AI Chat Search Browse Media On This Day Map Quotations Timeline Research Free Datasets Remembered About Contact
☶ Go up a page

Georgina Beyer profile [AI Text]

This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.

Well, I was born, and it sort of started from there, I guess. Um, the circumstances, um when I was born, um, my father worked at, uh, in the New Zealand police at the time, and, um, I think was stationed at, um, Taranaki Street police station. Um, then, uh, my mother was trained nurse training. I think through Bowen and other hospitals like that. They [00:00:30] lived in Dundas Street in and, um, I was born, and but by about three months or more, you know, maybe six months old, Certainly before I was a year old. Um, their marriage went on the rocks because my father was a compulsive gambler and he had stolen £18 from the lost and found at the Taranaki Street police station [00:01:00] and got caught. And I was made an example of and convicted and jailed. And, um, when he went into jail, my mother was pregnant again, and, um, and suddenly she was left solo. You know, um, at that time, So I was put into the, um um So, uh, the Salvation Army home in Newtown or something? Somewhere at the time to be looked after they had a facility. Um, there and, [00:01:30] um, I think she must have proceeded with that, uh, next pregnancy. And, um, but arranged for that child to be adopted out at birth. And, um, with my father's consent, But he was on side, and then she divorced him. And so she got it sorted, so to speak. In the meantime, she was not very happy with the care of me, uh, being undertaken at the home that, [00:02:00] um, I was put in and she had persuaded her parents in Taranaki to look after me. And, uh, so that's where I went and was and stayed there essentially until I was about four or five. And by that time, um, she had remarried to Colum buyer, and, um, and as soon as that happened, she recalled me from her parents, and I went to live in the family home at that time, which was in Victoria Street in Upper hut. And [00:02:30] he had freshly, um, you know, what do you call it qualified as a lawyer. And, um, so on and so forth was starting out in practise and, um, and involved with people like, um, colleagues, friends, school friends and stuff from Wellington College days. Briley and co. And indeed, Colin, my stepfather, his brother Trevor, Ron Briley and various others, um, established what became Briley investments, amongst [00:03:00] other things. And, um mhm. So that was the family unit. We moved to Crofton Downs. Um, after my brother half brother was born Andrew, who was born in 1963. And, um, I went to, um, primary school, uh, went to Wellesley Preparatory College for Boys and Bay for two years, one year as a boarder the last year. [00:03:30] And, um, and then that second marriage My mother and, uh, whose name is Noeleen, None buyer. And, uh um, and Colin, They also had a marriage break up. And, uh, after that, mother and Children moved to Auckland. Can you describe yourself as a child? Oh, best to ask others. Um, I suppose for observations, um, [00:04:00] for want of a better term, my trans sexuality began mis manifesting at about four years of age through, um, play, I guess. Um when I was on the farm up in Taranaki with my grandparents, the only friend of my age was a girl who lived down the road called Joy Mackel down. And we played together a lot you know, as kids, you know, the farm is just down the road, as you do. And I used to love driving into her [00:04:30] dress up box. And, um, and, you know, we'd play, you know, as kids I talking, you know, 345. You know, kids playing and, um, and that kind of thing. And put on the, um what would you call it? Exhibitions in front of the adults when they had had a few beers at the end of haymaking day or something like that, you know, And it was that cute, and the kids would run around doing that, and I'd sort of be in some old or something, [00:05:00] and they all laughed and enjoyed that, you know, and stuff like that. But I sort of continued with I, you know, keep being effeminate, I guess. And, um, so by the time I was a bit older, um, you know, 78, you know, so still doing that behaviour? It was starting to be frowned upon and, um, you know, and told to stop doing it and so on and so forth. The conditioning. Oh, my God. [00:05:30] We got to queer some on our hands Christ, we better start conditioning them, Um, you know, and, uh, you know, it's like you can't blame them. Really? Um, so I guess on the more serious side of things, what I'm saying is, as I began to detect that their behaviour was unacceptable. And so I started to be more. I started to be more secretive about it because it wasn't worth the punishment that would come with it. So when I was, you know, getting caught, uh, you know, a bit of a, you know, hiding, [00:06:00] I suppose. Call them on occasion, especially when I persisted and got caught out because I was too dumb. But I became very secretive about dressing up, waiting for times of aloneness and and all of that to be able to sort of, you know, sneak in and do it learning to replace things in my mother's wardrobe and stuff like that, precisely as I had found them. So that she wouldn't suspect, you know, um, or anything like that that I sort of tried on clothes and things [00:06:30] like that and then got bold enough to go marching outside of the house sometimes and down the road. And of course, the neighbours, Whatever would see the You don't go into the shopkeeper dressed up like that and not be noticed by a local shopkeeper who sees you every other day, you know, or what? In there. And, uh, yes, mother, You know, they'd find out and you get told off. So all of that kind of stuff, this wouldn't be unusual. Kind of sort of reactions that all of us in our various forms probably went [00:07:00] through of learning that what we were thinking was just quite normal for us is, is is not approved of and so suppress it and there and starts the, um, the incredible mountain to climb. After that. You don't know it until you're a bit older and worldly wise, and, um, and you capitulate. Or some kinds of behavioural problems begin to emerge. Not always overt, [00:07:30] but sometimes more introverted. You know, you just learn to shut down on things and avoid the ridicule. Avoid getting yourself into situations of of having the gay bash in heaven, You know, to your your little stop being a girl's blouse, You know, um and and that kind of stuff and we all would have tolerated it probably at some stage, you know. [00:08:00] Hm. It's easy in hindsight, to look back and sort of try and figure out why things happen at the time. You just cope, don't you? And, um, And I did so right up until you know, college. So by the time you get to high school and stuff like that and I guess having been to a, you know, a mix of state school and private school. I had a bit of both worlds, so to speak. Strangely enough, my first night at Wellesley College when I was, [00:08:30] uh when I boarded there, I was sort of strangely terrified. You know, I was a bit of a culture shock For what were 11, 12, 13, um, suddenly been put into this all boys school, and, um, temporarily I had to stay in a in a dormitory, which was for the senior kids, uh, form to, um uh, kids. And I couldn't remember. No, I won't. I won't put this on the record. I don't think it's necessary. Don't want to bring the school into disrepute, [00:09:00] but boys will be boys, you know. Oh, what are you doing? Oh, what's that? Um, I'll leave it there to the audience's imagination. Um, at that time, were you aware of any talk about either homosexuality or No, I think No, no, no, no. Those definitions didn't. It was just sort of, um I exuded [00:09:30] a behaviour that was disapproved of I suppressed it and, um and, you know, because they might have won the battle. But I'll fight the war. And until I read the little red school book, which we all did at the time, which was sort of a, um you know, a notable little weed publication that school kids got hold of. And I talked about things beyond, you know, about homosexuality and [00:10:00] bisexuality. They sort of defined sexual, you know, orientations, et cetera. Um, and it and it had other things like, you know, swear words. Anyhow, anyhow, it, um, sort of Suddenly it wasn't just man and woman. There was some alternative. So when I did sort of get my head around, um, that sort of stuff a little bit, I began to wonder where I fitted. And you would think one would naturally assume that you were a homosexual male, and, um, but [00:10:30] because otherwise had the battle. I guess with, um But I'm a woman or I'm a girl. I'm a female, You know, I'm always, you know, that If I was, you know, if it wasn't for a quirk of birth, um, and stuff like that, I would be, you know, And so the psychological with the physical reality, I suppose, and then more deeply, [00:11:00] was I attracted to men who were like that, and no, I wasn't. You know, I didn't. The perspective I had was was of a of a a more female, you know, sort of visceral reaction to attraction and stuff like that. So I don't get it off with gaming. And that may sound, you know, I don't That's not my preference, if you know what I mean. Um, straight, you know, you know, you know, in [00:11:30] that sense. So that puts you in a conundrum when you're that young. I'm wondering, Well, if I'm not a gay man and I'm not a woman, so what the fuck am I? You know, I don't feel right. Oh, yes. Physically, I'm so OK. I've got to be the man. And on the two occasions where I had a what you could call heterosexual sexual encounter, which was set up by well meaning school friends, um, at a school party, you know, and stuff like that. And, of course, he had produced [00:12:00] the goods because it would be gossiped about, you know, from the other participants, point of view as well. Um, and I hated it, Absolutely hated it. And, um, you know, from that, not the person or what, but but, you know, turn me right up. Oh, no, thanks. You know, I want the snatch. I don't want the snatch. Um, I'm on to snatch, just to put it, [00:12:30] sort of. I think you can print it. Um, when you were young, did you understand why your family was saying Oh, don't dress up. Don't I mean no? No, not at all. No. Um, we're talking sixties seventies here, so the knowledge of this kind of stuff was limited to Danny La Rue. You know, I think the most famous transsexual person in the world at that time had been Christine Jorgensen, who had had [00:13:00] the first sex change in the 19 fifties. So there was that There were others April Ashley and all of that who were famous sort of models and stuff, but, um, you know, really? They people, you know, it was in the general population. So and there was an indoctrination, Remember? You know, we were pretty conservative, Christian moral, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, good God, it was illegal. Um, you know, I mean, men were put into prison or not Just men. Gay people were put into prison, you know, two years. [00:13:30] Um, you know, something like that. Men who dressed as women weren't allowed to walk the streets like that. Um, you weren't allowed to wear things like, you know, sort of funny laws and things that required you were allowed to wear women's underwear. And you weren't, um, and men weren't allowed to be, you know, like the queens who worked in the shows in Auckland and stuff like that in the sixties and and all that cars, you know, and all of that sort of thing, uh, had to, um, [00:14:00] you know, walk in public spaces as men not dressed up and dragged, you know, to go from club to club or whatever it was, you know, to gig to gig really was what they were doing. And, um, and part of the lure in the drag entertainment scene at the time was that you didn't know that these, uh, beautiful exotic creatures were biological men, you know? And, uh, that's what I what I mentioned [00:14:30] before that in those days What terminology? Like female impersonators and drag queens. And, um, you know, and that was sort of that era. But I was too young. Of course I come in, tell, you know, at the end of that era, um, how did you go at school? I mean, were you bullied? Was it was it a positive experience? Because I took an interest some times at college, anyhow, in drama, [00:15:00] when anyone who did a sissy thing like that, you know, and because I was relatively useless at sports, the sports I was good at was tennis and swimming. But rugby and cricket, I hated them. And, um, I had to play them. So but anyhow, um, I think I learned the gift of the gab to get myself out of it. Yes, yes. There was a certain amount of peer pressure, I suppose, to conform. Um, and that wouldn't be unusual. A lot of people, you know, go through that, you know, at that time, and but I seem to have [00:15:30] a very good rapport with girls, and I was sort of a bit of a magnet if I say so myself. And, um, because I had no particular and probably posed no threat threat if there would have been such a, you know, unwanted advances and all that sort of thing just didn't come from me. Um, but we could have good yarn, you know, that sort of thing. So, guy friends could see me as a very good conduit to get to various, you know, girls. So I sort [00:16:00] of became a bit of a Dolly Levi. Really? Um, matchmaker, um, you know, And that made me cool with the guys because, well, you know, I get them on to that, and they sort of thought that I must have been some rampant stud. You know, the sort of Austin powers of the day. Oh, yeah, baby, Um, with the girls. So it was a quite a good facade, even though I did, um, um, theatre and doing a theatre. Like, um, I belonged to a theatre in Auckland for [00:16:30] a while. Um, when I was at college. And, um, and I guess it was a way of being able to wear costume and makeup and stuff like that and to step into roles and characters that could be, you know, gender indifferent or whatever in pantomimes and things like that, uh, where you might be the girl or whatever, the damsel in distress or whatever. So I'd seize those opportunities. Other than that, it was a way of sort of, um, also getting some positive reinforcement. Uh, if you were, if [00:17:00] you were at the good, you know what you did. And so I took to sort of doing that performing stuff, Um, like a bit of a duck to water, which I guess in later, life proved to be, you know, the beginnings of a very handy transferrable skill. And, boy, have I transferred in school over several careers. If I can put it that way. And, um but yes, this this escapism, I suppose, to be able to be who you, you know, really wanted to be while you had to live in this conformed [00:17:30] straight and moral time and world world society that you mixed in in order to preserve, um a a coping mechanism. I suppose so. You didn't have to deal with, uh uh, the ridicule, which you would get on a which would be the lessons learned. You know, I don't want to have to tolerate that. And, um and that wouldn't have been That wouldn't be unusual. A lot of people sort of would have coped with getting through that time until you got to the point where you pushed back [00:18:00] and started to stand up and say, Who the hell are you? You know, and start to become activist about it, and for me, I guess that came from being shoved into the street scene. Um, self inflicted, of course. Put myself into the, um you know, or ended up in the in the street scene as a way of surviving and then realising, um, that that's where people who are marginalised sometimes ended up living on the fringe of society. [00:18:30] You couldn't fully participate in, uh, regular life IE. So I've left school. Well, lots of 15 16 year olds left so themselves out of school usually walked into jobs. It was a relatively good time for employment and stuff like that. Um, but, uh, when people but you You know, when you turn up as a girl and they can see that you're a boy, Um and there's some issues, you know, arise. And I can remember going to, um And there [00:19:00] I am, you know, working at doing stuff at the club exotic and that, but, uh, that's what I mean, You ended up sort of being put folk funnelled toward that kind of lifestyle. Can you just describe for me? So you're you're going through high school? You're 15 16. Just describe in a bit more detail how you get from that to on the street. I was convinced even then that I wanted to be an actor [00:19:30] and I because I belonged to the theatre and theatre. I was going to high school, which also spawned, um, David Shearer and, um, Phil Goff and me and just say that as an aside, um and I became I got to know some people in Theatre Corporate in Auckland which you say [00:20:00] at the Mercury Theatre in Auckland, you know, these are professional theatres and, um, and theatre corporate by Raymond Hawthorne. People would know that, and, um and I was hanging around with, um those things, and and I had got into my head that that's really what I wanted to do. And I didn't really want to be at school anymore. And I got to the I had, you know, I became old enough to be able to sign myself out of school and much against my Oh, yes, my mother was furious. Um, I, I, um, sneakily I suppose you got cunning. Really? Um, [00:20:30] I arranged a school holiday job for the May school holidays to work at Helens Stones mens in. And, um and that is where I got a job. And while I in those those school holidays and while I was there, I persuaded that that I was going to leave school, the manager or the owner or whatever, um, to, um, see if he could extend the time I could work there. And I ended up getting, you know, three months or something like that, which I felt was enough to be able to in and sign myself out of school and then told Mother [00:21:00] you can imagine, um, there was a huge, um, upheaval about that, But I'd done it and I was able to call her bluff when you know you got the old. Well, if you're gonna live under my roof, you're gonna have to start and blah, blah, blah. She was furious and was quite sure that I'll be going back to school. But I didn't. And one day in, in a domestic argument, um, she sort of said, Well, you know, you can move out of here or something like that And I called her bluff [00:21:30] and did. And when I went around the road and boarded with a school friend and his family and when the parents got to talking, they just let me because my mother would have put it like that. Trouble is, um, I went and boarded with them for about a month or two until this job at O who Helen Stein's mens. We ran out, and by that time I'd be able to score another position at, um, Milne and choice [00:22:00] down at the bottom Queen Street in Auckland. In the meetings as a junior, you know, stuff like that. So I just got further and further away from home. I ended up flatting in Mount Albert with some people who worked there for a while, and um, still hanging around the theatre corporate scene. One of the friends I had from there was moving to Wellington to go to Victoria University, Had a room at the Victoria House hostel. And, um, and [00:22:30] I decided to go to Wellington, too, so that we could go to the drama school. And I just, um, sleep on the floor in his, um, Victoria house. You know, um, university hostel accommodation. I managed to hang out there for a couple of months without being detected as a person who wasn't actually a student at university. You know, Victoria House is a university hostel, and at this stage, you you're still George. Yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:23:00] Oh, yes. No. The, um uh, but not for long, but not for long. So, um oh, lots of things happened there. I actually went on after I went and boarded with Stuart Deviney, who's an actor and his wife at that time. And they had a, um, a house in Mount Street, just down from Victoria University. In fact, it was there when I started working as a night got this part time [00:23:30] job. Um, as a night porter at the Royal Oak Hotel and then met R. And so the the window to, um, uh, the gay world as it was in those days, um, opened up to me at that time, but I was pursuing acting and being with Stewart, of course, was helpful. Um, I did hang around and go and audition and stuff to get into drama school, but of course I was too young. But that didn't stop me from, um, hanging around like a groupie. Um, that drama school scene. So George Wey was teaching Ralph [00:24:00] McAllister. People like that were there, um, and various other actors. And when? And I went out to Avalon when they were having a an audition block, you know, to go because you you know, it was all very new out there, So they were just getting a lot of talent on the books and stuff like that. So, I I managed to sneak in the back door, so to speak, to get, you know, the video thing done and all of that and be down on the record. And that's how I got a bit of a part and close to home. Um [00:24:30] and, um mhm. So, yes, that school to them within 18 months. Oh, and also when I left Auckland And, um then, uh, to go down. And then as I began to see that I would be able to make a transition to being Georgina, Um, after I had been taken to, um, the balcony cars, Um uh, show [00:25:00] cabaret show that was on there and saw these queens who were on stage and stuff like that. And, um and that was pretty It wasn't a a major revelation. And, uh, that it's, you know, quite possible because they weren't just dr these. There was serious looking woman. They looked fantastic. And, um and this was the The gimmick, I suppose of the drag show and [00:25:30] drag act was that these people would be so beautiful and uns spring let me in a bed. But, you know, that was sort of the one of the curiosity factors of it. So you'd have this beautiful person who's performed for you and stuff like that, and then at the end of their act, they might take the wig off, You know, that that whole whole theatrical device and, um but to see them with breasts, you know, real breasts [00:26:00] and stuff like that was sort of Ah, OK, so this can be done. This isn't just some madness going on in my head here. This is possible. And, um, that I, you know, see somebody other than a Danny LA, you know, or some drag artist. Um, these are trans gender people. Not that they were called that in those days. Was it kind of madness going on in your head? I mean, were you still conflicted [00:26:30] in terms of what am I Who am I? No, no, no. I I'm afraid I I It's quite a hard view, really. I'm sort of lucky to take it. Um, it is what it is, and, uh, deal with it. Just just live with it. Um, that I'm going to get grief from, um, greatest, you know, from wider society is, um, a bit of a bitch, But I'll deal with it and, um, and stuff them. [00:27:00] You know, um, I'm not a bad person, you know, all of that sort of There was a fundamental sort of sense of entitlement. I suppose that could come from me that I'm just as much trying to be here as you have and you talk to me like that. So but But that odd thing of you know, you'd be dressed up in the day, You know, the Georgina walking down the street a little un naive and and sort of impact a bit O TT as an appearance and stuff like that, as as we did were inappropriate things at that time. Inappropriate, as in [00:27:30] a common type, you know, very loud. And and, yeah, you know, high high heels, all that sort of thing in the middle of the day, um, wandering down the street so you'd get mothers. You know, when you're standing at the street lights, who would sort of pull their Children that side of them as they looked at this creature standing next to them and, um, showing, you know, from that kind of year, and we just turn around and say, Oh, hi, you know, and and be everything that they feared you were going to be, [00:28:00] if you know what I mean, you know, sort of. Oh, well, you know, get over it. Um, you know, just deal with it and months off, and, um, I'd be strangely horrified, but wonderfully curious. You know, And that would be the dinner conversation that night. Oh, guess what I saw at the lights. Um, so there was that sort of God, you know, just of confronting, I guess those situations. But we could be over the top and, um, and quite antisocial, [00:28:30] be sometimes in our reaction to people just to sort of freak them out for the hell of it. But at that age, like when you're 16. 17, where does that kind of inner strength come from? Where, I mean, where does that? Well, because of the contact with the street scene, where, you know, you see other queens doing the street doing the corner and, you know, you just get, you know, into the culture. And so that whole thing of, uh, someone's going to look at you the wrong way or whatever like that. You, um [00:29:00] you don't tolerate it, you know, you just come back at them and some and and I have to, you know, confess that quite often it came across as a and, um, and a reason to be considered undesirable. And because, you know, you're wearing provocative clothing in the middle of the street. Uh, you know, down there and they know you're touting for business. If you're selling, you know, if you're looking for a client on the corner [00:29:30] or luckily, in my case, I got to work in, you know, strip clubs, you know, and and in clubs down on Vivian Street. And so I was in a venue, as opposed to having only the street and, uh out there to go and, um, earn money from cracking us as we call it. And, um and I guess when you learn and get introduced into that street life and it had it, you know, it can be a, um a quite brutal arena to be [00:30:00] in. And you either shape up or ship out. You know, you either. But on the other hand, there was a a social camaraderie and, um, common bond. I suppose you'd call it between the the street scene people because we all felt that we were out on these margins and which sort of gave us false really an excuse to be [00:30:30] everything they said we were. You know, in that sense, um, but society can take its own blame for that, for, um, you know, if you consider it a sort of We were only committing a crime because, um uh, then you ran into legal issues. Men couldn't be charged with being prostitutes. Prostitution wasn't, um, uh, sort of illegal, but soliciting [00:31:00] et cetera was and, um, but and it was common. And sometimes during her era, the odd court case that occurred that provided this gender conundrum for the judicial system to have to deal with. Um And then, of course, I'm racing ahead now, But in subsequent years, as things have become legalised and that a whole raft of sort of statutory, um, amendments have needed to be made on how to legally treat that, uh, corrections [00:31:30] at the moment is one of the worst offenders of, um, an outrage whereby, you know, preoperative transsexuals, for example, are put into the biological birth. Um, thing you know, in prison, men, men's or women's prisons. Anyhow, I That's another question, and I don't know if I've answered one properly. You have. I remember reading a quote from you saying that you never [00:32:00] wanted to make prostitution a career choice, but it was because society didn't allow you to have any other option in terms of in my experience. That's what happened. That's what happened. And I guess for many of my contemporaries at the time, and my predecessors, of course, um, who had inadvertently, by whatever way, but by means of survival, um, you know, provided a guideline to, um, being able to affirm who you were [00:32:30] and be who you are, Carmen. And people like her and others who provided venues and who provided jobs, no matter how they might be or whatever. But a certain form of protection for us. A camaraderie, a collective, um, where we belonged in our sort of venues that it happened to attract others. You know, who came [00:33:00] for curiosity factors a year, right? And a bit of sort of dodgy sex. Um um, and piqued the interest of the sort of glitterati of the day. You know, the sort of social set you know, who are going to be a bit naughty, you know, um, which is why, like Carmen and And that sort of did provide that now. So, you know, the moral Christian fundamentalists sort of. And conservatives sort [00:33:30] of find that, um, abhorrent, but, um, honey, if there was a register of all of them, that inadvertently. And of course, Carmen got hauled in front of the privileges committee for suggesting just such a thing. You know, Parliament. So it had some serious nature in the social and political view on how people like us, um, fitted in and, uh, [00:34:00] and so it wasn't easy. And, um so for the social and political pioneers, they were probably pioneers without knowing it at the time. They just pushed boundaries that were just considered socially antisocial. And you just pushed back and gradually peeled the layers until we find ourselves where we are today, aren't you? And for the likes of me and many others, Christ, I by no means the, um [00:34:30] you know, I'm an example of a piece of, uh, particular history, but, um, there are many others who have done things. And our inspirations, I guess, at the time were women had been feisty through the sixties. The women's movement. That was quite a good model. And the lesbian element of that that was vital and important. Uh, for that movement, um, feminism for want of a better term, um, in New Zealand social history and, uh, but helped to inspire, [00:35:00] I think other minorities to begin to, um, strive for their rights, human rights and equality in this country and start to, um, get the balance better than what it was. Can you recall as a teenager when you first came to Wellington and saw that there were, uh, people, you know, with breasts, where you know where, um, transsexualism was an option. What did you think? [00:35:30] I felt these people had an incredible, um, pride in many respects that despite disapproval, um, they were tall and proud, and they walked it, honey, and they were going to be who they are. And, um and they were They sort of seemed happy in their own way. Yes, it was brutal. Street life is, um, and there'd be fights over clients and drugs [00:36:00] and alcohol, and all of that kind of thing was just part and parcel of it. Um, and it was fun times the seventies, you know? And it was a good nightlife, a vibrancy in Wellington at that time in that particular geographic location of Vivian Cuba Street. And, um, and all of that. And Street still has that bohemian sort of alternative eclectic feel about it. And, [00:36:30] um, and of its era the, you know, the clubs that were down that street and, you know, and all that was, um, just part and parcel A bit of the colour, Really. It was quite colourful, relatively passive, I think from the we had, uh, you know, occasionally we'd we'd get, um, plucked by the cops just to, you know, cut it off down the police station and probably front up, you know, and get caught. And queens used to get charged [00:37:00] with, um and I did, uh, get charged with frequenting with Felonious intent deemed as a rogue and a bond. Um, I can assure you that law does not exist anymore. That is no longer an offence. And, um, I quoted it once in parliament during the prostitution reform debate, but that's what I got arrested for. But it was a revenue gathering exercise just every now and again because, um, and you'd have [00:37:30] to go up in front of the district court on a Monday morning or whatever like that, and you get fined 50 bucks, you know, with its cheap tax. Um, you know, really? You know. But, you know, they might have plucked you on a Friday night and so they'd leave you in the cells over the weekend with nothing, you know. But you know, the basics that you were given and for some, um, queens, sometimes to turn [00:38:00] up in front of the district court and the attire you head on from the previous Friday night. So you got no makeup on your beard, sprouted through. You look like crap. And now you got to suffer the ignominy of standing in front of a court and being addressed and so on and so forth and all of that sort of thing and called by your butch name. And even if you change your name by deed, polar bastards always felt that they otherwise now and as da da, da, da, da And, [00:38:30] um, that kind of humiliation as well. So, um, and get the fine, and then you'd be discharged. And, uh and that was that. So that was over a weekend. I know of other queens who had, you know, there were some cops at the time. Um, that would target them every now and again. And, um, but on a semi regular basis and give them a real hard time, just short of, uh, physical going over, you know, nasty, cruel stuff. And, um, and then let you [00:39:00] go. You just have to deal with them. You know, that was, uh, not saying it was right. But at that time, you know, you didn't have, you know who are you gonna go and complain to? There were no Human Rights Commission, and they sure as hell in it. It was like, where I went to live in Sydney for a year in, uh, 1979. And I got pack raped while I was over there. Um, not long after, I'd I'd I'd been there and with terrible experience, [00:39:30] but I didn't even think didn't even cross my mind that I should go and lay a complaint about it or anything like that, because I wouldn't get protection from the law or by the law. And who the hell was going to believe me? A slapper Maori drag queen from New Zealand squealing rape. Yeah, right. And that sort of, you know, was sort of some of the reality you just faced [00:40:00] at the time. Um, it took me quite a while to mentally get over that physically. You got over it and, um and then got over. And and that was that. And luckily, luckily, I didn't let it get me down. I mean, I wanted to, you know, suicidal. I thought, Oh, Christ, what is this life all about? And this is what's going to happen to me, and it's not worth it. It was, like, just pushed over the edge at that time. But luckily, I fell on the side of getting angry about it. Who [00:40:30] the hell? Nobody should have to deal with. That kind of, um, you know, abuse. Um, just in general. But the terrifying factor for me is I was preoperative. And while I was very attractive and uns spring looking queen or whatever, Um, there was a moment there where I was utterly terrified that when they discovered thought I had a cock, that they might kill me, [00:41:00] and they were just a little short of doing that still brutalised in there, but yeah, you know, So there was that whole sort of terror, and that was enough. I think you know, it was defining. It was sort of, you know, and I got angry about it. Thank God. Saying nobody's got a right. No matter what And, um, you know, to attack people like that and and all of that sort of thing got very angry and weren't allowed to to happen again and got over it. But, uh, what am I saying? [00:41:30] I put the fire in my belly to stand up against injustice like that, and because when I rationally thought about it, nothing was there to protect me. I couldn't go and complain anywhere and have some rest restorative or something happen here. Um and and that's just the way I felt that there was no lever for me in society have felt to, you know, for me and that experience, And so if that's me, how many others are having [00:42:00] to deal with that kind of conundrum? You know, at some at some point, probably heaps. So it began to sort of anchor. I got every bloody right to be here. And I've got every right to be able to be like everyone else. As far as existing is concerning. Why the hell do I have to put up with this? And I didn't want to live in the gutter. I didn't want to live down on the street. All the time I you know, I had ambition, I suppose, to get out of that scene. [00:42:30] It sort of secure, as it provided me with a with an experience of life. Way too young, I suppose, for a good five or six years or whatever that I was there before I began to be and getting out of it, getting out of being caught up in in that world which imbued me with certain, um, strengths and intuitions and street wise and street smarts. [00:43:00] Um, a way of operating, um, you know, and that sort of thing. But then to get out of that and into legitimacy was not easy. But I found it in a way, strange the way through, um, entertainment drag show, you know, or cabaret entertainment. You know, more things. And, um, I went to Auckland and I'm 84 and joined, [00:43:30] um, a drag show called Bloomers, which was working at Alfie's nightclub in Auckland. Well, we sort of started off the show at a and that had a long running residency there. And that was Auckland in the mid 19 eighties, which was sort of boom times ever champagne popping until 87. Of course, kept popping for us still after that. Because, you know, we've established ourselves very well in this, um, much beloved, um uh, Auckland [00:44:00] gay nightclub. And the gay scene up there is is one thing in bloom in the bloomer show. And while I was, um, in that show, um, in 1985 I got, um, approached. Oh, no, I'd I'd been arrogant enough or vain enough to think that I could get an agent while I was an Auckland acting agent. And I had put my name around a few agents at the day and one of them being Robert [00:44:30] Bruce, who was who had a well known agency called the Ugly agency. And, um and so my CV or my portfolio or whatever that I had accumulated at the time, um, I put forward anyhow. Long story short. It just so happened that a chap called Peter Wells and his partner, Stuart Mayne, were casting for a short film that they were going to make. Um and [00:45:00] it was about a transsexual and a transvestite, and the piece was called Juel da, which was a short story that had been adapted by a woman called Ann Kennedy who'd written it and won a listener short story award. She and Peter, I think we're going to make it into a screenplay. I did the audition, uh, for the part and got it. And, um, I yeah, so I did. [00:45:30] And, um, that turned out to be a Oh, a critically acclaimed short film. I'll put it like that. It got about five, nominations for the film and television awards and the ill fated go in 1987. But other than that debacle, um, the acknowledgement of that it was a good film. And actually, it was part of a half hour, um, series of dramas, um, that [00:46:00] Hibiscus films made for television that had been commissioned. Um, and they have about six or seven half hour, um, dramas for new filmmakers, writers, a new vehicle, I guess, for the talent of the day on the Sunday Night Theatre slot slot on television. And, um So I had some cutting edge stuff. I ended up, um, getting nominated as a finalist for best actress in 1987 [00:46:30] for the role of Joel. My co-star was a guy called Richard Hanna. And, um Yeah, so that was quite sort of Oh, right at that time, of course. 84 85 around the time homosexual law reform was happening. And my bosses at, um, Alfie's nightclub, uh, Brett Shepperd in particular, Um, Tony Kado, Uh, his partner, John. Uh, they [00:47:00] had, um, magazine, which was the major gay publication National Gay publication at the time. And it was very active in the, um, homosexual law reform debate at the time. And, uh, but we're in there, and we were working down at the club and and, of course, doing Joel's. And just at that time, the Salvation Army, of course, was vehemently opposed to homosexual law reform. They were vicious and venal [00:47:30] in their, um, attack at the time and, uh, were really our enemies in many respects. And, uh, they were the destiny church of their day. If I can put it like that. And, um, every Sunday in Auckland, they did a, um, a prayer march down Queen Street and would, um, um, have a prayer meeting on the corner of Queen Street and Victoria Street, just around [00:48:00] the corner of Victoria Street. And on this particular day, we were shooting, um, scenes for the Jules Dale film, which required being at Mid City Mall, which is in the middle of Queen Street. And, um, we did that and we were getting into the evening. And, um, Peter either remembered or somebody reminded him and that the Salvation Army were going to do this march down Queen Street and then hold the prayer meeting down there. And this is the joy of working with sort of, you know, filmmakers [00:48:30] or suddenly sees an opportunity whether it's scheduled or not. And, um, they suddenly have we we meet and then got me and Richard who were all in costume and stuff and done our work. We were about to rap, really, and sort of said, Hey, look, this is going to be happening and we just thought we improvise. We're gonna go and set up camera down on the down there and you and Richard just and there is Richard and I hiding in the doorway of McDonald's, um, on Queen Street [00:49:00] and da da da da da And down come, you know, and the tambourines and the uniforms and the hats and all of the stuff and the brass band, and it's all going down Queen Street and, you know, a bit of a parade going on. And then they get down just to about where we were. And then me and Richard just ran out in front of them, right, and started marching down down Queen Street and then wheeled around into Victoria Street. And, um, hoped [00:49:30] that Peter and them got something on film. And, um So after the Salvation Army grouping had set themselves up on the corner to now hold their prayer meeting and they all got lined up and and stuff like that, um, we've gone back over the road to sort of see, you know Oh, God, that was, you know, fun. And, you know, did you get it all? And, you know, did you get what you needed? And can you make something out of it? Because he had no idea if it was going to be useful footage. [00:50:00] And then he said, Oh, look, just before we go, do you think you and Rick Richard could just go over and walk over and stand beside them? Because now they're stationary at the prayer meeting and, um, we went Oh, OK. Yep. And off we went and stood there, you know, mocking it, really in a sort of silent film kind of way. And, um, the sergeant or whatever it was, I think he got furious, and him and Peter started to have words, and he was going to report to the police and the whole thing, and we would have this piece of footage, [00:50:30] you know, they're not allowed to put it on TV and stuff like that. And, uh, anyhow, needless to say, it is a piece of fond footage that I look at on Jules Dale, if I see it of just our little protest at the time, we were able to sort of do something that recorded that actual and historic time. Not only that, I think for Jules Dale and there was one other film that they did in that series called my first Suit, which was a story about a young 14 year old [00:51:00] boy discovering his homosexuality and stuff like that. Um, and you would have thought that the moral content of that would have been repugnant to the censor of the day, but no, the censor of the day decided that Jules Dale was contrary to the public's good taste and could not be aired. And, um, there was a about that at the time, which delayed the screening of the entire about face series, Um, on TV for a wee while until Julian Mounter, who I think came to the helm of television [00:51:30] at the time, sort of told him to get stuffed. And, um, you know, we're not going to waste the money just on this silly little piccalo that they picked up and put the series on and played in the film in Jules Dale amongst the others. Um, and I lost out in the actress award to Jenny Wardley and, um, happily so she was well deserving her. And I were hot contenders that year for taking out the best actress award. And there were three others, of course. And [00:52:00] I think one other actress who was also a finalist and she spat at me, I spat out at me verbally, I might add, um, that, uh, if I had won sort of half tongue in cheek, that if I had that, if I won the award, she'd be complaining because I've been, um, nominated in the wrong sex and, um, but it didn't come to pass so otherwise I would have pressed anyhow. So So there was some major social [00:52:30] change happening in New Zealand in the 19 eighties. And I'm wondering, did the, um, you know, you've got homosexual law reform in 85 86? Did that have any impact on you? No, not particularly, except to say that it began to pull in the strands of, um, collective strength as a significant minority in this country that in order to advance our, um, [00:53:00] our our human rights requirements and, um, begin to socially engineer, I guess and and the more positive for those of us that were on the marginalised communities and I just don't mean transgender. But the gay, the gay political agenda that was about to emerge, was emerging at the time. And don't forget, it had also coincided our law reform. It also coincided with the advent of [00:53:30] HIV and a ID. And luckily in New Zealand, it provided a vehicle via Warren Limberg and various other people who said I established the AIDS Foundation and there's a whole lot of other names I should not start trying to get into the list. Um, of honour. Uh, that those people, um, did for us at the time, but managed to it provided a vehicle whereby us? Because there was this erroneous, [00:54:00] um, a belief at the time that HIV and AIDS was primarily a gay disease. Gay related. Which was totally wrong, of course. But that was the sort of, uh, hysterical reaction of general society, uh, to it at the time. And, um, the movers and shakers in the gay world. I think at that time who were able to and the professionals who were able to frame [00:54:30] the debate over HIV and a I and how best this country would handle, Um, our approach to it, uh, worked very simpatico and well with mainstream society. And I think that scored some brownie points in some respects of sort of Oh, OK, dealing with that. Well, coinciding with homosexual law reform and, um, and then in our arts and cultural sector IE, Jules Dale is one thing. Um, now [00:55:00] not just being on the fringes and funny little fringe film festivals or down the sort of, you know, theatre and Roxy or something. Whatever, um, to go and see that kind of art, you know, film and creative arts to suddenly see it bend into our into our living rooms. Um, not just the Jules Dale subject matter, but the my first suit subject matter and stuff like that, which was far more real as far as drama than the caricatures [00:55:30] you might have seen on. You know, um, Danny la I go back to Danny LA but that he was one of the most, um, sort of visible TV personas, um, of the era. And, uh, and that's how you know a lot of Joe Blow. Mum and Dad, New Zealanders, you know, might have seen it. Um, And we more than that. Um, yeah. So an interesting time. You know, I guess I'm sure there was other stuff that was coming out at the time, [00:56:00] too, but from my own personal, you know, contact and experience. Yeah, they were quite, uh for me, I think after Joel style, Um, I think that I then went to do things and, um, like shark in the park and other television productions where I did guest appearances and all during this period, I you know, my bread and butter money was on the, um you know, on the uh, show in Auckland at Alfie's nightclub. You know, which was the weekend, and [00:56:30] and that was sort of to enter into lip sync contests that were popular on the day running around there, you know, in the various shopping malls out in the suburbs Pick up 1000 bucks just like that. They didn't realise that late at night. I was doing it as my job anyhow, you know, lip synching on a drag show. Um, you know, selling films. I'll chuck on a dolly part, and we can go and pretend to be that. And they all love it out at clear Paris, you know, Mount Wellington, and I'll tell you the other thing. You know, um, we did at the time. Because And [00:57:00] this is our way of sort of getting back at the state and bureaucracy and the system, um, to get a benefit to usually we will put on sickness, benefits, and all you got was your doctor to fill out your, um, certificate. So what's wrong with me? You know, um and everything like that. Well, they dreamed up that we had psychosexual disorders, and this gets us on to the sickness, benefit and so, yes, we'll go on the sickness benefit. And, um, that was reasonably generous in those days, about [00:57:30] 250 bucks or something like that. And by the time he added that to under the table money we're getting on the weekend out, you know, um, doing the drag show not 350 there. And then the other bit, you know, you might have sort of, you know, um, picked up around the pulling about 800 bucks a week. Not too bad. Right through the 1987 crash, while everyone else was dying. We were living still quite high off the hog. Really? You know, at that time and I say that and I know it sounds disrespectful, but that's survival stuff. OK, you silly [00:58:00] bastards. You reckon we've got a psychosexual disorder and you want to give us money for it? I'll take it now, You know, I would think differently now, but in those days, that was about man, you you got to get what you can. And if that's you know, that was sort of a little bite back. He used to get a society. Well, if you want to treat me like that and you silly bastards. Um and, um yeah, that's how we sort of got on. Could you see a difference in the way that mainstream society reacted to you from, say, [00:58:30] the, um, seventies through to the eighties was there. I mean, you actually no, no, no, no. I've always said Law is relatively easy to change. Attitude takes generations, and we're nowhere near it. Yet as far as attitude is concerned, it's improving, and it's getting there. But, um, it won't. It won't entirely have have have worked for us in my lifetime, I'm sure. But yeah, we've substantially gone a long way there, and I'm just [00:59:00] a wee piece of the puzzle. And, you know, um, end of the the continuum, um, that we've had to sort of, you know, get there. So attitude is the next thing. And, um, the era of collective um, solidarity has diminished somewhat in the last few years, in my view, amongst the the LGBTI community and there be just saying LGBTI [00:59:30] community, we're already quite sort of section siloed off on those things. There has been a purpose where we come to together and put aside our particular differences with each other for the greater good. And, um and we move forward, and I think we're at a period now that I think probably after this marriage, equality and adoption has been sorted that legally there's very little else until we start to get down to the minutia. So transgender want some [01:00:00] greater access to services, et cetera, than are currently being provided and all of that sort of thing, and there will be those kinds of things to do. But as far as major law, the framework by which, um, you know, it's not that it's or anything. We're just actually wanting the same, you know? Um, but no. Nothing special. Um, you know, But we got to go through this. The lawyers are creaming it, Um, you know, um, so, yes. Uh, that is where [01:00:30] I sort of see that kind of, um, change in the future. But the the eighties to the to the nineties, I've noticed, sort of, you know, Yeah, eighties, nineties and beyond, You know, after that was in quite a bit. And especially after So we have homosexual law reform 86. We have the amendments to the Human Rights Act. in the early 19 nineties under a national government. And, uh, then we come to the early two thousands and we [01:01:00] get, um, de facto property relationship act We get, um, the Civil Union Act and the Statutory References Amendment Act and, um, and various other things like that, that sort of. And now we're heading in this latest, um, attempt to go, uh, to get marriage. So it's moved quite quite well, but the best reflection is in the social services provided, um, [01:01:30] you know, anyhow, and I, you know, amongst other things anyhow, that's probably going a bit too far ahead. We'll get to that later. In your questions. When was the transition between George and Georgina? 00, 1976. And by that time I was living on Buller Street and, um Wellington with rail McKenzie [01:02:00] and Malcolm Vaughan and various others. That's that's where it happened. And that just meant one day, um, when I had the wardrobe and, you know, when I had the wherewithal to live 24 7 just to be who I am, you know, and destroyed everything that I had on me at the time. Um, that was, uh, male or a reminder and [01:02:30] a sort of symbolic sort of purging. Fucking put it like that. What was your relationship with your family? Estranged. Still, that's the shortest way to describe it. Estranged? My mother died in 1978. It was quite tragic, really. She was 43 and she died of cervical cancer. And she had been involved in the unfortunate experiment up in Auckland And that at the time, [01:03:00] um, Sandra Co. And co wrote about later, um and, um And so she was the only, um, senior family member that I had any kind of respect for and would listen to and whose disapproval or approval or, um, affirmation was important to me. And so once that was out of the picture, I had no sort of moral compass, as far as that was concerned about some kind of responsibility [01:03:30] to the family or whatever like that, because the only ultra important person to me at that time, um, was now no longer, and that was it. So in a way, I said yes. But in a way, another way, it was freedom for me. I didn't care about what my stepfather thought, and I never knew my birth father never met him until my mid twenties. So I had no emotional connection to him, um, or that side of the family, necessarily. And, um, my mother's some of my mother's siblings, my aunts and uncles. [01:04:00] Yes, I kept in touch with your cousin and that, but I never felt a huge umbilical cord toward them because I think and, you know, I had left school early, got out of it and then started living that life so young and became fiercely independent. And, um, because I was avoiding wanting to have that pressure on me had seven myself up. Unfortunately became, um, um, happily convenient to just cut [01:04:30] them out like that. Um saved me a lot of grief until I was in. And actually, the time when I sort of put that to bed was at my mother's funeral in front of the mall. Yep. This is who I am and what I am. Deal with it or not and so on and so forth. And, um, and walked out and went to a nightclub in town. I had a good night out after that, And, um, and I and and horrified [01:05:00] and all of that sort of thing. I said, I'll deal with it. It's your problem, not mine. And I think when I started to treat life and people like that, it's your problem. It's not mine. I'm just going to get on with it. And I'm not gonna wear your your, um, your guilt that you're going to impose on me, you know? Oh, shame. That's your shame, not mine. It's, you know, II. I just, um, divested myself of making that a problem. Some might say you're avoiding it or not wanting to confront it or whatever. Well, [01:05:30] if I do or did, I'll do it in my own time, Thank you very much. I don't need it right now. I've got other things to deal with, much more fun. And I guess that's just an indication of a kind of attitude that I sort of developed that I'm not going to let you stop me, pull me down or change me like that. You know, you come and meet me halfway, and, uh, it's interesting because I had heard that at your mother's funeral that it was your mother's request that that you go and mail [01:06:00] clothing. That's right, it was. Oh, well, just background, that sort of scenario one night. Now, don't forget, I've been out of touch completely. She thought I was dead or something like that, you know? Could have been in jail or whatever for 18 months. And in that time, I'd made my transition and, uh, one night on the way to work. I was full of and, um, a few Valium, um, had a few drinks before I left home On my way to work, I just suddenly stopped at the telephone booths in Vivian [01:06:30] Street and rang her. And in that conversation, um, and I came out to her and stuff like that. But she also informed me that she was not well, and she that she had cancer and that she didn't think she had much longer. So I was horrified and wanted to rush back and go and see her. She preferred I didn't come right then. And, um, but eventually I did go up and see her, and she died three weeks later to cut a long story short. So, um, there was a reconciliation and we made our peace for [01:07:00] want of a better term. If there was any peace to be made. One of her requests was that, um I do come as her son. I looked ridiculous with tits and long hair, and, uh, but I did dress down for wore a man's suit, which was probably quite trendy when you think about it in those days, um, to look like a girl wearing a man's suit. And everyone knew, of course, that was the ridiculousness of it. And, um, but out of respect for her, I wouldn't do it for anyone else. Um, um, I did that. And then as soon as we dealt with her [01:07:30] at the, um, at the at the funeral, um went back to the house to the wake, I got changed. I. I got back before anyone else started arriving and I got changed to Georgina that you know who I was. They all come back, I and out fully, you know, they see it all. I can still remember. One of my aunties just was horrified. How can you do that at your mother's funeral, You know, and all of that kind of thing. And that's when I more or less sort of sort of said, Well, not my problem. It's your [01:08:00] problem. Deal with it. You all know about it Tough. And off I went and Yeah, let's put it down. That is the, um, 10 ft tall and bulletproof. That's, you know, young people at that time, you know, you're not gonna do anything to me, you know? So, in a strange sort of way, it sort of worked for me. Others might have sort of crumbled at the at the thought of it from that point of view. But no, not me for us. You know, thumb my nose at you. You mentioned a bit earlier about, [01:08:30] um, you You touched on briefly about suicide. And I'm wondering, I mean, was suicide a a big thing in your life? Or it was, I think, at that time, two or three times. Um, I'll probably Yeah, it's easy to say in reflection now. Yes. After the, um, Sydney, um, situation the, um the rape over there that sent me into a spin. You know, that was real tough. Uh, really. At that time and you began. [01:09:00] Oh, why am I living this life? And this was this the way we just expect to be treated there? That's No, kind of, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Um, and the other time I have been more out of sulkiness or something like that. You know, it's easy when you're dropping pills. Anyhow, I just drop more and thought, Oh, but that was because we were on, you know, a lot of barbiturates we took on those days Mandrax, seals, tools or hypno the [01:09:30] menu, the cocktail of things that we used to get because it was there to go to. I can call him by name now because he's dead now, Doctor, everyone will know who doctor was in those days in Willow Street. And, um Hm. Um, I'm glad it didn't happen, though. Now, I'm glad. You know, I'm very glad Now, of course, that they weren't successful. But those were the triggers that I guess at that time, young [01:10:00] somewhat unreasonable. And luckily, in recovery from from the added strength rather than, um, a weakness that it was a point, you know, that if you were heading to that point something seriously wrong and, um, you know, make it right. If you can for yourself mhm. And that you can get them [01:10:30] back. You know if you think the world's done you a bad, um, deed, uh, by, um, being resilient. But it doesn't happen like that for everybody. Of course it gets on top of them. And I can understand why there's some very cruel people out there and cruel situations that occur that can you can see how it just, you know, forces. People must have been worse way before, and no one could be out. [01:11:00] So was it things like, um, the pack rape in Australia that prompted you into saying, Actually, I'm not gonna let other people have to go through this, um, thing where I can't report it to the police. Uh, was that something? Well, that kind of activism manifested later. Yes. At the time, it was more, um, [01:11:30] more self interested. I'm not gonna ever let that happen to me again. And I want to be able to, you know, rectify it. A lot of those sort of things and so-called achievements and stuff afterwards have been done. Not as a there. Been more. Yeah, there's been more of a, uh you know, what if it doesn't? If I don't let it happen to me again. Well, whoever else benefits [01:12:00] is fine, you know, But I wasn't doing it purposefully for that kind of cause, you know? No, there was no cause to lib for me. You know, as far as that was concerned, it was about sort of, you know, it's not fair. You know, I deal with it. Um, if I can or just at least confront it, you see, Wasn't afraid to sort of sort of bite back and strangely enough, for some of the authority that I might have, um, crossed swords with with at times. Um, [01:12:30] I was eloquent and intelligent and argumentative from, um a, uh, a professional perspective. As opposed to thumb. Dumb queen. You know, I understood what I was, you know, wanting and And, you know, the acceptance I was. Well, I just didn't accept things. I didn't accept it when social welfare told me that I couldn't get an unemployment benefit because I could go [01:13:00] and put, you know, go and be the man I'm supposed to be and get a job. And, um, they actually wrote that to you. I was told that you were just told that in those days when you fronted up well, they don't call it once it was, you know, social welfare and all of that. And, you know, as to whether or not you are eligible for, uh, getting a benefit. And I said, no, this is I'll be going to work like this. So no, I'm not going to change. You know, this is who I am [01:13:30] and what I am and and And why the Who the hell are you to tell me that I should go and be the man you reckon I'm supposed to be? No. They didn't know how to deal with that except to say that. Well, you've got a psychosexual disorder, so go get a sickness benefit. Oh, OK, then, if that's what you think I've got, that's fine. Devil for a moment believed that none [01:14:00] of us did, you know. But, um, that's the way society the bureau bureaucracy was going to deal with. You put you there crazy. So yeah, I guess inadvertently without knowing that I was just sort of, you know, pushing back and play them at their own game. So when did it change? And why did it change that? You became more kind of outward [01:14:30] looking and saying? Well, actually, I can change this for other people, too. Yeah. No, no, I'm sorry to say, but that revelation quite like they just never It didn't come even when it came into politics. That kind of stuff happened once I was in Parliament. Um, and then the realisation of the, um, level of influence I was now working on or, you know, moving on. Um, [01:15:00] my whole local government experience, I'm jumping a bit ahead now from beyond the eighties. But my whole local government experience was nothing about at all. None of my political, um, achievements of being elected, et cetera have relied on the fact that I had some kind of alternative agenda regarding being a tranny or being part of the gay community or anything like that. I was fell through some happy stance, uh, circumstances, [01:15:30] I suppose, into those roles. And, um, the fact that I was already an out, mildly well known transgender entertainer slash actress, um, and so on and so forth at one level. And then, um, moved into, um, a political or local government to start off with, um arena, which obviously attracted some [01:16:00] attention because, uh, so I was always an out. I'd always been an out transgender person is no sort of escaping and didn't want to, you know, was irrelevant. Frankly, you know, um, and the reason I got into, uh, politics is because others in the community of carterton that I lived with lived in at the time pushed me toward it for completely unrelated reasons to being part of the gay community. Utterly unrelated. So [01:16:30] for you, when, um, you are campaigning to become mayor of in 95. And there are things like III. I know there was like, um, kind of smear campaign saying, Oh, did you really have an operation and all that kind of stuff? How did when? That's not what you're standing for. How did that kind of make you feel? Oh, well, it won me the election. To put it short, [01:17:00] I first got I first, the first election I ever ran and was in 1992 at the 1992 local government elections. As an urban ward councillor for the Carterton District Council. I had been working, um, part time as a tutor at a life skills course at the Community centre, a course that I had been a, um, training opportunities programme participant in prior to getting, um, a bit of a position there. [01:17:30] The 1991 budget happened. Euthanasia, um, occurred and in it it slashed benefits by about 25%. And down the track from that it had it had a, um a ripple effect. Um, throughout rural New Zealand in particular, where a lot of low income jobs, you know, it was the nineties. You know, it was, um, would come out of the eighties, the eighties, the economic financial horrors of that time perpetuated by the Ruth [01:18:00] Richardson, finance Minister in that national government. And, um so we had some issues in Carter that we as a community organisation were getting involved with them. One of them was, um, uh, the odd case of homelessness and people sleeping down at the local um, Children's play park and the sort of fort and thing that were down there and people were worried about it. And [01:18:30] we, as a community centre, wanted to organise um, some temporary accommodation for these people while we got them sorted with benefits, et cetera, benefits and access to them and advocacy for them and stuff like that. We went to the local district council and asked them if we could use one of their powered caravan sites at the council owned Caravan Park because someone had donated a caravan to us and we thought we could pop someone in there for a night or two while we got them sorted, et cetera. The [01:19:00] council refused to give us a powered caravan site and this we paid for it and we were wanting it for free. We were just a very, you know, poor community organisation. And we made a submission to the council and those of us in the community centre, Um, committee and stuff like that. They made me the spokesperson to go and present the oral submission to council, [01:19:30] and that's probably the first thing I ever did, you know. So it started from there, and then the 92 elections came. They suggested that we put up a candidate and I ran on a ticket with a retired um, vicar, the Reverend William Woodley Hartley, And he was about 80 something, and, um, and me. So there was, um, plenty of scope for actress Bishop jokes. And, um, we had [01:20:00] fun and made a few points of social interest. And, um, you know, community involvement. And the council should have a social conscience, etcetera, etcetera. And I was not successful in that election. But I was the highest polling, unsuccessful candidate in the 92 elections, and they knew that I was this exotic creature that had come from nowhere. And suddenly he was in town and I stuck out like a sore thumb in a small rural town like but, [01:20:30] um, I had endeared myself to them in some sort of respects, and people got to know me and and, um, I got involved and, um, and felt pretty good. And then there was the resignation of the newly elected council. Um, ironic be It happened to be the Baptist minister, and he got redeployed in his ministry to another city. And so there was a newly created [01:21:00] vacancy on the carterton District Council, the new one, And so they held a by election rather than And it was during that period that a lot of those, um, suggestions by the media that it was because I was a transsexual and questioning my, um, you know, my character and all of that sort of thing began to emerge because it was sort of lovely, salacious stuff for the, um, um, otherwise boring local government, you [01:21:30] know, election stuff to happen. And, um so you had to put up with all of that scrutiny, which was just sort of the beginning of learning, a long, long lesson of how to deal with all of with all of that sort of scrutiny. But I would have to say that it was the media and the associated attention with this fascination with this transgender person running for public office in a rural conservative area in New Zealand. Nobody [01:22:00] would thought that thought that it would happen, that it was a bit of a joke. Carmen had run for the mayoralty in Wellington in 1977 and that had been full of spectacular sort of, you know, um, wonderful colour. But nobody was taking it seriously. It was more in entertainment than anything else. And now, a few years later, there's this thing happening, except it's in rural New Zealand, and this will be fun and all of that sort of thing and how wrong they were. And, um, I won [01:22:30] the by-election because the council could have just appointed me, um, as I was the highest polling, unsuccessful candidate. We're talking about 14 votes here, 14 votes. And, um, that I'd missed out by saved the expense of a you know, by-election there was no choice. They could have left the situation vacant, but it was too soon after the major election. And, uh, that would mean there would be a ward in in the, [01:23:00] um in the district that would be unrepresented for that time, so that wasn't an option. And, um, they chose the by-election and, um, in a strange sort of way, I was able to use that to my advantage because I could sort of do the fire and brimstone about, Oh, the expense unnecessary and so on and so forth and the media are saying, Oh, but no, isn't it because you're a transsexual and they don't want to have it like that? Oh, couldn't possibly be anything like that. And I you know, for all of that that they would sort of say I said, [01:23:30] Oh, no, that's not an issue. It's certainly not an issue for me. It shouldn't be an issue for anyone. And I just went on this, sort of, you know, rose above it kind of attitude while the poor old incumbent mayor was being asked about Ah, is the council doing this Because, um, you know, you don't want to have someone like her and that's on the council. And of course, he would come back with a very diplomatic and political way. Of course not. This is a democracy, and that's why we're going to have the by-election so that the people can make the decision. Well, of course you can't argue with that. Of course, that's sort of right. But we all know [01:24:00] we all know, don't we what the real attitude was and, um and certainly the voters understood that and thought to thumb their nose at the council. And they kicked my fanny into that council and elected me with a very clear majority. Five other people stood against me and a by-election, for God's sake, you know, um, stood against me and, um, and I got half of the votes and the rest of them shared the rest of the votes. [01:24:30] And there I became a counsellor, and, um so yeah, it was. And then, when I got in there. Of course, it was very new, and I knew nothing. I was by no means had been educated towards the ways of politics. I just you know, um, learned it from the ground up, so to speak. And, uh, it was very easy in my first few months to be marginalised by the rest of the council, who were just sort of, [01:25:00] you know, bemused more than anything else. It was OK. It ought to be a one term wonder, you know, and that kind of thing. I seized the opportunity that they sort of threw at me. Um, councils under the Resource Management Act needed to establish. Um um, what do you call it? Consultative procedures with local iwi. And since I was the first Maori to ever serve on the council, [01:25:30] they threw it to the brownie in the corner. And, um and I took it with both hands and went off and went to workshops and things and came back with a draught sort of proposal for a policy for the council to adopt, to start to establish my creed amongst them, I suppose. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter about them that sit around the table so much, it's the people who put you in there and who you're representing and that that you've got to keep on side [01:26:00] and that you've got to keep open and honest with. And I just sort of always, you know, found favour. Luckily with the constituents and I delivered for them, yes, under promised, over delivered. I started to learn the tactics early on, and then the 95 election came around, and that had been suggested that I have a go for the mayoralty then, which I thought was sort of ridiculous. [01:26:30] But let's have fun and, uh in a way and and gave it a go. The mayoralty being successful in that you became the world's first transsexual, openly transsexual mayor, and that created a whole lot of international media attention. How did you deal with that? It it did Well, first of all, I didn't think for a moment that I would win the mayoralty, and I stood also because you could stand [01:27:00] for Councillor and mayor. So I was already an incumbent councillor. And so I stood for both, you know, because I was pretty sure. But we'll stand for the mayor and have it a go. And I did it upon the suggestion. Excuse me of one of our, um, managers. I thought he shouldn't have been advising me this way, but I'll go on, you know, let's have a go and, um, felt emboldened enough to do it. And because I've been pretty straight up about what I thought of, um, the sort of so called [01:27:30] as I call them most unkindly when I think about it now. But, you know, that's politics. Um, and I would just sort of say things. Oh, God. Half these councillors inherited their seats and, you know, about time, you know, some new fresh leadership. Anyhow, it resonated with people. And yes, and I won the mayoralty at the end of the day. Um, in 95 Yes. Then this attention descended upon me. The media treated the mayoral campaign [01:28:00] again as some kind of entertainment. I don't think anyone was quite sure that I would actually pull it off and that I'd given myself the backstop of being able to be re-elected as a councillor. So, you know, people were sort of wondering about that. But as it turned out, it was very It was a definite win. I didn't just scrape it or anything like that. I had a great majority and bang, I was there and I was the mayor, and I was terrified. Really? Because suddenly oh, my God, it happened. It was the media that informed [01:28:30] me that, um, I was certainly the first transsexual in New Zealand to be elected as a mayor. And then later on, people sort of say, Oh, you might be the first in the world and I said, Well, I wouldn't have a clue. You'd have to go and verify that or whatever like that. I don't know. I'm just, you know, in the mayor and, um, get on with the job. But of course, the media attention was on the trend. You know, this is the first transsexual in the world, and after nobody else [01:29:00] around the world stuck their hand up to say no, I am, and none of them did or no, nobody did. Um, but it's just a given that that is, you know, sort of the fact. And of course, it had nothing to do whatsoever with my getting elected. It was a byproduct, you know, on APR scale that that was. But when it dawned on me that [01:29:30] if this is the case, even if it's just about New Zealand, it's got some significance from, um, you know, from the gay communities or significant minorities that are an underdog. Made it through legitimately. No. Swifties pulled here to get her into office or anything. These were rural redneck conservative New Zealanders elected her. What did they put in the water? You know, um what you know what's caused [01:30:00] this? This is, you know, quite remarkable in this little micro, um, example in the scheme of things and it's sort of fun And gee, don't we feel good that anyone can make it in our country and get there? You know, there was all of this kind of thing. Um, that went on. So it was immense. I decided to, um, accept that I'd become a bit of a figure of [01:30:30] political importance or a sense of Oh, there's a little A little advance has just happened here. And, um so I accepted that it was going to represent parts of the gay community or that movement is one thing, but actually, I'm the mayor of and that's my primary focus. And it has got to be what I may [01:31:00] do and what I may achieve or whatever like that may well be a good reflection for everybody else. That's going to claim a piece of ownership of my reflect glory or whatever you want to call it, um, and success and achievement, and to be used as an example of how it could happen elsewhere. If people were more open minded and overlook and da, da, da, da and all of that kind of significance a largely it would depend on [01:31:30] how effective my example might be by my exemplary behaviour and at the same time not looking like I was, um, you know, totally conforming to, um, you know, societal ways that I'm not afraid to be who I am and and what I am and for everyone to know it, and I go out there and preach it. I just am and you know I am. And who's making up the issue? [01:32:00] The media do, because that's an interesting aspect, and people are curious about it. And also it had a reflection, some possibly in a negative way for the people of because now they've got this, um, civic leader who's becoming very virtually a household name because of my notoriety, my interesting back story and the fact that I am this, um, transsexual. [01:32:30] And now this is going to reflect on the town, too, And on the district. So there was that to take into account. So again, my conduct, I guess at the time, was to try and make a happy balance between to be everything to everybody that they wanted me to be, you know, in some ways, But, uh, but not lose it either. Did you feel that you had to kind of be what, more respectable, Or or [01:33:00] I already was respectable and more respectable than the colleagues to show. OK, if I was going to, you know, um, because now you've got a public platform. So the media are asking you about all sorts of other things. Um, local government related, my district related, you know, and all of that kind of thing. My response to things I mean, just looking at me as a civic leader to begin with was, you know, how is she going to do this? Some kind of attitude [01:33:30] that people like me just haven't got the Kaunas to be able to do a job like that. Mm. You know. So what are you telling me? I'm so sub intelligent because I happen to be what I am, that I can't do this, you know? And But of course I can. And of course, those kinds of invisible barriers that we sometimes face because people just make us some kind of erroneous assumption about us. And you know, how I'm educated or uneducated or intelligent or able [01:34:00] or or sensible or whatever, you know, to be able to deal with a position of, yes, ceremonial responsibility. But they actually did some hard graft work. And there's a whole lot of diplomacy. There's a whole lot of politic. There's a whole lot of stuff that suddenly you got to crash and learn as well as being the public face and the media go to person, um, and so on and so forth. So a whole lot of skills had to come together, Which is why I said before that, having had some experience in theatre and a little bit of dabbling in television [01:34:30] and a little bit of entertainment, my street smarts from my street time years. Suddenly, elements of all of that came into play to being able to use, um, of navigating my way through in the early days anyhow of my, um and, um, and just learning how to deal with that, let alone the run of the mill stuff that the council does and and how to manage people. And, um, and deal with the high brows and the low brows and still not [01:35:00] lose a sense of self And who I am and what I am with the demands that others had on me and my time and my image and my and everything that I you know, that I represented, If that's the way people wanted it, a huge demand came on because suddenly, you know, you're on a bit of a platform and a pedestal. You're a voice box, and, um mm. So so then how did you feel about, um I mean, I've seen a number of newspaper articles from the time where you know, the first sentence kind of is always, you know, [01:35:30] um, prostitute, um drug user da da da da. So your pastor is always following you before they actually get to the story of what the story is. How did you feel about that? The past? Well, you know, at the time, you know, you just sort of dealt with it, and you just took it that that's how it was always going to be. Now you know, there's enough of that record, um, around for people to reflect back on it now and sort of go. How useless are those journalists? How [01:36:00] shallow is that media at the time that they always had to start like that? Um, it was just essentially a sensational headline grabbing thing to get the reader's attention, I suppose. And on occasions you would get feedback from the reader. That would sort of say, Why do you have to keep on referring to Georgina Bar as a transsexual? We don't refer to the prime minister as a heterosexual, which could have a double on to to it, of course. Um [01:36:30] and um, which was Bulger in the time. And, um and, um, and so people would could see New Zealanders could look through that kind of stuff. But I think that's more of a reflection of the journalistic devices that they used of the day, Um that it was about me and that they have to keep throwing that up there. I mean, at the end of the day, everyone knows this. So why do you have to keep repeating it? So it's for very spurious [01:37:00] reasons, really, That they want to raise that again. I can remember when I was in Parliament at at one time when people wrote me off at the 2002 election, we might come to that later. But, um wrote me off, and then I changed my mind, and I was going to leave after my first term. And then I changed my mind and I went back. And of course I remember the people in the press gallery telling me you just committed political suicide. You don't do that. Um, you know? So you're gonna leave and announce it [01:37:30] and everything like that, and then change your mind that you're going to stay. And, um, they said, Oh, you know, you you you you just committed political suicide. 2002 election happens. My majority doubled. Now, do you think they would want to scrutinise how that happened or why that happened Do you think they'd want to give me credit for actually having some ability? And not only that for actually being straight up? Um, [01:38:00] you know, and because they were trying to look for some Well, what the hell happened here? You know, some incredible thing that occurred, but it was very simple, really. At the end of the day, I I changed my mind, and I told them so and that I would change my mind and OK, if they thought that I was too silly to, you know, put back there, then I wouldn't be put back there, but they definitely put me back there. I'm talking about the electors, you know, did so Media explained to me your whole attitude that I had just committed political suicide and that I'm [01:38:30] naive and stupid. And I always was going to be a one term wonder. You ask me since I first elected to public office in 1993. How come I last until 2007? You know, did that happen? Because, you know, people were just, you know, I was more than a one term wonder. I never lost an election except for the first one I ever ran in. And, um, that was in 1992 and I missed out by 14 votes, which turned out to be an advantage [01:39:00] in a strange sort of way. In the end, I mean, but that never got looked at. You're right. Prostitute, transsexual, drag queen, blah, blah, blah. All of that has to sort of get up there. What prompted you to then stand as a member of parliament? Well, I was very happy in my role in local government. [01:39:30] I succeeded in getting a second term as mayor in 1998 with a 90% majority. I represented zone four on local government New Zealand, which is the Wellington metropolitan. Uh, you know, region, um, of local government, New Zealand. I was very happy and content in my role as a mayor. I was approached by the New Zealand Labour Party in the form of Sonia [01:40:00] Davies and who lived in Masterton. And she came to see me under the pretence of talking about the, um, master in hospital at the time which was under threat of closure and, um, and services being diminished and so on and so forth. But at the end of the day after that meeting, she had me signed up as a member of the Labour Party in order to get her out of my office. Um, at the time. And, um And then she came [01:40:30] back and suggested that, uh what I consider running as a candidate for labour in the wrapper. I said no. I turned labour down three times in quite quick succession. Um, I even went to a meeting in mhm 1998 no 1999 with Helen Clark a day before the hero parade in Auckland. And, um, and she was a leader of the opposition at the time [01:41:00] and had the meeting, um, with her and she was sort of quite keen. But she made one statement to me which made me go no again because she said during the course of the dinner that we had, um, she said, 00, now we're looking for star performers and I yes, you just want someone who's a bit of a name and some far flung rural seat and all of that sort of thing. It's not really me and my fabulous abilities that you want. It's just my notoriety pull a few votes. You hope M MP election, et cetera. And and this great [01:41:30] emphasis put on you just go for the party vote the party, vote. Don't worry about your personal vote just for the party vote, Party vote. And I think that was the Anyhow, I said I said no. But, um, Sonia kept being dispatched to persuade me, um, to confirm running as a candidate. So I did. And, um, you know, accept to be put up for selection as a candidate for the seat for the Labour Party. I didn't realise that there were two others [01:42:00] on the night of the selection meeting. Oh, I knew that there were two others. But on the night of the selection meeting, I turned up the Frank Cody Lounge in Masterton and expected to have a bit of a you know, you know, do a debate because this is a selection meeting. And there's two other people there, and I got there and the two other people made a public announcement and withdrew their candidacy for selection. And so it was me and I just had a because I'm the last one standing [01:42:30] and yes, and I'm announced as the Labour candidate for the wire rapper seat at the, um, 1999 general election. Well, that hit the headlines, of course. And so now it was on. I was, you know, um um, that was it. I had never belonged to a political party before. Um, I had no idea of the culture of the, uh, New Zealand Labour Party or anything like that. Uh, they put scant resources into our election over there because I think they had a view that it was probably [01:43:00] unlikely that I would win, But they were wanting to get party vote, and there'd be a little bit of media buzz, you know, around anyhow, the National Party decided to put up a candidate against me, obviously, because it's the National Party stronghold. The rapper and that candidate that they selected at the end of the day is a well known broadcaster called Paul Henry. And, um, he was the national candidate, uh, for them, and, [01:43:30] uh, and, of course, all the other parties had their candidates up, but it was really a two horse race between myself and, uh, Paul Henry, who blew it for them. Frankly. Thank you, Paul. it was well done. A fantastic performance. And, um And he'll never want to enter politics ever again. Certainly not for the national Party. And, um and I won the election, and that was remarkable. I didn't certainly [01:44:00] didn't expect to win the constituency. And but there was, You know, let's be fair here. There was a swing away from the then national from the incumbent national government, and they were going to lose that election anyhow. And a huge swing towards, um, a labour. I had the largest swing in any electorate in the country at that year, a 32% swing to labour. And I took out the seat [01:44:30] with a 3000 majority, a seat that had been held by the right honourable Wyatt Creach, who had was then the deputy prime minister, but who had chosen to stand down from the seat and into his final term in Parliament. Um, as a list MP. And that left the field open as he moved on into that position. And, um and yeah, and I think I was only about I'm only the third [01:45:00] Labour Party person to have ever held the seat of, but in fact, I am the first Labour MP to win the in the current electoral configuration of the seat. Now, in previous days, the electorate had been, um, essentially from Masterton down to the south coast of the north Island And, um, the, uh and then the electorate above that was the shrine to Keith Holyoak, which, [01:45:30] of course, took in Woodville Danny, that sort of, uh, lower Central Hawke's Bay, um, area. But that got subsumed. Uh, John FAO was the last MP to hold that to seat. And that was assumed by the newly redrawn boundaries of the, um which Wyatt had in his time from 1996 after the N MP, um, changes had come about, and, uh, and [01:46:00] then I won it in 99 for Labour. Mhm. Knowing what you knew about how the media reacted to you in the mid nineties, did you ever turn it around and actually use, um, differences as as a way of promoting yourself promoting myself? I never felt I had to, you know, contrary to a lot, a lot of people might think I've never been in the [01:46:30] business of necessarily particularly wanting to promote myself except for at election time. You know those sort of PR things to use my No. I think people would like to think that Oh, yes, she's exploited her uniqueness or whatever like that. I just am what I am. If you want to make me unique in that regard, that's that. That's you, Um, doing that at the end of the day. That's so superficial. Um, you don't exist in the political arena. Um, [01:47:00] you know, for that time without some actual ability, um, and being able to do the job and actually on the ground, let me put it to you this way. Conservative, rural New Zealand, perhaps others. But in this instance, conservative rural New Zealanders will spot a fake at 50 paces, so you can't bullshit them. What more can I say at the end of the day, you know that [01:47:30] that that's what it's got to be, you can Oh, that I came with the added attraction of, you know, big press coverage. Not just newspapers, but television. All the bloody interviewers of the day on TV that have had their time with me or I with them. Um, they would press the issues of, um but you're a transsexual. You've had a sex change. Have you done this? I mean, I did 60 minutes. I've been asked the most ridiculous, personal, intimate questions that if I asked you might be offended at, you know? So [01:48:00] I think you had your sex change. What was the first time you had sex? Like this is Genevieve Westcott. 60 minutes asking me a question like that. All sorts of inquiry and inquisitiveness that no other person in public office really has to tolerate. But I do. Why? What is this strange curiosity you have with what might happen in my bedroom or in my character? You're you. You're testing my character. [01:48:30] Like when I proved again and again by just my work and what I do. And my, you know, my conduct that I'm just like any other person who's our mayor or who's an MP or whatever. I carry out my duties. Hm. You know, I mean, I don't know. What else can I say? What else you know? Can I do some people like to characterise it as a way of, uh, character assassination that I'm just exploiting [01:49:00] my, uh, difference. Wrong. And if it has appeared that I've been able to use that sometimes as a platform to get out a particular message. Or you don't get invited to UN conferences on human rights because I was a in the closet transsexual. No, because I have been able to be out who I am, be able to have the balance of being out [01:49:30] and proud about that and talking about it. But I'm lucky enough to live at a time in a country in a democracy where tolerance at the end of the day more often than not, has prevailed eventually. And, um, yes, there's still some rough edges around it. But occasionally there are more of us from those significant minorities who have become figureheads, symbols, examples, role models, people [01:50:00] to look up to and, um, and that sort of thing. And by God, we need them. They are in every other aspect of life. Why the hell shouldn't we have? You know, people like that to go for? I just happen to be in the happy happens, you know, happens to that for a period of time. At a moment in time, Uh, someone like me was happened, and that's provided a platform, especially in the transgender community to become [01:50:30] emboldened and confident that they can participate more fully in society than otherwise. We have been able to, and that has spilled out around the world. It's not as if I would have been the first out transsexual to have attempted public office. I was just lucky enough to be the first one to achieve it. Many others have done it before me failed, but those are the ones who are the pioneers. Those are the ones who have pushed [01:51:00] the boundary to the point where I happen to be lucky enough. You know, at that moment in time for it to happen and, um to be able to be a positive force as a as a as an event that happened a click forward in our political progress and our social progress. I'm just one of many and, um, and a few of us a few of us are celebrated for it, [01:51:30] you know? So Christine Jorgenson, the first, you know, I mean, if anybody thinks we want to live, these public lives like that are quite mistaken. It's a bit different for someone who's relying on their, um, cleanliness or whatever to be their bread and butter as an entertainer. You know, um, you know where they might you know, that that's that's the gimmick, you know, kind of thing. And this is no gimmick [01:52:00] for me. Never has been. So was there ever a time where you just actually wanted to say, Just get over it, you know, all the time. But, um, you know, um but get over it, Georgina. It just is. So, you know, um, live with it and, you know, don't be arrogant enough to think you're the only one that has to sort of, you know, um, I got called up by the Polish, um, media last year because the third out transsexual in the world [01:52:30] has been elected to a parliament in Poland. And, um, she had cited in her media engagements during her campaign and stuff like that that I had been me and New Zealand had been an inspiration for her to be able to find, you know, the courage and that to press forward with her political ambitions and something like Poland. Um, well, that's pretty good, you know. And there she is now, and she is the only one in the world at the moment who happens to be in Parliament? OK, [01:53:00] you know, distinction. I hope she's doing a good job. I met the, um the second trans section in the world who got elected a lady by the name of Vladimir Laura, who was elected into the Prodi government in Italy a couple of years ago. That it only lasted about nine months is neither here nor there. And she was in the Communist Party, she leader, but her and I met at a, um a human, a gay human rights conference in in the Mexican Parliament, Um, that I went to a few years later. So that was quite a historic meeting of me and her [01:53:30] meeting for the first time. You know, the both of us, You know, that kind of thing. But there are many other transgender people around the world who have managed to get into public office. Maybe not up at that level, you know, But on education boards up in Hawaii, it's happening all over. I could sort of be held responsible for helping a bit of that to burst through. And, uh, just by the sheer fact that New Zealand, uh, you know, let's give New Zealand credit here, Um, rather [01:54:00] than me and the vehicle of me. And let's not forget I'm not the only one in this country that served in, like, local government. Jackie Grant, who served down on a on a AAA council. The greatest council for a couple of years. Um, you know, a couple of terms, you know, she's been successful, too. Um, and in that arena, I just happened to be I just got him before, and so sort of took that one. So [01:54:30] my political achievements and elections and stuff have been one thing. The fact that we've been able to that you know, that I and the wider queer community here and around the world have on occasion been able to use that as a good example of why we should be a more, um, accepting an open and inclusive country. Um, and that's the aspiration of many overseas too. I've done a lot of [01:55:00] speaking overseas at gay international forums. Whether it be United nations doing HIV AIDS work. I've been to been to conferences in and Copenhagen and, uh, all over the place. Um, particularly in, um and yeah, all all over the place where I've been asked to go and give a keynote address. And I never fail to, um, you know, talk a bit about our, [01:55:30] you know, the New Zealand example so far and where I fit it in to that, not the only one. So in that sense, yes, I do use, you know, the platform. That's well, if you're going to build this up around me, then I might as well, you know, now that I'm out of politics proper and all of that sort of thing, if anyone wants to, you know, is that experience How do how do you feel about people claiming parts of you so like, say, like a, um, a community, A specific community saying, [01:56:00] Oh, well, you know, look, strangely enough, I think that there's a you know, even in our LGBTI community, Um, there's elements of cynicism and contempt towards me and many who would despise me and even amongst the queens and sort of the bitches, that who the hell does she think she is? You know, you know kind of attitude, and people always want tall poppy syndrome, I suppose, is what emerges from time to time. um, [01:56:30] I know. I just Sorry. What was the question? You know, just when When when people kind of claim ownership of Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Um, well, I've got to choose whether or not I'm going to, um, you know, buy into it or or to allow that to happen. I, I don't mind. Really? If it, um you know, what's happened has happened. Um, it's a good news story, I think, [01:57:00] by and large, uh, some of my life experience will reflect with others who have had similar and, um, and it provides a Yeah, Um, And if it's to be used for good or to broaden minds or whatever like that, then I will. I mean, I've had my battles with conventional society in the past. Certainly in politics, certainly over civil unions and prostitution, reform and [01:57:30] legislation like that, where I sort of just about Oh, yeah. Well, of course she would support something like that. You know, that sort of natural assumption, You know that? I would, but it came with caveats. I must admit when I did it. And also, if that isn't an example to the gay community who do have cynicism about my time and my era and my abilities and all of that sort of thing. Well, excuse me, Who was it who made the conscious decision that in serious votes, [01:58:00] like prostitution reform, like civil unions, like de facto property relationship stuff that I went against what my electorate wanted me to do and what those who voted me And you know whose duty I owed in that sense to to stand up for the moral principle of what I thought was right truly used my conscience without thinking of the PO. Well, yes, I did think, but knowing understanding that there was a political [01:58:30] risk to it. But regardless that I had to do what I felt was right in my heart, even though it might have been against my party when it came to foreshore and seabed or whether it be those other two pieces of legislation. Hm. Did you find being in the spotlight that suddenly a whole lot of people would just contact you and say, this is my story? Did did you find that a lot of people did. And, um, I used to find in my electorate, sometimes [01:59:00] somebody in my electorate office and my electorate. Staff would occasionally get people in, and they had Children or relatives or people that they wanted to talk to me about because they thought that they might be gay or they might be transgender or whatever, and they didn't know anybody else who they felt that they could go and talk to about it. So they access their way to me because my [01:59:30] life and my story and who I am was out there. They sort It was almost like they sort of knew me There'd been the documentaries on television. There's been so there's not a lot that people don't know about me and they either. You know, um went on the highs and lows of all of that sort of stuff, and they sort of felt a connection to me and felt sort of confident enough to come and talk to me about what they found to be a shameful issue for them or something to deal with. They didn't know, so that was sort of interesting that people would sort of see me in that sort of counselling kind of way. [02:00:00] I would always refer people to, um, more appropriate professionals might deal with it, but sometimes just on a face to face one on one. I remember our grandparents bringing their, um, couple of the grandsons to me who were very gay and very, you know, campy. And and they were convinced they wanted to be trannies and, um were threatening to leave home. And the grandparents were looking after them and all of that sort of thing at the time, and they wanted to go to Auckland and get into the K road [02:00:30] scene and all of that and the grandparents had the foresight. Really, I'm supposed to actually bring them to me. Just ask me to talk with them for an hour and then to sort of feed back to the grandparents what I thought and I did. And a couple of years after that, I heard from the grandparents again, but also from one of the, uh, boys. And, um, they thanked me for my advice at the time that saved them from potentially [02:01:00] a, uh a, um, unnecessary deviation in their life. They were convinced they were gonna go and be, you know, queens on K Road. But in fact, they realised, really, they were just gay guys and they were really? They came before they were, and they were 17, 16, 17 years old, you know? And so that was just the prime the same time as I was to sort of, you know, gravitate there when in fact, perhaps that isn't quite what they really were. They were just having a moment, [02:01:30] so to speak, and a kind of gay puberty and adolescence. Until I settled on what they were and very much happier for them. I might have saved them a few years of chucking themselves in a frock and selling their wares on K Road and all of that kind of thing and the drug culture. So that was sort of one. I had a mother with AAA 10, 11 year old so who had naturally gravitated towards being transgender, [02:02:00] was now starting to go to school, dressed up as a girl with all the school mates and see them as a boy and all of that sort of stuff. And the mother was quite happy to to help and support this transition that was happening young to her son. But that came with not only, um, an ostracism for him at school, but an ostracism for her as a mother in the neighbourhood and the neighbours and stuff like that. And, uh, they came to I was still mayor of Carter, and I was the mayor of Carter when they came to see me about that. [02:02:30] Yeah. So, um yeah, provided, uh, you know, a lot of people would write, you know, write emails and letters and things. Can you describe for me what it was like, um, giving your maiden speech in parliament? Well, I [02:03:00] angst over what one writes that are made in speech, I guess as you as all MP S do when they're making their maiden speech. There were certain conventions about what you include in your maiden speech, acknowledgement of the queen and and, you know, so on and so forth in parliament and a few sort of obligatory and that are meant to go in there. And then it's, you know, you go on to it. I tried I. I would get halfway down the page of writing something, I think. Well, what is this rubbish I'm writing? And I normally speak off the cuff [02:03:30] and from the heart and and, you know, if I need information or a few bullet points or something I might do Jonathan Hunt, who became the speaker of that Parliament, um, wanted us all to submit our maiden speeches to him to review before we made them in parliament to make sure that they ticked all the boxes and stuff like that and that. And, um, I never submitted one. And the day of my maiden speech comes up. And not only that, the media [02:04:00] wanted an advanced copy, too, of my maiden speech, so they were all prepared for, Um, you know, as soon as I said it in the house, they could publish it. And, um when they rang me up and asked me for it in advance, I turned around and sort of said, You'll have to wait until Hansard has written it. And of course, they said, But But hands, I can't write it until you've delivered it. And I went, That's right. So I said, You can wait with everybody else because [02:04:30] I don't know what I'm going to say yet, and, um, so Jonathan was very nervous about when it came time for me to do my maiden speech because he didn't know what I was going to say in advance, and it wasn't actually an outrageous speech or anything like that. And, um, I mentioned all the things that we were meant to mention and, um, and then a few clips along the way. And it turned out to be a delightful maiden speech and brought the house down. It was like a mini Georgina [02:05:00] show, Um, for the 8.5 minutes, or have long I spoke for and I came out with one or two clipping lines, which were, 01 in particular, that was picked up by the media. And it is it will probably end up being my epitaph. It was, but I brought the house down and it was a way of breaking the ice. I think because, you know, I was the first tranny anyhow to be standing in our Parliament. And, um, there's a lot of homophobes sitting around in [02:05:30] there and a lot of uncertain people about about me being there and and I came out with my famous This is the stallion that became a gelding and then a mayor. Now I seem to have found myself to be a member, Mr Speaker and, um everyone could see the humour in that. But the, uh the sort of that briefly, succinctly sort of covered my entire life story and that in that nice, pithy little saying and it got widely reported [02:06:00] and televised and all of that and, um, and sort of endeared people. I think at the end of the day, which was good. So it was off the cuff. Um, Like I said, I mentioned all the appropriate thing. I even managed to make a quip at White Creach. Um, when I was going when I was talking through And so nothing incredibly remarkable except that I did feel at one point that I needed to acknowledge the fact that I was the first transsexual, um, in New Zealand to be elected to [02:06:30] a parliament and, um, and and the world, and that it made it sort of quite a historic moment at that time, I think as a viewer, I remember seeing it on TV, and, um, it was just amazing. It was just so symbolic. And, you know, I think for a lot of people, people often ask me if they see that any footage of it what the hell I was wearing feathers in my hair. Well, so it's on the public record. Those are feathers. I'm of [02:07:00] descent to Taranaki. But Wellington, uh, in particular, where I was born. And so I was wearing the feathers. That's why I'm wearing feathers in my hair at that time. Not because I thought I was I had some really tragic drag Hendry on. Did you ever think to yourself, um, at any time when you started in parliament, you know, [02:07:30] I'm actually finally here, Could I mean, was there ever a moment where you thought I can't believe that I'm actually in this every day. First, The first thing was when I on election night, I was in absolute disbelief that I had won because the results, the way they'd come through. And it was a long, um, results process that night on television, and I thought I was, uh, Paul Henry looked like he was going to win. But I had a surge at the very [02:08:00] end, and, um, and suddenly, you know, So I won. Well, I was in disbelief about that, then, actually turning up at parliament. So you have Election day on a Saturday. You got Sunday to get over it. And then Monday you had all new MP S head to parliament straight away, and, um, I sing around going Oh, have I got train fare? Can I get there? Because I didn't drive at that point, I didn't drive [02:08:30] a vehicle. I didn't get my driving licence until the year 2000. And, um, yes, of course I get to parliament and just disbelief that I was I'm allowed to be here. I'm I'm you know, this is my place of work, You know, Uh, the first week, um, we had to share offices with the, uh, with the other labour colleagues. Parliament hadn't quite changed all the offices and everything [02:09:00] over and put the national party and the opposition officers and vice versa. And the to the government offices. But that came about and, um, are incredible. Yeah, unbelievable. And, of course, a lot of sort of media and preliminary stuff before parliament actually sat and opened, and all of that sort of thing in preparation and just getting, um, you know, getting adjusted to this new work environment. It has to happen [02:09:30] relatively quickly, but there's an awful lot to absorb about how it's all going to work and and how it happens, but yeah, unbelievable. I couldn't believe it. I'm here and I'm allowed to be. They're calling me mom, you know, walking around. You know, all the security people at reception there. Hello. And a lot of people. Very pleased. You could see it. Even some of the staffers around Parliament, Yeah, you know, fantastic. [02:10:00] This whole sort of about me being there, you know, And of course, other politicians and that there was some sort of they all knew who I was. And there was no denying that I was ever going to be sort of a, you know, a forgotten backbencher, you know, sort of. And so from the moment I think I first went to Parliament, um, I see publicity and and profile and that are everything to a new backbencher. You've got to get as much attention, you know, to yourself. [02:10:30] And of course, it just arrived with me. I mean, and that was sort of, you know, I was going to be in the spotlight from the get go, but it wasn't like I could just skulk away into the corner of the chamber and be forgotten about or not noticed or whatever. So every time you know, the first time I was ever going to make a speech the first time I was ever going to do this and that and, um and whatever, What's she going to be like on select committees? You know, they're really interesting kind of dumb, useless [02:11:00] questions Is that thing I'm gonna be asking, You know, uh, just the human dynamics around the table of having some It's quite weird, luckily, of course, of course. And I shouldn't not forget to neglect to them. But I had Chris Carter and Tim Barnett were the only other out gay MP S in Parliament at at the time. And, of course, Chris particularly but Tim as well have had had had to deal with the, um, attitudinal culture inside parliament, um, by themselves [02:11:30] from the time that you know that they had been in and there'd been some pretty nasty, you know, Chris had famous run ins with John Banks and people like that, you know, in the day. So now I've come into parliament, and, um you know what? Marilyn Waring All those years beforehand, of course. But that's only come to pass. You know, she she didn't have to. You know that? That sort of, uh yeah, it's amazing for those of us that have [02:12:00] well, which are very few. Really? Oh, there's a lot now. I mean, Christ, just about every second person in parliament at the moment now, we just made it so common the pink of the parliament, as they call it. Um, did you find that there was much discrimination? Still W when you went in? No, I. I, um, found very little of that, and I don't think and because I had a high a high profile, [02:12:30] if I say so myself, um, leave it up to others to judge as to whether or not I had a high profile. But I had a pretty high profile for a new backbench MP, and it was going to be with me and that the profile was positive, not negative. And, um, yes, of course. There was a little bit of negativity out there from the naysayers and the fundamentalists and so on and so forth. Um, out there. But by and large, um, I was affectionately regarded by many New Zealanders. So to [02:13:00] start climbing into me on that level. Um, for other politicians, it would have been very churlish and not something that would necessarily work in their favour. They had to argue me on on policy or points or, you know, that kind of thing on the work, not the person and all my past. And of course, when things like prostitution reform came up the debate, I was one of the few that could stand in Parliament quite happily regaling my [02:13:30] my previous experience and then challenging the house to sort of say, Is there anyone else in here who's who knows it like I do? Of course it wasn't. You could have heard a pin drop. Of course, there wasn't a few shameful glances down at the floor. But, um but no, um, so, you know, that sort of sent a message that I well, you know, this is a matter before us. I've got some experience in this. I'm going to put my perspective, my experience, and it's my contribution to the debate and to [02:14:00] the house and and all of that sort of thing. And I think people just came to respect that, Um, I think I was lucky enough to enjoy, um, respect from across the house. Um, you know, go and talk to people of my era or the time that I I was in there. And for the most part, I'm sort of more well thought of than not. And, [02:14:30] uh and that's that's lucky to get in and out of parliament like that. What do you think your proudest moments are in Parliament? Mm. Oh. Oh. I can't pin them down to one, I guess. Obviously getting there legitimately being there. Um, [02:15:00] it's always a privilege. I know it's an offset cliche, but it's a privilege to serve a new parliament. Um, and And I got there on merit, and I'm proud of that. Um, I'm proud of most of the legislation that I've supported. Not all of it. Um, I've been around for [02:15:30] one or two pieces that I hate. It's like a broken record. But, you know, civil union and prostitution reform were fairly major social, um, pieces of legislation in that decade, and, um and I I was a vocal supporter of both of them. I wasn't the promulgator of them. Not at all. Um, they actually Tim Barnett was the promulgator of both of those. And, [02:16:00] um, I think I stand to be corrected. But, uh uh, but, uh, civil unions started out as a members bill and became a government bill. And, you know, at the end of the day, but, uh, he supported and prostitution reform well, again, that was definitely a member's bill. That was, uh, Tim's member's bill. And I supported him amongst others. God, I wasn't the only one. I just happened to be the one of the more reported ones, [02:16:30] so I'm proud of those debates. I'm proud of the day. Oh, God. There's lots of things you could say you could be proud of. I suppose, um, representing my electorate, uh, getting our hospital, um, doing all of the things for my electorate that I wanted to do and that they wanted me to advocate for and delivered on, um, all of that to be proud of being able to, uh, counteract [02:17:00] the event known as the Destiny Church and Brian Tamaki. And the enough is enough march. That was anti civil union bill and pro family values. And, um, and I had some celebrated clashes, public clashes with, um Brian Tamaki and one in the end, didn't I? This party got kicked to nowhere, didn't it? Um [02:17:30] and yeah, there was that, um my advocacy for for, um, significant minorities. I'm proud of those. Some of those things that I've been able to contribute to when asked and required. Yeah, proud of those. And that's about being able to use the position to assist, you know, which is what it's we are representatives. At the end of the day, there was that moment with the within [02:18:00] the civil unions where, um Brian Tamaki and the church marched to Parliament. And that day, Um, and I remember hearing, um, you speak then and strong, strong stuff that was, um to be able to stand up like that in front of such a kind of hateful audience. Well, to thank you for that, Yes. I stood on the steps of Parliament that day holding a rainbow flag For about two [02:18:30] hours. They were marching down from Civic Square and Wellington through the street and and down to Parliament. So I had no idea what the March looked like. But in the morning, early in the morning, about 6 a.m. or something like that. Now I had an apartment at Parliament on the 20th floor of Bowen House, and I was looking out the window and I could see the stage set up being put up on the forecourt of Parliament. And I thought, Gee, that's a bit more than we usually have for, [02:19:00] um, for protests. We knew that this protest was going to be happening that day, but we didn't realise. And I certainly didn't realise the imagery they were going to present to the nation when they did that March 600 men and boys dressed in black, um, doing, um, punching the air with their fists, walking down the street. Um, saying enough is enough. And it looked something like out of [02:19:30] a Nuremberg rally. And I had stood on the steps of Parliament holding this rainbow flag, waiting for them to arrive on the forecourt. Um, 8000 turned up in the end, and they all And when I and a small group about 100 and 50 of pro civil union supporters dressed in their orange and white, uh, sort of uniform for want of a better term, that was the colours of the campaign for civil unions at that time, and they were gathered [02:20:00] around the statue at Parliament and as the Destiny Church. Enough is enough. March arrived at Parliament grounds. From my vantage point on the landing on the steps of Parliament, they looked like a black cancer spreading across the front lawn of Parliament and engulfing the orange and white clothed civil union protesters. And that looked like that. And there they were, isolated and they were being. And [02:20:30] the stage set up had been set up for Brian Tamaki to do his evangelising from, um at the protest. And he arrived, accompanied by about 40 other pastors from around the country and a bevvy of henchmen. And he they marched him up to the stage like in Roman formation and that sort of thing and started off this rally, and I'm standing on the steps. Sue Kley joined me. Sue Bradford joined me. A few others, you know, MP S, who happened to be there, came out and joined me and, um [02:21:00] came and stood with me and just sort of around me and look after me. Um, up there while they're protesting. That's fine. And this famous television footage of Brian addressing that rally and I happened to remark while I'm standing on the steps at one point where he would have a blurb and then, you know, you got 8000 people responding with Enough is enough punching the air. And I just [02:21:30] said aloud, realising the press gallery and most of them come out into the steps of Parliament and I said, Oh my God, I feel like I'm standing at a Nuremberg rally. You know? I'm you know, I'm looking shocked and horrified because it did sort of feel you could feel this hatred sort of coming forth from these people in that sense and other journals and that sort of yeah, God, you know, that's pretty amazing. And after they had finished having their rally, I said to Ramon, [02:22:00] I said, I've got to go down because I could see the, um, pro Civil Union people standing around the statue and they were distressed. They were being pushed and Josh jostled and verbally abused and all of that and I just headed down to them, got through the barriers that the security had put up and stuff like that to go down and to, um to talk to them and to just sort of, you know, be with them in solidarity kind of thing. I got pushed and jostled [02:22:30] and ridiculed and abused and everything as I got there. And Ramon got very scared for me and, um, dragged me back up onto the forecourt behind the protection of the barriers and stuff like that. Now, Destiny had set up a sound system. The Rolling Stones would have been proud of big, loud megaphone, you know, full on, um, amplified system. And they were still talking. And, uh, you know, on the microphones, I think the Christian Heritage Party person was [02:23:00] yabber away. And I was I just got this angry, this this sort of anger world up in me and I marched along the front of the forecourt talking back at them and of course, I was yelling at them because they had this big, loud, loud system and as if they were listening to me and they were all taunting me and pointing at me and stuff like that, and I just stopped, and I can't remember exactly what I said, but, um, the press, the press pack ran after me and followed me because they were behind [02:23:30] the safety barriers too, and just sort of come around me and captured this interaction I had with the people it played on the television news that night. And I looked like some screaming ee because I was I was remember, I'm trying to battle be heard over a loud hailer system, and I haven't got anything like that to amplify. And so it looks like I'm like a screaming ban. And I'm saying, you know, why do you hate us so much [02:24:00] and so on and so forth and that kind of thing, And that ended up on television and it didn't look that good. Actually, some obviously there were for the gay community. And for those of our friends who supported what we would, you know, things like that, they'd be going, Yeah, yeah, you know, saying how people felt. You know why this and all of that. But luckily, the following day, Paul Holmes, on The Home Show on television, got me and Brian Tamaki, [02:24:30] um, doing a head to head in the studio. So a much more controlled and serious environment in which to debate the issue and stuff like that. And, yes, one of my proud moments. I demolished him with my arguments. Um, Brian Tamaki and with the assistance of Paul, I have to say, because he was being fair minded and balanced in his question and inquisitorial approach. But then to the end of it, you could He suddenly started to chuck [02:25:00] a few other things at Brian that, you know, because you could tell Paul was sort of really on the side of us, you know, and And my argument And Tamaki was not acquitting himself. Well, um, and so when you started asking about the tithing and the fabulous Rolex watches and your mansion house and your Queen Mary two, you know, and all of this sort of thing, you know, Brian gets very defensive during that, And so But on the serious side, I was, you know, able to [02:25:30] brush off the sort of some of the critics that were coming out and sort of saying, Oh, she's just a drama queen. You know, we're using overly emotive language and you know what do you mean? Why did they have to raise Hitler in the Second World War? You know, all of this kind of thing being being thrown, It but, uh, because that they happen to be in denial about these things is not my problem. Um, and luckily on the few television battles [02:26:00] and radio battles that I had at that time just over that particular march and the whole destiny and the Civil Union thing like that, um, you know, write one out at the end of the day, and, um, I was just a part of it. There must have been others, too, at the time, but I just sort of tended to get get a bit more attention, Really. The grunt behind it all was Tim Barnett. At the end of the day, as far as, um, shepherding through these pieces of legislation [02:26:30] and keeping the, um, the movement that's helping that to happen, uh, cohesive and happening And, um, serious and professional And, you know, and all of that and I was just a good mouthpiece, I guess, at the appropriate times to get in there and and and fight it. What? What do you think the hardest part of being an MP were? Mm [02:27:00] Oh, the long hours, the dealing with the myriad, the wide I mean, that's not a boring day. There's always something happening. I think keeping up with the pace, you know, required was was quite difficult. Um, I didn't enjoy always the discipline of collective responsibility in a government caucus having to support things I didn't really want [02:27:30] to. But I've been party whipped, you know, into doing things for sure. And as an example of that where I was disobedient. But in the end of the day, I had to capitulate and vote in favour, and I really didn't want to and then frustrated them. And Helen, I suppose by, um, still speaking out about how I felt and that I felt terrible about having to vote in favour of it. And really, once the caucus has decided that you do it, you all put on a happy phase. Yeah, we're happy about doing this. [02:28:00] Not, um, you know, and I would just sort of have to, but I guess showed some disobedience, and I think I think I might be wrong, but, um, I think that was the beginning of the end of my ever progressing any further in parliamentary politics. Um, at the 2005 election, I definitely wanted to leave, uh, then, but was persuaded to stay on for my final term and I went back as a list. MP um I wanted, [02:28:30] uh, because of the way a quote of myself during the civil unions debate and and more of that. And, um, I had a member's bill on the ballot and that at the time and after the 05 election, I was touting for a promotion of some sort. I wouldn't have mind that a minor ministerial role to start sort of moving into that level of what? I figured that I sort of paid my [02:29:00] dues. I'd done my time. I went on an electorate a couple of times and, you know, and all of that sort of thing. And, um, I think I was the ability to take on, um uh, you know, a more responsible role. But it wasn't forthcoming. So I sort of lost my mojo really about wanting to stay there for you know what for? What am I here for then if I can't, uh, professionally develop in this regard, um, I've achieved everything I said I was going to achieve my electorate. I had stood down from [02:29:30] the seat and gone back as a list member. Um, I couldn't get my members bill through the gender identity bill, uh, through because we had a much more conservative parliament, and I can still remember the caucus where of of the new caucus and after the 05 election, screaming at me to get rid of the bill because many of them had lost their seats over all of this. All of this controversial and stuff like that. And, uh, there had been a bit, [02:30:00] uh, they were a bit tired of it all. And so I didn't have the support, so that was disappointing. I had to go for plan B on that matter. And now I see that it's been somewhat addressed, Um, in the current, uh, marriage equality bill before the house, the gender identity, um, matter. So I decided to leave and way before I needed to. Um, I left in 2007. I could have stayed till [02:30:30] the 2008 election, but I thought, Well, what would I be sitting around for? You know, I tied tied off the ends of things that I wanted to achieve, and that was that and sort of sitting on my backside, and they're just raking in the money doing damn all. And I decided to leave then, and that was fine. Was it what you expected it to be? Parliament. I don't know what I expected it to be. [02:31:00] It was a place that made laws. Um, it was a place that could wield an influence over your community and things like that. Um, no, no, Parliament hasn't disappointed me. Um, at all the institution of parliament I hugely respect and admire. And, um, I think, you know, for all its flaws, we have a pretty damn good democracy in the world [02:31:30] scheme of things. And, um, a treaty can provide anyone with the opportunity to participate in our democracy if they want to. And that's becoming more and more apparent, I think, particularly under this, um, um M MP environment, the proportional representation environment. It's offered that louder and and more diverse voice to be heard in parliament. It doesn't always, um, bode well for those [02:32:00] that prefer the old way. But, um, I like the idea that we've got a lot of colour in that parliament. We don't want it to be monochrome. So you live in 2007 and between 2007. And now, in 2012, there have been a number of articles, um, with headlines, like, you know, broken living off the unemployment benefit. Um, not being able to get work. How has it been kind of leaving after leaving Parliament? [02:32:30] More difficult than actually getting there? Yes. No, no, no. It has been, um um uh, not good. And, uh, I can't quite analyse why that is, other than the odd bits of work that come along now, it's, uh it's not been good. That's exactly how it's it's It's been like I can't answer as to why. It's not as if I haven't got ability. [02:33:00] Um, although I don't have any formal qualifications. Yeah, that's very difficult. And I I'm guessing it must be quite difficult, actually. Having those kind of stories written in in news print as well. Oh, well, only from the perspective that, um it's not good when the, um, potential employer, um, Googles [02:33:30] your name. And there it is. An endorsement, Is it for people? But, uh, on the other hand, if I've had media inquiries about what am I doing? I mean I could bullshit. Um, but you know, to what end? So it just is what it is, and you tell it like it is, and they report the truth. Um, that's the truth. That's how it is. Um, otherwise they'd be writing about [02:34:00] how I was hiding the fact that I'm, you know, and all of that sort of thing. Mm. I don't know. It's hard to explain why. I mean, you know, um, there are certain jobs I don't want to do, regardless of being, you know, And Paula Bennett takes a swipe at me from time to time over that, even in the house now, because I once said in some newspaper article that it, um, yes, of course I'm out there job hunting, but I don't necessarily want to be a crew member [02:34:30] at McDonald's. Thank you very much. Oh, but there's dignity and being, you know, flipping burgers at McDonald's. Well, yeah, I'm sure there is, but not for me. I mean, you know, that's the other, you know, it's I've become used to it now, but can you imagine the first day post parliament career that I had to walk into the master work and income office, where the last time I had attended there had been with the Minister [02:35:00] of Social Development of the day or the prime minister even to visit the place, to register unemployed and ask for the Dole humiliation to the max and that I had sold all my property, my house and stuff that I had bought and all the things that I had had in order that I didn't have to go on the dole and lived off all of that sort of stuff. You know, I think a job will come, a job will come. And people [02:35:30] who you had known collegially worked with in the past might have helped Whatever in the course of your job, now, sort of almost across the street, if they see you coming, um, the doors close, um, people don't want to know, you know, because you're not a person of influence anymore of any particular standing other than that you has been now and suddenly some of the old prejudices, I think, and some of the old sort of, you know, spitefulness [02:36:00] and whatever can come back, because now I'm not in quite a strong position as I might have been when I was in Parliament or I was the mayor or I was this person that's interesting to watch that dynamic happen. There will be those within the scene. They're quite happy to have seen one tobb off one's pedestal and, um, you know, and cut down to size. It's that tall poppy thing again, and he'll be quite glad about it. And [02:36:30] then me, who's sort of bamboozled about I've got a, you know, a lot to offer. And it's not as if I haven't been out there touting and and, you know, for getting some sort of work. But then when you get confronted with, oh, you got to have a qualification in this and I'm not very good on computers and stuff like that which, you know, I managed to get through an entire 14 15 year history of politics without having a God Dan computer. And now suddenly it's important. Um, you know, yes, it helps. I can use it to a certain degree, [02:37:00] you know, and all of those sorts of things. It's, um, crazy. Oh, bits and pieces of entertainment stuff comes along, but, you know, I'm getting on a bit now. getting a bit past all of that. Um, no one's come rushing out of the woodwork, whether it be NGO S, gay advocacy groups, Um, you know, human rights organisations boards that I could serve on, um and all of that sort of thing. None of that's come up and sort of offered itself or made itself available or anything like that. [02:37:30] And yet I've I've got a world of experience. I've, you know, I've done stuff. I know how to deal with all of that sort of thing. But no, no, no. When you get journos and people like that, who sort of, you know, tell you to go and reinvent yourself and all of those sorts of things I'm thinking, you know Who the hell What do you mean, happy with the old invention? Thank you very much. You know what? I have to go and get a new one for, um [02:38:00] mhm. There have been a number of instances where there have been either documentary films made about you. Uh, there's been a biopic, but there's also been your autobiography. Why was it important for you to, uh, have your story out there and to kind of keep telling your story. The book came about. The book is called a Change for the Better, Uh, written by Kay Casey and [02:38:30] myself. And it came about I was approached by Random House to consider writing a book about my life. Um, as I was coming up to the 1998 mayoral local body elections And, um so I agreed to do one. Sort of. I was sort of reluctant because I'd never written a book before. But this colleague of mine, Cathy Casey, who is now an Auckland city councillor [02:39:00] But at that time, she was a South district councillor. So we were council colleagues. And, um, she did part time journalism as well as being a teacher, and, um, And when Random House asked me if I would consider having a book written about my life, I said, But I'm no author. I can't write, I don't want to do it. And they said that they would provide me with, um with a writer unless I knew of someone myself. [02:39:30] And I said Cathy and yes, and that's how it came about. And essentially all that happened was Cathy turned up with a tape, a tape recorder and I just sat down and we just talked and she transcribed what I said. And virtually verbatim the book is that conversation. It didn't have any editing done to him. He submitted the draught to Random House except for punctuation, spelling it. Stuff like that. Um, it [02:40:00] was fine. And so it got printed the way it was done. And that's how that got done. It got published, of course, when it was realised that I was going to run. Oh, and the book ends as I'm about to head into the 1998 mayoral election. So I had no idea what the result would be by the time the book was, you know, finishes comes to an end and, um, but of course, what happened is I did get reelected. My majority was huge, and, um and then parliament subsequently happened [02:40:30] in 99 and the book was published and went out on the shelves in 99 heading into that. So obviously the publishing company sort of timed that to go along with the consequential publicity around my election campaign and got published, I can remember I won't name her, but one reasonably senior labour MP who was to become a minister. Um, later I can remember her saying to me one day, [02:41:00] What the hell are you doing? Publishing a book now? It'd be terrible. Oh, God, the hassles you'll get from it. And because I tell all story and all of this kind of thing and it's going to be a terrible, um, blight blot on my copy pad at the time. Of course, it was absolutely contrary. The absolute opposite opposite happened. And, um so that was how the book came about. And like I say, it ends just prior to the 1998 election. And, [02:41:30] um and there's now another book to be told because of what happened after that, Um, there's a book in itself. Um, that's how the book came about. The documentary that I think aired in about 2002, uh, was made. It's called Georgie Girl. And it's a 70 minute documentary, uh, made by, um, Annie Goldson of occasional film productions, and, [02:42:00] um and she approached me just out of the blue. I have never met her in my life. I didn't know who she was, and now I was in Parliament and I think she came to me in about 2001 or something and said, you know, would you be in? No, she came to me in 2000. Actually, not long after I got elected and asked that I said no. I said I was too busy adjusting to my new work life, and I didn't need to have a fly on the wall, you know, um, documentary crew running around with me and so delayed [02:42:30] it when I was ready. And then because I didn't know her. Not that I didn't like her or anything, but I just didn't know her. And, um, felt a lot more comfortable. And we were able to bring Peter Wells on board, and so he sort of cod directed with her and, um, on it, and that's how Georgia Girl got made. And, um, it did very well for her. She's won four or five or, um, international, um, best documentary awards for, uh, Georgie [02:43:00] girl. And that was, uh, virtually a tell what it was, uh, you know, fairly open. Tell a story about me, and, um, the advantages of those kinds of doing that kind of thing is that once it's stuff is documented, and then it provides some concrete. Um, hard copy, I suppose, for, um, other people to utilise how they will So the you know, the Georgia, Uh, sorry. The, um, change [02:43:30] of the bitter book ended up on most libraries. I think it's been translated into Chinese. It's, um you know, I got three reprints. Um, it did quite well to make me any money or anything. I know that. What? You don't know it was about, but, uh, and that was that. And just a little snapshot of a period of time. Piece of our social history and the Georgia girl do really just, you know, now visually documents, um, you know, And what? Yeah, a lot [02:44:00] of stuff. But that's how I wasn't sort of a you know, I didn't go out pursuing those things. They just sort of came to me, and, um and I participated in them. Do you ever get tired of of telling your story? Yes. Yes, I guess, um, and yes and no, of course. You know, you just become, like a broken record. Sometimes you feel like you're just repeating stuff. You've said 1000 times before And, [02:44:30] you know, why does somebody ask something different? Because there's, you know, 1000 things that could tell you exactly what I've just told you now. But, uh, but I think as long as people are interested, then it's sort of incumbent upon me to regurgitate it and to bring it up again. You know, that's what people are interested in. I'm pretty sure now that, um, most of the document, you know, stuff is documented because it moves beyond just being [02:45:00] a curious human interest story into now, Um, a historical fact, some of it, you know, that's happened from a very narrow historical perspective, I suppose. But it's there and primarily politics, but also social politics. And and also, uh, you know, Yeah, just the colour of our world. And I'm just a little wee part of I'm a pixel in it. [02:45:30] Earlier on, you were you were saying that you were speaking at international conferences. Um, but I've been to a number of things in Wellington where you have been mentioned and with with much love. But you haven't attended things like the, um, human Rights conference at the art games a couple of years ago. and, uh, a recent marriage equality conference. Are you speaking in New Zealand at at kind of queer events? No. No, I don't [02:46:00] get asked. I didn't get asked to either of those things that you have mentioned, not the art games conference. And, uh, nor at the conference on marriage equality. Um, and I don't know why, uh, that, you know, But perhaps it's Georgina overkill, and, you know, and then I'm not offended by it. I mean, I sort of think, Oh, gosh, I thought I might have been asked to come along. [02:46:30] And, um, you know, just say a few words or whatever, because that's usually been the auspices under which I've gone overseas. To speak at other big, huge conferences, you know, and things is because of this New Zealand experience, but I think probably in New Zealand they're a bit over me now. And not only that, there's a new generation of political activism going on for the younger generation, many of whom, unfortunately do not have a comprehensive memory [02:47:00] of our very recent history. Um, and they know of events that have happened, but they don't necessarily know of people who did it. Um and I guess I might be falling into that category. And now that there are other, you know, it's those of us who have gone before before have laid the groundwork. Now for those who are the spokespeople and who are being pushed forward to be the advocates and to stand up and and [02:47:30] the organisations to do it. And I think people like me sometimes have got to know when to just stand back and let that happen. And if they need you and if they want you and then they and they And if they know you're available and you're there, well, you're there for them. But otherwise you got to let the baby go. You gotta let them do it for themselves because, yeah, and I think that's sort of what's happening. So, you know, and usually at those [02:48:00] things you've got a whole lot of people and keynote speakers are getting up and parroting the same thing. Just using different lingo. You know, they're more essentially on the same message, so it's a bit repetitive, you know, in that sense, uh, to do it. But, um, yeah, you gotta let them sort of. You'd like to think that they would want to seek the advice of the likes of me or others. Um, who have been there and done that? Uh, purely from an advice point of view, you know, how [02:48:30] do we go about doing this? How do we mobilise? How do we strategize? How do we get together? A collective a diverse but a a group to act collectively to move forward on a particular matter. At this instance a minute, it's, you know, marriage, equality, you know, on those things. And I think there's a growing, um, dispersement in the in the LGBTI community where, you know, they became more [02:49:00] focused on their particular issues again, you know, the marriage equality thing, I think, is a dole compared to what's gone beforehand, to lay the groundwork to provide the leverage that marriage equality becomes really not a huge it's not as hugely, you know, we didn't see a destiny church marching to Parliament yet that I know of, you know, yes, there's been a bit of, you know, a bit of comment and a bit of negativity, but it's nowhere near the volume that it has been in the past, and it's nowhere [02:49:30] near as devastating because, you know, I think by and large a large proportion of the general population are over it, you know? And, um So what are some of the things that you think, um, are still currently affecting kind of rainbow communities in New Zealand? Well, the legislative agenda is practically sewn up. [02:50:00] Marriage equality gets through. Then that's that taken care of. It will come with, um, the adoption issue, obviously is, Is another one of the majors then I think it's got to come down to access to health, social and educational. All the other issues that every single other New Zealander has an interest in. We always have had an interest in those things. Um, uh, you know, because we are citizens as well [02:50:30] and are entitled to access to all of those sorts of things. Um, some of them are going to push the boundaries a bit again, Like, you know, people will probably be horrified to know that there is a little bit of miniscule funding available for sexual reassignment surgery in this country. Uh, certainly not enough. There's this dreadful situation of, um, transgender people and the correction system. Um, and you know and other things like that [02:51:00] that need to be more forcefully enforced now you know, to be concentrated. But, you know, I think on two matters like that. But I think the the heavy legal framework issues have just about all been tidied up. What about in terms of societal change society? It's like I said before, society's attitudes take generations to change. Law is easy to change. Relatively speaking, [02:51:30] Uh, but the attitudinal change is improving vastly from what it has even in my lifetime, and certainly within the last 20 years. Certainly, since homosexual law reform 25 years plus ago, um, and social attitude has softened, um, you cannot accept just to be tolerated. We must be accepted, not just tolerated. You know, you tolerate a whining dog, you know, you tolerate a squealing [02:52:00] cat. We know you just don't. You know we don't want to be tolerated anymore. The levels of tolerance the society can take it. Excuse me, I'm a human being, and I'm a citizen of this country, and we're taxpayers and generally law abiding. I expect exactly the same treatment as any other New Zealand citizen receives. Don't wanna have to grizzle over how my passport looks because I happen to be a transgender person. I don't want to have to, you know, put up with the omy of [02:52:30] in court having my butch name called out. Because that's how I was once known as when I have, for legal reasons and legally, forever being this way. I was outraged privately when the family of a transgender person who died in a plane crash in the South Island was paid the indignity of being buried as a man. I mean, you know, and no one to defend her for that, you know, for for that happening because of the family's decision [02:53:00] over how they were going to deal with it. I want to see those kinds of things. That's about an attitudinal change that is deep seated and very hard to just change overnight. It takes time and it takes, You know, I think we've got to cut out of a generation or two because they die off for that for that to become less of an issue. So you look to the younger generation to the Children of today who by and large are holding more softer view views on these [02:53:30] issues, uh, than my contemporaries or your contemporaries and those of our generation out of the baby boomer generation. Then once we get over the baby boomer generation and those sort of attitudes we're starting to see and not just about LGBTI issues but over a whole lot of other social issues, um will change over time. But it does take attitude takes time to change. And it will only change if the contribution that we as a significant minority in this country [02:54:00] continue to prove that we can work and and participate in our society alongside everybody else, making exactly the same contributions. We work, we pay tax. Um, we raise Children, we have families. Uh, we maintain law and order and all of those kinds of things. And there should be no no discrimination, no difference between what we are entitled to as citizens as anyone else. And, um, [02:54:30] that it might challenge your moral, um, issues as again their problem that we live with. And and that is what we're trying to to change, you know, we're trying to alter that II I No, I won't use the word. We are not looking for forgiveness here. There is nothing to forgive. Let's get that straight to begin with. Um [02:55:00] And so you know, if we've got to put that religious thing on it, you know, Christianity has got a hell of a lot to to to answer for and the misery it's wrought across, you know, upon some people's lives because of, um, belief and faith. And I think it does a disservice to the true sense in my view of what Christian goodness is meant to be when some, um, have have skewed religious to mean certain [02:55:30] things that exclude others or dominate others. Or, um, you know, makes us out to be the bad guys mean, You know, most of the rapists in this world are not gay, and, um, it's erroneous and and and completely wrong. I mean, this whole idea that that has been profited by the sensible Oh, by Garth McVicar uh, that, um, to have same sex [02:56:00] marriage might promulgate in the future. More criminal Children. Um, I can remember having an argument with with, uh Graham Capel, who was then the leader of the Christian Heritage Party in mid 19 nineties. In 1996. Actually, I was mayor of Carterton and Parliament had passed the birth Deaths and Marriages Registration Act. And, um, and it included the postoperative transsexuals could have, [02:56:30] uh, seek a certificate. Um, that would have them, uh, deemed as female or in their reassigned gender. And, um and he got on the TV and was all outraged about that. And the next thing you know, they'll be wanting to adopt Children and have families. And my argument to him was from what you are denying that I should be allowed, You know that people like me and others, you know, shouldn't be able to raise families and things. It was to know that that man was to be done a few years later for paedophilia. And, [02:57:00] um, and there'll be other, upstanding, solid member of our community, um, preaching at me and others like me, you know, to the nation, trying to suck us all into that he's the good, pious person. And turns out and haven't we found out how many of those solid, cornerstone, upstanding figures in our society have turned out to be some of the most heinous sexual abusers? Um, around as we've seen in recent history. So the hypocrisy is immense. And, [02:57:30] um, you know, again, you know, attitudes have got to change. We're not all like that. And I'm, as you know, outraged by those kinds of crimes as anyone else, but to deny me or any of my communities, you know, the gay community or whatever the right to have family family is so different these days. Uh, general [02:58:00] definition, you've got blend. You got all sorts of families, and you tell me if anyone is more or less disadvantaged by having two loving parents who may be of the same sex raising Children as opposed to a struggling solo parent trying to raise Children I mean, what are you gonna tell me? That they are all criminals, too? Or that they are all some moral degenerates? Some, maybe, Ferals, as Michael laws look, likes to call them. But not all of them, You know, I like [02:58:30] that. Good God. John Key managed to be raised in a low income poverty, you know, lived in a state house and so on and so forth and all of that, and he turned out all right. Um, you know Paula Bennett, you know, there we are shining star solo Mum managed to cream it off. The old taxpayer with the, um, with the advantages she got on the benefit. And as soon as she becomes the minister wipes it, Um, you know, hypocrisy. It's called, um, you know, double standards. You know, [02:59:00] it's, um yeah, it's incredible, but we'll get there a little. A little change. It's, uh, you know, I'm glad that there is a a young generation now, maybe getting a second generation now of LGBTI people who are living in a much nicer world and kinder world more, more, um, less forgiving world [02:59:30] in many respects, um, than what I experienced or what my those have gone before me experienced. And that's as it should be. I mean, what what's the whole point when you find yourself thrust into the limelight or the spotlight or whatever, when you're in a unique position to have somehow helped that change to occur? Um, that if they forget the young ones these days, forget their history a bit or don't pay quite the, uh, respect and acknowledgment of [03:00:00] their predecessors. That's fine. You know, far better for me to get bitchy about stuff like that. Um, you know, as long as they are well adjusted And, you know, being becoming the positive role models that we need to perpetuate, you know, into the future that we can all work pretty much in whatever sphere we wish to go into and be who we are. Um, you know, it was 30 years [03:00:30] ago, and a little bit more Where mean, particularly, just could never come out for it might risk their livelihood. Um, risk their, um, their freedom. You know, they could have been arrested, chucked in jail, you know, Uh, yeah, that's all changed pretty quick, Really? In the scheme of things, who do you look up to? Who do you admire? [03:01:00] We'll get inspired by. Oh, God. Um, well, obviously the upholders of human rights and civil rights I mean, other than, you know, the Martin Luther Kings of this world. The JFKS. You know, all of those kinds of global figures. Um, and, uh, from a Maori cultural perspective, I think, you know, people [03:01:30] like that, um, and, uh, people who just sort of pushed the boundaries a little bit. Who did it? Perhaps even without knowing it. Certainly in my own sphere, the likes of Chris and Carmen and and all the other trannies who were doing the drag shows and had to run between the clubs and men's clothes and all of that kind of thing. You know, um, they didn't know they were [03:02:00] just doing what they had to do. Um, but each little step provided a platform eventually so that, you know, a decade or two later, someone like me happens along and things happen because, you know, attitudes and visibility has been there. Visibility is quite important. And I guess if if, if my experience has been of any value, um, for our scene, that's the visibility that it's provided, um [03:02:30] and that it wasn't a caricature, it was a real a real, a real situ. It wasn't just a, um, and entertainment value. It was something more serious than that. And, um and there's a public record of achievement, too, and I just don't mean elections and things, but I you know, stuff done that despite the hub that happens around the media and the sort of. But, you know, you can reflect. As I've said [03:03:00] before, you can reflect back on how I've been written up and talked about, and my willingness. I have to bear some culpability here because I have participated and all of that exposure I didn't need to. I got to shut the door at certain points and kept it and kept it contained for want of a better term. But that would only probably inspire of the scrutineers, even more wanting to get into it. Because anything that so I've thrown it all out there. And in many [03:03:30] respects it's diffused and diluted Any potential for a great sensational explosion of something that could be quite devastating in a career? If I if if if I had kept secret that I was a transsexual and if I had been been successful in my political pursuits, as as it turned out to be. But that was a secret that nobody knew. Well, given my back story on the street [03:04:00] scene and the scene anyhow, how on earth could that I couldn't have got on national television? And so I said, Oh, no, I'm a street lady, you know? Oh, no. I hope to have marry and have Children one day and played this whole facade. I'd been outed at the drop of a hat just like that And, um, there's no point in living a lie. Why would you want to live a lie? Shouldn't have to live a lie. Didn't have to live a lie. And for me, that was hugely liberate, liberating. And it's [03:04:30] been hugely liberating for all of those that have been able to be out and be who they are. And whatever walk of life they have chosen whatever path they have chosen to, to be who they are. Much, much happier people, you know, to be you are It's not a secret. Do you want him to hide this thing? It's like, you know, my mother's here or whatever to have been a solo mother and pregnant. Was she? You were shoved away for nine months in the boondocks [03:05:00] somewhere to have the baby secretly. And you know, all of that horrible, horrible stuff that used to happen with alienation. Um, so visibility is a, um it's been, you know, relatively important factor. And some of the that surround surrounded me. I'm has been. Now it's all over, you know? You know, that's all sort of put to bed, I suppose, [03:05:30] in that respect. And that's fine, because the next the next generation have come along to assume the mantel as it should be. And it's our responsibility as the older generation to hold a hand out to help them through and to bring them through. Uh, you know, we can't get all selfish and go back into our own, you know, and just leave it up to them. Let them, you know, if they require [03:06:00] it, you know, if they need it, if they want it back to that thing about the conferences and stuff like that now, here in New Zealand, well, you know, I was pretty over exposed during my time of public office, and so it doesn't surprise me that they move on to the new ones that are coming through. I'll be very interested to know who the next transsexual to be elected into our Parliament is going to be. And, um and just on that, uh, I think that would, you know, I might not [03:06:30] have been able to do what I have done if I hadn't been for a major political party. Um, even though I was reluctant to begin with, a major political party wasn't happy for me to be under the banner so to speak. So, um, that was sort of helpful and sort of because it wasn't like I just came in on some fringe party into Parliament or, you know, the greens. They might have expected me to be in the green party [03:07:00] or something, you know, which possibly would, Uh, But, uh, that was a party that was going to hold government. And I served in a government, not just in a parliament, and that was sort of a different experience from someone. I mean, I can proudly say that all I ever knew in my parliamentary life was being in government. I was never in the opposition. Not many MPs can say that. Not only that, I got into parliament and out of parliament [03:07:30] with my nose relatively clean. At least I got to make a valedictory speech. Not everybody else did. Certainly not that it failed. Maybe, uh, just finally, um, I saw a piece from the New Zealand Herald in 19 in 2005, and it was five things I've learned so far. And I'm thinking, Can I read these back to you and bite you in the backside? Sometimes. But [03:08:00] the trouble with speeches off the top of your head, but they're really cool things. And the five things that you you you noted down were one be who you are. Yes, I stand by that I have been and you continue to be, which is incredibly II. I have so much admiration. Um see challenges as opportunities. Yes. Yeah, because, um, otherwise [03:08:30] it gets you down And that that that goes back to my sort of, um, some of the reflections I had on suicide and and and bad things that have happened to you. You can walk around with a chip on your shoulder or your like or else you can, you know, meet the challenge and sort of know, I'm There's something better than that, you know, and I should have a go at it. Don't dispose of past experiences. No, don't dispose of past experiences at all. Um, you know that [03:09:00] history, for better or for worse, is is your makeup. It's what makes you who you are. It's what sustains you. Until now, I'm not saying live in the past or or wallow in it or anything, but just as a as a marker, you know, it provides points of reference, I think be upfront. Oh, for sure. Well, in my life, that's definitely been an advantage. [03:09:30] Some might think it's been a disadvantage. And even though you know, some could say, Say, Well, look at the results of it like right now what I'm having. But no, it's, um Yeah, and the final one was Believe in what you say, but think before you say it. Oh, they they they were all pretty sensible. I thought those, um yeah, think before you say something sometimes because, you know, you don't want to unnecessarily, [03:10:00] um, stomp on other people's manner, you know, or at least, um, agree to disagree, you know, on some things. I mean, I don't like a lot of the in doctrinal attitudes of the Brian of this world or the Garth MC Vickers of this world or the macro of this world. Those who have a different view. But I'll defend their right to say it. [03:10:30] And I prefer to see eyeball to, you know, look in the eyes of my enemy rather than those that work subversively out of sight like the exclusive brethren did in the 2005 election. Um, You know, um, I like to look into the face of it and and, um, you know, carry it on there, so Yeah, well, thank you so much. I mean, we've been talking for I think about 2.5 hours. It goes, [03:11:00] goes very fast, but, um look, I, I think, um, if you asked about everything you wanted to know No, no, no. What was some of the other questions that might have been better? No. We've got a lot of ground. It It's been it's been great, but, um, thank you so much, because, um, I think there are a whole lot of people out there that really admire, um, what you've done and who you are. And, um, just seeing you in [03:11:30] parliament, I mean, this The symbolic nature of that gives so many people hope. But did they feel the same way with Chris? And with Tim and with Marion and with Charles and with Grant and Marilyn Waring? Of course. I think she's revered in that regard because of her experience, which is incredible. And, um, you know, many others, Um um for the transgender world. Yes, uh, but I think [03:12:00] apart from that I'm I'm not so special. Um, I think people just enjoyed at the time the whole spectacle of this unconventional politician arriving on the national stage and then the international stage legitimately, cleanly. She's not the stereotypical [03:12:30] training. And yet she has been, you know, and all of that. And there was just a whole lot of elements I think that gave people more rather than you know, more people rather than not a sense of a You know, I feel good about this. I don't feel badly about it. Good honour. You know, there's some kind of sort of underdog battler from Struggle Street did. [03:13:00] Well, just to punch a phrase off John Banks, Um, that I was mayor of his hometown makes me happy. Yeah. I mean, I kind of think it was actually, um, for me personally that, you know, we have a a strong person that knows who they are that is doing the right thing. And actually, III, I really admire that.

This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.

AI Text:September 2023
URL:https://www.pridenz.com/ait_rainbow_politicians_georgina_beyer_profile.html