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Dog. Yes. OK, [00:00:30] OK. [00:01:00] Um, so, yeah, Thank you. Everyone for coming. Um, we're relatively new at this. So, um, just bear with us. Um, yeah. So, uh, the panel that we're having today is just, um, in regards to the elders in our community. And, um, some of the experiences that they've had with, um, law reform, um, and paving the way [00:01:30] for the rights that we have today. So, yeah, we just kind of want to hear from them. Yeah. Their views on how they feel, the kind of landscape culturally has changed over time. Um, for everyone in the rainbow community. And, um, yeah, just to speak to certain issues that they may face, um, being rainbow elders specifically. And if there's any campaigns that they were involved in Just a bit more detail about that, because we see history is really important for us to um, yeah, remember [00:02:00] now, Um, So we're just gonna be doing intro introductions, uh, name pronouns and what you do. Um, So my name is Maggie. I use Say them pronouns. Um, I'm a phone counsellor with youth line. I'm also a youth worker with inside out. Um, and, um soon to be a, um a youth worker with schools out. [00:02:30] Cool. Um, my name is Rosie. I share her pronouns. Um, I Yeah, do some volunteering with inside out, such as this event. And, um yeah, do work. Um, in the healthcare sector. Um, my name is Georgina Buyer Ms Georgina buyer. That's all you need to know. Um, former politician, former sex worker, [00:03:00] Um, and a community worker. And a whole range of things which I won't go into now because there are more interesting people than I on the panel. Uh, my name is Colin. Um, you can call me Colin. Um, I'm OK with he is as well. Um, my background is in education. I spent many years in education now sort of semi retired by doing a lot of work, particularly amongst the faith communities [00:03:30] and the LGBT community, and trying to just do a lot of the reconciliation of bridging. You know that because of the divides that have taken place. So that's my privilege. Um, Kay Jones. I'm a facilitator of many online groups, Um, like Wellington Bisexual women's group, Wellington Interfaith Community, Wellington Unitarians Group. I help run hackathons in the tech [00:04:00] sector I'm a member of more groups than I can name in the time we have available. And I'm also, um, fifth generation New Zealander, third generation Wellington. And my grandmother used to babysit Don Brash father. Sorry, Pacific. I'm Prue Hyman. Um, I describe myself as a lesbian feminist economist, amongst other things. Alternative economist. [00:04:30] Um, but I'm now in inverted commerce and, uh, within lesbian communities I've done, um, I've done, um, a variety of things. My current main activity is, uh, lesbian radio, uh, which is on access on Sunday mornings. And, um, is, uh, try it got broader and appeals to the whole queer community. Um, my name. Bruce Mitchell. [00:05:00] Thank you so much for organising the event this afternoon. Um, then they as pronouns and I wear a number of hats, but the two main ones is I'm a counsellor psychotherapist. With that, I work part time, and I'm the executive director and co-chair of it. 10 and six. Trust A in New Zealand, and it's wonderful being here this afternoon, everyone. [00:05:30] I'm Amanda La Hare. Uh, my occupation. Basically primarily as a gender illusionist. So I create the illusion of gender and an entertainment forum and, like, I'm I'm really I don't know whether Elder is the right word for me, but I'm grateful to have this opportunity to be part of this project. Thank you. And I forgot to add she or they, um, I [00:06:00] thank you. Um, so our first question, um, just to open it up. Um, is could you speak about your coming out experience specifically how you identified when you came out or whether there's been sort of changes in that over time and how you feel that was influenced by your surroundings? I came out, I suppose, at the Georgina speaking, Um um, out at the age of 16. It was around [00:06:30] 1975. Um uh, when I did come out and assume and must begin my transition, it was very definite. I knew exactly what I wanted. Once I had learned and discovered that I could be, uh, because back in those days, you were, um uh, homosexual. You were lesbian. Um, and you had drag queens, but there was no sort of transgender distinctions or anything like that in those times. Uh, before I was more educated [00:07:00] and understood. Um, I thought I might be homosexual. uh, the manifestations of my transsexual, which is the which is AAA similar story for many, if not all of us, Um, is that it manifested itself before the age of five. the displays of it still remained with me until I was 789. Uh, the social and parental disapproval, um, was immense. And, um, and very [00:07:30] overpowering. So one tended to hide it until I rested myself away from the establishment, including family, in order to go out and discover that I was able to achieve I always wanted to achieve and nothing. And no one ever since then has ever been able to change that. I have been utterly certain in who I am. In fact, I was liberated the day I burned everything that was male about me, me, me up. But Scottie and Mel will tell you that story because he was there. [00:08:00] My contact with the rainbow community, um, seriously began in Wellington in about 1976 when I met people like Mal Vaughn and flattered with, um we were flattered together, and they, uh, guided me into, uh, what was to be my transitional period, I think, And thank God for that, um, Carmen's coffee lounge. There were safe places where you could be, but we were still ultra marginal. Absolutely. Even within our own rainbow community. Gay men didn't want to be seen out with drag queens on [00:08:30] the street because I might spring them. This is the sort of culture that we tended to exist and not be sprung amongst ourselves. We could be cool, but not outwardly in public. I'll finish there as my coming out experience and pass on to others. Thank you. Um, so I was a product of the mid fifties, which meant that by the time we got to the end of the sixties, I was discovering an attraction to boys, Um, didn't understand it. I was brought up in a conservative [00:09:00] evangelical church. My parents were ministers, and we'll talk a bit about that in a moment. Um, however, when I was about 16, as a result of them retiring, moving away, I was sent to board with another family, and, uh, the dynamics changed. And I discovered the gay subculture that existed in Christchurch in the early seventies. I discovered, um, that Well, I didn't think there were any other people like me. I found there [00:09:30] were a lot of married men who actually wanted to know people like me. Uh, and I discovered a lot of interesting people, but of course you didn't talk about it. And you know, you you always try to be the best little boy you could, you know, getting the best grades you could at school and being focused on that when I was about 20. I remember one time, and now you'll understand that, you know, bars and clubs didn't really exist that far. And the place gay men would meet was be out doing the beat. In other words, you cruising [00:10:00] in public toilets. And I do recall the police on one occasion discovering me there and wonder and making a very clean, uh, statement that you know what we do with boys like you. We lock you up. It sent me into trying to lock down. And I wanted to sort of, you know, I don't want to be like this anymore, But the church couldn't help. My church were totally inept. I drifted on and sort of keep being that dual personality. I had 22 person until [00:10:30] 1986 now I'd started coming out slowly to family. It was an ongoing process. But in 1985 law reform, my church, the Salvation Army, of which I was a member and proud to be you may remember, made a statement. They were going to visit every house with a petition and we had some horrendous stuff that happened. And I could no longer remain silent. And as a member [00:11:00] of the Salvation Army, I knew what it would mean. I spoke out and I kept on speaking out. And the more I spoke out, others joined me. Just one thing Before I move on what happened in 1985? A lot of people didn't believe they knew gay men or gay or gay people or any people. They we were invisible. You didn't, you know? But actually they were our workmates. They were our colleagues. They were people into school with. And in 1985 suddenly people were saying, I [00:11:30] will not be quiet anymore. I am going to come out and you discovered that you had gay workmates. You had gay friends and you could see a lot of people struggling with that. Kara. Thank you. for that? Um, a lot of what your has said I can relate to, because I think at one stage, we even went to the same high school. Yeah, that. [00:12:00] So there was that thing of I'd been saying to people since primary school even, um, I like boys. I like girls, so I didn't have a name for it. By the time I was 15, I was contacting lesbian line and finding out what sort of is there and went along to a coffee meeting and met some wonderful women. But they weren't exactly the same as me. And there was also the thing. I didn't really relate to a lot of feminism [00:12:30] and stuff identified as a woman because I didn't feel that was me. I didn't think I was a man, but again, big sort of gaps Where there weren't the names, the labels, the, uh, information. My name is Kay, and I'm a book addict. So I started reading and going online. I remember reading homosexuality by Dennis Altman when I was, um 16 and sort of contacting sort of other people. But in terms of the anything more than saying, I like these people. [00:13:00] Yes, I started telling friends at high school by the time I was 15 or 16 that this is who I'm attracted to, or or like, um, and doing my own thing, going off to book, um, shops and looking at playboys and in second hand bookshops and thinking, Yeah, they look pretty cool. Um, and signing a petition and handing over some money to support homosexual law reform. Asking my cousin, are you gay? And he said no. But yeah, was, um, he left New Zealand [00:13:30] to go to Australia. This is before homosexual law reform because he couldn't feel safe living in New Zealand in case he got picked up or family got to find out. Um, and by the time I was at university, I was joining any of the groups that I could. So when it comes to what names I might have called for myself or the processes, I can now be fully. I had a job interview last week and they asked in the, um is there anything else you want to tell me? Oh, I've been [00:14:00] a co facilitator of the Wellington Bisexual Women's Group for, um, over 25 years. Yeah, and that's now, OK to say in an interview. But it certainly wasn't when I started at work, so But it is that also that thing over the years, it's like you tell something to a person I'm by. Oh, no, that doesn't exist. You're really this or or that, um, And so it's ongoing. Over and over. Yes, I still am. Yeah. 30 plus 40 years later. Yeah, Still here. [00:14:30] Um, I was born in 1943 and I'm 74. So one of the older ones here, I don't like the term elder just getting older. We all are. Um and I was born in London. Um, and I did say to people like through the inside out people, maybe I shouldn't be on this panel because I was wasn't brought up here. I was 25 when I arrived in New Zealand, but they insisted, so that's all right. [00:15:00] Um, I wasn't aware, uh, of, um, being any different from anyone else. Um, when I was young, though, looking back, I can I can see signs. Um, I'm not heavily into the whether we're born or made or choose or anything else. I think it's different for different people, which I think is absolutely fine. And I completely accept that a lot of, um, lesbians, gay men, trans all sorts of people think they were are sure they were born that way. [00:15:30] And that's fine. I'm sure they were if they think that way. But I don't know whether I was born a lesbian. I have no idea. And I don't care. I choose to be a lesbian. I live as a lesbian and have done for very many years. And, uh, I was 23 before I had that realisation, which came with a bump, uh, with another woman who was a New Zealander, which is how I ended up back here. Uh, and we're still good friends. Um, and, uh, [00:16:00] in coming out in in London, I guess I. I was, uh, What would have been called in those days? A sports dyke? Uh, cricket Dyke. As a cricketer, cricket has always been heavily lesbian and probably still is, although it's not as overt, I think, as it used to be, as it's got more professional and so on it probably it always hit it. To some extent, it probably hides it more. Um, there's plenty of other sports that, I mean, attract lesbians as well. Um, and they're all [00:16:30] over the place. That's that's great. Um, so I didn't, uh and I probably wasn't anything like as out as I thought I was. I mean, I adapted quite quickly and was very happy about, uh, being involved with a woman. I didn't get involved in England in a very heavily lesbian scene, apart from my, uh, my friend, who was more experienced than me and my partner at the time saying that one is and that one is and that one might be. And I gradually got my [00:17:00] dark spotting, uh, mechanism more developed myself. But you can be terribly wrong because we are everywhere. We look like everything. And so so does the whole of queer community. And, uh, I think that's great. And it it doesn't matter that much. But there was certainly some safety, particularly We're talking about the mid 6 19 sixties, which is, well, pre stone wall or any anything else public, and it certainly [00:17:30] was not easy. The gateways club some of you may have heard of existed in London, and I did go there a couple of times But we weren't. We weren't in the predominantly lesbian scene. I wasn't out at work. It didn't occur to me whether I didn't even think about whether I was out or not. I was in a relationship, and that was fine. Um, that started to change, particularly came to New Zealand to say in 1969 it's still pretty, very much community activity. Of course, there's loads [00:18:00] of lesbians and gay men around. I'm sure there were also loads of bisexuals and trans and intersex, but they weren't even those terms. And th and thinking that way wasn't very heavily part of it in those days, it was lesbians and gay, mainly as far as community was concerned, uh, to the extent there was community and there was I mean, there were, of course, groups of people. There was mostly too much drinking and bar scenes in those days because there was nowhere or much else to meet, except perhaps in their own homes. [00:18:30] Um, cricket here was as lesbian as in England and cricket, and, uh, we used to go to the pub after after games and sometimes the um, people's homes and so on and and That was the sort of scene in those days, Um, I gradually, as the seventies came on, and, uh, um, second wave feminism and lesbian and gay activity. Both, um, got going [00:19:00] in a much more organised fashion and got more confident and could start developing community. Um, I, uh, was still a sports like, but I was also becoming a lesbian feminist. I was a lefty. I was teaching economics at Vic, and I was pretty. I stood out like a sore thumb there. As I was, I was out to, uh, staff and often to students. There was times when I came out to every class, um, [00:19:30] I got I didn't always do it, but But I often did, and, um and but the process of coming out goes on forever. It's as I'm sure you all know, I mean it. Uh, I had came to New Zealand partly to run away from my mother, who was not at all happy about the fact she wasn't gonna have Jewish grandchildren from me. And in those days, lesbians didn't. Just towards the end of my childbearing years, they might have just started having choosing [00:20:00] to have kids, but it was just a bit late for me. Um, so, uh, I gradually became more and more, um, out. But you go on. I mean, in doing the homosexual law reform bill. And months later in the mid eighties, um, a group of us got special all over the middle pages of the Dominion Post. And, uh, that was, you know, more out to more people than before. And then you start discussing with your squash club people that [00:20:30] you might not have talked too much about it before, and so on. So it's an ongoing process. Thanks, Prue. Um, yes. Coming up for me has been AAA process and a journey, mostly because the reality that I have as an intersex non-binary person, the the images, the languages, the words weren't there at all when I was growing up when I was a teenager, So I grew up in the centre of the North Island. [00:21:00] It was conservative, intensely homophobic. I recently met, um, someone that I went to high school with, and we were talking about that. So there was a group of us who were high school friends, and we used to call ourselves the freaks. Um, simply because we saw ourselves as being different. But certainly we didn't talk about being queer. Um, though it turned out that 90% of that group probably [00:21:30] were So my first coming out was as a queer, identified person, and it was important to me, I I was living in Whanganui at the time, and the group was primarily gay men. Um and then my journey has just continued since then A bit like you, So I didn't come out as an intersex person until 22 years ago, and I came out on Paul Holmes television, [00:22:00] so it was like I had had media training. If you're going to do this, you do it sort of once and quite loud. So that was reasonably effective. And then, you know, I, I want to back to the youth in this room because the non binary language has come from you and that has been profoundly impactful on on my life and journey and watching the development of our community in terms of deepening [00:22:30] who we are has been a magical part of the last 10 years. Good. Hi, everyone. This is really interesting. Like you hear a lot of and that's shared with you and and for me, Um, we've just lost a very important person more, especially in my life, down in and for for her whole journey her last bye bye. Georgina was there to witness it. Um, I learned so much and so much, [00:23:00] um, history. And now, listening to this, I'm learning even more history. So I'm just wondering what's going on with me at the moment. Why I'm getting all of this in terms of, um my coming out story. I don't have one. I never came out. I was never in. You know, people say I came out, girl, I never was in. I grew up in a family. My father is French and my mother is Maori. So we grew up speaking French and Maori. In our family. I have nine sisters [00:23:30] and seven brothers, and we grew up in which is the roughest town in the centre of the North Island. I was always loved and, you know, I would wear my sister's dresses and my mom would say now that shade is not good for you, dear. You know, And then I'd wear my dad's gum boots and I'd put a tea towel on my head because I like the way girls had long hair. So I'd try and get AAA white tail so that it looked blonde and I'd walk [00:24:00] down the back of the farm and I was the child that was sensitive. And when someone hurt, I cried. I was the child that had a natural instinct to sense when there was something, um, happening. So my grandmother took me as a as a very young child away from my brothers and sisters. So I thought that that my sisters are much older. [00:24:30] When my sister would come and visit Nanny, I thought she was nanny's friend. My sisters are very fair. If you look at this girl here with the blonde hair, that is what my sisters look like. Our boys come up very dark with very light coloured eyes and black hair, and our girls will come out white and blonde. So when this white lady would come to nanny's house, I thought she was a friend of nanny's from church. I had no idea that that was actually my sister, and I didn't realise I had nephews and nieces that were older than me [00:25:00] because they were born before me. In fact, the year I was born, my mother's three daughters were pregnant at the same time, so we were all born six weeks apart. So when my sisters went back to work, my mother took the Children. So these four people, I thought, were my brothers and sisters and the other people the ladies, because Mum couldn't handle the Children. These white ladies used to come and pick up my brothers and sisters and take them home. I had no idea that was actually my sister's [00:25:30] picking up my nephews and nieces, so I grew up in a very loving, sheltered, nurturing environment. Um, my mother was very, um, earthy. You know, we had because we had so many Children. We lived on a farm. If you were given the job of tomatoes and there were no tomatoes for the family, you were taken behind the chicken patch and bashed. Or if your chicken died because you didn't look after it, you got bashed not by your parents by your brothers [00:26:00] and sisters. So I learned very much that it was a community. Everything that you did was nothing was your own. Your dresses your shoes. I don't think I had my first pair of shoes till I was 14 because we could just couldn't afford it. And I remember one story when I was in high school. Um, I couldn't fit any of my brother's jumpers, you know, the high school jumpers, the uniform and we couldn't afford to buy one. So Mum took me to a hooker hooker shop, which is an opportunity shop, and I thought it was something like Harrod's because I'd never seen [00:26:30] so many clothes on hangers before and I had $2 and that to me was like $2000. And I was a 13 year old child and I picked this jumper and I was so proud. And I wore it to school on my first day and John Jansen saw the jumper and he goes, Hey, you've got my jumper on. You better fuck up. My mother took me to Harrod's to buy this jumper, and it cost $2. Thank you, he said. No, that's my jumper. My mum knitted it. No, she didn't. You're a liar. [00:27:00] And he said, No, look at the tag tag and I lifted up the tag and it had John Jensen's name sewn in it, and I realised then we were different. I was different. Not only was I di II, I always had acceptance for my family, but going into a a school. Then people are saying, Why do you walk that way? I'm I'm walking. Why do you talk that way? I had no idea, but because I had all this and all this nurture from [00:27:30] my family, those people. I don't care about you people because you're not part of my life. My people were my family and my brothers and my sisters and my history, my people. My. That's what I held fast to So hearing these coming out stories I don't remember ever being in. I don't remember ever being frightened. I understood that I was different and I accepted that, and I never made excuses. I never tried to fit in, You know, you either [00:28:00] like a person or you don't, and that's your That's your privilege. I'm who I am and I present who I choose to when I choose, and when people say, How do you identify yourself? I identify myself as a living being that breathes and loves and cares. However you want to pocket me is up to you. So for me, I like man said, I congratulate our youth because you know, I'm learning so [00:28:30] much like our elders, our grown people. Um I'm learning so much from the from the Children, and it makes gives me hope. And I have grandchildren. I have three grandchildren. Um, and I look at them and I. I teach them that no one can pocket you anywhere. No one. They call me grandma. But I said to them, No one pockets you. Only you can do that to you. And no one can love you as much as you can. Love you. [00:29:00] So in terms of my coming out story, I was never out. I was always in. Thank you. No. So the next question is, would you consider yourself I would describe myself as very, very young. Thank you so very much. When I read your on your email, how would you feel about being an elder? How No. How No. Jesus Lord, you know, as long as Thailand [00:29:30] exists and they have surgery for your eyes and they can take away half your stomach, honey, I will always be young and it makes and you know what? What is age really I? I think at my age that I might know more than this young lady here because she's young. That in our world is not true. This young lady might have read the interweb. Uh, thank you so much. You're so clever. Um, you know, young [00:30:00] people have access to the Internet. I'm only just learning it. So my my history my, my, is mine. And I have no way to judge or gauge how intellectual she is or what her experience is. And we may be different in age, but we may have the exact same knowledge base purely because of our age. When you get to a certain age, you have to squint a little bit. Not that I do it. Mind you, you have to squint a little bit to read [00:30:30] and I. I digest so much information from listening to younger people because I'm learning so much about our history, who we are and where we can go, you know, And where the youth are leading us. And I think it's exciting. So in terms of, um being called an elder no No, thank you. And a sort of tour that I'm an older person in the community, [00:31:00] and we operate in most of our groups on a basis of delegated leadership. So what we're talking about as elders, I think, as leaders. So, um, I see leaders in this room around me. I mean, Tabby's won a young leaders award. I mean, you know, great sort of there, but and then that's not to say, you know, she's not in case he's not, and and Jim's not and you know, because we are. We have got lots of leaders in the room, but also, we team tag a lot when we need somebody [00:31:30] to help us with something like Craig was leading a process and had great support. But everybody, in a way, is a leader. And so whether you're older or younger and we're learning from each other all the time, so yeah, I'm old. I'm counting down to retirement, getting that, um, unconditional sort of, you know, benefit income from the the the government. Sure, but, um yeah, not elder. Yeah, I guess, uh, for me, [00:32:00] it's something that's more been bestowed rather than self identified. Um, I would have been probably in my late forties when I started not noticing a phenomenon, particularly through some of my connections through faith communities, where I was able to have conversations with with, uh, younger folk who were coming in and asking questions. As a result of that, I got very involved in an international organisation, which was the Gay Christian Network. And, um, as I started [00:32:30] travelling a lot to that, I found a lot of the younger a lot of the young folk and we, you know, 18 through to 30 would be gravitating. And it was a bit like, you know, sitting around your story, tell us your story, and I used to find it intriguing because they had bestowed that, um, responsibility and role on me. But not only that, there was a great deal of respect that came with that. So to honour the respect, I [00:33:00] was happy to say Yes, I'll embrace that which has been given. But not only do I see myself an elder in that responsive in that in that respect, I've mentioned that I have my background of Salvation Army. What I've also found is that within the church who were very homophobic who were very close to being responsive to what our stories were about, are now also starting to say, Tell us more of your story, help us understand, help [00:33:30] us learn. And I again take that role. And if I'm given that opportunity and send as an elder to do that, then so be it. Because if, as I uh, dialogue with folk and as I share and as we listen and as we you know, we go through the pains and the joys if in the process they can look and say because of this conversation because of this person, I am grateful that I'm no longer [00:34:00] needing to be afraid. I'm grateful that I no longer need to be worried about who I am. And that is happening not only in the LGBT community. It's happening in our supportive community and our advocates. It's happening in our schools. It's happening in our churches. So for me you can call me what you like. But I will be If you want to say, you know Papa, Daddy or whatever it is, Um, yeah, so be it. Who would like it next? Well, [00:34:30] as I said, I don't like the term elder. I don't know what it connotates, but it doesn't connotate anything positive to me. Um, I don't mind the fact that I'm distinctly older than I used to be. And people want to call me an old lesbian. That's OK. Um, I, uh but in terms of, um, the difference it makes by being older, uh, it's not as huge as all that if you're lucky enough to have good health. And I mean, health is a crucial [00:35:00] thing both for older people and for others. I mean, there are people who have, uh, disabling conditions or who, uh, have really serious illnesses very young. And, um, often it's It's that that that is distinguishing if you're lucky enough to be reasonably in reasonable health, which I am lucky enough to be, Um then things aren't too bad. You can go on doing things, but you have a bit less energy. Um, I've noticed that, um, my age group, uh, tend to have lunch [00:35:30] parties or early evening parties. We don't have parties that start at eight o'clock and go up till midnight. I don't come to your or your dances that in the that start at nine or 10 at night. That just doesn't work for me anymore. And those sorts of things change as you get older. Uh, do not for everybody. Some people may have the energy to go on being up at four. In the morning when they're 90. But I don't, Um, so there are There are things that that [00:36:00] do change. Um, but, uh, I think, um, you're as old as you feel as far as, um, What you know as being if you're thinking of elder more in terms of being respected for having knowledge as people have talked about, Well, um, I have some things about which I know a lot, and if I get asked to talk about them and so on to to different groups, then that's absolutely fine. But, um, um, I tend personally to have the regret that I don't have as much as I would like to to do with really [00:36:30] much younger age groups. You tend to have your main friendship networks amongst people you've known a while who are a lot of them is your own age. Or maybe within 10 or 15 years at least I don't have much to do with people in their tens and twenties, Um, and and thirties, uh, because I didn't have Children. And a lot of my lesbian friends do have Children, and I like to have as much contact as I can with the next generation and the one after, Um, but, uh, you have to make an effort [00:37:00] to do so if you haven't had your own offspring. And that's one important thing. And it's really nice to have things to do with with groups such as this at a very mixed age, Um, I happily accept the term Rainbow Elder. Um, I take it as a mark of an endearment and as a mark of respect for however many years 1 may have spent longer than you and experiencing. I believe we have wisdom to, um, [00:37:30] to impart from our experience. And I would expect that most of us on this panel, if not all of us, are very open to your questioning, which I think is more important than asking, um, a few sort of, uh, set up questions to go on with. That's gonna be the interesting part of this forum. Um, I'll accept the Rainbow Elder thing as long as it has no connotation towards the church of the Latter day Saints or any other religious outfit that has elders in their congregation. [00:38:00] I'm also comfortable with the term elder. Um, I've spent a lot of time in Maori community so and understand that and the responsibilities that go with the title and and the intersex community as I look around, um, there are not very many people around the world who are activists at the front line. Um, and it's a hard place [00:38:30] to be, So we have terrible burnout. And the other thing is, I look around each year, we seem to lose disproportionately more people than the base population. So, um, there's not a lot of us that are making old bones. And so that's another thing to think about as well. But it's a privilege to be here and again. Thank you for the invitation. Um, yeah, I guess. Just, um, with this next question. [00:39:00] Um, yeah, it's just we just kind of want you to maybe, um, talk more about a specific campaign that you've been involved in, Um, and how you feel that campaign sort of changed the landscape. Um, culturally for rainbow people, whether it be homosexual law reform or anything of that kind of elk that you want to talk about. Yeah. Question six. Yeah, sure. Sorry. Cool. [00:39:30] My involvement with homosexual law reform was relatively superficial. I was in my twenties. I was living in Auckland. Um, I moved up there from Wellington in 1984 and I was working at Alfie's nightclub, a gay nightclub, Very well known nightclub in Auckland at that time in a drag show. Um, but the owners of our club owned a magazine called Out magazine, which was one I think I may be corrected of about only two. At the time that had a national [00:40:00] coverage. There was Pink triangle, and there was out magazine. So that was one of the few journalistic avenues by which we could get the message of, uh, a protest et cetera and support, obviously for homosexual law reform as it was coming along. So that was sort of an important element. In 1985 I got to make a short film called Jules Dahl with a gay filmmaker called Peter Wells. It was about a story on the day of the life of a transsexual and a transvestite [00:40:30] and, um, very simple. No sex, no, nothing controversial. But it did get banned from going on television when the series we were part of was about to screen. Uh, because the censor of the day decided that the subject matter of Jules Dahl was contrary to the public's good taste. We got a new director of television, I think came and then Julian Mounter, and he sort of dismissed that ruling on that so they could get this whole series of about face on to screen. It would have been one of the first films regarding [00:41:00] our particular transgender issues told in a dramatic story, Yes, but a more realistic reflection of our lives, um, through this particular couple and, um, then being the caricature or the Danny LA or the tiny Tina, uh, sort of mocking of transgender in a way. And I don't want to disparage the entertainment value of some of some of that that went down. But Jules Dale was a little bit pioneering [00:41:30] for our stories to be told. Um, he helpfully, in fact, I was in Auckland last week and Lexie Matheson looked at me and cited the fact that she saw Jules Dahl in 1986 or whenever it aired on TV. It was a profound life changing experience for her to be who she is today. So that was a huge compliment. And and an example, Uh, at the end of that film. And during that film, um, we were right in the venal argument [00:42:00] of homosexual law reform. And while we were shooting a scene one night in Queen Street, Wellington, it was a sun, uh, Auckland. Rather, Um, it was a, um, Sunday night, and every Sunday night, the Salvation Army, um, marched down Queen Street to have a prayer meeting in Victoria Street off Queen Street. And as an absolute, um, Improvisation, if I could put it that way, um, Peter, the director would finish filming what we had to suddenly said, Look, we're just going [00:42:30] to get this. We don't know if it'll be film worthy or whatever, uh, to be in the final cut. But would you and my co star, um, Richard Hanna, who was playing the role of Mandy I was Jewel, um, we were asked to just as the Salvation Army came down with the tambourines going and the trumpets and the singing and all of that coming down Queen Street Would we just run out in front of them and sort of mockingly march in front of them? Uh, which we happily didn't thought. It was a bit of fun and all of that. [00:43:00] And then they wheeled around into Victoria Street to, uh, um establish themselves for their prayer meeting. And Peter said, Look, could you just do one more thing and go and rush up and stand beside them? Uh, sort of again in a slightly mockingly way, uh, which we did. We got it all on film, and it did end up in the film. And, um and that was sort of, uh, you know, on cellu Lloyd to recall that this contribution that the film crew of Jules Dale could make to, you know, pro homosexual [00:43:30] law reform we will do. And to also, um, take a swipe at the Salvation Army, who, as has been mentioned, was venal against the whole thing. Um, you know, at the time. And so, um, the final line that I had, uh, uh, in the final shot of the film and we were just again told to improvise this conversation because we were walking away from the camera. Um, Richard and I and I just dreamed up this line out of the top of my head, chatting away to Mandy. Character going. Do [00:44:00] you remember this guy called Norm Jones? Well, I ran into him one night down on Vivian Street. And and Norm Jones, for those of you who may not be aware, was a national party MP who to me coined the most the most venal, um, public display of outrage at the gay community by announcing on stage at the Auckland Town Hall to a huge pro gay rally that was happening in there that night. Get back to the gutters from where you came. And that was the [00:44:30] kind of attitude. And who won? I'm so glad Georgina, uh mentioned that story because I certainly remember the movie. I remember that scene, and I also was very much aware of the cognitive dissonance that came, particularly with where the Salvation Army stood. You see, a lot of my friends in the Salvation Army did not [00:45:00] necessarily want to align themselves with any form of negative thinking, but we had three people at the top who took it upon themselves to make a national statement. Now I had to drive. I'd been overseas, came back to Wellington, and it would have been about 1982. And I had I. I sort of had two persona, you know, go to church on Sunday. Go to the victor. Um, some of you may remember we used to have a club around the, um, Oriental Bay called. Do you remember the Victoria [00:45:30] Club? Some of you may Well, well, the Victoria Club was a place where you could meet and you couldn't get a licence to have a gay club. So what they did they They purchased a restaurant, which was a level below, and it had, um it had an attached bar upstairs, and the all drinks would be served to the paying customers in the restaurant, which left the upstairs bar, which was covered by the restaurant for people to be able to meet and enjoy. [00:46:00] And I got, uh, met people from the Victoria Club, and they were affable people. I like their company. Um and so this was a way we worked around being able to get a licence to run a gay club. And so I had this dual persona. Um, I do remember writing to every MP. And, you know, those were the days where you just about had to go through and photocopy. There was no, um, writing and telling them this was this was wrong. Um, I made some interesting connections. Some of you [00:46:30] may remember the name, uh, Phil Parkinson. Now, I remember on one particular Friday morning, it was in March 1985. Phil rang me at work and he said, Colin, I need to ask you a question. There is a rumour that is going around that the Salvation Army is just about to put out a statement that they're going to do this. And I thought to myself, they're not that stupid. They wouldn't do it, you know, they're not. You know, we we are more mature than that. They wouldn't do it. So I rang the head of, [00:47:00] um, our our human relations, the chap with the name of Rodney Knight now and told them Look, there's a rumour you need to know this so that you know, when it comes out, you you're already really prepared to be able to uh, dispel it. And I received a very cold. Um, it was just as if to say, I've pushed some buttons here. So I said to Rodney, Tell me, is this true? And the response was the [00:47:30] Salvation Army is doing what the Salvation Army has to do. And I said, You know what? You have just made the biggest stuff up in life. This will come back and haunt us for years and years to come. That was 1985. I had no idea how prophetic that would be. But what was interesting was, as and as history has now proven, is that yeah, there were only two or three people at the top and they banded together and had a bit of power. [00:48:00] They didn't talk to London. The advice that came from the International Salvation Army in London was we wouldn't have done that. That's not how that's not the image we want. So you know, it's something that has taken has taken time. What I did do, though. And, you know, we're talking a bit about the communities. What I found I have done. I had two options. Basically turn around and say, Look, stuff you church stuff, you faith stuff, All this stuff, you know, you're not nice to know. And I sort of sense, you know, if change is gonna come, change is [00:48:30] gonna come from a growth of people inside who, you know, if we share our stories as we as we let people see the real us and, uh, it was hard, but I chose that path rather than the other. And I look back over the last 30 years, and I'm grateful because I still hold on to a very strong faith. I hold on to a faith that has actually allowed me to share stories. I'm involved very much in online ministries. Now, I do a lot of we, um, started [00:49:00] a small group of people online. So salvation is for a more inclusive church. We now have over, uh, about 2200 people in our community, and they're sharing sources and stories, and it spread internationally the same with the, um, Christian Fellowship Group, which I just started for me as a group, you know, to be a part of and to actually watch it grow. And what watch stories? One of the Yeah. Yeah, Before you hand on Just a brief thing. Um, I wanted [00:49:30] to say homosexual law reform was fought under a climate when HIV and AIDS had just hit the world. And that was a hugely and potentially damaging thing to have happened at that time. You have no idea what it was like to be gay or anything at that time when HIV came out. And all the misrepresentation, the misunderstanding, the not actually knowing exactly what IV and AIDS was about at that time worldwide. And so for Fran to lead [00:50:00] homosexual law reform under that climate was very difficult. It was very easy for the naysayers to supporting homosexual law reform, Um, to now be confronted with this at that time and completely discredited what was termed a gay disease. I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit more about your involvement and like where the kind of trans community was during, um, the time of homosexual law reform. Well, the trans community [00:50:30] in a more sort of distinct term of male to female or female to male, uh, were present at that time. We weren't necessarily hugely high profile activists, but we attended the protests we were there to support, I think in that way. And, um, we have to remember that the gay community itself was coming to terms with the new coalescing that was mentioned before between each other lesbians, gay men or whatever than [00:51:00] we had been before. The trans community, I have to say, were scary to some, even within our own rainbow community was very easy for a trans. Let's say Carmen, to be out or whatever like that, and you could spring someone who was gay who was not wanting to be quite that out. Those kinds of situations would occur. Um, I use the term. It's a bit traumatic, but we were a scum of the Earth in many ways, the trans community. And yet we couldn't hide ourselves because we dressed and [00:51:30] behaved as we felt and it was blatantly obvious, and that would engender some very negative stuff towards us. Uh, but we were there. We were supportive because of the principle that we put aside. Our particular difference is we have a common goal in mind that we we must aim for, and it's going to be a stepping stone towards the human rights amendments in 93 etcetera. Two civil unions to marriage. Equality. It's a marathon. It's not a a sprint, [00:52:00] that's for sure. Thank you. Question. Oh, cool. Thanks. Um, who would you consider to be your elders? Um, I really like hearing, um that you feel it's something that's bestowed upon you. So I'm interested to know who you would bestow that on, um, from your own time. Especially talking about how visibility and the ability to make records is something that's quite recent. Things [00:52:30] like magazines, radio, film, Internet and so on is something that's grown throughout your lifetime. But what about people that you knew when you were in your twenties or in your teens who were, um born and died before being able to have even half the openness that we have because we don't have their records? But you do because you remember them? Um, that's not a specific question, but I'm really interested to know just from anyone. If you have a well, I know absolutely who I want to talk [00:53:00] about. Please do. I am as a youngster, I didn't know what transgender was until I saw Reina Buyer um and I saw the integrity the decency that she represented her honesty to me was incredible. And I. I remember distinctly having conversations with my grandmother, Um, the fact that she was Maori and that she wasn't afraid to talk about her Maori [00:53:30] to she wasn't afraid to to be who she was. So, for me, not only did Regina, I look upon her as an elder, but I also look upon her as, uh, uh, a leader in terms of our commit a community. She was never afraid to speak her truth and to challenge people and their beliefs. And I think as a young person, that's what we all need, someone who's going to challenge the general populace, [00:54:00] not not in an offensive way, because she was never offensive. She was honest, not in a confronting way. She was honest. And I think when you're looking at a leader as, um, someone that's going to guide you, you need somebody that has a sense of honesty and integrity, to their Selves, to themselves, but also an appreciation of their truth and where they sit in their community and to me. Georgina Baer has always had that [00:54:30] she's always had that simplicity and that elegance that, um, I aspire to hence wearing her hair do today. Thank you, Kara. Um I. I want to mention a few people, not just because of who they were as individuals and still are, but because of what they did. So Pink Triangle was the other magazine that came out and I was on the collective for woman and nine men. Um, and so Stephen Danby, who was the at the time [00:55:00] always trying to get the stories and trying to sort of get things. And so it was putting the the word out there, the women who ran lesbian line and through whom I sort of had had contact. And I don't always know their names because that wasn't how it was set up. Um, Tim Barnett, who did a lot of behind the scene, work for for legal representations, and he's still part of New Zealand. And he was an MP. And again, yes, he was out and gay and had been involved in the UK and setting up stonewall. But part of his thing was to bring other [00:55:30] people together into the space and in our local community. Um, Mal Vaughn and Scottie, who have run so many pubs and open spaces that and provided financial support and and charity to enable events to happen in our community. So there's those people who have supported things in an open way. They're there and, you know, I totally I them, I guess there was very few people I would identify. But I remember people like the Reverend Troy Perry [00:56:00] from the United States, who in 1970 set up the Metropolitan Community Church because they were not ministering to the, uh, you know, the spiritual needs of people and basically made made it known You are welcome at our church. We will love you. We will demonstrate what it means to be, and and I use the Christian terms here, you know, the follow of Christ and that church took off, And I, as a person right around the other part of [00:56:30] the world, was starting to listen and say, you know, you can actually have faith and to be, um, same sex When I came, um, during 1985 1 of the things that was a real struggle was that as a gay man, a lot of my gay friends did not want to know me because I was a member of the Salvation Army. But in the same way a lot of my Salvation Army friends didn't want to know me because I was a gay man and there was a very narrow road [00:57:00] that you could stare down. But there were people, and I look also, I think of some names and one name that just comes to mind. Um, I'm sure will remember. Do you remember Case Coo? Yes. Yes. Well, I mentioned Case case was someone, of course, I met through the Victoria Club. Um, we celebrated his life on Friday. Um, Judith Thus, another person I think of, I think of people like Owen Shanks, [00:57:30] who for many years lived, um, as a man, you know, with, um with HIV, but just was such a strong person and very much out, you know, just giving the message. You don't have to be frightened of us. You've got you know, we are. We are here. And what was also particularly noticeable was while we while we as a community and particularly gay men and, um, the LGBT community can be can be quite determined [00:58:00] in their views. And they can be. You know, um, the people that I have find I look up to are those who demonstrated Grace who allowed space for, You know, we may have different views, but we're in this together. Let us work towards a common goal. And while we're doing it, if we can find the common language, if we can find a way in which we can love each other and respect each other, then that's even a good thing. [00:58:30] Um, for the first time in our history, um, we have actually got a very visible, um, ageing, uh, queer population. Um, So my question is, is, uh what challenges have you faced in recent years? Um, as you've gotten older. And what can us younger ones do to support you? Um, given that so much of your lives was actually given up fighting for the freedoms we have today. So what can we [00:59:00] do? Well, I'll tell you one of the things and it breaks my heart. I've seen this time and time again. I saw this again in mid January where we farewelled Fergus Collinson. Now Fergus was a man. If you knew him, he was a very visible person. Great artist. But very if you met him in the street, you knew you weren't going to get away without a a hug. And you know something? Really? Quite. You know, but Fergus passed away in his apartment, and it [00:59:30] was four days before they found his body. Now, I had this real fear of getting old, and then people aren't even there to know that you've gone. Um, So what can we do? I guess Well, part of it is just building communities, looking after those who, you know, you know, your friends staying in touch. I'm trying to make an effort. Now, I've got a few older friends, and I've said to them, You know, give me a ring every you know, [01:00:00] you know, every couple of days just to you know, even if you've got nothing to say except hello. I miss you. I want to talk with you. Um, we also think about how how do we look at as we age? Um, going use being able to access, um, residential care? Um, I was talking to a couple yesterday at out in the park, and I hadn't seen them for some time. And I said where are you living? Because every time I knew them, they were selling the house they said we are now living in. Um, [01:00:30] now which Scott, Um, home in Baton. Is it Ron Scott or Tom Scott? That anyway, there's a residential home. Bob Scott. We're living in the Bob Scott home in and we love it. We've got our own apartment. We we can have our flowers and we're the first openly gay couple there, and people love us. So So I guess you know, there's still opportunity. Just a little one, as I've got older and [01:01:00] it'll happen to most of you, too. My hearing's got worse. So I live with tinnitus and the background noise becomes sort of, um, a bit intrusive. And it's sometimes hard to see people if they turn away. And I can't see the face while they're talking with me. It's also meant that I've become more aware of other people who are disabled or who have impairment and challenges to get to things. So my friends who are in wheelchairs wouldn't be able to get over the lip to get into this place necessarily. So when I'm running an event, [01:01:30] I try and think about accessibility issues to try and think. Are there people who I'd like to invite, who would really sort of add something? And can I make sure that the venue and everything about it is going to make it easy enough for them to get there? Is it the right time of day? What's the public transport like? You know, when I had my car accident last year and the car was written off, I was using public transport. And if I couldn't get to something in a place but caught by that way, I wouldn't go. And so it's that thing of like as, um, you know, hearing [01:02:00] people still want to be part of communities and have the options. But it may just be that little bit of wrap around thinking one in four people in New Zealand is living with a disability. Within 30 years, it's gonna be one in three, so that's just something. And it's not just older people, but there are younger people living with these issues. But, you know, trying to find, you know, thinking about how to include us would be good. In some ways, I don't think it's any different for us than it is for anybody else who's ageing. Um, there are ageing issues [01:02:30] for everyone, and some will have, um, support networks that are stronger than others. Some will have have Children and so on. Um, but you can't live through them either. You've, uh, some will have communities and and local, um, people. I think it is very important that that you do have a community. And I think as you if you lose, um, the ability to, uh, to walk to the shops and so on things become really [01:03:00] serious. And our health system is not particularly good at supporting. It's it's not bad, but it's not that good. Certainly the business of, uh if you need to go into a retirement village or then into residential care and so on. It's really important to, um, attack the homophobia to To there there is increasing, um, sensitivity. In some cases, we've got resources. We've developed resources ourselves, um, to, uh, make [01:03:30] sure that, um next of kin is use that that if you you have a partner, you can demonstrate your love for each other just the same as any heterosexual couple. Good. But you're gonna have encounter the old homophobic staff member anywhere. And, uh, all that needs needs tackling. But certainly, I mean, my age group start talking to each other a lot about these issues. I mean, I don't have a single blood relation in New Zealand. I don't have Children. I'm very my partner Dropped dead three years ago after we [01:04:00] did 20 years together. Um, it's something, uh, that I do have to think about these days. I'm because I'm healthy. But I do try and keep in contact with friends and so on. Um and, um, I think you know the business of having mixed age. Um, uh, contacts is important too, for everyone. I've I've been reading the other day about, um uh, rest home. Nothing to do with lesbian gay community. [01:04:30] But where, um, young people go in and make friends with some of the people living there. All those sorts of things, the things we can we can do, and and it's good both for the older people and for the younger people. Uh, pets are good. My dog's damn important to me, but you know, all these things are things we need to think about. lovely question. Lots and lots of issues. Um, a few years ago, I I did a video with, um Julie Watson [01:05:00] up in Auckland. He's part of the Silver Rainbow Project, and at at the moment, I can earn money, so I'm OK, but I'm part of the community that has no resource. So the idea of growing old and then being incapacitated terrifies me because our elder community is binary and there is no place at the moment for someone like me. So, yeah, there's a big piece of work to do there. It's a beautiful question. And thank [01:05:30] you for asking it in most recent years for me. Um, I I've had renal failure and sort of been hugely hit by that health issue for the last four or five years until I got my kidney transplant and the kidney I received from a gay man, I might add, and, um, happily, I'm proudly so it just happened like that. Hugely generous. How do you say thank you for something as amazing as that? So that [01:06:00] is a health challenge. And that was the first time I'd really been knocked by and I couldn't control. It just happened and we had to deal and how I've come out the other side dodged a bullet there, going along the lines of some of the words that have been said already, we have a future, Um, uh, before us where I think we are probably underserved. Certainly underfunded and resourced to actually take care of our of our very elderly who are now going into, uh, perhaps hospice situations. Um, uh, rest home situations [01:06:30] and that kind of thing to my knowledge. And I may stand to be corrected. There is no particularly dedicated facility. Um, that can treat us with the dignity. I'll give you the example of one of my icons if we were talking about that before and again. I'm sorry. I have to mention it. But, madam Carmen, um, when she died in Sydney. Sorry. I'm, um Well, she had [01:07:00] huge support from those who were close to her over there at the time. The hospital facility didn't didn't treat her with the dignity. She deserved that. We couldn't bring her back here to New Zealand, which really was her home. She lies lonely in a cemetery somewhere out of Sydney. And we can't go to her unless we happen to be there. It's those kinds of things that matter [01:07:30] is marking such a figure as her. Like that, she, um, provided safety. She provided friendliness. Her hugely high profile in this country broke down attitudinal barriers and, um, her girls who were for her, even Cal and herself when they got hauled up in front of court to things little law changes that occurred because of some of those appearances [01:08:00] with the small stepping that lead us to more equality, respect and recognition for our particular special place in our society. I think of international people like Christine Jorgenson, who had to suffer the ire as a one of the regarded as the first sexually reassigned transgender woman in the world back in the 19 fifties. Can you imagine the She was that day's [01:08:30] Caitlyn Jenner, if I can put it that way. Um, Jan Morris, a renowned internationally acclaimed author who, when she was still male, climbed Everest with Hillary to report on that people like this who who have done a April Ashley, a famous Vogue model, um, the visibility mentioned before, starts with people like that who step out from the crowd make themselves vulnerable to that out there [01:09:00] for the sake that we begin that we can have something as we grow on, uh, be proud of, I think for you, the younger generation today think of how we care for each other. We may dispute with each other often over particular things. But at the end of the day, collectively, we got to look after each other. Um, at the end of the day, it's vital And continue to remember, as the AIDS quilt shows us, um, to celebrate the shoulders, who we all stand [01:09:30] upon who made us able to get this far, and we've got further to go. Sorry about that. That was one of the things that hurt the most. I could not go to my beloveds funeral. Who would out both of us. Any other questions? Yeah, I had a bunch [01:10:00] of questions, but now I can barely hold it together. So thanks to um, no, it was so moving to hear you speak. I wanted to say because I grew up in the I kind of wanted to. This is more comment to you. Um, you Your name in my household was treated with such respect and with such love. And I think that you had such a profound impact on the community and how they responded to L GP T sort of issues. But I wanted to, um he you reflect a little bit on what it was like when you're going into politics [01:10:30] and you were sort of embracing your You've embraced your identity and like what thoughts you had about going into politics. Or do you have any major reservations? Or were you always just all in? Thank you for that question. Um, politics had never been on my radar ever. I Like I said, I may have participated in the odd protest, but didn't we all back in Vietnam War days and and and certainly for, uh, a law reform and any other [01:11:00] sort of human rights? I think my leftist leanings, um, manifested themselves before I even understood what left and right. And politics even meant it was just the way I I sort of went the first of all. I had never thought that I would find myself living in the wire wrapper, but through various circumstances there I was in 1990 had a job at the, uh uh Well, I went on a government funded training scheme, actually for, uh, um, the tops programme at the Carterton Community Centre. And [01:11:30] with my involvement in that arena of community work and things like that, I became more aware than I ever had been before as an individual of, uh, community issues beyond my own queer issues, if you know what I mean. Always having to prove myself. Yes, you can be best actress nominee. Yes, you can. You get on TV. But is it enough? You know, doing dramas which I have to say were important in their own little right that they progressed our social history a bit more than that. And I was fortunate enough to be one among a few, um, who [01:12:00] were able to have that opportunity. Um, at that time, it wasn't normal. Politics essentially started because of Ruth Richardson's mother of all budgets, which essentially took about 25% of the then benefit rate across the board, Um, throughout the whole nation. And if you didn't think that there was going to be some kind of social consequence, certainly. Um, after that, well, there was, and in a place like Carterton. Um, at that time, we had homelessness in [01:12:30] Carterton. I mean, excuse me. People were sleeping in the fort down at the local park. They were sneaking around people's backyards. So community members, especially elderly, were getting a bit concerned about all of this going on. And I think we had one or two police who worked in carterton at that time to try and cover those sorts of things as a community centre. We took on board this temporary homeless situation, got people sorted with their benefits, et cetera, to be getting exactly what they are entitled to much of like, what happens a lot these days. [01:13:00] And, uh, we approached the local council because we had been donated a caravan, a decent one, which we could use as very temporary housing that was sheltered and warm and et cetera. And we went to the council to ask them if they would provide us the community centre, which ran on the smell of an oily rag, Um, for a powered caravan site at the local um, council owned Caravan Park. And they turned us down flat. And the excuse was, Oh, those are social issues. [01:13:30] Uh, we don't deal with that stuff here. Um, that's a central government matter. So Buck passing was stuff for a powered caravan site for a very temporary period of time so that we could put a person in there that was safer and better than sleeping on the park bench. You know all of that? Well, we got racked up about it. The 92 local body elections came along, and somebody in the centre suggested that I should run for the council. And, um, I said, what the hell did I do? Actually, you know, um, no one gave me the handbook on how this all works [01:14:00] or whatever. So, um, jokingly, But to use it as a platform in the campaign to highlight our social issues in that particular town and district, that's what we were going to use it for. I ran on a ticket with a retired vicar, the Reverend William Woodley Hartley, who was about 80 something at the time. But he was strongly supportive of some of the stuff that we were doing. And so there were lots of, you know, actress and the bishop jokes going on about him and me running on that ticket failed in that very first, um, election [01:14:30] attempt. And, um, I was the highest polling, unsuccessful candidate. And I thought I had done darn well for a trainee that turned up in town a year or two beforehand and now wants to sit on the holy cow of the council. Are you kidding me? But I'd missed out by 14 votes and thought damn good result for a first time outing, given all my history, which was completely out there. My life has always been an open book. I haven't hidden anything. If you expect people in, uh, to vote you into public office, [01:15:00] they need to know exactly who it is they are considering to vote for. I wish a few more politicians would do that. Um, but anyhow, um, that was that I was terrified. When I got elected in 1993 in a by-election, I walked into a council chamber knowing that a majority if not all of them were found my transgenderism to be abhorrent. And, um, what the hell is it doing sitting at this council table? The only woman on the council at the time, Dorothy Booth was [01:15:30] just happy a skirt walked into the room. Um, she because she'd been totally dominated by the most majority male members around that council. My credibility wasn't taken seriously at all. I was sidelined and not involved in more crucial council things. And remember, no one handed me the the the book. I had to be resourceful enough to find out about what it is we do here. Resource Management Act had come into effect. Part of the Resource Management Act requirements [01:16:00] for a council at that time was to set up a consultative procedure with local iwi. I was the first Maori to be elected to the District Council. Guess who they all turn to to run away and get draught policy together on all of that. Me, I'm about as steeped in Maori as, um the extent of my I say that a bit to and I'm a bit more informed and and and, uh, about that now, but really, I was a Maori [01:16:30] if I can put it like that and, um and so I really shouldn't have been taking on this really important policy that we were trying to draught. But I did because I saw it as an opportunity one to prove myself to learn. Um, you know how to go through this process? Long story, short cut to today, except for a few amendments to move with the times. Um, that consultative procedure with in the district still exists today. So, um, you know, we did something right. Establish credibility. [01:17:00] Parliament. Oh, sorry. Mayoralty next, when it was suggested that I should run for the mayoralty because I was just grateful that I was on the council. Now the mayor, you got to be kidding. This is rural redneck New Zealand. You could well understand running for the mayoralty. And, um, of course, history will note that I won that mayoral election in 95 and then these world first things being thrown at me, I've modified the and I'm proud [01:17:30] of them. New Zealand should be proud of them. They're certainly not as proud of being the first tranny to be, you know, serving on those sorts of things as they are, say, of, um, women getting the vote, for example, which I you know, I think it's pretty equal kind of thing the first time. This country, you know, does these kinds of things which become world leading and highly respected. Um, Parliament. I was not. I thought I was fine being the mayor of I loved the job. It was community, you know, It just fitted everything that I'd [01:18:00] done beforehand had nothing actually to do with being transgender. And that's the people of the end of they knew my story. You'd think they'd just turf me out like that. Not at all. They'll spot a fake at 50 paces, I tell you. And if they thought for a moment you were being insincere, not genuine at all telling lies, um, obfuscating or whatever like that they'll soon to you They'll like that. They're straight up people and whatever particular way they want to sort of fit [01:18:30] you into into it. Sonny Davies says it best in the Georgia Girl documentary about me when an old national party stalwart farmer up in the Danny area, um turned around when he was questioned about whether or not um who he was considering to vote into power, um, into the local seat. And the two major choices were myself and Paul, Henry and um and he turned around and he said, I voted national all my life. But I think [01:19:00] I might vote for that Georgina buyer because she's a damn good chap, So OK, I, I could be offended by that. But I wasn't. I thought, Well, whatever way you can put that to rights in your own head. As long as I've got your vote, baby, that's all I care about. And I did. And will you infect the rest of your national party friends up at that end of it? Um, you know, with all of that. And perhaps he did. And in fact, for a labour person to win that seat, you have to win over National party vote. Um, [01:19:30] Parliament boy. Oh, boy. Um, it was a, um it was odd. I mean, at least I had the background of local government to assist me with now what kind of political environment I was in. Um, I won a general seat unusual for a Maori to do. I was one of only two Maori in the parliament at the time that held a general seat myself and Winston Peters. And, um, that's changed, of course, since, [01:20:00] um and and rightfully so, um, the learning curve is huge. Just to understand how that facility works, Um, the immense amount of resource at your fingertips that it took me a year or more to really fully understand. Um, and all of that. And then Tim, of course, was Bob. Tim Barnett was bubbling along with a couple of issues. And the first one up was, uh, prostitution reform coming up for its first reading in our first term and same with civil [01:20:30] unions. And I, of course, got drawn into those. And so, while I was achieving things for my electorate, this huge demand because of my profile as a trans person member of the rainbow community, the pressure from the gay community to also be out of everything for them and so on and so forth. And I had to make some unpleasant decisions sometimes on just where I was going to put my time and resources. And it wasn't always for the gay community, because [01:21:00] I had to ask myself, Who's put me here? The people of the They must be my first priority. Then the party, of course, is quite demanding on your attention and things like that. And then I could work on rainbow issues, which I did, and belonged to the Rainbow Sector, et cetera. And there were only me, Tim Barnett and Chris Carter who were out and gay in Parliament at the time. And so to achieve what? II. I credit Tim with driving, um, Civil Union, certainly from the parliamentary. And I know [01:21:30] it took a huge network from out of Parliament to help that happen. Uh, against the odds we were facing, I thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated the ups and downs, the horrors, the whatever of that campaign and hardened me up as far as politics was concerned. A scary place for a transgender person. You're the only one in the world. Everyone has a demand out there for you. I happily say that not long after Vladimir Luxa got elected into the Italian Parliament. [01:22:00] So from New Zealand, and with me, this sort of, um, cascade of other people who had always wanted to be in that kind of political arena could do it because me and New Zealand and the rapper broke the mould and pushed it forward, and people could say, Well, we can move forward, and it has in some jurisdictions and in other areas, and that's a positive thing I I'll stop now because everyone will be getting, um, a bit bored with all this. If you really want to read [01:22:30] some of it, you can read up to my life till 1998 in a book called A Change for the Better, which is in the library here in Wellington. I haven't even got a copy of Oh, really, Really? At the Wellington City Council with Kerry Prendergast here and everything. Oh, fantastic. Um, I give great credit to the people of the for showing other rural conservative areas of New Zealand. Don't be afraid of people like us. She's done good by us, and I can't see why. Anybody else that wants to follow on her shoes [01:23:00] can't do the same. So, um, we might just yeah, wrap up the the, um, question segment. Um, just with one more question. Um, so, yeah, we kind of just wanted, um, you guys to share any sort of humorous experience you've had, Um, as you know, being part of the rainbow community [01:23:30] or your interactions with others outside of the rainbow community. Um, Georgina, about the Salvation Army was obviously a good one, but yeah, anything sort of of that nature that you want to share as a memory. Um, let me start. Uh, II. I look back on this and sort of sort of crack up. OK, As I've been quite clear, I've put my colours out there. I'm very much involved in the Salvation Army. Now, my heritage is also playing in the Salvation Army Band, [01:24:00] the very band that Georgina was able to go and join in Auckland. Now it's an interesting group to play with. Uh, yes, you could call them homophobic, but they don't actually want to be seen as being excluding people. So they sort of have these little games. They play, you know? Oh, yes, we love you. You're welcome. And they'll never tell you to go away because that's not what Christians do. But what they'll say is, you know, and so I I sort [01:24:30] of dealt with this for some years. Well, one of the things my Salvation Army band that I'm involved in here in Wellington, it's actually the premier band. We do a lot of, um, in ministry and international travel. And in 2007, we had been invited, um, to return to Japan for a ministry tour, and that meant concerts and, you know, church staff and outdoors. And it was the third time. It was the first time I went with them, and I thought, I don't know if [01:25:00] I want to travel for 10 days with all these guys. And I don't think there were any women in the group. Pretty homophobic group. But look, I'll do it. I mean, they knew they knew I was gay, but you just didn't rub their nose in it. On one evening the Japanese hosts came to us and they worked us pretty hard. And they said to us, We have a special treat for you tonight we're going to give you a night off, and tonight we are going to have give. You have a chance to have an on. Now, if you know Japanese [01:25:30] culture and onsen is the environment where you know you go in and you yourself, you get naked, you scrub yourself down and host yourself off and then jump in a very hot tub. And it's all done as God created us. And I'm thinking to myself, Well, they know I'm gay. I've been invited, but probably not a good idea to go. Probably so I said to them, Hey, guys, look, it's OK. You go and enjoy yourself. Um, I'll [01:26:00] see you in the morning, I. I was thinking, you know, if I was a woman, certainly I wouldn't have been going and jumping in the tub with all these guys. And I said So It's OK. I won't. I'll see you in the morning. I had four guys come to Oh, don't be ridiculous. You're a part of us. You're important to us. And one came Trump. Come on, let's get naked together and there. And at that point, I think any pretence of these guys saying, you know, it might have been homophobic. It dropped. [01:26:30] And that's the story. I remind them of a couple of little one ones more. I've probably been the butt of the joke more often than telling the joke. Um, so, uh, one workplace I was in one of the women at the tea room says, Oh, I hear you're bisexual. Um, does that mean you have to bis now? I didn't instantly think of the the, you know the had joined her about [01:27:00] Oh, just as well. I'm independently wealthy you know. So I took it seriously. Later on that day, I got called into the boss's office and told off her, speaking inappropriately about my sex life in the tea room. Well, I wasn't gonna take that. And I explained the situation to her glaring at the same time that I knew that she was bisexual and it was not owning to it. Um, I got it back down from the boss. And who then, um, spoke to the other coworker about, [01:27:30] um, that thing. But it's that thing of like and just one last image as a little, uh, a younger child going through, um, family photos. I came across this 10, that's really interesting. My father, dressed in drag for a rugby club, do never spoke of it, but it was like, it's always nice to have that other look at somebody. Yeah, just one other little thing. My mother lovely Christian woman. Godly woman loved me dearly, [01:28:00] but really couldn't get a head around what it meant to be a gay man. A few weeks or months before she passed on. Um, she gave me a birthday card. Now, to this day, I do not know whether she actually understood what that card said or not. But on the outside, it said, I wish you peace. I wish you joy you turned over. I wish you'd find a nice toy boy. [01:28:30] I could have a number of funny little, um, anecdotes about things. Um well, I will talk about I've been elected the mayor of CARTERTON. A month later, I was had, uh, received an invitation to attend Government House for the, um uh, the queen was there. Dame Cath was our governor general at the time. And secretly and quietly before I became elected as the mayor, her and her daughter, Judith Tizard, um, sent me a $50 donation each for my campaign. [01:29:00] Just quietly, don't tell anyone. And, um, which was lovely of them, and I had never met either of them before. Now I'm mayor. A month later, I'm heading off down to Government house in Wellington to attend this garden party in her honour. And, um and I'm just in the crowd with everyone else. I saw met Leanne Dalzell for the first time there, and she remembers this this occurrence that happened. And, um, and I over Daniel who was our big time Olympic [01:29:30] swimming person. Then, uh, this is 1995. I'm I'm talking about. And, um So when the queen came out and was going, you know, and sort of form formalities happening and the, you know, the people parted because Dame Cath was escorting the queen down the front lawn through the, uh people and introducing to her to people whose names Dame Cath could remember and, um, no doubt and are heading for a VIP tent at the bottom [01:30:00] of the garden. Um, down there were all the good and the great of parliament and the diplomatic corps and mare, et cetera, et cetera. People like that were in a roped off area, so we the 600 pled standing behind the rope were not to go, no further kind of thing. I rushed to the sort of line we were all standing to see the queen. I'd never seen the queen in the flesh before. And so, you know, um, and I was there, and, um, Dame Keith comes down towards us over the other [01:30:30] side, where she's introducing people. Keith clocks me over the other side, and I'm standing next to these two very plu ladies who then prepared themselves for meeting the queen as they saw Kath heading in our general direction, Uh, with the Queen. And they even disposed of their champagne glasses that they were holding on behind them without sort of thinking and prepared themselves for the introduction to the Queen, to which Dame Cath turned around and looked me straight in the eyes. And she said, Your Majesty, I'd like to introduce you to the first, Um, uh, to [01:31:00] the newly elected mayor of Carterton Georgina Baer. The two ladies next to me just about fell apart that the queen should be risked at such embarrassment to be meeting someone like me because I was a bit high profile at the time. And, um, and all of that and I started to chat with the queen when she heard the name Carterton. Um, she, um said, Oh, yes, carterton. We have one in Oxfordshire and I said, and I said, you know, I said, Oh, well, that's wonderful. I said I must get in touch with the local mayor [01:31:30] and and make sister cities out of us or something like that. He said, Yes, we fly in and out of the air base there in in in Carterton, Oxfordshire quite often. And, um so, yes, I know what you mean. And that was sort of that. An off down to the VIP tent with Cath. The two ladies were I had to go and get another glass of champagne to just believe what they'd seen this tranny had been, Uh, well, I'm looking at all the people in the VIP area thinking now that would be handy to make a connection with the mayor of, [01:32:00] um, the connection with the Prime Minister Bulger. It was at the time so And I just thought, I wonder what would happen if I just walked in there, you know, with the people who were sort of guarding the entrance to it, Sort of stop me or whatever. So I looked confident and stood up, and actually, as I'm walking towards them, I said, Oh, hello. Good afternoon. Thank you for what you're doing. Thank you. And just walk past them. And the next thing I know, I was in there, and the next thing you know I'm in there, so I'm chatting away. I introduce myself to Tiffany O'Regan. Um um, get acknowledged [01:32:30] by Mr Bulger and all of that and that sort of thing. I'm having a yarn with Joan Bulger who's there. And she said, Oh, I see. Um, you were introduced to the Queen and I said, Yes, first real queen I've ever met without thinking what I was saying, I hadn't practised it. It wasn't strategized. It just came out of my mouth. Well, it was It was true, the first real queen I've ever met. And, um, and all of that and Joan Bulger, titted and I and I suddenly realise what I said and I said, Oh, my goodness, I said, Just as well, [01:33:00] there's no reporters in here. She points to, um, a Dominion Post reporter standing with an ear shot who caught everything because it was the headline in The Dominion the next day and all of that. So that was sort of rather funny. I met the Queen several times after, Um, since that particular time in 95. I met her at the in the, um, receiving line at the airport when she came for her Silver Jubilee in, uh, in, uh, 2000. When was that? 2002 or something like that. And, [01:33:30] um, the scandal on that one was, and the big picture was of me and the queen shaking hands because it was the first public sort of thing. You know, when we were out in the public and the press packs are there and they took a photo of her and I meeting because people thought, Oh, there'll be a headline on this and there was in the British newspapers the following day. I sort of had headlines like, Bye, George, it's the Queen and then a rather sort of nice, possibly insulting, but a nice you know, sort of friendly article. Helen Clark, as prime minister, wears evening [01:34:00] trousers to the state dinner in a day or, you know, a day or two after. And she was ridiculed and pilloried through every publication in the UK because she wore trousers, not a dress. You know, if you're going to dine with the queen and all of that, you know, you got to wear the proper thing, a ridiculous thing to have had happened and, um, you know, and all of that, So that's just just one more. There's quite a few. I gotta write a book. I found myself at a conference [01:34:30] of 100 parliamentarian women from around the world who are meeting to discuss Children who are put on the front line of war around the world and into sex trafficking and human trafficking and things like that. So we were meeting in Rome, we had our conference and the last thing on the agenda, Um uh, for the for the week that we were there was to go to the Vatican and, uh, we thought, Oh, great, you know, and we'll be there. We'll be able to see the Pope will come out and do this Friday thing or whatever he does. And and I was all excited. I was looking forward to seeing the Sistine Chapel in Saint Peter's. [01:35:00] We get there and we got escorted not towards Saint Peter's, but to the papal apartments. And we were taken up to this chamber, and I kept on thinking, Oh, gosh, I wonder who's walked these steps and all of that sort of thing, and, um, we get up to this chamber, we could see where the pope was going to come in, and all of that sort of stuff everybody surged down the front of the room. Particularly, uh, some of the Asians, Filipinos, for example. And South American, devoutly Catholic people. Um, you know, who didn't expect that we were going to [01:35:30] have this intimacy with the pope? That it was with us and not with the thousands of others outside or whatever like that. So they were beside themselves. In fact, I was really taken, um, by the the the feeling that came over them and they knew they were going to get this. I missed on getting anywhere near the front to get a good view or whatever like that. So I ended three rows from the back, but on the aisle, Well, the pope actually arrived from behind us, not up the front, coming out of some side doors from behind us. And And he [01:36:00] was on his John Paul the second he was wheelchair bound at that time, and his assistants helped him and got him lined up at the, uh, you know, beginning of the passageway down to where his papal throne was gonna be. And he would address us and everything from there and before they sort of, you know, they didn't get got his gowns and things all sorted while he's sitting. He's standing right next to me was sitting right next to me and I'm looking straight at him. And so when he was, um, uh, together he looks up at me and that way he did and blesses me. And this cold [01:36:30] chill ran through me and thought, I am the least Christian person. I am Catholic person in this room, and I'm getting blessed by the pope. When I came back to New Zealand, I had to go and do battle with Brian Tamaki on the TV. And I made some disparaging remarks he had made against me at that time or whatever. And then I turned around and said, At least at the end of the day, Brian, I've been blessed by a pope, And, um, thank you. Thank you. [01:37:00] You guys, any specific stories or can't compete with that? Yeah, I don't think any of us can compete with that. Um, I don't have lots of funny intersex stories, but what I do have is my dad's stupid sense of humour. And it served me Well. This is, um, as you know, from pitch in America. there are [01:37:30] intersex has been around forever. In fact, we know there's intersex dinosaurs. And I'm very proud that the largest dinosaur that was on planet Earth was here in a and it was a vegetarian. So because of red hair and in New Zealand, like, um, America symbolically, that's roughly how many intersex people there are. So same as people with red hair [01:38:00] for the formal segment. Um, but yeah, feel free to stick around and, um, do some mingling and things, but yeah, we just kind of want to, um yeah, express our thanks to you guys and, um yeah, give you a little a little something as a token about immense appreciation for coming here today and sharing your wealth of of stories and experience with us. And there was such a great broad spectrum of, um yeah, like, experience [01:38:30] here today. So it was a complete honour to have you all here to be so generous. Said by others before that, I really appreciate We really appreciate that you've made this forum available. Um, I think we do have things to share with you if you want to hear them. And if you want to know them. And for heaven's sake, don't be afraid ever to approach us over some matter or whatever. We might be able to help, you know, um, by sharing some wisdom. So thank you for this. I think it's positive [01:39:00] our younger generation didn't what most of us here have work to achieve in our lives one way or another to have this youth who in who feel confident that the future is secure, uh, for activism to continue and, uh, where it's until it's not necessary anymore.
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