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My name's Ralph Knowles. I came back to Christchurch in 1973 Um, in Wellington. I'd been involved in the Homosexual Law Reform Society, and, uh, I continued to be their contact person in Christchurch. Uh, but soon after arriving in Christchurch, I became involved with the new gay Liberation Front, which was an active group of very different sort of people. And [00:00:30] through them, and just through settling into living in Christchurch, I became are pretty aware of the of the gay scene in Christchurch. We were by then using the word gay. Uh, and, uh, um became politically active with them through them in the seventies in Christchurch, the gay scene. What was what was going on? Well, from from my point of view, there was a lot of activity out on the beaches and the beach, Uh, [00:01:00] cruising areas. There was by then a sauna, uh, very similar to the ones you find in other big metropolitan cities. Um, and there was a lot of community work. There was. There were There were some pubs that, uh, were known for short periods to be places where gay people would meet. Um, what tended to happen was we, um we tended to become unwelcome, and we'd move on to somewhere else. That was the [00:01:30] Ramada Inn in particular. Um, there were also, um there's also a community centre, uh, run on a voluntary basis called the Lambda Centre. That was a good place for people to socialise. And particularly for people who were uneasy about coming into the gay scene. It was a a friendly place. Uh uh. To make an entree. Uh, and there were big gay university [00:02:00] student dancers, that sort of thing. In terms of of sexual activity. I guess it was mainly the apart from people who were in, you know, relationships and living together. Uh, there were there was a lot of cruising going on, uh, at a number of of sites, some of which were famous, and some were infamous. Um, and, uh, a gradual feeling that things were becoming less pressured. But that feeling [00:02:30] wasn't necessarily mirrored by the attitude of the authorities, such as the police. And one or two of us got into trouble with the police in one way or another, uh, in through to the late 19 seventies. Can you give me some examples of, uh, some of the beats or some of the locations in Christchurch that were being used. The Christchurch Railway station, now wrecked by the, uh, by the earthquakes, uh was, uh, a very popular spot. [00:03:00] Um, Hagley Park was famous and had been for many, many decades. Uh, beach out north Brighton, uh, was was popular, particularly in summer. And there were other parks around the city, smallish parks, but that had public conveniences in them. And I'm thinking Beverley Park in Richmond, Saint Albans Park in Saint Albans and [00:03:30] so on. But I would say, Oh, in Manchester Street, there was a big, uh, there was a car parking building in Manchester Street. Uh, and there was a, um, public convenience on the ground floor of that. That was very busy. When you say very busy. What? What kind of numbers are we talking? Pretty time. Any time of day or night, you could pop in there and there'd be someone looking for sex, and you might have to You might have to hang around for a while and risk getting arrested, [00:04:00] but you might have to hang around for a while, but but but there'd be someone drifting by I. I met some, uh, a wide range of people there. I never forget 11 guy. I couldn't believe it. Um, because his car was parked immediately outside the the low end, and it had a baby seat, you know, in the in the back area of it. I mean, I know plenty of married people or a married partner now has has been married, but, uh, it just seemed [00:04:30] I sort of thought, Oh, dear, what is happening in that man's life? He's a nice guy, too. And I was gonna say we exchanged fluids for what? A better way of putting it. But, uh, and then we went out quite chatty, and he gets into this car with all the paraphernalia of a family man. I'm not. I'm just expressing surprise. No judgement involved. How would you describe the sexual climate of the time in Christchurch [00:05:00] in the late seventies? Uh, there's still the the of being involved in risky activity. Um, and of course, if you if your sexual encounters are largely in public spaces, even if it's, you know, a bushy park, and it's, you know, 11 o'clock at night, Um, it's what? What you can do. [00:05:30] And what you choose to do is is rather different from what you might do in the comfort of your own home. Though sometimes people risked taking someone they'd picked up at at one of the park's home. Um, and that sort of changed the dynamics a bit At that time in the late seventies, what were the biggest health risks for gay men? I think just sexually transmitted diseases [00:06:00] across the board, Um, none of which were particularly dangerous. I mean unpleasant. Yes. Um, I mean, the obvious ones. Syphilis, um, was was a was a major one. Um, gonorrhoea. Yeah, there was something else I was thinking of, too. Um, I had one. I was consulted by a young man who had managed to get [00:06:30] genital wards, and that was very distressing to him. Distressing to his girlfriend, too. Uh, and, uh, and surprisingly difficult to get rid of. Whereas things like syphilis, I mean in those days were were well under control. So the range of sexually transmitted diseases, although you know, you unpleasant, they weren't life threatening. And the other big danger, it's not quite a health danger. I suppose it is. [00:07:00] But there was also the risk of being, uh, being assaulted of being gay bashed. Did that happen often? Often enough. I don't know. One or two cases per year got into the into the papers. You occasionally heard of others? Um, I had I had at least one friend who was badly assaulted in Hagley Park. Oh, and and another friend who was another friend who took [00:07:30] someone home from the sauna. And that was a big mistake. And he was well bashed up. And I had to take him to A&E the next day to get, uh, more stitches and and treatment of one sort or another. That was pretty bad. He was also the the the perpetrator had also taken wallet and valuables from the house. So, having thumped him up and cleared off with with valuables [00:08:00] in that situation and when homosexuality was still illegal, was there a way of going to the police without kind of incriminating yourself? Yeah, not quite. It would pretend it would depend. What exactly you were YY you were complaining about? I complained about a burglary once, [00:08:30] and the cops came and I hadn't left stuff lying around deliberately, but But they spotted a obviously gay magazine at one stage, and they just sort of shrugged their shoulders and said, Oh, I see you've got other interests. Uh, not unpleasantly, but just, you know, they've noted I don't know whether they didn't develop the possibility that I might have been burgled by someone I had had a liaison with. I hadn't. I'd arrived home from [00:09:00] work to find the place broken into and a whole lot of stuff taken. Yeah, that sort of thing. Um, but I was one of those people who felt that the police were there in spite of my experiences that the police were there to, you know, to protect good, good citizens. And I felt that I was a good citizen and that I was entitled to to their, um, support and investigation. So with the health risks for for for gay men in the seventies in Christchurch, was, [00:09:30] was there any, uh, like, documentation, pamphlets, um, educational material that was given out to people about things like syphilis and gonorrhoea? Not not that I was aware of in terms of being targeted to gay people, Uh, I have in my collection of papers, a number of handout magazine types produced by students associations, Um, which, [00:10:00] all of which have a page or two out of 20 about homosexuality and that do all contain information about sexually transmitted diseases. I think the same could be said of the little red school book. You remember the The Taylor production. You you don't know about the little red school book. It was sort of vaguely connected with Mao's Little Red Book from the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. [00:10:30] Same sort of size and format. But it was radical advice for high school students basically about anything and everything their rights dealing with parents, sex, homosexuality, masturbation, sexually transmitted disease and so on. It was quite an issue at the time. I've probably got a copy around somewhere so in, in terms of getting health messages out to game in there were those things from the student student unions. [00:11:00] Were there other things that were being published only once AIDS was on the scene. Uh, and then there was much more specific information produced, targeted at a an AIDS at a gay audience, and um, by then, the National Gay Rights Coalition was in existence, and I was involved in some of his activities and a group of three of us Hugo Guy, a nurse [00:11:30] called Gary Can. And I put together a little threefold pamphlet with an eye catching front page and then a lot of information about AIDS or grids, as it was known at the time. Gay related immune deficiency syndrome, Uh, a little bit about the, uh, about the opportunistic diseases that were most prevalent in those early stages [00:12:00] and information about the STD clinic and guarantees of confidentiality and that sort of thing. Let's just rewind a wee bit. And can you tell me before we get to HIV and AIDS? What was the National Gay rights Coalition, right? Well, it was it was a a sort of umbrella group for a lot of of gay and lesbian groups throughout the [00:12:30] country. It was national. Um, Christchurch took quite a prominent part in it. Um, head conferences, I think, you know, sent people overseas from time to time. Um, there was a lot of tension between the men and the women at some stages of that, um, and took an interest in law reform, um, gay rights issues, especially for young people, [00:13:00] especially for students uh, and picked up on things that were of concern to the gay community. And that's why um, you know, took an interest in in men's health in particular. And was it through the coalition that you first became aware of AIDS? I was certainly in the coalition at the time that I became first aware of that. I mean, I think, uh, not exactly through it, but, um, it was [00:13:30] the sort of thing we we started talking about. I mean, I. I became aware of AIDS in in as soon as it happened. Really? Um, you know, the the first reports I think in the states were June 1981 or within a month or two. we were aware out here that there was this new phenomenon and that it was a worry. Uh, and that was those early reports of of, uh, men presenting, uh, in the United [00:14:00] States with poses and Pneumocystis pneumonia, um, both of which are diseases that would not normally be, um, prevalent in younger people. And all of a sudden reports were coming into the Centre for Disease Control. I think it's called, uh, of these cases being reported now you're saying that about a month after it being reported in the states that you were picking up that information, how did you get that information? [00:14:30] Well, I think there must have been some reference in a, uh, in local papers, but in particular, uh, you know, a month of magazines from the United States took a month or two to get out here. Um, but, you know, the sorts of magazines like the Advocate that were coming to New Zealand carried articles about it and that first terribly confused God help us. What's happening? Sort of, uh, phase. And of course, [00:15:00] in a very short period of time, people started to die now overseas, and the real response in New Zealand was because of distance. We've got a chance to organise this before it hits. And in fact, with international travel, it didn't take long to make an appearance in New Zealand. Um, but we did feel that we had a tiny bit of lead time. [00:15:30] So if those first reports came out in June 1981 when did the ball start rolling in New Zealand? In terms of we, we've got to do something. Um, well, I can't remember when the AIDS support network, which was the precursor of the AIDS Foundation, set up. But the pamphlet that that Hugh and Gary and I wrote, um, I believe, was either late 83 or early 84. So that's [00:16:00] that's a bigger gap than I thought of, really. But in that time, it was just a case of sort of, you know what? What's going to happen soon after that? Once there was a real effort to to get organised. Um, I became involved with the group that petitioned, Harassed the the District Health Board into, you know, providing premises for the AIDS Foundation or for [00:16:30] the support network, Um, preferably providing some funding, uh, for staff, um, organising protocols for testing, uh, and particularly confidentiality around results. You know how they were going to. Because so we had the feeling right from the start that the most vulnerable section were casual, closeted [00:17:00] people. We thought that by and large, people who went to the sauna picked up information, got condoms and so forth, but it was the casual. I'm on my way home, and I'm going to pop into Hagley Park and have it off with someone that they they were people who were sort of more more danger, don't know whether we were right or not. But that's what we felt. So we felt that there needed to be some forms of publicity that could reach them. And they were particularly [00:17:30] vulnerable in terms of privacy because, you know, if they were going home to a family, um, they didn't want something from the district Health Board labelled sexually transmitted disease division arriving in the letter box. So a whole lot of things like that. And when you say we is that the people in the National Gay Rights Coalition for an actor looking at those dates, there is a good year to year and a half between the first reports [00:18:00] and the National Gay Rights Coalition putting out this pamphlet, What was the feeling in the interim time? Well, I, I think, to be honest, almost worldwide, there was still confusion. What is this? What's its cause? You know, it was there were years of debate about what what the causal organism was. You know, it had various names HTLV three [00:18:30] and then the French insisted on calling it something else, and eventually you know we settled on HIV. So it was stuff like that. Um uh, I mean, in the in the early days, there was all that discussion about, you know, green monkeys and and susceptible populations and so forth. And I remember one joke that must have been in. I'm laughing about something. But then it must have been in the advocate that I read it. But it was about a a young Jewish man who [00:19:00] who who had HIV, and he had trouble persuading his parents that he was a Asian. There was no way a young Jewish man was going to tell his parents that he was gay. And Haitians were one of the special susceptible populations. Yeah, that sort of black humour. Uh, and I think it was just confusing that in that period. Um, yeah, from 81 really to 83. [00:19:30] 84 even later. Just worldwide people were grasping on, you know. What is it? Where is it coming from? How do we control it? How bad is it going to be? And then, of course, people in the States just started to drive, uh, die in droves and then then bit by bit friends here died at that time, You were also visiting Australia. How was AIDS affecting [00:20:00] the communities there? Um, I didn't notice a great deal of difference. But then, by the time AIDS was on the scene, my visits to Australia were with my partner and we weren't really engaging and that we weren't socialising with people or engaging with people who were likely to be susceptible or involved. [00:20:30] So, I mean, I didn't get a chance to see what saunas were doing in Australia in 84. Um, I mean, I read about it in some of the Australian magazines, but by and large, what they were doing was similar to what we were doing. Now I keep on saying aids. But actually, at the time, that wasn't the word that was used. Was it or the acronym? I think it was by by 83 84. 0, no. Well, I'm sure [00:21:00] the Pam I'm I'm pretty sure our 83 84 pamphlet referred to grids, gay related immune deficiency syndrome. It was being used in the United States, and that was because they knew it was immune deficiency because people who normally threw off these um diseases for most of us, they don't even if we're carrying them. They don't affect us because our immune systems deal with them. [00:21:30] Uh, and they see those first reports. Those 1981 reports were all young gay men. Can you tell me about the discussions that were happening within the national Gay rights Coalition in terms of trying to formulate some kind of pamphlets or health messages for gay men? At the time, the effort was to to pick up the best advice from overseas to convert it to, um, New [00:22:00] Zealand terminology. Uh, make sure that all the contact information was was valid in New Zealand. Um, of course, one of the big worries at that point was that homosexual acts were still criminal. And that, of course, became a plank in the law reform debate. Because those people that I mentioned before who were most susceptible, most closeted and so forth they needed to know that they could go for a test [00:22:30] without the authorities making links with criminal activity. Did the coalition have any discussions with places like the Department of Health or other government agencies? Certainly. Did Department of Health for funding and my recollection is that the government did put up some funding quite early on, uh, and and locally, my biggest task. My biggest input locally was the arguments [00:23:00] with the district Health Board over funding premises, testing protocols and so on. Um, and they they probably weren't as early as 83 84. But they they can't let's say 84 85. You know, quite quite early on in the scheme of things, certainly before law reform and we had the aid support network formed a local branch, and we had regular meetings of the key people in that, [00:23:30] and by then we had a young doctor who was a major, uh, help in terms of the relationship with the hospital board. And there was a councillor who I think was funded by the government for, um, focused on AIDS. The leaflet that the coalition put out was that the first leaflet describing grids. Well, [00:24:00] I think it was, uh, in the New Zealand context. Um, I certainly haven't seen any hand out publicity. The the mayor. It was mainly a, um a Christchurch initiative. And I don't know what other centres were doing, but certainly in terms of the Christchurch area that was very early, and the the three or two of us at least were recognised relatively recently [00:24:30] for having you know, been involved in that very early initiative. Why do you think it was a community driven initiative that put out that first material and not something like the Department of Health? I think because they had no particular interest in gay men, they didn't know how they could communicate with with gay men, particularly of the type that we've referred to a couple of times, or perhaps more [00:25:00] casual participators. I mean, Department of Health publicity about a whole range of things seems to me have to have improved hugely over the decades since then. I mean, if I go into a doctor's waiting room, there's stuff about everything. I'm particularly interested in the stuff about diabetes, but I mean, there's all sorts of stuff pamphlet after pamphlet and in several languages. Well, that's relatively new in [00:25:30] my experience. And I we felt at the time that we needed to do something targeted at gay men because no one else was yet doing that. So the pamphlet came out, and where was it distributed? Sauna. We put copies in Los. We put, um, on service clubs, health clinics, doctors waiting rooms and so forth. Sometimes they were removed. [00:26:00] They because it's a threefold pamphlet. It's ordinary paper. It wasn't all that good for leaving and say the open air conveniences at Hagley Park. Um, and we were sort of we were sort of conscious of that. But, you know, we'd leave a few copies in a in a cubicle or or whatever. There was one. There was one set of los at the Polytech that I felt I was never involved in anything [00:26:30] there. But I felt that, um, it looked to me as though there were a few gay students sort of making use of that particular facility. So I put a pile of them in in the cubicles there, that sort of thing. You were saying that sometimes pamphlets were removed resistance to actually seeing this type of information. Where was that coming from? Would it be fair? The the front page of [00:27:00] it? It wasn't obscene or anything like that, but it was intended to be eye catching. And as I remembered, it was a a sort of, uh, it was borrowed from an American magazine. And it was a It was a, you know, a youngish man, you know, nearly naked and stretching up like this with 19 eighties long flowing hair. And, like so And I think some doctors receptionist just felt that that wasn't an appropriate [00:27:30] thing to be on their shelves. I don't know. I don't think medically that anyone would have rejected, although, Well, I mean, there was a very There was a very common reaction throughout the community that, you know, it served your right there through the mainstream community. Yeah, And I'm sure, you know, because I've known doctors receptionists who weren't very sympathetic but say unmarried mothers I mean sort [00:28:00] of pass now. But, you know, there was a you know, you you weren't all that keen about going to your GP about a sexually transmitted disease Didn't bother me because I would say, if you're taking a blood test for blood sugar, I want you to tick the HIV box. But, you know, most people would rather go very anonymously and give a false name at the clinic than than front up with a GP. How did the [00:28:30] gay community respond to the pamphlet? I think it was fairly positive. Certainly felt that, you know, that it was important that we've made an effort. Uh, what I can't remember is whether there was anything or not about condoms. And yet by 83 84 that ought to have been. Was there a feeling within the gay community that this is something happening elsewhere and won't happen in Christchurch? We thought it would. We thought it would come, but we thought we we thought we had [00:29:00] lead time. That's my recollection of it. And so, of course, when the first person you know arrived back from overseas suffering from AIDS, that was bad. That was bad news anywhere in New Zealand. I mean, not Christchurch in particular. But it was quite early on, um, the the the first of the first of acquaintances people that I, you know, had met and had some social contact with, uh died. It was pretty pretty bad news. [00:29:30] I also I also had been because although I wasn't cruising a great deal, I mean, I wasn't completely, uh, without risk. And so as soon as the clinic was properly set up partly because I thought I need a clean bill of health. And partly because I was I was in the Gay Rights Coalition and I was monitoring all this and I thought, I want to see what actually happens if someone that they [00:30:00] don't know is involved. Not exactly. You know, the mystery shopper. But but But that that sort of approach, I want to see how I am actually treated, uh, right through the process. And it was fine whether it would be fine for everyone. I don't know. I mean, I wasn't a working class Polynesian, for example. I don't just don't know, but from my point of view and that I was approaching it with a certain amount of information a certain amount of, um, you know, political and public confidence. [00:30:30] Um, but it it was fine. I was pleased to have done it. And as I said before, uh, after that, any time blood was being taken, I just ask the GP to tick the box. So, working on the information you had about HIV and AIDS when you first became aware of it, did that change your sexual practises? No. [00:31:00] I knew. And I knew enough about what activities were significantly risky. and I wasn't actually participating in those with casual people. Um, I I it it did. It did slow me down. It did. It changed the pattern in that respect. And, you know, David was tested and I was tested, and we were both, um, negative. So, [00:31:30] uh, I guess I was just more more careful, but I wasn't really indulging in high risk activity. Can you recall when the first person you knew came back to New Zealand or was in New Zealand and discovered they were HIV positive? There was a guy who had had some contact with the scent, the gay Catholic group that I was involved in. [00:32:00] Nice guy, Very attractive guy. And I think I think that was a feature. Young men who were in the gay community, considered to be particularly attractive, were probably particularly sexually active and probably were more susceptible to infection. Um, but that was I was very, very sad. I've been to a few gay funerals, but his was the first [00:32:30] and the and the saddest. It was just just terrible, really. To have lost such a beautiful person, lost anyone but to to have lost such a beautiful person so early in his life. Really? Had you ever encountered anything like that before In terms of his illness? Uh, I think it just it made me very sad for his loss, but also brought it [00:33:00] well and truly home that this was now a New Zealand issue. I mean, I've known all that, and I said we were sort of preparing for it and waiting for it and expecting it. But it was here it was It's arrived, Um, and a reminder that we needed to be, you know, more careful. And that and that there were people who were particularly susceptible for one reason or another. Hm. Can you describe how the [00:33:30] gay community changed, if at all, from the period of first becoming aware of HIV A. I DS through to the first people coming into Christchurch with the virus, just that sense of waiting, and now it's arrived. And, uh, some of us involved in trying to set up the systems that would be needed to address it, the training workshops for carers, for example. [00:34:00] Um and I'm I'm sure it did change some people's behaviour and and certainly for for anyone who was involved and um, or or condoms at at the sauna. And I think that anyone who was at risk and who was involved in an or sex was probably being more cautious. I think that's I think that slacked off since [00:34:30] possibly now that it's not an absolute and automatic immediate death sentence. Were you involved in some of the training to become carers? Yep. Uh, and those were the days when we were trying to put together a pool of people who could be called on and they they involved, you know, hygiene, basic car and skills of the first thing that was always confronting your [00:35:00] own fears and and checking out your own prejudices and and anxieties about it. Bring them out in the open dealing with them, if you could. Um, I remember, um, guided visualisation lying back and thinking about, you know, being led through, um, through reflections. Um, I was never called on to to care for anyone with aids, but the training that I got [00:35:30] was very valuable and caring for David. And David was your partner for 30 years, and he he died of motor neurone disease Motor neuron disease, November 95 uh, 26 months from first symptom to diagnosis. Uh, 13 months from first symptoms to diagnosis and another 13 months from diagnosis to death. So for just over two years, the [00:36:00] training was that undertaken through the aid support network. That's as I recall. And you were saying that you were helping in the Christchurch region getting off space or pushing for office office space? Yeah, it was for the setting up of the route clinic. Where was it going to be? And there was a fair bit of I mean, there was a fair bit of resistance. Um, not opposition. [00:36:30] Reluctance resistance. I felt on the part of the people we were dealing with in terms of fronting up with the with the funds and the and the and the premises. What do you think it was? I think pressure on resources generally. I mean, there always has been pressure on resources and possibly a group that, you know, important to have There was there was a lot of reaction overseas by then, all this attention going on AIDS, and I was [00:37:00] aware of this through the motor neuron network, which is, you know, a terrible disease and affects you know, um, 10,000 in USA and Canada and so forth. They can't get any publicity. There's no, you know, there's no film star promoting their cause, and all this money is going to these sort of thing. There was an element of that, and I think I we never had this out with them. But I, I think that a certain reluctance [00:37:30] and minimal cooperation was because there were lots of other groups in in Christchurch or in New Zealand who needed funding and premises and staffing, uh, who were more deserving. You know, you only get this disease because you've been up to no good. Yeah, So were the publications that were put out in the early years about protection. [00:38:00] So stopping people from from getting the virus or were they more about supporting people with the virus? That first pamphlet certainly describe the symptoms and advertise the testing. Can you recall the the types of language more specific words? We We've always had that issue in in game related matters, you know? Do you call a fuck fuck or don't you sort of thing. You know, um uh, [00:38:30] that first pamphlet was fairly technical. I mean, it would it would use anatomical words rather than slang words. And that's partly because the tone of it was talking about, you know, sarcoma and describing it and, you know, that sort of thing. Uh, so that was my So, in spite of the front cover, I think it was a fairly serious pamphlet aimed to communicate information. [00:39:00] The, uh I can't remember seeing early public health stuff, but I know that aid support network people like Ray would be wanting it to would be wanting it to be blunt and direct. And I guess we got around to that, too. Yeah. And, you know, there were campaigns, you know, the Penis dressed in a condom and all that [00:39:30] sort of thing. So there was there was an easing that there was a shift in how clinical the information needed to be. So I think it did become blunter and and more direct at this time in the eighties. Were you quite involved in the church that came and went at about the time David was dying? 85. Uh, I, I really dropped out. So I'd been strongly involved in the late [00:40:00] seventies, early eighties, I went through a period of not being terribly involved, and then once David had died, it sounds odd, but once David had died, I really returned to the church. Can you describe the church's reaction to HIV? A. I DS. In those early years, um, the local church was unsupportive. There were two nuns, Sisters [00:40:30] of Compassion Sister Sue and Sister Francy, who were involved in the early days of the Aid Support Network. They are a community of nuns that if I got it right who were dedicated to health issues and they got involved in the Aid Support Network, the bishop of the time forbade them to be involved. And I was absolutely appalled. And I wrote to the bishop saying, You know that it's that what you've what you've [00:41:00] ordered is absolutely disgusting. These women were da, da, da and furthermore, for God's sake, if you're going to have anything to say about homosexuality or AIDS in future, don't use Father X as your spokesperson. Just rounding up this chat about HIV and AIDS, did you, at the time think it would become what it's become now? I think [00:41:30] we knew bad. Uh, bad news was on the way. Uh, and there was a period, uh, before some of the drug companies really got into research and development of medication. There was a period where, um I. I thought it was going to be a huge toll worldwide. Now I mean, I know it has been. You only have to look at the AIDS cook projects and so forth. It's been terrible, [00:42:00] but, um, it's perhaps not developed and gay community in the West, to the extent that I might have once feared, so that now I'm in. My compassion goes out to the populations of Southern Africa. You know, we the three and five people infected with HIV, and it's just [00:42:30] just colossal. And of course, some people, God help us. Some people say, Well, that's God's way of controlling the population level, make you weep. I don't believe in a God who operates like that.
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