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How long have you been an MP? I was first elected in November 2008. So we're just coming up to four years now? A bit of a while, then, um, have you been out that whole time? Absolutely. Yeah. No, I was I was elected as a as a, um, out MP. And, um, you know, been in terms of my longer political life and that it's been part of who I am forever. And for a long time, Publicly. So So you were out before coming into the public eye? [00:00:30] Yeah, definitely. So, um, I kind of, uh, I guess came to terms with my you know, who I was and my sexuality, as in my late teens And, you know, and my friends have always known And I guess as as you get into the public arena, these things are are mentioned. And so it's never been something I've had at all. Um how has your private life had to change? You know, adjusting to the public art. Oh, you start to realise the more you're in politics and [00:01:00] the more you do that that people are very interested in your whole life, not just what you might think politically. So I'm very conscious now when I'm out in public that people know who I am. And so I'm a better and safer driver than I probably was before then. And it does affect a little bit. Um, you know, my partner and I have had a few experiences of people kind of coming up and talking to me and sometimes not always being that, um positive. And that's not great. So you do have to kind of manage your social [00:01:30] life a little bit just to acknowledge that Yeah. Um, how do you deal with those sorts of Oh, you've just got to be in a position to be, I think, just be calm and And if somebody is raising legitimate questions or asking things and the situation is OK, then I'm happy to answer them. If someone comes up to you on a Saturday night when you're obviously watching the rugby on the TV at the pub and it's not really appropriate, I just try to say to somebody, Look, can you come and see me next week? And I usually give them my card or whatever and say, Here's the number you can ring. And I'm happy to see you next week and talk [00:02:00] about this. Try and diffuse it a little bit. Do they tend to, um, take you up on your offer? Not generally. Interestingly, not not as much follow up as there might be. But But there are people who do. Um, you know, if I'm at the supermarket or whatever, people often come up and just have a few words, and that's fine. I mean that to me, that's part of being an MP. Is that you? You've got to be accessible and available and and there When it Yeah, When it's somebody who might have had a few too many drinks on the Saturday then, I think, Yeah, they They can probably wait till Monday to work out whether they really need to talk to me or not. [00:02:30] Um, you said before that you started to come out in your late teens. Um, what was your high school experience like? It was OK, uh, I I ended up being the head boy of my, um, high school and, you know, and I played rugby and I did all those sorts of things and and I had some pretty big personal difficulties. Sort of going through what now? What called year 12? Um, you know, year 12. Particularly as I was kind of grappling with my with who I was. And so, [00:03:00] you know, I had some really down very dark, depressing times personally. But that wasn't so much to do with my high school. I wasn't being bullied or anything like that about it. It was more me dealing with it myself. Um and I you know, I enjoyed my high school years. I had a really good circle of friends and and but I, I guess I as I managed myself how I thought about who I was that had some impact. And I In my seventh form year, I kind of knew that I was [00:03:30] gay. But I, I didn't and close friends started to find out. Oh, I didn't know. But I, I didn't, you know, make it make anything public about it. I left that until I actually finished at school. And did you face any homophobia in high school or anything? A little bit. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, there was, um, one or two people who probably worked it out, and there was a little bit of that from people. Yeah, but because I wasn't really out as such. I mean, [00:04:00] you know, I wasn't in a in a sort of public sense out as a teen. As a high school, it didn't really have that big an impact. But there were certainly people, and, you know, it's it's incredibly, and I imagine it's no different today for people trying to deal with that. Um, in those teenage years where things are, there's a real heightened sense of, of, of the importance of who you are and your friends and your school. And it's a really hard period to manage. And I did struggle with it personally. Definitely. [00:04:30] Um, but that wasn't really didn't play out in the public arena so much. Um, was there any, uh, queer education when you were in high school? Absolutely not. No, um, this is the mid 19 eighties or mid and late 19 eighties, and there was no there was nothing. We I don't recall it ever being discussed at all in at high school. And can you think of, um, anything that we could do to maybe lower the youth? Um, queer youth suicide Oh, absolutely, Look. [00:05:00] And I think it's It's incredibly important that we talk to people to teenagers about, um, people being able to to make their own decisions and that they that there is a there is support for them, that this is something that, um is is fine for them to be able to deal and manage with. And we basically need good role models, and we're getting more and more of those role models. You know, the, you know, I mean, not just politicians, but, you know, people like coffee and that being [00:05:30] publicly, you know, out there showing the support for causes like Rainbow Youth and that kind of thing, it's actually really important to be able to do that. But we've got we've got to support young, particularly young men, because that's where the suicide rate, um is it can be as you know, I mean, it's bad for women and men, but I think we've got to be able to provide people with with the positive messages about where their lives can go. The one thing I can remember from how I felt as [00:06:00] a teenager was that I couldn't really see beyond where I was. And that's the problem with youth. Suicide, particularly for queer people, is not being able to see beyond that, you know, the the message and that the, um the campaign that was done in the US about it gets better. You've seen that campaign. Now here, um that is that is get better. Message is is the core of it for me? Because it does. But when you're in that space, you don't feel that [00:06:30] way. And I didn't as a as a sort of 16 year old, I didn't know that there was a way out for me, you know, And I drank too much, and I and I reacted how I did. Personally, other people react in other ways, and we've got to be able to get the message across to people that there is a positive path forward for you. Role models play a huge part in that, um, you were talking before about, um, the youth suicide rates being higher for men than young women. Um, do [00:07:00] you think that it's harder to be, uh, an out queer man or an out queer woman in in public? Um, I think I I can't really answer that question because obviously, I don't have the experience of being an out queer woman. I think I think there is, uh, still challenges and a degree of prejudice for all, um, people who come out in that way. What I do know is that the we still in New Zealand have a culture for men and boys [00:07:30] that would make it hard. And so I guess that I'm really speaking from my own experience there, uh, that, uh, that there are cultural aspects that that make it more more challenging, maybe for for men. But I don't have the experience from the other side. And I'm sure if, um, you were sitting here with a with a a lesbian woman, they can talk to you more about that. But so, um, you you just said about the culture around, Um uh, men do. Can you think of ways that that could change? [00:08:00] Possibly for the well, I think one of the things we've got to do is is let people be who they are, and I think we've got to encourage and support the fact that there is success in a lot of different areas, and I actually think schools are getting better at this. You know, I went to a single boys school and I now spend some time in single sex boys schools around Wellington and around New Zealand. And I do notice that there is a lot more encouragement of of other kinds of activities outside of just playing [00:08:30] rugby. I mean, I did play rugby, so it was fine for me. But outside of just playing rugby, there are actually some some greater level of options for people. So I think one of the things we've got to do is is open all of that up and say, you know, success can come in many different forms and we need to make the culture of of being in a in a school to be inclusive of the diversity of people and provide the diversity of options. You know? And I think in other, you know, places, things like [00:09:00] the the gay straight alliances that have developed have been great where they've developed, you know, because I think that really gives people some ownership of of of the kind of diversity issue within schools. So I think those sorts of things should really be encouraged. I think having Rainbow youth come into schools is really good and positive as well. So there's lots of things we can kind of do to break that kind of cultural stuff down. Uh, but, you know, there's there. There are gonna be barriers and challenges for people along the way. You talked before about, [00:09:30] um, faith and homophobia when you were out in the public eye. What about in Parliament itself? Is there anything that Not really No, it's actually been pretty good. There was. There were a couple of comments to kind of interjections thrown across the chamber on one particular occasion, which, you know, would be in the category of homophobia, um, directed at me. Uh, but other than that, no. And in fact, I've been, you know, I think it's a huge change. You know, I remember [00:10:00] talking to Chris Carter when I first became an MP. And he when he was the first out gay male MP in 1993. You know, he had dreadful stuff said to him and John Banks was here then as a national MP. And whenever Chris would get up, he'd put papers in front of himself. So, you know, he didn't have to look at Chris and things terrible things would get yelled out and I'd call them Christine and all this kind of things. So things have changed a lot in the intervening 19 years. Um, which is good. [00:10:30] Uh, there's the odd moment that's not so much. Maybe about parliament and being an MP. But, you know, getting invited to functions or whatever. And people making assumptions about about my partner, if I have one, will be a female and that kind of thing. Um, you know, there's that sort of latent homophobia that kind of sits behind a lot of, uh, what's going on, but, um, overall, it's been it's actually been OK. And how do you deal with statements [00:11:00] that are thrown across? Oh, look, I tend to try and confront the person, um, pretty much directly. I don't think there's any point in Not and I did on that particular occasion. Uh, just make sure the person aware that I was aware of what they said and that I didn't find it acceptable. So I think that's what you in my position, like, I've got that. It's what you need to do. Um, do you think that your sexuality affected whether or not people voted for you? That's a really interesting question. Um, I suspect for some people it might [00:11:30] have. I certainly got some letters. And so on, immediately after I was elected one couple in particular one in particular and another one that alluded to it where clearly it had affected those people in a negative way. Um, but I don't think in general it has. I think that, uh, in Wellington Central particularly. It's a very inclusive and tolerant uh, electorate. And I think, um, it certainly wasn't a major issue for most people. And I think [00:12:00] now, hopefully people are judging me on whether I'm a good MP or not. Um, regardless of my sexuality, I was reelected with a a much bigger majority than the one that I had when I first got in. So that was good. There was a little bit of a kerfuffle around. Um, the initial my initial election in 2008 because my opponent was a, uh, national opponent was a guy Steven Franks. And he had made some comments which previously, when he'd been an MP, which got a bit of publicity during the election campaign. He he famously [00:12:30] said during the Civil Union debate, He said, Um, I love my dog, but that doesn't mean I should be able to marry it. And that got raised during not by me but by some other people got raised during the the campaign, Um, that, uh, that we had in that court and it ended up long story. But he end up getting on to, uh, some footage of us having a bit of a discussion about it at a meeting ended up on TV. And, you know, there was some issues that kind of floated [00:13:00] around around that, But that wasn't so much about me as about him and his views. So I think Wellington Central is a place where that I don't think it really has affected my vote. In general. Of course, specific people may well have concerns, but so be it. Um, are there any positive experiences that have come from being queer in Parliament? Oh, look, Heaps, you know, I mean, one of the things is that we you know, we, uh you know, I get to and as a result of that, I get to interact [00:13:30] with all sorts of really interesting groups and people. On Saturday afternoon, I was asked by a group called Agenda New Zealand, which is the Trans support group. Um, that operates, um, nationwide to come. And they they had some issues in the group and they wanted someone to be an independent chair of of their group, um, for their annual general meeting. And I came in and did that. And, you know, by doing that, you learn so much about other people's lives and other people's experiences. And so I think it's been from that point of view, it's [00:14:00] been great. Um, you know, And I guess the other bit is knowing that you can act as a role model for people. And, you know, there was a guy who who wrote to me some time back who who I've sort of had a little bit to do with who was who was coming out as a teenager and interested in politics and for someone you know, for him to write to me and say, Hey, it's great that you're there, and I kind of know that I could have a path through to this if I wanted to that kind of thing is really great, too, to have people, [00:14:30] um, say that kind of thing as well. Um, and so you're glad that you publicly came out then? Well, for me, it's It's a no brainer because, um, it's who I am. So I'm not. I'm completely happy and comfortable with who I am. And so it's just part of me. I never want to be a person who's judged solely on their sexuality. That's not why I'm in politics. I got into politics because I believe in the values of equality and social justice and opportunity for everybody and the other values of the [00:15:00] Labour Party. Uh, that's why I'm here. I I'm a politician who is gay. Um, I'm not a gay person who's a politician, so you know, that's that's how I see it. Um, and I'll always stand up for the rights of of the Rainbow Communities because for me, that's part of the quality and part of of the values that drive me. So I'm, uh, you know, coming out was something I did a long time ago. Um, and it's just part of who I am now, and I I've [00:15:30] never hidden it and never tried to hide it. And, um, I'm happy to be judged for all of who I am, part of which is this And, um, do you know of any other not out queer politicians? Um, yes, I do. And that's it's that obviously, is a decision that they have to make, Uh, and you can't know someone's personal circumstances in that way. I [00:16:00] would I would hope that we lived in a world where a person could just be who they were in politics as they are in any other part of their life and doesn't feel that there's anything holding them back. Um, so I But I can't judge for the people. I do know exactly why it is that they perhaps aren't out. Part of it, I suspect, will be that people don't want to be judged on the basis of their sexuality. They want to be judged on other things. As I say for me, I don't want that either. But I don't see [00:16:30] that those things are mutually exclusive. I think people can be comfortable that they know who you are and and, um, and still judge you on the range of your abilities, and so you don't think that's necessarily a legitimate concern? Um, I'd hope it wasn't, um but, you know, as I say, you can't actually necessarily judge exactly on you know what someone's own circumstances are. So I can't say for sure why a particular person might might not be out. Um, do you think that New [00:17:00] Zealand queer people are underrepresented in Parliament? Um, I don't know. Uh, always happy to see more I. I think we do pretty well, to be honest. I mean, we've currently got, um, representation within, you know, Labour and the greens and national, you know, or be it through somebody who who doesn't really want to talk about it much at all. In terms of Chris Vinson. Um, so it's, you know, I think we're doing OK. Um [00:17:30] but, you know, obviously, the more the merrier. And but again, you know, inside the Labour Party, what we're looking for are are good MP S who can represent the values of the Labour Party, and we're not going to judge them on their sexuality. We're gonna judge them on their abilities. And, you know, that's hopefully you know, where people will feel that they can come into politics and see a party that will do that. And what do you think needs to change in New Zealand for more [00:18:00] queer people to be interested in politics? Well, I do think it comes back to that point of the of as a society as a whole, valuing difference, valuing diversity, Um, that we support a culture where we allow people to be who they are and succeed as in as who they are. That's not really about politics so much. That's about New Zealand as a whole, and then people feeling comfortable that they can come in. The other thing is more general to politics, which is that it is. It's a tough life in terms of your family and and you know you do. Your [00:18:30] family are automatically dragged into a more public place. And for a lot of people, that's just not where they want to go with their lives. You know, my partner is a reasonably private person. He's not somebody who would see the limelight, um, in in the way that I guess I have And so, you know, trying to keep that those boundaries is actually struggle for all politicians, but I guess it would be even more so potentially for for queer ones coming in. So yeah, And who are your queer heroes? [00:19:00] Um, I've got, uh my main political one is Harvey Milk, which won't be a surprise to anybody. I don't think, um because he's, um you know, anyone who breaks ground and and shifts boundaries, I. I admire tremendously. Um, you know, and the the the attribute of courage that people like Harvey Milk showed is great in New Zealand, You know, all of those who've gone before me in politics and I mentioned in my maiden speech, you know, I mean, I've had my issues with [00:19:30] Chris Carter subsequently and the issues he had with the Labour Party. But I still really admire Chris for being the first really out MP that we've had, um, by Marion Street for being the first out lesbian MP in Parliament as well. Um, Tim Barnett, who made giant strides in getting a lot of the legislation pushed through as well, uh, and particularly Georgina Byer, because Georgina, as a as the first trans MP in the world, had to break [00:20:00] ground and face huge challenges and and you know, didn't have all of the things go her way in her political career, but again broke ground and and had, you know, showed real bravery and courage to to do that. But there's all sorts of people. You know, The other day, I was just reflecting with the and what is it now? The 14th anniversary of Matthew Shepherd's death in the States. You know, now you know, Matthew isn't a hero as such, but he's somebody, you know, I look at I look at people [00:20:30] like that, and I think there is a huge amount of to work for, so yeah, but there's lots of people. I mean, I've got lots of people I've met in my life who I think have been brave and courageous, particularly older couples, people who work through the homosexual law reform, um, period, who who, When home security was illegal? Um, you know, so lots of heroes. The heroes aren't always the big public figures. Uh, they're often just the people who've gone about their lives and and and showing bravery and courage [00:21:00] along the way. Um, what do you think about the wording of the Human Rights Act when it comes to, uh, trans people. Yeah, it's an interesting one. So when when we were in in government, Georgina buyer had a bill to explicitly recognise, um Trans, you know, trans people in terms of the act. What what the Human Rights Commission came back and said was, we interpret the language to include trans people. Where [00:21:30] we're probably at is to say, Well, that's good. So that means that where there is discrimination, that that the Human Rights Commission would say, Well, we're already considering them. I don't personally think there is any harm in recognising it explicitly, and it really don't you know, sexual orientation, gender identity are not the same thing. And, you know, we know that. And so while legally it's covered, I could certainly say that personally, I can see the argument for that language changing here. Um, what [00:22:00] can the queer community do to support queer politicians? Oh, look, I think I think the queer community do already. I don't think there's anything that really needs to change. I mean, again, I'm not expecting someone just because they're gay to vote for me or vote for Labour that people will have their own views and one of one of the real strengths of I believe of, of the queer community is that recognition of the diversity within the community, that there are gay rugby players and gay plumbers and gay ballet dancers and gay artists, and and that's great. [00:22:30] And that's for me is a really important thing. So I think I'm not really expecting anything particular from the community in terms of supporting me as a politician, where I think it's important is where there issues come up that are important to the community, the community mobile around them. So if it's marriage, equality or recognition of trans community or whatever, that the community mobilises on those issues and does the work to support, um, those issues, I'm I'm much more keen on that than worrying about whether we're being particularly [00:23:00] supported or not. And what kind of support do you get from the great, You know, I mean, in in terms of particularly here locally in Wellington, you know, I mean, I know a lot of people in the in the queer community, and I've had really good and strong and positive support.
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