Ralph Knowles [AI Text]

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Well, uh, my name is Ralph Knowles. Uh, and I was born in Dunedin. Uh, in 1944. Um, our household was a pretty typical North Dunedin household, And those days it was a very residential neighbourhood. So that, uh, there were Children in our house? I have, uh, three siblings, uh, and another brother who died before I was born, which is another part of my story. But, um, and [00:00:30] neighbouring Children all went to the same school. Um, very different now, because the University of Otago has bought every property I've had any contact with in Dunedin. Uh, and there are now, um, university facilities on those sites. But, um uh, a happy fifties childhood. Um I mean, I think now of Dunedin has been very cold and and wet, but in my memory, they were They were [00:01:00] summer days playing with with George and Anne and Frances and Peter and other people in the in the neighbourhood. And I went to state primary and state secondary schools. Nothing very unusual there. Although the primary school I was in was a, um, a model attached to the Dunedin Teachers College, and it was designed to, uh, give trainee students. The opportunity, [00:01:30] um, to meet the sort of set they would find if they were teaching in a country school so that it was standard 1 to 4. And it was all people from one neighbourhood. So I had siblings and neighbours in in my class at at George Street Normal. You mentioned about your your brother passing away. What happened there? Uh, he died at age eight, of a brain tumour, Um, in 1943. So [00:02:00] that was in the war. And my father wasn't at home. He he didn't leave New Zealand, but he was away in armed forces. Um, Barry was a obviously a a bright and likeable uh, boy. And the impact of his death, uh, was very, very strong on my mother. So that I I was really in my twenties before we could risk [00:02:30] openly referring to Barry. Not that mum, you know, went hysterical or or made a scene or anything. But you just knew that this was an area that, um that you should stay away from. And my aunt suggested to me once that I do the arithmetic of when I would have been conceived in relation to the first anniversary of Barry's death. I think it's quite likely that Dad was home on leave on [00:03:00] that anniversary. So Barry died January 1943. Dad at home, January 1944. Ralph was born in November 1944. My aunt, my aunt raised that with me. Uh, just didn't make anything of it, but just suggested that I'd do the arithmetic. Who knows? Um, I think to some extent I was the son who replaced Barry. And [00:03:30] since in those early days the psychiatrists were always wanting to know what your relationship with your mother was like and whether your father was absent and all that sort of business, I can't help wondering if there was some significance to that. Can you give me some examples as to why you thought that it was really only once I started reading about homosexuality and and the endless causes, you know, absent father, a father, [00:04:00] dominant mother and all that stuff. Uh, in those days when they were when they were really pushing the family relationships as a likely cause of homosexuality, and so I was reflecting on it and looking for anything that might have been different for me. I don't actually hold by it now. I'm but I did think about at the time. So how would you describe yourself as a child? [00:04:30] Um, happy Bit, Bit weedy, um, you know, inclined to bronchitis and asthma and things like that, but not not clinically. So, um and, um, intelligent got on well, with my with my school mates Got good, good results at school. Um, socially confident. Um, some of those [00:05:00] things faded as the years went by, but, uh, that's that's how I see myself. Uh, we've still got We've still got the minute book of the class meetings from about 1954 to 58. And, of course, my sister was also in the class, and I've already mentioned two neighbours and you know, Ralph Noles said, and and the chairman, Ralph Knowles ruled, and all this sort of thing it was This was the teacher's attempt at introducing us [00:05:30] to to democracy or Democratic processes. Uh, and it's really quite embarrassing to read that minute book now. But the Knowles family had a lot to say in those meetings. So can you paint for me a picture of what it was like just post war 19 fifties Dunedin. What? How was it like growing up in in that kind of environment? Um, I wasn't aware of missing out on anything, Really. I mean, I knew that there were other parts of town where people [00:06:00] were better off. Uh, but, you know, some of the measures in the neighbourhood? Uh, not everyone had a car, but we did not. Everyone had a telephone, but we did. Um, we had one of the larger properties in terms of area. Uh, most of the houses nearby had two houses on a section the size of ours. So we had a big front lawn, so we were often the centre of of neighbourhood, um, games and [00:06:30] and so forth. Um, all sorts of things that are so different now, you know, there was a corner dairy. Uh, you went you walked a few blocks to the butcher or or in a pre supermarket. I actually had a job as a as a delivery boy for the local dairy. And, uh, during that time. So, um, around age 12 by the end. So what are we saying? Mid fifties? Um, he he started [00:07:00] the sort of mini market. He started to serve yourself. Until then, it had been a counter behind which you stood and served customers and and so on. Um, the church was nearby. All Saints church. Um, all saints church Figured a lot in my early days there. I was born on All Saints Day. Uh, and my 21st birthday was the the day that the parish turned 100. So it was all terribly, you know, significant. I'm not [00:07:30] suggesting meant in any way, but it was just, you know, significant. Um, I went to Sunday school there, uh, joined the boys choir before my voice changed. Uh, and after that, I became a server. Um, that's one of the altar service. We belong to what was called the Guild of Servants of the Sanctuary and took it all terribly seriously. That led on to my sense of vocation to the Anglican priesthood. So you know that my [00:08:00] my involvement in church activities Sunday school, Bible class choir serving and so on was quite significant, which was interesting. Mum was a reasonably dedicated Anglican dad, was agnostic, if not atheist and really didn't show much interest at all in, uh, in our religious upbringing. So what drew you to the church in the first place? Look, really, Just that it was a bit like, [00:08:30] you know, you went to school, you went to Sunday school. It was nothing more significant than that. But, um, many people just have something in life where that that fascinates them. Um, in the case of my partner, David, with whom I lived for many years, it was it was horse racing. He had a lot of other interests, too, some more intellectual than horse racing. But, uh, and and he and I used to joke about it because my interest in religion [00:09:00] and his interest in horse racing were much the same in terms of the practical impact. You know, if you if I saw an article in the paper about the church overseas or some theologian, I was fascinated by it. If he saw an article about some scandal in the horse racing industry was and you know, they both had a calendar in the sense that there were the, you know, the church calendar of events during the year and the and the racing calendar was the same. Uh, there were rituals, Church rituals and, you know, the parading [00:09:30] around the the bird cage at a at a race meeting colours, eucharistic vestments and purple and green and red and so on. And then jockey's colours. And we joked about the fact horse racing wasn't really all that important to him. Uh, but he was fascinated by it and couldn't pass by any piece of information about horse racing. And I was a bit the same about about religion. Um, as an adult, it's meant more [00:10:00] than that. Um, but I'm I'm not a fervent believer. I'm heavily involved, but I'm not actually a F believer, Uh, which is a strange sort of thing, but it's just any piece of news. Any you know, I now subscribe to several websites and and online news services. I read them every day. So back in 19 fifties Dunedin, [00:10:30] what was your world made up of? In terms of the diversity of people in your world? North Dunedin in those days was white. Uh, it's going to add Anglo Saxon Protestant, but that's not quite fair. There were Catholic families, Uh, but we didn't really have anything to do with them. They went. They went to other schools. Um, we were aware of them. There was a certain amount of shouting abuse at each other, but it was all pretty lighthearted, so [00:11:00] the neighbourhood was really very monochrome. Um, but among my friends, several boys, several girls, Um, I had sisters. My older brother had more or less left home. By the time I was growing up, there was quite an age gap between us. Um, not a not a wide range of socioeconomic difference. Uh, although there were families in the district which we were conscious [00:11:30] of being better off, um, particularly if they had overseas funds and could, in those days, buy a, uh, an English or an American car and which, in in the fifties in New Zealand was really reserved to farmers and doctors. And in the case of our neighbourhood, the our father, Charles Harrison, was English and obviously still had overseas funds. So he had [00:12:00] new English cars. What about in terms of, uh, homosexuality? Was there any mention when you were growing up of homosexuality? Uh, not not as such, um, about, uh, I was aware of adult conversation about some people whom I now know are homosexual and I knew that they were being talked about in a in sort [00:12:30] of some slight, scandalous way. Uh, I had the the gym teacher at Dunedin North Intermediate. So we're talking in 56 57. By the 1956 1957 the gym teacher there was known to be gay. Uh, he went on to become, um, a professional actor and appeared in one or two, English TV programmes. Uh, there were other people around who were known to be gay. And I'm thinking [00:13:00] William, Menlo and Bernard who were prominent people in the in the theatre scene in Dunedin, and I should at some point mention the theatre scene in Dunedin because it was significant in my adolescent years. Um, so just an awareness that the that that there were men who lived with us. Really? What I would say with men? Um, no, [00:13:30] I don't remember any sense of disgust or scandal, Really, But, uh, and yet I still picked up the impression that this was all a bit sort of doubtful, you know, not not quite proper. We're using the word gay. Is that a word that would have been used for what what wording would be used? No, Um, one of them, [00:14:00] that was Is he one of them? You know, that was that was pretty difficult. I don't remember what was what was said there was There was some theory that you were a bit suspicious if you wore white socks. I remember that, Uh, who knows, You know, real men wear pink these days, but in those days, white socks were were a giveaway. Um, I. I mean, I've been thinking about other words that were used at the [00:14:30] time, but I'm not suggesting that they were used in my family or in conversation that I ever heard. But, you know, deviant queer, uh, invert, uh, fairy, uh, faggot. More US than New Zealand. But fairy was reasonably common. And then the other ones, you know, shirt lifter and poo pusher and other things like that. So were they words that you actually heard at the time, or is this reflecting [00:15:00] back a bit of both? Queer? Certainly. Um, would be would be the main one. So, what age were you aware of these conversations starting to happen? Well, I think I would have been about 10 or 11. So saying 1954 55. It was at about that time that I was becoming sexually aware myself. Uh, though [00:15:30] I couldn't at those at that time, I put the the label homosexual on myself. But by then I knew that I was growing up differently from my boyhood friend George. Uh, as his sexual awareness developed, he was interested in women and looking at the magazine for pictures of of nude women and so forth, and I realised that I wasn't really interested. Um, [00:16:00] and thinking back, uh, I've got I've still got a couple of books that were given to me Children's books that were given to me, uh, in as early as 1952 which had illustrations in them, uh, of of men who who near naked or naked. I mean, one was, uh, how the Maoris lived. And there was a picture of of, you know, um, tattooed buttocks. And there was AAA story about Aladdin, where [00:16:30] the genie was wearing nothing but a sort of loin cloth. And I was fascinated by those. Now we're talking in 1952 53. So I'm sort of 89, but by 10 or 11 I was really aware of the difference between the way George George's interests were developing and the way my interests were developing. [00:17:00] Can you give me some examples of why do you say that? Why? I can't remember exactly why we were doing it. But the the I mentioned the capping magazine before, uh, there was a camping magazine that had that had some caricature or cartoon picture of a nude woman on it. And George was George wanted me. I was a bit more artistic than he was. George wanted me to trace that and, you know, and and and and copy it for him and so forth. And I thought, [00:17:30] I'm much more interested in in the picture of Superman in his tights, do you know? And And I was conscious of that, um, and there was another another occasion when there was a There was an exhibition of of nude photography at Glen way down the Otago Peninsula. Well, George, you know, we got our bikes and we biked all the way down, and we tried to get into Glen, but we [00:18:00] didn't have and so on. I mean, it was just he he he was obsessed with the idea of getting to see this photographic exhibition. And I sort of thought Oh, yeah. So those thoughts that you were starting to have and that the the being conscious of of, uh, feelings towards men can you describe what those feelings were? Was it just [00:18:30] an intense interest? Or was it something? No. An intense interest. Um, uh, I mean, at that age, boyhood friendships are more intense than friendships with girls. Anyway, uh, so it was only once we were getting past that point that I that the the different social interest became evident. I can't be more specific than that, Really. It just AAA growing awareness that my interest was in the male [00:19:00] body when other boys interest was in the female body. And did that concern you? No, not really. Um, being being homosexual is never really greatly concerned me, which is an interesting thing when we're going to eventually be talking about aversion therapy. But, uh um and you know, a lot of people might think, [00:19:30] you know, did you realise it was wrong? Well, I don't think I ever thought of it as wrong. I thought of it as different. I did know that it wasn't something that you talked about. That's not quite the same thing as as thinking it was wrong. I mean, later on, I knew that the church identified it as sinful, and I tried to address that. But not even that really exercised me greatly. I think I was remarkably lucky [00:20:00] from that point of view that a lot of people of my generation were, uh, overwhelmed by guilt and shame. And neither of those has really been part of my life, which I think is something of the, uh, security of my upbringing and a happy family. So, as as a as a, uh, as a teenager or a young boy growing up, Um, did you actively go around looking for people with white socks? [00:20:30] No, but I was fascinated by this. Um, I must have picked up clearly. Well, we talked before about it being men who lived with men. Uh, I was certainly intrigued by that. And then, as as I developed, knew once I was sexually, um, maturing. Well, that was quite different. I mean, um, by then I wasn't just looking for men with white socks. [00:21:00] What about the theatre scene in Dunedin. You were saying that was quite a big part of your growing up as well. Um, in, I think, 1959. That's my fourth form year. Uh, a a friend. A high school friend, um, introduced me to the Globe Theatre. The production that year was hemlock, and they wanted a couple of boys to play [00:21:30] the king and the queen in the play within the play. And Keith was the king was the queen, and I was the king. And so we became involved in the Globe Theatre Patrick and Rosalie Carey. And, uh, that was absolute news to me. I'd never been to a theatre production in my life before. My family, um, they quite well read and reasonably cultured, [00:22:00] uh, weren't involved in theatre or anything of that sort. And so I was fascinated by all that and fascinated by the people that I met there as well. Uh, and I went on and was in the duchess of and waiting for, uh, always as a as a boy and rex. I was the boy that led the blind Tyus around and waiting for God. I. I was the boy that that turns up [00:22:30] and talks to them in the last stages of the play. Um, and so II. I became aware then that of of people who were obviously or theatrical obvious, uh, several of whom were homosexual and one or two of whom I came across, Uh, later. Not that I socialise with them, but II I met them here and there. Um, and [00:23:00] it was significant because, um, my French teacher knew that I was a wee bit involved in in the theatre world. And so when the university French club, or Fran wanted a boy for a play, my French teacher put my name forward. So I was II. I played the boy, the school boy in a production that the French club at the university was putting on [00:23:30] and one of the other bit part players who was a few years older than me, perhaps six years older than me had been at boys. Um, he and I were both on at the beginning of the play and the end of the play. So we were hanging around for an hour or more in between times, and he he propositioned me. He introduced the topic. Had I read Peyton Place now, many people won't even remember Peyton Place. But war was a was [00:24:00] a raunchy novel at the time. Uh, and I said, yes, I had. And And did it turn me on? Yes, it did. And that led to my first significant sexual experience with another man. And, uh, I can I can still feel the impact, the excitement of undoing his flight. I mean, you know, we're talking 55 years later. Um, [00:24:30] So the theatre world had put me in touch with that. That was my first significant sexual experience. Uh, and I treasure that moment. Really? And so I'm wondering what happened between being kind of sexually active at 14 and 15 and not necessarily having a problem with homosexuality and then wanting to go and seek treatment for homosexuality. [00:25:00] What? What? What happened? Let's bring two things together. Um, my interest in the church, my increasing involvement with, you know, Bible class altar servers and so forth. I. I thought I assumed a vocation to the Anglican priesthood. So that's one thing on one side. On the other is that I then knew that I was homosexual. Um, I couldn't have put this description on by then, but I But I can now say [00:25:30] that I'm McKinsey six. That is to say, someone who is completely and utterly homosexual and devoid of heterosexual reaction. Um, so you've got those two things and they were intention, um, not worried about being gay, but wanting to be in the church and knowing the church wasn't all that thrilled about that. What really brought it to a head was that in my first year or two at Selwyn [00:26:00] at Otago University in 1963 64. So by then, I'm 1920. I began a relationship, a sexual relationship with one of the other theological students. Now we both we were both in the same parish, and we both reported to the same parish priest who was very good to me, but also was appalled [00:26:30] that this guy and I were in a sexual relationship. And to be fair, um I mean, I think I think the guy was probably basically heterosexual and certainly went on and married and had kids and so forth. Um, I. I don't know quite what why he allowed himself to be involved, but anyway, we were We were sexually involved for a short period of time, and and the parish priest knew both our stories [00:27:00] and wasn't happy with that and suggested to me that that really, uh, homosexuality was a problem, Uh, and that we ought to do what we could about addressing it. And he suggested that I consult the student health psychiatrist, um, which I was perfectly happy to do. And that student [00:27:30] health psychiatrist was Dr Basil James who, uh, I now know, uh had pioneered, um, aversion therapy in England. So we're now talking late 1964. And by then I'd done a lot of reading about homosexuality. I had read reports of psychoanalysis and various, you know, group therapy and [00:28:00] those what? I couldn't see any of those having any effect on me, but I've never heard of behavioural therapy. And Basil James explained the behaviourist approach to human sexuality, said that he thought that my homosexual interests were were, um, learned and that if something [00:28:30] had been learned whenever, but if something had been learned, it could be unlearned. And he was he was a proponent of behaviour modification. Just before we go on with, uh, with that, I'm just wondering if you can just rewind a wee bit. And with the the priest saying it was a problem, Do you think that at the time the wider community felt that homosexuality was a problem? [00:29:00] Look, I never experienced it, but, I mean, it was still, uh, as far as medicine was concerned. That's what we're talking about. It was sick. Uh, as far as the law was concerned, it was a crime. As far as the church was concerned, it was a sin. And, um, if you read in the papers truth in particular, uh, the reports of scandalous things I have to say most of the things I read about in in the newspapers [00:29:30] at the time tended to be what we would now call, um, paedophilia. And that's never been the issue for me. Uh, I mean, I was interested as a as a young man. I was interested in older men and was an older man. I'm interested in younger men, but never in never in kids. It was never it was never an issue. Um, and most of the newspaper reports were about those sorts of cases, [00:30:00] but one guy that I met quite often on the beat uh, and once went home with and whose name I know, um appeared in the court papers he'd been He'd been arrested for loitering, uh, and was convicted and was jailed. So but that that was that. So that was what the the wider world thought about it. But I wasn't conscious of that in my own in my own family or [00:30:30] even in the neighbourhood. Unspoken rather than I mean, just not talked about rather than talked about with revulsion or disgust. And did you have any conflict within yourself about what you were doing? I really didn't. I guess I should have, But I really didn't. Um I knew this was me. Um, in so far as I thought about it, I thought, Well, OK, God's [00:31:00] created me in this way. Can't be all bad. I might have a lot of thoughts about how I dealt with it, what I did with it. But in terms of actually being homosexual, it's It's never I just thought Oh, yeah, OK, well, that's who I am. And so your relationship with this other student, uh uh, did you ever talk about what you were doing or it was just more of a physical thing. Physical thing. Really? Yeah. [00:31:30] I mean, I was in love with him. Was he with me? Who knows? Uh, I mean, we spent all our spare time with each other. We went away on holidays together. Um, um, this is before it became sexual. We'd we'd we'd been best friends for a year or two by then. Um, and just, you know, 11 night he'd been teasing me about sexually. I mean, uh, and [00:32:00] I just said, basically put up or shut up and he put up teasing you. In what way? Oh, I just knew I was gay and and knew that I found him attractive. Um, yeah, just being a bit provocative in the way we were right on holiday, saying just a bit provocative in the way he, um, undressed or the way the way he talked about himself. [00:32:30] And so you and he would both tell the priest what was what was going on. Well, we were both high anglicans. Um, if, um, which meant that sacramental confession was part of the church discipline. Uh, and what you, you know, fronted up to where you thought you'd fallen short of the standard and expressed regret for her. [00:33:00] So that's that's That's the context in which it would come out. Uh, and he would he the parish priest would have needed because he'd heard it from me. I was just thinking about conflict of, of, of a confessional secrecy. But anyway, he, uh that that's how that's how he came to suggest that I see student health psychiatrist. Was there anything you didn't tell the priest? No, [00:33:30] no, no. That wasn't that wasn't the deal, Really? You fronted up. He was a He was a good guy. He he, uh, quite apart from the business with this other student, he, uh he was also unhappy on my behalf with the amount of cruising I was doing. And he, uh he was really quite kind. It must have been pre decimal currency. I guess it was That was 67 wasn't it? Because he, uh, he he gave he gave [00:34:00] me a A coin. Uh, I think it was a penny, uh, which would have been the cost of a telephone call. And he said, I want you to carry this with you. And if you are ever in trouble or if you feel you've got yourself into a situation which you can't handle. Or indeed, if you just want to stop what you are doing, you ring me at any time, day or night. I never did, but, uh, there was a It was a pretty [00:34:30] pastorally sensitive way of approaching things. I thought so. What did you think When, uh, it was suggested that you you go and talk to a psychiatrist? I really thought that. See that this parish priest was also one of the bishops advisors. So he had some responsibility for the formation of, uh, theological students. And I thought that I thought it was reasonable for him to say this is a problem. I mean, I couldn't [00:35:00] quite imagine. Yeah, it's all a bit different now, But in those days, um, by and large, anger and clergy were expected to be, you know, happily married. So although there were a few, um, celibate or single clergy around, um, I, I guess I accepted that life would be easier as an Anglican priest if I was straight. I had no great desire to be straight [00:35:30] and had no great belief that anything I'd heard of up to then would make any difference, but that nevertheless, uh, life would probably be easier. And if the church was asking me to give this a go, then I should give it a go. I still think that was the right thing to do the and we're jumping ahead. But it having failed, I felt I'd given it a go. I had done [00:36:00] what was expected of me. It hadn't worked, and it was time to get on with life at the time. I mean, we're talking about, um, kind of gay and straight at the time. Was it conceivable to have a, for instance, a gay lifestyle where you actually lived quite happily with another man? Or are we talking gay, being sexual encounters that were kind of random? And, uh, [00:36:30] I was certainly thinking of of a partner that I lived with, and I just couldn't see Ralph and David, uh, being accepted in the Winton Vicarage. Now it's a bit unfair on Winton, isn't it? I'm just thinking, if you a rural south or South Otago, I just you know, it just, uh although it happens now, uh, it it just that wasn't you couldn't really contemplate that. [00:37:00] Um I don't know how I thought we were going to manage that if, uh, but it was certainly worth giving changing a go when this new behaviourist theory had been put to me. Can you recall how you felt? Uh uh, uh, Waiting to to see the psychiatrist for the first time. Uh, it was It was late in the academic [00:37:30] year. I think I was pretty just sort of, um, focused on finals and that sort of thing. I don't remember any particular anxieties. Having agreed to go into hospital for this treatment really was an issue because I felt I really felt very strongly that I had to tell my parents what I was and what I was doing about it. And [00:38:00] that was a big, big tension. We got to the stage, the parish priest and I where I said, I really want to do it. I'm really dreading it. I I've got to do it. Uh, but if I don't get round to it, will you do it? And he said, Of course I will. I'll talk to your mother. One fact, I came out to Mom on the on the eve of going into hospital we'll come back to getting into hospital and telling your parents in a tick. But I'm just wondering when you first had the [00:38:30] meeting with Dr James, what was it like? Um, coming forward with the idea of homosexuality and and and seeing it as a problem. What? How did you How did you verbalise What was going on with you? I think, really, Just that that I was conscious that I was homosexual, that I was homosexually active, uh, that this was incompatible with the church's expectations. And, you [00:39:00] know, obviously he he knew how I had been referred. Um, that the the the preliminary interviews were were really a bit of a farce. I, I suppose I've read enough about, you know, psychotherapy and so forth. Um, you know, it was all the same old stuff, you know, talking about your mother and your father and your relationship with your siblings. You know, whether you've ever been, um, sexually interfered with and all sorts of perfectly standard [00:39:30] stuff reasonable for them to be asking. But you sort of thought Oh, here we go. It all seemed terribly predictable. And what was his attitude? Uh, he was a cool number Basil Jones. And I think that he I think he felt strongly that homosexuality was an unacceptable deviance and that [00:40:00] and that his professional duty was to do what he could to eradicate it. Um, because I certainly didn't present to him as a terribly troubled homosexual who had some heterosexual component that could be built on. I mean, I've since read enough about it to know that's the sort of thing they're looking for. Well, you know, someone who was really distressed, really determined to change [00:40:30] and who had some heterosexual experience. Um, and that just wasn't me. So what kind of language did he use? Can you remember that? Um I don't really, um I've I've since acquired his notes. Um, but they're almost illegible, and they're very, very brief and cryptic, so I really can't build. I can't recover that [00:41:00] cryptic In what way? What? Uh, just, you know, just the odd word. And and an abbreviation and and that sort of thing. Just a few little scratches on a page. Really? I'm sure they meant something to him at the time, but, uh, they they didn't mean much to me. I don't know. 50 years later. And how did he introduce the concept of behavioural therapy? He explained behavioural therapy that learned behaviour could be unlearned, uh, and [00:41:30] that, you know, the the number of troubling behaviours, uh, that could be addressed through a behaviour modification and mentioned, um, alcoholism. Gambling certainly gave you a fair indication of where he thought he fitted into the whole scheme of things, um and and and and then [00:42:00] just got straight into explaining what the actual process would be. Did he say if he had done this treatment before in New Zealand, He didn't. I I've since researched that. Yeah, no, I have no awareness of, uh I don't think I even I don't think it was even a reference to him having claimed success overseas. I mean, I know now that he had, but, um, that's not part of my memory of [00:42:30] it. So how did he sell it to you? Um, you've said you think it would be a good idea to address your problem. And here is this new or the Here is this process, which you have not previously considered. Um and I. I recommend that you undertake this treatment where there are other options [00:43:00] available in terms of treatments not offered by him. I mean, I guess there were, you know, psychotherapy. Well, to to be fair, when I because I wrote to him well, after their version therapy. And he did at that point, talk about, uh, other possibilities, particularly group therapy. Um, my experience of any sort of, um, group therapy of that sort tends to be that, [00:43:30] uh, you know, you certainly share your problems, but my view is that if there were two or three gay people in a group, you'd be far more likely to end up having sex than than than addressing you than addressing the problem. I don't know. So he he then went through the procedure of of actually what would happen. And how did you describe that? Uh, in very neutral terms. Uh, and [00:44:00] some of the details I didn't tune into at the time. It was only once I was actually there that I realised how awful it was gonna be. Really? Um, I don't mean he misled me. Uh, it just means that he concentrated sort of on the theory of it. You know, he did tell me what what would happen that he would be using a drug. I don't think he ever identified it, though I now know what it is. Um um, that there'll be a drug, and it would make me say I had to provide erotic images [00:44:30] and some anecdotes. Um, that I had found exci that would excite me. And he he used those anecdotes to make up a tape. Uh, that was played at the same time, Uh, of the treatment. Um, so I just describe what was involved. I. I, um the first thing I need to comment on is that I was admitted [00:45:00] to COHOON Ward in Dunedin, which was the psychiatric ward. Now, that's not a good start. And in those days, forgetting whether homosexuality was a particular issue, mental illness certainly was. And you certainly look twice at people who'd been in cohoon. Is this a public hospital? Yeah. Even in public. So into a small room, blacked out bed, nothing else. Um, the [00:45:30] first treatment dose of a tumbler of whiskey, a shot of apomorphine in the bum play. The tape starts off with the the anecdote. That's exciting. And then within a minute or so says, you know, um this is making you feel ill. You are feeling very sick. You are. And at that point, of course, the morphine effect and you throw up the whiskey and that's that session over. [00:46:00] After the first session, my blood pressure dropped drastically. I don't know why, but did so they had sort of modify things. And after that the sessions were every two hours, with some glucose and lime in between. No food through this period and no leaving the room. So I must have I must have urinated and defecated in the room. II. I don't actually remember that. Although I do remember the room getting you [00:46:30] know, more and more foul. I mean, he's a young man, early twenties, sweating and puking all over the place. So that was pretty grim. And that followed every two hours. So apomorphine and the tape, then followed by glucose and Lyme and then followed by another session of om morphine in the tape, on and on and on. How long were you there for? The records show? Nine days. I'm surprised [00:47:00] at that. I didn't think I was there that long. I mean, I knew I'd put up with several days of it. And then I decided I've had enough of this and I insisted When the arteries came in to give me another dose, I insisted on seeing Basil James. So he we had a discussion in which I said, Look, this is enough is enough I'm not continuing with this and he sort of said, Oh, you know, what would my parents think? And if I gave [00:47:30] up? And what would the church think if I gave up and da da da And he said, I really do suggest that you that you continue with this treatment So I said, OK, I will. And that appeared. The fact that I had now apparently acknowledged and given a commitment to continuing to attempt to go on with this attempt to change me apparently was what he was looking for because immediately the treatment stopped. [00:48:00] I'm up. I'm showered. The rooms curtains are put up. Flowers are put in the middle aged males turned into new young females. I still do. You see what I mean? II. I presume it was my commitment to continuing that he was looking for anyway. So that was session one. I want to go back over session one, just in a wee bit [00:48:30] more detail. But, uh, we haven't picked up the story of coming out to your parents. Can you recount how that happened? Yeah, well, uh, I mean, I felt that I couldn't. I mean, I didn't know how long I was going to be in hospital, but, you know, obviously it was going to be about 10 days at least. And I felt I really can't just disappear like this. It's just not what my relationship with Mum and Dad is like. So on the night before I went in, [00:49:00] I finally got around to talking to Mum. She was doing ironing, and I sort of said, Mum, you know, you you know, you know, I'm now turned 20 I still don't have a girlfriend. And you may have noticed on my bookshelf that there are a number of books about homosexuality. Uh, and I think I need to say that that's what I am and that I'm going into hospital for some treatment. That may make a difference to this. [00:49:30] And she said you'll need clean pyjamas. So that was I, you know, that was her matter of fact caring for her son response, and we really didn't talk about it. Anyway, she didn't want to talk about it anymore, but she accepted and accepted as what was happening. I don't think it came as any great surprise. Um, and she just wanted to make sure that I was clean and tidy, you know? [00:50:00] So have I talked about it since with her? Not significantly. Um, but it rapidly became See, Not long after that, I hitched up with with David the partner I had for 30 odd years. Uh, and he and I were just absorbed into the family and treated really as far as I can tell. Apart from weddings and wedding presents, we were treated [00:50:30] the same way that my married brothers and sisters were by both sides of the family, his, his family and and mine. Um, there was no pretence. Mum and Dad came to stay with us often. We went down there and stayed with them. That was all very matter of fact, which I thought was pretty good, because I mean I through other associations, I've known of people who who young men whose photos whose faces were cut out of family photos [00:51:00] because the family would not. Well, I mean, they were They were simply totally excluded. Written out of the record. That's just not my experience. I need to I need to make the general point. Um, you know, this notion that dogs bite people who expect to be bitten? Um, I sort of feel it applies to to my life in a way that the the young men I've dealt with who were terribly traumatised [00:51:30] and were having trouble with the bosses and workmates and so forth somehow I don't mean deserve it. But I assumed that I would be treated with respect for myself, that I was not going to be discriminated against even though it was still illegal. And that was my expectation. And I have to say that with very few exceptions and there were one or two with very few exceptions, family was OK. Friends were OK. [00:52:00] Employers were OK. Workmates were OK. And if I had any problem having books on your shelf about homosexuality, I mean, that must have been a a pointer for your mother. How did that come about? Well, you know by then you see, I'm a theological student by then So I was, You know, there were pastoral books. There were liturgical books, pastoral books, books about pastoral issues. Broadly, [00:52:30] um, I mean, there weren't raunchy gay novels. So it was things like DJ West's homosexuality and and things like that, and by then, a book which, um, which was really a how to do it manual. It was a book called Minority, Published by Gordon Westwood. That was a pseudonym for someone else. Um, and I shoplifted that from a bookshop in Dunedin. I was too ashamed to take up the counter and buy it. [00:53:00] This is confession time, Um, and and obviously, it was a sociological study full of heavy data, um, of research that was done in in England, Britain, England can't remember which, um, and but it had lots of anecdotal stuff. So it had people of about my age and inclination describing how they met someone in an underground toilet or whatever, and it was basically and this is what you do. These are the signs to look out for. These [00:53:30] are the risks you're taking. Do it yourself manual anyway. So So there was stuff like that, but it was, um I mean, it was in the context. I mean, it's not why I had them, but it was in the context of a wider range of of things to do with, you know, pastoral care and and other aspects of theological training. So when you told your mother and she said, Oh, you know, make [00:54:00] sure you pack your pyjamas. Uh, how did you feel? Had you had you booked this up in your mind? As this is, this is going to be a pivotal moment. Or I had Really, um, yes, I mean, I was I knew I had to do it. And I was dreading doing it, um, more out of embarrassment than any sense that I was going to be disowned. To be honest, I mean, our family, we we, uh, in terms of of, of family, [00:54:30] I had no sex education whatsoever. And I have to say that, uh, other men of my age had the same experience. Um, yeah. So sex wasn't such things sexual were just not talked about, Um, not we just We were all bright enough to know that this was an area that, you know, it wasn't a proper for dinner table conversation. Really? um, I talked to my younger [00:55:00] sister by then. Not to my older sister or brother. Not neither of them lived at home by then. Talk to my younger sister. Not an issue. I talked to an employer, not an issue. I talk to college friends, other theological students. Not an issue, But Mum, just terribly matter of fact, but not really keen to talk about it. Mm. And she told your father [00:55:30] and they had I now know, I suppose I suspected at the time they had an interview with Basil James, Uh, because there's a reference that in his in his notes but no details of what they discussed. And that was prior to the first session. No, it would have been after the first session, I think. Or during it. Even, I think. Probably, uh, during it. Do you know what your father's reaction was? Uh, the only time I've had any conversation with Dad about [00:56:00] it at all. Um, he really talked about the law. Uh, not necessarily that it was right or wrong, but about the importance of law as a regulating device in society, Uh, that laws were there for good reason. That whether or not. We agreed with them. We were bound as citizens to bye bye. Um, and that figured with the sort of approach [00:56:30] you took to life generally, Um, you know, and I think in that conversation we even talked about the, you know, the origins of Roman law and that sort of thing. But it was It was that was That was the That was the aspect you took. Hm. That's interesting. And that's really the only explicit conversation. Can you recall prior to the treatment after talking to Doctor Doctor James between talking to him and then going in for the first session. How you felt? [00:57:00] What? What? What was going through Your head? Um, apprehensive about it, but pretty distracted by the holiday job I had by then and waiting for university results. And that and that sort of thing. I don't remember being terribly keyed up about it. Other than the issue of needing to tell Mum. Did Dr James give you any warnings beforehand as to, you know, could could things possibly go wrong? No. [00:57:30] No. I don't remember any discussion of the actual trap. All of the risks involved that may be reprehensible on his part because I now know that I think the case was South Africa. But the one in Britain as well of people who have actually died of the OM morphine, I mean, came in under treatment have died of the of the of a reaction to the drug. But no, I didn't believe there was any [00:58:00] any physical risk in that scene. And did you have to sign some kind of waiver that would Look, I don't remember that. I mean, that seems extraordinary, because now, of course, you know, as a privacy officer, I have to get people to sign waivers for everything, But no, I don't I don't remember that either. I don't know whether I mentioned it. Well, there was a second session which you're aware of, which you might want to explore, but also that I had a a final outpatients, uh, session with electric shock. Not convulsive [00:58:30] shock, but just electricity instead of instead of nausea inducing drugs, we'll come to that. So, prior to the first session, you were asked to to come up with some images and some stories. What? What? Can you give me some examples of what? What you kind of came up with, um I can't remember what you see made of [00:59:00] the images, because I don't remember them being part of it. But, you know, it seems extraordinary, really. But in those days, there really wasn't a lot of gay pornography around. But there were, um, athletic magazines, and there was one in particular called man's world, which I now know was produced solely for the gay market. And in those days, [00:59:30] they were kept with the sports and the health magazines. And they were small booklets, uh, of black and white photos of men of all ages, but mostly bodybuilder types in in quite provocative poses. Um, so I had a few of those. I gave him one of those, and in terms of anecdotes, I talk about the sort of men that attracted [01:00:00] me or the sort of things out on the beat that excited me, which were not quite the same thing, because there was there was an element of, uh, of excitement in the hunt, you know, regardless of what the prey was sort of thing, you know, it was a wee just a wee frizz on of of excitement from, you know of of the danger. And I did think police danger. I didn't think nowadays, of course, I think the danger [01:00:30] of being bashed up getting it wrong and being but, uh, you know, you would one was so circumspect that, uh, there was very little danger of getting it wrong. What was his reaction to that material? Not quite neutral. No, he was very professional at that. He was a cool, cool customer. And, uh, yeah, I won't jump ahead to the second session because there's a sort of parallel there. So can you tell me what it was like [01:01:00] being admitted to a public hospital Psychiatric ward? Uh, not mice, basically, Uh, and one of the, uh, one of the consequent reactions. Short lived, but nevertheless, both within family, they're more extended members of family and certainly among some families in the district. Uh, not that they didn't know why I'd been in there, but they knew [01:01:30] that I'd been in Cohoon so that people I had babysat for no longer wanted me as a babysitter. That's that's the sort of thing. And and even even family members just that sense of you know what's wrong with him? He's been in Cohoon. What's that all about? Uh, [01:02:00] I wonder is, is he OK? Thoughtful for me, is he? You know, is he safe? Is he going to take an axe and attack us? Or when I'm inventing all that, But but just a A reserve a a reserve? Uh, not because I was gay or because they knew that, but simply that I had been in. How did the medical staff treat you? The the only the only [01:02:30] doctor I saw was Basil James. But the orderlies who who administered the drug, uh, again, they they were neutral, But, uh, I was embarrassed because one, and and one of my notes from way back then suggests that there were two. But I certainly remember one of the orderlies was someone I'd been at school with. He was in med school. Now, you know, because here we are. We're in at the end of my second year at Varsity. Uh, he was in med school, and he was, [01:03:00] you know, doing work as as an orderly. And, um, I didn't care for that. There were no consequences that I I never heard that he had mentioned anywhere that he'd met me or why I was there or anything like that. But I didn't like it. And for them, this would have been the first time they had tried this treatment. I hope it was the only time. But I can't guarantee that I actually ought to put a official information request about that. I might [01:03:30] one day, but no, no, quite Yes, it would be. So can you take me through, um, after being admitted, you Where were you shown? Where did you go? Where were you taken? Pretty much straight to. To the room that I've described. Um, yeah. How big was that room? Yeah, pretty small enough room for a bed. Yeah, I suppose it was a bedside cabinet. I recall it as you know, um, a standard [01:04:00] old fashioned hospital window with a bit of wall on each side. Are we saying 2.5 metres by four or something like that. And it was blacked out. Yeah. No, no. Blacked out. No decoration. I'm inclined to say unshaded light bulb, but I can't actually remember that. But that was the general. That was the general impression. It was a cell. [01:04:30] And were you able to leave that room. I didn't. Did you know that going into that room that you wouldn't be able to leave for so many days? I think I knew that I was submitting myself to whatever came. Um, So you were there in the room? What? What happens next? They come in and say we're ready for the first treatment. They give me the shot of whiskey, the tumble of whiskey. They I roll over. They inject morphine into my backside, [01:05:00] they turn the tape recorder on. Did they say what the injection would do? I knew it was going to induce nausea. I didn't know what or how or how bad the nausea would be. But I I knew it. What is? Basil James had explained what? What? The modification involved. Yeah, Yeah, it's just that, you know, thinking about it In theory, like, you know, the [01:05:30] threat gets an electric shock every time it goes to the wrong feeder. Um, you know, it's all a bit sort of clinical, but scientific. That was what attracted me to it. Or that's what because I've never heard of it before. And this was something you could sort of see. The logic of it. God help me, but you can see the logic of it. Uh, you know? And so then, yes. And And as I say after the first one you've thrown up in the bowl, they took the bowl away. But you know, you you had no change [01:06:00] of pyjamas or sheets or anything like that. You were just just there in this room for as long as it took the tape. Was that Basil? That was Basil's voice. And Basil was describing you all fantasies. No. How was that to listen to? Well, slightly embarrassing in front of an orderly. But I mean, II. I was playing fair with the whole thing. [01:06:30] I mean, I'd given the anecdotes to Basil, so I couldn't really complain about Basil reading them back to me. So the did the orderly stay in the room with you? Yeah. I, uh I don't know whether that was part of the deal or whether, particularly after that first one, when my blood pressure had dropped, where they felt that there needed to be someone there, and they they take away the the the base on them. So do you think it it worked? I mean, was was the intention that [01:07:00] you would get aroused. And then that's part of what's so completely and utterly pathetic about it. As I've said once or twice since, to you had to be. Theoretically, you had to be thoroughly aroused to be completely turned off. You don't get aroused in those circumstances. I mean, I could honestly say, although I listened to took in the anecdotes that [01:07:30] I had relayed and were now being relayed to me um, I, I mean, it was just a non sexual situation. One thinks a good sex one doesn't think of a middle aged orderly in a in a foul smelling room with no light and your bum full of apomorphine. It was just but looking backwards was just pathetic. Barbaric, pathetic, illogical. So what? What would [01:08:00] the time difference be between actually the start of the tape happening and you throwing up? How long would that take? 23 minutes at most. Yeah, So the drug acted quite fast and the tape wasn't terribly long, and it went quite quickly from, you know, isn't this exciting to you are feeling sick. And then, of course, it was no surprise she was feeling sick she had done full of nausea inducing drug. Was [01:08:30] there any wording on the tape to, um, make you feel bad? Like, homosexuality is bad. Or or what kind of words would it be? Yeah, that would be That would be the approach. Yeah, this is This is this is disgusting behaviour. You are feeling sick. You are sickened by this disgusting behaviour. I. I mean, I can't, but that [01:09:00] that was that was the That was the thing. Yeah, you are. Yes. That's the fairest way of summarising it. You are sickened by this disgusting behaviour. You are feeling sick. You are really, really sick. This behaviour makes you sick on and on. And so you would throw up after a couple of minutes And then what would happen? Uh, they'd go away and you waited for an hour, and then you got a tumble of glucose and lime. And then an hour [01:09:30] after that, they had another session. Was there anything in the room that, like I mean, with the books that you could read? No, absolutely no external stimulation. Uh, you're in your head. And what was going on in your head? Uh, a a pretty strong reaction to begin with. And as I say after After what I I now gather was a few days [01:10:00] I. I thought, This is This is just bloody ridiculous. Uh, enough is enough. Um, I'm not gonna have another one of these. I'm a voluntary patient. I'm not going to have another one of these. I insist on seeing Basil James. How many treatments a day would you get? Well, I think it was every two hours. So, So 12 in a day. It might have been slightly less than that, but I don't think it was. That's why I can't really believe I was there nine days. I suppose the nine days [01:10:30] would include the post therapy day or two of recovery. I don't know. I'm surprised at that. So it went all day and all night. Yeah. So could tell. No watch, no light? No, no. No sense of whether it was day or night outside. Was it the same orderlies, or were there different orderlies? They must have been on shifts. There were some some who were there more than once, but, uh, different orderlies, [01:11:00] but all male and mostly older men Did they converse with you? at all? No, Just very, um, professional was reserved. Neutral? Yeah. They must have been pretty heavily briefed. Uh, I mean, obviously, I was supposed to be in isolation, and I was not supposed to be sympathise [01:11:30] with or supported. Basically, was there anything in the room that allowed people outside the room to observe your behaviour? No. No. Open and closed door door shut. And no, if there was a window to the corridor and there may have been but it was, well, curtained out. Well, blacked out. I wasn't aware of people coming and going outside at all. And was anybody actually checking up on you [01:12:00] and saying, You know, how are you feeling? What are your thoughts? Not to answer to Basil Jane. Do you think that was part of it where they would basically do it? Until you actually throw up your hands and said I'm not doing anything. I think that's I haven't I haven't read other people's experiences, whereas they haven't until very recently, and they're only in a comic context. But I I happened [01:12:30] upon quite recently. Um uh, a wee novel by Tom Sharp, South African writer, uh, called indecent exposure and in the in the South African police. They became aware that a lot of the white policemen were in fact fraternising with black women. And for the authorities, this was an absolute night. It was also a crime. So they decided that they were going to deal with this [01:13:00] and they decided to deal with it by a vision therapy. And so they wholesale this treatment. So the novel says and and it's born out to some extent because some of the some of the more recent research stuff is from South Africa over that time that that that that first session of of aversion therapy did you were you able to, um, have a shower or no? And [01:13:30] you were saying that you had to toilet within the room itself? Must have because I didn't leave the room, I oddly enough, I certainly know I had no shower and that I was becoming increasingly smelly and sticky. Um, but, um, I must have been under a under a fair bit of mounting pressure, to be honest, because we've talked a little bit about religion and may come back to it, But, uh, somewhere along that line, well into it and possibly critical to my [01:14:00] calling for Basil James. I had a sense of, quite explicitly Jesus Christ being present with me. Nothing more than presence and comfort from that presence. You know, I don't actually believe in that sort of event, you see, So I'm sort of telling it at my own, uh, my own expense, but that was quite strong. Now, I mean, I'm inclined to think, you know, if you haven't been with [01:14:30] food or proper nourishment for several days, it's no wonder you start hallucinating. I mean, it's pretty pretty normal, but it was interesting that it took that form. Uh, in my time, you were asking what was going on in my head. Well, I must have been getting increasingly stressed and affected by the whole process. And then I had that experience, and I think I think that sense [01:15:00] I think that sense that, you know, I was being supported by other was part of my determination to call to say enough is enough. I don't remember Jesus Christ saying, It's all all right, Ralph, I love you, but I think that's what I felt which was consistent with what I've said before. I've never. Actually, I've never actually felt designed by God, you know? So So [01:15:30] what was the point of the whiskey? Um I. I don't know. I think you had to have something to throw up on. And if you weren't being fed, you had to have something in your system. Whether it was a carryover from his, uh, from his from other use of the treatment for alcoholics, I just don't know. But, I mean, I can joke about it now, but, I mean, [01:16:00] I wouldn't touch a glass of whiskey to this day. And in the first few years after this, there used to be a coloured magazine that often had a Johnny Walker advert on the back cover full colour advert on the back cover and a tumbler of whiskey. And it would make me feel queasy. So I didn't do anything to my sexuality, but it sure put me off whiskey, huh? [01:16:30] But so I don't know what that was about, but I think that II I can only think that it was a carryover from, you know, that with an alcoholic, they were actually giving him something that he was supposed to be made sick by uh, and they certainly had to give me some things. So that's what it was. The tape message. Did that change over the time? It was the same same. Yeah. I, uh I don't think it was even modified. I don't think there was even two versions of it. I think it was just [01:17:00] which again is a bit pathetic, isn't it? You know, I mean, you've been made sick by one anecdote. And what kind of tone of voice did he use on the tape are quite neutral. Uh, although, Oh, no, you're quite neutral in describing the whatever the anecdote was. Uh, but then you know you then a bit more dramatic. You know, you are feeling sick. You are feeling very sick. You are going to be sick. It would be fair. [01:17:30] I imagine it must have been quite intense for the orderlies as well. I mean, if they were in the room with you. Yeah, I quite like. And so they they knew why I was there because they were listening to these tapes, including my old school mates. But anyway Oh, well, I quite fancy one of the one of the group of school mates But anyway, that's beside the point. So you finally got kind of fed up with the treatment and you called for for Doctor James. [01:18:00] How quickly did he arrive? Uh, before the next session, what was What was the the discussion about just saying that, you know, that I wasn't prepared to put up with this, uh, that I that I thought it was a dreadful treatment, Uh, that it was a dreadful process, not blaming him, But it was a dreadful process and that, uh uh, and that, uh, I wasn't [01:18:30] prepared to continue with it. And then he began this. You know? What about what will your parents think? You know, don't you fairly have an obligation to them and to the church authorities to to continue with this treatment? Don't you realise that? You know it will make your life better, and you know that it's that's behaviour that needs needs to change and so on. All right. What was going through your head? [01:19:00] Um, well, really respect from mum and Dad more than more than, uh, he may have told me at that point that he had spoken to them. Um, I was more more focused on them than I was on on the church authorities. I may by then have begun to realise that in fact, I wasn't going to make it into the Anglican priesthood. Although I continued a bit after [01:19:30] that. Um, really? Just, you know, I made a commitment to seeing this through, and now he laid the guilts on me with over mom and Dad in particular. Uh, and that really? Oh, well, you know, I owed it to them, if not to myself, at that stage. Had you any kind of concept of time? How many days you'd been there? No, [01:20:00] I knew. I mean, I didn't call him until I. I mean, I was fed up. Uh, so I knew that there had been a lot of sessions, and so you agreed to continue. I did. And he left. Well, he must. I think he signalled there and then that that you know that that was it. And then, you know, within a very short space of time, I was whisked [01:20:30] out to the to the showers and given a meal, and the curtains were hung and the flowers were put on the bedside table. And mom and Dad and my friends were able to visit, but, uh, and I can't remember how long after that I don't think I was in much longer than that on that session. And just to clarify that during [01:21:00] the time of the treatment, did you actually have any food? Not that I recall. No, just the glucose and Lyme. I mean, I was being given, um that was for very basic sustenance. And the whiskey goes, but I lost the whiskey. So did many people come and visit you? No, I don't really remember. Uh, see, by then it was already university holidays, and most of my friends by then were university friends, and they [01:21:30] had all left town. That was a bit of a problem, which we might come on to. Um And what about your parents? Did they and how were they? OK, you know, we talked about the weather and what the cat was doing and what the latest news from my older sister was. And family life continued. There was certainly no discussion of of what had been happening or why [01:22:00] it was happening. But that was typical of my family. Really. Not that they're particularly prudish or uptight, but we just did not talk about sex. So was there some kind of debriefing after the treatment? Not that I recall. So literally. You just went home, Went home. Does that strike you as old again? [01:22:30] You see, we we We're right in the period when New Zealand closes down. Uh, I think to be fair, there was probably a an appointment made for early in the new year for me to see Basil James again then. But I don't recall any debriefing. Oh, perhaps I should say that that the whole experience was a wee bit numbing. Yeah, [01:23:00] and I think I have closed down. I have excluded from my memory some aspects of it. And I also think that in some ways, it it had a bit of an effect on my recall to that date. Yeah, I just feel well, I'm vague about some aspects of my earlier life and say Max is about his. Really? Um [01:23:30] it may just be difference in the way one's mind operates, but I do feel that this this is a wee bit of a blur at that point. So did battle. James. Tell you what you may expect after the treatment? No, not that I recall. Mhm. And what happened after the treatment? I mean, how how did you know it was successful [01:24:00] or not? But I knew it wasn't successful. I mean, I wasn't in terms of in terms of my sexual responses, I certainly there was no change, uh, that I was aware of. And, um, sometime early in the new year, perhaps the first week of the new year. You know, here I am in Dunedin. I think Mum and Dad have gone away for a brief holiday, and, uh, all my friends are gone. [01:24:30] Um, I was bored. I was lonely, and I was fed up, and so I went cruising, and I didn't. Normally, I didn't normally take much interest in the wolves, but I can't remember. But anyway, I I met a really, really lovely guy who was a steward on a coastal trader. And I spent the night with him. He said, you know, no one in town, mum and Dad, not there. I didn't normally spend the night with people, spent the night with him [01:25:00] on on the trip, and it was just lovely. Um, I've joked about it in in the past, but, you know, the whole thing was sort of sort of gold and aura to it. Now, in fact, you know, that was really just the light from a wee bedside radio, but, you know, the whole the whole thing. He was a nice guy. He was sexually attractive to me. Um, we hit it off. Um, and I just thought I'm back to normal. [01:25:30] This is This is me. This is the way I am and it's OK. However, that's not the end of the story. How much time had elapsed from that night to to actually with when the first treatment ended? Uh, I'd say most of I'd say most of December, a month or six weeks, perhaps. And in that time, had you had any kind of sexual thoughts or, I mean, not sexual. Yeah, and there was a masturbation. [01:26:00] I mean, it hadn't made any difference whatsoever. So what were your thoughts on the treatment then? Waste of time. But I made a commitment to trying it sound odd, but that really was the driver. I hadn't felt driven to the treatment in the first place. But having made the commitment to it. I mean, noses [01:26:30] are stickers, and, um, you know, And have you had any communication with the priest who who had advised you to I I must have over that Christmas period and he wrote, I mean, I, uh, there would have been a general, you know, I hope you're OK. And yes, thank you, father, but nothing more than that. And it was slightly and it was slightly complicated. The the theological student with whom I'd been, you know, sort of almost [01:27:00] up to or close to when I went for treatment for the therapy. Um, I mean, we we communicated, but we stayed well away from the recent past. Or at that point, we stayed well away from the recent past or what I'd just been through. Did he undertake any kind of treatment? Had no need to really I. I was, uh [01:27:30] I pushed him into a relationship that he was quite happy with for the few months that it lasted. But, I mean, I think I don't really think that was him. So what was your next meeting with with James? Uh, well, it would have been I I'd suggest in in sort of mid January or something like that. And, uh, this is 1965 1965 [01:28:00] possibly late January. And I told him what had happened in the meantime, both that I didn't detect any change in my sexual interests and that I had had a sexual experience. Um, he, um he was always cool and neutral, but he was It was pretty clear to me that he didn't think this was at all a good thing. And he said that he really thought [01:28:30] it was important for us to seize the moment, uh, to build on the first treatment. Uh, and I committed myself to seeing it through, uh, so I agreed to return and not prompted by me, but certainly part of his pattern. Um, the the second session was first session had been very much reorientation. [01:29:00] Suppress homosexual reaction, de orientation, suppress homosexual reaction. The second session had a bit more focus on reorientation. Suppress the undesirable, encourage the desirable. You know what? It what illustrated that he produced some girlie magazines. The parallel really of gay ones. [01:29:30] The homosexual ones I'd given him. I mean again, pre playboy. So black and white and a bit granny. But nevertheless quite explicit porn. And he had a tape which was encouraging heterosexual encouraging an interest in women. Uh, and so this is after the second session. I've got these girlie magazines, an encouraging tape and a hormone shot, [01:30:00] and I don't know what it was or what it was intended to do, but I think it was sort of intended to stimulate sexual interest, which they trusted me to focus on the girlie magazine and the encouraging tape. So that was a bit more of an effort. So instead of just leave and attempting to leave me neutral, they really did put more effort into, uh, refocusing. And [01:30:30] that second treatment was that in the same room, far as I recall, Certainly the same ward. And they were doing the same routine of a blacked out room. No other stimulus, something. It was all but I've been here before, But still, were they making you feel better by were were they giving you food? Were they so it was exactly the same routine. Every as far as I recall. It was a complete repeat, [01:31:00] except for after after the decision and and I don't actually remember what brought that lot to a close. Um, yeah. I think Basil simply indicated that, you know, he had scheduled a number of of sessions and that we had now completed those and that we would now look at encouraging. And the only the only treatment after that was an outpatient session with electrodes on my hand. [01:31:30] Um, which was the same same sort of thing, except that it was you know, you didn't It wasn't particularly disgusting. Um, attached electrodes to your hand. I had to. I had to encourage I had to think of, uh, a a homosexual stimulating experience. And then signal and Basil Jane would close the circuit and I'd get a job. And [01:32:00] I have to say that after that's happened several times, you know, perhaps half a dozen times. Image, hand up, jolt, image, hand up, jolt, image, hand up. No jolt. But the image disappears from your mind in anticipation of having another shock. Yes, I wasn't prepared to say at the time, but I thought that it might have had more effect than the nausea. Uh, [01:32:30] but of course. I mean, the whole thing is just so pathetic, because how does he? How does he know. I mean, I here I am, sitting in an outpatients room with a with a doctor. I mean, what sort of stimulating thoughts am I going to? But, I mean, I could have been thinking of seagulls. I might have been being put off seagulls for all he knew. I mean, it's silly, isn't it? You see the logic of the theory, but but all the loopholes in the way it was applied. And, [01:33:00] you know, human beings are just more complex than that. You can stop a rat eating from the wrong feeder. But human beings, especially in their sexual element, are far more complex than that. Just ridiculous. That second session, How long did that aversion therapy go for? I don't know. I can't recall several days. And the notes are The notes are unclear. II. I really wanted to get that all sorted out of my mind. [01:33:30] But the the hospital notes are unclear. And do you know how it ended? Was Was it again one of those things where you put up your hand? No, it wasn't. No, I think I think there was, I think because they had something in their minds to follow it up with that. They had determined he had determined a a set number of sessions. That's that's my recall of it. Was there anything different from the second session of therapy [01:34:00] to the first session? No, Only the follow up, No follow up after the first this heterosexual encouragement following the second Was there any talk before you were discharged about You know how you might be feeling. And I just, you know, take this material with you and we do encourage you to, you know, to do everything you can to resist temptation and and and develop this this new interest. Not that I'd ever confessed to a new interest, but [01:34:30] anyway and so how did that kind of pan out? No, no, No different from the previous time. And you see, not long after that. So we're now talking the beginning of 1965 1963 and 64. I was living at home 1965 1966. I was at college as a boarder where the theological student was also a resident and we were OK. We were back here and we knew [01:35:00] that there was no go area and one every night we gather around about nine o'clock for supper in one room or another, and one night another guy with whom I was quite friendly said, Oh, you know, it's just because it was right at the beginning of term beginning of March, um said, Um oh, I've had a really troubling holiday period. A really close friend from Timaru has told me that he's homosexual and I just [01:35:30] don't know what to make it or what to do about it. So Ken and I looked at each other and I sort of said, OK, he said, OK, and I said, Well, John, I am homosexual, too. Um, do you think? And the conversation developed and it was, Did I? Did he think there was anything I could do to help his friend? So it was arranged that I would meet this friend, Uh, and I did. Yeah, we lived for the next [01:36:00] together for the next 30 years. Well, not not quite. I mean, we caught it, Uh, and then when his mother died, we moved into a flat together and lived from 1968 till he died in 1995. So, um, now, David, this guy who became my partner. He had also been in Basil James's care. Uh, because he really was troubled by his homosexuality. And [01:36:30] Basil James certainly hadn't suggested any sort of reorientation or anything to him. Um, but Basil James had indicated to David that to continue a homosexual life would almost certainly mean suicide, social or actual suicide. But, you know, after meeting David, did you have any correspondence with Basil James about? [01:37:00] I did and And how did that turn out? I. I wrote to him basically, Oh, he'd written to me to say that there was a 50 year medical student who was doing research in the area of homosexuality, not aversion therapy, but homosexuality. And would I be prepared to talk to him? Uh, and I did, uh, and I I'd completely forgotten his name. But there's a reference to there's a reference to him in Basil James' correspondence, which [01:37:30] I've since got from the hospital board, and I've come across a reference to his research in another book, Uh, where it refers to to me, not by name, but, uh, but it it it's absolutely me. And and I checked that this indeed was the student I spoke to. So that was that I wrote what was probably a a pompous 21 year old's letter to Basil James. Sort of asking him why he thought it had failed. And, uh, why? I thought it had failed. [01:38:00] And and there were two or three things I I tackled him on. And what did I, uh, And what did you suggest I could do to make life better for gay people? And he responded to that. He said that he thought I wasn't, you know, really terribly strong and motivated to the treatment, which I'd have to agree. And he basically said that he thought there was a note of grandiosity in my last suggestion. Uh, and that really, uh, you know, [01:38:30] the situation might get better. Um, but that he didn't advise me to be involved in any anything and, uh, that really, uh, I would need to proceed with the utmost discretion. Sorry. Did that happen pre the outpatient experience a year or so later? OK, so can we go back to the outpatient experience? So what was the time difference between the end of the second session of aversion therapy [01:39:00] and you as an outpatient week or two and did. Did Basil just want you to come in as an outpatient to see how it all went? Yep. And that was never repeated. So I don't know whether he just I presume you decided that was a lost cause. So I mean, can we Can you go through that that outpatient experience, the the idea of going back and and seeing how it was going, was that something before you checked out at the second session? Did [01:39:30] he say Come back in a week's time? And I think there was always that understanding that there would be a uh, not not not an emergency type session, but simply that you know, that he that we hadn't We were committed to checking and checking out how things were going. And at that point, I don't think I had any, you know, further escapades to report to him. I don't recall that. It was just that, you know, here's a top up. Um, you know, different, different medium, Uh, and just to [01:40:00] sort of reinforce them. And can you describe for me how that, um, electric shock treatment worked? Like what? What kind of room? You were just his office. Was this a public hospital or, uh, I have It must have been if he had that gear with me, he wouldn't have had that at student health. Yes, he must have had an office within the hospital around. And what kind of gear? What was it? Well, it was just a small generator and a couple of load loads and loads [01:40:30] and a the button to push Nothing terribly elaborate. Did the generator make a noise? No. Think it was probably connected to to low power battery or something of that sort. And the shock was only about Did you ever do science experience experience with those? You know, one of the things in high school science back in those days was to generate electricity and hold hands, and the shot ran down. [01:41:00] The whole lot of you all that sort of thing. It was It was about that level. It was a jolt. Um, but you know, no sense a jolt and unpleasant, but not, you know, not significant, really. And with a jolt, you know, it's it's gone over. But of course, that's what happened with the image in your mind, too. Go on if you're If you're dreaming about having sex with someone and you get a shock on the hand, you don't go on dreaming. So do you think [01:41:30] the idea was always to have those two different types of therapy? The the electric shock had never been discussed in terms in the initial conversations, and he was always quite saying, This is what I'm gonna do And this is how we are. This is how we do it. And this is what your part of the process is like, you know, they mentioned and so forth, all quite neutrally explained. Can you describe [01:42:00] some of the images and how they were? Were they projected, or were they? That's what was so silly, as I say, I could have been thinking of seagulls. So what would he say? What would he say to you? Think of erotic, yes, think of enough and and signal me when you've when you've conjured up something of interest to you. So presumably at that point, he accepted that the second session, [01:42:30] even though it ended up with focus on he heterosexual behaviour hadn't really had much effect, and we didn't go into a lot of that. But, uh, I mean, here he was continuing to that will reinforce the de orientation and does have admitted, you know, perhaps if it had gone on, it might have had some more profound effect than the nausea sessions had. Did he give you any instruction [01:43:00] in terms of the images you should have in your head? No. Just they needed to be homosexual and attractive. And did you find it easy or hard to conjure up the images? Well, look, honestly, I mean not had not had to conjure up the image, but no sense of Of arousal, really? I mean, for God's sake, I'm in. I'm in a doctor's office. I mean, I played fair I I think of, you know, some director of man, [01:43:30] or it usually just usually just an image like that. Really not. Not necessarily doing anything but I. I played fair. I would I would I would think of a country up, an image of someone I felt attracted to and signal and Boom. And when B happened, when? When? When he shocked you. Can you describe that? Yeah, just like that. You know, he'd close the circuit. The shock [01:44:00] would come and the image would go bang, bang, and then you and then, you know, there'd be a rest of a minute or something, uh, during which I was expected to, you know, start the process again and up. And then I eventually signal and close. And as I say after, I don't know, half a dozen of those. He didn't close the circuit, but an expectation they have in my mind, the image disappeared. Was the shock enough [01:44:30] to make you kind of verbalise or I mean, was it a big shock? No, it was it was strong enough to be unpleasant, but, you know, not even no, I wouldn't Even I wouldn't even yell out or anything. I mean, not if, you know, shut just and the electrodes, they were placed on your hand. I remember. I'm sure there were two. [01:45:00] Don't know why they'd be, too, but, you know, just take the tape to your hand. And why did he stop? Why was there? You know, he said I'm going to do this 10 times, and then, you know, by then it was, uh we were very much in his office hours, and I think you know, I was there for the a lot of 40 minutes or whatever, do 50 minutes and then 10 minutes off or whatever. And that was it. And I never went back, but I wasn't. [01:45:30] He wrote to me about the medical student, and I wrote to him about you know, what I should do in life. So after that third treatment, what were your thoughts on on the two types of treatment I my notes made at the time? I've said to myself, perhaps electric shock would have been more effective in the long [01:46:00] run than the nausea treatment. But I mean, I mean, all I can say is, thank God I didn't follow that up, because I mean, all it was, all it was going to do was leave me, frankly, sexually neutral or to the point where I was so screwed up that I couldn't function sexually without fear and punishment and that, you know, that had never been part of my approach [01:46:30] to exercising my sexuality. I didn't think God was going to punish me. And although I thought the law might, I didn't you know, uh, I'm so glad that that it didn't work out because really, to be to be left, sort of sexually neutral would be pretty grim, I think so. What do you think the lasting effects of aversion therapy have been on you. [01:47:00] Um, I've already said that I wonder whether that whole that whole period has been part of, um, blurring some memories. Don't know really, whether that's so, um the the suspicion of someone who'd been in cohoon lasted for a while, uh, but was never a major issue. And I soon left Dunedin. Anyway, um, [01:47:30] I still won't have a glass of whiskey, and but the lasting effect is I gave it a go. That's what society and the church asked of me. I tried. It hasn't worked. It was never likely to work. I am quite sure that my sexual orientation is inbuilt. Whether it was pre birth or in early relationships. I haven't chosen this. Uh, it's me. [01:48:00] It's the way I am. Get on with it. And I felt that I was I was cleared to get on with it by having given it a go, and I suppose, in one or two situations since not in personal ones, but perhaps during law reform, the fact that I was able to say now looked society. This is what you asked me [01:48:30] to to do to change. I gave it my best shot. It didn't work. I am sure that it wouldn't work for me or for anyone else. Now can we move on to another subject? Yeah. So quite profound. In A in a way, I mean, other people got on and found partners and lived with them without that. But, uh, but Given, given the church background, the family background, [01:49:00] the the feeling that they'd expected this of me, I'd risen to the occasion. It hadn't worked. And now, time to live life as a gay man and do it as decently as you could. It's interesting because as we've been talking, you have been referring back to notes that you've obtained from the hospital and research that you've downloaded from the Internet. So you've obviously still [01:49:30] kept an active interest in or or or trying to discover more about what happened back then. Yeah, Yes, that's yes. That's certainly so. That's partly because, to the best of my knowledge, and I joked about an official information request, but, uh, to to my knowledge, uh, I haven't heard of anyone else in New Zealand. Um, having undergone that particular therapy, uh, I know lots of gay people who have been in therapies of one sort or another, [01:50:00] but I haven't heard of anyone else on that. And it's only that I've tuned into it use overseas, that is, has really encouraged me to sort of keep up a sort of academic interest still being used for alcoholism and gambling. I don't know what else paedophilia. I think they might be, uh, the only other possibility that we talked about, you know, group therapy and psychotherapy and so forth. And I mean, some advocates also talk about chemical castration. Do you think your [01:50:30] research over the over the years has changed your view on what you went through? No. Only, uh, a certain resentment of Basil Jones because he had written he'd written the piece in the medical journal from 1962 is really a brag about what a wonderful thing this is. And, of course, most of the research I've read since [01:51:00] is all What a waste of time. I think I think I've read somewhere that the failure rate I don't have many cases but the failure rate was something like 99%. I forgot which is exactly what I would expect. And I'm even, you know, surprised that there was a single person who, um, who was perhaps different motivation and different heterosexual experience might actually have been able to shift enough. Um, [01:51:30] yeah. So I. I resent Basil James a bit. Really? But when people say well, you know, was it voluntary? Well, yes, it was. I said it was explained to me fairly and squarely, and I said, I'll give it a go. So what ever happened to Basil James? I think last time I tuned in, he was some very senior health authority in [01:52:00] Queensland. I think he went on to I think he went on to be, um, director of mental health in New Zealand. And then last time I saw so he'd be getting on now because he was significantly older than me. So he'd he'd he'd be in his eighties Now, I think. And what are your thoughts now on the church asking you to undertake something like this? [01:52:30] I Well, it was reasonable II. I mean, I don't think the church asked me to do the aversion therapy. The church asked me to address the problem. Can I make that distinction the particular way in which I ended up addressing? It was I mean, I don't think the bishop, for example, would have the slightest idea that it even had a vision therapy. The parish priest certainly did. I mean, he knew all about it, and and And he was a supporting with. But, I mean, all he was asking in the beginning was for [01:53:00] me to talk to the student health psychiatrist about the issue. Um, and I happened to strike Basil James, who had a bee in his bonnet about aversion therapy. Do you have any final reflections on on on the therapy? And and you're you're going through it. I only that, uh, you know, I thought it was mediaeval. I thought it was barbaric. I thought it was scientifically suspect. No. Sorry. [01:53:30] I now think it was all those things scientifically suspect. Uh, inexcusable. Uh, a major breach of of human rights and medical ethics. Uh, and I would certainly never undergo it again. And I would be absolutely appalled and quite vocal if I ever learned that a younger person was being encouraged to undertake the same therapy.

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