This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
Prue. We've got, um, a a stack of archival material in front of us. Um, that looks like it's all from sort of the 19 eighties. Can you talk to some of the some of this material? Yeah, There's a lot of yellowing, uh, articles from the newspaper in there. And, uh, I kept a clippings from the campaign plus all the submissions and all that sort of stuff. And, um, I think you wanted to know about the ones I was particularly involved with that that weren't the mainstream ones. I wasn't [00:00:30] as involved as some of the the, uh, the key people that you've already interviewed. Like like and Stone and Alison Laurie, Linda Evans, who founded the main organisations along with some of the men, of course, um, who were most involved. I was, you know, part of those organisations and I went to meetings and so on, but I wasn't I wasn't one of the key people. I didn't deal with Fran director or any of that sort of stuff. That was But you were writing submissions on behalf of some groups, like, [00:01:00] yeah, absolutely. And particularly ones where I had a particular in because I was part of them, like the Association of women Academics at Big, like the Women's Studies Association, which is Countrywide that I was heavily involved in. So I drafted their submissions and made sure they were good ones, and, um, and a little bit different than my own. So they were to repetition. And, um yeah, one thing that I had forgotten about until I looked through this, um, [00:01:30] this pile for an interview I gave on the same subject about 18 months ago. Um, was, uh, that, um I wrote a very indignant letter to the, um Wellington. I think it was Wellington. It might be New Zealand Jewish Council. Um, I'm Jewish, myself and, uh um, liberal Judaism. Progressive Judaism was pretty good about homosexuality. It has out there been raising a lot, but, um, but a lot of the people in in the broader Jewish community are much more conservative. And, [00:02:00] um uh, there was some fuss going on about a young man. I think it was actually who want wanted to or did carry an Israeli flag and a homosexual law reform flag in one of the demos and and, uh, that, um, some objection to him carrying an Israeli flag That would I know not why Whether it was supposed to indicate that Israel was a law reform or what it what it was supposed to do. But anyway, they were sensitive about it. And [00:02:30] I wrote I read the letter again this morning just for amusement and thought that was a good letter. So what? What did you Can you recall what you were saying? I can't recall unless I have a look at it. But it was, uh, yeah, I just started. And I understand that some objections have been raised. The carrying of an Israeli flag by supporters of the proposed HR reform bill at recent March held to show support of the suggested changes. This letter is to argue such objections are misplaced. I write as a Jewish woman and a lesbian who feels that humanitarian values and a belief [00:03:00] in civil liberties is essential to our religion and thus finds it difficult to understand any compassionate Jew being opposed to the law change, irrespective of the discussions of the exact meaning of particular biblical passages. And I went on and on. And what was your response? Oh, yes. Well, that was the That was, uh, dear. He and I acknowledge your letter of 13th of June to the chairman of this council about civil rights. Your comments are noted, OK, not putting themselves on the line there. So [00:03:30] what other things you've got here? I can see it. Um, it looks like it's from the Dominion. From May the 9th, 1985. I wouldn't have known what date it was, but it, uh I remember the occasion very, very well, because, um, it was a, um uh, an article we organised to get in. I can't even remember who we was a group of lesbians anyway. Um, because, of course, with the the 1985 act, I mean, it was part one of the act that got most of the attention, which was decriminalising, [00:04:00] um, homosexual actions for men. And it was obviously the most important thing because it was appalling that that was there. But in in a sense, when I say it was the most important thing, that's doubtful in a way, because part two of the act that gave us both lots of homosexuals and gay men, gay men and lesbians, and I suppose, well, at those days, bisexual and intersex wasn't transgender, wasn't as wasn't as prominent. Um, so it was basically, uh, lesbians and gay men who were [00:04:30] under scrutiny. But the second part of the act was to give us our human rights, which, of course, we now have. But we didn't get get then that part two of the act failed, and I think it that was 85. I think it was 93. Was it on about then that, um, that, uh, the HR C act was, um, Nominate was amended to do that, but, um, lesbians felt that they were virtually ignored. And then during that, a lot of the debate of that year. Even though we were supporting [00:05:00] the gay men like man doing a lot of the work, he cared just as much. Some of us cared more probably, um, and, um and so we decided to get into the Dominion Post a sort of big spread about, um, about that with a preamble which talked about the human rights aspect of the bill that, um, that, uh, mattered as much to lesbians as to gay men, and, um, and the best way to do it was to [00:05:30] with that to, uh, as a preamble to have some profiles of, uh I think it was three. Or it might have been four, lesbian women. And, um, Glenda Gale, who I think you've interviewed was one of them. And And the Lacy, who sadly died something years ago was another. And I was the third. And, um, So there was quite a column in which, um, um extracts from an interview and my history was, uh, was published and, um, under the title [00:06:00] standing up to be counted. And, um So what? What did they talk about? Well, you one or two things that make me cringe when I read it now, which I won't mention. So I probably said would have preferred to present something slightly different, but it was essentially I talked about my coming out. I mean, uh, this is 85. So I was 42 then and I came out in my mid twenties, so I've been out nearly nearly 20 years at that point. And I I came out in England. Um, but was, uh [00:06:30] it was, uh, with a New Zealand friend. And, um, it is how I ended up back out here largely plus the wonderlust and so on. And, um, we both got jobs at Vic and, uh, lived together for five years. And essentially, it tells me it tells my story and my gradual, um, becoming more politicised as a lesbian rather than it just being, um, through sport and through, um, through love and, uh and, [00:07:00] um, and arguing why it's so important. And, um, and saying that I come out as a lesbian to my women's studies classes and, um, so on and, uh, and why it's important to be out and counted for people coming through and for the politics of the whole situation and lesbian feminism. Um, I'm not sure how how far i how intellectual I was about it at the time. But certainly the importance of lesbianism to feminism and vice versa were [00:07:30] part of my thinking. So you recall the day that this actually came out in the paper? Yes, I recall it very well, because it was a Thursday morning Thursday made the night 1985 I see on the on the rather old Xerox copy of the paper, and Thursday mornings once a month were professorial board, um, now called academic board, which had don't know whether it then had all the professors on it. It doesn't anymore. It's changed its constitution, but that that used to meet on at 9. 30 in the morning. I wasn't a professor, but I was a staff rep [00:08:00] or something and was on the board, and it started at 9. 30. But I had a lecture from nine till 9. 50 so I walked in late, and it certainly felt to me as though every eye was on me because everybody read The Dominion Post. I don't know it was true, but it sort of felt a bit like it that morning tea. It was certainly a subject of conversation. You already seen the paper? Um, I can't remember whether I'd seen it, but I knew it was going in that day, so I wasn't surprised. [00:08:30] Do you have any backlash I had Interesting? No, Nothing unpleasant but interesting things with different groups that, um where I. I mean, I was out to everybody, really. But, you know, sometimes you're more out. It's more obvious than others. And I remember the one I particularly remember was my squash club because squash is. I've got plenty of lesbians who play squash. But it's not as lesbian a sport as, for example, cricket. It seems very heavily [00:09:00] lesbian. And, of course, um, Amazon softball and teams and so on. Um and, uh, I remember the next Inter club. Somebody bravely asked me about it, which I was pleased about, and said, you know, and it was the usual stuff around, you know? I mean, it's fine to be lesbian, of course, but why do you have to be so public, you know, so it gives you the end to to explain why it's important. But that wasn't the only time you were in the paper during the year. I've got another photo here that looks like you're at a demonstration [00:09:30] on that photo at the time. I've seen it a lot recently. It's It comes out on, um, on a lot of the websites, and it's from one of the one of the public meetings where we had both sides there being very vehement. And, uh um, I'm next to Tiggy, and we're I'm looking as though I'm screaming and she's looking angry and we're all looking angry. There's a couple of men on either side looking angry and and Trish Mullens in the background. I'm not sure who else is [00:10:00] there, And, uh, it was certainly one of the public meetings. I don't know why. Who took that picture or Oh, David Hindley. It's one of his pictures. He he took a lot of good stuff during the campaign. And do you do you recall any any of those particular meetings? Not anyone more than the other. I mean, I didn't go to as many as some, but I went to a reasonable number and I mean, they were I'm not that sensitive a character, so I didn't get as shaken as some people did. But it was seeing [00:10:30] the hatred from the other side and some people on the other side was a bit upsetting. But not I didn't get incredibly upset. I mean, we just had to try and win the debates, and it wasn't difficult really taking you long. I'm just gonna have a OK. I'll just have a quick look through here. There's most of the supplement about the census where I manage it in. Well, I dragged it in really I. I think it would might have been about, Um, [00:11:00] there was a time. I'm not sure whether it's as much actually to do with the 85 although it's about it's the same now. This is even an earlier one. Actually, this was a few years earlier where, um, we had, uh um, a boycott on the buses and and in the census, we were still we were trying to get marital state, you know, trying to change the marital status questions or the personal questions so that lesbians and gay men could be counted in the census back right back early in 81. So, I, I managed [00:11:30] to put into a Sunday supplement talk. I gave an old programme which, sadly, got abolished, which had 44 little four minute talks on a Sunday morning. And they were practically always the vast majority were left wingers, which is no doubt why it got abolished. Um, doing, uh, doing their thing. And I, uh, I I had a regular spot on that every you know, two or three times a year, and and I managed to to drag him our invisibility and and so so you You have been, [00:12:00] um, quite active politically around, um, lesbian gay rights. Well, before 85 reasonably so probably only from the early eighties. I was a pretty slow learner. I was, um I was more of a in the seventies, and I didn't I wasn't involved with the early stuff around, um, circle or the I was involved in circle in the last few its last few years, but not in the early years or, uh, or even with the, um, club 41 or anything. I went occasionally, but [00:12:30] I wasn't. I was pretty slow. I was very active in sport and very busy at work. And I I was keen. I was, You know, I was left left of gradually getting more feminist and more more lesbian, political rather than just lesbian social, Was it Was it friends who kind of pulled you in on us or just yourself? Sort of. I think, the situation changing, you know, just simply becoming more aware, become, uh, as as, as time went on and, uh, friends as well. Yes. I [00:13:00] mean, most of my friends were was lesbian friends with sports like to start with, some of whom, particularly cricket, Um, and some of them. I mean, there's still cricketer who are pretty closeted. Um, even now, I think, which is quite intriguing, really. And you don't think people need to be. And, um so But some of the cricketers gradually got more political, and I and I mixed. I just got to mix with the broader crowd and got and and generally and we started reading the stuff [00:13:30] and and, you know, it was a process by by the early eighties, I was certainly getting pretty active. And what what are the sort of groups were you involved in besides the academic ones? Well, of course, lesbian radio got going, Um, when, uh, over 30 years now. So that was the mid eighties as well. I wasn't heavily involved. Um, there was a small group at the beginning which included Alison, Linda and Tiggy that we've already mentioned and a few [00:14:00] others from shave Maxine Gunderson, who died. Um, they were the most active at the beginning. And then after a period, Linda and Allison rang. It ran it all on their own. They lived along the road from from here, and I used to do the odd programme, particularly if they were away or something, I would do an odd programme, but, um, so, uh, I was and I always listen to the radio. So, um, there was that, um Oh, I was involved with the bookshop [00:14:30] when that got going. What year was that? God, I'm hopeless about times. Unfortunately, the woman, the woman's bookshop, But, well, not the not the one in Auckland. The one down here, um, which Pleasant and Pauline started and had a shop in Cuba street. And they ran it with a collective. Um, and that was certainly in the in the eighties. Um, but I can't remember what year. Um, and, uh, we had a a collective that helped with some of [00:15:00] the some of the work. And I remember having a, um a weekend collective meeting at this house at one stage where everybody stayed over and, uh, that would that would have been in the mid eighties. So there there was quite a lot going on, and there was there were various different clubs. I can't remember which ones were when, um there was, uh My memory is hopeless about that. So I was, uh I, um I I won't [00:15:30] say that That the lesbian side of lesbian feminism was my most active thing because I was very heavily involved with women and work type stuff. And I mean I. I used to talk about lesbian where lesbians fitted in that as well. So I wrote actual articles about lesbians in census and about, um um and, uh, when Oh, I've written a couple of sort of scholarly articles. More scholarly articles about lesbians, stuff in [00:16:00] in the workforce, so sort of work and social. Were you being proactively approached by media during those years? Not very much as a lesbian, I mean, um, no, I wasn't one of the spokespeople in the way that Tiggy and Linda and Allison and Co were because I and I didn't that reason why I should have been because I wasn't as active as them, But it was always there, and I sort of, um I used to do what I could. Yeah, so? [00:16:30] So, going through this rather large pile, lots of, um, here's a submission on the homosexual law reform bill. That's common Age of consent is a subject there. Decriminalisation. You start out with decriminalisation. Yeah, because this is my my own personal submission supporting the bill in its entirety. And I first argue for the decriminalisation and a similar age of consent because that looked to be [00:17:00] for a time to be a problem. It might be 18 rather than 16 or whatever it was, or even 21. And then, of course, the, um um, this part two of the bill that inclusion sex orientation within coverage, Human Rights Commission And I sort of did the the common things that most people wrote at the beginning about the the reasons for decriminalisation and then I. I went on to my personal viewpoint as a lesbian [00:17:30] myself and as a feminist and as a and as a person of Jewish parentage and as a university teacher and as an economist, I seem to I seem to have a section on each of those. I wouldn't have read it for a long time. That's fantastic. Four long pages type, of course, in those days, by the look of it typed on a on a typewriter, not even a computer back in 85. No mistakes. From what I can see that So [00:18:00] some of the some of the articles you've got here as Well, looks like you've got some letters to the editor here. Um, that appears to be, uh that was using my my being economics and statistical. Um, you know, you always use your your your, uh, anywhere where you've got a comparative advantage to sort of, um because it makes your your arguments even more respectable in inverted commas. And that was about when the people that the [00:18:30] ghastly, um, opposition that had the petition, Of course, you remember that they had a petition opposing decriminalisation, and they completely exaggerated and cheated on the numbers they've got. They, um And they said they had 97% of Hamilton East voters. And, uh, and petition organisers themselves have met that many young people aged 12 to 17 have signed a petition where it's only supposed to be voters. And, [00:19:00] uh, it, um And, uh, a reputable Waikato University survey was done to discredit them, and only 37% of those voting age had signed, So they were they were cheating as well. So this was this was a report to say that, uh, they shouldn't. They shouldn't be listened to for their ridiculously absurdly exaggerated numbers. And, um, and I finished with. It is to be hoped that MP S attempting to evaluate [00:19:30] their electorate opinion will pay more attention to scientific surveys than glossy presentation of questionable petition statistics. Pretentious Post published that I wouldn't I wouldn't have remembered that I had. Were you at Parliament when they presented their Yes, Yes, yes. I can't remember. My memory is not good enough to remember it in detail. But I, I remember the occasion and some of the, uh, celebrations when the [00:20:00] when we actually got the thing passed, which is even better. You do remember that that you're probably the first person I've spoken to actually remember. I remember it very well. I remember it very well, but it was just Where were you? Can you remember? Oh, God, no. I don't think I was in the gallery because it was very crowded. I think I was just milling around outside I. I guess it was a loud chair or something. Yeah, because you've got some other bits [00:20:30] and pieces here. You've got something about a fire at the resource centre. Yes, I Unfortunately, I haven't got the date of that paper. Um, it was and ah, but It's just after the passing of the act because it said it. Quote Julie, I think you've also interviewed. And she was a trustee of the, um of that the, uh the Gay Lesbian Gay Centre that was going in Boycott Street, which they which was [00:21:00] put on fire. And she said attacks on homosexuals could be on the increase as a result of the passing of the act in July. So it must be in the few months after it. And it was certainly a homophobic, homophobic, motivated attack. And, um, I can't remember whether they caught the people that did that. Maybe they didn't try very hard. What have you got here, right? Yes. Tuesday, Thursday, July the 10th. That was a big day, wasn't it? [00:21:30] Come through. There we go. Hard, hard worn victory. Hard won victory. I don't I don't mind getting some credit, but she go, She had to be managed I. I mean, I wasn't heavily involved in it, but I heard a lot about it from the others of, um um about, uh, how she wanted to manage the campaign, you know? And it was a lesbian and gay campaign that she kindly fronted, and she did front it, and she deserves credit for [00:22:00] it. But God, they had to keep her in line. Yeah, OK, that is that. What's this one here? This looks like that's the That's the famous, um, um, thing before it was passed in May 85 that went in all the papers. Um, so with category one and category two in, um, supporting the bill as these people, it's a full page ad, and it went in all the papers, [00:22:30] I think, um, supporting the the bill and, um, advertising in March as well. And giving lesbian lines number and gay switchboards number as well. And that that would have been rare in itself just to have those two numbers in the paper. Yes, that's right. And but if I remember clearly getting signature, actually going around and getting the signatures, I was one of the many people who you know, um, trotted around lesbian and gay gay events. [00:23:00] Um uh, getting people to to sign and, of course, pay some money towards the ad because they was there a fight to get it in the paper. Or I don't think so. I think the Dominion Post is happy to print it if you so you could pay for it. And as you can see there, three columns of We are lesbians and gay men and we support the passage of the bill unamended. And there's six, columns. So about double the numbers of just saying we support the bill [00:23:30] of the passage of the bill unamended. And there were some lesbians and gay men who had to think hard which of the two categories to put themselves in whether they were prepared to be out in the paper. I want to go through that list and see if I know anyone else. And there's a lot of people in in There's a lot of people, um, who are, um, there who are who are I know are not lesbian. I see names like and Beryl Hughes, who were both next to each other, who are both from the, um, women studies [00:24:00] at Vic and, uh, who are straight, and that's fine. But I can I can see one or two names. I can see one or two surprising names. I'd better not give them this public thing of who were lesbian and are lesbian and in part one. But the the interesting story about that is that, um, Marilyn Waring signed in part one. And, of course, she'd left Parliament by now. And, um, she never did come out publicly in Parliament, people talk about her as the [00:24:30] first out lesbian MP. But in actual fact, Marion Steep was the first out lesbian MP. Marilyn was outed while she was in Parliament by truth, but she never actually publicly, um, came out herself, and it was actually Alison, Laurie and myself who got her to sign this in part one. I just remember the occasion. It was out we were out in the hut at some I don't know whether it was a feminist or lesbian event specific, but anyway, we were getting signatures and, um and we got Marilyn to sign [00:25:00] and we said part, uh, category one or category two, and she said, Oh, I suppose like me Category one now and that was probably the first time publicly listed. That was rather good, incredible page to have. I don't know what's going to happen to any of this stuff when I die. I'm 72 and I I've got so many things that are, um, not only mine, but I've got the whole of Pat's papers. [00:25:30] And, uh and I've got Bronwyn Dean, who is an ex partner of mine, who's an out lesbian and involved in all sorts of things I've got. I haven't got her papers. I've got some of her photographs. I've got so many of these things and I worry like mad because I'm not likely to to have anybody much to go through them. I've got a couple of lesbian trustees, but it's really worrying to know what you, whether anybody will want them. Because wouldn't you give them to Well, I mean, they've probably got them all already, really, It's It's [00:26:00] just the interesting part about it's probably things like the that ad in the paper and so on. They would have, you know, it's just my memories of, of of it that make it particularly interesting to me. But obviously the things that I wrote myself, uh, it would be quite nice to go in some archive. And here's Here's a letter you've heard back from the then deputy prime minister. 15. April 1985 and he tried to get an [00:26:30] appointment, and he wouldn't meet. And I knew Jeffrey because he'd been. He'd been a professor of law at Vic and we were on committees together and I was pretty pissed off when he wouldn't see me. I think it looks like he knew that he that you would be pissed off, actually, because he's put a handwritten note. Something about I am a member of the committee. I will see you at some point. Yeah, Yeah, it was. I want to get on your bed. [00:27:00] Here's a little ad for a rally for the bill Friday, the seventh of March. So that was quite a little bit beforehand. Featuring Fran Wild, Rob Campbell, Ros Noon and Alison Laurie, Bill Logan and Mary Barber. The fight is not over. Sponsored by the Wellington Gate Task Force. Yeah, and, uh, and it was on the anniversary of the introduction and International Working Women's Day and the resumption of the debate in Parliament. I can't say I remember the particular rally. I can't remember one from another, but I was probably [00:27:30] there. And so that's That's how these things would have been promoted at the time, though. Would have been flyers. And that's right. I mean, we didn't have social media and we didn't have email, did we? In 85? No, of course we didn't. I'm not even Well, I mean, I I'm intrigued that I don't know what stage I started doing everything on computer, But clearly all these things are just typed on a typewriter. And, uh, I've got draughts of some of my submissions that I changed and all sorts of that sort of thing. Quite fun. [00:28:00] Lots of my handwritten IEG stuff. NCCL National Council for Civil Liberties. I don't know what the hell I was doing with them. Oh, I think I made a speech there. OK, yes, that's right. All that sort of thing. Just see what else we can grab here. Oh, yes, the women's weekly. I've forgotten that one. That's after it's passed, though. Oh, no, that's a little bit different. [00:28:30] It's, um but it was a women's studies association conference. Yes, I remember that. Vaguely. Now, some, um, a conservative woman came to the conference and wrote it up. Um, for the women's weekly. Uh, yeah, this is and it's headed. Actually, her letter to the Women's weekly is headed homosexual [00:29:00] reform and says, I read about AWS a with instead association conference to be held in Hamilton. The topics were to be from the media and marriage to health and housing. I enrolled and was given the programme. I learned the conference, but from the cover I learned the conference will be on feminism, racism and the heterosexual that presumably love worried her. On Saturday, I turned up and listened to what they had to say on lesbianism and racism, and after gathering at a plenary, we were told that some of us were there on false pretences. And would [00:29:30] the women who supported the law reform bills join the group of women standing at the front? That left a third of us still sitting? And, uh, I stood up and said why I was against the bill, although I was prepared to listen to the other side. And then she says, Oh, some of the women told me to leave and they thought they would bodily remove me and and I would be subjected to further abuse. I felt I had not gone along on false pres but been lured to the meeting by false advertising and information. [00:30:00] So I didn't like that that somebody must have pointed out to me because I never read the women's weekly and, um, I managed to get a a reply. Um, printed Beverly Meal Price gives a misleading picture of events at the WS a conference. The major themes were set from the start and well publicised. Papers and workshops and a variety of subjects were welcome, but speakers were asked to ensure their presentations reflected an awareness of the major themes. As a member [00:30:30] of the National Housing Commission, which I was at that stage, I offered a paper on housing. This made reference to the fact that women from different ethnic groups and single women, including lesbians, have varying housing needs. The WS A is an unashamedly feminist organisation as it is clear from its Constitution and aims, uh, supports changes to benefit women, extend civil liberties and accordingly made a submission in favour of the homosexual law reform bill. Attendance of the conference was open to all women. However, only two women, not one third of the 400 or so present, [00:31:00] indicated that they did not support the homosexual law reform and they were not subjected to abuse. So I got be and I see I signed it in senior lecturer in economics, the UW. So it was again this news I my title just to give it a bit more to make sure they published it. I suppose I don't really like doing that, but sometimes you. So what else have [00:31:30] you got here? Got possible resolutions for educational institutions, etcetera, affirming no discrimination against lesbian gay men as students or employees in my own handwriting. Which wasn't as bad then as it is today. Just affirming that it that I wanted to put these to to all the the governing bodies to make it. So There was all this sort of stuff going on behind the scenes that all helped. Yeah. Did you Did you get any, um, [00:32:00] from your colleagues at at Varsity? Were people mostly on board with you that you knew of? Well, I didn't get much flack. I mean, it was quite interesting because I was in the economics department then I. I finished my career in women's general women's studies, but I was in economics for all the years and I ran. I ran the department. I was chair of the department for years. They loved me doing the work, but they didn't respect my academic work because it was all feminist and lesbian. And I got as far as associate professor [00:32:30] with some grudging comments. But, um, but, you know, I always felt that they didn't really think I was a real economist because my what I did my work. So it's kind of the irony really of around, you know, under continuing to undervalue women's work, I guess with, um, even the study of it. So this this collection of papers you've got start going into the nineties and there's a bit of [00:33:00] variation, but there's there's also It's not all in total order. That was the Council for Civil Liberties. That was yeah, don't know what meeting that was, but it says I was speaking. That was before the bill, and they had a, um they had a psychologist and somebody from the law faculty and me on the implications of the bill which affect women, and Bill Logan from the Gay Task Force on [00:33:30] the age of 16 and John Oh, well, they had somebody else, so it was, uh, arguing that age 18 is more reasonable and acceptable. That's bad for the Council of Civil Liberties. Um, that there were five comment. Just can't remember that meeting at all, to be honest, but I obviously spoke at it. Do you remember, um, conversations with other lesbians at the time about it and perhaps having to argue about why you're in support [00:34:00] or I? I don't remember any lesbians being anti there. I mean, there is, I mean, some stuff in the history, and, you know, other people are better than me on on long term lesbian history. But, um um, there are some lesbians who quite perhaps didn't mind being in the closet really? And didn't mind [00:34:30] it being hidden and felt that the the stirring up by the politicos went a bit far. And, um and there was also the stuff, of course, around Butch Fem and and some of older style dykes. And there's nothing wrong with, but as far as I'm concerned, and I know you've done work in that area. But some of us are think of ourselves as fairly androgynous and neither but no. [00:35:00] And, um, I think there were some who felt that some of the lesbian feminists were being disapproving of but and It probably was some element of that. I mean, you always get extremes at any movement, and, uh, and not understanding how difficult it was to be to be a lesbian at all and and have a life at all in the forties, fifties or earlier. And, uh so I think, you know, there may have been some people around who weren't particularly thrilled by [00:35:30] the politic. So, I mean, I guess I guess being able to be under the radar and just sort of be living, um, and and the protests and the action and so on, Perhaps bringing that out into the open, Perhaps people might feel a bit under the microscope. I think there was some of that, but I don't remember getting heavily involved with anybody who was, You know, in that category, I probably didn't know them as much more. More [00:36:00] so certainly. Yeah, but I mean, you know, people talk about who were lesbians in various different places, from school teaching to who earned out, you know. And then And then, of course, we had the wonderful stuff around. Um um the Arthur Armstrong Foundation, Or before it was out, when when Betty and B were the oldest out lesbians around who'd been closeted for quite a long while, and then came miles out [00:36:30] and were out in their eighties. And we're the only only ones then. I mean, now we're loads of us are in our seventies. But back then they were in their eighties and us We were in our fifties or early sixties. And they were They were terrific. Did you know them in the eighties? Did you know I knew that? Well, when the I tell you, I'm no good at dates, I don't I don't Were they around in the in during the law Reform times? When did they die? I can't remember now that there was the They they used to go [00:37:00] to the, um uh, the bar. The restaurant in Oriental Parade. Victoria Club, of course. And, um, I can't remember how they, uh, some I mean, load of the people who are on the trust who knew them better than I did. We'll tell you about that? That's I've got a picture by Betty up there. I'm not sure where it is, but we bought that somewhere. Um, and then we were doing a sale [00:37:30] for the trust. I think of some of their stuff after they both died. But they were lovely women, both of them. And I went to lots of parties where they at. I knew them quite well, but not as well as some of the others. Who who? Uh and, um But it was lovely having having some out women in their eighties because, uh, I mean, in in 10 years time and less than that, I'm 72. I've got loads of friends who are older in their seventies than I am, who are going to be out in our eighties. But the near [00:38:00] legacy is the trust. Oh, absolutely, which supports lesbian radio, supports lilac and supports individual initiatives from lesbian to apply. Yeah, they they do. They were grateful because they had a wonderful time once they found the community. I mean, they had a wonderful time themselves before, but they they loved being in the community. And, um and the community loved them and did a lot for them. And they left a lot of money to the community, which is absolutely great. I I was the neighbour [00:38:30] when I was about 10 or 12 K and they had what was called, um we were We called it the fairy garden. And it was, um, backed onto our property. And I used to go because I was quite into being climbing trees and sort of those sorts of things, and and I would I'd go up and climb trees and and kind of watch these two lovely women pottering around. And I was fascinated by them. And I'd ask my mother about them, and she would call them the sisters. So it wasn't [00:39:00] I'm not sure my mom talked to them, but I'm not. I'm not sure I have to ask her, but, um, it wasn't until it wasn't until I was out and, you know, probably 20 years old and actually met them and realised who they were. Yeah, it's a lovely property that they kept it for quite a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So nice. But like you, like you say, they were the really the the only woman [00:39:30] couple female couple that we all knew we were aware of. I mean, there were loads of others. And, um, Alison Laurie, who knows a lot about the history, knows who the older ones were. you know, but, um I mean, she did all sorts of things, like knock on their own Marsha's door, right? Very many years before. But, um, I wasn't even in New Zealand when I until I was in my mid twenties, and, um and then, [00:40:00] yeah, I didn't Didn't, uh, Didn't get to know people who are that old. And suddenly we're getting that age ourselves. It's getting to be a bit of a shock, Really. It comes around when when you went, you said you went around and gathered up some of the signatures for that four page article. Who were you approaching? People? You knew about it? Or I think I think mainly, uh, we were at I either get lesbian or feminist events, so we were, yes, [00:40:30] it was mainly around place, people we knew or we we thought were likely to if we didn't know. We thought we were likely to be relatively sympathetic, but it wasn't like just going around the pubs. I mean, I feel incredibly admiring of the brave people who used to sell circle around the pubs in the very early days. I wasn't that brave, that that much of a pioneer um, but, uh, you know, you you've [00:41:00] challenged. I mean, you went to the meetings and that you had trouble there, but, um no I. I don't think we, um We tried to get signatures just from anybody. Do you feel there was had a great impact? It's very hard to judge, isn't it? I mean, I think all those things are worth doing. I mean, uh, I'm, um I'm not an expert on whether media advertising generally has as much impact [00:41:30] as all that. I, uh I'm a bit of a sceptic. I take absolutely no notice of any advertising if I possibly can. I Don't look at it. I don't know. I fast forward through it on television, but that was pretty big. That was a pretty big one. Full page ad. And, uh, and I think those big spreads yeah, they do. They do make an impact. I don't know whether how much they change MP S minds. I mean, MP S are supposed to be, you know, just programmed to do what they think will be acceptable to the [00:42:00] majority. Um, so, uh, you if you change minds with that, you hopefully change MP S minds as well to some extent. And and so the the, um the second part of the bill that didn't go through you stayed involved and continuing to campaign around the human rights. The discrimination side of it. Yeah. You'll have heard about some of those actions from all sorts of the other people, like Tiggy, who used to dress as Cynthia [00:42:30] Bag Wash. I'm sure she told you about that. That was absolutely splendid. We, um um yes, I knew her well, very well at one point, and we went to some of those things with her, and, um and, um yeah, we had a great had some fun, but this is all fun as well as serious, some of it. And we had fun around that, and, um, it was, [00:43:00] uh, you know, part getting that act through in the early nineties was very important, and we we certainly were part of those campaigns as well. So, um, you referred earlier to having been interviewed for a master's, um, paper about 18 months ago and that, um, the the person interviewing you, um, wanted to to use the term queer rather [00:43:30] than lesbian identity. Yeah. Yeah, That was an interesting thing. I'm very glad I did that interview. Firstly, I found all my material, and, uh, I knew exactly where it was after 18 months. I pleased about that. So it was easy to find it again for the day. Um, and secondly, it was, um we did. It was a joint interview that Pat and I did with this Masters student, and, um, it turned out to be just 10 days [00:44:00] before she dropped dead, which was, of course, utterly ghastly. And, uh, but it was It was lovely having done that joint interview just beforehand, and I've got a copy of it. So it's the last thing I've got of of the two of us, um, together. But yes, I had quite an argument with her. I'm grateful to her now because of having the interview. But, um, I had quite an argument with the student because of this labelling it, um, it it was her title of the thesis, and I can't remember the title in in detail, but I know it was getting something around [00:44:30] getting queer women's perspectives on the campaign. But, um, when I signed the con, when she came with the consent form. She'd probably put the queer women thing in the email, but I probably hadn't registered it. You know, I just registered the campaign, and when I came to sign the form and she came, I said, No women. Um, it was very much at the time. And for many of us still now lesbians rather than queer women and said, Why are you using that [00:45:00] title? And she went on about how that was her perspective, that she was a younger woman and that's what she called herself and a lot of her friends did, and that she was using some material about from even though it was about that campaign. She was using theoretical perspectives from now that use queer women. And I said, and it turned out that she was only interviewing. It was a smaller project, and I realised she was only interviewing three people, the two of us and in and, [00:45:30] um, I said, Well, the three of us iden as they and an still now as lesbian. So if you're the only people you're using, it doesn't seem appropriate to me. Anyway, we had a fairly heated discussion about it, and, um and I actually qualified my consent for because I I didn't I can't remember what I wrote. But I said I didn't wasn't happy with the title. She then emailed me back and said, Well, she perhaps better not use my material at all because I I qualified to contempt for him and I said, Well, that's a blooming waste of my time. [00:46:00] If you don't use it, I I can't force you to change the title. But I think at a minimum you should have a discussion about this issue within the thesis because it seems to be a very important one. And she agreed to that and sent me what she'd written, which was perfectly OK and and were you able to self identify as lesbian? Oh, yes, Oh yes. In the in the actual thesis, she talked about it, but But it was just, uh it seemed to me that [00:46:30] when she was doing the historical thing, it it seemed odd that she'd used the queer women when we just didn't use that of ourselves at that point at all. II I just find it so ironic that you're talking about homosexual law reform when in those days the term lesbian was actually quite an invisible term. Um, it wasn't around. It wasn't used in media as hard to advertise things. And it was it. It was used within. We called ourselves [00:47:00] lesbian very extensively. And it was lesbian feminist circle. And it was, you know, lesbian as a word had been around. I don't know how long I'm not an expert, but certainly in this campaign, it was the most for for the women, it was the most important. I mean, that was how we labelled ourselves. We talked about lesbian clubs and lesbian radio and lesbian everything, and, um but, uh, we did eight years later, you're arguing for it? Yeah, exactly. And and, I mean, a lot of people are saying that the L word, you know, gets less [00:47:30] and less fashionable, and, um God almighty, everything gets less and less fashion. Even women get less and less fashionable. We suppose you know we're turfs now. I mean, this isn't so much a lesbian. This is This is radical feminists. We're we're turfs. If we you know, we've got to got to take a particular position about the integration of trans women into womanhood. Whatever we feel about it. Um, we're completely Neanderthal and discriminating if we have a more [00:48:00] nuanced analysis of the trans of trans issues. I mean, there I was very unhappy about trans stuff when I when it first started getting going, I'm less. I'm more relaxed about it now. I think people are entitled to do what they like. But I I worry politically about a lot to do with trans issues because I think, um, I think, uh, there's a great deal of concern amongst some lesbians [00:48:30] and feminists that, um, we were trying to break down the binaries. Um, sure, we we are at one end of a sexual orientation continuum where we we would definitely want to have primacy in our lives and always to to women, as Adrian Rich Quote. Good quote says. But, um, and anybody can be anywhere on the continuum And and [00:49:00] intersex is a complex issue for those who who are born with with ambiguous genitalia, which, you know I have a great deal of time for everything Mary Mitchell and Coe have done about intersex. And but But with Trans, one tends to think that what we were arguing for as feminists and as lesbian feminists were that we could dress and do and behave and be and love anybody we liked as we were, [00:49:30] you know? So those are the sort of arguments I tend not to make them very much in public. To be honest, I because I haven't got the courage, uh, some of the times because you just get labelled as being completely biassed and anti trans. I'm not anti trans. I'm not anti anybody who chooses anything for themselves or Trans. I'm not anti gay marriage for those who choose to do it. But I question it politically. I think it's a mistake to say We just want to be like you and, uh [00:50:00] and I think as a result, I think a lot of lesbian politics and some extent gay politics more so lesbian politics has lost its edge. And what what would you say would be the and for you would be the most important things that still need to be addressed? Well, I think young people coming out of the toughest times I know a lot of you do a lot of good work. I'm not heavily involved in it myself, but I try and publicise it. The the bullying in schools are all [00:50:30] the schools out the inside out, the the work in in, um, various ethnic communities in Pacific communities. The all the stuff that, um, is going on, um, to try and make it easier for for young kids coming out, I think that's probably the most important thing of the lot. I mean, there's odds and ends like adoption, and and, um, this is for lesbian. I'm thinking now of lesbians and gay men. I mean, I obviously I'm all in favour of trans [00:51:00] people having their rights, But I'm You can say that without having to accept that that trans politics is non problematic. If for me it is problematic and in terms of legislation that you think needs to be changed Um what? What would be primary for you? Um I'm not sure about legislation. I think, um, [00:51:30] I'm not sure where adoption is on whether it needs to be legislation or whether that couldn't be done just by regulation and and, um, changes of policy. Um, I mean, a lot more is changing attitudes and behaviours than than legislation these days. It seems to me and, uh We've still got a long way to go in in that, I think, um, to all tolerate each other and do more than tolerate each other, respect each other.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags