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My name is, uh, Robin, and, um, today I've just, uh we've just handed over the town at the museum. My name is Jurgen Hoffman. And it was just a a fantastic experience to be here for, um, for Carmen and for Carmen to be recognised in such a fashion at, um, at te Papa museum with the, uh, Paul theory that we had this morning. So what's in the collection? What? What has been given to te papa? There's quite a number of, um of outfits that Carmen chose. [00:00:30] Um, because it was Robin and Carmen that, uh, went back to her, uh, her apartment. And, uh, Carmen was choosing choosing the Ides. This one can go to the Salvation Army. This can go to Te Papa Museum, and I want to take this one to the nursing home with me and this one you can throw away. So it was quite it was quite well done, and, uh, and she had and she had a great time. Uh, I think it was Still, it was a time of mixed feeling for her, and but she got through that. We got plenty of plenty of dresses, head pieces, jewellery, [00:01:00] from Carmen and handbags from Carmen and lots of little knickknacks that she picked up and said, Tepa, can you describe some of your favourite items? Oh, my favourite items were, um Well, she fascinated me. Actually, she can go into a $2 shop, and she can buy, um, Christmas, Um, tinsel. And she could make something out of it that will look like a million dollars [00:01:30] is the way Carmen used it. You know, everything was simple with her, and she could make it look so spectacular. So it was the Christmas tinsel that that was my favourite for me because I had a bit of think time. It was the blue dress, the blue sequin dress, which was actually, um, the only, uh, the only dress we were able to had made for measure for Carmen. And, uh, I'm glad she wore that to her 140th celebration. And, uh, and it was just lovely a pleasure [00:02:00] to do. How did how did you both meet Carmen? That was 11, 12 years ago, Robin Hart. We decided to have a commitment ceremony and a friend of ours. Rocky brought Carmen as his guest, so we met Carmen there and Robin and Carmen connected them straight away because they came from the same region in New Zealand. Well, when I first met Carmen, she says, Where are you from? And I said, I'm from And she said, [00:02:30] Oh, I'm from there, too. Well, we must be with our sisters and, um, yeah, I think both of us coming from the same region, which is King Country District. We both realised that we had the same interest, and and our upbringing and, uh, the way our mothers raised us, um, and both the way [00:03:00] and being gay was an open issue for us both. And, yeah, they had a wonderful relationship with car. What was it like attending today's? Um, it was quite emotional attending today's poor fit. It's been two years. It's been a long time in the making. And, um, and it's great to be here to get a sense of what, um, of what Carmen meant to the, um, to the New [00:03:30] Zealand people. And, uh, the recognition was just, um, um, breathtaking. I feel Oh, it's hard to explain. I'm feeling quite overwhelmed. Um, like you can see, it's been a bumpy ride. I was saved for the last two years and feeling quite, um, quite relieved in a way that we, um it's now her. Her is now [00:04:00] in the museum and extremely happy. Very, very happy. If you give me a glass of champagne, I don't know what what happened. So I was extremely happy. Thank you. What do you think Carmen's legacy is? Oh, that's a That's a tough one. But I think it's, um um be yourself. Be a good person, and, um, follow your dreams. [00:04:30] Well, mine would be as Carmen she believed in Don't hurt other people. Be kind to each other, help each other. If you've got something a little bit more, give it to others. And don't be selfish. You know, those were the wonderful, um, warm kindness that Carmen had, and it was all about sharing. Share your knowledge. If you you you've got a little bit of Well, why not share [00:05:00] that and and pass it around? Yeah. My name is Francis Deon Rupe, and I am a brother of Ever since she was in Wellington here, it has always been her dream that all her garments and all her trees they were to be given to the, uh, uh, the museum in Wellington here and on her passing [00:05:30] and come to this day that has reached Can you describe the this morning? Uh, it it it was massive. Uh, the people that were here really enjoyed everything. Uh, they were pleased to see that the, uh, all the had come into the, uh into the museum and a lot of people that she had been with for many, many years. They [00:06:00] spoke proudly about her. What does it mean for you and the family to have, um, Carmen's material here? Uh, it it it it's really massive. Uh, we are very, very pleased. Uh, that it is that it is going to go on display in the museum here and for you. What was the most moving part of this morning's ceremony? Uh, it was the speeches that were given out, and [00:06:30] things that she had dreamt about many years ago have actually come to fruition at this stage, mainly in regards to the gay people. Her legacy, really, I think, is everybody come to the museum here and just have a look at it because it will be on display all her necklaces, all her gowns, and there will be also write ups about her. Hi, my name is Amanda Lahore, and today [00:07:00] is the first of November 2013. We have just witnessed the Tonga that have come from Sydney. There's a whole contingent of people that have come from from, uh, to and they presented about 13 items that they're gifting to the to Papa and I didn't realise this, but to Papa actually have to [00:07:30] accept the gift or acknowledge that it is a gift. This was done. Apparently it was done three months ago. So this is a huge thing for New Zealand, and what it is is when Before Carmen died, she got a group of her friends together and she said, I don't want people to forget me. So she picked 13 items and she said, I want you to give this to New Zealand and to te Papa, and it was interesting. Um, one of the said that Carmen loved Papa [00:08:00] because it was a free place to get into. I cracked up that's so typically her. But, um, the accolades Taiana gave her an amazing talk about how she was a trend setter. She was, uh, an innovator. And for me and as a drag queen, Um, I've talked to the likes of Carmen and Donna Jenny, Ricky Love, and they've taught me that they walked in some horrific [00:08:30] shadows in darkness. They were abused psychologically, physically and mentally, and because they struggled through all of that in the sixties through to the seventies. By the time I came to light in the year 2000, I view the girls from Carmen's era like this. They walked in the shadows so that I can bask in the sun. And I'm looking at Carmen's legacy. She run for mayor, and she, um she wanted to decriminalise [00:09:00] homosexuality. She wanted to make prostitution. Um, legal. Bye, honey. That's J. Glamorgan. She wanted to make prostitution legal. She wanted to look up. Um, there's about five points. I can't remember them all now. Um, and at the time, people were saying that the sky would fall down Moral depravity. Um, New Zealand will never be the same. We would never recover from this. That was in 1979 [00:09:30] when she went to run for mayor. It's now 2013. Everything that she wanted to make legal happened about 10 years ago. So 15 years after she had introduced it, it's all happened and we can guarantee. In New Zealand, the sky didn't fall in as said. So I'm just I'm really humbled today. People like Uncle Mickey, who's sitting there in a sequin blue Monte shirt. I think [00:10:00] on one finger he has approximately three rings. So on five fingers he'd be wearing about 30 rings all up. His is made out of crochet, um, crochet wool and colours that look like the Miami Sound machine has exploded all over him. Then he's got his traditional Maori headband on with one single dangling shark skin shark's tooth earring. The likes of Uncle Mickey [00:10:30] have set trends for a lot of the dry community. A lot of the gay transgender, um, intersex community. So being in the midst of people like him is so humbling. The, um, the that the, um, chairman for Papa gave amazing, Absolutely amazing. Can you describe, uh, what is the the atmosphere here? I think there's a lot of, um, camaraderie, a lot of old friends that have haven't seen [00:11:00] each other for years. There are a lot of new girls like myself that are being introduced to the ones that walked in the shadows. Um, all up, if you If you look around the room basically there's Chinese. There's Malaysian. There's French people. David Hartnell has brought a lot of people in. Um, Georgina Baer was here just a moment ago. Robina from Auckland's come down Karen and Petty, um, mother from K Road. Mother Kay. It's a whole conglomerate, [00:11:30] a whole mix of heterosexual, um, gay GL BT community GL BT I community. Um, there's a lot of artists here, like a lot of painters, singers, all coming to pay tribute to one solid, upstanding New Zealand icon. What do you think Carmen's legacy is? I This is just now, personally, for me. Her legacy is just because she's known as a New Zealand [00:12:00] icon. I know that I'm safe walking in her shadow. I know that nothing will happen to me because it's already happened to her. I know that I'm free to walk around in a Black Cooper vintage sequined frock. 2014 collection, by the way. So it hasn't been released yet, but I know that I can walk around in this frock and I'm safe. And amongst my family and amongst people that are GL BT I I know I'm safe. But I also know in [00:12:30] the streets of Wellington I think Wellington is the safest city in the world to live in. It's very open and very accepting of so many people. What? How are you finding today? Very moving, very moving. And as you say to actually have that Oh, just just the range of people and the diversity. Um, but also, to see the the kind of love and and compassion, um is really special. And coming from a European prospect perspective, [00:13:00] did you understand the Maori? I didn't understand the words, but I think I understood the feeling the the level of respect for Carmen and the collection and and the and, um and kindness, um that they were real treasures that were being handed over I. I found it exactly the same. I think the most moving part and I, I must admit, I was watching you. I was watching people as we were being welcomed in [00:13:30] to the actual which is, uh and I watched the European people's faces and the eyes got bigger and glazed over. And I think coming growing up Maori I was accustomed to it. But it my mind immediately was flooded with all the people that I had lost. Like my parents, my sisters, brothers, uncles, aunties and some of the that they sung or some of the that was spoken was so old and steeped [00:14:00] in so much mana and tradition. I couldn't see very much because the eye started to cloud over and when I looked around I could see that it was like a a gentle humility from everybody, regardless of race. Regardless of what was being spoken, there was an intrinsic spiritual that just like a quiet hush, came over the people. And slowly you watched row by row and people were bowing their heads as a symbol of respect. And it testified to me the true [00:14:30] mana and the true essence of what Maori is on Maori is, and also Carmen was a strong advocate for her Maori people and for her um GL BT I community. This is the thing that I out of everything that happened today out of all the people that I've met, that's the thing that I think I'll hold the most. Because in just that, there must have been about 100 and 30 people that were coming in to the on the coming on to the [00:15:00] which is the area. And there was not one of them that felt separate. It was like this cloud of you belong here. This is We are all family. We all bleed. We all love. We all cry. And we now are all family. Whether you're heterosexual, ga gay, bi transgender, there was no differentiation. And, uh, that was the most humbling thing for me. I looked around and I thought, This [00:15:30] is amazing. And I I was I've been proud all my life to be Maori. This was one of the proudest moments to unite a group of people for one person. We all come together for one person. Little did I realise how this would unite a multiplicity of people. Oh, and, um, it's great to be here at papa for, um, the gifting of the of Carmen's. Uh, [00:16:00] I think there was a real feeling of unity and love in the room. Um, it was great to be here for this special occasion, and, um, I look forward to the exhibition coming out when it does. When did you first meet Carmen? Um, I met Carmen 30 30 about 35 years ago, Uh, when she was visiting Auckland. Um, I met her in a bar and we had a chat, and, uh, we shared some drinks. And then over the years, our relationship fostered in our friendship group. What was the most emotional [00:16:30] part this morning for you? Um, the emotion part for me, I guess, was sort of the actual carrying of the I was fortunate enough to be able to carry one of them through, but, um, just the calibre of the speakers that were in the room this morning. Um, the minister, I think that she had it spot on. Um, what the mayor said I thought was fantastic. And, um, I guess the setting, too, was very befitting because Carmen was from Wellington. Um, it was a beautiful setting. So immediately arriving [00:17:00] at Papa set the scene for something that was, um, going to be as a very special morning. I'm Karen. Um, it was a privilege to be here to Papa with all of us old sisters that to bring Carmen's Tonga back to New Zealand. Um, I first met Carmen when I was 14 when I came to Wellington, which is nearly 45 years ago. Um, so Carmen and I have been long time friends. Can can you describe some of the things that that that have been gifted [00:17:30] today? Oh, yeah. So Carmen is most people that knew Carmen. Carmen was into voodoo, and I see her voodoo dolls being gifted. And she was also right into Egyptians. And there's a kind of an Egyptian head and some of her clothes. So you were saying that you first met her when you were 13. 14? Where where did you meet? At the coffee lounge. So I grew up in a small country town. Didn't quite know what I was. But [00:18:00] I I knew what I was but didn't have a name. And then I saw Carmen in the paper at Trentham races with the boobs out here, and I thought that's me. Hitchhiked to Wellington, knocked on her door. And the rest is history. Can you tell me what that first meeting was like? Um, she didn't actually think I was She thought I was female. Um, and from Then on, I worked at the balcony. Uh, sorry. At the coffee lounge. Back then it was I'm not sure if it was actually illegal [00:18:30] to wear women's clothes, but the police used to harass us to the max, like in street at the coffee bar. They'd kind of be waiting for us to step out of the cab to arrest us. Um, but looking back on it, it was probably a lot more unified. The what it is today. Um, because the only place you could go was either the the balcony coffee bar or another transgender person. Chris, we took our own. The sunset. [00:19:00] I mean, times were very different then. So men were men and women were women, and there was no in between. And I mean, way back then, the homo homosexual was illegal as well. So So Carmen paved the way for all of us, you know, and I think even for lesbian gay, she paved the way. Yeah. So what do you most remember of Carmen? Um, I remember after we'd finished work at the coffee bar, we'd go down to, um, Lorraine's [00:19:30] Cake kitchen, which was in College Street, buy cakes and then go back to the coffee bar, have cups to chat. Yeah, it's probably and I remember the most. And what about Carmen's legacy? What? What do you think she'll be remembered for? Um, she was very honest. Um, and just probably a Trailblazer. Yeah, she paved the way for all of us. And [00:20:00] and it's It's really bizarre because Wellington used to be the make of the trains and probably in Wellington. Now, there's only four of us left of the original. Yeah, so everybody's slowly passing on. It is quite sad, but yeah, up. My name is Donna Demilo. And, um, we're here at te papa museum today to, um, [00:20:30] put some Tonga in of Carmen. That's her costumes and different things. And it was a really lovely day. And, uh, when we came up into the marae, I felt a great, um, feeling of, um, love and support for her. It was very moving. Yeah. Can you describe some of the the the items that have come into today? Uh, yes. There was a lovely, uh, I carried a skull cap with beads and feathers on it [00:21:00] with silver. There was a lovely silver, um, dress. Um there was a pink dress with one of her dolls. There was the, um um, head. There was also, uh, her maori. Um and, um, yes, there was a and and her beautiful necklaces and different things were brought in. Yeah, it was very nice. What was the most moving part for you? The most moving [00:21:30] part was when we walked into the and when they welcomed us on that. And that was just to me was the most moving part. All of it was very nice, but that was the most move that brought me to tears. Almost. Yeah, it was. I just thought at last, you know, our sister is here, you know, our is here, you know, she's here, and she's she would have been absolutely, absolutely Yeah. As as as Gen says, Carmen shines again one more day, but this [00:22:00] is sort of the finality of it all. I really believe so. But it'll be nice when the exhibition comes out. Um, well, my name is, um, the first time I met Carmen, um was on the very night that the sunk and, um, we arrived at Carmen's International Coffee Lounge, which was full of Americans. We'd just come in from the railway station where everyone gathered when the wahine sunk. And, um, I arrived with my one [00:22:30] red stiletto Italian, I might add. And, um, Carmen told me it wasn't good enough to work in one stiletto. But anyhow, um, we did what we did. And, um yeah, and that was my first time I met Carmen. And then the next time I met Carmen was when, um, one night when I got off stage at the balcony and Carmen told me to, um, go home and get educated because I'd never be a showgirl. And so that's exactly [00:23:00] what I did. And now I have a PhD in psychology. And so I owe all this to Carmen. And over the years, I've, um, car and lived around the corner from me in Sydney. And, um, the thing I miss most about Carmen now is our little afternoon tea chats. We used to go to the observatory hotel where they'd have a three tier cake plate with tiny cakes and sandwiches, pot of tea, and Carmen loved it. And, [00:23:30] um, during my working years, um, I took Carmen there on a regular basis, and the two of us sat there like two little princesses. Um, having afternoon tea. And one of the great pleasures was after she died. Erin and Robin took me there, and we sat at the same table that Carmen and I used to sit at. Yeah. Emotional. Yeah. So I've had a long history with Carmen. Yeah, she was a very much [00:24:00] a Trailblazer and very much, but she was a good friend. I don't want to talk about the publicity of Carmen. I want to talk about the private car. She was a good friend. Very good friend to me. If you were to describe her as a friend, what words would you use? Compassion. Great listener. Always had her hearing aid turned up even though she didn't wear one. You know, it was like she was there. She'd listen. She'd never invalidate you. And she used to watch out. She [00:24:30] used to. The only thing I used to hear her say was Don't you get into those drugs that ruins all the girls don't get into the drugs pen, don't get into the drugs. I think that's a pretty supportive person. And she was so compassionate towards the, um, transgender drug users in Sydney. Very compassionate, you know, very compassionate on the street and in private with them. Yeah. In fact, I think [00:25:00] she was quite a mentor. You know, to them, the thing that strikes me about Carmen is that she seems to be able to work on so many different levels in society. You know, she she she crosses all kind of stratas. Um, yeah, and I think that the diversity, um of her friends was just incredible. I don't know anyone that has the diversity of friends that Carmen had from designers to politicians to, you know, to street hookers, to [00:25:30] to girls managers, you know, it was just unbelievable, You know that? That, um yeah, the diversity of her friends. Even at her funeral, the diversity of her friends was just incredible. Absolutely incredible. And then when I came to Wellington, I came and asked me to come to Wellington with her on her 70th birthday when we were having the big party here. So I came not knowing what to expect and to go to her 70th [00:26:00] birthday down here at the boat shed. And the diversity of people there was just incredible And the way that everybody could be themselves knowing that they wouldn't be judged. And that was, you know, um, everyone from every walk in life they knew that they could be themselves because Carmen would not judge. And I think that was probably the key to her entire life. You know, that that whole thing about her was that nonjudgmental? [00:26:30] Yeah, that real, non judgmental, um, mentality that she had, Uh uh, Yeah, and she didn't just say it. She practised it. And that's the difference. You know, she actually practised, you know, that nonjudgmental thing instead of just that that front that people have for publicity reasons. Carmen was never like that. Love the publicity. But she was herself. You know, um, which is quite incredible [00:27:00] that someone could be so famous for being themselves, which is I think that's that. That's the message. I hope that Carmen Instals in the youth of today when they have an exhibition here of Carmen. I hope that's the theme. Be yourself. And this is you know, anything can happen if you be yourself. And I think you know, that was the essence of who Carmen was. And that's why she became famous because she was herself. What you saw is what you [00:27:30] got there was There was they say, the show girl, she was a showgirl. But off stage, she was not a showgirl. You know, she still wore the glamour and the glitz and all that down the street. Um, yeah, but she was still herself. Yeah, and, yeah, be yourself. That's what's important in life, I think. And that's what she, you know, used to tell us all just through being calm and not because she used to tell us to do that, but by being calm. And, you know, [00:28:00] she was just a perfect example of who she was. Yeah. Hm. So where do you think that strength of character and that strength of, um, believing in yourself and just being yourself comes from? I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know. No idea. I think she used to draw a lot of, um power from her higher power or a power greater than herself. Not saying that that was her god because she was a Christian. [00:28:30] But her mother, I think, played a very big role in her life. And quite often she used to say to me. 00, I think Mum disapproved of that or Oh, I think Mum would love that. Um, she quite often say things like which made me think that a power greater than herself in her life like a guardian angel, you know? And I used to say to her, you know, especially because I was by her, um, right up until she died. And she said to me a couple of times, you know, at the hospital, [00:29:00] um, you know that she felt the presence of her mother, and I used to say, It's your mom putting her wings around you, darling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What has this today meant to you? A lot? Um, Carmen went to Australia, and it's just nice to come home. And this is my home. This is my homeland. As Carmen would say, Go home. Twinkle [00:29:30] your own home soil between your toes, which I do physically every time I come home. And, um, yeah, it's just nice to come here and know that Carmen's not forgotten. And she is still around today, um, as that a credible spiritual leader for transgender people. Um, yeah, and And when I walked in there today. I know she was here. I know she was here. I know that. [00:30:00] Yeah. And I think Robin and I have done her proud and the way they've seen her wishes through, um, Because I knew what her wishes were. I heard them from Carmen, and I just think they've done her proud, um, to get over the hurdles and all the rest of it and actually be here today and see those wishes fulfilled. You know, I think they've done her proud. As far as I'm concerned, I'm you know, I think it's wonderful. And it's nice to see so many people here from Sydney. Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:30] What's been the most moving part of the the day for you so far? Walking in there besides someone who I happen to know that Carmen totally admired. And that was Georgie Bayer to walk in there with two pos of Carmen's, which I had touched, um, did a dance once with, um, showed Cal and showed off. Should I say how I could work two boys? What a shame she didn't have four. Because I can work. Four learned that at primary [00:31:00] school, you know, and, um, to carry those in beside Georgie. Bayer was an extreme great honour for me. I feel very complete knowing that I walked in with those two boys with someone that come and had so much respect and honour for him. Yeah, Yeah. She just thought Georgie Bale was sliced bread. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So that was wonderful. That was quite an honour for [00:31:30] me. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. What do you think Car's legacy is going to be? Or just someone who who, um, wanted, um, wanted everything And, um, all all this legislation she want? Yeah, I think she'll just go down as someone, um, like the sisters. Um, you know, the beginning of suffragette. She was the beginning of I won't say transgenderism, but I'll say she was the beginning of, [00:32:00] um, New Zealand growing up and becoming, um, because back in the fifties and sixties, we're so far behind the rest of the world. We're not anymore. We're not anymore. And that's because of people like her, you know, like Carmen and and and, um, Kate Shepherd. You know, they're all great, Great New Zealanders, um, that have now placed us in a [00:32:30] position where we're in the forefront of the world. We're world leaders in human rights, social justice, you know? And Helen Clark, you know, the honourable Helen Clark. She made very sure of that. And her legacy of social justice. Um, and I'm not saying that because I'm political because I'm not. Yeah, I'm not political at all, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think that's what Carmen will go down on. She's definitely written in a history book. There's no question about that. [00:33:00] But I be It's It's like that speech today. You know, she wanted, um equality, Um, for everyone. Lesbian, gay, transgender or transsexuals. We were called in those days. Um, and she wanted, uh, prostitution legalised. She just wanted all these things that we now got and the same with Kate Shepherd and other Trailblazers. I mean, they want all the staff and believe that, as we [00:33:30] you know, as humans, we are entitled to them. But we don't get them until years later. And sometimes we don't get them until these people die, you know? Um yeah, and that's what I think. Carmen will go down and always remember it as as not just someone who participated, but someone who lead. Yeah. Yeah, because she didn't participate. Carmen never participated. She led. She was a leader, not a participator. Yeah, [00:34:00] well, I'm I My name is Pasi Pai. Daniel Silva. And, uh, I came this morning to pay homage to to Carmen because she she started, uh, at my place. I used to own the Purple Onion in Vivian Street, and Carmen started from there. She was selling the coffees and and everything When I had the drag show. When I first opened the drag show, I was the first one that opened in New Zealand, [00:34:30] for that matter. And then that's we've been friends for over 50 years. You know, I was surprised to see very few friends are left because I'm 79 years old. Very These girls, you know, and they they're in their sixties already. But they started at my place when they were only about 14. 15. You know that they most of them, like Donna, the other terminal. Otherwise, there's not many people that I remember. This is how I went to America for the last 32 [00:35:00] years. I just came back, you know, not very long ago, but it's I always like I've always loved her, you know, because she she came to Australia when I was living over there. And what do you call it? I talked with her. And every year when I lived in America, I always come and stay and talk with her and take her to lunch and everything you know. So she's been a friend for all these years. You know, I don't think anyone can say anything funny about Carbon Car was a was hilarious person to know, You know, she's [00:35:30] got personality. Plus in any other ways, you know, in those days as as big as life itself. You know? That's what Carin is like, you know? How did you meet? I met her in Sydney when she came to Sydney before This is a long time before she came and and and go for a But I knew she was only young in those days. She was 17, 16, 17 in those days in city because I I was working. I hope they don't tell anybody [00:36:00] this. I was working at girls and and at a purple onion in Sydney. That's how I got the name to open my club here. Purple on. When I left Sydney to come here, my oldest son was born over there. Then we came here and and, uh what, You call and came here and opened a purple onion in those days. But I met over there when she Oh, I remember something real funny when when was done. She was working in a in A as a waitress in one of the coffee shops [00:36:30] in the cross there, you know? And I remember all the guys in those days because those days drag queens weren't much in those days, you know, funny. But Carmen was serving. And then the guy one guy says, You knew? Yes, that's how car talk. Yes. And I said, What's your name? Is it car and the guy come and carry on and do a job? And she came back in and said, Come and do it She said, Come and get it. And [00:37:00] those are the funniest. The the things that I remember her by is being, uh, a a wonderful person as she is, you know, she's nothing. She doesn't hide anything from anybody. She was so sweet to everyone that she knows, You know, she met that and there's nothing else. What else can you say about? You know, When I came to New Zealand, they made the entourage of coming from Sydney the ones that was over there. They all came here at the time because I opened [00:37:30] the purple is with a drag show, first one in New Zealand. Our club was the first one opened in Wellington anyway, and in Auckland we were about the same time as has opened in Auckland. But there's not very much that I could say about today's today's thing about when I look, there's only her and Donna and only very few people and that I came with it was a police force in those. Those are about the only people that was around at that time when we first started out, you know, there was hardly [00:38:00] anybody, didn't even have a place. She started it from my place, make money to open a coffee shop and stuff like this, you know? But my club was the was a let out for all the queens that came over here, all the drag queens and they all come to my place, you know? And it was terrible because when when we first opened, then the kid, My son was young and those things, but they used to ride it on a on a You see how easy it was when come out easy there the people write things. [00:38:30] Nasty things on the foot part, you know, because the place when I took over was only just a small coffee bar. No name coffee shop. So we opened as a no name coffee shop. But it didn't take me long. Two months later, I changed it to the audience, you know, and start having a show, have a show every night of the week, except for, um, Sunday. We have a, uh We We have a, uh what? You call it a talent show on Sunday so that all the new ones do drag queens like Nicky and [00:39:00] all them. They all auditioned for those days in those days, you know, they all came down and and and auditioned and work in the club in those days, you know? But that's what the humble beginning that Carmen done. I always she always know that you remember those days when I used to be at the and, you know, used to I always have a little talk with her and and that's all. But what is this? How would you How would you describe Carmen? Carmen was a good friend, and everybody [00:39:30] else is sort of, uh, feed off her car. It was an open book. Is an open book of a very loving person And, uh, what you call it, and And I think a lot of people took advantage of her when she first opened the clubs and she died the way she died. And it's only the gay people that, uh, that pick it up, you know, they should become more famous now than she ever was. But everybody else that used to work for Carmen is they made lots [00:40:00] of money out of that situation. That was it, you know, But the rest of them, they they just they travel on the on the big in the papers that, you know, the the the that she followed when she opened the coffee shop and stuff like this. It was an opening for all the gay people you know around in New Zealand that matters. You know, that's why she become famous, you know, he said, but I never could. I never She never says anything bad about anyone. She was She was such [00:40:30] a, uh, such a darling. You know, she was always have been and she always will be Always be by by by everybody say, Oh, she say something about car and that sort of thing But there's nothing much to tell She was so natural, natural person, natural friend to everyone, you know But everybody else, you know, all the all the gay kids you know, they become that got around was through that every that aspect was open to her, you know? And it was up through her [00:41:00] that all these people make a cup out of. And that's about all I could say about I miss that. Because for all these years, I've been there for 50 odd years. Over 50 years, we've been friends and we never had anything bad to say about anyone, you know. And Carmen never says anything bad about anyone else. She was so sweet like that with stuff like that. And I, I don't have anything. I'm not jealous or anything like that with her. But she was [00:41:30] She was so domino. She she came into the scene. And that's the thing, Which is fabulous personality, though. What was it like having the first drag show in New Zealand? How? How? How did people respond to that? Well, they didn't at first when we first opened they, as I said, they used to slander outside the door queers que and all this kind of stuff outside the front door. But But they soon come around. They come around and we open. We never, ever stop anything. We weren't doing anything [00:42:00] wrong, so we changed it to a strip club. And there's still the customers coming in like nobody's business. And all the young drag queens were coming out. You know, they all come on. We had the onion, you know, and all these ones they had started. When you like Georgina, they they've all started from the onion. It's always our place that made them come out, you know, and and, of course, the balcony and and coffee lounge. You know, they all come from there, you know, and all the ones that come from all over all over [00:42:30] New Zealand, they always sort of hit for the audience or common place, you know, but but That's it. You know, we stick with it. And it was because when I came from Australia, they were the biggest, the best clubs. There was the gay clubs over there, like the the lay girls. The most famous one was LA girls and the purple audience in Sydney, you know? And I worked at both places, You know, in those days, you know, you go in the sixties. Don't tell him I'm old. [00:43:00] How did the police treat you back back in the early days? Well, I never had much to do with them. It's usually the girls, you know. The girls were the drag queens, and that was they have a lot of things, but there were never any anything bad, the police and that sort of thing. Because I suppose we were new. You know it Don't say through the laws were stripping was about you Don't remove your pasties when you when you got your breast [00:43:30] nude. You know, when you are in those days, it wasn't but it didn't take long After that they dance in the nude, you know, everywhere they they're not allowed to move. You pose when you come down to your G string and that sort of thing. And I thought, you know those days, too, with the club in those days, The strip club in those days where I was so scared because of the laws and stuff like that. But they didn't have really. And when I went overseas and the strip clubs over there, [00:44:00] I could tell you it embarrasses me, the strip clubs over there to come. We had nothing to compare with the with the overseas trade on, on on the on, on on stripping. There's no nothing to compare with the with the Korean cops, you know, in in, in both in Hawaii and and and all over the all over the United States, you know. And I worked in Hong Kong, you know, and all those places like that I worked like girls in Hong Kong. I worked there. It was absolutely [00:44:30] stunning, you know. But anyway, I think since got on to the news of of going to be for the mayor and stuff like this, she's become real. Sheri it up so big, you know, when it comes to the gay people. But it wasn't really we did. I didn't have any trouble at all with the police. Anyway, I did it anyway, and I was the club owner, you know, But it was It's [00:45:00] a haven for our place in those days when we first opened up, it was a haven for the ones the the girls that are coming from out of town. They always come and every Christmas and stuff like this. I used to have an open house that they they have no homes because their families have sort of got rid of them because they were gay and stuff like this. We have an open house and they have open turkey and that sort of thing, they come and eat what they like, you know, and stuff like this. It was almost like a family sort of thing with all the and [00:45:30] all those girls. And all those guys have been like that all this time, you know? So we come to and stuff like that. We have customers that come there, that they come from the bluff. They bring a bucket full of oysters, you know, already from over there from the bluff, you know, just to just to be around to meet the girls and stuff, you know, and and stuff like that was a good business in those days. It's, uh, late. I think it was later on when other people had anything to do with it. [00:46:00] But in my from my side, I thought it was just a business as far as I was concerned. But we we we we got to cut them up. We packed out every bloody night. We used to do three shows, two shows a night after that. Three shows a night sometimes, you know, but anyway, they didn't even have any, Like, was going the laws about drinking at at that age that they they brought that out. I've left already then, but [00:46:30] because we don't, um, we don't talk about anything. Laws in those days, just whatever you get, you get Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, that was that. What was the most moving part of the, um, SC material coming in today? It was nice, you know, because when I looked at the at the memorabilia that she has over there, the stuff that she had over [00:47:00] there, it reminds me so much it just come right through. You know, there was so much common was a proper. She was a drag queen over and over. A guy there was never anyone like her, you know, as open as she is, you know? And she was proud of being, uh, being a trans, you know, being a drag queen, you know, but But there's there's there was so much when you look at all of the stuff that she has over there, that's her right through. Anyway, I used to come to [00:47:30] Sydney when I come from the States I. I used to go visit her in Sydney and have lunch together and stuff like that. I used to see her place with all the stuff she carry on this rubbish forever and ever. You know all these things of hers, and she's just only car and does this kind of stuff, you know, it's nice. It's not sad. It's a celebration, you know, for all them people to come out. You know what they are? I be true is the word you know, and I I I'm so I think all the all the [00:48:00] queens these days and and all the gay people should be so thankful for her. It opened every door for them over here. You know, not that I did very much for that moment, but in those days, you know, it was, uh, I don't know, running a business just like the way she run her business is it's just done out of her heart. You know, most of the stuff that she done. It's out of her heart. Those people that work for car, they make lots of money out of it, you know, [00:48:30] out of common. And then and there was nothing there was this other things that I don't agree. But I agree with her in many things. You know, III I I think of her after you know, my my niece. She she was a member of Parliament, you know? Yeah, we have you heard of her? Well, that's my niece. That's my sister's daughter. And is the Councillor over here? Well, those are my people, you know, and then nothing wrong but calm. [00:49:00] And she's always witty, but she's in parliament. She's always supported all the gay people. I said, I suppose, because I be, I suppose, But she's always like that. She's always calm, and this was common is such an open name for everybody that has anything to do with gay life. You know, the common name is always coming into business, you know? And that's what she's well known for. Big heart, big smile, big lips. That's common for you. [00:49:30] That's funny. TOEM I and boy boots up and and [00:50:00] fuck on always You know, of 92 [00:50:30] afternoon If I didn't know be Go to my to my I You want to [00:51:00] Bye. And movie in the last I Yeah, in I [00:51:30] It's I Yeah, in court [00:52:00] MA two my co my co Tell me what you want to thank you. I know [00:52:30] I a No. Yeah. See your mind Morning. My dinner [00:53:00] to and I walk up there. Yeah, you have to do I.
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