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So, um, how long have you been an MP? Um, I've been an MP on and off. Might sound funny on and off since 2008. Uh, so I came in under the last, um, term of the Helen Clark government, Um, as a labour list MP, uh, for eight months. And in 2008, I stood for labour in the seat of Tamaki. Ma, I wasn't successful. Um, and then I wasn't high enough on the list to come back. [00:00:30] And so in, uh, 2011. Excuse me? I re-entered Parliament again as a labour list MP when, um, the honourable Darren Hughes left. And so the first, um, list stunt was eight months then I had a seven month stint, uh, as a labour list MP in 2011, But at the 2011, um, general election, I was Labour's candidate in the electorate of and I was successful. So the first time I've entered, [00:01:00] um, a term. And obviously I've got a different responsibility now, so I'm the MP for And have you been out the whole time? You've been involved in politics? Yes. I have I I came out. In fact, um, in trying to get my dates right, Um, in 1998 when I was a member of the Black Fins and that year we had the first, um, IRB sanctioned Women's Rugby World Cup. [00:01:30] And so I was a member of the black ferns, and I had a profile on the rugby news. So I was the back page profile. Um, and under partner, I put my partner's name Michelle, and that's how I came out. And so you've been in a pub in the public eye for quite some time, then? Yes, I have. And do you think that being in the public eye means that you were have been treated differently because of your sexuality? That you might not have been otherwise? Oh, I think there's been a lot of interest. Um, um, in terms of my sexuality, um, if [00:02:00] I look back to, uh, 1998 it did cause a bit of a, uh, not stir. But there was interest because there weren't many people at that time who were out in society. Um, and I guess in the domain of sport, um, there aren't many. Still, when you look at our All Blacks black ferns and silver ferns, uh, representatives who are out and proud. And so, yeah, I've kind of always since that point are being seen as somebody who, [00:02:30] um uh, you know, as a recognised member of our rainbow community, Uh, and when I did it, um, I was just answering the question. So for me, being being part of the rainbow community, um, is a really normal and natural thing to be, and so I've never hidden who I am. And II I, uh, respect and myself and my partners, so I would never hide it. And I've kind of found that because I've had such an open, honest, uh, regard for my sexuality, I've [00:03:00] not had much problems with it, To be honest, not not to my face. Um, obviously may have caused problems, um, to other people. But I've not been the recipient of any negative behaviour towards me because of my sexuality. Do you think your sexuality affected whether or not people voted for you? Uh, well, it's interesting, because I guess, um, when I look at the seat that I, um, stood in, it is, um, some would say conservative by virtue of the demography. So it's 32% Pacific, [00:03:30] 28% Maori, Um, 17% Asian, mostly Indian. New Zealanders. So a lot of, uh, new migrant communities, obviously a high density of church groups. Um, but I just was myself through the whole campaign, uh, whether or not people knew or not and whether it affected into them voting for me. Um, but obviously in that electorate, I do have to acknowledge that Labour has got a strong brand. And so, you [00:04:00] know, the biggest challenge for me, uh was, in fact, securing the nomination for the seat. And I was one of seven candidates. So, um, it I don't believe it plays a role. Uh, some people may think it does. I didn't stand on the list either, So I basically said to the community of, um if you want me, you have to vote for me, and I will do that again. Actually, in 2014, I will say to the community, uh, if you want me, you have to vote for me. And obviously the context will be different because I am the [00:04:30] member who's introduced the marriage, um, equality or the marriage definition of marriage. Um, Amendment Bill. So there will be now a lot more potential focus on my sexuality because of the profile around the bill. Um, what inspired you to to start with the bill? Oh, what inspired me is is our community, um, and young Rainbow uh, members. Um, I think it's really incumbent on people like myself who, um, have ended up in a in [00:05:00] a decision making position to continue to build on the legacy of, um, legislative reform. Uh, for us as a country, Um, we've come from homosexual law reform in 1986 to recognising that we can't discriminate based on sexual orientation, which was added to section 21 of our Human Rights Act in 1993. Uh, we then had a period during the, um, mid to late nineties, where our community wanted, uh, recognition of relationships [00:05:30] through the ability to marry, uh, which then led to the development of the civil unions legislation. And so what I'm trying to do is to continue to advance. Uh, what for me is an issue of equality and non-discrimination. So, as citizens of New Zealand in a modern democratic society, uh, our sexuality shouldn't limit our ability to be free and equal citizens and, for example, within the context of marriage equality, we should have equality of opportunity [00:06:00] like any other New Zealander. So, um, that's really what drives me. Um, and it is about creating a legacy and continuing to build on the legacy from those who have come before us. So that, uh, the people who come in front of us or in the future, um, don't have to endure what other, uh, generations have, which is discrimination, which is hatred, Uh, which is, um, degradation of our identity. Uh, which is, um, [00:06:30] I believe feed into, um, our youth suicide phenomenon in some ways. So, yeah, we are going somewhere, and that somewhere for me, uh, is just equality. And can you think of any other ways to potentially decrease the amount of youth suicide that exists in queer communities? Um, well, I think that this bill will make a difference, because what it will say is that, uh, the state recognises and values and respects our homosexual community [00:07:00] and our non heterosexual community. Uh, is, um I like to call us ordinary citizens. Actually, we don't need any special privileges. We just want to be treated, uh, like everybody else. So I think if we have that macro environment where the state is saying, um, we won't discriminate against any citizen Uh, yes, that will have some flow on effects. Um, what those will be will be interesting. But you know, what I'm hoping is that, uh, young people will be supported much more in [00:07:30] their sexual self determination. Uh, that young people will be able to go to the school board with their partner like it won't be a big deal, uh, that young people will be able to talk about in a very natural way. Uh, the fact that they are attracted to, um somebody of the same gender. And it's not going to be, um or then provide a focus point for them to be bullied and harassed. So that's what I'm hoping. What do you think of the wording of the current Human [00:08:00] Rights Act and with regards to gender and gender identity? Yeah, that's really interesting, because when um, Georgina Baer was a member of Parliament here, she did propose that in addition to sex and sexual orientation, we should add gender identity to the list of, um, areas that you can't discriminate against. Uh, and there was a crown law opinion, in fact, that sex and the broader definition of sex actually included gender identity. Um, but you would have seen from my bill that I have, [00:08:30] uh, been very clear that marriage is between two people, regardless of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. So, in fact, my bill has broadened it to specifically include gender identity. And I've done that because I think there is recognition. Well, certainly from from me, uh, that this isn't a same sex marriage bill, because in fact, it's about people. And it's about the the person and the full person [00:09:00] not being confined to two sexes. And that's always been the point from some of our intersex trans community members that they are really vulnerable because we kind of have this binary, uh, view of sexuality and that that doesn't fit. It doesn't fit how they think about themselves. It doesn't fit. Um, I guess in a in a modern world where I think people are a lot more willing now to share and who they are, which means you kind of have a range and people like money [00:09:30] where I've seen documentaries about her being a hermaphrodite. But that's, you know, that whole binary, uh, gender, Um, and it's kind of like you're ascribed at birth to either be one or the other. Um, but my bill was always about being incredibly inclusive and not excluding anybody. And I think that's why when people want to say that my bill is about gay marriage, actually it isn't. It is about marriage equality in its purest form, because it's about two people who [00:10:00] want to who love each other who want to commit and to form a family, which for me, is the basic unit in society. And, um, do you think that the word of the Human Rights Act needs to change in order to be more inclusive of people that are gender variant? Um, I? I guess we we have to come to as a community as an appreciation, Um that, um I guess our world evolves all the time and, you know, is gender identity [00:10:30] going to be the term that satisfies all our community? But I'm really happy to continue to have the conversation with our community about whether or not it does need to be added because we do have sex and sexual orientation. And if gender identity is something that our community think that we should be pushing for Yeah, then we we should be having discussions about that. Um, I I'm not sure where the community is. And after Rina proposed it and there was the crown war opinion, it was almost like, Oh, maybe we don't have to, [00:11:00] um but it would be really interesting. Um, yeah, to get the Human Rights Commission position on it, and in fact, whether they think that it needs to be specifically included. And from my perspective, I really want to know whether our communities still want it. Because the motivation for Georgina putting, um, that members Bill, uh, as a, um, as as legislative change came from the fact that she was reflecting some of that gender identity community, uh, and [00:11:30] their want or desire to have to make it specific and, um uh, over in terms of the ground, So yeah, but do you do you know, have you talked to some groups? Do you think it is something that our community want? Um, I think personally, knowing a lot of, um, trans and gender people that it is quite a quite a big deal to quite a lot of people in situations. OK, well, that's that's that's really important. So, yeah, we need to listen to our community. [00:12:00] Um, you said before that you have a same sex partner. Um, do you find yourself treated differently at public engagements because of that, or are people surprised? Um, well, not really anymore. I I've been in the public now for a few years, and so most people know, um and in fact, what's become really, um, lovely is probably the best way to describe it. I I've just recently been invited to the Stein Lager rugby awards, which are happening in December, and they've invited me and [00:12:30] my partner Prue, and you know, that's really lovely. So, um, I think no people aren't surprised. And in fact, it's not a big deal. You know, I just think that, um yeah, there is no reason for um us to be treated any differently to any other couple. And in fact, yeah, I don't I don't think it's a big deal in modern New Zealand. I mean, The reality is because we're 26 years post homosexual law reform. People are able [00:13:00] to live open free lives. Um, we do in the community has responded by embracing and accepting. And so, yeah, I think we're in a really good space. And I I am personally, um, but I wouldn't know if I'm not. Haven't been invited to events because I am and will be bringing my female partner. It's hard to say, but the ones that I have been know and when they do know, they have completely embraced who I am, which is fantastic. So, uh, who [00:13:30] are your queer heroes? Um, when I was growing up, um, and the first lesbian, um, that just Oh, I thought she was awesome. Was Martina never? Because I love sport. Um, you know, I grew up in a household where my dad and I would get up to watch Wimbledon, and, um, yeah, she was amazing. So I got this book and then found out she was a lesbian, and and, um, I think when I did, though, I didn't realise I was lesbian, But she was my [00:14:00] first lesbian role model. Um, I don't really have many lesbian role models other than, um, for me personally, I've I've been through Massey University, and I ended up doing a master of philosophy and social policy, And Marilyn Waring was my, um, master's supervisor, and she's kept in touch, and actually, she's a really good, um, person for me to talk to. And so I would consider her a mentor. [00:14:30] Um, so I would I would highlight that Marilyn or Professor Marilyn Waring is somebody who I will, um, always have something to do with. And so I respect her and the work that she's done specifically advancing the rights of women. Um, but also our LGBTI community. Yeah. Um, so do you think that it is harder to be in the underrepresented minority that is queer people in Parliament or the underrepresented group that is [00:15:00] women in Parliament? They really, um, really interesting and good questions, because I do think that, um, being a minority and being marginalised, um, means that sometimes you experience generic discrimination. But then there is specific discrimination. Um, based on other dimensions of who you are. Are they the same? Not always. Um, but fundamentally, they are underlined by power relationships. Um, [00:15:30] I I guess from the people who are perpetuating the discrimination. Um, they have power and it is abusive, and it's unacceptable. Um, is one worse than the other? Um, I think it depends on the context because sometimes I think, um, minority groups can marginalise each other, which is an irony in itself. But sometimes it's we're kind of set up like that. It's almost like I won't call it a primal instinct. But you kind [00:16:00] of have competition always. And so you're always gonna have white men at the top and the current societies and how current societies are ordered. And then I guess, a hierarchy sometimes, but not always, because it changes in different contexts. So, um, and I'll just talk about one briefly. I went, um, over to Uganda earlier this year as a member of the International Parliamentary Union, Um, gathering and I was one of three representatives from New Zealand who went, and there's a a concerted effort now internationally [00:16:30] within those international political context for a concept called gender mainstreaming. And so in that context, um, I think that there's a global recognition that women, um, are underrepresented and they're doing stuff about it but they're not doing anything about rainbow parliamentarians or indigenous parliamentarians. And so I do think at the moment there's kind of a global consensus that we have to address the underrepresentation democratically [00:17:00] of women, which is good. So I probably would say that, uh, yeah, rainbow LGBTI, but also indigenous peoples. And then you'd have other people, um, or ethnic groups who are more marginalised in context, like parliament. And you can look at the numbers for that. You know, we've got 32% representation of women. Um, I think there's 17% representation of Maori, and then you've got to look at what? Our ethnic? Um yeah, ethnic, um, Pacific. And then [00:17:30] LGBTI representation is, um So what was your high school experience like and like in terms of being queer, Well, that's probably where I had a really different experience because, you know, if if I reflect back, I probably knew that I was attracted to I didn't know. I was attracted to, um, women when I was 12. Um, but I got in the New Zealand netball team when I was 17, and I started playing senior netball when I was 14. And so [00:18:00] my sexuality, in a way was, um, not my priority. My priority was to play netball and become a silver fern. And so I didn't come out at high school. I came out when I was, um, 21 and I came out. And for me, it was, um, a process of consciously being a consciously knowing and then acknowledging, um, my [00:18:30] sexuality, if that makes sense. So I didn't have role models who were lesbian. And to be fair, the whole Martina thing is I didn't realise she was lesbian When I first, um, had a crash or whatever you wanna call it with her. She was just this amazing tennis player who I aspired because I love sport. Um, and so intellectually, when I realised oh, my goodness, I'm lesbian And the how I figured out my sexuality was by buying a book. And I read [00:19:00] this book about sexuality, and it was kind of all the different, um, stages of life and the biology. And then this. There was a chapter in it called lesbianism, and I was reading it, and I was thinking, Oh my God, that's me. So it was kind of more of an intellectual recognition and then once I knew, knew because up to then I'd had boyfriends. But when I knew you, then you can't really go back. And, um, for me, because sports this incredibly honest domain like sport, I believe [00:19:30] is the most honest context in the world. Because if you don't put in the work, you get caught out on the sports field because you won't win because you haven't prepared enough. And so once I knew, then that was it. So I just was out pretty much and got my first, um, uh, female partner when I was 21 and my first relationship lasted for we were in our 10th year when we broke up. So yeah, and are you glad you came out publicly? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. [00:20:00] I wouldn't have had it any other way. I couldn't live any other way. I mean, um, I had a good coming out experience. So, um, my parents when I told them my mom cried, my dad said, I love you, but do you understand you're choosing this identity. That will mean there will be people who will discriminate against you. And I pretty much said no, Dad, I'm not choosing it. This is who I am, Um, but discrimination. I guess I'll have to deal with it if it comes. He thought I would. But in the same breath, he was saying, There seems to [00:20:30] be a lot more people who are out these days lawyers, doctors, sort of in the community that have met the identity as being mainstreamed, if that makes sense and and for for today, um, and and young people of today I love modern family, you know, I love Grey's Anatomy. I love in Arizona and actually a lot of people who watch that show well, and so I think, for for this generation of of New Zealand and probably right across the globe, we're [00:21:00] being normalised. Our identity is being normalised. And so yeah, it's. And I do think, too, that it's kind of cool to be gay. In a way, I don't know what you feel like. You're a young person today, but I think if you can get past high school where it might not be so cool when you get to university or if you're a young adult, I think it's much easier. And I don't know if that's right or not. But can you think of any reasons that anyone would choose not to come out in the public eye, such as Parliament? Oh, absolutely. [00:21:30] And it's usually related to family and community. Um, but it also could relate to another valuable belief system that they've grown up in, whether it be church or some other group, where they're made to feel, um, like their identity or somehow compromise their religious belief. And I hope that, um, whatever context people are in, that they're supported and that there are people in there who will care enough for them to [00:22:00] allow them to determine all of themselves, which includes the sexual, um, identity in a really positive, nurturing, respectful way. But I think a lot of suicide of young people happens because, um, our young people just don't see a way out. Can't tell their parents can't tell anyone within this circle because they might compromise or disappoint or, um, yeah, so [00:22:30] I can I can totally understand it. I don't think anyone should ever be altered. I mean, people will need to make those decisions themselves because they live with it, and they understand the community that they live in. But, um, I'm hoping through my bill, though, because there has been so much talk about it that it will create spaces for people to even say I don't even know, But I'm a little bit confused. What are my options? And then it will be about, I don't know, meeting somebody. [00:23:00] And the chemistry happens and, you know, So, um, yeah.
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