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Well, my name is Matthew Lin and I worked for the BBC in the 19 nineties. And, uh, one of my main roles was cop presenting and producing, uh, a weekly gay and lesbian magazine programme for the BBC, which went out in the greater London area every week for seven years. The BBC started gay broadcasting quite late on, but actually, if you delve into the archives, you will hear hidden voices, uh, that were [00:00:30] coming out of the airwaves. Well, really? Right back from the, you know, late twenties. You'll find those sort of spinster maiden aunts and Fay young men and confirmed bachelors that crop up in radio dramas, you know, subtly hidden away. Um, there are quite a few good Postwar examples. For instance, the long running radio soap The Archers, the longest running soap opera in the world. Uh, they had a character called Lady Hilb in the early fifties. Now, Lady Hilb um drifted into Ambridge. She was called the Lavender Menace [00:01:00] of Ambridge, apparently, and, uh, she tried to pick up Christine Archer young Christine Archer, who was sort of a late teens impressionable girl and tried to persuade her to go to um, I think it was Ethiopia or or somewhere in Africa as her in inverted commas secretary. And there was there was clearly some sort of lesbian subtext going on. Uh, but actually, Christine, um, had some boyfriend problems at the time, and the whole thing just fizzled out. So some say that Christine had a narrow escape. [00:01:30] Um, there was another radio soap. The Dales, or Mrs Dale's Diary. Was was the first known that ran from the fifties to 1967. Now there was a character in that called Richard Fulton. Now Richard Fulton was a very a sort of Oscar Wilde literary character. Again, the subtext was fairly clear. Except to Mrs Dale. She didn't understand this at all. And Mrs Dale's sister Sally married Richard Fulton. Um, and he did quite well out of this marriage. He got a chauffeur and [00:02:00] two Pekinese dogs and, um, he, um uh, latterly as all these sort of stock gay characters, some nasty incident had to befall them, and he was eventually run over by a lorry. Now he survived. Um, but he was very troubled, deeply troubled. And as the series came to an end in 1967 we discovered that Richard Fulton, uh, went off to Paris to explore his homosexuality. We were told this, uh, which came as a huge surprise to everyone, except well, [00:02:30] in fact, no one but Mrs Dale herself who was terribly surprised about this. So those are sort of sort of the kind of fictional characters. On the other hand, you had some more sort of serious debates. For instance, there was a character called Dr Jakko Bronski. Now he wrote a play which dealt with homosexuality in the early fifties, which was broadcast. And then in 1955 he took part in a discussion programme and the, um, historian of gay radio and television in the UK Keith House. [00:03:00] He credits this discussion in 1955 as the first time that the word homosexuality was actually used on the BBC. Explicitly. This was quite a prescient event as well, because it was just the following year that the wolfenden committee was convened by the conservative Gov government to look into homosexuality and prostitution, both of which were illegal at that time. Uh, so it sort of illustrates that there were sort of shifting grounds and you know public, not necessarily. Attitudes were were [00:03:30] was shifting, but it was that the the the issues were being debated. Um, so that was the mid fifties, um, skipping forward a little bit to the, uh, mid sixties. You had the comedy show around the horn, which ran from 1965 which is a an enormous success. A complete institution. Um, the mainstay was Keith Horn, and he had a selection of comic characters and regular sketches that appeared sort of every week. It was required listening for a Sunday afternoon audience, [00:04:00] and two of the most enduring popular characters were Julian and Sandy, played by Kenneth Kenneth Williams and Hugh Paddock. Um, and the two characters, Julian and Sandy, were chorus boys or retired chorus boys. And every week they kind of set up these comic situations. Um uh, things like they set up bona books and bona boys and they used to do hairdressing. And they tried all sorts of, [00:04:30] you know, different avenues of employment. And they used the gay slang polari. And Kenneth Horn was kind of the to this. He he didn't the foil he comic foil, he he was very straight in this and he's kind of was nonplussed about everything. And it was really interesting because there was a lot of a lot of risque language. Yet it appealed to both sides of the audience. The gay subtext was very clear and very strong. So, you know, any gay men and lesbians would have absolutely loved it. It was written by straight men. Interestingly, Barry took and, [00:05:00] um, uh, Marty Feldman amongst them. And, um, a straight audience would probably sort of take it on face value as sort of good natured camp humour. Possibly not understanding all of the the polari, you know, boner to Vardy dolly old and all of that, You know, at the on that and all of that sort of stuff. Um, but it was It was mainstream popular entertainment. Um, yet interestingly too. Julian and Sandy weren't exactly kind of crusading figureheads [00:05:30] for gay liberation at that time. Uh, they really belonged to the sort of the 19 fifties drawing room theatrical camp tradition. So it was really sort of slightly out of step and out of time. But in 1967 homosexuality was decriminalised. The age of consent was set at 21. Um, moving forward into the 19 seventies. Um, the BBC, you know, obviously had a duty to kind of reflect what [00:06:00] was going on in society. Um, and there was a discussion programme which ran in the early seventies called. So you think you've got problems, which just sound a little bit cliche, but it actually was a sort of a genuine, you know, panel discussion. Uh, people presented their problems and they would try and sort of resolve them in a kind of brains trust kind of way. And a character came along, and I think it was a 73 called Martin. He was in his early twenties, and he came out and his parents reacted very badly. [00:06:30] And so he came on air before the panel and got a very, um, very sympathetic response. I mean, it was said by the panel, you know, it's your parents. You've got to change. You're not doing anything immoral. Um, you've They've got to move with the times, and I think it was quite interesting to kind of say, you know, you you sort of get this impression that the BBC is trying to mediate its way not only between the parental generation, but also these kind of emerging forces where you've got [00:07:00] glam rock. You've got very glamorous bisexuality. You've got the days of, um, gay liberation, which was, you know, it's in its throes, really in the early seventies and was very popular and quite a powerful movement. And you do get the sense, that kind of intelligent conversation and, um, sort of mediated talk was trying to sort of deal with this in a more constructive way. However, uh, an addition of so you think you've got problems? Slightly. Later on, [00:07:30] um 75 roughly dealt with lesbians and lesbian lives, um, and was apparently a whole special build around lesbianism. It was pulled at the very last minute. So the BBC got cold feet, and there were nervous executives who just thought this was something that was too far beyond the pale. Um, by the time we get to the eighties, um, the political landscape has changed dramatically with the election of the Thatcher government and gay men and lesbians, um, were [00:08:00] feeling under attack in in many areas. Um, HIV was starting to be a problem. Um, the Thatcher government had Section 28 which was designed to prohibit the promotion of homosexuality on the rates. So it was basically stopping local councillors, local councils and schools having anything to do with homosexuality. Um, trying to push it back in the closet. So these were turbulent times. And it was, um, interesting that the gay press, [00:08:30] the printed press became very popular. Um, quite powerful, quite a vocal lobby, but much more coordinated. Um, and certainly there were newspapers emerging sort of by the late eighties magazines and so on. Um and it's in the eighties that we heard the first sort of genuine gay community voices on radio. Uh, there was a community station which may or may not have broadcast legally. We're not entirely sure, but an archive [00:09:00] exists in the National Sound Archive at the British Library in London. And these were tapes that were recorded off air. So somebody sat at home basically with a cassette recorder recording these things. And one of the tapes is of a short series called Gay Waves. So this is the first example that we think we've got of, um, British gay radio, and it's it's beautifully done. Actually, it's it's, um, clearly amateur, but great fun. Um and, uh, the way that they could have take [00:09:30] the news and subvert it. So, for instance, they run, um, reports about cottaging problems on the London Underground. So their idea of a traffic report is to talk about, you know, the a provocateur who are operating in the Cottages at Baker Street on the platforms there. But it's clear if you go to Oxford Circus and so on. So it's beautifully knowing and and great fun. And, um, I think it must have been a breath of fresh air for people listening at that time. Um, it was in [00:10:00] 1993 that the BBC kind of grasp the nettle finally and allowed gay men and lesbians, um, onto radio. I think part of the sea change came about because of so many gay men and lesbians just working in the radio industry who were out. I mean, they were out in the workplace. And so there was an internal lobbying as well as an external lobbying, and people felt that, you know, secure enough in their jobs and in their employment to want [00:10:30] to talk about homosexuality. You know, it's it's our lives, so why can't we do this on the airwaves? We're all licenced payers after all. So you know we should be represented And the gay and lesbian community really was the last community to find its voice. There had been Asian programmes, black programmes, Jewish programmes, Irish programmes and so on for many, many years before you finally got to gay programming and it happened in a bit of a burst. Really. In 1993 [00:11:00] Radio four, the National Speech Station uh broadcast a one off programme on Sunday, the 14th of February, Valentine's Day. It was called a Sunday outing and it was just an hours magazine programme designed to reflect gay life in the UK at that time, Um and they had an outside broadcast from Blackpool. Um, they had coming out stories. It was a real of stuff, Um probably a bit ambitious trying to cram everything in and and avoiding [00:11:30] too much controversy. Um, it had a news element as well. Um but that was the first big broadcast. Uh, just a month later, um BBC GLR Greater London Radio, The station that broadcast for the London area, Um where we piloted our gay programme now GLR was quite interesting. It was at that time. It was fairly typical of a BBC local station because they had an FM frequency, which had it the regular [00:12:00] pre, you know, weekday daytime presenters, Um, music based, but with some phone in stuff. Um uh, you know, a mix of content news, obviously. But local stations usually had an AM frequency as well, so they were able to split off in the evenings and do some specialist stuff on AM, which is what GL I used to do. So they had at certain times every evening they had a black programme, a Jewish programme, an Asian programme, An Irish programme [00:12:30] four of these four nights a week. Friday nights was always vacant. They it was almost like, you know, we're waiting for a community to come along and we'll give them this spare hour. And GLR did actually pilot, um, some other alternative gay programmes, including one that featured Paul Gaucci. Now, Paul Gaucci is a very revered, experienced, uh, radio broadcaster. Originally from America, the of broadcasters, um, fabulous guy with rich career [00:13:00] and, um but he's a gay man and he's very out, and he was one of the people who piloted for GLR now, for whatever reason, and nobody's very clear why that programme never made it to air. I came along with my friend Dixie Stewart. We'd been at university together. I was working on the gay press at the time the Pink Paper and Boys magazine. So I kind of had the gay press contacts, the journalism credentials, but no radio experience. Dixie, on the other hand, was a trained radio journalist. [00:13:30] And so we put our heads together and we came up with a gay programme idea. We took it to the BBC. Uh, we were made to do three pilots and eventually they gave us the Friday night slot and we went on air in March 1993. Um, the programme is called Gay and Lesbian London, which you know, is a very clunky title. But it doesn't offend anybody, and it is what it says on the tin and actually it as I think I'm fairly certain that it it [00:14:00] it fit in with the other community programmes because the others were called Irish London, Jewish, London, Black, London, Asian, London. So I think we were, But, you know, we had to be that. Anyway, Um, uh, we probably had debates about whether or not to use the word queer, but I think it was felt that it wouldn't really work on the BBC. And it obviously, it was a very politicised term, particularly at that time. As I remember, I personally had no objection to it. But I, I don't think it would have sat with the programme. Um, at that time, [00:14:30] each programme is an hour hour in length and we followed a magazine format. A very traditional magazine. Really? Um, we included some news. Uh, there was always some interviews, usually big name interviews, if we could get them. Um, there were some regular features we had one of our early regular contributors. Um, was, um Well, we had a paper review newspaper review and we had various people who used to come in and present that, and one of them was a sister of the Sisters of perpetual indulgence that were very big at the time. Another [00:15:00] was a cabaret performer, Adele Anderson, who's still performing today with fascinating Aida. And she's a transsexual. So she kind of brought another element to the programme. Um, and we did some outside broadcasts. I mean, it was a fairly rudimentary programme, as I recall, you know, uh, there was absolutely no money. I mean, we we got paid £35 each as presenters. We didn't really have a producer. We sort of cobbled it together on our own. Um, but we were [00:15:30] lent. I think there was somebody in the office who, um, was a lesbian, and she sort of came and helped us in our own time. But, I mean, it was there. There was no, you know, we we all we all had other jobs, other things that we were doing. It was part time purely and simply, But of course, we were given free reign in to some extent. I mean, we were just left alone to get on with it. And we were We learned as we went along, so we we were, you know, very lucky in some respects, Um uh, that we were allowed to breathe and just, you know, grow the thing organically. [00:16:00] And after about 18 months, I think possibly less than that. Perhaps about a year. Um, the BBC uh uh, there was a big reorganisation of the wavelengths and um all the local stations lost their AM frequencies. Now, of course, GLR could have just said, Well, that's the end of the community programmes. You've lost your frequency, but they didn't. They, uh, kind of submerged them into the FM output. So we were transferred to FM, which was a sign of recognition. You know, that was a good thing. The [00:16:30] other thing we lobbied quite hard for was because they put us out on a Friday night. Not late. I mean, I think it was an eight or nine slot. Um, but, you know, Friday night, we we sort of argued quite vociferously, if if there is one thing that sort of characterises our audience, it's the fact that they're not in on Friday night listening to the radio, um, it took them a while to get that message. So when we went on to FM, we were given Thursdays, which were much, much better, huge relief. And also the reception was much, much [00:17:00] better because FM was a far stronger signal in London. AM was really bad, and we had to play music because was a music station. Um and it it it was It was a really good thing to go on to FM because we began to think more about the music and we tried to integrate our music with the station's music policy. I mean, there was a playlist after all. Um, although we were recognised as a specialist programme. So we tried to integrate ourselves much more within the station to feel part of it, Not just this sort of little ghetto bit that existed somewhere else. [00:17:30] That was quite important. So what were some of the issues that, uh, cropped up when you were establishing the programme in terms of things like, um, being representative choosing hosts? How how did that all work? I think we were really keenly aware that that, you know, it was a very, um it it's it's a big step to try and establish a gay lesbian programme that was trying going to represent everybody. I mean, it's, you know, in some respects it's it's not possible. And also I think we were very, [00:18:00] you know, it was the BBC. Now you know, we presented to the BBC as two Oxbridge graduates, you know, sort of white middle class. So we were safe. Dixie. She brought with her the essential radio skills, you know? And she was an assured performer on air and technically brilliant. Um, so So we were very conscious that we were being very BBC about the whole thing. Even though, of course, the BBC themselves did would run a mile from the suggestion that they were hiring [00:18:30] safe presenters. They didn't like the idea of Oxbridge white middle class people, but we were, you know, we weren't pretending anything else. Um, so we were very BBC in that respect. Uh, we did try. Obviously try to be as inclusive as possible to the many different, you know, sort of sub communities within the gay and lesbian community. Um So, for instance, having Adele on regularly Who's transsexual, Um, and having ethnic minorities represented as well, Probably that was one area that [00:19:00] we struggled with. Because, of course, there are historically some some issues and divides that exist. Um, for instance, pride in those days, the big Pride march or the festival Post Pride Festival was held in Brockwell Park. Brockwell Park is in Brixton. Brixton is has got a huge Afro Caribbean population and has always been It's been very popular with gay men and lesbians as a place to live. But they don't necessarily sit well comfortably side [00:19:30] by side with the African and Caribbean communities or the black minority communities. There have been tensions. And when pride was on, there were a lot of gay bashings. It just happened year after year. So there were lots of complaints and this was sort of one of those, you know, cultural divide issues that I think we found quite difficult to to talk about. You know, it became it became quite an issue, sometimes deposit the notion that some of our brethren in other communities might be homophobic. Uh, but I do recall that [00:20:00] being sort of one of the issues that came up the management themselves, you know, they were obviously quite scared at times. And I remember an executive saying to us, You know, I'm I just I don't want you proselytising on air. I don't want lesbians proselytising about sex. I don't want gay men dressed as nuns running around the place, and we sort of, you know, shook our heads. And of course we did all of those things and much, much more. So was there any other resistance from the BBC to establish a queer programme. No, I don't. [00:20:30] I don't recall that when we started on this station, we were made to feel incredibly welcome. We were I remember going to functions and we were introduced. And we had a fantastic editor, Um, Gloria Abramov, who's an independent producer now and but still producing for the BBC. And she was really proud of us. I mean, she was she was a fantastic patron to have because she would push you and, you know, back you up, defend you. I learned everything from her. Really? Uh, and she was our bullock against anything [00:21:00] that was, if anything was going on politically. And I was probably a bit young and naive, and I probably wasn't aware some of the stuff going on, but she always defended us, and we were always made to feel completely welcomed by all the staff. And you have to bear in mind it was one of those odd odd things, because by saying hello, I'm Matthew and I present the gay programme. It's you You're coming out all the time repeatedly. Uh uh. But but people would, you know, never ever had a problem and it was a very it was a genuinely great station to work on, um, [00:21:30] at that time now it's interesting. At the same time, the a Sunday outing programme that had been broadcast by Radio Four that had been and gone, uh, Radio four decided not to pursue it with a series. However, the production company who made that programme then went to five live now five live is another BBC network so broadcast nationally, uh, they are sport and chat mainly. But they do have some magazine programmes and they commissioned from the production [00:22:00] company a, uh a series of gay news programmes which was called out this week and they went out on a Sunday. Uh, I can't remember exactly what time but a sort of evening slot, and they were commissioned in sort of short series sort of 10 12 week blocks and that coexisted with us very nicely. They I think they started in 94. Um, and it worked really well because they were looking at things from a more news agenda. They kind of had a [00:22:30] hard, hard news. They were very clear on that, Um and they loved getting scoops. And that kind of thing, which we just didn't have the resources to do. We We did our best, but we couldn't really compete on that level. They didn't do music. They only had 25 minutes of their time. Um, they did do personality stuff. They like doing their outside broadcast as well. But it was a very nice mix. And they were national where we were London. The other major difference was that they had money. They they were an independent commission, and they had big bucks. In [00:23:00] fact, I used to do bits and pieces for them. There was a very nice sort of synergy between all of the, uh the sort of those who worked in gay radio, um, which probably didn't didn't exist. I don't think in the gay press so much, but, um So, for instance, my co presenter was a woman called Rebecca Sandals. Now, Rebecca was another old university friend. Um, but she also worked with the out this week crew as well. And later Rebecca left our show to go and work full time for them. Um, [00:23:30] we had, um, other stand in presenters who worked for out this week. I did bits and pieces for them. So it was. It was quite a nice pool of gay and lesbian broadcasters, and we sort of shared ourselves around. Really? So when you started gay and lesbian in London, who were you targeting? Was it a mainstream audience or was it a gay and lesbian audience? We had this fairly clearly worked out, Um, and we called it an assumed perspective. So it meant that we didn't want to be perennially [00:24:00] arguing, um, about coming out. And we didn't want to keep explaining or apologising what it was like to be gay, which had been the tendency for a lot of gay media in the past. I mean, you would simply end up with endless debates justifying being gay, which is probably what a Sunday outing kind of came up against a bit in their programme. But, I mean, you know, they that was only the first one. But it was an awful lot like, this is what it's like to be gay. So we just stepped [00:24:30] back and said, No, we're just going to be who we are and just look at life as we see it as simply as that on a more serious side and And this came from Dixie. She always said, you know, the one thing she absolutely wanted amongst above, above all else was to reach out to people who felt that they were alone. I mean, this is the big US P for radio, Of course, it's that, you know, they people can be listening at home, under the bed, clothes in private, in the closet. You know, you [00:25:00] don't have to come out to listen to a gay programme. And so we were We were keenly aware that we just wanted to make sure that anyone anyone could access and listen to the programme. And if we stopped somebody, you know, um, from harming themselves or if we helped somebody who needed to get in contact with somebody else to talk about what they were going through then we were doing, you know, a public service that was, you know, really clear to us now, whether it was mainstream or a gay audience. I suppose [00:25:30] we didn't really care. In a strange way. I mean, you know, whoever heard us heard us, we certainly didn't want to be exclusive. I mean, we were very clear I I do remember some of the early programmes could be far too insular. And we could be very, um just like a gay cocktail party. We were having a great time in the studio, but didn't matter about anybody who was listening and and that, you know, we had to keep pulling it back from that. But as to who was listening, well, I mean, you know, when we ran competitions or get guests [00:26:00] on the phone or things like that, you know, who knew if they were gay or straight? I mean, we didn't ask. It was they could have just been the regular station listeners, or they could be people who just tuned in for that one hour. I think the one thing we wanted to guard against was we didn't want to have people who were listening to the station. Um think, Oh, it's eight o'clock. We've got to switch off now because this isn't for us, you know, I mean, by using the station's music policy by using all of the branding. You know, we were very clear that we were part [00:26:30] of that integrated output, but, I mean, I'll give you some examples, you know, the the guy who used to, um it was my car mechanic, and I used to take my car in every year for a service and, you know, a straight guy from South London. And 11 time I took his car and he says, Do you do a show on the radio? Then I said, Yeah, yeah, And he listened, you know, he was he was a GLR listener and he would just listen. I mean, I I've always met over the years all sorts of people who caught the the show. You know, that's great. [00:27:00] Did you ever consciously stop or start yourself from using language that was specifically used, say, in gay and lesbian culture? Well, we did have a few issues. Um, language is a a really hot potato for the BBC anyway, and still is to this day, and the the ways things are produced today are so far removed from how we did it. But there were times when the BBC, [00:27:30] when in the form of our editor, was a bit nervous. I remember one of the earliest was a discussion about safer sex and say, for sex and gay men, you know, you need explicit language or you need the language that gay men talk in. Um, and I remember having, you know, endless discussions about what we could and couldn't say. So, for instance, we couldn't I remember this. We, uh we we were talking to the health worker, Andrew, and he was going to explain [00:28:00] whatever it was, he want the point he wanted to make, But he wasn't allowed to use the phrase precum couldn't say precum, for some reason, we were told. So we said, Well, what can we say? And apparently we could say pre seminal fluid. So that's what the poor guy we had to say. Look, you can't say that, but you can say this. You got to say pre seminal fluid Now, obviously, the F word was was largely out of bounds. Um, except on [00:28:30] two occasions, I do recall when it concerned a piece of work, there was a book by I think it was Dale Peck called Effing Martin, and we were allowed to say that. And then there was the the play by Mark Ravenhill, shopping and effing, and we were allowed to say that as well. So now and again if you if you were forewarned. If you told them it was These are obviously referable words. And you said, Look, we're going to say this. Can we say this, please? And they would say Yes. You can say it once and once only, and you mustn't use it. You know, you gotta be sensible [00:29:00] about it. So we were allowed to do those sorts of things. And then there was this terrible, terrible occasion when, uh, one of our guests, um, came on the show and she had been to review This was Angela Mason. Angela Mason ran Stonewall, which was the big gay lobbying group. And so she she was, you know, an enormously influential woman. Um, done a lot of good work with the community. Anyway, we sent off to review a play at the National Theatre. She came on, talked about this play and [00:29:30] she talked about the humour in the play, and she talked about a joke that was in this play. I can't even remember what the play was. Unfortunately, the punch line of this joke involved the C word which she had told us, and I I was just a bit too slow on the uptake. I just thought Did she just say that? And I just thought of anyway, I just moved on my producer, the other side of the glass. She heard it and she phoned up the deputy editor because there'd been a bit of an issue about language on the station. Generally, Deputy Editor said, [00:30:00] get her out in the studio. So we had to get her out of the studio and say, I'm really sorry. So we just cut her off. Um, And then it went off to the editor, the managing editor, and he went ballistic, And he he I remember sort of, you know, phone calls into the night. He was convinced he was going to get the sack. It was all my fault and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah And, of course, what had happened. You know, he sort of got this image of this sort of shaven headed lesbian sort of jumping around the studio shouting obscenities, whereas in fact, Angela Mason had dinner with Cabinet [00:30:30] ministers. You know, on first name terms with the great and the good, you know, And it was a genuine slip up. Um, so it was eventually smoothed over Angela apologised, and we had to. Our punishment was we had to prerecord for a couple of weeks, but it was the worst moment of my career. What about areas that you just would not cover on radio? Were there things that you that were just No go? I don't think there were, to be honest, I mean, I think the only things that we the only limitations we had were [00:31:00] really our budget, lack of and resources. There was an awful lot of goodwill. Um, and we did do some quite ambitious stuff. Um, I mean, I'll give you some examples of the things we did do. Um, but so we certainly did cover, uh, sexual health a lot. Um, we made sure we did that. Um, we used to do these great one hour specials. Um, where you would sort of get a panel in, and you'd sort of prerecord it, and it would be thematic. So we did one [00:31:30] about gay parenting. Older gay men and lesbians. I remember interviewing Quentin Crisp for that one. we used to do we did one on gay teenagers. There was definitely a lesbian special. Those So those themed things were really good. We were the first programme, I believe, to broadcast a live outside broadcast from pride. Um, which is brilliant JL. I had an outside broadcast vehicle which resembled a sort of a hot dog van with a plank out the front. I mean, it really was. It was very tacky, [00:32:00] but we had a great day. I mean, every and everyone wanted to come and talk, you know, there was no one said No, Um what we did. Music specials. We used to do these brilliant shows where we would just get one guest in for an hour and they would just choose their music. And it was a really good way of getting to know people, and it was a bit like Desert Island discs, but you could really get to sort of find out what made them tick. So we had people like Peter Tatchell. Who's the big gay rights campaigner? Uh, we had Angela Mason, the aforementioned Angela [00:32:30] Mason. Um, Jimmy Somerville did one. I think boy George did one. You know, Um oh, Janice Ian was one of my favourites. The singer Janice Ian. She was terrific. Um, so I think I think the one thing. The one thing that we probably didn't do as a as a, um, as a format was we just didn't do phoning, you know, that wasn't part of our remit. Um, I think if you were doing a gay programme now, you would It would just be very phone in based and very [00:33:00] interactive. Remember, we were pre Internet days, you know, we were like, when we did competitions. Uh, you could get people on the phone sometimes. Or you could just be writing the answer on a postcard. You know, it was it was the old school, So interaction with the audience, um, was fairly slow and limited. Um, but we didn't really go in for phone ins. It's interesting. Those names that you mentioned of some of the interviewees. I mean, they they are big names. Do you think having the BBC behind you did that [00:33:30] help or hinder the programme? Oh, it definitely helped. I, um I think also we were part of the station, which helped as well, and there were planning meetings and, you know, the you know what it's like the the competition that goes on to get the big name guest for your show. But these things were gene generally coordinated, and often you could get somebody like Victoria Wood who would come in and do the morning show and talk about one particular thing. And then we would grab her for a prerecord to [00:34:00] talk about something else that we could play out, you know, slightly later or a week later or something. So we did try to be, you know, to share. And and sometimes when it was boy George, you know, he we would get him and the others wouldn't get him, you know, he wouldn't do daytime. He would just do us. So yeah, it certainly helped by being BBC, but not always. I always remember trying to get Dusty Springfield, and she just said no. And you know, so some people were Alison Moyer. We always wanted to interview her for some reason, she always said no, you know. So there are some people that slipped [00:34:30] through the net. What was the size of your audience? Um, there was a radar. Uh, radar is the audience, uh, sort of measuring system. And, um, it only actually kicks in when you get I think it's about 500,000 listeners. And, um, so we did crop up in the radar figures, but only just because we were just over the 500. Roughly, [00:35:00] um, it often had to do with who you had on the show before what your inherited audience was. Um, so we didn't. Yeah, it wasn't new numerically that big London is a hugely competitive radio market as well. One thing we did get, though, was in in those days, there was something called the Listeners Advisory Council. Every local radio station had to have a panel of listeners and they would have monthly meetings and they would do a programme review. And I always remember [00:35:30] we produced a tape for them. And then we went and sat before the committee on on the evening, um, and listened to their feedback, and they loved it. I mean, as far as I recall, they all were genuinely very interested in it and very supportive and very encouraging. Those councils don't exist anymore, which I think it was a great shame being in the public eye. Did that change your life in No, not I was not in the public eye. No, no, no. The the the There was absolutely no fame or celebrity [00:36:00] attached to this whatsoever. It just didn't exist for me. I mean, I, I really you know, it It didn't have any particular impact at all. Except for your mechanic. Yeah, for my mechanic. No, I mean, it was genuinely very nice if people said that they listened to the programme, but it it wasn't. I was quite clear early on, Um, I listened to people and sort of I I worked out, but I didn't have the kind of the ego to be a big presenter if I wanted to. If [00:36:30] I, you know, if I had that drive and ambition, I could well have, um, you know, gone on into the mainstream as it were. I mean, one example is, um, the pre the presenter of Jewish London. For a while was a woman called Vanessa Feltz. I don't know if you've ever heard of Vanessa Feltz, but she was, um quite, you know, quite a character. Very good presenter for the Jewish programme. And she then sort of made it onto the mainstream. She became an afternoon presenter on the station. She then got picked up by television she had a morning [00:37:00] chat show. I mean, she's, you know, a very big broadcaster in the UK. Now she's she's got her own. She's got she's back on BBC London, you know, with the morning show. And she's just starting on radio two in the early mornings. You know, that path was there. Um, I decided instead I wanted to learn more about production. So as well as presenting, I took on producing the show. And that's where I learned, you know, a lot. And it was where I was able to use my radio skills to diversify and do other things which I love doing. [00:37:30] How how did the gay and lesbian community respond to the show? Uh, that was very difficult to tell. The gay press always put us in the listings, and we managed to get a few stories in there. Um, I think, you know, one litmus test was when there was a big gay story. So I remember one. There was the the scientist who came up with the hypothalamus theory about why [00:38:00] gay men are gay because of somebody with the hypothalamus. Um uh, other big stories that came along. There was a gay serial killer on the loose in the mid nineties. Um, you know, So when big things happen like that, the mainstream media would often turn to us because, you know, it's like, Well, where do you go? Oh, look, there's this gay programme and I think that was very gratifying. And I think that obviously gave us a bit of status and kudos, and it, you know, it justified our existence and what we were doing. [00:38:30] Um, but it didn't always sort of work the same way with the gay press. And I, you know, we we could never be quite certain because the gay press was quite far reaching in those days, you know, everyone picked up the gay papers, the the free papers especially. And I wasn't sure whether it perhaps we weren't because we didn't place adverts. BBC didn't buy advertising, you know, Perhaps that's why they ignore us. If we bought ads, they might have given us a bit more attention. [00:39:00] Um, I do remember doing a few public events. We did some fundraisers. We would sometimes be on panels for discussions, judging panels and things like that. I think I cop presented an award ceremony once, So there were a few things like that. But I think it was probably, you know, the lack of publicity that we had that did make life a bit difficult. Um, but when we did things like, um, you know, pride and we had a visibility and a you know, some image there that that certainly [00:39:30] got us some attention. Can you talk a wee bit about some of the more controversial moments on the show? Oh, oh, yeah, I can. There was 11 of the issues I mentioned thing about race and sexuality. And somebody wrote a book. A lesbian white lesbian journalist wrote a book about how she sort of was trying to how she saw the divisions between the lesbian [00:40:00] community, particularly on race lines. So and And I think it was quite a provocative book. And there was a column in a weekly magazine as well. That kind of stoked up the debate as well, which so you could tell that this was a real, you know, tricky issue. Uh, anyway, so we had the author of the book. Uh, she was on the phone and in the studio, we had a woman called Linda Bellos. Now, Linda Bellos was very well known. She's, um uh the she was the leader of the the council in part of London. [00:40:30] She was a lesbian, but, um, also African Caribbean origin. So she sort of crossed various communities and and quite a, um, hard hitting woman. So she she she didn't pull her punches. And that was, you know, it wasn't so much a discussion. It was, uh it was It was, you know, it was a real fiery debate. And I was with my co presenter, Rebecca and we, but we had both had real difficulty contribute at controlling this. You know, the author on the phone, [00:41:00] Linda in the studio at each other's throats. And we we we found it quite. I certainly found it quite difficult to be one of my you know, I'm very weak at that. Kind of, uh uh. Being tough on those kinds of, you know, things. Rebecca was much better than me. But I do remember the one thing I did say, You know, my my contribution to this. I simply said to Linda, look, you know, hasn't Megan the author hasn't she just got the right to say what she said. I mean, that was just, like throwing, you know, petrol on a fire. It sort of all blew up from there. So, um, it it Yeah, [00:41:30] that that was I do remember that as a really dodgy moment. Um, And I think sometimes we, um that was live. But we did sometimes prerecord things if we weren't happy. Comedians actually can be quite difficult because they they you know, some comedians like to push the envelope, and I'm not sure that they quite understand where the boundaries are. And they just think they can be controversial for the sake of being controversial and on live radio. Um, there was one American comedian who was actually banned by the BBC. [00:42:00] I mean, he goes around telling everyone he was banned by the BBC, and he certainly we we used him in the early days quite a lot, and I really liked him, but he didn't quite know where the boundary was and he would keep crossing it. We had another comedian who came on and started making references to a court case that was ongoing, which, of course, is an absolute no no. So we had to cut her off, so I think they were just the regular broadcasting. Um, traps that exist. How long did the show run for? Well, we ran gay, Lesbian London ran until, um [00:42:30] 97. I think it was. And then gradually, all of these London the London tag had started to disperse. So, for instance, the Jewish programme had ceased to be, you know, Jewish London. It was just named after the presenter. And, um, I was on to my next cop presenter. By that point, it was Jackie Clone who was a cabaret performer. Um and we decided to rebrand the programme. We thought the other thing was 97 was the watershed here because the labour government was elected. So a lot of the things that we've been fighting for, [00:43:00] you know, an equal edge of consent and the repeal of Section 28 and so on. These were all starting to happen. So in a sense, gay politics became rather depoliticized. So this whole sort of gay, lesbian London agit prop identity didn't really sit well with us. So we rebranded. We called ourselves the Lavender Lounge, so we carried on Weekly Programme magazine format. But the premise was, um, less news, and we we really just went to the theatre. I mean, we we we used to have, uh, regular [00:43:30] contributors, and we would just go and review things. And, uh, so we would always do books and, um, theatre, film art, a whole range of stuff. And it it, you know, it worked for a very successful format. But it was it was a change. Um, that continued until 2000. In 2000, the station rebranded, and a lot of the old content was dropped. And there was clearly no place for our programme in that, um and so the programme came [00:44:00] to an end. Interesting out this week also ended their run, Uh, in 99 or 2000 as well. So it it was the end of the year, right? And and we weren't the only gay programmes as well in the nineties. Um, you know, you wait for one and a whole busload arrives. There was, uh, a community station called Freedom FM, which broadcast in London. Um, there was GAY, which was run by a club promoter called Jeremy Joseph. Now he did go out in the middle of the night on a community station. Um, but he because he was a club [00:44:30] promoter, he had great showbiz contacts, and he got some really interesting, you know, guests on. Um, there was a the Manchester BBC Manchester station. They broadcast something called Gay Talk as well, so they were Suddenly there was a glut of gay broadcasting in 2000. They'd all gone. And it was It was partly because, as I say, um, all the things we've been fighting for had come about. I think there was an argument [00:45:00] that, you know, we'd become to to exist in a bit of a ghetto and that mainstream, everyday programming was doing the gay and lesbian stuff that we were doing. So why did you need a special gay and lesbian show? I mean, that is was a good argument. I think we were very clear that there were enough stories still to be told, but I do think we had run out of steam at that point. So we kind of accepted it as as our fate, but also as, um, [00:45:30] as an indication that a job well done, we'd succeeded. We were redundant because we'd done our job. And now, looking back, do you still think that way? No, I think things have changed. Um, it's 10 years and a lot's happened in that time. Um, there is still some gay radio around, um, gaydar radio in the UK, which is attached to the website. It's it's really just a musical accompaniment. Um, [00:46:00] but they they have done. They have tackled some issues. They do do some speech content. Um, there are obviously a whole host of small Internet stations, mainly jukebox stuff, music based. Interestingly, there is one station in the UK now, um, which is a community station, and it's the first full time, permanent licenced community gay station in Manchester. It's called again, very music based. So there are little pockets out there, but I think things have changed. I think [00:46:30] actually, there is a generation of gay men and lesbians who are quite keen on looking back a bit at gay heritage. And, for instance, I've done work with a group in London, uh, called the House of Homosexual Culture, and and we've been working on sort of looking at our past again and trying to get a debate going, and we've done events in theatres and various spaces, you know, sort of tours and walks. And we've done some some affairs and all sorts of, anyway great activities. And it was obvious that there was a there [00:47:00] was a need. There was something that gay men and lesbians felt that was missing in their lives. There's also a new generation, younger gay men and lesbians. I haven't got a clue about what goes on in their lives. And although they've seen some advances and you know, they they they're blissfully ignorant of things like Section 28 and they all they know is an equal age of consent. Yet I think there are still political issues that affect them. And there is still huge homophobia in schools. Terrible, homophobic bullying, which is really serious and very bad, which needs [00:47:30] to be countered. So all in all, I think there is still an audience for some specialist gay output. And I think there, you know, there, there there is. There are stories again, still to be told. And I think there is room for, um, gay broadcasting from a gay perspective where that would go and what that would be like. I don't know. Because, of course, the radio landscape has changed so much in the last 10 years. Magazine programmes don't exist. Um, stations predominantly phoning based, [00:48:00] Um, you know that although there are new technology allows lots and lots of different ways of broadcasting, it's almost narrow casting in a way, so I don't know where it would exist. But perhaps we're all broadcasters. Perhaps it's just up to us to produce our own output and put it out on websites and podcasts. I think a really interesting example is someone like Tom Robinson, who was a gay activist in the sixties and seventies and is now a mainstream BBC presenter. Yeah, Tom was, um [00:48:30] um, he he was a musician with the Tom Robinson Band. Had the big hit. Glad to be gay in 79 I think it would be. And he, um, carried on touring well, well into the nineties. Now he and I made a programme together. He was a guest on the show, and, um, he said, 01 of the sides between records. Um, he said, Oh, you know, I've always wanted to do a programme about the hidden, uh, sexuality and sexual meaning in music, and this idea sort of just sort of planted a little seed. And I went and did [00:49:00] some research and pitched it to. So would you like us to make this documentary? And they were like, Oh, yeah, go on, then that'll be nice. It'll be nice. Put it out of Christmas. It'll be good. So we did and we went away. We made this programme and it basically traced sort of way back to the, uh, early twenties, the blues. Um, you know, be Betty Smith songs. Alberta Hunter songs, uh, which has sort of had subliminal gay messages and and we sort of traced this beautiful narrative. Tom scripted it brilliantly, and and [00:49:30] we we just sort of threaded this narrative through Cole songs. And and he ended up with David Bowie and Bob Dylan. Um, anyway, lovely programme. It went out and we won a gold at the Sony Awards that year, which is fabulous. It was really, really lovely. And Tom has got a great voice and, um and he's a very, very good broadcaster, and he's he's sort of created a second career for himself and now hardly does music at all. And um is a broadcaster and he has, [00:50:00] um, presented on all the networks. He he had a series called the Locker Room, which was a kind of a men's programme, a sort of metrosexual type men's programme that ran for a few series. And then, um, most recently, he's on six music music station, and he's He's a producer, a presenter, and particularly promoting new music and new bands as a mainstream presenter. Is he openly out? He? His sort of sexual history, Um, has [00:50:30] changed somewhat. Um, he's he's now with a woman, and he's a father. So, um, and I and I think that was he he the gay press was certainly, um they certainly gave him a hard time over it. I mean, I'm not sure what label he's he's comfortable with. Uh, it never posed a sort of an issue to my programme or to us. I mean, it was, you know, he's just Tom, Um uh, you know, no matter what he does, but the gay press can be quite dogmatic [00:51:00] about these things. And straight media, of course, don't understand it. They don't you know, it's how we don't understand this sort of you know their their their way of dealing with. I mean, interestingly, Jackie, who was, you know, one of my co presenters, um, uh, you know, was was at the forefront of lesbian cabaret, toured with lesbian theatre companies and so on. Anyway, um, she's now with a man and the mother of triplets, uh, you know, and has got a great career in musical theatre. So you know, these these blurred [00:51:30] lines, I think we just live with them. So could you paint finally, a picture of what? Your ideal kind of lesbian gay queer, um, broadcasting landscape would be like, Mm, I suppose. I'd like to hear, uh, for instance, on mainstream stations. I would I would love to hear people, um, perhaps doing, um, say a specialist hour with just thinking about gay artists and [00:52:00] gay music. Um, and Tom and I explored this. We did do a couple of other programmes together, which sort of looked at some of those lesser known artists, um, like, um, kitchens of distinction. And, um, there's a lot of stuff that came out of America at one point. You know, Annie de Franco. All of these acts, um, that that just don't receive enough aeroplane enough attention, really? And they stand up to some quite interesting sort of exploration. So I sort of I'd be [00:52:30] interested in sort of, you know, regular series that think about gay artists or lesbian artists. Um, I'd like to hear, you know, a programme that might be just thinking about gay literature and gay writers and so on from that sort of queer perspective, you know, So I'd like to hear phone in topics that don't just sort of pick on gay issues for the sake of Oh, it's a gay thing, but more from a gay perspective. And I'd certainly like to hear programmes that are [00:53:00] thinking about bullying in schools and and how we deal with, you know, sexual issues with young people. You know as well as older people. You know, these sorts of discussions, you know, say for sex. You know, do we just take for granted, say, for sex these days? Where are the safer sex messages coming from? You know, that landscape has completely changed, and those sorts of topics never seem to get discussed. They sort of get pushed into the background somewhere. Um, you know, as as the legislative equality [00:53:30] has become a little bit more entrenched, you know, as you get equality in so many things and civil partnership and all of these things, that surely then creates other issues that need to be thought about and discussed and debated. So I would just like to hear lots of pockets of different things going out which have just got that, you know, queer identity and gay perspective.
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