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I am from which is on the East Coast, and that comes from my mother's side, which is Maori Spanish. And on my father's side, it is Scottish English. Um, I spent times both with non Maori speaking grandparents and with Non-english speaking grandparents. Uh, one of the things that, um, [00:00:30] I was told, um was that when my Maori grandparents saw me, they said, Oh, he's not very dark. And when my grandparents saw me, they said, Oh, he's not very dark. So it works. I suppose both ways I speak Maori. Um, although I would probably speak more English today, Um, I was I [00:01:00] When I came to Wellington, I went to school and then all my primary school there. Later on, I went to Onslow College, which, although looking back, was a very good college. It wasn't the right one for me at the time. Uh, later on, I went back to university. Um and, um, I also studied in the United States and also in the UK as well. [00:01:30] I at the moment I being a pensioner, I suppose, working at te Papa as a guide and as a teacher and I've been there off and on for about 15 years. I spend at least two or three months of the year overseas either teaching in Europe, England or the United States. But as a performer and as a director [00:02:00] of theatre, I have actually worked in France, Spain, Papua New Guinea, um, Romania, um, the United Kingdom, the United States and several other countries as well as a performer. I was one of the first. Well, I was the first storyteller from Australasia to actually be in the, um, national storytelling. [00:02:30] Um uh, uh, federation in the United States and I was named as one of the 10 top storytellers in the world. One of the things on most of the things I like doing is I will only do Maori stories. I will not do other people's stories even though I know them, because I just don't like it when other people say, Oh, well, I've heard this story, so I will [00:03:00] do it. I have just kept on to stories that I know how to do that have taken me around the world and also, um, theatre, things like Shakespeare learning about Shakespeare and that and teaching, uh, theatre studies and television studies and film studies at different universities, um, here and overseas. And later on this year, I will go back to Germany to do some work in your early years, as as a child, the [00:03:30] the language and the the Maori culture. Was it a Was it a big thing for you? It it was, um, it was it. It's always been part of me. One of the things is when my brothers and sisters, when we were all born, our Maori mother wanted to give us all English names because she was frightened about how people pronounced our names and, um and because often [00:04:00] teachers, her name was that often, um, teachers. And that would call her, um or or anything like that. And she was very worried. We had another cousin called and people called her. And so our mother said, I want to give them all English names. It was she got away with that with me because she called me Gary, and my [00:04:30] father didn't want that name, but he sort of gave way to her on that and later on with my brothers and sisters. He just was quite adamant that we were Maori and that we would know English but that our Maori names would be our heritage. I never liked the name Gary. I've I didn't It was never really me. And I was never called that when I was with Maori people, [00:05:00] I was always either called or I was called or one of those. So I understood how my mother felt. Now I understand. Maybe a bit more, but I never appreciated it. I never felt with that name I really belonged anywhere. So when I got to about 28 I decided I would go back to a Maori name and it was, and I talked with my family about it first [00:05:30] and all. My father said to me, It's about time because you have always been Maori. You have always felt like that. And when I said it would be he said, Ah, we thought that might be something like that because you have chosen the male version of your mother's name and that since then, um, there are [00:06:00] still some people who are in their eighties and nineties who still remember me as Gary, and I never correct them on that. That's just how it is. Um, my family um, like I said, they sort of said, Well, it's about time you join the rest of us. So that was OK. Most people, in fact, I would say about at least 95% of the people I know now. Even those who have known me as a child actually sort of say, Yeah, you don't look like a Gary. You always look a lot more like a [00:06:30] schooling. I think for me I was what they call one of those intelligent Children, but could do better. And there were days when the teachers would just say, he's amazing. He will just go for everything and do it. And there were other days when nothing made sense to me. And so I just, you know, And so that put teachers in a in a um well, it put my parents and myself, I suppose, in [00:07:00] a rather precarious position. But what it was is I have dyslexia, and they didn't know about dyslexia then. So there were things I could hear and I would be able to just go there like that. But writing some things, I would get things mixed up. Not all things but some things I would get mixed up. Um, I remember I didn't do well at secondary school. I, um I didn't like it. I often ran away. I and [00:07:30] that was, I suppose, not understanding what was happening within me. I was pretty good at sports. Um, and people have often asked, Do I remember ever coming out? And I don't II I don't know what happened. It just happened. It was and it was not a big thing for me. Um, I was pretty good at taking care of myself, and so nobody ever actually teased me or anything. I don't know what we're [00:08:00] talking about. The sixties. I don't know whether really people knew what that was about, but I think the first time I became aware of the gay thing was I don't even know whether I was aware of it. But in 1960 Elvis Presley went into the army and there was a picture of him on a magazine, and all those guys were looking at it, and we just finished. Um, we just finished rugby, and we were sort of changed, and somebody said, Look at this. This is Elvis, man. That's great. Good. And everyone was going How? It's good. And I said, Yeah, you just want [00:08:30] to kiss him, don't you? And no, no, no, I don't. And nobody thought anything of it. But I couldn't work out why anyone didn't want to. Later on, I realised they all wanted to be him. And I wanted to just be with him. And that was a different thing. So I never I mean, yeah, I suppose at that time you you went with women, you lived with women, and that was all right. [00:09:00] But after a few months, it never worked for me. And my dad, who was actually quite strong in his Christian faith, said that he was getting a bit. It wasn't very fair to women who you'd be very happy with for two or three months, and then you'd leave them. And and he knew the reason why. And he said, It's really breaking people up. This is not fair. And then the bastard, he actually quoted Shakespeare to mean unto thy own self, [00:09:30] be true, not something false to no man or something. You know, that was from Polonius speech. And I was studying at that time, and I thought for somebody who was very strong in his Christian beliefs, very strong in what he thought was right. He had actually come through that and said, You cannot go hurting other people like this because what you're doing is you're damaging yourself. Um, by that time, everyone [00:10:00] knew my brothers and sisters, my my parents, my father being an ambassador. And that was overseas. And so, um, my younger brothers and sisters went to, um they lived overseas, too, But they went to boarding schools here, and so they stayed with me and my my my partners, especially one who has passed on now. His name was Russell Duncan. He was about about 10 Fif. No, he was probably 20 years older than me. And he, [00:10:30] I think, was the person that, in a way saved me. And I say that because I was very angry, Um, for whatever reasons. And I was also, um, was erratic in my behaviour and everything like that. And, um so he sent me to a doctor, which was which was really cool. And the doctor said [00:11:00] to me who was a gay doctor, too. He sort of said, Are you sure you're gay? And I went. Yeah, why? He said you're not just doing it because you think it could be fashionable and I went, Oh, yeah, maybe I am. No. And he asked me very good questions. And there had been one time when I did feel suicidal. I just sort of thought, nothing is making sense to me. Nothing's going away. I never associated [00:11:30] it really with the sexual thing. I associate it with all sorts of other things, and I sort of used to say to people, and I used to say I'd wake up in the morning and say God, get me out of this within 10 days or I'm out of here And it always happened. I was out of it. But then my mate said to me, Russell said to me, You like films, don't you? And I said, Yeah, I do and he said, And you like all those death scenes where people say wise things and they die and it's beautiful and I hadn't thought [00:12:00] of it, but it was actually true, and he said to me, OK, let's give you the reality. You commit suicide, we're not gonna find you for five days. Your body's gonna be bloated. There's gonna be flies around you and it's gonna be and you will have shit yourself and everything. And I thought, No, that's not That's not the way I went. Well, that got rid of that see all together. But I suppose part of the problem was and having a look at it as an adult, as right from a baby. Up till about the [00:12:30] age of almost five, I lived in 10 different homes with 10 different people. 10. And I didn't realise this till I was in my forties. But every time I was being shifted to another place, people would say, We love you very much. But we're going here. And I realised later on that every time somebody said they loved me, it meant they were going to leave me or I was going to be left. And that [00:13:00] made relationships difficult. Now for me. I don't consider it a relationship with anyone until I've been with them for at least three years, and then I might sort of say, Yeah, this could work. And with Russell, I stayed with him for nine years, and we left, I suppose, because I wanted to do other things. Um, but we remained good friends, right up till when he died. We would always see him. When I went, he [00:13:30] went to E back to England to live. We saw him. I always went to see him when I always went to England. When he came home here, we went out together. We had a good time. We were not lovers, but we were there. His name was Russell Duncan. He was a headmaster of Wellington South, and people knew he was gay, and he was damn good looking. The next guy that I was with was a guy called John Givens. And when [00:14:00] I first met him, he had dark, curly hair, green eyes and with the voice that would just make you melt and this and that. So and we lived together for about nearly 10 years. Then now that parting was quite amicable. But we had decided that this was time now, and I didn't really I mean, I had relationships, I suppose, but nothing that I would really connect to because I really started, like, living with [00:14:30] myself. I really loved it. Um, I love not having to wait for people I love going where I wanted to go. And then, uh damn it. One day I met Bill Logan, and I thought there was no way I thought this was gonna work. No way. I thought, Yeah, he's a good man, but he's not the type he's not there. And here we are, 17 years later, still together. What? What I learned with Bill was very important. He taught me when you [00:15:00] other people had tried to teach me, but I never understood it. When I came to be with Bill. I was in my forties, so things were just sort of on a turn for me and things were really going really well. But Bill questions everything. And I thought the way he questioned was, How dare you question my thing about being Maori? You have not insulted me, but you have insulted the you have insulted the WAKA. In fact, you have probably insulted [00:15:30] the whole nation by what you have said. And then I realised what he was doing is actually making sure I believed that I wasn't just parroting. He actually and one of the things that I have loved about him I have become much more solid in my way of thinking in my way of working with people. Um, people get very surprised [00:16:00] about Bill because because I speak Maori and I understand French very well and because I lived in France for a while. I don't wouldn't say I speak it now, but I understand it very well. But people say, Oh, it must be wonderful. You know what? What language do you speak at home? And he says English, What else would we speak? And I have a joke with people, and I'll say to people at work, You know how many of you have this dreadful thing in in your with your partners? And I said, What what [00:16:30] is it? And I said, My partner can only speak one language and I said, and I don't mean besides English, I mean, he just speaks English. Can you imagine waking up with someone every day of your life who can only speak one language and most of my colleagues go? Yes, yes, we do. But I use Maori a lot I don't use so I don't not speaking Maori with Bill, but he hears me a lot speaking [00:17:00] with family, and he also understands um when I if I'm doing something, there are certain words I always use in Maori. It's just not what I do. So he understands those words now. I will always say When I answer the phone, he will always say Hello. It's Bill speaking and that's how it should be that it's not a matter of me saying Everyone's got to say but that that's not the point as long as they don't criticise me for saying it, I don't mind [00:17:30] how they say it, because English is a language that I am very proud to have learned because it's an it's a language that has allowed me to travel through the world. But Maori will always be my emotional. Maori will always be my spiritual belief, which is another thing. I am married to an atheist. Can you imagine anything like that? A Maori who has spiritual beliefs, who has been brought up in Christian ways, who disagrees entirely with the [00:18:00] church but has a belief in certain way, you know, ways of thinking. So we used to have a spa pool, and I'm sitting out there one night and I said to be, Nah, I don't believe you're not spiritual and he says, Well, I'm not I'm an atheist and I sort of said, Well, you say that But you know, you're pretty intelligent, so you must have some spiritual belief. He said, Don't you dare use that on me because that's the argument I use on you and we argue Well, we do argue and we argue a lot, [00:18:30] not each other, but we do. We argue points a lot. Why is this? Why is this? Why is this? But if I was really truthful about the whole thing and I mean this in a very loving way towards Bill, he is one of the most spiritual people I have ever met. So if you can get a spiritual atheist, he's the man and he is much more humane than I am. He is much more willing [00:19:00] to go the extra mile with people. He often puts himself out for other people, whereas I sort of say, under the Treaty of Waitangi, I don't have to, but this is why we get together. We are a bicultural household. He is very in what he thinks and what he does, and that's how he should be. That's how he should be. I am very Maori in the way I think and I've had Maori [00:19:30] people come to me and sort of say No, you're not Maori and asked them to say and why not? They say, Well, look at the house you live in. Look at the way you live Look at the way you travel around the world And I said Yeah, that's what I want to be I know what it's like not to have things I for me, I'm always broke But I have never, ever been poor ever in my life. And what I'm saying with Maori with my own Maori people is if you keep telling yourselves we are poor, [00:20:00] you get yourself into a mindset and nothing goes right for you and it doesn't matter what we do. Nothing goes right if you're like me and you say I'm broke, Broke is always temporary and then some days I have you know, this money to burn type of thing and not that I spend it. I do save on that, but I can. I can get everything I need, not everything I want and that's just that's just how it is mind you, that's actually not true. I can get practically anything [00:20:30] I want. I have to say this. I get most things I want. All right. Um, the other thing which I have found is which I found difficult is that growing up, I was taught as all of us as Maori were taught. We were growing up in a world, and we had to learn pakeha ways and we had to do, which meant we were always on the back foot because no matter how well we did and you know, many of us did very well, we don't look. [00:21:00] And so people would say, Oh, you've done very well for a Maori, haven't you? And we'd say no, we've done very well because we've just done well. But the other thing is what I'm now putting into practise and talking to other people about to Maori, people are saying is stop telling our Children they have to grow up in a world they don't. They have to grow up in a modern world. And there is a difference. If you grow up in a modern world, you can be as Maori as I am. You can live [00:21:30] where you like, But you say I'm in the modern world. This means that our Children cease to be on a back foot. And I do this because I know what it is like to be on the back foot, no matter how well you did. Although I must admit, in my twenties and thirties my brother and I noticed this every time we did well at education and everything else. We were good New Zealanders and every time we did badly well, you're just Maori and you'd sort of [00:22:00] think you cannot have it both ways. We're Maori and that's it. And people will say to you well, how much Maori are you? And I say all of it and they say But you said you're Scottish and you and and you're Spanish. Absolutely. That is part of my heritage and I am as proud of that as anything. But this is the country I live in. Maori are the people that I'm with and people are the others. And this word only New Zealanders can be English cannot [00:22:30] be Americans cannot be no one else can be unless they live on these islands. And so when I'm talking to people and to, um, English people that they say. So we're and I say I stop social climbing. You kno are people who I will walk with on these islands only only on these islands. Um, and hopefully we make the country a better place to live culturally, [00:23:00] spiritually, economically and environmentally. We try and do those things together, and that's really important. Another thing people say to me, Do you think there are too many Chinese people here? Do you think you are too many Indian? No, I don't, Um, they have as much right to be here. If they've come here, they have as much right and their Children are our Children. And that's how I think about that. And, um, you know, people have it. [00:23:30] It often comes up because people want me to actually say it's wrong that they're there, and I don't I really don't believe that if people have made an effort to come to this country and I call it aotearoa New Zealand, if they I was very lucky, as I'm sure you we were born here, couldn't be much better. These people have come from places of great struggle as my ancestors did and your ancestors did. They are coming to give their [00:24:00] Children a better life, as did our ancestors. So they're gonna work hard. They're gonna try and learn things. They're gonna do stuff. They're gonna be really good. And I would say all the ones that I have met, they do well, they feel a bit shy if they if they can't speak English, as we do. If when we go to another country, they're here, they're ours. And it's very difficult sometimes. Um, but when any two cultures [00:24:30] get together, it is difficult. As far as the Treaty of Waitangi goes, it was the most forward thinking document of its time to come out of Europe. What has ever happened afterwards? And there are things gone wrong. I know that. But I am so glad that we have this treaty. It's a treasure. And contrary to most people's belief, it is a British document. It is not Mark. We didn't write it. We didn't say [00:25:00] it. It it It is a little bit different in the Maori, the way it's actually translated. But people get really surprised. I sort of said, Really, you thought we all sat down together and wrote this. No, it's a British document. So with all the ups and downs and everything that you have, it's a great place to be. It's a great place to be so living in a modern world. Now, if [00:25:30] we have a a child, would you give them a a pakeha name or a Maori name? And why I had always said I would give a Maori name and it is slightly easier now because you we have we have and our kids went to the and that and their English is pretty good is very good. Actually, um, they've also found that when a couple of them have tried to do other languages, [00:26:00] it was easier. Nor do I think we have the panacea for the world. We we are working it. I would do that, Um, because the world has changed one of the things. Sometimes when I hear Children talking, I almost cannot tell if they are or Maori because they say things like Waitangi. They say Maori and whereas their parents and their grandparents don't and that's not a fault. That's just [00:26:30] how it was. I don't like it, but I have to accept the fact that's how it was. But I also remember my grandparent well, no, my mother and that generation. When they spoke Maori, they talked about the Iwi Maori like the Maori people. But when they spoke English, they talked about the Maori and it was like two different things. Whereas most people now we talk about Maori and so it's become a national [00:27:00] thing. It also, um I hear Children really telling their parents and grandparents off for them, and I always go and thank them. And I say, This is wonderful, But your mum and dad, it was a different time. And if you, instead of telling them off, just be gentle with them. Because if you tell them off, it means that we become the enemy because it's, you know, we're [00:27:30] forcing something on them and I don't want to do that. I know English was forced on my mother and those people, and there was a big thing about being scared of schools because of that. And one of the things I feel really ashamed of is my Although my father was a diplomat and an ambassador, my bro, my mother was the really one who was who was very, very intelligent, but never had the opportunities to go on. And my father also said, Know your mother if she had had the same opportunities, I don't [00:28:00] know whether she'd look at me and she said, Oh, I think I would I think I would And it's the same, I suppose, with Bill and I, um he's quite well known within the community with what he does. But one of the things he said to me I was the first person that he's been married to, who more people knew than knew him. And he he said to me once he said, It's really strange and I'm really proud that they do But somehow I he [00:28:30] said. But I know people, I know people And I said, Of course you do. It's just that when if you do film and then you do television and that people think they know you and this man builds friendships up, Yeah, I do, too, But I mean, I'm you know, I'm not. I'm you know, not that far. But he builds friendships wherever he goes. And that, for me, is a That is me. You know this word? Um [00:29:00] people say it's Chief um, leader, but the word is to weave and the is a word for people. So it's a weaver of people, and that's why when I call him a, he's not my boss. But he's a good weaver of people. He's much better at that than I am. I am very good at socially doing things and, um, being with people out there, But basically if I meet you, I want to be with you right now, Um, [00:29:30] because I might never meet you again and things like that. And, um, if I don't meet you again, we've had a good conversation. So that's great bill friendships 30 40 years and there and it's a good I. I remember saying to him once you cannot make old friends overnight and he said, What does that mean? And I said, Listen carefully, I said too many gay people for me. [00:30:00] I don't know whether it's so true now because it's a different world. But when I was young, we were all making friends overnight, we'd slept with you one night and oh, we're going to be forever. It's going to be just great and this and that and then, you know, a month later. Well, I didn't work. Um, but people ask me now. Well, you know, you and Bill have been together for 17 years, nearly 18 and sort of said, Well, you know, do you think this will be it? And I jokingly sort of said, Yeah, well, I can't be bothered going through all that again. And Bill said, Oh, thanks [00:30:30] very much. And I said no. You know, I'm joking. Anyway, I I'm really interested in how we, um, identify ourselves and something you said right at the start of this chat in terms of, um, you're at school. And what happens when the teacher can't even say your name? You know, what does that do to you internally? So I'm not only thinking about the the your own name, but the the other words that you use for by yourself, like gay or stuff like that. I mean [00:31:00] I mean, what does it do when? When? When the society can't even say your name correctly. Maori people change their names. They did. There was a whole generation that changed their names. Um, they wanted to have names like, um Jack or, um Maxine or something like that. And when I do say, Maxine, it was a woman I'm talking about, not a not a gay queen. And so but And that was that whole thing, because films you went to see, [00:31:30] Um, And when television came out, these were the names. These were the people and what that actually did. It keeps telling us we are wrong. And sometimes the only time when Maori people felt that they were OK was when we were back with other Maori people. Now I get that occasionally I sort of thought, I've really I I've just got to go back, but I don't have a fantasy about it. I go back, I may [00:32:00] spend two or three weeks with people, but I am in the city now. This is my home. This is where I live. This is where I've loved changing names. My brothers and sisters have all had the chance to change theirs, and they won't. They won't, um, they have given. My brother gave all his Children Maori names, and they were in a time where teachers could say they [00:32:30] could say those things and and so they didn't quite understand and they then they shouldn't have to. As they're getting older, they're understanding what some of the difficulties that their grandparents and great grandparents had. Um but I'll tell you, the one who's the ones who are really holding the door open for us, it's not. The Maori speakers are certainly there and the Maori teachers, but it's often parents [00:33:00] who never had the opportunity. What they are saying is our Children are going to have the opportunity, and what I do say to them is, give them the opportunity, don't force it anywhere. I remember my brother saying as well, my kids, they're all going to become teachers and they're gonna do this and they're gonna do that. And I said, No, there was no there was no proviso on this. What we did was we give them this, how [00:33:30] they use it. It's up to them. It's it's It's a gift. There are. There are no caveats to it. You just give it out. The one that has become a teacher was the one that had no interest at school whatsoever, who, suddenly, at the age of 15, went for everything, did a university degree in Maori. Um, you know, then taught in Maori and teaches both in Maori and in English. And that was and she and she was the one [00:34:00] she was. She just came from left field. We didn't know when it happened because she was much more interested in makeup and socialised. She was an A for those but C minus for school. And then suddenly there was this huge turnaround. Um, do each Yeah, sometimes it depends where the child is. I suppose I've got a nephew called and nobody would dare say anything to him. Now he's a man, you know. He's a good looking guy too. [00:34:30] But he came really home one day. He sort of said, Everyone's calling me Muddy and And a teacher giggled at it, not meaning to, but just did, and that it damaged him for A for a long time. He didn't want to go to school, he didn't want to do anything. And then we talked with him. We talked and told him what the was and what a good tree it was. And in Samoa, it was a, you know, high Chief and building those [00:35:00] things for him so he could have arguments without getting physical with people and saying is Look, this is what I'm And then we said to him, Ask the Children what their names mean. They won't know. But what he did was he asked them and we found out what their names meant and he gave a talk at school. Your name means this. Your name means that And a guy called David. I think he was one of those really horrible ones. And it said, David, your name [00:35:30] means Beloved and David went It does not. Most beloved, Most cherished. All those numbers are what I better have a Maori name. So but Mike Mike, there's a very good actor. His name is George. He not here. His name was That's how we knew him as a child. When he went to school school. They called him he and he [00:36:00] and he said, No, just call me George. But when he comes home and he knows where he is, then But you actually do and understand that and I really do understand that, um I don't know. I had my parents called me a Maori name. Um, although my father really wanted to it was my mother who actually registered me, but I don't know what that would have done for me at school. I can only I can only surmise, [00:36:30] Um, but I feel much more comfortable in the name. Well, I've had it most of my life now anyway. Would I change it back? No, no. And I'm really surprised how how people get really defensive of me once they know my name. And if anyone else pronounces it wrong, you know the pronunciation is wrong. It's it's how people say that is not his name. His name is this. That is not his [00:37:00] name. It's not Rangi. It's not this. It's It's very easy to say It's four syllables, and that's another thing is English. Speakers often take it as five syllables, and therefore it's too long, they say. They say, Well, it's more. Ah, and I say No, it's And once they get that, it's very easy. So we try and make things as [00:37:30] easy as possible with people as when they're learning. And I know some people they get nervous of some speakers because the speakers will speak too fast, or, um, they'll say That's not how you say it and hopefully I never say that. What I do say, if somebody asks me a question and they're speaking in Maori or if they say something and it's not quite right, I never correct it. All I say is, [00:38:00] wow, you know, you know, it's you know, it's sweet when we say it's really great listening to you. Here is another way of saying that, and this way we have kept their mana and prestige. We are acknowledging that they're learning and we are helping them just say, Well, maybe this way if you do that and it's what I, um asked teachers to do [00:38:30] when we're teaching adults who are learning, just go with it, they're trying, and some of the ones who have the most difficult are our Maori students, because there is this park Students are very good, but they don't have an emotional bond with it. They don't with the language, So it's not a matter of oh, I should have learned this, You know, I should know this. I shouldn't be having to learn this. And many people say, Oh, well, the best way to do [00:39:00] it is to go back home, you know, go back to the that no longer works. The majority of the people back home do not speak Maori. I will. There are certainly a lot to do, but they're not teachers of language. So they're going to say is I don't understand what you're saying If you if you don't say it right so they'll just speak in English it's easier here. You get lots of criticism. Oh, they've learned that from university [00:39:30] or they've learned that from here. They've learned that from there and I sort of say I don't care. The fact is they're learning it. They were not fortunate enough to have some of your advantages, but they're as Maori as you are if people are doing things for the community and it doesn't have to be Maori community, if people are doing community things like in the gay community, if they're doing things with other people, if they're helping immigrants, if [00:40:00] they're doing that and they are Maori, they are just as Maori. Just because they don't speak the language, we'll always have enough of those they do, and sometimes I think too many and people say, Oh, the it must be so wonderful, you know, culture, you know that you must feel it, and I keep saying my culture is no better than anyone else's. It's just the culture that that feeds me. It's certainly no better than people. It's certainly no better than Chinese or anyone else. It's no worse, but it's no better. [00:40:30] But it fulfils my needs, and that's one. So for words like Gay Queer Rainbow Takata, How how would you identify if I was really honest gay? Um and I do say that I know people want me to say in A in a Maori situation, I will, but is not a word. I'd heard it all all my life, but [00:41:00] it didn't mean quite what it means today what it may have. It meant that two males who were the best friends throughout life they will often be married. But they did things together. You often said the wives would be jealous because these two guys would do things. They would die for one another in battle and things like that. I think a lot of people, um, don't understand. The Jonathan and David story from the Bible is identical. It doesn't [00:41:30] it. They may have had a relationship physical. In fact, I'd be very surprised if most of these people didn't have some relationship at some stage, but it wouldn't be the primary relationship. It would be a very special relationship, and only with that person that it wasn't as though that if if this person dies, they'd probably go to another person. They would just stay where they were and that. But in battle, who would be your best one? The one who would hold you close? [00:42:00] The one who you would fight together, the one who you would give your liver to it? What we sort of say that we say, Um, I would give you my liver because a liver has enough goodness in it. If you gave it to someone, they could survive. And that's how you show your love in Maori. It's not the heart, it's the liver. It's the liver because it's about what, the sustenance. Of course I sing the songs, you know, you [00:42:30] know all those and it means it. But gay was the word that we came out with. Gay was the word that I really protected. Um, gay was the word that I had my nose broken twice for gay was the word that I'd been knocked out for and I'd got into fights for I didn't start them, and sometimes I didn't finish them. But a couple of times I did a couple of times I did. And once that [00:43:00] happens, I don't want to be in fights. I wanna be able to argue logically with people. What is it now? I know with the fundamentalist Christians, they say it is a blight. You know, it's God's, you know that God doesn't like this. And yes, there are things in Leviticus and there are things. But you're looking at a people who I say, Well, why is this in there? It must have been that there were gay people there and they [00:43:30] said, We're a small nation. We need more kids, get off, get marry. And that makes sense. You say is no, we need more men. We cannot have. We we need more soldiers. You dying. You too is good for there. But we need other generations, and it has to do with war and property. So one of the things I looked at that and I said, Yeah, it doesn't mean that for me because it was, um, for me being gay [00:44:00] was about me. It was about no one else. I will not out people I want, um They have to come at their own time. And I do feel sorry for them. Oh, What am I going to say about the Christians? Yep. Yep, yep. Let me get back to it. You tell me God's infallible. If you believe that, then we are made in the same image. If that's what you believe, then this is it. Yeah. If you're telling me that God's infallible but these [00:44:30] things, then he's making 50,000 mistakes a day, and therefore you can't have it both ways. You either say God is is infallible. We are made all this way. Or you have to say that God is infallible. He's fallible, infallible, and therefore has made 50,000 mistakes a day. And if you go that through the so called and I'm going on the Christian thing about the being 5000 years, he could [00:45:00] have rectified that mistake by now. Surely, if that was a mistake, that's my argument with it. Can I Can I tell you a joke? I went to see um um, a minister priest, a minister, and I, um I want to find out about this gay thing, and he says to me, Look here. What I want you to do is I want you to say, Satan, get thee behind me And I went, [00:45:30] Oh, I think to the side behind me. We might never get home And she went, Get out. And it's those things. It's also the humour that you can have to have the ability to laugh at ourselves. I don't always, um I say to people, Sometimes I say, Be careful. I can say jokes about Maori and I do Maybe you need to just watch it. [00:46:00] Maybe if I'm saying jokes about I may need to watch it, I may need to see it. So I get around by saying that I just don't define what what they are. What what race they are. But with the gay thing. Yeah, I. I can take a joke as well as anyone, I think. But you got to go there yourself. And I have one wonderful, really good straight friend of mine. Richard, we were doing something and [00:46:30] these two young Polynesian guys came up. I wasn't there at the time. I just come through afterwards and they were looking at something and they kept saying us, Oh, man, that is so gay That is so gay And Richard said, What do you mean? And they said, Oh, it's just gay, man, you know, it's gay, it's really gay And he said, Well, I'm gay, What does that mean? What What does that mean? And they said, Oh, no, man, that's cool. That's really cool. You're gay, You know that? That's cool. Nothing about that, he said. Then why are you saying that's if I said That's Samon or that's Maori. What would you say? [00:47:00] And they were? You can't say that, man and he said, Yeah, well, you can't say this and I'd come in just on this and I said, What are you doing? And he said, The little fuckers, they can't say that. You can't say that and I said, But now they're going to tell everyone you're going, and he said I couldn't give us stuff and I said, Yeah, but your wife and Children might and he said, Well, if they don't know, I'm not now, they never will. So you you can have good friends I don't choose friends because they are Maori. I don't [00:47:30] choose friends because they are gay. I choose friends because they're good people and I like it. Really. If they are our Maori, that's even. That's a bonus. But no, Um all my family, we are very Maori. Not one of us married a Maori, not one of us. And I sort of said, um I don't know if you realise this about Oh, About eight years ago, a guy from he [00:48:00] married a minor member of the British royal family and everyone was saying how great he was from and said, How dare you bring our culture down by marrying into that family? Oh, and those are the things I love about us, you know, because everyone was saying to me, Well, he's married into the royal family and that No, we're ashamed of him. OK, so your your [00:48:30] nose breaks. Was it was that during homosexual law reform, or was it before it was before? Because I was still going? I am going to, you know, I'm going to I'm not going to hide it. I don't France it, But if somebody would say something and I would say, Yeah, that's me. They would never take me on one on one. It was usually two or three at a time, would go and therefore you're not. And I took it right. If this is what you gotta do, I'm still not gonna hide. And [00:49:00] I said, um, I got brothers and I know where you live, because my family, they would not let anyone touch me. They wouldn't, my sisters and that would just come up and just go. And every now and again, I have to say, No, no, no. We need to calm it down. And we need to calm it down because, as kids, I don't know. I'm thinking all families do this. We always just all bmp in together, you know, with the kids. So I took my little sisters [00:49:30] to bed and my brother and I, But finally I had to stop when we were in a when I was in my thirties and they were in their twenties and teens and I'd be with a mate, you know, And all my family would be piling into bed and, you know, my mate would be naked or something. He said, Oh, this is lovely. This is great. Is it a Maori thing you're doing so life is good, it's not perfect. But I consider myself [00:50:00] most times the most blessed person in the world and I know that's arrogant because other people say it. But I really do feel that. And I feel one of the luckiest people because I have actually been born Maori and again I want other people to think that about themselves because if you don't feel that about yourself, then other cultures become a threat. If you are very confident in your own culture and I'm very confident in [00:50:30] the English speaking world and very confident within Maori and the Maori speaking world and I have a real interest in other cultures, there's no threat to me personally, there's no threat to any of our Children, any of our grandchildren either. And we say to them embrace the people because it's not in Maori. What is the most important thing? It's not being a Maori, being a Maori, being a Maori, it is the people, it is people, it is people and [00:51:00] there's no colour in that and we are the only people in the world who in 18 40 got the rights of British subjects. All right, it was taken away, but it we got it. No other coloured race was ever offered that no other coloured race actually held the British down so mercilessly like we did. And what? People have to remember that we are the only coloured people that Queen Elizabeth apologised [00:51:30] to what was happened to us and what happened to us. There were bad things, but nothing compared to what has happened in other countries. Nothing. But it was Maori people who got the apology. It was Maori people. They said if the apology happens, we may be able to restart processes later on. Jenny Shipley actually did an apology, I think, to the Chinese people for what had happened to them. Which means if you if you recognise the faults, [00:52:00] you actually can start a healing process. If you don't, what happens will fester as nearly happened in the 19 seventies because many of us as Maori said we have lost so much. Now we'll take anyone on. We will take anyone on and I truly believe, had there not been a recapitulation of government and that they saw what was happening with those huge protests of Maori coming [00:52:30] in that there may have been a civil war. Now again, that's only hearsay. But if I remember what happened in the seventies Maori marching Maori tent embassies, Maori, the Maori warriors, people coming in and then later on hearing someone do a haka in English so it couldn't be smoothed over by a translation, actually said, I will make you understand the [00:53:00] haka. I will make you understand what I think. There was a haka, and in one of the words in Maori it goes and it is translated as, Oh noble lords, we have our disagreements. Is you bloody bastards, you buggers! And it's a transliteration of bloody bugger and once said, We're not translating it. We're going to do it in English. You cannot [00:53:30] cover it because many of the elders and they were trying to sort of smooth it. They understood how we felt, but they didn't know how to put it to the wider community. Television radio have actually altered that, But there is still an underlying prejudice in the country. And that is I've recently been looking at billboards up around the place and the only people [00:54:00] that says that are successful in this country are white people. It I looked at billboards, you know, have a successful career, and it's white. People be a successful business people, white people. Be very good at this. Have a job at this. You could do this even things for, like, stewards and stewardesses. Um, all those other things, the faces, no stewardesses. They've actually changed that a little bit. But on all the major things, it's always the white faces are showing. [00:54:30] And without with that, it's subliminal because what, actually you're telling Maori people is or other people on the land? Yeah, this is a white man's place. Learn your place and it's not happening. It's not gonna happen. It's, um the Samoans and Maori are more coming together now more, much more than they did before. Um, we [00:55:00] will work once we get over the fear. Once we've any other people get, um, get rid of the xenophobia them. We will start working because the coloured population will be more than 50% of us within the next 30 years. Already it's up to nearly 40 35 35 and it will keep growing but English is going to be the language. It's gonna be a language that we speak English is gonna be it. [00:55:30] I think Maori will carry on. It will change and as it should and what we are saying to Chinese parents and to Samoan parents. And that is, if it's not a matter of teaching your Children Samoan or Chinese, it's just speaking to them. If you do not do it within two generations, it will go. And that's how I think so. Looking back at the seventies, do you think [00:56:00] there are parallels between, say, the the the Maori Renaissance and say the gay liberation that was happening? I mean, I, um in some ways I was lucky because I to me the Maori Renaissance was more important. It was much more important for me and it was already on the way by the time the gay Renaissance came through and so therefore everyone knew me as Maori and that was great. [00:56:30] But now I could allow the other thing to happen to in the gay Renaissance and going through the marches and going through those things and standing on the front and saying, No, this is me and people said stupid things like, But you were so good at sport and I went, Yeah, I didn't particularly like it, but you had to do it. There wasn't much choice. Oh, yeah, but you know, and somebody said, But you ride horses, you you drive, you know, [00:57:00] you used to drive, you know, cattle. And I sort of said, Yeah, it was a job. I didn't sort of think, Oh, I must show them that I'm a gay person, that I can ride a horse and that I can, you know, do cattle shear sheep and that I said there wasn't much choice. You have to do it. And they say it. Well, I would have never thought of you. And I sort of thought, Yeah, well, I don't think we ever thought about it at all, to be quite honest. And that's what I mean is don't I don't radically kill [00:57:30] those people. We have still remained friends, and most of my straight friends at no, I've had all of them. Now they get really jealous. If I don't hug them. And these are the guys they say they'll say to me, Don't be a puff. Give me a hug and you're thinking right. But it's a real good thing that your mate can say to you, Give me a hug, you know? And sometimes they'll say, Oh, bloody hell, give us a hug. A proper hug. Not one of those ones. Because my mates don't hug like this [00:58:00] now. They used to. They just boom, it's like that. And I also think now you see it in sport a lot more. You see, um, you know, you see sports people doing it after a game. You see men doing it after a game. Um, and this has made a difference, too. I know. So you've mentioned, uh, storytelling bill earlier in the interview, And you've also mentioned, uh, things about, um, kind of activism, like going on marches. Do you find [00:58:30] that your storytelling is also a form of activism? Yes, very much so. Very much so. Um, for one thing, it, um I tell stories in a way that you have to listen, and I don't, and I don't do them loud. But what I do is I do a story, and I use a lot of dance movements, action, slow motion, all that [00:59:00] and Then I'd retell the story again with no words, just actions. And the audience gives it back. Yeah, One of the things I learned when I when I was in Hawaii is that I had, like, 200 say, between five and seven year olds come in. And I asked that only about seven teachers stay in the room in the in the theatre, [00:59:30] but everyone else to go out all the adults to go out. And so I told the Children the story and we went over it. We went over it and we said, Now when I'm going to tell it this time, I'm going to tell it slowly and you can only tell it as I'm doing the actions and you tell your mom and dad what they are, but we're going to do something. When I do this, I'm going to do this part of the story. And when your mom and dad ask you, [01:00:00] you're going to say, I can't tell you that it's a secret, and if you're very good, I'll tell you later. And so we did this thing. So I don't know if you had it, but my parents used to either spell out words and things like that, so I couldn't understand it. And I know what are they saying? And these Children have this And so what they did was by having that action. They all just went and I carried on a bit. Then we went like this, and that meant they could say again. And the parents said, But what was that bit? [01:00:30] And they said, We can't tell you if you're good, we'll tell you Well, most of the kids gave up, you know, at the end of the day, they told their mum and dad, which was great. But I was in Hawaii for about two weeks and I got this call from a parent and sort of said, My child has been telling me that I'm still not. My behaviour has not been good enough, and they still haven't told me that part of the story. So I got the chart on the phone and I said, Do [01:01:00] you know, I think if I give you the magic, can you actually tell them now? I said, I said, Do I have to have the magic for it? And I said, Yeah, because you've kept it there so long that it won't mightn't come out. And they went, Oh, so just on the phone, I went. So can you feel the magic? Yeah, I can. And then I said, Well, the part of that story was like this and that and it [01:01:30] I like to give Children those things sometimes, but also what it does it actually, if families come and I don't just do stories for Children stories I do for families because that was the idea of storytelling is that parents and Children, when I'm doing the second one that will work together and they will try and work it out. And And I say to the parents, Whatever the child says is right, [01:02:00] if that's how they saw it, that's how it is. It's right. Please do not say that's wrong, you know, and because sometimes Children, even though you do it, something else goes on in the head and that's fine. And it's just that if you do it and I'd say to parents say that's great And do you know the way I saw? I saw this happening in it, so the child is not wrong, but we can go on because I'm only [01:02:30] there for an hour. If a child is thought to be wrong, then I'm to blame because I haven't done it right now. And that's what we're trying to get the parents to know. You've got to be there with them and you can usually tell what the parenting skills are like because you can see there are some that you know, get really frustrated that their child hasn't understood this or has got it wrong. And this and that and I keep going, you know, and we congratulate every child. [01:03:00] And if there are some parents that haven't done well, I will not congratulate any parents. But if I can see everyone has done well, then I go and tell them You are so lucky to have parents like this and you are lucky to have this child. You are very lucky. And so we do that, and it's a way I try and do things as a Maori, but also as a human being. And when I teach things, I teach them [01:03:30] because it's no good me taking them to the grave, no good at all. It's stupid. If there is someone who I believe is worthy of lying something. I certainly will tell them. Um, a lot of the things I've handed down to the next two generations things that I was taught. Certainly not everything, but we haven't a way is our cup is always full, and you've got to give out the knowledge. Otherwise, you're just gonna go mad. [01:04:00] And if the but as you keep giving out more, comes in and so you've got to keep giving out, keep giving out. You can never give it all out because although you're trying, it just keeps filling up. So I'm hoping on the last day I can say is take the whole bloody cup. So I mean, where does that generosity of spirit come from? It comes from both. I didn't [01:04:30] I didn't really know my parents I. I was never close to them. Like my brothers and sisters were because they lived only with them. I did not. But my mother didn't always understand wit, but she understood humour. My my father understood wit very well, and there lies the nub of an argument because my mother didn't always get what the witticism was. But [01:05:00] the wit and I think came from my father's mother, who had this wicked sense of humour and the funny thing about that. She was a Salvation Army officer and my father went there, too, Which is why I'm saying when he said the things about you have to be true. If it's gay, you have to go there. We can't do it And he said, If I have a problem with it, I need to work it out. I'm wondering what are some of the other, um, values [01:05:30] that you have? So we've you know, we've talked about that generosity. I mean, what what? What are the other things? That kind of, uh, core to you. I'm an introvert. And by that I mean, when I'm out there with people, I am totally out there. But once I get home, I will not talk to people. I mean, I will always be polite, but I will not talk to people. Um, and that is sometimes I've had people coming to me all [01:06:00] day. I've been teaching all day. I've been doing and I teach at all different levels. And so when I come home, I don't want to do anything else. Now Bill is a counsellor. So he listens all day and he still hasn't used up hardly any of his words. So he needs to talk. He needs to be there with people. And so he'll have guests here. When they first started coming, I did it. Everyone thought I didn't like them. And then I realised I had to tell [01:06:30] them why. And he's only ever got angry with me. Once about that is that we had guests, and after an hour I thought, Oh, I've had enough, I'm going to bed And I went to bed and he said, What are you doing? And I said, I've had enough II. I know them. I've seen them. I've been polite and he said, I don't know them. They're your family. This is the first time I've met them, Get out of bed and get here. That's the only time. So I trotted out. [01:07:00] You know, this and that and sort of said, How long are you people staying? We said, What? What? There are other things. Um, Bill is a lot freer in the home, So if people come in, he says, Oh, just help yourself, go to the fridge and I don't I sort of ask people, Can I get you this? Can I get you that? It's a way of me. It's both. What? No, neither way is wrong. But I don't like people coming in and just sort of saying, Oh, I'll have this and [01:07:30] have this bill doesn't care. You know, Bill actually says it, and I would sort of go, No. But what I have done is I will maybe serve the first cup of tea in the drink and then say from now and help yourself. So I have compromised in that way. Um, Bill has not compromised at all. Bless his little monoculture head. But getting on that I also people [01:08:00] take people say, Oh, you're not an introvert because they think because they see me with people. But I get my strength from when I'm by myself so I can actually do that, Bill, if you if you saw Bill and I together when we're out, it would be Bill who you would talk would be the introvert because he will talk to one or two people. But he will have real conversations with them. I might, or I mightn't, depending on how I feel depending on where I've been. [01:08:30] Um And so usually, um, if the people I've been talking, I might say, come home. But if you don't, I'm not worried about it. But I can guarantee everyone that Bill has spoken to be will be visiting within the next two days. Or on that night, they will be coming. And the house is full of people. I said, why did we bother to go out? Why didn't we just invite people here? So there are those things, Bill. I [01:09:00] go to bed very early at night. Um, and Bill comes to bed very, very late, like two o'clock in the morning. That's where he comes to bed. Um, that works for us. It didn't used to. I used to get up, and then Bill used to worry if I you know if I was out late or something like that because he knew that I'm a homeboy. And, um, but we keep in communication, but we don't. We really don't live in each other's pockets. And that is bills in Australia at the moment. And I don't miss [01:09:30] him one little bit, but I'm so glad when he's back. I am so glad when he's back. I am the same. I'm going away. I. I go away for at least two or three months a year, either usually back to Europe or America to teach and that and we don't miss each other. But by crikey when we get back together, it's just big, really big holes and big hugs. And that, too, that we are a family and my family. My, my Well, [01:10:00] my family, all of them. Billa's family, Billa's family and what's even better? His former wife is also family. And because if ever I get sick, if Bill was away, she is the one I call. She comes here because my brothers and sisters live away. You know, they live in and that, but she just lives around the road, so she comes there. If we have a family gathering, they sort of say, Well, you will bring the day, won't you? And I sort of said, Yeah, one [01:10:30] day I didn't They said, Did you invite a deal or did you just leave her? And I said, No, I she was doing something else, Bill and I says, Yes, she was doing something else. I do have a temper, much as I would like to bring with this wonderful, very dust on you. I do have a and it's and I have a voice which is very, very loud. And it's and it's the only time Bill's got scared of me is once because he was so cool on this argument [01:11:00] and there was no way I and the thing is I knew he was right. But I got to that stage that I am not a You're right. I'm not admitting you're right. And I knew he was right. I'd worked it out. Oh, he's right. But I'm not telling him that because he looks so so. I just boom roar at him and I just saw him and I was so sorry. Once I'd done it, I was really and I've never done it again. Never, ever done it again because he wasn't used to that. And I sort [01:11:30] of said to him, Man, you're lucky because I usually used to hit people for that for what you said. So I thought I was being really cool, just using the voice. But I also realise that it can be very frightening when when you've got a Maori coming at you who suddenly looks much bigger than you, who's coming with all the fighting skills and that, and and using that I do keep on the whole. It takes a lot for me to lose my temper. [01:12:00] And it's not that I, um, but I've got other ways of doing things now, and I do do them and Bill knows. But I also have a thing we both have a, um, we have an agreement that if one of us feels that something's getting out of hand, you say it. And unfortunately I'm the one who gets told a lot of getting out of hand. And I thought, Oh, it's just winning And now you're just using it because you want to win the argument you want to be. It's getting out [01:12:30] of hand now, so I've got to go outside, and I feel like, Oh, I take the dog out. We go for a walk. But it was like I don't know. I don't know if you had this, but I used to get this, get outside, come back when you're ready. And I was like, Well, how do I know when I'm ready? I'm ready now, but, you know, I don't know when I'm ready, but it does work. And I have that thing about being able to go out, out, work it out. But even when I do, it takes a lot for me to, So I've never said you are right. I've said, [01:13:00] Yeah, you could be right on that. I just need to think a little bit more through it And he knows he's won the arguments and then he always says It's not about winning, it's not about winning. And I said, Oh, bullshit, it is so because he sits there smiling away, he does. Now, you've mentioned a couple of times, uh, the word marriage and I would like to know from you your thoughts on things like, um, same sex marriage. And, [01:13:30] um, I mean, when that whole debate was happening, um, around kind of the Marriage Amendment act, there was all this talk about, um, kind of Is this just a You know, So So So what are your thoughts on things like marriage and assimilation? Well, I thought that, too I was saying, Is that and I'd said to Bill because Bill does want to get married, and I sort of said, Well, we're gonna really work this through. I didn't want it actually, necessarily for me, but I wanted [01:14:00] other people to have the choice if they wanted it. That was as simple as that. And some people, some straight people, said to me, Well, what's the difference? If the law goes through, you know, what difference will it make? And I said, quite simply, I can't object to straight people getting married and I went What? And I said, I cannot object to you getting married I said, That's what it's like. You can get married. I can't object the same as [01:14:30] if our people want to get married. You can't object and the people who actually and I'm not talking, I'm talking Now let me, um, be very careful of what I'm saying here often people who didn't like coloured people. Then there was a next generation where coloured people and and and white people did get married and there were then people who didn't like that because they thought that was wrong. What is gonna happen to the Children? How will they know who they are? [01:15:00] Then? The next thing about gay people having Children. The same argument happened again. How will the Children know who they are? Well, the Children actually do know I I've grown up Children who do know who they are. But in the marriage thing for me, it was saying is Don't you dare tell me I can't do this. I mightn't want to do it, [01:15:30] But don't you tell me I can't. And that was the reason why when we had the civil Union, Bill wanted to have a three day affair. We were going to have this and that, and I sort of said, Well, I won't be there. I'll be there on the last hour when we do the thing. I'm not having a bloody thing for three days, and we were gonna You know, we're gonna shoot things and, you know, have fireworks and this and that, and I sort of said I didn't see the extrovert. I just wanted a quiet little thing with a couple of people and Bill, if possible, to be there. So what we did, [01:16:00] we actually went up to We said to people We've got three houses. They are jam packed with everything. We don't need anything it. It it's It was a fine day. Bring food and drink and let's have a picnic. And that's what we did. So the whole wedding cost us $50. You know, the whole thing. Then when the marriage thing was a bill came and said to me, I think we should probably [01:16:30] do this, don't you? And I see Are you in time? Meaning I don't want this again. It's not a matter of hiding it, because I certainly didn't with the with the civil Union. But I want it to be a natural part of my life. And I if he wants a celebration, well, I've got to go somewhere there. You know? I'm not going to the registry office, that's for sure. And somebody said, Who will lift the [01:17:00] veil? And I sort of said, Oh, Bill, you look so pretty and I want to go. Sorry, but what? What can I tell you? This what we did in the civil Union? I said, Well, Bill, you've been married once and you had a relationship with Jerome? Yeah. Did you ever propose to those people? And they said, no, I didn't do it. And I said, Oh, Here you go. So I said, I'm going to propose [01:17:30] to you. Are you sure that's all right? And he said, Well, I do So I asked him if you marry me and he said Yes and do whatever it was civil union. And then I said, No, it's your turn on your knees and he got on his knees. He said, No, I would be very honoured if you would actually be civil union partner. Would you do that? And I said, I have to think about he He was furious. [01:18:00] So he said, If we do the marriage thing, I'm not gonna ask you. I sort of said We'll decide that later. So for me, I mean I This is how I thought of it. And I remember talking with somebody, and I was, you know, marriage is, is is between a man and a woman. It's a sacred thing, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's about Children and you stay together. And I thought, Well, Henry the eighth would be turning over in his grave, [01:18:30] wouldn't he? You know this this gay marriage thing You know, when he promised Now I've said to people, they said, Well, they won't last. And I said, Well, we've only had it a year. You've had marriage equality for several 100 years and you still haven't got it right. There are still divorces. There are still all these types of things. We're not going to be 100%. We won't be. We might. It might be [01:19:00] quite high at the beginning. It will level out. It will level out. But you cannot judge us if two people get together and after five years they don't work because that's how long many of their marriages work. If there are Children in it, yes, that actually adds to things. But also the marriage things means that we are taking responsibility now. You actually get less. If you're married, you get less [01:19:30] on the pension, you get less. So you need to put all those things into perspective as well. And I did, and I said, No, it's still worth it for me. If if that's what Bill wants, it's still worth it. I I'd still do it, but I don't feel I need to, and I wouldn't do the Civil Union straight away. I wouldn't because I said to them, You know, there were people. I went to the first one in Wellington and you know, it was great and went holders and that, and it was wonderful. [01:20:00] But I said, But I want it to really work through so that we're seeing lots of people doing it. Not because I didn't want to do it so that when we're doing it, we're not doing it for show. We're doing it because we need to. And I'm not saying those people did either. But I said, we have to be really sure. And I said, and I think we're pretty sure because at that stage, we've been together for 14 years or something like that. So I sort of said, Well, yeah, you know, But that [01:20:30] was really it. And so what does it mean to you? Um, you can I still talk about Bill as my partner. Although people know and we will we will still talk about it. If people ask, we will say yes. We've had a civil union. What has it done? Um, I think it has done something. I think it has cemented some things. Um, this is the longest I've [01:21:00] ever been with one person. Uh, this is, I would say probably the deepest that I felt about this now that what may have happened with or without the Civil Union, because it was the time thing that actually happened. It's the time. But the civil Union was a celebration for my family, and one of my sisters at the time was [01:21:30] a very fundamentalist Christian, and she'd been on the anti gay marches and this and that, and my other brother and sister went butchers at her saying this the man he brought you up. You know, your dad and mom weren't there. You lived with him for four years, and now you're doing this and that or you and you still come in and out. So when we would get in the civil Union, I put, I said, Look, it's over to you be there and there was all this thing. Love the sin and not the sin, blah, blah, blah. [01:22:00] And then, um, she went to the the person and they sort of said, You will not go to that wedding. She said, See ya, you never tell my sisters they can't do somebody ever And as soon as they did, she said, she walked out. We didn't know if she was coming, she said. As soon as they said you can't I said, You don't tell me what to do I'll listen to all the other things and before that But you're not telling me this. [01:22:30] And then she said, because when she had a friend who died, the church that she was with and their way of thinking is to go. You know, it's all happy. We're going to, you know, blah, blah, blah, and that's fine. So I thought, Well, this is what she thinks, But my family, we're going on and we are Maori. So we went and she could hear us coming on and she burst into tears and everything and people said, You shouldn't do that And she said, I need to I need to This is [01:23:00] the only way I know how to do this And they said, But you were being so strong and she said it was really tearing me up. I never If I go to a park funeral, unless they ask me to do something, I will never impose Maori things I want. It's not my place to that family is in mourning they must mourn and we will mourn the way that they mourn. And I noticed the first time I noticed this, I think, was at Sir Keith Holyoak funeral. [01:23:30] Either him or no, I can't remember. But on one side, all the people and they were still it was very quiet. And my family were over there too. And so I went over and I was well on our side. We were sitting down, smoking, folding legs, laughing, cackling, laughing. The body arrives. They are silent and still we are in full regalia. Everything is going. The wings happened. He'd hardly got [01:24:00] into the church. We're sitting down again and said, Oh, what do you reckon about that you know? And then by the way they did that, did you think oh comes out? The part of our people are standing still. The same thing happens. We do the whole thing. As the hearse goes, everything goes. And it was It was Then I realised that I come from two cultures and they were born in different ways. And I saw the divide at that time because [01:24:30] I could hear my Maori people saying, in Maori they're really false. Nobody could stand like that and be like that. You just don't do that. But I also knew that my people were feeling the same way about us. But that was actually Kirk's Kurt's funeral. And, um, I remember thinking It's not that I have to be one or the other. I am both and I live well with with both [01:25:00] mhm and I would hope that I will have as much respect for the person rather than the culture. So expanding that out? Is that how you see culturalism in this in this country that that actually, I think it needs to, um, it's a difficult one, that question, because the goalpost keeps shifting. Now we've got everyone saying and you know, and people understand that [01:25:30] and you hear it and and then we shifted a bit further and a bit further and because and I please don't think I'm arrogant, But I do consider myself a bicultural person, all right. A lot of the people are scared because they don't know what it means. It is really having a respect for the other people. It's saying is I would like to learn a little bit more about you [01:26:00] so it doesn't mean I come to you and sort of say, Tell me everything about people you know. You know everything. But what happens to me is I'm Maori. Sometimes I'm expected to know everything I'm expected to know about carving, about calling the women's rights. The woman's this and that. And I have a smattering of them, as most people do of of any culture and maybe a little bit more because I've had to. But I don't know everything I don't. And when I often ask [01:26:30] somebody about our colleague of mine, I'm actually asking, What do they think about something within their culture? And I'm not quest saying is, Well, what do you think about that? You know, I'm saying is I would really like There might be another way for me to think about this as well. It very rarely happens, I might say, but it has happened. It has happened. But, um, [01:27:00] people are scared of it. And what they don't realise is that probably at least a quarter of your country. I mean, Maori. I think we're 16% but I think there is another 10% who are bicultural already, and English is the second culture for them, or it's the one that's coming up. And I do know bicultural people many, [01:27:30] and it doesn't mean they speak Maori. It might mean they speak German or French or this and that, but it means that they've. If if they've gone that far, they've had to look at a culture and they've actually become immersed in the culture. Um, so I also add that to the pot of saying, there are these bicultural people. So just because a person is white does not mean they're not bicultural. Just because a person is white does not mean. And [01:28:00] I'm talking about when we had the big the biggest allegations Welsh, Scottish and the Lap Landers, the next one, the people from parts of Japan, the next one people from parts of France. And people were saying that But you know, like not the Japanese so much. But they say, but they're all white and they said no, we were taken over by somebody else. Our languages are dying, so we get together and talk about this. So [01:28:30] I got I sort of laughed about it. We're all talking about it, but we have to use English as the language because it's the one we all understand, you know? And that's another, Um, I think that's quite another salient point is that I could learn and I do speak, you know, a tiny bit of a little bit of torn, you know, just the greetings and, you know, how are you and what's for tea and all that type of thing. But we use English as you know, and [01:29:00] when I'm in Tahiti, we will use French. Or I will use Maori sometimes because sometimes that's easier for us both. But I want to keep on with my French because although it's a long way behind English, it is the second, um, most spoken language in the Pacific, and that is a French Polynesia speaks it, and there's nearly half a million of them that speak it. And I don't think there's anyone else that does that, you know, Um, [01:29:30] so those are reasons, Um, do I? I think only a person knows if they're bicultural, and if they are a fear of it, it means they're not. If they embrace it, then they all they have to do. It's going one or two steps. That's all it is. Um, it's [01:30:00] not being afraid of what happened at the Treaty of Waitangi. It's not being afraid of bad things that were done on both sides. But it's not fair to say everything bad was done on Maori side and nothing on there. And when you can come to that, I do not want an apology from people I really don't. It's a waste of time. But I would like people to come on the journey and there are many [01:30:30] journeys. Um, I thought if I'd been a lesbian, I would have had all the all the negative points, all the points I could have got for grants and everything. You know, Maori minority, gay woman, all those things. And I sort of said, you know, But those are recent now one of the actual things that many people have made mistakes about. And I understand this because I used to think this too. Is that saying, as Maori have always had handouts and I've heard this a lot [01:31:00] Oh, they always got handouts, they got housing and I've tried to say to people the land that was illegally taken today is worth $50 billion. We took 1 billion. That's still, you know, the handouts that were given to us over 20 or 30 years was $100,000. So if I came and I [01:31:30] borrowed $1000 from you and then I said, Well, here's two cents. Be satisfied with it. Would you be satisfied? No. So and if I can put it into those terms, I also do another thing which, um, I'll use the pen and it's I'll speak it through, but I'll do it. I say Take something like a ring, but I'll use the pen and I'm a Maori. OK, now this is land. [01:32:00] This is land. OK, now, for some reason it's been stolen. How they got it. I don't know. They put a fence around it, but the police come around now and they say, No, no, we've always known it's these people's land. You don't have anything legal to it. It's back. OK, now, this time it's a gold P and it's got Greenstone on it, OK, it's stolen. I've got [01:32:30] the papers that says it's mine. But before we catch the thief, he forges some more papers and he sells it to somebody else. They buy it. We're now in the 18 seventies. The Boer War comes on and it is given to the soldier that goes and he is killed. But the pain comes back and this is to a family. It is then handed down to the next soldier [01:33:00] and he goes to war and he is killed. It comes back, it goes to the family again. It happens again and again. Then finally, it comes to you. And Papa is having this huge exhibition now. And it's about pens that were done and people are bringing them. And you bring yours. There it is. But I've got a photograph here over here, and it's got all the marks and everything on it that says on it. But this has gone through your family [01:33:30] through every generation, through pain and everything. And you've got your deeds. Who does it belong to? That's what we're dealing with. That's what we're dealing with, something as simple as that. Now, for me, I would say, Well, really, it does belong to me, but we'd have to really look at this. That's you've got to be able to look at those difficulties and face them. And so when I was teaching, I would have [01:34:00] Maori and students when we were doing the Treaty of Waitangi and I would make the Maori say we don't want it and the people to say it as we do get them to play each other and the people actually understood what I was doing. The Maori people didn't and they got really angry at the arguments that were coming and I said, No, you got to keep going back Keep going back, Come back, come back, come back. It wasn't till four years later when they went to court. [01:34:30] They knew they could be passionate but not emotional, and they could put their arguments forward because what I was teaching the woman is you need to argue the point, not the person. If you get emotional, we'll all pat you on the back and we say, Oh, how awful you are, but you'll lose. You'll lose. It's not about not having passion, but it's actually really working out arguments and I would hope I would do this for anyone who was the underdog, whether they be black [01:35:00] white. I don't care if I felt something is wrong, I will defend those people. I do that at the Papa and people, stupid people. When I've gone to the people upstairs, they say, Yeah, but this is not a Maori thing And I said, I never said it was but one of my mates has actually been, you know, that they said, but he's a park and I sort of said, He's my mate and you've done this wrong. Now I will call him the Union. I will call him this and that And if you really want me to, [01:35:30] I will call another Maori people if that's got get, gets it moving and I've only had to do that once, but they know I will do it, because if somebody is wronged, I don't care what colour they are. If they're wrong, they're wrong and you don't. And sometimes I've had to go up against my own Maori people for that because I said No, this person is right, you are wrong and that's part of my bicultural journey. That's how I see it. [01:36:00] I see it defending each other of being together in good times and in bad of not being afraid. I have a thing at Te Papa, which I say to which is the thing that I brought in, especially with our team. Nobody will ever stop me speaking Maori When I speak Maori and Papa, I will. But I will never, ever talk about somebody behind who can't understand [01:36:30] me. I will talk in front of them. But I will never talk about them. I will never do. And once we've got that established people then just started enjoying us speaking Maori. And then if we burst out laughing then we'd say something in English and we'd try and get it how it happened. Now I had one young Maori woman, beautiful speaker of Maori, actually, and one day she used. She used a transliteration for her name and [01:37:00] then proceeded to speak about this person and because he didn't understand the trans iteration and she wouldn't look at him. She talked and I went straight into English and she looked at me and she then just shifted the conversation. We spoke in Maori and I kept her speaking in English and I did this for three days and she said, Why are you speaking to me in English and everyone else in Maori? And I said, because you broke the one rule and she said, but he didn't know And I said, Yeah, but I did, and we don't speak [01:37:30] of it. So you will hear Chinese being spoken Hindi, German, French and that Maori Oh, in English. So in English being spoken. And you do that on the proviso you must not speak ill of anyone. If you do, you have to speak it in the language that they understand. And this young woman said to me, But the French people were saying things about you and they even [01:38:00] used your name and I. I understood what they were saying just as simple as that. That's bicultural. One of the things that really struck me I was I was reading, um, some background material on you before I came today. And, um, you had talked in an interview about, um through storytelling, finding, uh, warmth and unexpected places through different audiences. And I'm wondering if that's a, um maybe, um, if you can comment [01:38:30] on that as a way of rounding up what it happens is that when you do it, I always say my culture is no better than yours, OK, so it brings people in and it doesn't matter what they look like, what their colour is. Hopefully I'm coming to them as an equal. And sometimes you've really I have to really push that because I'm on a stage. I've got lights coming at me. I've got all those things happening. [01:39:00] And if people cannot come up to you afterwards, I'm not saying I got. But if people don't feel that they can come up to you and ask you questions, say wonderful things or, um, how can they do something then? I'm not doing the work right. If Children are and I do answer, I really do answer. And I do when? When I'm when I'm doing storytelling. When I've done a film [01:39:30] or something, I get a lot of fan mail. I answer every letter. I answer every email so you can Obviously I'm not that famous, because otherwise I'd never be able to do it. But when I was in Scotland, this group of Children, when I got back here, these 40 Children had written letters about the story, and I want to know why I didn't tell Scottish stories and this and I wrote to each child individually and [01:40:00] I sent the letters back to them and I thanked them all. And I kept the letters for a year. Then, I think after that well, you know, I. I bet they haven't kept mine. Now they're eight. But what happened is the teacher emailed me and said We just never expected you. We thought you might do a blanket one. Every child has got their letter. And then he said So all the other Children Now I want to do it. And I said no. I said these ones did it. [01:40:30] They didn't know they were going to get a letter. They did it. Now the other ones are going to expect a letter. And what this was was the surprise for those Children. Um, and one, we were all sort of said to me, But you're in Scotland. Why didn't you do Scottish stories? Because wouldn't that be best? And I wrote to her and I said only the Scots can tell the best stories in Scotland. And I hope when you grow up that you will come to my country [01:41:00] Aotearoa New Zealand and you will tell the Scottish stories because we need to hear them from the Scots people and teacher sent me another. Um no rang me and sort of said, This little girl is crying and she's so happy and she's going to learn all the Scottish stories and she's going to tell them to you. She's going to write to you And she wrote a story to me and II. I knew she was right, and I said to the teacher, Of course, let her write the story [01:41:30] but tell her I'm going to hold it till she comes here And then I'm going to magically give it back to her. And then I'm going to introduce her and she's going to tell the story. And the teacher went now and I'm crying. If we can get people an audience, are your guests. And if they have taken the time to get look, you've got millions [01:42:00] of dollars worth of film work. Millions billions. Television is doing great work. They have taken the time to come and see you. Some of them have meant they've had to get babysitters or they've had to travel a long way to come. They're your guests. The most I've ever performed for at one stage is 10,000. The least I've performed for is five, and they were all my guests. [01:42:30] And that's how I treat when I'm on. When I do camera work, when I do anything, the people they are paying to see me, if I don't treat them as guests, then I'm not worth being there. I should not be there because I consider myself a worker and a worker for the people. And although people sort of say, Oh, yeah, but you you get limousines and everything and I said, Yeah, not every day I get them when I'm on films and and you certainly come back to Earth. When you get into the and you're getting into your [01:43:00] little blue uniform and you're doing the dishes, you know, it's certainly, you know, when I'm living in hotels and all the dishes are done. But I know what I am. I know where I am, You know what I mean? And the only complaints that people have when I'm in hotels is that I make my beds. I make my bed every day and I make my bed and I do the dishes and I keep everything clean, that sort of shit We're paid to do this. Please don't do it. It'll drop our pay. [01:43:30] Yeah, because my my mom one of the things she did say to me is You're not better than anyone. People aren't better than you. You make sure you treat everyone well Because I was a cleaner. She'd say that I was a cleaner. And I know what it's like when people look down on you and I Hopefully I maintain that [01:44:00] for us.
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