near. It was so good what you said. But she said, for someone to go through all the difficulties that you know, gay people go through and people with HIV people go through to to have the whole world seeming to tell you that No, you are wrong and then to stand up and say this is the truth of who I am. She said that is the true heroism. It was like four. You know what a what [00:55:00] a beautiful expression of what I was trying to, you know, trying to do. So it is that that was the theme. Like, recognise your own heroism. Honour yourself. Love yourself. Yeah. Had you ever organised something like this before? Not like that. No, no. I'd organised community events before. And, you know, when I in my days I was doing [00:55:30] different, But nothing of this. This type of magnitude, and the irony of it is I'm not actually into parties. I don't like parties. I don't like gay clubs. I never have. You know, I've been in Sydney twice while Maori grows on. Never been to the party because I don't want to. I'm not interested. So Yeah, There you go. Describe for me the, um the the the kind of set up. What kind of, um, space did you use And how was it? Kind of decorated. [00:56:00] Decorated. If it was decorated for the first one. The second one, the first one. The first one. It was down at the, um uh, the rail sheds are not They're not there anymore. That in fact, I think they were demolished very, very soon after the old rail sheds down, um, on beach road, I forget even the name of the road. And it was this wonderful old shed with two railways coming in with a platform in the middle and a platform [00:56:30] on either side. But Harry Potter is really and, um, this big, massive space. And we managed to get an old steam engine to be parked there for, as, you know, part of our decor. And we built this bridge, this bridge of flowers and joy sort of over between the two platforms that people would walk across. And I think most of I mean, we did lots of lighting. We had John [00:57:00] Draper, who, you know, was a man with HIV who died not long after that. But he was he was fantastic. You know, too. There are so many people who are fantastic. I mean, there's just, you know, I. I could spend the whole time just giving names and still, you know, be going. Um, yeah, and we had a stage over there for the shows and different things. we had different. I think the [00:57:30] one side was sort of like for the dance floor. And the other side was more for a promenade sort of area with food and drink and the like, Yeah, that was really that was that was good and lots of enthusiastic people. I mean, that's the thing that I remember. Not so much, not so much the place, but the people who and made it happen. And the people who did it, you know, And the people who were there, [00:58:00] Yeah, The hero hero, too developed into Hero Hero Two was an extraordinary event. I mean, just again for the people, the people, the people, the people were really, really great. And we at Broadhead who had been, you know, a fantastic director came and he sort of did the overall [00:58:30] direction of the party show. And we had a very clear theme in that which was the the theme of the hero's journey. Um, Joseph Campbell. This was another thing. Part of my own sort of research in doing this was Joseph Campbell had written about how our own personal development, um is is what the hero's journey is all about. All these heroes stories, you know, from Star Wars to the grim fairy tales to all of these heroes, stories [00:59:00] are reflections or a analogies of our own personal development. And so what I wanted to do was create this whole space that would reflect the hero's journey, the journey from darkness into into empowerment and light and, you know, living happily ever after for gay men. And also at this stage, we had decided we'd had a lot of discussion about it. We decided to make this again lesbian event because it's like, OK, we're going We you know, we want to set this up as [00:59:30] a broad community. The women have been fantastic. The the community is going to be much stronger if we see it as a gay and lesbian community because they are part of our community. And, you know, I mean, there's issues, always, always, but yeah, so it became a gay and lesbian. It started to become a gay and lesbian. Through that and the hero's journey. We had, um and, um, Michael Palmata play the hero, the [01:00:00] archetypal hero, and he had to go. He had to start from a place of darkness and go through lots of challenges and things that gave me in face, you know, people calling him faggot and queer and you know, the dangerous things. And then he met some good people on the way, and this journey took him right around the inside of this massive venue That was sort of about three stories tall inside, and and, um, you know, some of it, he was up in the air. And so it was at one stage, he he was walking across [01:00:30] people's heads, and, um, at one stage, he was on the swing underneath a water fountain and projected by a laser onto the fountain. Or all these words like queer faggot. You know, the the really negative words that gets around that gay people, And he just sort of like the character just became cow between beneath all these things, like the damage that those words do to us, the concepts. And then and then he just sort of, like came [01:01:00] out like No, no, no, that is not that is not who I am. And I think at that stage he did, um, a Freddie Mercury song somewhere. It was one of those songs that Freddie me really does. I'm into classical music, so I don't even know what the song is. But anyway, it was one of those sort of like heroic, you know, big. Sort of like, Wow, that's fantastic sort of songs. And, um then he and Tale Mato came [01:01:30] from opposite ends, walking on planks across the head of the audience that were being carried by people. So they they seem to be walking across the sea. Of all the gay men had these big wings on because he was, like the angel of love, and they met in the in the middle and then sort of were hoisted up into the light together, as you know, and people just went crazy over that. It was just It was fantastic. Worked really, really well. So yeah, [01:02:00] that was That was the thing that in that second hero, where was that held? There was a Princess Wharf. And what's now that big hotel ship sort of thing. I mean, so we had that along then there. Yeah, well, we we haven't really talked about crowd sizes for the the first couple in the first one. How how big was the crowd? I think? I think it was about 1500. I think 1500 between 1,502,000. I think we got for the for the second [01:02:30] one. It went up to 5000 people came. So it was a big party. It was fantastic. And how Thinking back to the first hero, how supportive was the AIDS Foundation in in in doing something like this? Because if it had never been done before, what was the thinking in terms of what you were trying to achieve? Well, of course, the I and a foundation an employee, but nevertheless, um, as a as an Auckland community person. [01:03:00] My experience with the AIDS Foundation right from the beginning had been that every project that I or the community group ran, um, was run under Duris, and with a lot of difficulty, we had to fight for support. It seemed to me quite often sometimes there was not enough support. Um, and there were times that I got into trouble for, um going ahead with projects [01:03:30] before I got approval. Because approval was not coming repeatedly repeated, repeated. And then I realised they were aren't going to approve this, So I'm just gonna go ahead and do it. Um, I don't I know that I know that there have been statements, someone someone has said some stuff about. It's quite controversial about, um, a foundation, lack of support and what we had to do in order to go ahead with it. I don't remember that specifically. And I'm sure [01:04:00] that person would have told the truth. I don't remember that specifically. All I know is that it was actually quite a fight. It was politically politically fraught as always. Well, I mean, once it became as and I guess that from their point of view, um, they were just really concerned with protecting what needed. You know, they they had they saw things the way that they saw things, and that seemed the right way for them to be acting to them. But, um, yeah, in the end, I mean, for [01:04:30] the second year, they were very supportive of what happened here. I became the flavour of the month, and, um, it was see to it was seen that it had worked and it worked very, very successfully. So after that, my organisation became very supportive of it. Yeah, what were the differences between the first hero and the second hero. Well, I think I think the big difference is where, um that the first, the first hero, had set a foundation. [01:05:00] So we built on that foundation. The first hero had been singularly targeted at gay men. The second hero became much more broadly targeted at lesbians and and at bisexual, transgender and intersex people, too, to an extent, um, so it was sort of growing outwards becoming more embracing. So it became not just an AIDS prevention target, but it became a community Auckland community building for you know, those of us who chose [01:05:30] to see yourself as queer in some way or another, um, the party itself became much, much bigger. Um, it was it was a much bigger production, and it has some pretty amazing things going on in it. Um, and also more things began to happen up and around it. Like as in the festival. Like I think heroic gardens started that year. Um, [01:06:00] maybe that was the year the the hero rugby team got going. But there were more. There were more events beginning to happen around the the party itself. Yeah. And what about the parade. When did the parade start happening? The parade started the following year. So at the end of that year, after hero two, I became quite ill, which I thought was just, um which I thought was just burn out. And it turned out [01:06:30] to be chronic fatigue, whatever that is. I still don't know what it is, but I seem to have it. And, um But I did. I didn't realise that I wasn't going to be able to carry on this this job. It was a huge job. And I had Scott Johnson who had been the party coordinator the year before, and Bruce Kilmister, who had been treasurer. They between them pretty much took it on with the with the support of a whole of other people. And I still played a part in the in the side. But it was definitely they sort [01:07:00] of pulled it into the future. And it was it was them who were responsible for bringing making the parade happen. And and I mean, what was really great about the parade, because I think that I think that hero too, had been fantastic within our community. But the parade actually forced this issue out into the wider public in a very brazen, blatant, proud, excellent way. It was very, very good. And and [01:07:30] I think that you know what? What's the name? Hayes wandering around with his little city cam, taking photographs of men and but naked bottoms and chaps so that you know what? What? Isn't this just ironic? Here is this man good Christian City Councillor, so outraged by the fact that we have get that we have men with naked bottoms in their chaps in public view that are all you know how? I mean, if you're standing on a parade, how much do you see of a man? The bottom walking bazzle [01:08:00] Japs? Not very much. He took really close up shots, gave the TV so that these naked pictures could be plastered into every television lounge lounge in the whole of the country. And a much bigger view than you'd ever, ever see in a parade. Just so that people could be outraged. Idiots. Morons, anyway. But yeah, the pride was good. The pride is good, [01:08:30] and I and that the second year I did a float and I had the energy to do a float and and again great group of volunteers. And it was just great fun just working. You know, this time I was a volunteer and from the, you know, from the stop days, all the way through here, I've been a paid person. But now here I was just another community volunteer again, and it was great. I really loved it. I really loved just being in there, working with a group of people and doing it for nothing but love. [01:09:00] Uh, those first parades. Were they through Ponsonby? No. The first two were through Queen Street, and it was great going down Queen Street. In fact, if you asked me to vote, I'd say stay in Queen Street. But I think the City Council didn't really want us in there. Um, good old Mills. And we were moved up to Ponton. There are also people on the hero committee at that stage who favoured Ponsonby Road [01:09:30] too. Sort of like it's our space. Yeah, I remember going to have a meeting with Liz Mills, who was mayor at the time. Now he allocated quarter an hour for me to discuss issues about I can't remember what it was about. It was about hero, and it was about his involvement in the council involvement. The council support, and he had expressed his reluctance and negativity about it. If I wanted to go down [01:10:00] and talk with him was really interesting that I went in there and I sat and talked with him. He had allocated quarter an hour. I ended up having about an hour and a half, which astonished me that he gave me that much time and I didn't manage, as far as I know, to budge his opinion, one little jot that he didn't trench mine. So, yeah, that was interesting. [01:10:30] What was the council's, um, response or, um, support for the first couple of hearing, Uh, the first one and the second one nonexistent. You know, we approached them. It was just like, you know, get out of here. You pack of faggots? Yeah. I mean, it was like this. The Herald. You know, I think it was not until 92. And I remember having an argument with the editor of the Herald about this too. They would not use the word gay, anything that we did. It was a homosexual event, [01:11:00] a homosexual this and I said, we gay people use the word gay. We will not use the word gay Gay means happy and blithe and merry. I said no, it doesn't. Anyway, people you know, we did. Yeah, it was just hard work working sometimes with these people. So, yes, the council was not very, very supportive at all at the time that it was a very conservative council with, um Les Mills. And what's his name? Hay. Who was the son? Doug. [01:11:30] Doug Hay was it? I can't remember whose father had been the one when homosexual law reform is happening. And this is so good. This was way back in the first homosexual law reform. And his father, who's got a house overlooking the sewer ponds, um, in SRO. And he said he was sitting there in his house one night in his chair. This is in the Herald. I mean, it's still that article was still search in the Herald, and he heard this voice calling [01:12:00] out, and he got up from his chair and he went out into the garden above the sewer pond and spread his arms wide and said, Oh, Lord, what does thou want? And the Lord said unto them, Keith, I have got want you to lead this fight against homosexuality. You are going to stop homosexual law reform. I mean, the man was a lunatic. It was just absolutely nutty, nutty, nutty, [01:12:30] nutty, just extraordinary. Anyway, it was his son who was the one bus he photographing bottoms and his son Doug. I'm pretty sure it was Doug. Doug, Whatever. Whatever his name was, he was a man in his late fifties. At least by that stage, just I wouldn't stoop so low. So there you go. What was the, um the the the the media attitude at the time? I mean, did did [01:13:00] Did hero get on TV? It was mixed. We did get, Yes. I mean, there were people in the media who are really, really supportive and individuals and groups within the media. We got a reason we got the first hero party, didn't get media coverage that I'm aware of, but I'm not even sure we look for it. I mean, we we looked for a bit to promote it, but I don't think we wanted, you know, it wasn't an issue of trying to make it a public issue In fact, it probably wasn't till he [01:13:30] three that the idea of it being a, you know, a public issue became out there. But I remember a hero, too, that I was interviewed on the wharves about about it for TV. And, you know, the interviews all went on. So yeah, II, I think the media, The Herald, the Herald then was incredibly conservative, and I mean, it still is to an extent, but it's a heck of a lot better. So we didn't get a great amount [01:14:00] from The Herald, But then in the first two years, first two or three years. But you know, these things gradually change. It's like gay marriage. Eventually it has to happen. What was the feeling you got out of the second hero party? For me? It was astonishing. For me. It was astonishing that so many people had such a great time for me. It was astonishing that so many people came up to me and said, This has just been the most amazing time [01:14:30] and and I think that what what it did. Was it just It just made you feel really good about being gay, And for me, it was like being gay doesn't have to be this. I mean, because, you know, I don't know whether this is true or not, but I'd like to think that that that the first two parties didn't have much dope and dope and, um, booze and, you know, I'm a bit conservative, So I one of those gay feuds, I mean, [01:15:00] I've I've done my fair share of drugs when I was a youngster. So, um, you know, don't be a hypocrite here, but I really don't think they do you a great deal of good. Um, and I did not get the feeling that there was much, you know, you know, I mean, how the gay circuit party sort of in the late nineties and the early two hundreds became just fueled by ecstasy and all sorts of other things. I'm not aware of that happening [01:15:30] at all much in the first two hero parties, and I think that was part of what made them work. So well, one thing we haven't talked about is the, uh, hero newspaper slash magazines that that you were putting out. All right, tell me about those. Well, they were They were sort of I guess the way the vehicle to carry some of the messages through. And for the first one, I can't remember. We printed thousands, and the second we thousands, too. First one, what probably [01:16:00] had 32 pages or something in it, and it was all really about it was all it. It was it was built. It was written around the idea of reframing who we are as gay people focusing on this idea of our heroism that that, you know, that we weren't victims. We weren't We weren't, um, nasty people. Um, we weren't people who just had to fight that we're actually all right, you know, we are wonderful, you know? [01:16:30] And so it had lots of stories of gay heroes in the past, and it had a central section of New Zealand gay heroes and I there was myself and another guy, Uri Klein, who actually did most of the work on that, I think Oh, and no, that was the second one that Steve worked on. Steve. Steven. See, once I start naming names, it becomes very difficult because there was so many people who put so much energy into this. So to name one means to miss out 10, if you know what I mean. [01:17:00] But yeah. And then for the second hero paper it just again. It was It was made with the intention of, um, enhancing and consolidating and strengthening, making that message resonate even more strongly. Um, which is, you know, self esteem, safe sex, heroism all tied in together. Yeah. [01:17:30] Where did you find the time to actually put put something like that together when you're also kind of organising? No, I didn't. That was That was sort of part of that was part of that was part of my life. Then I didn't find the time. I had been told that at the time that I was going to be getting clerical support. So I had gone ahead and planned this whole party based on this notion that I'd be getting, um, a full time or at least half time clerical support. Um, and it never [01:18:00] eventuated. So I actually found myself really struggling because so much had been set in motion and I wasn't gonna let these balls drop. So the only thing, and during the day, I just didn't have time to stop. I mean, it was just constantly stuff going on all the time. So the only time I had to do the paper was overnight. And so for two weeks, I, um for two weeks, I worked every second night on the paper and only sit every alternate night. And [01:18:30] at the time, I, I mean, I was enjoying it. I felt good. It was a bit exhausting, but, um, I was a driven man at that time. Yeah, And at the end, we got it out, and and I you know, there was a reasonable amount of anxiety about it, and I had a fantastic person helping me with the design of it. Steve Stevens. So, yeah, we got it out in the end on time. [01:19:00] Hero continued on for quite a number of years. After that, I'm wondering, would I mean, would you like to comment on how a hero progressed? Some, you know, after your kind of involvement diminished a wee bit. Well, I think you know, I mean, as I said to some people, then that every everyone's going to have their own ideas about what something should be and how it should develop and what it should do. Um and so it did develop in slightly different ways. I think that one of the first things that happened was the addition of [01:19:30] the parade, which was just, you know, it was a wonderful bonus. Um, one of the things I've done in setting up the organisation to run hero and I. I was very in my own mind. I was very clear about what needed to happen. It was you needed to have this group of people who I said I was like a board. The hero board that's self a pointing, but and their job their job is to protect is to is to look [01:20:00] after the hero notion, right? But the people running it should be. It should be community. So their job is to appoint a director and then to assist the director getting his his group of people to run it. So each year the running of the festival becomes community empowered. But the ownership of it in a sense or the the protection, the guardianship of it belongs with people who have been appointed because they have the skills to do that. And the reason I did that was because [01:20:30] I thought the moment that top level becomes a community owned thing, it'll be undermined by community politics and it. Sure enough, it was Eventually, you know, people began to be that that group, the bore, began to get more and more pressure to have community representatives on it, which they succumbed to and which eventually, you know, weakened My this is my view weakened. Um, the vision. [01:21:00] And, you know, I don't know, other things happen. Like it seemed to me that more and more people got paid and less and less people were volunteering, which also didn't help. And when that happens, commercial, um, issues become more important than ideals. But, hey, I shouldn't even say all this stuff because because, uh, on on the most basic level everyone who did it, everyone who had a part to play in it did, did [01:21:30] what they believe was the best possible. And, you know, there were some wonderful time and wonderful years through that. Yeah. So when you look back at your time and those early heroes, what are your proudest moments? You know, my proudest moment is is actually that one time on hero one looking at all the people looking at what [01:22:00] the you know, feeling pride for the people who had being involved a group of volunteers and feeling pride in being one of these people being, you know, a gay man in this group of people. I mean, that is the one that immediately springs to mind formally. Um, but in talking about, you know, there were there were a lot of other things, like, [01:22:30] I guess that there are moments of pride to like going to the first memorial First AIDS Memorial that happened in Auckland. And I can remember the person. I think it was a vicar who spoke. He spoke. He gave a reasonably long sermon acknowledging HIV and how terrible it was and all the rest of it and the whole sermon. He never once even intimated that this was an issue affecting gay men, even though the only people just about who were having the disease [01:23:00] at that stage were gay men, which I found really confronting. So when we got to speak, I got up straight away and talked about Nigel, who had been the you know, I said that one of my first lovers, Nigel bummer, had died from HIV. And how proud I was of him and everything that he had done. He had been the first AIDS activist I'd known in New Zealand. So I, I felt very proud of that of that [01:23:30] moment, too. Um and and I mean pride, I guess those I can't, You know, those two do stand out as moments of pride. Um, there's not many more that I'd actually say. And moments of pride, you know, the moments of pleasure or joy or satisfaction or, um, you know, [01:24:00] a sense of achievement. But I guess those two those two are moments of pride. One being I'm proud of it to be in this community. I'm proud of these people who I work with and the other being I'm proud of this one man who died of HIV. And I'm proud of myself for having the guts to stand up and say, Hey, this is about This is about gay men. Don't Don't leave us out. Yeah.
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