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My name is Stephanie Gibson. I'm here with Lynette Townsend and we're two history curators at Papa. And a big part of our work is collecting the history of New Zealand and people's stories told through their objects. And, uh, we're always looking for really compelling, historically significant material that can tell those stories. One of our focuses is on, um, a diversity of New Zealand history. So we're always looking for, um, objects that can tell, um, [00:00:30] history from different perspectives from different groups in the community. Um, and just so that we can get a really diverse range of stories and experiences. And so where are we standing now? Right now, we're in the big history store, and we call it the Big History Store because it's got large, uh, examples of furniture from the 19th century and 20th centuries. And we also have lots of technology here, uh, printing and typewriters and whatnot and, uh, lots of big flash objects like wallpaper [00:01:00] and posters. So very diverse. It's a huge store, and a lot of it is created up for earthquake mitigation. And there seems to be quite a of air conditioning. Is that right? Yeah, it's all really, um, air, air conditioned, controlled. So the temperature is always, um, 21 degrees plus or minus one or two degrees, and the humidity is always the same as well, so that that's the optimum conditions to keep the objects in perfect condition. And and so why is that? Why, at that temperature? Uh, because it's dry [00:01:30] and mild, so it's not too dry, so you don't want the wood to crack in your furniture. But if you have it moist, then you have other problems come in like mould mould spores. So it's got to keep it dry, airy and mild is the best in terms of preservation for delicate materials. It's all about, um, keeping things stable and constant so you don't want any fluctuations. So September this year is Queer History Month, and we're looking at a variety [00:02:00] of collecting institutions and the the kind of rainbow materials they have in their collections. Can you tell me what's in the tapa collection? In terms of rainbow material? Well, it's really diverse. We have a lot of textile elements, so dress and fashion, uh, some of it's very flamboyant from our drag queen and transgender community uh, we also have a lot of sort of activist objects. So t-shirts that are emblazoned with identity politics. Uh, we have placards, posters from, uh, the homosexual [00:02:30] Law Reform movement. And we also keep collecting material that's around activism, especially things like, uh, a querying the night or querying the schools. Um, and we also collect, uh, examples of popular culture like the top twins. For example, one of the, um, sets of objects that we've collected or been doing some work on recently is the, um, collage panels that were in the Evergreen Coffee lounge. And they were made by Chris, Um, [00:03:00] and so they there's 34 35 panels that make up that collection. So how do these objects come into the collection? Well, quite often, they are mainly donated. Um, and quite a lot of the objects that we've collected in recent years have come about. Um, when we've done public events, Steph and I have done, um, a few talks recently, and after that, people have come forward with various objects that they've got Amazon's, um, softball. [00:03:30] Um, collection came in through that. That was after we'd done the Asia Pacific Out games there was, of course, you know, huge. Um, a lot of events here, and Steph and I did a public talk, and we we actually asked people what? Where, where did they see the gaps in the collection? What do we need? And a couple of people came forward and said Amazon's would be really great to collect. And from that we did a bit of research and managed to locate, um, some of the old uniforms. I imagine the research element must be quite large. I'm thinking, [00:04:00] like in terms of these panels from the Evergreen Cafe, where you've got, like, hundreds of photos, they're not necessarily identified, are they? In terms of the people in them? Well, that's been a big part of the research is, um, to identify people, the places and the stories around them. And I, um, we've made a start on it. Um, and we've, um, got some really great family stories and stories from people that knew Chrissy friends and acquaintances of hers. Um, but I imagine that this will be a project that will go on for years [00:04:30] and years because the more you research, the more you realise that the the depth and the, um the the more avenues there are to kind of carry on researching. And then how do you document that new information. So it all gets documented on our database. So, um, some some of the information is just kept behind the scenes and that will be the sort of for future researchers. But we've been trying to write it up as narrative stories and then attach, um, the the related, um, collages and other [00:05:00] objects that help to sort of enrich the story. What are some of the other things that you've collected? So we've collected, uh, around other aspects of, uh, GL BT life. That might not be so obvious. So in sport as we mentioned before, but also as you, uh, very kindly helped us with is, uh, collecting around the out games, the Asia Pacific Out games, which is a really exciting moment here in New Zealand in 2011, and we managed to collect [00:05:30] a huge body of material so that that really grew our collections in quite a different direction. So we're always looking in new ways to collect and, uh, collect different experiences of being GL BT. I in New Zealand. One of the other big collections that we've got is, um, from Carmen. Um, and we, um we've collected, um, one, several times around Carmen. So some items were things that Carmen herself donated. We've purchased items as well, and [00:06:00] then after she passed away, we collected a whole range of objects as well. Um, so that's actually a really rich and diverse and varied collection. Now, um oh, so sorry. The, uh, the Pacific and art collections also have collected material from the GL BT community. Uh, for example, uh, the Pacific Cultures collection has some wonderful examples of, uh, clothing and design. So is it the collection is happening right across the organisation. [00:06:30] An interesting thing with Carmen is that in, in, in the recent kind of media coverage of her traffic lights in mall, um, she's been referred to in the press as a drag queen. And I know, um, in some institutions, she's referred to as a drag queen. Others are transgender. How do you categorise people's sexuality and gender identity? It's really tricky because we're using AAA Getty Museum thesaurus from America. So we're, uh, technically speaking, our database [00:07:00] uses these international classification systems. And they don't have all these new answers around identity and sexuality and orientation. They have a few. They have broad ones like homosexuality, but they don't have transgender, for example, as a category. So we have to embed those categories in different parts of the database and on our and our, um, information the way we deliver it online. We need to write, write that up and make it really visible online. But [00:07:30] it's not actually always in the classification system and behind the scenes. The other thing is that it's really important for us to keep connecting with communities that where those objects belong to and the people who those objects belong to. And I think because I think the naming or the names that people use changes, and it has changed so much over time, and we try to keep in touch with that, Um and I think, and we're really open to kind of re re revising how we've kind of written things up [00:08:00] and named things. So it's it's you know, I think even if something's been written up in a certain way now, then we we're really open to kind of changing that and taking on advice. So how does one change? Say, like the Getty thesaurus? How does one say? Actually, we want transgender in the thesaurus. Uh, well, we would need to work with our digital team here and ask them to champion it for us. And we have asked We just need to chase it up. So we just need to make it an institutional [00:08:30] priority, because I think every change costs money. Basically, it's probably a financial decision as well. And also the with their international purview, uh, will be having their own discussions around issues like this, I suspect. So we just need to get become part of those conversations or drive the conversation. Another item over here is, uh, I signed 27 times. What does that refer to? So this is from the homosexual law reform campaign in 1985 which got very, very vicious and heated. [00:09:00] And, uh, the the the people that were against homosexual law reform, uh, ran a huge petition. Well, they said it was huge. They said they had so many signatures and reality they didn't. They had, um, repeat signatures. They had signatures from Children, people that didn't have enough mental capacity to sign, so their petition was a bit of a lie. And when it was delivered to Parliament, the day it was delivered was a huge protest rally. Um, in reaction to it. And, [00:09:30] uh, people for the reform held up some placards, and one of them said, I signed 27 times, So it's a It's a very ironic placard, but it was a very successful placard and was picked up by the news media at the time, and it's become quite resonant, and it's just come into the collection this year. So we're really excited that it survived all this time, and I think you were showing me earlier how it's not only what's on the front of the placard, but it's also what's kind of underneath it and around it. Yeah, well, the great thing is that a lot of activists, of course, are active on lots of [00:10:00] fronts. So around in 1985 of course, there was. The Springbok tour issue came up again where, um, the All Blacks wanted to go to South Africa. And of course, in 1981 we'd had the terrible, uh, clashes here in New Zealand soil. So in 1985 there were more protests around, uh, rugby and apartheid. And so, the, uh, the guy who young, who made the, uh, placard for the homosexual law reform protest recycled anti Springbok tour posters and painted on the backs of them. So it's a lovely combination hybrid [00:10:30] object around about activism in the 19 eighties in New Zealand. One of the things I think of when I look at the sign is that it was constructed for that purpose in 85 86 and maybe it was never intended to be here 30 years later. How do you preserve conserve this? Yeah, well, often a lot of kind of protest material is very ephemeral, and people never imagine that it's going to last. And, um so sometimes it's a bit of luck that things survive, um, particularly, [00:11:00] you know, posters and things like this placard. But, um, we do a lot of proactive collecting as well. So we try and collect around, um, things that are happening at the time so that we can step particularly, does a lot of collecting of posters and looking out for, um, protest material of of now so that we can kind of keep those for the future once it's in here. How how do you How do you look after it? Oh, well, it's about It's partly to do with the environment, keeping it in optimum conditions. [00:11:30] So acid free boxing and tissue making sure the environment's really stable and there's no moisture. So you know, you can imagine, um, something like the placard would could be in somebody's garage, and it would get wet and mouldy and just be become destroyed over time. So here it can just stay in perfect condition and can last, you know, hundreds of years. Hopefully, I mean, the thing to to keep in mind is that these objects we have here are just the remnant of the remnant of the remnant. So over the [00:12:00] years, uh, objects get recycled, they get thrown out, they get damaged. And we're just getting just the few surviving remnants, often from people's homes and collections. And we find that we're often run by the families of activists who have passed away, and the families will ring us in a panic and say, Look, we've got rooms full of stuff from our parents you know they were leading activists. What do we do with all this stuff? And you've got a week to pack up the house. So you know, they're quite terrifying those phone calls, because you you'll go. You'll go to that house and you'll see [00:12:30] the most amazing rich record of protest history. And you know, you can only take a fraction of it. So that's a real privilege when families ring you and they they know they've got important stuff, and they're desperate to find a good home for it and honour their their family members who were out there on the front lines. So when you can only take a fraction of the material offered, what are the things that what goes through your mind in terms of How do you How do you choose? Well, it's a really complex. It's like a matrix of significance that you bring together and you do [00:13:00] it with your colleagues. You do it as a team because not one person can ever understand everything. So you bring all your knowledge together and all your experience, and you look at the significance of the moment, what the object represents. Um, it's It's it's it's qualities, its aesthetic qualities or not. You know, ugly objects that have great history, too. So it's not always about, um, how good does it look? It's about what it's saying and where it was and who held it and who made it and and did it change? Things did change [00:13:30] anybody's life, you know? I mean, we've got a great banner from the 1981 and 1985 Springbok tour protests, and it's got egg on it because somebody threw eggs at it and, you know, we can preserve that. We can actually preserve the egg stone. You know, it's quite visceral. Some of the things that are the, um, the hardest for us to deal with the things like glue, guns and stuff that have been has been glue gun together and cello tape. And, um, you know, um, staples that have got rust on them and things like that. But we do have experts [00:14:00] here at Papa that can deal with it. Our, um, our conservatives can kind of make recommendations and kind of treat things so that we can kind of yeah, so they'll still last the test of time. So activism is kind of one stream in terms of what you're collecting. Are there other kind of areas in terms of rainbow communities that you're interested in? Well, uh, we've got the amazing New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. But, I mean, also, that can be seen as an activist, uh, project [00:14:30] as well. Uh, we have fashion. We've got quite a lot of, um items that relate to performance. So, um, Frank L was one person who, um, or one group of collection items that we got in quite early on. Um, so yeah, and that kind of transgender kind of performance where that's, um, that's the sort of thing that comes in quite commonly because it's visually very rich and people think to save it. And it kind of it's a sort of object that kind of lasts, [00:15:00] Um, and and but, you know, um, also, um, we've collected around Paul Jen and, um, the the fairy stories, um, shows that were on at bats theatre, and we managed to, um, get a couple of costumes as well after he passed away. Um, what else have we got? We've got, um, some devotion dance material. We're really keen to document those those wonderful, uh, very public parties in the eighties and nineties. Oh, sorry. After the homosexual law reform [00:15:30] in 86 they all flowering of visibility and excitement in the nineties with, uh, devotion and hero in Wellington and Auckland. Massive big public events. And so we've got some devotion material and a little bit of hero material. But we're keen for more. We've got some fun little dolls of the top twins. So they are, um, two knitted dolls. So one of them is camp leader and camp mother, and they were, um, donated to us by, I think, Probably a fan. Yeah. Um, [00:16:00] we also have, um this is a bit of a tangential thing, but we have a. Over the last few years, we've brought in a really large contraceptive collection which has a lot of safe sex, condoms and messaging, which is just brilliant. And we managed to put some of that on display, and these are products that were made or or put together by the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, and they are targeted at gay and bisexual men. And there's some really powerful imagery and messaging in that material. Another group of objects relate to Michael Mata, and that's an interesting [00:16:30] set because they weren't necessarily, um, collected because of the gay story. But it was more like a fashion history, kind of, um, perspective. But, um, I think that's another sort of line of inquiry. That's sort of quite interesting reading across the collections and kind of exploring and exposing or discovering the the gay stories that might be, um, hidden within our collections. Yeah, let's talk about hidden collections and I mean, not everyone is is out. [00:17:00] Um, I'm thinking of, like, creators or artists. I mean, do you have any kind of hidden histories that you're aware of? We're aware of quite a few. Uh, we haven't surfaced them yet because we haven't done a big research project in this regard, but we're really keen. I think the thing about objects is they can be read and reread in so many different ways, and, um, and we're always looking for new ways that you can kind of, um, you tell a story around an object, [00:17:30] and that's kind of that's fundamental to what we do. So we collect objects. There can be an initial kind of history that we really know about it. But quite often research would, um, uncover all the other kind of stories around it as well. And also, I guess the reverse can happen, too. You can take objects that people might think at GL BT objects only, but actually put them into their full historical context, like the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt, for example, that, you know AIDS and HIV affect everybody. Can we have a look [00:18:00] at the quote? So we're just going to these amazing big roller cabinets. We call them Compact storage, and it means we can get lots of objects into a smaller space. We'll just, um I'll just roll a see. It's quite a big, big metal cabinet, and it's quite deep, probably about Oh, it's about 20 metres deep, a couple of metres wide, and there's a big manual handle that I've got to turn to get into these big, huge [00:18:30] bays. We call them anyway. The New Zealand, as Royal quilt is so large because they're 16, 16 blocks each block is four by four metres. It's actually really, really large, and we've managed to fold them down into AAA panel size, so each block is made up of eight panels and a panel is the size of an American grave, so that, hopefully will sort of paint you a picture. And we've managed to [00:19:00] fold the quilts into their panel size. So it's an eighth. They're right at an eighth of the original size, and they're still really large. And they look like shelves and shelves and shelves of slim mattresses is what you it sort of looks like. But each quilt has been lovingly conserved, folded up carefully and put into these beautiful calico wrappers with bow ties so they're beautifully looked after. It's like it's like the best linen cupboard, sort of that you can think of. And, um, they're all numbered [00:19:30] and they've all been beautifully photographed and they're all online. And, uh, we are always doing a little bit of research into them to improve our records. This is such a critical moment in, uh, it was global history in in human health history in, uh, political history when you think of, um, uh, GL BT rights at that time when AIDS hit the world, they're an incredible record, and they're also amazing record of personal histories and family histories. They're incredibly emotional. They still make people [00:20:00] weep. They still make people remember, and they also still remind us to be vigilant. That, uh, we still have IV and a I in the world. So they are very powerful for powerful educational tools, um, historical information that's embedded in them. They're really rich. Sometimes they they can be beautiful works of craft. They can be really rough as guts. And as Lynette mentions, there's a lot of glue gun, a lot of a lot of glitter, a lot of fabric paint, some scary stuff going on. But they're a real [00:20:30] record of their times, but it's like, you know, it's the thing about preserving objects is there's a really special kind of history that you can tell around objects. There's nothing else where you can have that direct, tangible link back to a moment in time and the people that made that thing. So that's why um, for us, objects are really rich and powerful, and I think they do evoke emotion where other things don't necessarily bring out. Um, that same kind of, um, emotional response to history. [00:21:00] And also the uh eight Memorial Court is a living memorial. We're still used. You know it's still used. If that's the right word, it still comes out for candlelight ceremonies. It still resonates with people. So it has a life. It still actually has a life. Even though it's in a museum, it still has a life. How then, do people, uh, access not only, say, the quilt, but also the other objects you've talked about? Well, the initial thing is, everything we have in the collection is on our collections online. So we try. And when objects come in, we try and [00:21:30] photograph them straight away and write up the history around them so people can always access them straight away online. But also, um, we're more than happy to show our collections to the um, to anybody in the general public. It's just a matter of kind of making an appointment and coming in and and then we're really happy to show them and share our collections with people in that way. And then, of course, we're always looking for great opportunities to have, um, objects out in exhibitions on the floor so people can enjoy them in that way, too. Yeah, and, uh, if [00:22:00] there's a special community event, and if it's logistically possible, then we try and be present in an event. So, for example, with the candlelight memorial at, uh, over the last couple of years, we've been able to bring out the quilts, so there's lots of different ways that we can provide access. And so you're open for people to come forward and say, um, have you thought about this idea in terms of like, an exhibition or so, as you can imagine, gets a lot of a lot of really great suggestions. And they are. They're always canvassed in the organisation. [00:22:30] We discuss them all, and it just depends on the upcoming programming how we can fit things in. But, uh, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of huge interest groups, both externally and internally, and we've got to sort of negotiate and navigate them all to see what actually actually ends up in our exhibitions. And how can communities kind of, uh, help with your research in terms of feeding into, you know, talking about the say, the evergreen photos? Um, well, we've been asking people to come forward and talk about the evergreen photos. [00:23:00] And, um so I've been running workshops, and we've We've done a few workshops where we've sort of, um, interviewed people, and, um, and then all that information has been kind of stored, um, digitally. Um, but yeah. So we're really happy when people come forward and they've got their own story to tell around objects. Um, yeah. So with the evergreen as well, I've got about another five. Interviews sort of lined up around that. And, um, yeah, I think, um, it'll be ongoing for years and years, [00:23:30] and hopefully because it's just so rich. I think there's kind of those Touchstone moments and and kind of LGBTI history, Um, the big stories. But then there's just tonnes and tonnes of those lovely personal stories associated with them as well. And yeah, So I've been interviewing people, um, transcribing those interviews and then writing them up into narratives, um, and putting it up online. And we really love working with communities. Uh, and we we love to co co curate with people [00:24:00] in effect, So we really rely on people's expertise out in the community. We don't know everything. We we only know a fraction. So it's really vital for us that we have good relationships with people in the community and that we can be like a conduit to the national collection. So how do we get in contact with you? So you can either go straight for Lynette and I or any history curator, but you could either just ring the general number or go through the inquiries or, um, ramp up inquiries and ask for our email addresses. But if you, um put [00:24:30] put attention history curators in your byline, that will get to us. And I've got a special email set up for the Evergreen Project called Um Evergreen at te papa dot gov dot NZ. Sounds like an amazing job. Well, it's in incredibly privileged. Um, you know, I feel really, really lucky to be able to kind of work with these objects and then connect with communities. It's all all about, um, these objects are really there for [00:25:00] the people of New Zealand. Um, and that's what we That's what we're really interested in preserving them for, you know, for the history of New Zealand people, and then, um allowing access or, you know, encouraging access and continually building up those stories around objects. We really want that to happen. Do you have favourite, um, rainbow objects? That's a good question. Uh, people always respond well to the top twin dolls. It's [00:25:30] funny. They people absolutely love knitted dolls that represent real people, and people love the top twins. And I think that they've been really nice objects to to have fun with. But I mean, personally, I love the activist objects because I just think the chances of survival are are so slim and I. I know it's probably a bit of a sad reflection on society, but I do love the queer the night poster, which only came out a couple of years ago. It was posted up on the streets and I think it happened the same year as the Marriage Equality Law was passed so great [00:26:00] jubilation and and happiness over finally achieving marriage equality. But in the same year, there was an activist group that felt it needed to make a have a protest march around the danger and lack of safety at night for people for the the Rainbow community. And I think I thought that was really sad and telling in the same year you could have those extremes that there are still concerns and worries around safety and acceptance. Um, I really love the Eva Green coffee lunch, um, [00:26:30] panels. Because I've been working so closely with them and I've started to realise the more I more research we do on them, the richer they are. But I also really like some of the, um, the headdresses. You know, Carmen's headdresses that are on display at the moment, but also frank Luns headdress that he, you know, lovingly handmade out of bits and bobs that he found and crafted together. And it was something that he wore on stage and performed in, so I really like that.
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