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So how long have you been an MP? 6.5 years. And have you been out that whole time? Cool. Um, what is your How has your life changed from being in the public eye or before you were an MP. Um well, I think that obviously there's, uh you've got a higher profile. You're a public figure. So people feel that, uh, your [00:00:30] personal life is their business. Um, but, you know, frankly, because I've never been, uh, particularly concerned about people knowing about my sexual orientation that really doesn't worry me terribly much when you became, um, more publicly viewed. Did you receive any negative feedback or positive feedback from being queer? I was surprised at some of the tone of the reportage of my, [00:01:00] uh, election. Uh, some of it was openly homophobic, including from the Dominion post. Um, the tone of it was to the effect that a gay lawyer from, uh Wellington Central Just what the Labour Party needs sort of thing. And I felt that that was an interesting reflection on the way that stereotypes were applied. And it surprised me that in a city [00:01:30] as progressive as Wellington, that would be a perspective that would emerge from our major newspaper editorially. Um, what do you think that we can do as a country to try and change the sorts of reactions that occur when people come out of square? Publicly? Well, I think probably, you know, in the 6.5 years that have elapsed since then, Um, although it's a short period of time, attitudes have probably changed somewhat anyway. And it would be surprising if that were to happen to somebody. [00:02:00] Now, um, at least in a big city like Wellington, you know, maybe it would still be harder in provincial New Zealand. So I think, um, what we can do is live our lives openly and proudly. Uh, and I think we can and should insist that the same sort of dignity and respect has [00:02:30] accorded us as anybody else. Um, you know, it certainly made me sensitive to the need to do that whenever anyone has denigrated on any basis. And I think we all need to if we if we want to, I think insist on the right to be treated with dignity, which we all should. We should also remember that that confers a bit of a duty on us to speak up when when others are put [00:03:00] down for irrelevant reasons. Do you think, uh, queer people are represented equally in in Parliament and, well, I think on a numeric basis, um, the number of out queer people is probably a little bit smaller than the general population. Uh, there are more gay out gay men in parliament, and there are out lesbians. [00:03:30] Um, so there are inequalities and disproportions. Um, I'd certainly like to see more out gay people in the place. And I think, uh, you know, it will be good to see our society and our politics evolve. So that will be something that does happen. On the other hand, looking at other jurisdictions like Australia or the states [00:04:00] of Australia, you know, the Commonwealth or the States. We seem to be a safer place for people to be out as politicians than they do, just judging by the numbers. So, uh, we should be better, but we're not as bad as, uh as we could be, I suppose. What do you think that we could do again as a country to, um, make the people less underrepresented in Parliament? or positions of power. Well, again, [00:04:30] I think, um, as members of a community or as members of a group, we probably should be a bit more vocal about insisting that every political party on our rights and our expectations, I think probably we've got into a bit of a rut where we, you know, we kind of assume that the greens and labour will be broadly on side and the other parties may or may not be, [00:05:00] Um and I think, you know, we should We shouldn't kind of settle for that. We should insist that every party be, um you know, either either be expressly responsive to our needs as as a community or as members of a community or say so you know, quite openly that they're not seeking our vote and not seeking our support. Um, in which case, you know, we we've got a clear signal about whether we should support them or not. And we don't really have that culture or that consciousness in New Zealand. [00:05:30] It's There's a you know, if if I hear again the you know, somebody say, Oh, you know I'm not political or I'm not partisan. I mean, it's just unrealistic. People need to insist that parties do take on our perspective or as I say, um, send them a very clear message that they're not interested in them. What can we do to get people more involved in politics? Do you think it's a It's a really good question. And, [00:06:00] you know, 20 years ago I would have said, um, it's all about campaigns. It's about homosexual law reform, human rights, civil unions now marriage, equality. Um, But of course, one of the ironies is that the more progress we make on those particular issues, which is why some of us were motivated to go into politics in the first place. Um, in a way, there's less of an incentive for people to want to become involved in politics, to be able to change laws [00:06:30] or policies. Uh, that are discriminatory. So, um, I suppose in one sense we might be victims of our own success. On the other hand, you know, there are always important issues that need to be confronted, For example, safety and education, the safety of young people growing up. Um, the fact that you know there is still discrimination in our society. I think probably it's It's helping people understand that [00:07:00] one of the easiest ways to exercise direct influence over those things is to sit in this place and, uh, either influence the shape of laws or influence the way in which government policy is formed and exercised. And I think if people have that be a better appreciation of that, um rather than the kind of lens through which they look at politics at the moment, which is a jaded one, thanks [00:07:30] to the media and thanks to social and popular conceptions of politics, then we'd probably be a better educated and more active politically, uh, society. What do you think that we can do to decrease the amount of bullying and suicide rates in you? Well, I think, you know, in the end, we have to insist on a society that exercises zero tolerance around [00:08:00] homophobic and gender-based bullying. And, you know, I think the reality is we are still very much for all our advance as a bit of a frontier society. You know, it's still very hard as a kid growing up in the suburbs or in the provinces you do get exposed to, um uh uh a majority heterosexual culture that is aggressive about promoting itself. And, [00:08:30] uh, so we have to We have to, particularly in schools, have a an insistence on an environment that is safe and where people can feel that they can express themselves legitimately without being put down for it. And, uh, you know, again, we've made some progress in that area, but I think it needs to be an express expectation on schools that that will be the environment in which our young people can, [00:09:00] uh, you know, form themselves in those really important years. What was high school like for you? Well, most of it was spent at Gisborne Boys High, which was a, you know, a pretty macho environment and a rugby dominated culture. But the saving grace, I think for me was the fact that my last year at school was 1985 which was [00:09:30] the year that homosexual law reform began. And so it was a subject that was being widely discussed for the first time. And I was able, I think, to come out with a relative degree of safety at school in my final year. Uh, thanks to the fact that the debate was going on? Um, it created a an environment for me that allowed me to to to discuss that issue openly. And, [00:10:00] uh, so, you know, I think, um, I think for that reason, it was it was better and easier than it could have been. And did you face any discrimination when you did come out of high school? I don't recall any. Um, but I think, you know, one of the issues we all face about coming out is that you know, you you you never know, uh, what might be said about you behind your back or what opportunities you might be missing out on. Um, you just hope that the fact that you you have kind [00:10:30] of liberated yourself makes up for a lot of that. Was there any un education at the time, or any groups or anything that you could go to as a as a young, queer person? No. Um, no. There was There was really nothing by way of peer support. It was. But as I say, because of homosexual law reform, there was an awareness. There was a local group of people who although they didn't declare [00:11:00] themselves to be openly gay or lesbian. They were a kind of lobby and support group for reform. And obviously, you know, that was a group I made contact with. And it happened to have gay and lesbian people in it. Uh, so that was and that wouldn't I think, have been something that would have happened were it not for the fact of the of the bill being discussed and who are your queer heroes, for for myself as a lawyer [00:11:30] and a person with legal and human rights related responsibilities. Michael Kirby, the Australian retired judge who I recently served on a UN committee with, is probably my, um, most serious sort of queer role model. He's been a person who's been in public life, been out, had a relationship, Um, and, you know, done important things legally [00:12:00] and socially for the queer community. Um, my other heroes, I think, would be those who've who aren't necessarily even queer but who've led movements for change, Uh, that have have had a big effect positively for us. I think about obviously Fran Wild. Um, Catherine O'Regan now, uh, Tim Barnett, but also the people that that worked strongly with them [00:12:30] during those campaigns. People like Helen Clark, Jenny Shipley, Ruth Richardson. Um, you know, they've been they've been very significant people in our public life who've who've done a lot to eliminate barriers to equality for us. Do you think your sexuality affected whether or not people voted for you? Well, I certainly know that there are people in, uh, the electorate that I stood in who didn't vote for me because I'm gay. [00:13:00] I know that because it's a stronghold of the exclusive Brisbane, and they made their views very clear when they drove past our placards and our, uh, our electorate presence when we were kind of sign waving. And what have you, Um, how major that is I couldn't tell you. As far as you know, Um, a net effect on on the, uh, on the actual outcome. Um, have you faced any ho homophobia you don't think you would have faced had you not been in the public eye? [00:13:30] Yes. I think the Dominion Post editorial that I referred to, um, there's a particularly nasty Fairfax commentator called Rosemary McLeod who, you know, one day, once upon a time, was actually quite progressive, but has got sort of nuttier and more conservative in her old age. And she has a particular, uh, I think polemic approach to gay people in public life. Those of us who dare to speak out and, you know, sort of demand that we should have equality, [00:14:00] I think are regarded by her as particularly, uh, wrong headed, Um And I you know, the more on a more intangible level there is, um, you know, there's a section of the commentariat of New Zealand, uh, and talk back radio and in certain print media who probably would never come out with express homophobic sentiments. But, [00:14:30] um, whose entire perspectives are coloured by, uh, a clear lack of tolerance for any out gay or lesbian people in public life. What about in Parliament itself, like the marriage equality bill readings or anything? Um, ironically, because he is a very strong supporter [00:15:00] of marriage, equality and somebody who I've really enjoyed working with, Uh, that's from the National Party, who's, you know, demonstrated that he is clearly on side on this stuff has been one of the people who, you know, has not hesitated to in, uh to engage in banter across the house that clearly has a homophobic tinge. So, um, I guess what we have to do is disregard that in favour of the, uh, of the voting record. But sometimes it's a little bit [00:15:30] hard to swallow. I have to say, How do you deal with homophobic statements? Well, I think you just have to, um, deal with them in the way that you deal with all bullying, which is not give the bully the satisfaction of showing that it's a hurtful thing to do. Um, and I think it's important to have a group of people who are supportive of you without question who you can vent to. Uh, you know, when you come back to your office and want to talk [00:16:00] about how stink it makes you feel basically to have to put up with that sort of thing. Um, but, you know, I think it is important that you show some strength and not give them the satisfaction of showing that those sort of things, you know, still hurt. Are there any, um, positive experiences that have come from you being publicly out? Oh, yeah. I mean, and And I think you know the reason that probably I had to think a bit about the negative experiences before I could put my finger [00:16:30] on them is that they they are far outweighed by the positive experiences. You know, the number of people, younger people from schools who send you emails or Facebook or whatever. Just saying, You know, look, it's really great to know that you're in Parliament, that you've been speaking out about the importance of marriage, equality or safety in schools or whatever the issue. Um, you know, it's the the the The fact that people take the [00:17:00] time to let you know that you know what you're doing is important. Does make a difference. Does contribute to that safer and more positive environment by the fact that you are in public life and being out and speaking out on the issues and wanting to be an advocate and a representative, Um, they are they are incredibly positive experiences, and there are a lot of them. People are are good and generous like that. And are you glad you publicly came out? I've been glad since about the age of 15 [00:17:30] or 16 that I've never been in the closet. I couldn't live my life that way. Can you think of any motives for anyone to not come out that might be in Parliament. Right? Um, II. I can certainly understand why some people, particularly in conservative political parties, would find it difficult. Um, I, you know, can think of examples of people [00:18:00] who I think are probably gay who have been in politics, haven't been able to bring themselves to come out. Um, because their upbringing, their families, their peer groups, their ambitions, all those things lead them to think that if they came out, they might lose one of those things that are really important to them. Um, as I say I can I can envisage [00:18:30] their thought processes. Uh, I don't think that it's the right approach, uh, from the point of view of their well-being and mental health, and I certainly think it does a lot of damage. So do you currently have a same sex partner? Uh, do you find yourself treated differently at public engagements or anything, or are people surprised? Um, generally speaking, if we've been invited to something as a couple, [00:19:00] they will know that it's two men coming, So it's really only on the sort of odd occasion when you show up and you say This is my partner who happens to be a man that you can see. Perhaps there's a little bit of a surprise initially, but again, I think people are pretty generous. I remember when I was guest of honour at, um um, one of the birthday celebrations of the Prophet Muhammad from the Muslim community in Wellington. And my partner and I discussed with, [00:19:30] you know, it was something we wanted to do together. We had it was an invitation to me and my partner to attend, and we thought, Oh, well, you know Chris Carter had his ethnic affairs minister gone to a lot of these sorts of events with his male partner. And, you know, part of the role is all about breaking down barriers, so we thought we would, um But Dave said, Look, I'll II. I don't want to kind of make them feel uncomfortable at their own [00:20:00] event. I'll I'll be sort of in the background. And they were the ones who said, Oh, look, your partner come forward here. Here's the sit together at the meal and you know, So I think again, we, um we certainly shouldn't, um, subject ourselves to sort of internalised homophobia in those sort of situations. Um, and I think you know it. It it is an important part of being a public figure that [00:20:30] when you are with a partner, you you act as as you expect to be treated. What do you think about the, um, wording of the Human Rights Act when it comes to trans people? Well, I think it's, um, a deficiency that there isn't an express, um, provision protecting trans people. You probably know that there's an opinion from the Crown Law Office which says that, um, [00:21:00] the ground of sex and the Human Rights Act would almost certainly be interpreted by a New Zealand court to include transgender status. Um, so it may well be that the substantive protection is already there. It's just not made express or explicit. Um, I think it ought to be. Do you think that's something that needs to change? I agree with the Human Rights Commission report [00:21:30] to be who I am, that it is one of the legislative changes that we need to make in order to achieve full formal legislative equality in New Zealand. So what kind of support do you get from the queer community? Um, well, I mentioned earlier that, you know, there's a lot of individual support on the basis of social media and email and what have you, And that's that's always really nice. Um, [00:22:00] probably, I would say less formal support from organised groups like Rainbow Wellington I. I don't I haven't really sort of encountered any any expressed support from groups like that. And what do you think that we can do to have, uh, more queer people supporting MP S in Parliament? Queer MP S? Well, you know, I think, um, it's a two way street. [00:22:30] We need as MP S to make our communities aware of what we're doing. Uh, in respect of queer issues, Um, I remember when I was campaigning to get rid of the so called gay panic defence, the partial defence of provocation. Um, I found it a little bit frustrating that there wasn't really a whole lot of interest from our communities and issues that were seen as quote unquote political. And yet, you know, this was a [00:23:00] This was AAA legal matter that, you know, I found really offensive and a lot of queer people when I spoke to them and explained the issue. Also did, um I guess what I would really like to see would be more of the sort of education around civics that I spoke of earlier, where people are encouraged to kind of understand the way politics works formally [00:23:30] and and and a and a discrete sense in the education system. And, um, I think, um, certainly, if we're going to make progress on issues like safety in schools, we're gonna need a lot more pressure from our communities. And that's got to be done in an organised way. And it's got to be, um it's got to be, [00:24:00] uh, a dialogue where the community says to its representatives in Parliament, This is what we want and we'll support you to, um, make this happen. But, you know, and I think that dialogue is is missing. You know, we have gay and lesbian MP S, but it's quite difficult to be accountable to a community that is so diverse and so lacking in formal organisational structures. So what do [00:24:30] you think about the underrepresentation of gender minorities in parliament? Well, I hope it's a I hope it's, uh, a phenomenon that will diminish with time. Um, I mean, I you know, I think Georgina Baer was a real trail blazer. Um, I think N MP has probably helped [00:25:00] in terms of getting the representation of women up generally, although, you know, it's not something you can even relax about. Um, my own view is that probably, you know, again our communities need to to state some expectations of political parties, which are the kind of the intervenor between them and or between the people as it were and the parliament [00:25:30] and and to say, You know, we expect you to put forward party lists and to select candidates that show us that we are, uh, parts of a community whose whose votes you value and and one of the ways you do that, apart from espousing our issues, is selecting from our communities.
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