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I was brought up in, uh, Dunedin, north, the north end of Dunedin. And opposite our place was the North Ground, which was a, um, a city block sized, um, training area, rugby and cricket and so forth. And, uh, in one corner of the north ground was an old fashioned men's loo. You know, concrete. No, No lights. No Sanit. Well, I was gonna say [00:00:30] no sanitation, but you know what I mean? A real old stuff. You know, I was always conscious of that as a boy, and it later became one of the places where I regularly routinely, one might say cruised. Um, my first. My first sexual awareness all the time when I sort of came to puberty was when I was about age 12. That would be the end of 1957. Something like that. Um, [00:01:00] and I really had no sexual experience except one sort of fumbling with a boy at intermediate, uh, which didn't really mean anything much until the year that I was involved as a schoolboy in a French play. And it was during the the down time of that production that I became friendly with, uh, with a guy who had been at school a few years ahead of me, had my first [00:01:30] adult sexual experience with him, and that was so great that it triggered a pattern. I come across a book called Minority that actually spelled out. You know, how you went about picking people up and and so forth anyway might have learned might have might have come to the same conclusions anyway. But so for those from that point on, so I'm saying Fifth form, sixth form and so forth. Um, [00:02:00] I was cruising in Dunedin fairly steadily, especially on the north ground. And by and large, they were anonymous. One-off experiences about a couple of people who, uh, I met more than once. One was a very nice guy who subsequently got caught by the police and prosecuted and jailed. Uh, and another was a medical student who was in the one of the university [00:02:30] rugby teams. And he was we're saying late autumn, early winter, he was practising on. He was doing training on on the on the north ground, and I hung around and it was obvious that I was you know, we're talking about nine o'clock at night in winter. I hung around and he eventually came over and made contact with me. And [00:03:00] he and I met. Never knew his name, uh, learned a wee bit about him, that he was doing medicine and stuff like that. But, uh, I, uh I went with him, I don't know, perhaps a dozen times through that winter. Uh, and that was a great I have to say, that was a great pleasure to me. He was a hell of a nice guy, and we hit it off sexually, so that was good. Um, [00:03:30] there were other venues around Dunedin that I occasionally got to, but I didn't have a car, and and And it wasn't the sort of thing you didn't go out. I didn't go out at night on a bike. Um, but there were other other places that I stopped off at and, um, and came to recognise one or two people. Um, when? When you say cruising, can you describe for me how [00:04:00] you would cruise somebody at that time? We're talking in the late 19 fifties. How you would figure out that this person was actually walking for sex and and how it all kind of worked? Yeah, well, the usual. The usual scene would be, uh, a public toilet at the urinals. And, you know, if you were there to pee, and then that was over in a relatively short period of time, and you zipped up and left, [00:04:30] um, if you if you stay If you hung around, if you loit then A and someone else was loitering it. It became pretty obvious to each of you that the that the other was, uh, interested or potentially interested. And sometimes that would involve, you know, leaving the toilet and then having a chat out on the street with very careful chat testing, [00:05:00] whether the other, the other person was genuinely interested and then finding somewhere nearby. I didn't have a car, but the other, the other people I picked up usually if it wasn't the north ground, there was plenty of potential. And, you know, around the north ground where you could, uh, hide away for a few minutes, Um, so it was that very testing the water, you know, um, these days people talk about [00:05:30] I don't think that really applied to me in those days, but, uh, the behaviour was behaviour on my part the behaviour on the other person's part was was pretty obvious to each other, even if ordinary members of the public might not have actually realised there was anything going on, because at this time it was still legal. And how and indeed you had to be bloody careful that the person [00:06:00] who appeared to be interested wasn't, in fact, a decoy cop, which certainly happened to me on one occasion and led to my arrest. Um, but at this stage, how old are you at? At this point, I'd be saying 1963. So I'm 62. 63 18 19. Something like that. Um, but quite steadily over those years, from about 16 on 16, 17, 18, 19. Could [00:06:30] you spot a homosexual? No, not not No, definitely not in those circumstances. I thought about it later, uh, in in terms of, you know, staff and colleagues or people in a public place. And, uh, if if you're in, I feel that if I'm in reasonably long conversation with someone in a busy public setting, um, that I would I might well pick up hints [00:07:00] from who they looked at and who they, uh, seem to take an extra interest in, and I might I might think, Oh, you know, he's just spotted someone coming in the door who's just come in the door. Oh, I see that attractive young man. Oh, I Perhaps, you know, perhaps this is Ian's interest, you know, that sort of thing. But not in these circumstances. So there was no opportunity to I. I don't think I had any intuition. It was just once they started to behave [00:07:30] in a reciprocal way to the way I was behaving. So in the late fifties, did you ever pick up the wrong person? As in as in, you know, somebody that wanted to bash you or No, no, no, certainly not. At that time, I might have picked up the wrong person. And what they expected of me, uh, wasn't what I was comfortable with. Uh, that happened occasionally. Um, [00:08:00] but more often than not, we quite quickly established what the other person expected or was interested in doing or indeed not doing. And I have I have been confronted in Christchurch in more recent years on two separate occasions by young men who were out to make trouble. I've had a knife pulled on me, and I've had two watches stolen. [00:08:30] But that's not even recent. That's, you know, 10 years ago or so. So can you identify any other beats around that were were happening at that time? Um, no, they were. They were mainly centred on public facilities at different parks. Um, there was no sauna or anything of that sort at the time. Uh, and as far as I was aware, [00:09:00] there was no no, no club like the do society in or anything like that, um, the beach, the gardens, and then facilities on parks and and training with sports grounds. I'm sure there was other things going on, but I wasn't party to them. We say nowadays that, um, people can live a completely open gay life [00:09:30] and that involves you know, who you live with, how you live. And and sex and and and stuff like that. Back then in the fifties, what did it mean to be gay? Well, for me, it was just that major sense of difference. Um, I wasn't then at the age where I would have been expecting. Well, I suppose I was expected to have a girlfriend. And at high school Somewhat to my shame, I did, in fact, have a steady girlfriend. [00:10:00] Um, that didn't last beyond the end of high school. Um, I you know, we we went to all the dancers there. There was a small group of of boys from Otago boys who who had girlfriends from Otago girls, and we'd go to the school dances and Bible class socials and things like that together. Um, but I feel very sorry about it now, but, you know, I would take I would take my girlfriend home and she would obviously be [00:10:30] interested in in getting a bit sort of intimate. And I'd be thinking, Bloody hell, it's half past 12. If I don't get back down to back down to George Street, I'm going to be too late. Uh, I say that with a sense of shame. Really? Uh, and and the relationship didn't really last. We put this part quite amicably. I think Jean realised that the, uh, I wasn't really terribly interested in her, and I just [00:11:00] felt that it was better to let it go. What else did it mean to be gay? Different, isolated. A bit careful, but it was a compartment of life. I still had ordinary friendships. I had my family and friends. Life was OK. Um, I Although being homosexual is a major component of one's life, it's not all of life. Um, [00:11:30] and there were plenty of other things happening in in in life. Did you have gay friends? None at all to two guys who were at school with me one my year, one my class at Otago boys and one a year behind us. Uh, have since identified to me as gay. Um, with the guy who was in my class. [00:12:00] I'm really rather sorry that I didn't that we didn't realise this about each other then. I don't think either of us were the obvious ones in the class. To be honest, I certainly didn't. Didn't suspect him of being gay. Um, and the the other one that the like, the the guy who was one year behind, he had the nickname of Flowery, and he was quite camp and quite ostentatiously effeminate. [00:12:30] Um, and I didn't have any school contact with him, but I had I met him later on in Dunedin, and I've since been in touch with him. Uh, just by email. and flowy was the name given by other students. What other? What other names would they call people? Uh, well, homosexual deviant in. Well, what would school kids call that? Um, queer would be the main one in those days. [00:13:00] Queer. Some of the more knowledgeable ones might talk about poo pushing or something like that. Or just assuming that the only thing you were interested in was anal sex. Um, Ben, um, yeah, would be the main one. I keep this P FA came into use at one stage, and I remember David Long using the word in some sort of public context and claiming later [00:13:30] that he didn't actually know what it what it normally meant. Uh, but anyway, uh, I don't remember from my school days, but certainly not long after. Perhaps, can you recall at that time, were there any images in the media? Um, on the radio and in newspapers, et cetera, that were obviously gay characters? Uh, I'd say absolutely not. [00:14:00] Uh, the there may have been after television came in. There might have been one or two of those sort of camp comedians, but at the but at the time, no. And I've made quite AAA study of what you might call popular fiction with a gay theme. And until quite late it was really doom and gloom and usually involved a suicide. [00:14:30] Um And then there was a gradual change, and I've got one or two books from that very early period where there might have been a suicide. But the main character came out the other end, usually with a with a partner, Uh, and then one, which was just written shortly after Stonewall in 1969. It was a very positive novel and bit by bit after that. And then, of course, we started eventually to get perfectly ordinary gay characters in, uh, almost, You know, [00:15:00] if it was American, there had to be at least one black character and one gay character. Uh, and some of the better English TV programmes have, quite, I think, quite reasonable, truthful and positive. Um, displays of gay gay characters. The beats in Dunedin, the men that you actually met on the on the beats. Could you describe them? Did they have any? Were [00:15:30] there any similar features? Um, I think they were. I think they were quite pleased to find a school boy. I mean, you know, I was a physically mature school boy, but nevertheless, I was a school boy. Um, but by and by and large, um, at the north ground, you got, you know, some some sort of middle class intellectual types. Uh, all the people I went with were [00:16:00] normal sort of average males. Um, you know, masculine looking, masculine acting, except in the sexual sense. Um, yeah. If you had been caught at that time or if they had been caught at that time, what would have the, um, consequences? Been if I'd been caught? Certainly charged. That really would [00:16:30] have been terrible and socially terrible. Shame. This is the shame of it. The embarrassment, the embarrassment for family. But it didn't stop me taking the risk. You were extra careful if you thought that the person might be a police decoy. Uh, but, uh, I only once had trouble with the police in that period, and that was 1965. [00:17:00] So I'm at varsity by then. And it was I'd been in the capping concert that year, and I met a guy at, uh at the at the do the capping function. After that and he had a car. Nice new console, Cortina console Ford console. And we got in the car and we drove way down Logan Park to find a discrete place. And I don't [00:17:30] know why the cops thought we were suspicious, but they followed us. And because this was a long one way, Uh uh, no end, no Exit street. Um, they caught up with us and challenged us. By then we had swapped stories. And of course, by that time, um, we were able to say that we yes, we were guilty. We thought [00:18:00] that they knew that we were underage drinkers. Um, they got they. They required the other guy to report with his driver's licence. He didn't have his driver's licence on him, and they required him to report the next day. But by then he said, we'd swapped names. We were able to say we knew each other, but I knew he was a law student. He knew what I was doing. And so for them, we sort of had a [00:18:30] a story that was a bit thin, but it was It was plausible. The drinking age must have been 21 then and I was 20 coming up 21 later that year. But that was the story we built on. And when the cops followed you down down that road and they pulled you over, what kind of questions did they ask? What? What were they? What are you doing? Why are you down here? This is a long way out of your normal way. Where are you going? To you know. Who are you? Do you know each other? [00:19:00] I mean, they I'm sure they knew what we were up to. Um did they make any reference to? No. And we came straight out of the story that we thought was underage drinking. They were interested in. So were the were the police, uh, doing a lot of decoy work and trying to get people I? I think so. Yeah. I think that varied from time to time. I think what tended to happen was [00:19:30] when you got a When you got a senior police officer who had a bit of a thing about it, he would put more resources into it. Uh, that's the general feeling. II I got, um so I don't know how widespread it was. I do know that one, if not two, if not three police were, uh, were operating in 1979 when I was arrested. I mean, that was definitely a decoy. [00:20:00] A provocateur type situation. So in those early years in the fifties and sixties in Dunedin was the talk amongst the people on the beach about police entrapment or police picking people up? Yes. Yes, definitely. Um, you would get people who said, you know, by the way, I've seen you here before. You just need to be careful. The [00:20:30] the guy in the blue vel, uh, as a police officer. So just watch out. Yeah, that that sort of thing. Or they might say, Have you seen a guy about, you know, 5 10 with dark curly hair around? And you might say I think I saw him last week. Well, watch out for him. I think he's a police. Um, you know, I think he is a policeman, that sort of thing. Could you spot them? [00:21:00] No, not really. Uh, no, They they behave as one would expect someone you were interested to behave. And where do you think they got? I suppose the knowledge of how to behave from I mean, were these, for instance, gay policemen? Well, I've always assumed that that must have been. Although in those days I think it would be more than your employment was worth for a police officer to identify as gay. [00:21:30] Um, perhaps they got them from the same books I was reading. Can you recall any media response if somebody was convicted of an indecency? Basically no. Great, No great flurry of. But they would They would publish the court news. They would identify you by name. Uh, and the charge and the sentence. Um, if there was something a bit more sensational because of the person involved, [00:22:00] there might be a bit a bit more publicity and And if there was not so much people, uh, caught on the on the beat. But if there was something a bit more what they would think of as sinister, um you know, choir master choir boys, that sort of thing, truth in particular, used to do major articles on that. And I'm just gonna pick up when I say indecency. That was the charge, wasn't it? When if you [00:22:30] were charged, it was an indecent assault on a mat, and that was even, uh, being sexually active with another male of the same age who was consenting, it would still be in. It didn't matter what the age was. The in the in the Crimes Act, because it was a crime. Uh, there was probably a difference if the other person was under 12. Uh, I don't think 16 was at issue [00:23:00] then was for males and females, but not for, uh it wasn't until after law reform that 16 became the age of consent. Because, of course, before that, there was no age of consent because you couldn't consent to a crime. So you moved from Dunedin to Wellington for a couple of Yeah. When was that? I moved to Wellington in 1971. And what was the gay scene like in Wellington? Didn't have much to do [00:23:30] with it. I was living in an urban commune. David and I paired up with the guy who had introduced me to David and his wife. So there were four of us living in Kilburn. And, um, none of us get personal money. Three of us were working. The three men were working and the woman stayed at home and looked after the child and we paid all our pay [00:24:00] into one bank account. And we drew from what we needed. Or if it was a major item by consultation with the whole group. Financially, it worked out well. In terms of relationships. It was catastrophic. And and and it eventually broke up. Um, David moved out first, and then I found it impossible living apart from him. So I also moved out and joined him. And David was somebody you met [00:24:30] via the church. No, no, David was the person that, uh, I was introduced to by a fellow student at at college in Dunedin. Uh, this fellow student had had said that he had a friend in Timaru who, uh, was very distressed because he was homosexual, didn't know what to do about it. And, uh, I said, well, so was I. And wasn't anything ready to help. So David and I met and we courted for, I don't know, a few months [00:25:00] and then began a sexual relationship and then started living together and lived together on more or less lived together from then, till the time David died in 1995. But there was this brief period uh, during a commune just a week or two in those commune days when David had moved out. Uh, and I remained in the commune. So did you experience any gay lifestyle in Wellington? Uh, not really. Although I was a member of the [00:25:30] New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society. Um, and there was one very brief period where David and I went to the Wakefield Street sauna. Um, but that was about the limit of it, Really? I mean, I was aware that there was the Dorian Society. Uh, I was quite active with the homosexual Law Reform Society, but that was all terribly proper. What was the Wakefield [00:26:00] like to create? Very a novelty. As far as I was concerned, I'd never read anything like it. Um, a lot of people Surprising, surprising freedom. Um, relatively easy to engage with with someone who was attractive to you and who found you attractive. Um, it didn't It wasn't. It wasn't a great success to go with your [00:26:30] life partner, even though you both talked about it and were both open to the idea. Or particularly if one of you did pick up someone and there was some sort of sexual engagement at the time and the other Hadn't you know that? Not straightforward. We didn't persist with it, Really? I mean, was it quite well populated? Yeah, as I say, very novel. I mean, I knew that such places existed in [00:27:00] in, um, America. Uh, and I subsequently found out there are plenty of them in Australia, but, um, it was pretty novel. How did you get that information that they were in America and elsewhere through American gay magazines, Basically. And in terms of Australia, um, I went to Australia on a on a training trip quite early in my, um, administrative career and, you know, sort of visited [00:27:30] saunas in both Melbourne and Sydney. So how was getting publications gay publications into New Zealand? How How was that? Those more straightforward magazines like advocate or the village voice and papers like that. Not that the Village voice was explicitly gay, but it carried a lot of gay advertisements and things. Um, they were OK, but, um, the the customs were were certainly down on anything. That was pornography. I mean, stuff that you could pick up at the corner. [00:28:00] Dairy now was confiscated, and you were in big trouble for trying to import it. Um, I had a very complicated arrangement. Had a PO. Box at that, uh, in my early days in Christchurch and we used to use a fictitious name and get publications sent to MJ. Ryan at PO. Box 22718. and if you got a card from customs saying that they were holding an item addressed to MJ Ryan, you wrote across the card not [00:28:30] known at this address and just abandoned it, And if it got through, that was fine. You collected MJ Ryan's mail. It seems hard to believe, because we were there many times where customers would would pick that up twice. I had to abandon things that had been posted back to me, or that I had posted back from Australia rather than try and bring them in through a suitcase. But it's interesting that they would allow things like [00:29:00] the Advocate which was would still be promoting homosexuality. Yeah, Yeah, um, they they seem to be. Of course, they they No, they didn't like they didn't like the more extreme fiction. Um, for example, James Baldwin's another country was banned when it was first published, and then this really intrigues me to this day. And then it was released in hardback. [00:29:30] But the paperback was banned. So if you were a serious enough book collector and wealthy enough to pay for the hard back, you were probably trustworthy. But if you just wanted a popular four and six bene paperback No, I didn't believe it. So, experiencing that stuff overseas, how did it impact [00:30:00] on you when you came back to New Zealand and it was a bit more conservative? Um, really, an acknowledgement of that. I don't think I ever thought of moving to Australia just because you could get, you know, sexier magazines. But, uh, you were conscious that New Zealand was was a bit behind the times. Yeah, clearly this gay liberation movements were ahead in the States and in Australia. Not so much about the UK, but, [00:30:30] um, Australia and the States. Definitely. And But by then, the law reform movement in the early days of gay liberation and so forth was starting to make an impact here, and there was that feeling that it would come. So what year was this? Well, I mean, Stonewall was 69 but I'm talking about being in in Australia in 1980 my first trip to [00:31:00] Australia. So sort of about that time. And you know, by then the Law Reform Society had been chugging away for quite some time. I joined the Law Reform Society in 1967. So what are we talking about? 13 years or more? Um, be before this period and a and then by 85 we were in the thick of the law reform campaign, and I do think that we're talking about publications [00:31:30] and and so forth. I do think that once once homosexual activity was decriminalised, the argument that customs and CSS used that such publications had been promoting a crime was no longer an argument they could use or wanted to use. And I think that, you know, the the opening of of, uh or the reduction of of censorship about gay issues started from about that point, [00:32:00] as far as I can tell Now, apart from major violence and bestiality and probably paedophilia, though, that's really open, Open centre, I think certainly I bought, you know, videos and C DS and magazines that would have been unheard of and in the sixties or seventies. I want to come back to the, uh, various homosexual law reform groups. [00:32:30] Um, but you mentioned earlier that you had been involved in a charge of, uh, indecency in the late seventies. Can you tell me about that? Right. The the the charge was actually, uh, being a rogue and vagabond and loitering with intent. We didn't get as far as indecency, but I was loitering with intent to commit a crime, which would have been indecent assault on a male. Um, I was coming [00:33:00] home late at night. It had been a hell of a day. Um, I shouldn't have been cruising, but I did. Still in those days, sort of occasionally pop in. There seemed to be a flurry of activity around the public conveniences in Manchester Street. So we're in Christchurch? Yeah, 1979. Um, there've been a couple of of bashings there in recent times. Looked like a flurry of activity. And I thought, [00:33:30] uh uh, What's going on here? So I stopped and went in. There was a guy at the urinal. Might have been two guys can't remember. Exactly. And but I was a bit suspicious, and I left but one of the guys left. I left, he went back in and I went back in. And then I became suspicious, and I decided I need to get [00:34:00] out of here and out of here fast. So I left and was confronted at the door by a third cop who subsequently arrested me for loitering with intent, being a rogue and a bond in a public place. They they arrested me. He took me to the police station and at the police station. As they were taking my statement, one of the cops started really exaggerating what [00:34:30] I had done. I hadn't, You know, I hadn't done a thing other than going back in once, twice, uh, and he started inventing stuff, and I By then I sort of had what's about me. I mean, I knew what you were supposed to do because I published the list of what you do if the police get you and, uh and I thought no to her. No, I'm not taking any more of this. So at that point, I declined to answer any further questions [00:35:00] and said that I wanted my phone call. Who was I going to run? Well, I said I was going to ring David Cable, who was a lawyer. Was he an MP at that point anyway? He was a prominent politician, Uh, and he was chair of the Politic council. And so on whether I would have run David, I've worked. I've worked subsequently worked with David Cable during the law reform campaign. So I mean, there's nothing, um, peculiar about that. [00:35:30] The police said, Oh, you wouldn't want your employers to know, would you? And I said, uh, be no news to them. And indeed, subsequently, my boss offered a character reference, but you know, I shouldn't have been there. I hadn't been completely honest with David about what little cruising I was still doing, and [00:36:00] it was a matter of great distress to him and subsequently, of course, to me. And we got over that, and we had our moment subsequently. But we got over that, but it wasn't wasn't a good time, although, you know, there was no way I wasn't gonna be out it. But I still didn't want my name in the charge on the front page of the in the court news and the paper, and I certainly I knew I wouldn't [00:36:30] be jailed, but I didn't really want to be convicted or or fined. And as it happened, they, uh they subsequently dropped the charges. Now it's interesting. One of the things I put in my in my defence. My statement of of defence was that I was openly gay, that my employers and family knew I was gay and furthermore, that a senior police officer the year before had [00:37:00] rung me at work to say, uh, you know, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I understand that you are a prominent member of the gay community to which I said Yes, I am. And he said, Could you get this message out to the community that we want to know what was going on in the park on a particular night when someone had been badly assaulted? And we want you to get the message out that if people come forward [00:37:30] to say that they were in the park that night and what they saw, we will treat that with complete discretion and there will be no consequences. Can you get that message out to which I said Yes, I'll do what I can. So now that I was being done by the police, I was able to say, Hey, there's nothing secret about this And furthermore, I've cooperated with you guys before but it was really the thing that two things really annoyed me that they were [00:38:00] set up. Uh, they were decoys and that when the story, as it was being put down on paper, didn't really add up to much that they started, that one guy in particular started exaggerating. I was intrigued. He then disappeared. It was sort of almost good cock Babcock, because the guy who then escorted me off the premises dealt with bail and and took me off the premises, apologised for the behaviour [00:38:30] of his colleague. Sorry about my mate upstairs. He gets a bit carried away or something plays like that. But for the few months between being charged and being told that the charges were withdrawn, they were pretty tense at home in particular, what could have been the result of being charged with loitering and being a vagabond and a vagrant in the public [00:39:00] place for 500 bucks and publicity. And again, you see, I mean, I would I wasn't ashamed of being gay, but I really didn't want this episode in the paper. For my sake, For David's sake, for my family's sake, I just I mean, you know, now, uh, you know, I've been involved in things like that, uh, through rainbow coloured glasses. I mean, I, uh, my name and my bits [00:39:30] of my story have appeared all over the place. So it's not an issue now, but at the at the time, although I was out, I I'm I was a bit embarrassed about the whole cruising thing. Why do you think that the police were actively policing the toilets? Don't know what it was. I was always told that they only reacted if there'd been some complaints. Now, in terms of that particular venue, [00:40:00] there had been some violence there earlier. So one could say that they were there legitimately or sort of, you know, that it was within their range of duties. I don't think that warranted having a couple of decoys, uh, or embroidering the story. Um, I've also been told that, you know, different times of different senior police officers, uh, you know, put more energy and resource [00:40:30] into it than others. Um, several of my friends have had brushes with the police of that sort. And as I've said to you, I've had a couple the one and years before. And then and then this one. Do you have other examples of instances where where gay men have maybe been targeted by by their officials or people going to officials? There was 11 [00:41:00] example in Dunedin, Uh, that affected me quite profoundly. Uh, because I knew I knew reasonably well, one of the people who were involved, um, my friend had a relationship with with a bisexual guy, Um, who at the time had a girlfriend as well as a boyfriend. The girlfriend, As I understand it, became jealous of the amount of time my friend and the boyfriend [00:41:30] were were spending together and provided the police with information about where and when they would be together. The police raided the house, found them in bed together, arrested them, took them back to the police station and separated them, and told each of them that the other had confessed to what they'd been doing. [00:42:00] Neither had, in fact, um, and as a consequence of that, my friend was convicted and required May have been fined and I can't remember but was required to undergo therapy at Ashburn Hall, The psychiatric, the private psy psychiatric facility in Dunedin and the bisexual boyfriend, uh, was, uh, expelled from the country. He was a Dutch national and was sent home. [00:42:30] Um, I thought that was pretty grim. I wasn't able to do much other than provide my friend with, you know, support and the offer offer of character reference and stuff like that. But I That was pretty grim, really. What year was that? Uh, I was still in Dunedin, so it's before 1971. And the only reason the police raided that house was because of homosexual [00:43:00] activity. I don't believe there was anything else involved. There was never any suggestion about, you know, drugs or no, I mean, my friend was a was probably at varsity at that point and went on to Teachers College and became a very good teacher. And that was interesting in itself that he declared this incident in this application for Teachers College and the authorities. The teacher's college authorities at that point were wise enough to know that someone who was who [00:43:30] was caught in these circumstances with an adult was not necessarily a danger to school Children. Not everyone would have drawn that conclusion at the time. Mhm. Just thinking along the lines of of crime and impact. And I'm wondering, did things like the, um Charles Everhart killing in Hagley Park and the Parker Hume murder in Christchurch [00:44:00] Did they have any impact on you? Um, the the Hagley Park murder certainly did, Um, at the at the time, I mean, I was absolutely horrified that courts reached the conclusion they did. Um, not long after that, a case of more of of my sort of, you know, being a sort of thing. Anyway, a case came up before [00:44:30] a stipend magistrate, as called then would have been now called a district court judge, and he dismissed the charges. And I think the police appealed that and won on appeal. Uh, but that was the That was the first time I recall hearing of a judge who said, Oh, for goodness sake. Mm. It was a time when we were looking for any little shifts in public [00:45:00] opinion and public behaviour. All of that was happening around the mid sixties and a wee bit later. Yeah, You said earlier that you joined the Homosexual Law Reform Society in 1967. Is that when it started or it can't have been going long, I think it might have been 1965. Um, so I was starting to engage [00:45:30] with law reform issues. And I became, uh, a regular pen pal with Jack Goodwin, who was the secretary of the homosexual Law Reform Society at that stage. Stayed with him once or twice in Wellington, and he stayed with David and me here in Christchurch. Um, And at that time, uh, we got a wee bit of response, mainly from a Methodist minister in Dunedin [00:46:00] North who also wanted to get involved in the move for change. So we had sort of a bit of letter writing and the occasional small scale public meeting, nothing very significant or or well organised. And at that point, I just started keeping track of everything that's happening in the law reform scene, writing the old letter petition in Parliament, agonising over the Vin young [00:46:30] attempt and the Warren Freer attempt. Um, it must have been quite something if you were being involved with the Law Reform Society in the 65 to 67 and then having stone wall in the US in 1969 when stone wall happened. How how How did you How did you respond? How did what did you think of that? Uh, Well, I was I was amazed. Uh, but I was. The thing I was really [00:47:00] intrigued by was the creation of gay liberation. Now, in the early days, gay liberation was reasonably well established in Christchurch by the time I got here in 1973 and because of my involvement in the Law Reform Society, which was in favour of law reform and would have accepted any move in the right direction. But the Gay Liberation Front from the start was repeal the [00:47:30] equality in the law. Nothing else. Now, in those early days, I'm talking, you know, seven early seventies I took the view of the Homosexual Law Reform Society and decided that anything in the right direction would be worth it. By the end of the campaign, I was absolutely in favour of the deliberation position. I mean, I had been I thought it through and saw how things had developed. And I was bitterly disappointed [00:48:00] that I was thrilled that we got the same age of consent as for heterosexuals. I thought it was brilliant because previous to that we were talking about, you know, 21 and 18 and so on, and that was somehow a bargaining point. But if we could get 21 we would later be able to adjust. No gay Liberation said no repeal and nothing else. So that was good. And of course, I was disappointed that the human rights bits were dropped in 85 86. Um, so [00:48:30] I was involved again later in 92 93 when we took that up and won the case there, too. Can you describe the difference and makeup of the Homosexual Law Reform Society as opposed to the people in gay liberation Homosexual law? Reform Society had a lot of of, um, heterosexuals. Um, the the society went for people, prominent public people who had, you know, great mana in New Zealand society, uh, professors [00:49:00] and archbishops and you know, people of that sort, whereas gay liberation was almost was either very much younger men or occasionally had older men who were a bit eccentric. But, you know, the contrast was quite different law from society populated by gay men. But by and large, very respectable professional gay men with a bit of status and that sort [00:49:30] of thing. And gay liberation was, um a lot of us who were quite different with some amazing characters, a lot of very attractive young men, and and the older men were entertaining, eccentric, but entertaining. So would you get many people that were in both organisations because it's probably the only one? No, there must have been more, But but certainly because of that basic [00:50:00] difference of opinion, people who come and, you know, I got in early before gay liberation was putting its ideas. And about that time, you know, wolfenden report, um, homosexual law reform in Britain all very stayed. I mean, in Britain, it was 21 and you had to be in private. And if there was a third person present, you weren't in private and all that sort of thing, you know? But gay liberation just said Nope. [00:50:30] Equality before the law and gay liberation. Where did that come from? Uh, well, the key person here, as far as I was concerned, was Robin Duff, who, you know, may or may not be known to you. He's still very active in the gay scene and in teacher politics. Um, he ran it here. Uh, I edited the magazine for a while. I It was called, um, and [00:51:00] people from gay liberation became the key part, Uh, key people in, um, in the homosexual law reform group, the Christchurch Gay Task Force. I think it was called not necessarily the same people. Uh, for example, I don't remember Robin taking a a large public part in the law reform movement. I'm sure he did a lot of work behind the scenes, [00:51:30] but, uh, I became part of the of the little group that was really running the law reform campaign in Christchurch. I think I was called the legislative coordinator. I was expected to keep track of all these minor amendments that are being proposed and kicking them around and feeding back to Fran and Co Bill Logan. Fran, Whatever. Whoever, Uh, you know what Christchurch thought about this or that. And we had strong associations then, too. With [00:52:00] hug heterosexuals. Unafraid of gays. Uh, great movement. A lot of nice people in that some people in that that I thought could have possibly been in Gay Liberation Front. But never mind. In those early years in the early seventies, how many people were involved in those organisations? How big were they? I suppose the Gay Liberation Front, which [00:52:30] I joined in, I don't know. 1974 75. Something like that. Um well, an average an average meeting, a weekly meeting, perhaps 20 people. If there was a special function on it might have been 30. The dancers, Gus Gay University students. I think it was the Gus dancers at Ireland were quite big because they they got a certain number of young, straight people and, of course, more women than [00:53:00] were involved in the law reform. There were some good women involved in law reform. Um, and just yes, just more people. Generally, people who wouldn't get involved politically would go to the dancers. And what about the wider gay community? The people that weren't involved in gay liberation and the homosexual Law Reform Society? What did they make of the idea of changing the law? Was it something they wanted? Or was [00:53:30] it? I think they were quite pleased when it happened, but they certainly didn't want it, nor did they think it was necessary. And they certainly weren't going to become politically active or identified publicly. Um, they preferred. I've got to say about prejudice. They preferred to continue their piss. Elegant socialising. Yeah, because it was quite I mean, we were all aware of it. There was quite a, uh, a social [00:54:00] stratum of of, uh, of wealthier, older, gay people in Christchurch who certainly we're not going to be identified with homosexual law reform. Um, and there were others who just were politically motivated but who weren't opposed and and so forth. And the and some God help us. Who Who, uh, you know, to cover the fact that they were gay were actually [00:54:30] toting the petition around. I've been asked to distribute this at work, and if I don't, people will think I'm gay, which I am, but I don't want them to know. Sad but true. My only part with the petition, which I'm sure I can't be prosecuted for now. I did steal a few pages from the art church porch if I found a petition in a church porch with lots of signatures on it, I [00:55:00] on two occasions quietly removed it. And this is the petition that was in the Was it 90 85 85 against the law? I mean, I found you know, the fact that DB lager and M Mouse had also signed the petition. I thought that was a real hoot. Uh, I was, uh I was very angry that groups such as the Salvation Army were toting around old people's homes. I was angry [00:55:30] that it was distributed at some Catholic schools. Um, but anyway, yeah, that's all in the past, and the petition was pretty, pretty easily sort of discredited. So that was one kind of anti reform action. I'm wondering, in the early days in the seventies, what were some of the actions that were happening in Christchurch that you were involved in to actually promote law reform or or liberation in the seventies? [00:56:00] Um, not a lot. Uh, that really came to a head sort of 85 86. Um, you know, the well, the deliberation meetings. Um, we were available as speakers for anyone who is interested. But again, that didn't really become a major focus of service group interests. Until law reform really started to be debated 85 deliberation [00:56:30] was was mainly social, really but social for people who were prepared to be politically active. So was it hard to, uh, keep the energy up over over the space of, like, at least 10 years? Really? Did people think that law reform would ever happen? Uh, I think most of us thought it would eventually, [00:57:00] You know, By then things were starting to shift. There was the UK reform, which was not what we wanted subsequent, but anyway, and one or two Australian states had changed. There was a lot of debate in the United States. Some European states, such as Holland in particular, had moved in that direction. And they were all not just, you know, Holland in particular, not dissimilar from New Zealand. A lot of Dutch people out there, you know. And [00:57:30] so the fact that Holland had moved quite radically, uh, made a difference here. I think I think we thought that it would eventually happen. So I'm wondering, did you notice a change in public attitudes towards homosexuality? You've got your gay liberation starting up. You've got the homosexual law Reform Society. Was there a change going on? I think the change was going on. I think that's [00:58:00] represented by the fact that, um that I was out at work in a major public institution. David and I both worked at Christchurch Technical Institute. It was, as it was then known, we were known as A as a couple. Uh, we were invited to social functions, work related social functions together. Uh, we had a couple of lesbian friends who, you know, we tended to pair up with and go to such things with, um but that [00:58:30] I don't know that the experience of someone on the factory floor would have been the same as that, if you know what I mean. Or someone who was who was interested in rugby rather than religion. Uh, and you know who, um was confronted with sort of locker room prejudice and and that sort of thing, um, I. I never experienced any difficulty like that. The only thing I would say is that when when [00:59:00] David became profoundly ill with motor neurone disease totally unrelated to being gay, um, there was a rumour went around polite that he had AIDS, and that was promptly scotched by our employer and by the Union but nevertheless, it was just sort of her hard around. Oh, David Pinene David Pine. But David Pyne's dying. He must have [00:59:30] AIDS. It was assumed that any gay man who was terminally ill must have AIDS. Does this matter? It was soon dealt with but dealt with by really sympathetic union and and employer. And indeed, I don't know whether it fits into this part of it. But it does in my mind. Um, uh, my employer gave me eight months leave on pay with a company car to nurse David. [01:00:00] Now, I had years of leave accumulated, so that wasn't an issue. David and I had worked there for many, many years, but nevertheless and they applied, they applied a clause in the in the contract that allowed leave for family reasons. Now it was intended to cover your child having flu and having to stay home, not eight months to nurse a gay partner. [01:00:30] And I thought that was pretty good. It's interesting you're getting that acceptance, but I guess in the same breath, we're looking at you getting charged in 1979. So obviously society wasn't all at the same speed, and indeed the police I think I may have mentioned, but the police said, you know, what do your employers make of this? Which I said my employers? No, I'm OK. [01:01:00] And subsequently John agreed to write me a character reference. My call was going to be to the chair of the politic council. I mean, you know, Yes, you're quite right. That's what I was saying. Um, I didn't think of the police in particular, but, you know, the factory floor. I really don't know what it was like for people in other in other circumstances. Uh, yeah, we had we had really good liberal leadership at Christchurch Polytechnic. It was then called [01:01:30] Christchurch Technical Institute, but yeah. So the first real big pushes towards homosexual law reform. When did that start kicking in in Christchurch? Yeah. Individuals had been involved in the in the earlier attempts, and I I was a bit disgusted when I learned that some combination of the left wing had had managed [01:02:00] to scupper. I think it was particularly the freer attempt. Um, I didn't like that even though, as I admitted, I come round to the gay liberation. I think they were right. But I didn't like it at the time, but it really just it was once Fran Wilde. You know, the once the labour government went in and wild, uh, agreed to, uh, to support the law reform, that made a difference. One thing that I don't think people are are terribly aware of outside the law Reform Society [01:02:30] committee was that, um, and Sullivan offered to to promote a, uh, homosexual law reform initiative and bearing in mind that by the time of her death, she was a born again Christian and signing everything she possibly and opposing everything of that sort. It was quite extraordinary. Um, I don't know how far down the track [01:03:00] it got, but I was aware it was probably while I was in Wellington. So somewhere early seventies that that she was she was, um, uh, willing to to take that initiative. Well, one thing we haven't talked about is, um, the investment of energy from women in the whole law reform. And I was wondering if you had any thoughts on on that, um, women in Christchurch. There was [01:03:30] There were some good people who worked hard. Uh, but by and large, it was seen as a male issue. Um, I mean, the women were naturally horrified. One of the arguments was when we started saying, You know, we want equality with with women. Lesbian acts are not a crime male. Homosexual acts should not be a crime. Some of the opponents said, Well, that's easily resolved. It's not that we'll decriminalise men. We'll criminalise [01:04:00] women. So, you know, it was it was a bit a bit tricky. Um, but women were heavily involved in the campaign for human Rights in 92 93. So not all that long. Later, Uh, I'm not conscious. None of, uh, some good women, of course, Fran leading the whole thing. But there were some good women, but they weren't, uh, at at the at the organisational level in Christchurch, which is actually quite [01:04:30] different from Wellington. I think there was a lot of women's energy in in the Wellington area. Yeah, and if you interviewed someone else, they may remember differently. Um, there were a few women in hug and and David and we had personal support from the lesbian friends that I was talking about. But they weren't they they weren't out the front. So what kind of actions were being undertaken in Christchurch to promote law reform. [01:05:00] Well, for my part, um, endless speaking to church groups and service clubs, and I've still got notes and records of the places I spoke to, J CS and so forth. Two or three of us would go. We we agreed to We had quite a little team, perhaps six of us who could go out and peers or twos or threes. Uh, so we did a lot of that, uh, David and I, uh, were interviewed by the [01:05:30] star and appeared in a item which I got over there a big publication, Uh, that was published in the Star. Um, what it's like to be gay. It was a bit of publicity, um, endless endless meetings about strategy one or two marches, though they weren't hugely subscribed. And we certainly suffered a bit of abuse as we marched down Manchester Street. Um, [01:06:00] And letter writing, letter, writing, letter writing, um, keeping track of which MP S were dickering. Which MP S were opposed. Um, and disrupting opponents meetings? Um, stuff like that. It was all on. It was very heavy stuff. So what was it like? Uh, going to a church group and going to their meeting and talking to them about homosexuality. [01:06:30] That was OK. Uh, because by and large, you were invited to a church by someone who was sympathetic to your cause. Now, that didn't mean the whole group was sympathetic to your cause, but the invitation to come from someone, So you got a bit of negative questioning, Uh, and you got the occasional person who got up and walked out? Um, but it was OK. And the person I could think of in particular that I went around with, uh, [01:07:00] he and I both had all the Bible stuff at our fingertips. Um, you know, it got a bit sort of silly and repetitive. Of course, the group you're speaking to doesn't know that you did the same thing the night before to another group, Um, pretty good sort of response we did. We did go to one Catholic based meeting where a woman who was a pharmacist had an obsession obsession about anal [01:07:30] sex and went on and on about us. But eventually the person who was facilitating the meeting sort of shut it down. She wasn't, um She wasn't being aggressively nasty, but I mean what she was saying, like anyway, so and, of course, Catholic church meetings. You see, by then we're talking AIDS, and we're talking condoms and [01:08:00] so forth. So that was there was this assumption that all we all we do is screw anyway. And what about other, uh, meetings? I mean, did you did you go and talk to anti reform meetings? Did you didn't talk to David was addressing one at a high school hall and my friend Charles and I were [01:08:30] determined to get in there and ask for equal time. And it sort of developed that they are going to call the police and have us removed. And David came out and persuaded us that it was better all round if we just quietly withdrew. So we abandoned that one, I think, actually, no. On another occasion, the police were called and we were escorted off the premises, but we didn't resist. I [01:09:00] mean, I wasn't in and, you know, throwing myself on the ground and making them like me away. But there was one at high school where, you know, it really got out of hand. That was one where we were demanding equal time and I had all my notes ready to to tell them the facts of life about Christianity in the Bible. Anyway, um, but we ended up there just shouting, abuse, equal time and and every time they tried to address the congregation [01:09:30] audience, we just shouted them down. Uh, and eventually the police came and removed us. How many pro reform people would have been with you doing something like that? A big meeting. That'd probably be 20 of us. Roughly. Did you find it scary standing up in a, um, in a meeting, that's kind of really anti anti U. So by then, you know, I'd [01:10:00] had a number of years of being out an out homosexual. I knew that they were wrong. A I can say, but I knew they were wrong. And I never feared for my safety at those meetings. I did, perhaps in one of the marches, but, um and I just felt it It was a bit embarrassing when I spotted I was registrar at the time. And so I was, uh, a registrar at the polite at the time. So I was with the [01:10:30] administrative manager, the line manager of all the non teaching staff. And it was a bit disconcerting to see one of my employees or one of my line of management at the meeting, as a member of the audience and congregation. And I had someone circulated the petition at the Polytech and I saw it. I didn't try to remove it, but I saw it and I saw that one person in particular Nice woman [01:11:00] who socialised quite a lot with David and me had signed it. And I said to Roberta, What the hell is this about? You know, you know David and me, you like us. We socialise together. I didn't realise she felt like this about it. He said, Honour, You and David are wonderful. It's all the rest. But I subsequently discovered that she was the same about Maori. So every gay person she had met was lovely and all the rest were bastards. [01:11:30] What sort of thinking is that? But there are. That was what happened in the street marches you were saying they were quite intense. Yeah, yeah, they were because you didn't get a lot of people to them. And I think there were only one or two, but coming down Manchester Street. You know, you got stuff thrown at you and abuse hurled at you and so forth, but survived [01:12:00] my experience of marches and and opposition and police, uh, was in 85 86 was nothing compared with what it had been in 1981 over the Springbok tour. I mean, there you really did feel endangered. And also, I was far more rad. I behaved more radically then. I mean, you know, I was party to lying down at intersections and all that sort of [01:12:30] thing. Do you think if it hadn't been for something like the Springbok Tour, we would have got, uh, the kind of, uh, protests that we did in law reform? Do you Do you think that it was just, uh the the the continuation of a change? Well, I wondered about that, and I thought, Oh, you know, this was our generation. We were the protesters. But then you see, uh, you know, the you you You see film footage of of, [01:13:00] um, waterfront workers during the strike. And really, what we did and survived was nothing compared with what early union movement people had put up with. Did you ever think that the homosexual law reform in 85 86 would not go through would Oh, I thought. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, it was touch and go to the night fast. And if it hadn't been again, it was George George [01:13:30] Gear, I think. Yes, I think you're right. Yeah. I think George Gere changed sides. Uh, I thought it was lost by a vote or two, so I mean, it was real jubilation. I mean, I thought we'd come back to it as indeed we eventually did on the human rights issues, but, uh, but, you know, we'd all we'd put time and money and time and money in political sweat into into the 85 86 campaign. Uh, I was very [01:14:00] proud when it went through because, you know, it was relatively radical in terms of common age of consent and such a low age of consent. Uh, that was remarkable in the western world. Really? So I was very proud of that, too. I sort of felt once again, New Zealand was leading the way in in social reform, and it's quite interesting because on one hand you've got the kind of political campaign. But on the other hand, you've also got the whole public campaign and getting people on side and saying, Well, actually, homosexuality [01:14:30] is not necessarily such a evil. Yeah, And although what was critical to law reform was the political campaign where we largely took our lead from Wellington, Um, but were invited to give feedback and so forth. So and we certainly did a lot of letter writing and campaigning among local MP S to make sure they were on the right side and to try and convert them if they weren't. But for for me, the public campaign was far more important. Really. [01:15:00] That to me was the real victory. Um, and the fact that by and large, particularly once, particularly once the human rights changes have been made because once they once they'd been made. I mean, you really you really had a defence. If your employer got snotty with you and that happened in, was it 1992 passed in 93? The campaign was sort of 92 93. [01:15:30] So the homosexual law reform bill passed part. One of it passed part two didn't in 86. Can you recall the night that it passed and what we do, Uh, I just socialising quietly. I wasn't in any of the big DOS listening to the radio. Uh, yeah, radio. Not, I suppose it was broadcast in parliament. Um, [01:16:00] breaking out the champagne, Uh, and yeah, not at that point thinking, Oh, we've still got the other bit to deal with. But because really, for me, the I was interested in law formula in human rights. But that was decriminalisation, that I had, uh, as the major goal at that at that point and afterwards, just a general feeling that that's that we've we've won. That's [01:16:30] that's good. New Zealand is now up there with the more enlightened Western countries, and, uh, this will make a lot of difference to generations to come. I do. But I think I've eventually occasionally I feel a bit sad to sure unionists feel the same way that that, uh, that the younger generation doesn't really appreciate what the fight was like for their freedom. [01:17:00] Uh, I mean, I don't really think that, but I'm just glad that they've got the freedom. But even now I think Oh, you know. But it's the same with everything really, isn't it? So for you? Did the law reform change the way you lived your life? No, not really. Um, because although there had been that experience in 79 and, you know, odd cases before and after that, really, [01:17:30] by 85. 86 uh, the police had stopped their activity at least as far as I know. They had stopped their activity. And certainly by then, if there was violence in the park, for example, they would they would pursue that and prosecute robustly prosecute um, the perpetrators. [01:18:00] So things had started to shift during the, um, at one stage, I was on a police gay community, um, cooperative group that met from time to time and raised questions. I remember the main question we we raised was with them. Um, was the whole question of [01:18:30] violence or domestic violence with same sex couples, men and women, which there must have been something that triggered it. But that was a bit of an issue at the time. And we wanted to make sure that you know that they understood that that same sex relationships had the same dynamics and so on as as straight ones. And that you know that they had an obligation to to investigate those and support the the victim and all that sort of thing. [01:19:00] So when you think now about kind of the younger generation and you see them with, uh, equality in a lot of areas, maybe not in all areas. Do you have any reflections on? Yeah, I'm just I'm just glad that the law changed and that I was part of changing it. Basically, uh, both bits of the law, By the way. I mean both the the decriminalisation and the human [01:19:30] rights, because the human rights, in practical terms, frankly, the human rights legislation is more important than the law reform than the decriminalising for the ordinary person day by day, you know, But I, I now occasionally the politic that a student who says I'm gay as far as I know, I'm the only gay in my class, and my tutor makes anti gay remarks, and I expect and I expect CPR [01:20:00] T to do something about that. And I say we certainly will, you know, and got a section on sexual orientation written into the harassment policy, that sort of thing. There was that guy, the fact that he can sleep with his boyfriend doesn't actually, I call it much difference. He probably slept with his boyfriend even if the law hadn't changed, but in class or at the institution or out in the bakery or whatever [01:20:30] makes a difference, hm.
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