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Hello. How are you today? I'm great. Thank you. All the better for having your presence in my office, Ben. Thank you. So you're Marion Street? Marion Street, a member of Parliament. Um, in my seventh year. So is that like, second term or third? Third term? Yeah, we've got three year terms, So this is my third term as a member of parliament. So, um, where are you from? Uh, born in New Plymouth originally. But, um, spent most of my adult [00:00:30] life in Auckland 27 years or so in Auckland, Uh, and then moved to Wellington because of my job. And now I'm I I'm I go between Nelson and Wellington now, so I work out of Nelson mostly. Where's your, like, MP base? Where? Nelson Nelson as my as my MP base. Um, this is my wellington office, obviously. Um, but, um, Nelson is where I'm based as a list MP and I've been there [00:01:00] for the last five years. So, um, I lived there and and work there. So why did you want to go into politics? Um, I've I don't recall a time when I wasn't in politics. Oh, yes, I do. Um, when I was at university. I wasn't very politically, um, a tune. I was very active and all sorts of other things, but not, uh, not politics. And, um, it was, um, towards the end of the seventies, when my political awareness started to sharpen [00:01:30] up. So I was 20 early twenties at that point, and, um and then I started to become aware, painfully aware of of injustice, really around me and inequity, Um, particularly as a woman. But, um, And then, increasingly, as I understood my own sexuality, um, around, uh, around gay politics as well. What was it like when you found out that you were becoming an MP? Oh, [00:02:00] it was something that wasn't a surprise to me. I've been very involved in politics for a long time. By then, I'd been the president of the Labour Party in the 19 nineties, and I'd stood down from that because my partner and I at the time, uh, had a daughter who was, um, just about to start school. And I wanted to be out of the public eye, uh, before she started school. So we, um I [00:02:30] waited, um, 10 years until until my daughter was old enough to contribute to the decision and, um, and came into Parliament when she was 15. So she's, uh, she's all grown up, but she has grown up with politics as well. Is she going to be in politics when she's older? Well, she's just finished her degree in majoring in political studies, so something's rubbed off. But, uh, I don't know that she'll want to be an MP, but she's very interested in [00:03:00] policy work. How's it? How has being a MP changed? You? Um, you have to get used to, um, the intrusion, the public intrusion on your life. So there isn't much that's private. I try never to do interviews in my home, uh, in order to protect that area so that, um, people can't comment on the kind of house I have, and it's just a level of self protection [00:03:30] that's important. And, um, I think because I'm I'm usually a very sociable and domestic person, and I like to have people to dinner, for example, at my house, I the number of times in a year I can do that is severely restricted because of my workload, and, um and so it's a real treat for me when I can. I can get some friends I really love around to dinner. And [00:04:00] and that's, um that's a great treat for me, but I don't do it as often as I'd like to. So that kind of intrusion, the workload intrusion on private life and, um, the fact that, um, you're never off duty as an MP, you're never off duty. There's always something happening. It's not just that. It's wherever you are. You are an MP. So you can't. Um, [00:04:30] uh, it it you have to leave the country to get any sort of anonymity. Um, and And I don't get to do that very often. Occasional holiday. Um uh, I. I had one. I had one last year and, well, beginning of this year overseas, uh, over Christmas, and it was fantastic. Just walking around and and knowing that nobody knew who you were was [00:05:00] fantastic. Yeah, Yeah, it was great. I did happen to run into people I knew because I was in London. So you do tend to run into New Zealanders there. Um, but, um but it was It was great. It was really good. So what is the Rainbow Room. The rainbow room is a room that, um as some of us rainbow MP S decided would be, um, a good thing to have in parliament. We've got a Maori Affairs Select Committee [00:05:30] room. We and that has been around for a very long time. There's a very old Maori Affairs Select Committee room, and the one I took you to was the newer one. Um, but that that's been around for a very long time. In fact, the old one is called Native Affairs. That's how old it was. So, um, there's a Pacifica Pacific Island. Uh uh, select committee room. There was a women's one which some of my colleagues in the eighties agitated to to have. And that's got photos of, [00:06:00] uh, every woman MP that's ever been here. Um, around the walls. Um, I don't know whether they've updated it recently. I haven't been in to have a look, so I should go, and I know, I know. I know what it was. It happened in the nineties because it was for the 100th anniversary of women's suffrage. Um, that that came about. And I think they stopped the photos at 1993 so I don't think there's been any photos added since since then. That's [00:06:30] what I remember now. Yeah. Um and so some of us thought it was high time after the homosexual law reform. Uh, in the 19 eighties, it was time to get a a rainbow room because we had a number of, uh, rainbow MP S, and, um and so we agitated. They were all in the Labour Party at that time. I wasn't in parliament, um, [00:07:00] as that movement started. Oh, gosh, no. Perhaps I was because I was there for the, um yeah, so it must have been after 2005, So by then, we I mean, we had Tim Barnett. Um, Chris Carter. We had, um, uh, Georgina by as the first transgender, uh, MP in the world, actually, Um, so they were, uh they were, [00:07:30] uh, all labour Charles Me, Grant Robertson. Now, um, Louisa Wall. So we've We've got a bit of a history of gay MP S in the Labour Party. And, um, and while Tim and Georgina and Chris are no longer MP S, um, we've still got got, uh, four of us in in the house. Um, now, uh, including, [00:08:00] um, Kevin Hague as well for the Green Party. And Jan Logie just joined. So that's three lesbian MP S now. So for a long time, I was the only lesbian MP in the house, and, um, was certainly the first out one. but, um, before that, of course, there was Marilyn Waring in the in the 19, uh, eighties, and that was a different era, different time. Uh, and it was [00:08:30] much more difficult for her to be out, Uh, at that time. So, uh, now we've the national Party has also got one gay MP Chris, who's the minister of arts, culture and Heritage and treaty settlements. And, um uh, um he's not quite as keen on advocating gay positions as as the rest of us are, in fact, just voted against the first reading of [00:09:00] the marriage equality bill. But there is that you'd have to ask him. I have no idea. I can't work it out. Are there other LGBTI Q politicians from the past that you admire? Oh, yes. I think Mari wearing did, um uh uh did a very good job in lots of ways, I think, uh, while many people knew she was gay. She she wasn't out publicly And Rob Rob [00:09:30] Muldoon, the prime minister at the time who was a tyrannical sort of a leader, used that against her and, uh, and made her life quite miserable. I mean, she was in his caucus, and, uh, and he made her life quite miserable in that regard. But we're long past. We're long past that, um, that stage where homosexuality is an accusation, Uh, it's not anymore. And, um and we are much more part of the wallpaper, [00:10:00] um, than we ever used to be. So I think those who have gone before me like Chris and Tim and Georgina have all been wonderful Trailblazers. What's it like being a lesbian in Parliament? Um, it's kind of unnoticeable. Really. Um, it's, um um I'm proud to be out and proud to, um, defend gay issues. [00:10:30] Um, and to represent them, um, my portfolio, my major portfolio is health. And I'm absolutely, uh, preoccupied with that where there are health issues that affect our queer communities. Then I'll advocate for those just recently, I wrote to Tony Ryan asking him about what moves have been made since they've been in government to improve access [00:11:00] to health care. Appropriate access to health care for transgender people. So I'm just waiting for the reply on that. Um, um, So I'm I'm happy to advance those issues, uh, within and outside of my portfolio. Certainly. If they come up, people would expect me to, uh, to advance those issues. And I do. So, um, apart from that, um, um, we're so normal that it's, um, not normalised, [00:11:30] um, that it's kind of not an issue on a day to day basis. It's only an issue as things come up. So I don't experience any discrimination. Um, the any novelty value has long since worn off. And there's certainly no, um, possibility that anybody could use it as a weapon against me because I've disarmed them on that front. Going to, um, talking about health. Um, [00:12:00] my mom's a nurse. Yeah. Um, that's really interesting because one of the questions I asked of of Tony Ryle was relating to the appropriate provision of health care and the mental health and safety of transgender prisoners. So I'll ask what I'll I'll be interested to see what he comes back with on that because I think It's a real issue because a lot of our transgender community, uh, end up in prison for one reason or another. And, um, [00:12:30] getting them put in the right prison is a hassle to start with and then getting them appropriate. Uh, appropriate care. Health care is, uh, is a real issue as well, and they are seriously at risk in prison. So I do have real concerns for them on, um, is it legal to give donate blood if you're a homosexual? No, Uh, a homosexual man. No. It seems to be all [00:13:00] right for women. Um, but no, there is a, um there is a prohibition. It's not a it's not a law, but it is, um, a prohibition that the New Zealand blood service, uh, still applies, uh, to gay men. Um, and just as recently as last year, we had in front of the Health Select Committee, we had the New Zealand blood service come up for financial review. And so I asked them about this very point, and I said, OK, [00:13:30] where are you up to? With dropping the blanket discrimination now that we've got, um, screening processes for, uh, for blood and and all blood now screened for HIV. Um, why do you stop? Stop gay men giving, uh, giving blood. And they still maintain that, Uh, it's a high risk group. Um, and the World Health Organisation standards [00:14:00] are such that this, um, blanket discrimination, um, applies in numbers of countries and and until such time as that is relaxed internationally or they don't feel they want to lead the way on that. Is there any way that parliament can actually intervene by that? By continuing to press the point? Um, and saying and certainly, um, if I were health [00:14:30] Minister, I would be keen to review that. I'm sure it can be done by regulation. It could certainly be done, but I would do it under advice. But it seems to me that given the the increasing prevalence of HIV in the heterosexual community, um, uh, it is still, um, a precautionary measure. Uh, that is used to that that discriminates against, [00:15:00] uh, against gay men. And, um and I think, um, that the the emergence, particularly through refugee communities and others of HIV and the heterosexual community, begins to erode the rationale for the discrimination against, uh against gay men. However, it is still true that gay men are a high risk, a higher risk [00:15:30] population. That why, um, a lot of people try not to, um, come out as their sexuality when they give donate blood. Well, I don't think they should. They should, um, They shouldn't conceal their sexuality. Um, uh, if they, uh if they know they're not at risk, and they they're absolutely certain they're not at risk. Um, then certainly they are being discriminated [00:16:00] against. Um, but that issue needs to be dealt with properly and and by by regulation and by agreement. So what's it like being a woman in parliament? Oh, uh, the over the last, I suppose, two decades or well, three decades now, I think, um, we have trained the men, [00:16:30] and we're getting a different breed of male MP coming through, which is great. Oh, well, you know, they they tend to be married to modern women, and they got to get with the programme. Um, the dinosaurs who who, um, would call you girly, um, have mainly died off. Um, nobody uses that kind of language now. [00:17:00] They used to, and you used to be put down for being a woman, but long before I came into Parliament. But it was prevalent in the sixties and seventies and eighties, and, um, but with a huge influx, I have to say of Labour women. And in 1984 with the fourth Labour Government came in. We had a huge influx of of women who were all stroppy and didn't put up with any of that crap. And so the men were trained fairly quickly. How did you cope with [00:17:30] the, um, with the anti homosexual statements in the debate, especially with same sex marriage? Oh, they were nowhere near as as vile or as hostile as the whole campaign for homosexual law reform in the eighties. So we've morphed with a evolved we've grown up and and what's left opposing us is a little, um, radical, usually religious [00:18:00] rump that will never be persuaded anyway. But they are so much in the minority now that really and truly they don't they shouldn't bother anybody. It was not like that in the eighties, and people were vilified, and it took a lot of courage for people to come out. These days, it's not a matter of courage. It's simply a matter of honesty.
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