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I'm here today with Jane, and today we're going to talk about her brother Neil Costello. Um and I guess the first thing Jane is how did Neil bring us together? I went to see the documentary that you put together for the and, um, I took my two Children with me, who Neil's never met because he died before they were born. And so and then they're now 14 and 12. So I was hoping, um, well, [00:00:30] I went for two reasons because I was interested in the the era and the actual to see that time period portrayed on screen. I have, you know, memories of what it meant to Neil, even though I was overseas doing my OE at the time. I remember the huge role it played in Neil's life and the role that he played in the, um the protests and getting that bill passed into law. So I wanted to go and see [00:01:00] the time recreated and hopefully see some familiar faces. And I was wanting on a personal level. I was hoping to see um, Neil again for myself and hopefully introduce my Children to his kind of living image and person for the first time. So the documentary was all about the homosexual law reform in Was it 85 86. So tell me about [00:01:30] Neill's participation in that liberal reform campaign. Well, I always remember him being very involved. Um, on the material level, his involvement was protesting. He was always very forthcoming with his opinions. He was very clear about his perspective and his take on it. He was very angry with the situation, the the lack of rights and the discrimination and just the injustice that really for Neil. It boiled down to [00:02:00] simple injustice. The current situation historically and currently was wrong and there were no rights for gay men. And, um and that needed to be changed. So he did his utmost to just to make that happen. And for him that took the form of attending all the protests, probably helping organise the protest. Being at the forefront of the protest, he was never afraid to come forward and say his piece to say what needed to be said [00:02:30] to whoever needed to hear it. Whether that meant being captured on film and beamed lived into his grandmother's lounge. He didn't care in the slightest about that. If they didn't like it, you know, they could lump it. He was prepared to take whatever flat came his way on a personal level. Um, and also he did a lot of, um his work behind the scenes was in. He was currently studying graphic design at Wellington Polytech doing the bachelor degree there. [00:03:00] So he was involved in raising money and attending the the, um, the gay Dancers. I can't remember what they called them that they always held up at uni. And so he did a lot of the graphic design work for the posters and the protest posters. And so yeah, mainly fronting being involved, um, on the front line of a lot of protests Parliament, the town hall, lower hut, and doing a lot of the artwork, you know, for the posters in terms [00:03:30] of rallying people and calling people together in the footage I've seen of him, he is absolutely fearless in terms of confronting, You know, either the Salvation Army or there was a a preacher on one of the marches that he kind of pushes them into. Where does that fearlessness comes from? Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think it's a night. I think it was a knight. He, um he [00:04:00] he I think he realised he was gay from a from a young age. You know, um, in terms of I think he always knew he was gay, but he kind of realised his gayness from the age of six. So that experience of growing up, always knowing that he was different, marginalised, um, it never cowed him, I think possibly as a young child. 10, 11, 12. He, um he would have struggled with the the name calling [00:04:30] the bullying, But I think the effect it had on him was to just come out fighting. Um, I think a lot of that innate courage is from I would say it possibly comes from his Irish background. You know, like in terms of his four, our four grandparents, they were all born into the Irish Catholic community on the west Coast. Um, and our eight grand great grandparents all came from Ireland, [00:05:00] pretty much to the west coast. So they were born into and there was no other blood involved. There is no English blood. There is no, you know, German blood or Italian blood. It's all Irish, and I think that just genetically or psychically or on a cellular level, whatever a soul level, um, that's just what he is. He's just one of those fighting Irish, you know, in the same way that we've just had the Centenary [00:05:30] of the Easter rebellion. I don't know if you, you know, know much about that, but the the people involved there were poets, scholars. They knew they weren't going to win that war. The Easter rebellion. And they didn't. They were all executed, but they rebelled. Anyway, It was a symbolic gesture. And it turns out that they won and over the course of time, And I think just Neil just had that blood. He just [00:06:00] had that warrior fierceness that he was uncowed. So he was born in 1960. So we're talking about growing up in New Zealand in the early sixties. Can you paint a picture of what it was like kind of growing up in in that time? Yeah, well, he was born in, um we were living in Kumara Junction at that time, which is? My father was with the New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation. So he was a technician, So we were we always lived. Um, we lived at the NZ BC transmitter [00:06:30] at Kamara Junction, which was, um, two houses. So two families and a single man's quarters. And we were So my mother and father were isolated in the Kumara Junction. But Greymouth, which was where they were both born, was Maybe maybe it's 12 miles. Maybe it's 20 miles north. So we were very plugged into our grandparents. Two sets of grandparents, tribe of cousins, whole tribes of cousins. Um, but my mother was [00:07:00] kind of slightly different from all her brothers and sister In-laws. Um, she Yeah, there was kind of something going on with my mother. I think today she would have been diagnosed as, um depressed, you know, And there was no help, and there was no counselling. So my mother struggled with, um maternity. Um, so we were born into It was a very repressed, [00:07:30] buttoned down kind of outward society. But we had a we had a, um we had some nice aunties and uncles, and it was a very strong kin kind of network. Although it was kind of in the Irish Catholic Way was pretty repressed. It was repressed for us girls and Neil quickly would have got the message that to be a sort of a a gay boy [00:08:00] in the 19 sixties, you know, wasn't a good thing. So he would have had to sort of button down a lot of his natural, um, loves and instincts, you know, it wasn't OK for him to, you know, just, you know, dressing girls clothes or anything he might have wanted to do. I mean, I was pretty much involved in my own thing, so I didn't kind of notice what it was like for him at the time. But looking back, I can see that any kind of urge to self expression that he [00:08:30] had would have been pretty much stamped on unless it was acceptable. And to be acceptable, you had to play sport, be interested in rugby. Yeah, and he, you know, he was never interested in that. So So we stayed on the west Coast for, um, we moved over to banks to another transmitter site in Gibby Pass, which was on Banks Peninsula, which was even more isolated in the top of a very high hill. It's as the crow flies [00:09:00] between Littleton and a If you pick the halfway spot. It would have been pass. So there was a transmitter station there. Um, so we moved there in nine. Neil was born in 1960 we moved there in 1964. So he was about three or four when we moved there. So, um, that was even more remote. And so But Neil was always very close to my mother, you know, Which was a good thing for him. So he had a warm [00:09:30] kind of loving relationship with my mother. You know, my mother. I think it was that old thing about, you know, possibly favouring the son. Maybe in her world. It wasn't until you produced the first son that you were. You truly arrived as a as a good daughter in law. I remember she always struggled being a a daughter-in-law. You know, my grandmother, my father's mother, was very severe, Um, for her own [00:10:00] reasons. You know, she was a very Irish matriarch. She had sick five boys, one girl. So, um, so Neil had a a very, um, a very loving relationship with his mother, which was nice for him. She always She always understood him and always protected him. Um, but then he moved. He would have moved off to school. He went to We went to school, which was kind of a 40 mile bus ride. Um, from Gibb's pass, I think it was fair and back. [00:10:30] Um, it's quite a distance. Um, and Neil? Yeah, I don't remember him liking school that much. He always struggled to fit in, I think because he was slightly different. Describe describe him as a as a child. Um, he loved drawing. He was always drawing. I think that was his kind of only allowed outlet. You know, he was quite, um [00:11:00] we always fought Neil and I because I think my kind of take on it is that because we were born into a very repressed, um, background and family, my mother was kind of depressed, anxious and isolated, uh, with no support. Um, there was a lot of tension, a lot of kind of unhappiness. We didn't understand why she was so unhappy. So Neil and I, Neil and I were always very close in the sense that [00:11:30] we shared the same temperament. Um whereas my two sisters I had an older sister and I was the second um, Brenda was my older sister. Then there was me then Neil. Then five years later, her younger sister, Pamela, came along. She was born at Gibb's Pass. Brenda and Pamela had kind of my father's temperament, which was very, um, kind of easy going. You know, nothing kind of ruffled them. They were easy going. [00:12:00] Didn't matter, you know, whereas Neil and I, we kind of shared our mother's temperament, which I think was the more kind of, you know, dominating, fiery sort of, you know, quite fiery and passionate. And if we weren't happy with something, then I think the dynamic that we got going was that we could let it out on each other. So we had this pact, this unspoken pact, that Neil and I could literally fight to the death. [00:12:30] But anything went, but it was OK, you know, we understood each other, and it was all OK, so we had a very, um, kind of a kind of an even sort of aggressive, kind of violent sort of relationship. We hated each other, and we did fight to the death, you know, he couldn't move or breathe without me, you know, hating it and and [00:13:00] vice versa. You know, I couldn't sit next to him in the car, in the back seat. You know, it was my poor mother, you know, she was constantly refereeing us, but, um, but we did have this unspoken agreement that we understood each other, and we always had each other's back, and, yeah, he, um so he was He was kind of an inside child, you know? He was he would draw a lot. He would spend a lot of time with my mom. Whereas I was my me and my older sister were outside playing with the neighbouring boys, you know, we had kind [00:13:30] of a gang and we were building huts and things like that. He was just a little bit younger and kind of not into that He had. He had his friend patrina from one of the next door houses who was his own age, a girl, and he used to play with her, and they used to go off and do their things, you know? So, um, we kind of didn't, you know, our worlds didn't connect outside and in our play life. Um, but, um, you know, we'd meet each other. We live together, and we'd kind [00:14:00] of suffer each other, you know, in the family and on holidays. And you were saying when he was six, he he realised he was gay. What? What happened at six. I don't know, Domingo. You know, sweetie, because he it was in his submission to parliament. He wrote, didn't he? That, um that Roger Swanson gave us from the gay and lesbian archive, his submission to parliament. And there he writes at six. He [00:14:30] writes that at six years old, he realised he was gay. Can you say anything more about that? Tommy? Do you remember what he actually said in the submission? How he realised he was gay when he was six. I think he was six. He he was aware that he was gay. And then when he was 12, he realised he was definitely gay. OK, can you remember how he knew he was gay? No, we don't know that. Uh, Neil, [00:15:00] I never had that conversation with Neil, so I can't pinpoint it to some of the tour. Yeah, I know that in school, he always his friend was always kind of another boy similar to himself, you know, and when I look back, I can see that. You know, he'd kind of, um, you know, teamed up with the other. Another boy who, you know, probably was gay as well. [00:15:30] You know, guys that didn't fit the the macho profile gentle kind of more sensitive, interested in other things. Kind of boys, you know, Um, so I remember at primary school and at, um, intermediate age and at college, early college, his best friend was always another boy that, you know, has since come out as gay, so kind of, you know, [00:16:00] you know, his friends were kind of his refuge in that way. So when were you first aware of its gayness? Um, not until I came. When I left for my OE in 1980 Neil would have been 19 and as far, and he was still living at home then. And, um, when I came back, sort of five years later, he was an out gay man living in street. So [00:16:30] I think I made a trip home in about 1982 and he told me he took me aside then and told me that he was gay. Yeah, that he had come out as gay and, um yeah, so that's the first I knew. But I remember having a sense of not being surprised, you know, that it perfectly fitted, um, the picture of of Neil and, um, you know, I mean, it wasn't [00:17:00] a big shock or anything like that. You know, it just made sense to me, you know? And I remembered that I couldn't ever get the feeling of him as a child as a young teen, you know, when you start thinking about maybe your future sister-in-law and you know, all that kind of thing that you maybe start doing when you're about 12. I never got a sense of Neil ever sort of getting married and marrying a woman and having Children. What was it like, say, in in the early eighties, when somebody [00:17:30] came out? I mean, what did that mean? Because I mean, coming out nowadays where homosexual law reform is I mean, it's it's it's legal. I mean, what did it mean? Back in 1982 somebody saying I'm gay. Gosh, it kind of meant something like, say, if you lived in Communist China and you weren't allowed to be a Christian, everybody was communist It's kind of like coming out and saying you're a Christian. You know, it [00:18:00] was, um it was a big deal, because, um, kind of wasn't allowed, you know, you weren't allowed to be gay. It was, um, So you were putting yourself on the opposite side of everybody of your family. I suppose I can only speak of a family, but, you know, the the reason it was such a big deal in a family was because you would attract so much. Um, it was so much the wrong thing to be, you know, it was the wrong thing. [00:18:30] It just wasn't acceptable, you know? And we had a whole batch of Catholic uncles and aunties, and Neil was the only gay son, you know, Um, so just, you know, it was a big deal. Although Neil was fearless about it and didn't give a damn, obviously, But I know that my father and mother, even though they were immediately accepting of Neil and and loving, they were afraid for him. You know, they could They [00:19:00] were afraid for what it meant for Neil and to move out into society, all the abuse. He would attract all the discrimination he would attract how he they feared for his ability to earn a living. You know, that was always uppermost in their minds as kind of working class parents. But how will you earn a living? Who's going to give you a job? You know, if you dress in a way that's going to attract, um, negative attention, criticism. So they were It was a very it [00:19:30] was a brave thing for him to do and a hard thing for him to do. But he didn't give a toss about that. There was never any kind of second thought. He was just gay, and he was gonna live a gay life. And people didn't like it, you know? But yeah. So and and of course, he did attract, um negative attention. You know, he was gay bashed. It was that he came out at the beginning of So in 1980. Yeah, he came out at the right time basically to [00:20:00] to participate in all that momentum that gathered in the next five years to to make you know, living a gay life legal. I could say that during our childhood, you know, we would always go and visit cousins You know, Neil was always on the outer with all the cousins because they were all boy boys. But there was one cousin that Neil actually got on with and my mother and my auntie would always remark, Wasn't it nice, Neil? And, you know, [00:20:30] my cousin cousin Get on really well. And of course, um and they did every time we met. But of course. Um, you know, I mean, I remember Neil saying in later years that obviously, you know, he was gay, but, you know, nobody would ever it was never spoken of. And this cousin has never lived a gay life was never out. Always kind of. I mean, who am I to say? Maybe he wasn't. But, [00:21:00] um, Neil was really good at and ruthless about outing people. Um, and he swears he always swore and declared that this particular cousin was gay. So you mentioned ruthless outing. So what? What that would take the form of? Well, basically everybody he met any straight man he met, he would sort of say, you know, he would always look for the You know, um, he was just [00:21:30] very He was He was angry and cynical and he would, um, he would ruthlessly sort of or out to anybody who was in conversation or hearing or me or whatever. He would sort of, you know, you know, identify people who he thought were sort of close or, you know, even just streaks of behaviour that, you know, Um, yeah, you know, he would pick up on as, um, being close sort of behaviour. You know, [00:22:00] that kind of thing? Yeah. He had zero tolerance for people who were living, um, sham lives. Or I think, because he had struggled, you know, he couldn't understand why people weren't as upfront, as honest about their mhm themselves as he was back in the early eighties. I mean, I, I get the kind of sense that, um people thought that if you were gay, you didn't necessarily have a positive future that there was [00:22:30] no good future ahead of you, was it? Oh, definitely. Yeah. And would you think that, and being kind of that ruthless outing and and being really visible was saying, actually, I'm proving you wrong. I'm not going to be what you think I'm going to be. Yeah, well, I I mean, I'm absolutely sure Neil was absolutely well, he had incredible determination to carve his own path and live his own life. And and that was part of going to London was to get out into the big wide world and join a community where [00:23:00] there were more fellow, um, you know, for more community to to live an open gay lifestyle and more opportunities. So you kind of pretty much had to leave the country to to live that life. That kind of went without saying, Um, but yeah, he he he wasn't going to let anybody, um, block him or cower his his His lifestyle. [00:23:30] Um, he had a lot. So, yeah, he was up against a lot in terms of the family and all the the negative judgments and the the the surety that, um, you know that it wasn't possible that you couldn't. But he just removed himself pretty much. And, you know, he stuck with his own, um, community and friends. And, you know, he he he didn't have much time for, you know, people who had closed minds and he wasn't [00:24:00] going to waste his time and let them kind of depress his energy by even just having a bar of it. So he he kept away. What about the relationship with With With Mom? Um, Well, Mom ended up, um, taking a very active part in the the law reform lobbies. She organised a petition. She joined a support group for parents of gay Children. She was totally in support of Neil. Neil got her on side very easily, very [00:24:30] quickly, and she was happy to do her bit. You know, she totally supported Neil. Yeah, absolutely. No question of it. Yeah, he educated her in about five minutes. You know about what was going on. And she very quickly saw that, um, he the best thing she could do for him was to, um, support his, you know, push for a positive. Um, um, change in the law and positive gay lifestyle for him and all his friends. She loved all of his friends, [00:25:00] you know, she met all of his friends. He was very gentle with her, but very kind of, um um, proactive at the same time, you know, wrote her into all his activities, and and and she felt like she was, um, doing something for him, you know, supporting. Yeah. Changing society to make it safer for her son, who she loved very much. Yeah, and my father didn't take any active role, but he totally supported [00:25:30] her and Neil as well. Although he you know, I guess as a male, he probably struggled more with his feelings of vulnerability around Neil going out there, you know? But I could say one thing when um this is indicative of the the kind of mentality that he was dealing with, and it was very hard to accept when the news came through a few years later that Neil died of AIDS. I, um I went down to the West Coast [00:26:00] to, um, to visit my grandparents, and my grandmother was still alive. And I've got an uncle that I'm very close to. And, um, I remember a comment that my uncle made that, um, you know about Neil dying? He said, Well, I could have seen that coming. So basically, the attitude was OK, we'll stand back and watch Neil be gay. But there's only one way this road leads, and that's to [00:26:30] hell in a hand basket, you know, so nobody ever believed in him or his push for a gay positive gay lifestyle. It was all kind of doom or gloom. Um, and I remember turning on this uncle and giving him a real ear full, you know? But I see now that that's that mentality, and you couldn't you know, it was too late to change for those people. Um, maybe there were uncles and aunties out there that were more positive, but [00:27:00] I don't think so. So, um so, yeah, he fought, you know, he fought a hard fight for what he believed in, and he he secured it. I mean, were there many kind of openly gay or rainbow people on the West Coast? Oh, no, no, no, never. I probably still to this day. I mean, I don't know, I haven't kind of looked at that, but I would say when I mean, I go down there once a year and I never see any. [00:27:30] Um, no, it's very, but I mean, probably if I looked in the woman's health, you know, collective and all that. I mean, there are those places and there probably are support groups, but it's not. It's a very macho. Um, yeah. No, no. There's no opening of ideas there, really. It would be a hard life, and I would say that people would move out as soon as they could. Yeah, you mentioned earlier about the street flat that comes up quite a bit in terms of the kind [00:28:00] of activism around homosexual law reform. Can you tell me, um, who was in it and and how it kind of came about? I couldn't really say how it came about because I was deeply into my OE at that time. But, um, it was where the, um the Wellington Girls College is now on that corner of Mul grave. And so there's now a courtyard. In fact, I was there last week with my daughter. Um, it was a two story place, and there was, um all I know is going there for dinners and things like that. There were, I think [00:28:30] the main stays were Neil and John and Shane. Neil Anderson might have lived there at that stage. Um, and lots of other people coming and going. And John Lusk and Shane Town. Yeah, and they were. And then when Neil moved here, they were always over here. So it was always kind of like dinner over there, or dinner over here. Um, and of course, things are settled down by the time I came back. But I, I remember Neil talking about, um because [00:29:00] when, um, I was overseas, I used to We used to speak once a week on the phone, and then he was always heavily involved with, um, you know, protests and banners and graphics and, you know, posters and and things like that. So I I gather that there was a kind of a hot bed of, um, forming of sort of protest and lots of plans and strategies and that going on. And I think most of the guys there were also involved in the, um, [00:29:30] the Gay Task Force and and the gay Helpline. They did there once a week on the gay helpline. Yeah. So, um, but it was a great, great place with a with a great atmosphere. You know, everybody was always very, um, happy and active and lots of fun and lots of friendliness. A nice, warm atmosphere, you know, of of just, um Yeah, just positive living. And yeah, it was great. [00:30:00] And I guess they were on the cusp of actually changing society, weren't they? I mean, you know, for for for decades, people had been kind of trying to get law reform in terms of the homosexuality. And and now it was kind of happening. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. You'd have a better idea of whether they knew that it was going to succeed. Um, possibly they knew. I mean, possibly, I think with the early eighties, with the changes, there was that sense of Well, the time is now. And, [00:30:30] um, it was OK to be out and proud, because I remember meeting Neil down the street and he would be I'd see him at James Smith. I'd be on a bus and I'd see him at James Smith's, um, bus stop, and he'd be there with his boyfriend, Rob. Um, can't remember his name. And, you know, he they'd have earrings and shorts and blonde hair and they'd be kissing, and and they were just at Jane Smith's bus stop. So and, you know, they weren't being, you know, they were very out [00:31:00] and very proud, and it was pretty much OK. Whereas it never had been before. You know, they weren't being arrested. They weren't being abused, you know, by passers by um they were out and proud and doing it for show like to make a point and kind of getting away with it, you know, And I don't think that had happened before, and that, to me, was a thermometer of the times that, you know, Yeah, it's OK. [00:31:30] You know, like, people can't do anything about that now. And these guys are taking their place and making their stand, and they don't care. Um, they're not going away. So, yeah, there would have been that sense. I mean, I came after I came home after their law had been changed, but it must have been I remember, Yeah, getting a sense from Neil that they were very caught up in the the thrill and the change and the momentum of, [00:32:00] um, just making it happen. Really. There was never any doubt that they were gonna, you know, make it happen. Like they weren't going back into the closet, you know, they weren't going to live closeted lives. And it didn't matter what people thought, and they didn't care what people thought, and they would take the consequences. But, um, things had changed. Yeah, Rob is that Rob Lake [00:32:30] Rob lake. Yeah. One of the things that did happen, of course, was the the gay bashings. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, well, I think I was here at that time. Yeah, I remember Neil. Um, it was at the railway tavern, and it was at a It was at a gay disco. He didn't. Didn't you know? Neil would never go near straight bars or anywhere like that. They were at a gay disco in the railway tavern. And, um, I think he was on the dance floor, and somebody just came up and bottled him. [00:33:00] That's the way I recall it. And, um, yeah, Neil went off to A&E and was pretty angry about it, and, um, I can't remember. I think he went to the police. He would have gone to the police, you know, it's against the law. And, um yeah, so I think that happened twice. Yeah, and I remember him coming home, and, um, yeah, being pretty pissed off about it, Really, he was just pissed off about it. Yeah, You know, um, that [00:33:30] that it happened in a place that was meant to be safe for him, you know? And that these people were still out there. Yeah. So can you recall how the police reacted to to these gay bashings? Not in any detail. I just remember Neil, um, making a complaint to the police, but not really expecting anything to happen, and nothing did happen. But [00:34:00] I can't recall, um, you know whether an interview took place and how that would have gone. Yeah. I can't remember if police keep their records from that kind of thing. Yeah, so, no, I can't really give you much detail on that, But I, I certainly don't recall any, um, any satisfaction, you know, any visits from police, you know, to the house to question Neil. And you know, any solution any any body being caught or [00:34:30] no charges were pressed, that's for sure. I know that. But then they did do something themselves in terms of doing the self-defence workshops. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Neil's response was, um I think I think for Neil in terms of just making going down to the police and making a complaint was, um, his protest, you know, because I don't think that that probably never happened before. I can't you know. So that was his one of his responses [00:35:00] and also to form the, um, the self defence Group. Yeah. And, um and, yeah, go through it that way. Yeah. I just remember Neil being pretty, um, charged up and involved about that, that, you know, gay men had to Yeah, they had to protect themselves because there was no kind of police response. And this happened in a gay in a gay disco in a gay bar. And, um, you know, obviously they were on their own and, um, needed to defend themselves. [00:35:30] So, you know, let's just do it. There's a wonderful photo of, um of Neil. I think it's the pink triangle where he's got boxing gloves on black eye, kind of referencing the Yeah, that was taken here in the lounge. Yeah. Yeah. David Hiley took that photo. Yeah, I've got a negative of it somewhere. It's my intention to get it framed and put it up somewhere. Yeah, that's right. That was just, you know, highlighting the the the incidence of gay bashing in general [00:36:00] and sort of a call to yeah, to defend, defend yourselves. You know, the necessity for self defence and to take those steps to learn self defence and to be prepared to put it into practise, you know, because there was no defence. Really? And that, um, you know, you could get gay bashed at any time. And, um, I've mentioned the Pink triangle. What was the pink triangle? Um, as far as I understand [00:36:30] it, it was the the the national magazine of Sort of, the gay men's liberation movement. So very heavily covering the, um, the events around, um, law reform activities and political events, but also social. You know, lots of, um, you know, photos from discos and, you know, parties and things like that. And also, um, kind of welfare, you know, welfare focus, [00:37:00] um, and general interest. Yeah. And it was, um Yeah, I think Neil did the did. Did all the graphics for that, You know, the kind of not the type setting. That's the print job. Maybe he did letter setting and all that kind of stuff. Maybe he did most of that graphic design, but I remember David Henley being the photographer and in charge of publishing. I think so. Yeah. I think it was a monthly magazine. Well, let's talk about Neil's graphic design. And, um So he [00:37:30] was doing what? Posters and design work for the gay task force for the gay task force for the, um, for the rallies. You know, the posters for the rallies? Um, yeah. And he always had a standard sort of screen print approach. Yeah, Um, quite political. Quite simple. Yeah, um, you know, um, the Lombard signs. And he was fond of that phrase. God bless us, Nelly Queens, which I recall him saying, came out of the [00:38:00] Stonewall riots when the police were arresting and handcuffing the, um, the you know, the bar patrons they would call out. God bless us, Nelly Queens. And but I'm not sure that, you know, um, yeah, so he was just heavily involved. Plus doing his portfolio work for his graphic design, the bachelor of graphic design at me. He had quite a heavy workload there, and, um, yeah, but yeah, [00:38:30] a lot of, um, graphic stuff was a posters for the advertising, the rallies and the the fundraising dances and the, um yeah, the task posters. And it's great to see you've got some on the walls. It's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, I just got them, um, reframed because they'd been in the same frame for 30 years and was starting to get a bit mouldy and broken. Um, they did have a big border around them, which made [00:39:00] them a lot bigger and a lot more sort of graphic. So it's strange to see them in sort of such a short frame, but yeah, they're very colourful and very yeah, And we we we use the screen print for his AIDS quilt. So reproduced, um and I've got I've got the designs on the top cupboard somewhere the actual cut out stencils that are used. Yeah, it would have been great to see him move into the digital age and what he'd be doing now, you know? But that was all hand cut stencils and screen prints, [00:39:30] which is a good way to go as well. So AIDS was happening at the same time as law reform in New Zealand very early days. Was Neil aware? I mean, did he talk to you about kind of HIV aids? He came the first. The first discussion I had with him was here in this lounge. We had a record player over there in the corner. It was a Sunday afternoon. It would have been sort of early 80 [00:40:00] five. And I remember him putting a record on and talking about this gay cancer that they had discovered and was they were starting to hear about from San Francisco or New York. And he was totally freaked out about it and remained totally freaked about it until the day he died. Um, 56 years later, from the first, he was absolutely horrified. And [00:40:30] and And that was the story. The line we were hearing. There wasn't much information. The only information at that time, as I recall, could be recalling wrong. But was this a sky cancer? And nobody knows what it's about, you know? And he was talking talk about monkey viruses or, I don't know, nobody knew much information. But a lot of, um, gay men were dying. It was like a plague. And it was just totally freaky. And Neil was totally freaked out from the beginning. Um, and there being no [00:41:00] cure and I I remember that he just couldn't tolerate hearing anything about it. Um, and I'd always say things like, Oh, don't be silly. Now it's, you know, it's like they'll find something and it's just something weird that's happening over there. And it's never, you know, there was no no awareness or inkling that it would affect our lives. You know, it was like something one of those weird things that was happening in Angola. Or, you know, there was no we [00:41:30] had no idea and no inkling that it would ever affect us or the people we knew. It was just unthinkable. Um, and I would always, you know, come back with that, um And then So Neil got on with his life, and it didn't start to like, I don't recall Wellington friends dying until about 19. Maybe 87 88. You know, um, people [00:42:00] started dying, and then it got pretty sort of, you know, scary. Oh, it was It was horrible to find these acquaintances and, you know, um, in the Circle and Wellington Circle, dying people like, um, I can't quite remember his name. But the art, the hairdresser and the guy, um, yeah, just lots of people. Um, and so, Yeah, I remember Neil. Neil came home from London. [00:42:30] Neil went to left this house and went to London in about 1986 or seven went to London. He came to visit a year and a half later and he had, um he had cold sores in the back of his throat and they wouldn't go away and looking back. I, I can recall now that he was really paranoid about having AIDS. Then this was 1987. Um and I remember him being at my parents' house and, um, he just [00:43:00] these really painful cold sores in the back of his throat that wouldn't go away. And he got admitted to hospital Wellington Hospital. And, um, I remember going to visit him, and we were he was in isolation, and none of us could figure out why he was in isolation and Neil was spitting tax and saying, Oh, they've put me in isolation because I'm gay because, you know, they think I've got AIDS just because I'm gay. They think I've got AIDS and they've put me in isolation and he was really angry about it, and we all had to go up to go and see him. [00:43:30] And then they discharged him a couple of days later and said there was nothing. They gave him strong antibiotics and said there was nothing they could do. Um, so obviously, they, um, thought he was he he had aids the AIDS virus and had put him in isolation. And I remember really talking Neil out of that thinking. Yeah, they just, you know, they're just being homophobic and being crazy. Just just because you're gay, man, and they've got you in isolation. Um, [00:44:00] and then, um, he went back to London. He was really paranoid about the fact that he'd been sick. Um, And then a year later, I got the phone call from my sister. Uh, and Neil had a dream. He had a dream. When he went before he went back to London, he had a dream that, um he saw my father. My father was dying of cancer at the time. Neil had come home to see my dad, [00:44:30] and he had a dream that, um they were both in hospital. And Neil and Neil was in one bed dying, and my father was in the other bed dying. And this dream totally freaked Neil out. And I just remember being with him at the back of Alston, this horrible, bleak place where you know, he'd spent some of his 10 years, Um, saying, Oh, Neil, you know, it's just a dream. Don't be crazy. There's nothing wrong with you. You're fine. You know, Just go. He was going back to London to check into that [00:45:00] Terrence Higgins sort of hospital place. Um, he was he was afraid, and I was doing my best to talk him out out of it. And so he went off back to London. I was angry at him for sort of leaving me with, you know, Dad dying and just getting off back to his great lifestyle in London. And, um yeah, so I was angry with him and he left. And then, um you know, of course, I went over there. And But anyhow, I got a phone call a year later saying, um, it was my sister [00:45:30] who was also in London at the time, saying Neil's been admitted to hospital, and I thought, Wow, that's weird. And I immediately thought motorbike accident or car accident? Um, they say if you can get over here in 24 hours, you'll see him alive again. And I thought must have must have been in an accident. And I said, What's wrong? You know what What are they talking about? She said he's got AIDS, and I'm like, Oh, you know, I just couldn't you know, it was like, [00:46:00] couldn't comprehend it, really? So I sort of staggered down to a travel agent to try to get a ticket over. And my mother and I went over there and it was like two days, three days before you could get there and every hour that ticked away. You know, we had six hours in Singapore and it was just horrible. And, um, we got to the hospital, he's in hospital and we got there. And somehow I just remember running through the ward and finally [00:46:30] getting to his bed and he looked the picture of health. Um, David was there. It was the first time I met David. Oh, no, it wasn't the first time I'd met him here before. And, um, he was waiting for me. He had his last words to say to me he had this oxygen mask on and he had to. I couldn't. So I went right up to his ear and while he spoke something in my ear and he said, Um, he said something and I said, No I didn't get it. Can you? You know, say it again. And he said [00:47:00] he said it again, and I'm like, because he couldn't, you know, he was on oxygen and he said it again. And I'm like, Oh, fuck, I didn't get it. I'm gonna have to ask him to say it again. And he I said, Neil, I didn't get it. Can you tell me again, What is your What is that? And Neil said it again, and I didn't get it. And I said, No. I'm sorry, Neil. You know, like, I didn't get it. Can you tell me? And he goes, Oh, fuck. You know, fuck off. You know, [00:47:30] for fuck's sake and put the mask back on and slipped into unconsciousness. And he died an hour later, so I never I never understood. We were always very close. And I knew that one of the things that he he knew he was dying for three days. You know, David said he just turned his face against the wall and, you know, and that was it. And called for the priest, funnily enough. So it was the old Irish Catholic, you know, when [00:48:00] it came down to it. He he went back to, you know, having a faith, some faith in his God, And, um he would have been thinking of me and mum, and he would have been thinking of how I was gonna go on. You know, it's like because we were close and he would have thought, How's Jane gonna kind of, you know as well as, of course, and his mum. How is she gonna get on without me? You know, So he would have had something to [00:48:30] say. But I, I guess I pretty much know what it would have been. Um, so yeah. So it was very quick. Neil just had the flu. A year after the cold sores in the back of the throat, he was declining. He was a bit sickly, you know, he'd gone off to the carnival in Venice and Venice was to feed a couple of weeks before the month before. He wasn't there. He had a flu, but he got the flu, went home from work, got pneumonia. That was on the Friday, [00:49:00] got pneumonia on the first day. Got the test done, told you he was HIV positive pneumonia. Three days, four days later, he died, so it was very, very quick. He didn't have that awful drawn out so really, really sick process, which we were all grateful for. So so was it because, um, there weren't, uh, HIV tests at the time? [00:49:30] No. He could have got the test. He refused. He didn't want to know. He couldn't have handled a positive result. And I suspect that possibly a lot of people like him. There was the test available. There was the the the centre up in, um, main street in Newtown. I can't remember what it was called. You could go and get free tests there from pretty early days, but he wouldn't. He was too afraid to get the test. I suspect maybe he had Maybe he'd had [00:50:00] and early, you know, relationship that was vulnerable. I suspect that maybe he had, you know, like in those very early days in street, I remember hearing, um, that he'd had a relationship with an American man, which, you know, would have made him very, very vulnerable, at least to his fears. You know, his mental fears, Um, and that would have been a lot early, So he was just too afraid [00:50:30] the test was freely available and people, you know, men very encouraged to come and take it. But he just was too afraid of the result and knew that he he didn't want to face having a positive result if he was. And II. I guess the prognosis in those early days wasn't it was It was terminal up until quite a while after Neil died. I think so. He died in 1990. It was possibly, um, [00:51:00] 97 98 before you started to hear of drugs that could at least keep it in a bay. Yeah, and we were actually recording this interview on the ninth of April, and he died on the seventh of April 1990. So that's 26 years ago on Thursday, I think, Which seems an incredibly long time ago. But it doesn't. In other words, it doesn't. [00:51:30] Yes, He died in London in Islington Hospital, and we, um, and was cremated at Golders Green Crematorium. We had a little ceremony there and his ashes were scattered in Mount, which was an area he loved. One of the ways of remembering, um, and celebrating is through the, uh, New Zealand AIDS memorial quilt. Can you tell me how his quilt panel came about? Um, [00:52:00] I think it was the momentum of Kerry and his great mates, Kerry and Steve Kerry. Yeah. And, um, and Bailey. Watson Bailey was a Wellington cinematographer who lived up the road here in Glenmore Street. Um, yeah, I. I was kind of David. David came home, his partner came home with me here to this house, and David stayed the first year after Neil's death. He stayed in Wellington here, Um, and I remember feeling pretty sort of like shocked [00:52:30] and, you know, wasn't that sort of aware of what was going on? But I remember his friend's cat hall, his great friend Kat Hall and Sally Hunter and Bailey and Kerry and for getting the momentum together to make the AIDS quilt. And I remember going to a house in Mount Victoria, Oriental Bay. I can't remember the name of the woman there, Megan, and having sewing bees there and those guys getting the photos together and [00:53:00] and, um, getting during the organisation and me and Dave just turning up and doing some quilting. This photo here, um, that would have been taken at it was taken at Saint Patrick's primary school. I think not. So what was it like? Um, making the panel? Yeah, it was, um it was It was great. It was kind of it was nice to be involved in a [00:53:30] kind of communal, warm, tactile, memorialish type activity. Yeah, Um, I still remember. It was early after Neil died, I think when we made the quilt and I still still remember just being in a state of kind of disbelief and shock that we were doing this, you know, um, so I don't kind of remember it as a pleasant experience for me. Um, [00:54:00] you know, just it's kind of in your face, really, That this is a memorial activity and that Neil's dead, you know? But, um, it was it was nice. And I'm really I'm really glad that we did it and that the quilt is now something that travels and is seen and as, um, as a memorial. Yeah, I think it was a great idea for people. I remember going down to a a laying out in, um botanical gardens [00:54:30] in the early nineties and going to the memorial ceremonies that were held candle lit vigils Yeah. Some of those candlelight vigils in Wellington. The beacons of hope looked amazing. Yeah, they were beautiful. Yeah, I remember one down on the waterfront, I think another one at Saint Mary's of the Angels, where people would call out the names of people who died, won a parliament. Yeah, [00:55:00] they were beautiful. Very atmospheric. I think I remember a march down Willow Street, too. Yeah. So how did the family, um, respond to Neil's death? Um oh, my mother for my mother, it was the second death in two years. She'd lost her husband, and then she lost Neil. It was devastating for her. Um, absolutely devastating for her. Um, [00:55:30] it was devastating. Yeah, it was just devastating. He was always, you know, like Neil was a very charismatic, sort of forthright, strong, happy, positive individual. Um, I'm very aware of myself of, um how much my kids kind of miss out by not having them in their lives. You know, being the kind of the, um, uncle benefactor that he would have been, you know, in the hands on sort of great sort of, [00:56:00] you know, person to have in their lives. Um, the wider family. Hm. kind of shocked. But as I said by the comment made by my uncle, you know, not surprised. There's only one way his lifestyle could lead, you know, Um, so that was pretty heavy. It was heavy. It was heavy. His his scattering of ashes was just dive I cat, [00:56:30] his friend and my mother. I think, um, I remember. Maybe on the first anniversary, putting a a notice. Kind of kind of a, uh, what would you call it? A provocative notice. This not Memoriam. And the grave Greymouth Evening star. Um, I don't know. I suppose I just felt angry at my family's response, which was kind of [00:57:00] Oh, you know, there there wasn't anything they could do. I had some, you know, some some of my cousins. Everybody got that. It was a tragedy. You know? Everybody loved Neil when you say provocative. What? What was provocative? I think I put a death note at memorial notice in saying kissing doesn't kill Ignorance does. And Memorial of Neil Costello. [00:57:30] So, in the usual way. You know Costello, Neil. So it would have attracted the attention of one. Yeah, it was quite hard after my, um, brother's death. and, you know, like, of course, you had a life insurance policy. He signed up for his work at his graphic design agency in London and signed away a life insurance policy for £100,000. And three months later, he [00:58:00] was dead. And, of course, they cashed in on this, um, life insurance policy. So the family got £300,000. And, of course, it all went to my mother. And I knew that that wasn't what Neil would have wanted. So I fought my mother for that money. I fought my family to get a legacy that looked like what it would look like if Neil had been able to make [00:58:30] a will, which meant that was the main beneficiary, you know, because that's what he would have wanted. And that's what to get what straight people got. So that was a hard thing to do, and I won. I got it. Of course. Um, you know, my mother got her share and Neil married, um, a lesbian woman in London, so of course she got her share. Um, and then my three sisters got you know, we got a very [00:59:00] small share. We got £1000 each, I think. But as I wanted I, I was only doing I felt it was my obligation to do what Neil would have wanted. So David ended up getting the what part? What? What? We agreed with the partnership. My mother was very unhappy about that. You know, she thought, um, that I just wanted the money for myself and David to run off and have a great [00:59:30] lifestyle in Paris or somewhere. I never got any of that. I never got that money went to David and I never got one cent of it, you know, And that wasn't the deal, but I had to fight for that. My mother died 10 years later. And when I look back now, from the perspective of a of a 58 year old woman, I wondered to myself, you know, was that the right thing to do? I mean, I. I was kind of in shock, you know, [01:00:00] But I very clearly had some of the same fight with my own issues that Neil did. And, um, that for me, was part of taking the fight. You know, gay rights, you know, equal rights under the law. If Neil was straight. That wouldn't have happened. The money would have gone to his partner, but because he wasn't he was treated like a child. And the money went to his parent. Um, [01:00:30] so, um, you know, I wonder whether that was the right thing to do, Whether I would have done that now, like, hurt my mother in that way cause such pain to the family. But, um, I think I did the right thing. I think I did. Maybe I didn't. At the time, I definitely thought I was doing the right thing. But, um, yeah, so things like that, you know, issues like that, you know, still continuing the fight on Neil's behalf in the aftermath of [01:01:00] his death, you know? Um, yeah, just looking at the, um the panel now for Neil and, um yeah, it just reminds me of how how people's energy still riffles after they after they depart. Um, both in, um, you know, really hard ways, but also, um, really positive ways. I mean, I just think it's wonderful to be able to celebrate him 26 years later and [01:01:30] and have his energy kind of bring us together and have his energy show. Um, your Children, You know, um, what a wonderful guy he was as well. Absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely. Well, I think the best thing I can say is my son there. Yeah, he's 12 today. He, um, like yesterday. He, um he had a dress up day at school. You know, they had this crazy costume day. So, [01:02:00] Reggie, Reggie loves to dress up in dresses, and he's got a green tutu that he likes. And I work with long hair that he made. And so Reggie can go to school, and he can. I said to him, What are you gonna wear for dress up at school? He says, I'm wearing my tutu and my wig so he can go to his primary school class and he can dress in his tutu and work if he wants. And nobody says this thing, you know? Well, do they say things, Richie? They might mightn't they, [01:02:30] but he doesn't. They know they're not allowed to say things, and he doesn't care. You don't care, do you, Reg? Well, like, sometimes I'll say sometimes they'll say that I'm like a girl, but I don't care. Why don't you care? Because I don't know, because you just don't care. I'm a boy because you're a boy and boys are allowed to be boys and do whatever they like. [01:03:00] Hey, yeah. So it's a It's a different world, thanks to Neil and all his friends. And, um, it's just great that I think Reggie must have. Obviously, he's got Neil looking after him, and he's got some of that strength and permission. He's living a different life than what, Neil, You know, Neil could never wear a dress to school, you know, on Saint Patrick's Day, he wore his tutu to the Irish club, [01:03:30] looked beautiful. Some people had a bit of a you know, some of the boys were looking at him a bit strange. But when this little girl came up to him, the seven year old and said, Snap, we're in the same clothes. Yeah, And you know, if boys want to wear dresses, they can. If girls wanna wear boy's clothes, they can know it's a free world. Anybody that says anything about [01:04:00] it. What are you doing? Um, you I don't know. Go and punch them in the nose. Yeah, aye. Telling me they need to overhaul their attitudes. They need to look at their attitudes. Get out of that box.
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