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How are you today? I'm wonderful. Thanks. Ben. How are you? I am good. So who are you? My name is Lisa. Michelle? Who are you? I am Ben. Ben. Do you come here often? Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna go with Yes, but it's my car. So So, um, tell us a little bit about yourself. Wow. That's really general. Um, I'm older than 25. Younger than 100. I'm [00:00:30] currently training to be a chaplain. And I'm doing my placement at Rainbow Youth. A counselling young GL BT youth, Um, which I'm absolutely loving. And Yeah, pretty much I'm loving life in general. Everything is good. Why are your interests my interests? As in anything, hobbies, my interest. My interests are breathing in and breathing out. Followed closely by breathing in again. Um, I do that on a regular basis. No, I love to write. I love to sing. [00:01:00] I like to write songs. I play guitar, I play drums. Although I haven't played for a long time. My drum kit is currently locked away in a very big cupboard. Um, I play keyboard by air. I write stories, I write articles. I like to swim. I love kids. I love the elderly. I love animals. I love people. I love life. I love God. Um So where were you born and where do you live? I was born in, I think what's now known as [00:01:30] Mercy Hospital used to be known as the martyr New Zealand Auckland and currently living in Glenfield on the North Shore in Auckland. Ok, so how old are you? I use the bell. I was waiting for that. Um what gender, gender identity do you identify with? Yeah, that's a tricky one, because I've been reading up recently about all the options. Um, I'm going [00:02:00] to go with human. I believe that we all have a spirit inside our body and say what's on the outside really is irrelevant. Um, I look like a female and that I have breasts and a womb. That is true. And, um, that I dress like a boy and I actually, until the age of about 26 27 I actually dreamt I was a boy. So even in my subconscious, I was very much a guy. And yeah, I think [00:02:30] since then I've accepted the fact that I'm in a female body. I, I believe God created me that way for a reason. That's OK. Um, but I also believe that he doesn't really care what's going on on the outside. It's what's on the inside. So I'm a human spirit. Thanks for asking. Uh, what is your sexuality? I like girls, and I'll be a little bit more specific. I like one girl in particular. So at the moment, like as with the whole spirit and the human body thing, I believe in falling in love with someone's spirit. So it's regardless [00:03:00] of what gender that spirit inhabits. Um what gender body? So I'm in love with the spirit in a woman's body. Um, when did you realise that you liked girls? When did I realise I like girls? Well, I've been a boy since in my in my mind, for as long as I can remember. My earliest memory is, um, of about three or four as a um looking in at a scene. I can see myself and my sister on on little trikes playing, and we used to play play [00:03:30] chips. Don't know if you remember back in the eighties, and, uh, I was John, she was punch. She has naturally olive skin. She used to hate it, but she used to hate it that I wanted her to be a guy or a male police officer. I was quite happy being John. And every game we played, I was always a boy. Um, yeah. So I think from a very, very early age, I've identified as as a, um as what society deems a boy in a female body. So, um, when [00:04:00] it came to realising it when you're older, um, how did you feel about that? I think, as I say, I was 27 which is quite late in life, considering I've, you know, had had been feeling like a boy since I was three or four. when I came to the conclusion that I wasn't a guy and I actually stopped dreaming, you know, in my subconscious that in my night dreams that I was a boy and started accepting the fact that I was a girl. And, uh, [00:04:30] I think I was trying very much to live congruently with their female body for the fact that my body was female and I started a relationship. I was actually on the verge of coming out as gay was the night before I was going to talk to my parents. I'd watched Alan DeGeneres her comedy show back then, um, her coming out episode and it had really touched me. I was like, Yeah, that's totally [00:05:00] me. So I was going to go into my parents' bedroom, kneel at the foot of the bed and say, Hey, I'm sorry, but I think I'm gay. And I didn't for some reason and that that night, actually, I went off to work. I was working as a security officer, is a bouncer on the door of pubs and clubs in Auckland. And, um, yeah, good times and ended up having a few drinks after work. 3 a.m. ended up in sinners bar ironically, and ended up getting together with one of the security officers and thus [00:05:30] beginning a three year, um, emotionally abusive relationship. You were a security guard. There was some things I don't know about you yet. I have a black belt in hot day. I used to be a lot fitter. I'm not anymore. Don't hurt me. Well, I'm I'm just shocked. There used to be a security guard. Yeah, well, we had We were It was a security company, but effectively, we were on the door. We were bouncing. I loved it. Ok, um, did [00:06:00] you feel that you had to keep your sexuality a secret? I think I did. And I think I felt a lot of shame because of my faith. I. I thought that I'd been a Christian since I was 16. I, um, had a really awesome time with God when I was 16 and and, um, had experienced what people called Born again. I, um, was filled with the Holy Spirit and the grass was greener and the sky was bluer and life was awesome. And that lasted for about two months or exactly two months, Two weeks and two days before [00:06:30] I went back to my old habits and I was drinking and smoking and, um, smoking marijuana. I, um, have an extensive history of abusing alcohol and, um, at times jokes, Um, so yes, two months, two weeks, two days. I remember that. But I years later came across an old Bible that I had, and I'd written in it that I surrendered my life to Jesus, and I was actually 11 years old, so my faith has been very strong continues to be so today. And so because [00:07:00] of what? Um today's translations of the Bible say about homosexuality and what other people have said about it, I felt not a deep shame, but just a fear that it wasn't a belief myself, that it wasn't right and it wasn't OK, so I tried to hide that. So I mean, just what I said earlier about being on the verge of coming out and then ending up in a three year relationship with a guy who ended up being obviously a wrong choice. Very abusive, possessive, controlling relationship. Yeah, II. I didn't do myself [00:07:30] any favours by not being honest with myself and not being honest. I mean, God, God's known me since before I was formed in my mother's womb. So he's known he's known each of us before we were born, But, um, yeah, I now believe that I'm living an authentic life. I've forgotten the question. Did you feel that you had to give a That's right, I. I felt that it wasn't OK back then. Now, not ashamed. Um, so you've come out now? Yeah, [00:08:00] and only about 18 months ago, actually so really, fairly recent. I, um I decided I was living a lie and that it's OK. I think the biggest struggle was with my faith. And when I came to the conclusion that God loves me unconditionally, and that's what it's all about, what he's all about, I am. Is that your Yeah. No, no. Um, yeah, I, um What was the question again? I came out. Yes. No, [00:08:30] that's right. And then I decided that it was going to be OK that I had no one to be accountable to apart from my creator. So I, um So, um, now that you're out, um, how did you tell people that you were out? Yeah, that's what I was going to go on to. Now I can tell you the story. So it was a Sunday night family dinner, as we traditionally have, and we're sitting around the table, and, uh, I believe my sister pointed out something on the Oh, no, that's not right. My sister decided that we could [00:09:00] all do with having a more be more open and vulnerable with each other. And, um, not just talking about service service stuff at the dinner table. So she said, Um, why don't we all share something about ourselves? And I said, OK, I'll go first. I think I'm gay and that was that. And that was me voicing it for the first time too publicly. Um, and I thought my mum was going to take it the hardest. I thought that she because she's, um [00:09:30] she's Christian also. My my dad still plays the organ at an Anglican church. Um, but he's pretty open minded about things, so I didn't think it would affect him as much. Mom surprised me and just said, Hey, look, you know, we want you to be happy. Dad said the same thing. I think they've known longer than I have. I've probably known since I was young as well. Um, my sister, of course, very open and accepting. As with my brother. Um, so yeah, so, um, they react so their reaction was fairly positive, [00:10:00] very much so. They love me unconditionally. And that, to me, is a God response. You know, that's that's exactly how God is, too. He loves us unconditionally. There's nothing we can do that can separate us from his love. So, um, as for telling other people. Everybody is being positive or Yeah, I believe I came out on Facebook. So if you were to go into my timeline, um, about a year and a half ago, it'll be there. I can't remember what [00:10:30] I put. I'll have to go back and have a look myself. Um, but I wasn't ashamed. I've not been ashamed of being a Christian for all of my life. And I refuse to be ashamed of being gay and definitely not ashamed of being both. I remember how I came out the closet to people through Facebook, Facebook, through Facebook, the power of Facebook, the brave for I was pretty much just, like, send a send a massive group email and not have to worry about talking to people individually. Maybe. Yeah. So, [00:11:00] um, what was I gonna say? I've lost re, um How do you feel about all all of it together Now I feel really good. I feel I find I'm finally living congruent to my spirit, my spirit and my my emotions and my body, my mind are all as one now, as a part, you know, as opposed to feeling separate. That that that I wasn't, um I don't like the word congruence so much, but [00:11:30] I didn't feel like everything fitted. And now I feel like I fit. I fit in my body. I'm you know, I am who I am. So did you actually get any negative responses at all? I've had some interesting discussions again on Facebook threads, Um, from people who are my brothers and sisters in Christ Who I loved pieces. I know they love me. I know they want the best for me. I know that they're, um, standing on scripture and what the Bible says and good on them for being faithful to that. I also stand on scripture and, um, [00:12:00] in my personal relationship with God. And I've done a lot of research and found out that, um, that some of the scriptures have been don't want to use the wrong word here, but must translate it from original Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic And, um, that when When they talk, for example, in the old Testament, when they talk about, um, homosexuality being an abomination, it was actually acts like, um, sacrificing to idols where they, um, involved sex acts. Um, [00:12:30] with Children. Um, rape. So rape paedophilia all those things that remain today to be an abomination to God. None of that has changed in any way. But but love. There's a difference between love and lust and, um, the message version of the New Testament, which I actually like. It's a more contemporary version. Um, also, I believe God inspired, um, the guy who wrote it talks about in in Romans 1 26 I believe, is a Scripture that's often thrown at me about women [00:13:00] lying with women and men lying with men. Um, it talks about all lust and no love, so there's a big difference. This is where people are defiling themselves and defiling each other because it's it's a you know, it. It's a it's a sex thing, and it's not a love thing. And I believe intercourse and sexual relations intimacy of any kind of physical intimacy is a spiritual thing. It's a deep connection, so it doesn't need to be cheapened by, you know, not loving the person or being loved by that person. So, um, going back to, [00:13:30] um, when you came out, did you have any support? Yeah, very much. So, Um uh, more so from Non-christian friends who who weren't judging in any way. Um, actually, though, you know, I also had support from from, um from Christian friends from Christian friends who were compassionate and, um, non judgmental and aware that they, you know, But for the grace of God, go, I [00:14:00] Yeah. Yeah. So now, um, what do you do now with your six hours? Do you go out with a pride flag marching around? I, um I wear my peace Rainbow peace bracelet a lot. I have a rainbow coloured band My girlfriend put on my bag that I use for chaplaincy work. I have a big gay umbrella which I left at my parents' place yesterday. I mean, I don't know. It's like, you know, I'm a human. And first and foremost, I'm [00:14:30] a child of God. I'm Christian. And after that, I'm every other aspect of my life and and and my sexuality and who I'm in love with is, you know, is one small part of who I am. Ok, now, for some more personal questions, um, so you're currently in a relationship at the moment, right? So before that, did you dated anyway, is also a female or something like that I [00:15:00] or feminine feminine guys? No feminine guys? No, um I years and years ago. About 15 years. 00, gosh. How old am I? Um, about 15 years ago, I, uh, went out one night with a woman who was a lesbian, and this was while I was engaged to be married to a man. So I was still, um, undecided myself. And we went out to dinner. She [00:15:30] And if she's listening to this, she'll probably laugh and and slap me. But she, um She tried to jump on me, not jump me. But she tried to jump on me outside, but had a few too many to drink. And, um, yeah, didn't, uh, didn't go well, but II I mean, I don't know if I'd call that a date. I was engaged. So no, it wasn't a date. I just went out and had dinner with her. So has, um, any If you've been out or you've been in the [00:16:00] closet for so long affected, um, your relationships or being out affected your relationships with you mean personal relationships? Yeah. Um, yeah, I. I think I've chosen some interesting guys that I've been in relationship with um, long term. And, uh, yeah, I don't know if that's just me attracting a certain kind of person or what the story is, [00:16:30] and I mean that I'm not going to say that. That's why I'm now attracted to women. That's obviously not the case. I have been so since since an early age. Um, I think at a younger age, I was more like I had a crush on a teacher. Female teacher, for goodness knows how many years at school. Um, but it was never a sexual thing. It was, um yeah, purely emotional and probably looking for a mother figure as such. Ok, um, how do you meet other people? [00:17:00] Generally? Well, depending, um, if I was looking for a female partner. Yeah, OK, um well, I'm in a relationship with someone I care for deeply and and would love to one day marry, um, if I was single, and if I felt it was, um that I was ready to be in a long term relationship then, uh, you know, I'd like to say church, I'd like to find someone who has a similar world view. Um, someone on the same path as me. Someone [00:17:30] um, with a passion for God And who wants to love others as he loves us? Um, it wouldn't be in a pub or a club. That was the case. Even when I was dating guys, I, um Yeah, I guess because I had a for alcohol. It wasn't going to be wise to find someone who had a similar thing going on, so yeah, I don't know. I think I'd meet them through guess. I don't know. I'm sure God would just put them in my [00:18:00] path. How about with my current girlfriend? How about in general in general, how you meet other people in general? How do you mean? Oh, anyway, how do I become? How do I just meet people? I'll just talk to Randoms at the bus stop. I will talk to anyone and anyone. And I love people. It doesn't matter who they are. I'll stop and talk to someone homeless on the side of the street. Ask them how their day is going. Um, I can sip champagne with with, um, members of parliament [00:18:30] with my baby finger in the air, so yeah, I don't know. I mean, I meet people online on Facebook that? Um, yeah, they made They have similar interests. I meet people wherever I go. So has you been religious affected you in any way or, um affected your relationships in any way? Um, I don't like the word religious, because spirituality [00:19:00] I don't I remember. And when I was at this camp at 16, um, I remember somebody saying that Christianity isn't a religion. It's a relationship with God, and I like that very much. Um, having said that, there are now a lot of, um, churches and people who call themselves Christians, who I do see acting very religious, and, um yeah, sadly so. But who am I to judge? That's between them and God. Um, has it affected relationships? I, I Yeah, I don't know. I think now [00:19:30] I mean, being welcomed into into Rainbow Youth, a secular organisation who, you know, with the majority of people having been hurt by the church as a whole, um, they've been more more than welcoming. And yeah, I don't know. I probably not not affected. No, maybe the other way around. Maybe my, um, Christian friendships have been affected by me being gay, but that's their issue, not mine. [00:20:00] OK, what's your definition on virginity? Good one. Seeing as it's a, um, a spiritual thing, I think I mean, obviously, physically, for a female, having your home and broken is what they consider breaking your virginity. I don't know. Maybe, um, loss of innocence. Just going that extra. Don't know losing your virginity. You [00:20:30] know, according to, um, Sex Ed Books is having sexual intercourse for the first time. But, I mean, maybe we can include oral sex with that. Um, yeah, yeah. So have you received any abuse or abusive behaviour from people because of your sexuality or your spirituality or your gender ID agency? I've had many a debate and many a discussion about [00:21:00] both, Um I think II I love it. I think we need to be open. We need to be able to discuss things freely. No one's got a right to judge anyone else's well view, um, their faith, whatever that happens to be, that's between them and and, you know, their creator. That's not anything for us to judge. And if people don't have a faith, don't believe in in an intelligent design or that the planet was created, that's their right and I respect that. Absolutely. Um and same with with who you're attracted to. [00:21:30] You know, that's not for anyone else to have an input in. I've had some really good discussions on on Facebook. People who are friends with me on Facebook are welcome to go and have a look and, um, add to them, by all means, you know? No, no, nothing. I would call abuse. Only people speaking, I believe, from their heart. OK, And finally, do you have any other comments, or do you want me to ask any questions you want me to ask? I think you've done well, Ben. [00:22:00] Yeah, it's been good. I'm enjoying looking forward to having Japanese lunch with you. Now. This was not a paid presentation. All right. Thank you for the interview. You're welcome, sweetheart. Have a good day. Thank you. God bless you.
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