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I was, uh, born in in the Waikato, and I went to school there and in and finally, uh, for my last couple of years of high school to the Waikato diocese in school. I'd always wanted to be a a physical education instructor, was what we called them in those days. Uh, but I was advised in my [00:00:30] last year of school that I ought to have some other ideas. I came to Victoria University thinking that I would do a coot degree in law and languages and become a diplomat. Um, which anybody who knows me would think Hilarious. Um, because I don't have many diplomatic bones in my body. And, uh, so I started, um the [00:01:00] the the degree and just as a kind of 1/4 paper, I taught political science, and I just fell in love with it, and everything else was boring. They always had a very strong interest in politics. I can remember the New Zealand Herald at age six, the day of the nod, my black budget, for example, because I used to sit on the floor and pick out all the words I knew. And my parents and others tell me I always was asking questions [00:01:30] that were actually political questions, even if I didn't understand them to be that. So I began the the, uh, political science. By the second year, they were offering international politics as well as the New Zealand politics. So I was gradually being taken up by this, uh, focus dropped out of law, uh, dropped the languages, stayed with politics all the way through. But at that point, [00:02:00] I also picked up music, which was my real passion, my real love. And I worked out, of course, that if I could enrol in performance papers that it was very much cheaper than paying for private lessons. So after four years, I had an honours degree in in politics, and I went to London to study music with Margaret Field. Uh, and when I ran out of money, I came [00:02:30] back to New Zealand reenrolled in music. I was now going to finish an undergraduate music degree. Alan Robinson, who'd been, uh, I teacher of mine at Victoria University, called me and said that there was a part time position available in the research unit and what was in the parliamentary opposition. I was working 20 [00:03:00] hours a week helping to install the new direct toll dialling system in stout street with my little hard hat and my, uh, pliers in my, uh, soldering iron. Because I could do that almost at any hour from Monday to Saturday and they didn't care as long as you did your 20 hours and green met Green and Red Met red, you know, and I used to [00:03:30] just sort of sing the A in my head or whatever. It was nice, mindless occupation while the music was going on in my head. And, uh, Alan said he didn't really like his students doing that and that this position was available and he wanted me to go and apply for it. So I did. And I got the position and I was appointed, uh, to do research on housing, fishing and women. [00:04:00] So I was working, um, in parliament buildings during a period when the National Party had had no women members of Parliament at all. From 1972 to 75 I was active in the women's electoral lobby. 1975 was the first international women's year. Uh, so there was a a a great energy around [00:04:30] feminist politics at that particular time, and both George Gear and Sir Keith Holyoak encouraged me to put my name in for the seat of Raglan. It was going to be the last safe seat where the candidate was chosen for the 1975 election. National had other women candidates, but not in seats that they thought they had a chance of winning. Doug Carter was retiring. [00:05:00] It was my old hometown. My dad, my granddad, my great granddad had all come from that particular part of the country. So I stuck my name in and really didn't think I had a chance. Um, but of course, things turned out very differently. Had you had any other involvement with the National Party Prior to [00:05:30] this one day when I was every day when I was a student, I used to go up. First thing I did was go into the Rank and Brown library and read the newspaper, and one morning I went in there, and the lead story was about Kirk's reaction to Ben Young's signal that he was going to introduce a homosexual law amendment bill, and Kirk said that he would totally [00:06:00] oppose it, that it was unnatural and abnormal. I didn't read any of the rest of the paper. I stood up, I walked down to the centre of town and I joined the national party. So that was my That's what provoked me. The Kirk response to Vin's private members. Bill. Uh, so no, that was you know, that was an isolated incident that just set out there. I remember I used all my weekend cleaning money [00:06:30] to pay. Uh, but I was just so angry and, you know, it was a a kind of a something to do to get rid of the anger. Can you explain to me where that anger came from? First of all, um, there was there was still terrible prejudice and discrimination and stigma. Um, I certainly wasn't someone who walked around, you know, [00:07:00] waving a flag, saying I was gay. I loved a gay life, but I It was, you know, there was still so much intolerance. But at least for women, we weren't illegal, you know? And I had very large numbers of male friends who feared for their jobs, who feared being attacked in the evening, who feared all kinds of things. And it just seemed to me that Kirk was giving was feeding the fire, you know, with his statements. [00:07:30] And I was very contemptuous of them. I think any of us who were alive and that at that time know what that period was like. So what was your journey with, uh, homosexuality prior to that point? Oh, well, nothing really. Just sort of, um, closeted one partner. When did you realise that you were attracted to the same sex? Oh, well, I, I guess I realised it. Because what [00:08:00] what boys were for was to play tennis with and rugby. And, you know, cricket. They were great because, you know, a lot of girls didn't kind of get out there and do that kind of stuff. So boys were my playmates. I had no interest in them, really. Other than that, I don't think I I had any came to any kind of great self consciousness. Probably until I came to university. [00:08:30] Um, I knew I was conscious then that I was attracted to women, not to men. Yeah, and there were I mean, there were people you could actually see them there. I mean, in retrospect, when I think about growing up in. Of course, we were all there. You know, Um uh, but it wasn't something you talked about. And I think because in the [00:09:00] especially the early seventies, with the wonderful energy of the women's movement at that time, finally there was music, lyrics, poetry, books, fiction and particularly at university. You know, you could find it. And I pretty much hadn't been aware that even that was out there, so that was great, you know? You know, I had some words. [00:09:30] Did you ever find that it was, uh, a dilemma within yourself? Um, this the same sex attraction? Well, no, it's just obvious it wasn't difficult. You know, I thought that the rest of the world found it difficult, but I didn't find it difficult. That seemed to me to be the rest of the world's problem. Except, you know, of course, once we were in public spaces, it wasn't. It was our problem. And, um, and the Kirk reaction would just typified it. And I guess you know, they weren't at the time. I was, [00:10:00] um uh, I belong to the congregation of Saint Peter's and Willis Street. We had a very university congregation. Um, it was a highly active church. Godfrey Wilson. Bob Scott was the, uh, was also there. Um, so you know, all of a sudden there was, you know, he was a man of the cloth who was gay. You know, obviously, um, they, uh, people like Jack [00:10:30] Shell and others, um, used to attend the the the, uh, the the first group of people in New Zealand who picked up the WOLFENDEN. Report and began pressure for change in the criminal law who weren't gay, actually, um, they attended that church. There were always pamphlets at the back of the church about homosexual law reform, just like they were [00:11:00] about apartheid in South Africa. And, you know, a range of other really important issues. So there was some, you know, there was a space I went to Where, uh, there was support. Did you ever discuss the same sex attraction with your family with your parents? No. No, not at all. I know that when I was outed, that gave many other people the opportunity to [00:11:30] discuss it with their family, but no. Can you describe for me, um, your involvement with the women's movement and and how that came about Well, I think I was sort of middle of the road. Really, Uh, but I was There was a women's liberation group at Victoria University. Um, they [00:12:00] were, you know, like, for me, they were kind of awesome and frightening. Um, so I didn't really feel like I had the analysis and the, um, the strategy to join that group. But I knew they were there, and salient would cover, you know, material. Um, I tended to more to a more mainstream engagement in the women's electoral lobby, which was pretty vibrant in Wellington. And, uh, had [00:12:30] people like Judith ain Margaret Shields, Maria Robinson. Uh, Sonia Davies. Um, but it was a real cross section. Uh, and also, of course, there had just been the Select Committee on Women's Rights, which was the first parliamentary overview of the vast range of discrimination against women. And so that select committee report, [00:13:00] if you were studying political science, of course, immediately became a A very important, uh, citation and reference point. I was also in my honours year, uh, taught papers by Chris Wainwright and Stephen Levine, who very much encouraged the woman to read Charlotte Perkins Gilman work yellow wallpaper in particular. I remember, um, who [00:13:30] who were introducing us? These guys were introducing us to the work of people like, uh, Kathleen Berry. Um, Robin Morgan. Um I think now we may have published her first work, then, uh, but about once a month at the university bookstore, a new foreign feminist book came in, and I would spend many hours in there reading [00:14:00] it because I could never afford them. And the library didn't necessarily get them immediately. And if it did, there was a waiting list. Uh, but so that kind of emergence was also exciting. And yeah, that was that was what I did. Um, I I had at the streets for demonstrating, but that was nearly always anti apartheid. So things like shops, full day massacre and, [00:14:30] um yeah, that sort of thing. Can you paint a picture for me of what the National Party was like when you joined in the early seventies? Because in 2012, you know, there's the perception that national is a lot more kind of right leaning conservative where labour is very left leaning liberal. Well, we wish it's not, but anyway, yes, the greens may be labour isn't Yes. I mean, what was what [00:15:00] drew you to national? A. Well, the opposition to Kirk was like, first of all. And secondly, I never thought I never really took it seriously because I couldn't win this selection. You know, putting my name in was was a feminist act. The women's electoral lobby in Wellington had written to the, uh, directors of it would have been National Labour social credit parties at the time, [00:15:30] saying that they had a dismal record. In fact, they'd only been 13 women members of Parliament ever, Um, in 1974. And why weren't they having, you know, actively engaging to see that there were more women in parliament. There had been four only all in the Labour Party from 1972 to 75 and each of the directors replied with exactly the same answer. Oh, we'd [00:16:00] love to have more women, but they don't offer themselves for selection. And so my act in offering myself was a form of, um, political reaction, you know, to those letters, and it was going to be impossible that the third safest seat in the country would pick a 22 year old woman. So I thought, Oh, I'll go through it, you know? And so I'll be part of the [00:16:30] women who do offer themselves to demonstrate what we do, you know? And still nobody gets chosen, but mine be fried. Did you have any comprehension of actually what standing for Parliament meant? Well, because I was working in Parliament buildings. I had a little. Also, there was something inside me. I was going to go through this, but I wasn't gonna let anybody make a fool of me. So [00:17:00] I can remember In the evenings, going into the Parliamentary library and from cover to cover, I read the last three months of the Huntley Press, the Courier and the Cambridge Independent and the Waikato Times. And whatever happened, I wasn't, you know, going to be found short in respect of what the issues were in that new and that Raglan [00:17:30] constituency. And as it happened, that served me very well doing that. I wasn't doing it to be the best competitor. I was doing it so that I wouldn't look a fool it so yes, I knew about parliament and the being a research officer in Parliament certainly [00:18:00] carried some mana even at the age of 22 with the voting delegates in the electorate, Was there a point where it switched for you? And you thought, actually, I can win this. I never, ever thought I can win this. The very the the preselection part. Um, there were 11 candidates. [00:18:30] Uh, and it was there was a a long interview with, um So officials from the constituency officials from the Waikato Division of the National Party, officials from the Dominion Council of the Party. So that was a major Q and a all men. Uh, that's when reading those newspapers came to the fore because I was told later that, uh, every [00:19:00] other candidate had been asked about problems in a for example, and every one of them had said there weren't any, but there was a major need for a childcare centre that had been really going on and on in the newspaper. So I had that as well as some other you know, things to talk about there. And then I just went straight to the Hamilton airport to come back to my job in Wellington because I thought, Oh, well, that was interesting, you know, [00:19:30] And, uh I There was a phone call for me at the airport. You know where you got to remember? This is way before mobile phones and things. So the broadcast comes over. Uh, and it was the chairman of the meeting saying you're in the final five. I just wanted to let you know you may not want to get on the plane back to Wellington. You might want to start meeting the voting delegates now, because that's what the others will be doing. I got on the plane back to Wellington because I didn't have a clue [00:20:00] what happened next, and I thought it would be the best place to find out. So, uh, yes. So I came back and, um, uh, you know, found out how the next part of the party system worked. And then, armed with a great, vast pile of briefing notes that were being given to MP S by my research unit, I went back up to begin to visit the voting delegates and to go [00:20:30] to the final selection evening. Um, I still didn't believe I had a chance. The very first meeting that I did with delegates, I went to visit a family in Huntley and three of them in the family had a vote. And we got on very well until we started to discuss sporting contacts with South Africa. And I just said I was totally [00:21:00] opposed to them and I protested about them and it was, you know, a very amicable discussion. But I lived there laughing away to myself, thinking I'm just hopeless at this, you know how funny. And yet on the evening that I won, they came up to me afterwards and said, you might not believe this, but we've voted for you on every round. We thought that if you didn't lie to us, then you were the person we wanted to go to Wellington. So obviously, [00:21:30] you know, there were some things I was doing that were OK. I mean, I just I was very relaxed through the whole of that period because I didn't have a show as far as I was concerned. So I just said what I thought when the party was quizzing you were they also quizzing you about your kind of personal life and your like, private relationships? No, not at all. Um, they There were some delegates [00:22:00] who would come and say to me, um, you know, Well, what will you do if you get married and have a family? And I just smiled at them and said, Oh, I'll answer that when you go and ask the other four gentlemen here what they're going to do about their families, you know? That would be it. That was all you had to do. And you mentioned earlier about being in the closet or being closeted around this time. What did that actually mean? What did that mean for you? Well, it just meant I wasn't wearing a label that said I am a lesbian. Put it on the [00:22:30] front page. So it didn't make any difference to how I lived right? Or where I went with my partner. It just meant I well, in in the seventies, you just you took care. Was there ever a push in the early seventies for, um, gay and lesbian people to come out? Or is that a kind of a later thing? Well, [00:23:00] there, I mean, there was just a steady movement all the way. I mean, Broadsheet magazine was also operating at that time, and, of course, they'd had the retreat and there'd been a huge split between the So-called women's liberationist and the lesbian feminist and I. I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to be stuck in the middle of fighting women either, Truly. I mean it. It seemed to me that we had so much to overcome that I just wanted to save my energy for the long [00:23:30] march and not actually be trying to determine who was Marxist and who was trot and who was gay and who was socialist and who was liberal with a small L. And, you know, God, I just had no time for any of that. How was the campaign for you? Oh, it was hilarious. It was It was so much fun. Um, they sort of played pass the parcel. They recognised that they had to teach me a lot that I didn't know, but I was really happy. I've always [00:24:00] been a great student. Um, and so literally I would just get passed from branch to branch to branch around the constituency. Um, there were other wonderful things all my life because I'd lived there. They'd always been, you know, different buildings or manufacturing plants or other things I've always thought I'd love to see what goes on in there. And of course, now I could, So I'd ring up and say, Could I visit? [00:24:30] You know, and so off I'd go. It's like, Wow, isn't that amazing? You know, So it was sort of this little wish list of stuff I wanted to do and see the we we had the whole, um, electorate make lists of of any event where there were likely to be more than 50 people. Well, loads of those were at schools, you know, they were calf club days or, um, flower show days or other stuff. [00:25:00] And, uh, you know, I'd just be brought along by members of the party to and just wandered around like that. So yeah, that was really I found it very comfortable. And the public meetings were pretty easy, too, actually, what were the main issues that were being discussed in my constituency? I guess there were really two that dominated. One was around energy. [00:25:30] Huntley coal mining the building of the Huntley dual fired power station. Um, what energy policy was going to look like in the future? Um, whether or not Huntley was going to be looked after. Um, it was the first place where a major generating plant was being built, where there was already a population in a community. So many of the other hydro stations, of course, had started from nothing and built the town. [00:26:00] Um, I was, um so that was major for me. And agriculture was significant. Housing is always significant. Education is always significant. Immigration is always very important for the people who need that. Their that family person, you know, it mightn't concern a wide raft of the the electorate. But, uh, for [00:26:30] those for whom that's an issue, it's the most important issue. Uh, also, I think, um uh, there was for me, uh, Labour Head, the Roger Douglas superannuation scheme, which completely omitted women, not in the paid workforce. And to me, that was an outrage. And the alternate proposal of national superannuation from [00:27:00] national was one that I could so easily readily support. And that was significant. Really significant. To be able to think that, you know, all your elderly could have lives of dignity to me was very important. Uh, the proposal that was in the policy for a Human Rights Commission act that was drafted by a gay man called Robin Stewart, who also worked in the opposition research unit with me. And as we drafted [00:27:30] it, we didn't put sexual preference or sexual orientation in there. But we knew one day this would deliver it to us. If we could just get it in with those grounds one day, it would work for us. And so it was a conscious decision not to put it in at the start. We wouldn't win, and it wouldn't have been accepted and adopted by the party as policy, so we just weren't going to push in that direction. [00:28:00] In fact, it was probably good that we didn't even raise a flag to have some of them think that in time Catherine O'Regan might amend it the way she did, you know. So during that campaign, were you ever anxious that somebody would start pointing the finger and say, Oh, you know, your private life? Lesbianism? No, not really. No, it wasn't at that point. I, I it seemed [00:28:30] very unlikely. Uh um, The relationship I'd had was pretty strained by the fact that this thing had happened to me, you know, becoming the candidate um and no I at at my age, 22. Um, you know, it wasn't as if I was sort of 29 or 30. You know, there was everybody still thought there was plenty of time [00:29:00] for me to find the right guy. Can you describe for me what election night was like? Oh, it was pretty mad, Really. We went to the, um, high court building in Hamilton, which was where all the returns came in. So I was there with my Peter Hamilton, who was my, um, electorate Chairman Catherine O'Regan, Uh, a couple of other members of my [00:29:30] campaign committee, my mom and dad. And as the results came in for Raglan, it was obvious that it was a huge victory. Really huge. Um, and also that there was a major swing across the country. I think we went from the courthouse to the Waikato Division National Party function, uh, and then [00:30:00] eventually home to Huntley, where there were a whole lot of people at my parents' home as well. Yeah, so I think really, from the moment I was selected the candidate, it was going to be pretty difficult to lose that seat. What do you think made people vote so overwhelmingly for you, Uh, were [00:30:30] women, you know, because it was international women's year. Even women who weren't feminists, you know, women were upset that they weren't represented. It was really important. I've always found that. And it and it happened then women who had never taken any interest in politics and who hadn't even enrolled, went and enrolled so they could vote for Marilyn. Um, they are, uh, [00:31:00] always when we looked at the figures from Raglan and then in and again, um, you find a huge, huge swing from labour to national. So there were vast numbers of labour women holding their noses and voting for Marilyn as it were so that social credit actually became the second dominant party. Yeah, So there was just a very, very large women's [00:31:30] vote for me all the way through. Um, there was a traditional grounded farming boat for national. Um, I think in that period, because there were a lot of other issues like the reproductive freedom issues, um, the Springbok tour issue, um, that people also sometimes moved away from party and voted for the individual, you know, depending [00:32:00] on which side they were taking in those particular issues, but it all added up to, um, an easy win each time. How did you feel? I don't I can't. You know, it's very hard to answer things like that because this isn't the person who had those feelings and and mostly I don't remember them. Um, I know in 1981 [00:32:30] when we were re-elected with a majority just of one, I had a very different feeling. Um, it was a very I. I all of a sudden life was very serious for me. I mean, it had been plenty serious anyway, but it was much more serious right at that point. Um, And Colin James, I don't know if you'll remember this on the Sunday you know, he [00:33:00] could have, you know, he was the senior political editor for the National Business Review. He could or should probably have been in many other more important places, and he drove to Cambridge, and I can remember him sitting on my back veranda in saying, I feel fairly certain what the outcome of this government is going to be, but I don't know what issue you'll do it on. It's like it was [00:33:30] several jumps ahead of me a little bit. I mean, I was taking it seriously, but not quite with the implication that he was providing. You know, um, you even with a majority of one Unless you lost on a conscience vote or a matter of national security, you didn't have to go to the polls. I mean, I was in a situation where I could stop really bad things from happening as far as I was concerned, you know? But that didn't mean the government would fall, but he'd gone further. [00:34:00] So yeah, I haven't forgotten that. Comment. Your maiden speech in parliament. Uh, I. I saw a quote that that that that you called your colleagues, um, out of touch backward and conservative. Do you Do you recall that? Yeah, well, I said some. I was always careful. I didn't say all of them were, um uh and I especially from 75 to 78. Whenever [00:34:30] I was talking about white middle class males. It was obvious I was talking about all of them in the house social credit, labour national. They were all the same, you know, Really, they were They were, you know, sitting here going through my papers in the Turnbull. And I'm just reading some of the the way in which people wrote, you know, Marilyn would like to come and award the certificates to the Maori girls [00:35:00] who are graduating from, you know, the Waikato Polytechnic. Oh, thank you very much. Girls. Um, I've just been through one from Alan Hyatt with where he's written me a letter. I'm going to talk to the fire service or something. And he's talking about, uh you might like to introduce the notion that they could extend membership to their wives and other women. This was the environment that I was in. It was Victorian. [00:35:30] OK, so my intolerance was generally of the lot of them. And I have that as a maiden speech as well. I was Well, uh, well, I think you'll find that it was, you know, it's kind of it was packaged nicely, so they couldn't be too offended or or it was always packaged. So you only took offence if you thought you were one of the ones I was referring to. So the better decision on behalf of men would [00:36:00] be to think, Oh, she doesn't mean me at that time in the Parliament. How many women were there? Uh, 75 to 78 Sullivan, Mary Bachelor Colleen Dew, who did pull through and win Littleton for National and myself 78 to 81 um, fitted to the Sullivan. Mm. Ann Hercus [00:36:30] must be Margaret Shields and I and then 81 to 84. You add Helen Clark and Ruth Richardson. So we got to six. Yeah. So 78 to 81 was very grim for me. The only woman in the national caucus. What was that like? Well, I wasn't just the only woman you know. I was younger than heaps of them by miles. Um, it was [00:37:00] gruelling. It was really gruelling. Uh, you know, that I had No, um I had no desire to go further in politics. You know, I had no desire to be a Cabinet minister, though I know a number of my colleagues urged Muldoon to do that because I thought in terms of cabinet collective responsibility, I'd be having to resign just about every Monday. Um, because [00:37:30] I didn't want to be part, you know, at least in caucus, you were told what Cabinet had decided and then you could battle it. But even if you had battled it in cabinet, you then had to be quiet, you know, and and go along. And I think that suffocation would have just driven me crazy. Um, and so my battle was not about Marilyn wearing my battle was about my constituents and about women. Um, but, you [00:38:00] know, I was in a in an institution where the majority of men were two generations older just about, and they just had no idea about the real world. Dear George Gere has said to me in more recent years, you had so much to teach us, and we wouldn't listen. We were so far behind. So, yeah, I've called it daily battery. [00:38:30] Mm. What do you think was hard of being young being a woman, being a feminist, being a lesbian? What were the? Well, you know, just being me was hard. I mean, that's who I was, you know? Yeah. I mean, even being a woman was offensive enough to some of them. Can you recall any politicians that were either, um, outwardly [00:39:00] gay or that it was known around parliament were gay at the time? Um, there were suspicions, but never No, nobody else was out. Um, but it was, you know, male activity was still illegal. Why would you? Even if I'd known, I wouldn't have done that to people. You know, there were the house staff, [00:39:30] the Parliament house staff. We were full of gay people, you know, There were gay people all over Bellamy. There were gay people in the clerk's office. There were gay people in the library. You couldn't. You know, there were gay people in the press gallery there. They were all over the place, you know, But But the men were scared to. To be out or outed in that context would have been terrifying. I think for some of them, [00:40:00] some of them were obviously gay, but weren't ever going to say So. What about politicians? Were there any politicians that you knew of? Well, there may have been, but, um, I wouldn't even if I knew I wouldn't. You know, people people can choose for themselves. I'm never I've never been in the business of outing. That happened to you though, didn't it? In 76. Can you tell me about that? Um, [00:40:30] yeah, Well, the New Zealand Truth ran the story for six weeks in a row about, um, my, uh, being a lesbian. I my I believe I haven't read the book, but I've read and heard commentary about the recent book on truth saying that that was the beginning of the end. They made a really poor choice. They had no idea how the public [00:41:00] would react. Um, they really thought they were on to a a winner. But in fact, they got buried in an avalanche of mail That that told them that they were disgusting and filthy and, you know, sort of lay off. So they actually kept running the cover story by running the mail for a long, you know? So, yeah, about six weeks. Yeah. Did you know it was going to happen before they went to press? How, uh, you can read the autobiography [00:41:30] for that? How far in advance did you know? Some days. And how did you feel? Well, probably the immediate reaction, but I probably just Oh, shit. Really? I mean, yeah, but it was good. I had some great mates being in Parliament. Had you had that crossed your mind [00:42:00] that somebody might try and out you Uh, yeah, I suppose it had, Um, but I never I never saw that outing coming from within Parliament. I. I felt very safe, strangely enough in in that context, in the house. Um, I probably wouldn't have if I had still being [00:42:30] in the closet when Muldoon gunned for mole. That made it a very unsafe place. I think it's probably been more unsafe since then. What impact did having the those headlines for six weeks? What impact did that have on you? I wasn't very worried about me. Right. Um, I was more. I can can [00:43:00] remember being very conscious that I might just have blown it for young women for a long time, like so, feeling more responsible about that and more concerned about my constituency. But, you know, only a couple of weeks ago, I listened to Catherine O'Regan talking about being, uh, with me through all that period and being, um, effectively, my personal assistant [00:43:30] in the constituency. And somebody asked her how was it in the electorate? Um, when the truth story ran and Catherine's response, which is probably more reasonable than mine, you know, um, was that actually, you're in an agricultural, uh, constituency. Anybody with their eyes open on a farm knows that all animals aren't heterosexual. [00:44:00] Um, that it that it gave many people in the constituency the opportunity to, um, say something like, Oh, well, you know, my brother or my daughter, Or you know, that that within close knit rural communities frequently, you know, there were the two women who were workers on farms or there was the school [00:44:30] teachers who, you know, always went as couples to all the local community gatherings. Nobody had to talk about it. People knew. Um, so it was a lot of that. And Catherine said, um, it was that that the Springbok tour was much tougher. She said, You can't come between farmers and their rugby. So that was her, um, response. Yeah. Do you think that outing [00:45:00] was politically driven or was it just a tabloid? No, I know what it was. And that's in the autobiography, too. So I'm not going to tell you that, either. Yeah. What about around parliament? Did that change how people reacted to you or interacted with you? No. Um, there was tremendous support. Um, huge support across right across the board, [00:45:30] The end. Um No, it didn't. It and, uh, only one invitation was cancelled to address the, uh, women's section of the National Party was the only only thing that got cancelled. And I thought it might have all kinds of effects, but I've just been going through the 1976 invitations [00:46:00] and no, you know, there are girls schools wanting me as the guest speaker at the end of the year and all kinds of things. So it obviously just didn't bother a whole lot of people or, you know, they just it wasn't important in terms of how I was viewed. You know, the the main thing was, did I do a good job? Did other people in Parliament um perhaps start coming out to you? No, not parliamentarians. I mean staff, [00:46:30] Yes, but not parliamentarians. Mhm. It's interesting you say about the reaction when, just a couple of years later, you've got Colin Moyle and that whole affair with with with Robert Muldoon. Can you tell me about that? And how that affected you? Or if if it affected you at all? Well, it's 77. Yeah. So it's a year and a bit later, I think, um, it didn't really affect me except that I was outraged. [00:47:00] But AAA significant number of my national party colleagues were outraged. Muldoon perceived more as a leadership threat. Um, and also the manner in which he learned this was disgusting. Um, so, um, I my tolerance of him, um, yeah, just that [00:47:30] moved him to another level. Really? Um, he he personally attacked a lot of people, you know, think of people like Abraham or I mean, just all over the place. Sonny Ram. He just would go individuals. And he attacked personally, You know, he didn't attack the politics or things like that. Um, but no, that was That was nasty. That was awful. And it It was an indication of the [00:48:00] kind of odour that the Muldoon administration would gather to itself as the years went on. Yeah. Did it have any personal effect on you? No. No. I wrote my hand, wrote Muldoon a memo saying that I thought it was disgusting, um, and disgraceful. And, uh, that if anybody asked me publicly, I would say that. And did [00:48:30] anybody else know? But anyway, you know, was homosexuality ever used against you? As as a kind of a political weapon. Oh, yeah. Um, very soon after that outing, um, Peter Taps was addressing the Waikato division of the Labour Party, and he got front page headlines [00:49:00] by saying that the government's policy on women was being run by bar and lesbian when the Raglan electorate disappeared and altogether and I had to begin again. And when the electorate, uh, and was challenged by, um four. I think other men, um, their their main quote whenever they wrote [00:49:30] those little paragraph about yourself, I have a normal family. So normal became, you know, picking up the old Kirk word. So there was a lot about, you know, you could have a representative who had a normal family life. Um, I always thought that was hysterical because within the year, two of them were divorced and one of them was bankrupt. So you know so much for them. Um, anyway, [00:50:00] and and you also have to ask yourself if anybody thinks that, you know, being a partner of a parliamentarian is a normal family life. No, of course it doesn't, But, um, yeah, there was that there were always sometimes there were real sneaky. There were always little sneaky comments uh um, at sometimes at public meetings, Um, that, but I I had I'd got my sort of my armilla [00:50:30] shield on by then, you know, they didn't kind of touch me. It was good. It was all right. I, um I could, you know, move through those or spin them around and laugh back or something. Yeah, but, um, in parliament? No, that it was a very, very interesting. On the night the government fell in 1984 after Muldoon, it had quite a lot of brandy. He called me a perverted little liar. [00:51:00] So obviously it was always there after those articles and truth. How did you I guess, present yourself in terms of I mean, did you kind of kind of come out and present yourself as yes, I am a lesbian? Or did you just say, Well, um, it's none of your business, so yeah, pretty much. Look, you know, anybody who who sees me in public, anybody who knows [00:51:30] me, everybody knows, You know, I don't make a secret of it, but I'm not here to fuel truths and come, um, I just you know, as I've always said, I'll just go on, get on with my life. Um, but, uh, it made a huge difference for the gay community, both in terms of the the kind of examples I gave you earlier where you know, so many people over so many years have come up and said, You've got no idea, you know, we were sitting at the table [00:52:00] and Mum was saying, It's outrageous. How dare they and Dad were saying It's nobody's business And I finally had the opportunity to say, Well, I'm glad you think that because I am, you know, huge numbers of, um, people. Uh, the other thing that happened was that especially around immigration matters, when a New Zealander had a lover who wasn't a New Zealander and when they wanted to live together in New Zealand. Finally, there was [00:52:30] somebody that they could come to in Parliament who could help, you know, or go as far as you possibly could go on those things. And, um, yeah, I think I became a you know, someone safe for gay people to talk to whatever it was about, Really. If it was some, um, tension with some government department that may or may not relate to [00:53:00] their being gay. Another thing that happened was that over the years for me, I always said lots of information fell off the back of a truck. Well, there were always gay people right through the bureaucracy. And if I wanted something, I always got it. Even if it wasn't through the Orthodox ways you mentioned just kind of like, you know, putting your head down and just getting on with [00:53:30] it. Where does that strength come from? Well, some people would say it's just a Protestant work ethic. Really. I still have problems with it at the age of 60. Stopping working is a real major for me. So, for example, I no longer have any Internet connection in my home because I had to stop myself working all the time. Um and, you know, I still have to work on it. But I also knew I think I felt the the truth [00:54:00] outing came. Then the the constituency disappeared. And then there was the, uh, competition for and I know I know that part of it was right inside me was you bastards. When I leave this place, I'll go on my own terms, not on your terms. Now that means these constituents have to see the very best MP [00:54:30] they can possibly see. And so that was it. But, you know, go back to those stories I was telling you about the campaign. I actually loved all of that stuff, you know, um, you know, the the forest parks having a mountain climb on Sunday. Well, you know, this is work. I can go and climb the mountain, call it work, agricultural field days. You know, they wander around there for a day or two. It was I loved [00:55:00] it. I loved it. You know, there were heaps and heaps of things going to to, um, every month, You know, these long, long hours of constituency meetings, I can remember Neil Finn coming to me in the heart delegation about Springbok tours. You know, just the the privilege of learning that comes with the access, Uh, and [00:55:30] the privilege of people's trust in you, you know, people at very vulnerable points in their lives. So I didn't dislike that work. I love that work. What kind of impact did being in Parliament have on your private life? Um, I don't know that It's so much me. I think that [00:56:00] I'm I'm tremendously admiring of people who maintain really strong, healthy, good partner relationships in Parliament. I think it's a hell of a task really, really tough. Um, and because of my dedication to my work, I'm not sure that I was ever a great partner. If, you know, I I know the work came first, [00:56:30] and, um, you know, I don't think any of us liked it very much, but it did. And I don't feel like I. I, um you never knew, you know, the phone call, you'd planned to do something, and the phone call would come because they couldn't find anybody else, you know? And somebody would need an urgent passport because someone was dying somewhere or something. [00:57:00] They could always find me, you know, um, it's II. I don't think of those years as being years where I had a healthy had healthy relationships. I was also, um you know, when you are being battered, So as well as telling the constituency stories, there is a kind of a constant battery, a constant fatigue. [00:57:30] I know I. I just I just don't think I was great a great partner during that period. And, um, I I do realise, in retrospect, I never had a great deal of self confidence around it. I mean, is this person taking any notice of you because you're an MP or because they think you're lovely, you know? And there were always [00:58:00] plenty of people who only wanted to know you because you were an MP. So it was confusing as well. How did you feel about truth after after 1976? Um, well, I'd never read it in the first place, you know. So you you know, one of the things I tried to do in Parliament there were a number of things around emotions. One was to recognise anger as a real energy and stop [00:58:30] it before it ate me up and turn it around and transform it into something to do with it, you know, to to use the energy of it, to capture it, but not to let it blacken me, or or also to to. There was so much to have to do to avoid the dark stuff. You know, I didn't need that in my life. I was I There were enough bad things happening to women and enough bad [00:59:00] things happening to my constituents. You know, I didn't need to go looking for it anywhere. Um, so it was of no moment to me. Really? I did. Of course. I was delighted when they went out of business. You mentioned the third election in 81 where things changed for you. What? In what way? A number of things happened between 1978 and 1981 that were very important. [00:59:30] One was a unit seminar that I went to in Oslo just before the United Nations Women's half decade conference in Copenhagen. And Germaine Greer was invited and couldn't go. And Elizabeth Reed nominated me in her place and I went, and that was extraordinary. I met [01:00:00] El Alwi Maria de these extraordinary women from around the world. Feminist women, strong women, women who'd been in exile, women who'd been prime minister following a military junta. You know, first all these other firsts and they were feminists and they were lonely, you know. But they were older than me. And that was huge. And then to go to Copenhagen [01:00:30] and to lead the most lead the most radical feminist amendment to the whole platform, which is what I did with um, my colleagues in the New Zealand A delegation and that gave I. I used that energy for years. I just used it for years. It was so important then, after [01:01:00] that, Elizabeth Reed, who's been an extraordinary, um, mentor in my life, nominated me for the um Kennedy School of Government Fellowship at Harvard. And I took that for the first couple of months in 1981 and that was extraordinary as well. The other fellows were General Joseph Garba from Nigeria, who then headed the UN Apartheid Committee. Suzanne King. I remember who'd been head of consumer [01:01:30] Affairs. Jean Eisenberg, who'd been Carter's secretary to Camp John Colver. Who'd been the the Democrat senator who won Ohio. Uh, these amazing people that I was with and in this extraordinary environment where I had access to wonderful academics but also to redcliffe, I met many more feminists who were writing International [01:02:00] and, uh, US feminists, and so again got energised. But I came home from that to the Springbok tour and I. I think New Zealand was disgraceful, and that and Muldoon was unforgivable for me. That was I was kind of over and out for this man now. Uh, and I [01:02:30] also, um, got so fatigued and so ill during that campaign. I was hospitalised. Um And so when I woke up and there was a majority of one and of course, I'd gone into the 81 election without being challenged. So the when I go it will be on my own terms was now open. I hated it. I [01:03:00] hated being in there, but I couldn't go because then they would say, Women can't stand it. Young women can't stand it. Gay young women can't stand it. Feminist women can't stand it. I had to I did this thing. I had to exceed the average length of term that MP S had. I even knew what that was. And I knew once I got past seven at that time, I'd exceeded the average, you see. So then it would be all right. By the time I was 32 it was nearly a third of my life [01:03:30] in there in this dreadful place, you know? So, yeah, I couldn't wait to go. I knew the morning I woke up after the election. It would be my last term, but I never told a soul. But Colin knew too, from his instincts. What were the biggest things that you think you achieved while in Parliament? Now, Michael Minogue And I used to say that what [01:04:00] we achieved well, he achieved the freedom of information. He has a major, major achievement. He he was fantastic. So special and remarkable. That battle just beautiful. Um, but we used to say that our job description was turn 3 60 degrees every morning, throw yourself bodily in front of the next juggernaut and try to stop even worse [01:04:30] things from happening. Yeah, that was our job description. Yes. So I can go back to Catherine O'Regan. Um, she says that my achievements aren't, you know, bills or, um, legacies of opening particular things. Um, [01:05:00] but they were about leadership, for women. Hm. So that'd be pretty good if it's really what the effect was. Can you describe what it was like when everything came to a head and, uh, with more do Well, I'm not going to tell you that it takes away some of the best parts of the autobiography because, you know, I was the only person who played it right through, you know. So there were stories of [01:05:30] the the Bar gusta and rights and the Muldoon biography of the meeting in the whips office. And who was there and, uh, you know, then there was the the evening before leading up to it, and in the evening afterwards, he declared, uh, but I'm not surprised it was that issue. [01:06:00] I still have a copy of a book by Bertrand Russell called Common Sense and Nuclear Warfare that my father bought for me in my early teenage years from Harry Clark. Who was the local CPNZ remember in you know, I said we had one of everybody, and I know that the Cuban missile crisis had had a huge effect on my dad and then, [01:06:30] uh, when I was at secondary school. So only a year. A couple of years later, um, the war game, that amazing black and white British documentary about a nuclear bomb came through New Zealand and it was restricted to age 16 unless you went accompanied by a parent. So I got my dad to come and take me out of school and take me to that. And then, you know, the the testing in, [01:07:00] um, I'm nothing has, you know, my there were so many markers for me that independently I. I wouldn't have been aware how how compelling the case was being made inside my mind and inside me, Uh, and in my archives, I'm finding material address to me from things like, [01:07:30] uh, the annual meeting of the I can't I'm sorry. I don't remember what they're called, but I don't know if Presbyterians have synods, but anyway, you know, if the Waikato Presbyterian whatever and they're writing to me and and they're writing to me about apartheid sport, and they're writing to me about, uh, nuclear weapons testing and, you know, heaps of my party officials were good Presbyterians, you know? So this wasn't some [01:08:00] kind of mad left wing fling I was getting from Orthodox kind of centrist organisations, messages, information, lobbying around these issues for a long time. Yeah, so I I probably couldn't have told you how things would spin out, but, um, you know, they'd been Prebble Bill and Bill was there was likely to be something [01:08:30] else. I battled really hard to get the disarmament and Arms Control Select Committee set up. I battled really hard to keep the the the Select Committee alive at the end of each year of parliament, they can die. And there was an attempt to thank goodness I was sitting in the house. There was an attempt to lose that committee. You know, Unfortunately, I just kind of could see that Just got the information soon enough to stop that. Um, [01:09:00] so there were many years probably of of emotional intellectual investment in that issue. Yeah, I'm really proud that that's what caused it. Caused the election. Yeah. Can you tell me about your relationship with Robert Muldoon and and how that changed, Or did it change? I mean, did you always not particularly like him that much? What Didn't I don't know that I've, you know, had [01:09:30] kind of, like, dislike. Whatever. Um, when I worked in the opposition research unit, You know, I, I like all the people who work there. You produce material for him while he was on the campaign trail. And that mostly he got you got out of him, which was what a lot of people got out of him. It was just, you know, so all right. Handed over. Hm. Hm. Thank you. Go. You know, um, then I'm in his caucus. George Gere, I The [01:10:00] very first caucus meeting I went into, I picked the far right hand corner, and George Gear came in and came and pulled me and sat me in the front row directly in front of Muldoon and said, You will sit here. You will sit here and he cannot ignore you. And George sat beside me and for nine years, that's where we sat, you know, directly in front of Muldoon in the front row. Um, and I'm sure he would rather have [01:10:30] had me stay in the far corner. But anyway, it definitely made a difference. Um, and I was amazed, um, in 78 when I was put into the chair of the Public Expenditure Committee. Um, I think actually, that was Tony Friedlander suggestion. But I also think that when they saw I was the only woman in government that, [01:11:00] uh, they thought that putting me in the chair of that committee was one way of slowing me down on feminist issues. It didn't, of course, actually gave me more access, you know, um, especially to ministries, departments, agencies. Um, we we didn't apart from caucus, we really didn't have much interaction at all. But that would be the truth for most [01:11:30] backbenchers. You know, I wasn't in the whiskey brandy drinking sessions. You know, He did wander around corridors and drink with MP S, but he wouldn't have got a free drink in my office. So mhm. And you mentioned that quote from him where he called you a little perverted little liar. Perverted little liar. Where did he say that? In the whips office on the final the night that he called the special [01:12:00] election. Mm. And how did you respond? I laughed and ate an apple. It always drives me mad when people crunch apples and you know, when I'm at a meeting And so when I knew that's where I was going, I took an apple and my father always said to me, If you want to win an argument, go the best dressed. [01:12:30] And I thought it's very, very important that I appear to lose this argument. So I changed out of my suit into my tracksuit, and I went in my tracksuit with my apple. You mentioned George ge a number of times, and I'm thinking it must have been pretty need to have somebody to say? Actually, no, you should be sitting up the front. Oh, George has been special. He was extraordinary. Like both for a researcher for me and then [01:13:00] as a as a mentor or someone who just looked out for me looked after me. Um uh, I had great respect for him, especially on reproductive freedom. Um, issues. He was always there for women around those, um, he's just a thoroughly nice person as well. Uh, and yeah, it would have been very, very different. Different [01:13:30] for me without George there. We're still very good friends. Hm. And he has subsequently completed his master of philosophy with me. What was the feeling? Like leaving parliament? Oh, um, it was wonderful to be out of there. It was It was just amazing. I think it took [01:14:00] a long, long time to recover. You know, um, both physically from fatigue, uh, and emotionally. But but but I knew the farm. I knew the farm was important because I knew the farm would heal. And also, I've been so envious of so many of my constituents, you know, I had dreams of having a little drive up [01:14:30] the hill with grass growing in the middle and daffodils on the side and plum blossoms and, you know, lambs barring and all those things. I mean, I knew there was all the rest of it as well, but it seemed to me that that was that was a promise. I held out for myself and helped get me through very shortly after that, Um, we had Fran Wilde and the introduction of the homosexual law reform. Did you Did you have anything to do with either campaigning [01:15:00] or or or working in that area? Um, uh, No, I wasn't. Um uh, I wasn't I was I was there to give strength to Fran, but I wasn't engaged in any of the other. You know, there's only so many times you can do that to yourself. It's your friend will tell you. You know, it's harrowing. Sue Bradford will tell you it's harrowing, so no. [01:15:30] Oh, I did lobby my own MP at the time. It was a bit of a waste of time. That was Lockwood Smith. But, um, yes, you know, I would still do things like that. You've also mentioned Catherine O'Regan a number of times, and it was in the early nineties where she kind of spearheaded the last part of the the human Rights Amendment. Bill going through, uh, [01:16:00] Catherine's been with you for a long, long time. 75? Yeah. You see, my big sister. Um well, that was terrific commitment from her. I guess, in a way, she knew the constituency would be OK, because if they could live with me, they could live with this amendment. You know, they wouldn't have said it was their priority, but still, I think only three national members of Parliament voted [01:16:30] for her amendment. You know it. It's very hard. It's very hard to push like that where your caucus is not going to support you. So I was very proud. The Human Rights Amendment Act came through, and I think it was about 93. And then we've had things like the civil union act and possibly this year, 2012 equal in 2013 as well. Are there other things that the New Zealand [01:17:00] Parliament should be looking at in terms of of LGBTI rights? Well, I strongly opposed civil union. You might know that, um, because equivalence is not equality and civil union was the apartheid solution separate but equal. And I don't see why any of us should settle for second place. And I still find civil union a loss of dignity when you can't have marriage equality. [01:17:30] Um, but the end of your question is very interesting because one of the key things about Lewis's bill and marriage equality is when it talks about gender identity. And this will throw us back in the lead in the world again. Um, because of the use of gender identity. And that's especially important. I, uh, you were at the Human Rights Conference, [01:18:00] so you'll remember Felicia Brown. Acton. I've never forgotten that intervention LGBTI does not include us. We are. We are in Indonesia. We are in Thailand. We We have centuries of cultural tradition that go with our names. We have a special place in our society. We are not LGBTI. We are the language and the names that were given to us. So I think [01:18:30] that actually, the gay movement in New Zealand needs to go there next. That's a really important place to be going. And Lewis has captured that by gender identity. Um, I've just completed a year long job writing modules on gender and economics for U NDP for the entirety of Asia Pacific, which is lovable because that's everything from Iran to new. But outside [01:19:00] of HIV and A I DS, these are now the first UN documents that have third gender through the whole lot of them, even when there's nothing there. No evidence, no data, no anything because I remember in 75 the first chapters that always said men and women and then the entirety of the rest of the document was about men or people on the basis that they didn't have data about women and they wouldn't use a narrative, and I wholeheartedly object to that. So [01:19:30] I keep over it and third gender every way through this. And then there's a footnote all the time and say that says no data are available as yet on this. And it was a battle I had to battle New York. I had to battle Bangkok. Fortunately, they write these really loosey goosey contracts, you know, So part of my contract said that I had to be accurate. And, uh, since Nepal and India already have, you know by the constitutional provisions [01:20:00] or Supreme Court laws or and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Australia have practises. Now you know, for registration around passports. New Zealand's working on it, things like that. I said that that it was inaccurate and I would be in breach of my contract if the gender was not included in gender through the whole thing. So of course it's it's I've really enjoyed it. But it set off a whole lot of feminists who have made their lives from having gender a dichotomous kind of argument, you know? [01:20:30] And now all the things they've written about have all been turned upside down, so I'm not sure where it will go. But I think those are the kinds of places and spaces we must go to. We must pick up the intersex issues I've on my campus. They teach midwifery. So I've had folks from the intersex board up to talk to the academics and and, um, a UT University [01:21:00] to talk about ensuring that all midwifery training includes intersex, you know, so to have, say, to teach people to say you have a beautiful child instead, if you've got a beautiful boy or a beautiful girl, you know it's a beautiful child. I'm worried about the number of babies that are always lined up for the operations in Australia to assign a sex. Um, I think that there's a whole lot of material in the transgender inquiry [01:21:30] that still needs attention, but I'm interested in the dignity of all people, so.
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