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Uh, hi. I'm Tale Langley. Um, I'm the registrar at the New Zealand Portrait Gallery, and we're in the, um, mana exhibition that is opening this evening and tell me about the exhibition. The gallery acquired a portrait of, um, Carmen Rue from an artist by the name of Nicollette Page. And, um, we thought we needed to have an exhibition to celebrate, um, receiving this portrait. So we [00:00:30] got in touch with the transgender community to find out what kind of exhibition they wanted. Um, and we ended up with, um, Chanel and Ari Brightwell helping us out with the exhibition, and they came up with this concept of Manu. So they wanted the exhibition to be, um, a celebration of, um, transgender, who were kind of the foundation. The foundation of their definitely. And so what? What were your [00:01:00] roles? Um, I came on after the kind of the concept had been decided on, and I had met with, and I came in then and started helping out. So I've just been support and yeah, helping things happen, research as well. So I've done quite a bit of research. So listening to a lot of the interviews with um, Donna And digging into stuff about Carmen and Chrissie and Georgina as well as some of the contemporary stuff that's going on. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess [00:01:30] we've considered that, um, Chanel and Ari have been leading the direction of the exhibition, and we've been doing the research and the work to support it to happen. So can you describe, uh, some of the objects and items in the exhibition? So, um, this is our wall of Carmen. Um, And in this carmen section, we have, um, a number of things that came from, uh, te Papa. Papa has a really interesting collection [00:02:00] of Carmen's, um, memorabilia. I guess it would be, um, so we have This is really interesting here, which is my We've titled it my last male photograph. Um, because that's what Carmen had titled it. Um, And when she donated, um, her stuff to the museum, she wrote stories on the backs of them of what they were. So everything that te papa has from Carmen is covered in her writing, which is kind of amazing. Um, and we really liked this [00:02:30] object originally when we first started talking about it, we talked about displaying it, um, face in words. So with just the back and the story from Carmen showing, um, but then we had more discussions with various people in the community, and they said, no. She's given it to the museum, um, and wanted it to be told as part of her story. So, um, we have it displayed face out. But also, we've got, um, an image of the back there, which, um, is kind of a an interesting [00:03:00] kind of almost a kind of a, um, statement on the back. And then this very large portrait. Why is this portrait so significant? Well, we we acquired the portrait because Carmen is significant. Um, she's a bold and colourful local character with lots of great stories to tell. And for that us that's really key is that we can use this portrait to tell all sorts of stories. Yeah, and this portrait is going into the permanent collections. That's right. She's, [00:03:30] um, the first transgender portrait in our collection. Um, so she gives us some important diversity. Our collection is, um, we don't have a budget to collect, so it's very opportunistic. So it's really nice to have something so exciting coming into the collection, and it's interesting. You say, um, transgender, because I've heard interviews where Carmen identifies as transsexual and I'm interested in how language has changed over time. How have you navigated that [00:04:00] in the exhibition? That's something that I've noticed a lot in doing this exhibition being of a younger generation in the way that some of the older generation talk is completely different to what I'm used to. So there is a bit of navigating what is correct and what isn't, Um, when in writing the labels, everything went through Chanel, she looked over everything. She actually wrote a great deal of the the labels that are in the exhibition. So that meant that she was making sure that things were OK, according to her, [00:04:30] and she is close to that generation. So that's one of the ways that we tried to make sure that it was all good in that way. It's definitely something that we noticed, um, working on the exhibition, that there's really big differences in how the older generation talk about themselves and think about themselves as well. Think about their identity to, um, somebody younger, like Ari who, um, came in saying I identify as a woman, you know, right at the start. Um, yeah, it's a little more hazy, I think, with some of the older [00:05:00] generation, can you talk about, um, the community response to this? So far So it hasn't opened yet. But I mean, in in doing the research and and getting the objects and and what's the community response been like, uh, it's been very positive and very supportive. Um, kind of almost over too much. Yeah. Everybody wants to get involved, which is wonderful, actually, for us because, um, that's also part of the attraction of this, um, particular portrait. And doing this show was making connections [00:05:30] with a new community. I think everybody that we've talked to is really leaned into being part of it as well. She now especially has been phenomenal. You know, this is so far out of what she usually does, and she's really leaned into doing it. The support, the support she's had, even from her employer, who's the prostitutes collective, um, has been amazing as well. They've allowed her time to come and, um, work on this and be part of things and helped her out with, um Yeah, just everything that they could. So, yeah, [00:06:00] and I'm really pleased with how much of her input has come through in the final product as well. I think that's really great to see. Tell me about, uh, these here from OK, this one. This one's a little bit contentious, actually. Um, so te papa didn't have a lot of information about what this particular, um, thing is, it's a bust of common. Um, Papa have two of these, and I know from photographs that Carmen had [00:06:30] more than two of them. She had, um quite a number of kind of Egyptian themed, um, things. And, um, so this one, I spoke to a few people, and I spoke to Jackie Grant, and she said to me that this one actually came from her cafe originally, um, which was themed and that she had used this bust to paint a mural of in her cafe. Um, but we also know that Carmen herself had several [00:07:00] Egyptian themed cafes. So, um, it could also have come from one of those. Yeah, and above that, we have a pedestrian crossing light. I was Come on it. Yeah, I borrowed from the council which was, um, quite fun talking to them about that. Their traffic guy, um, they also commented to us that they've sent one of these off to a museum in UK. Um, just recently for, um, some sort of display, which is kind of interesting. [00:07:30] And the wall is just full of portraits and photographs. Where did they all come from? Um, uh, there's quite a few of them have come from Scott and Mouse Cocktail Bar, Um, and then Karen Timms, who had a lot of Donna's photos. So she's lent us a great deal of stuff to stick up there as well. Um, and then some of it's to Papa. This is really just a collection from a lot of places. Yeah, Yeah, we kind of put a call out, and we're like, if anyone's got anything, let us know. Yeah, and we also tried [00:08:00] to pick things that we could see in in our portrait. Um, so the portrait that we've got here shows um, Carmen in her apartment in Sydney, with all of her photographs and artefacts, kind of around her in her kind of eclectic, um, aesthetic. And so we wanted to kind of have that coming out of the painting and onto the wall. And also, we've tried to, um, track down some of the items that are actually in the painting and have them here in person. So? So this exhibition is way [00:08:30] more than Carmen. It's It's a whole generation here. Yeah, absolutely. It's way more than Carmen. Um, the the concept was that Carmen is one of the, um, kind of elders of the community who, um, has allowed things to progress to where they are now who held up the community. And so we picked other individuals who also had, um, a similarly influential role, um, in supporting the community in activism or in providing employment in safe places for people. [00:09:00] What about these amazing photo montages from we, um yeah. So te papa has a big collection of these. I think there's somewhere around there's got to be at least 20 of them. We we went over to Papa, um, and had a look through all of them. And we've selected just a tiny handful of them, um, which, um, cover a number of eras and we tried to pick ones that were representative of, um, various eras. [00:09:30] Um and also ones that, um, showed the individuals that were profiling in the show. Um, but they're kind of amazing artefacts of their time. They're kind of a where's where's Waldo of of, um of all the people in the community at the time And, um, events at the time. And yeah, um, also a lot of the locations the the coffee bars and the and the clubs. And speaking of artefacts, is that a pink policeman's head? I see. Yeah, that's [00:10:00] got to be one of the favourite, um, items of the exhibition. So that was the helmet that was gifted to Carmen on her. Was it her 70th birthday? Um, by two policemen that had previously arrested her. So they came. I believe they came up from Christchurch, um, to go to her party and present her with this beautifully decorated helmet as kind of a gesture of reconciliation. And it's it's also got a really interesting inscription in the inside, I guess. Also, in that case, um, is a Carmen [00:10:30] condom packet. Um, with her portrait on it, um, that was given out. I gather at the 70th party. Um, and it has an in a sort of a quote on the inside saying that Carmen credits her long and happy life to safe sex, which is kind of wonderful. So so far we've talked about some of the historic, but but also this contemporary works here as well. Yeah, yeah. So we've got works from Sam Orchard. Uh, Jack Love and [00:11:00] A A created a piece, especially for the exhibition. She was part of coming up with the theme, and her work represents that theme. Um, and Sam talks about sort of 10 years of his experience working with the trans community and what changes still need to happen and what needs to go forward. And I think that's a nice touch to the show is saying, Look how far things have come. But look how far we still need to go and there's a There's a positive note to the what's happened. But then a nice a nice sort of call [00:11:30] to action, I guess. Yeah, in putting this exhibition together, what personally have you got out of it? Um, it's been a really interesting and different exhibition for me to work on, um, in terms of working with some of the artefacts and working with the community and a really nice and supportive community to work with. Everyone's been so lovely. And, you know, I've never had so many Xs at the end of ticks from people that I've never even met. It's wonderful. It's been really nice. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I've met. [00:12:00] I've met some amazing people and I, who I now consider to be good friends, actually. So it's been really great and great for the gallery to connect with a new community. Um and yeah, bring more people in. Alright. As we're walking in the as we walk in the doors, I'm very excited. Um, I love Carmen. From what I've researched and read about her, Um, I really like how the wall is decorated. That looks kind of like Carmen's space [00:12:30] and that it's all, like, cool all the photos. Oh, they're so lovely. Oh, they really I love that. There's collages like Chris collages and little news play for clippings. So can you recognise anyone? Will? Yeah. Uh, Georgina baa Donna Demilo. Jennifer Edwards. Jackie Grant Gypsy. Uh, Chris, did I say her already? Oh, lots of familiar faces. [00:13:00] I wanna try and find Dianne and and and Chanel. I'm sure that they're in here somewhere. I don't know if I'd recognise a younger photo of them, though, but lots of lots of Donna and Carmen and Chrissy. That's cool. And what do you think about Carmen's new portrait? The portrait is amazing. I love how they've included all her background. Like all of the stuff that she had in the background, that's really cool. I love the the portrait of Marilyn Monroe. I saw, I think the the maybe the same postcard that is archived at the Lisbon and Gay Archives. And it was the first thing [00:13:30] I comments that I saw and I opened the box, and it was my first time in the archives. I opened the box and there's this little postcard of Marilyn Monroe and she's written over it. And then I turned it over and on the back she had a lipstick on it, so it was clearly quite special. So that's really cool. It's amazing. It's really cool. So will as an historian, uh, when you see all this these historic on the walls of the gallery, what? What does that make you feel? Ah, I feel real impressed and touched that it's [00:14:00] in a in A in a gallery because it's such important and fantastic history. That's not ever, really. It just not often enough at all. Um, celebrated. And it's so It's such a a vital piece of history and especially given that, like Trans people are so often deprived of their history and that that's such a big part of our oppression, I think, is the denial of our history. So to like, see it being celebrated and in such like, um, in such a detailed way as well, like, I really feel like they've captured a whole lot of facets of it that, um, wouldn't have been captured [00:14:30] if they just had, like, the paintings and a few professional photos. But they've got all the photos of them partying and stuff as well, which is so lovely and like snippets of of the news, prints and stuff. Yeah, I really feel like it all in all, Chris's colleges over there, too. Yeah, I think it's just amazing to see all the friendships laid out as well. Like the people in the photographs clearly love each other a lot, and they're having a lot of fun, and I think that's a really huge part of the story, is that sense of community and and friendship, and they're all living together and, you know, working together. And it's such a tight knit group and [00:15:00] the fact that they're all still friends today, right, is evident of that, too. So, yeah, I think it's really lovely. It's cool and amazing to see Carmen so big as well. I think right, like she's a big personality, so she should be painted big as well. And what about this, um, mask I didn't even know. Is that one of cars? Was it in one of her? Oh, it's in her coffee lounge, and it's a rather than a mask. That's really cool. It's cool to see pieces that would have actually been in a coffee lounge because I've not. There's not much footage or anything of it that I've seen. So that's cool to think that [00:15:30] there's a physical object that was in her her place and you would have seen these Chrissy we panels before you. Yeah, yeah, I've looked at them a lot on They're so beautiful. They're so beautiful. I think the way that Chrissy put them together is so lovely is that I think there's like a real like artistry to them, and I also think that it's like, really she was preserving history and in a way that it wouldn't have been preserved. Perhaps if it was just a bunch of photographs sitting in a stack. And it like, tells to put them together in collage [00:16:00] and tells its own story that the photograph alone doesn't do as well, Right? So that's really lovely. Now what is it like seeing these photographic colleges from the sixties and seventies of of our communities and knowing that there are a whole lot of diverse people coming before us? I just think it's so important. I just feel like for me, this kind of trans history is really what informs my identity. I don't think that II I can't imagine being Trans and not knowing [00:16:30] about these things. I think it's so important because it makes me feel less isolated and it makes me feel like I have a sense of importance because they have a sense of history, and even though I'm not related to any of these people, I'm related to them. I suppose, in the broader sense of, uh, I stand on their shoulders and they're the ones who pave the path for me and sort of see them looking all so beautiful and and and just so happy and joyful is like a really affirming, especially because there's that whole stereotype that back in the day, if you were Trans, you were, you know, locked up or you [00:17:00] were sick and perverted and sad all the time and just crying all the time. And like, obviously that's so not true from these photos, right? So that's a really cool, affirming thing to to see. I think now one of the things over here is a pink policeman's hat, which was given to Carmen from the police officers who used to arrest her. I've seen this A. It's really interesting, especially. It's really interesting, given the, um, obviously the dynamic with the police. Um, I don't know. I have such complex feelings [00:17:30] about our history with the police, and I think that a lot of like, obviously, while there was a lot of friendliness and like, even like like deep friendship between, um women like Carmen and the police, I do still, I am still super critical of the prison industrial complex and all of it all that it represents, regardless of how pink and pretty it looks in in in this. But it's definitely something that I don't know. It's something that I need to think about more, I think, and something that I don't quite understand, but that I want to try and understand, because it's an important part of of the history. [00:18:00] What I find really interesting is that you had two groups of people all Carmen and the police officers, um, almost completely different ends of the spectrum. And yet at the end of their lives or close to the end of their lives, they they actually came together. That's a lovely kind of human story. Yeah, yeah, I think that it's, um, nice that they're able to look past differences. And maybe that the police realised that actually what they were doing, like imprisoning all these queens for doing nothing, you know, criminal. [00:18:30] I mean, obviously it was criminalised, but it it's not, it's not. They weren't doing anything bad. They weren't hurting anyone, is what I'm trying to say. So hopefully I guess I like to think of that as a gesture of someone who realised that, actually, maybe any of that animosity wasn't was misguided. Yeah. What do you think people will will take away from this exhibition? I don't know. I mean, I feel so overwhelmed. I've only stood in here for, like, what, five minutes? I hope that people take away that we have a really important history that just like [00:19:00] that, our history is just as profound as anyone else's history. And that, like our history, is really fun. And actually, the fun in itself is profound and important, you know, like our history doesn't have to necessarily be serious and tragic for it to be something that's important and worth remembering. I hope that people come away with a sense that they see that they, like, especially younger people like me, come away with a sense that they see how vibrant and awesome and, uh, wonderful our past really is. And it's important. It's [00:19:30] just so important. And it's so important for us younger generations to see our history and and recognise that we have a place in our history, Um, that we're not some kind of crazy new phenomenon, um, and that we still continue to fight today for what they fought for us and all the incredible things they did for us back then. Ah, yeah. Tonight we're down at the, uh, New Zealand portrait galley, and we're here for the opening of, uh, which is the, uh, car, uh, car generation. It's fantastic [00:20:00] exhibition. It's gonna be amazing. We looked around. What I've seen on the wall is outstanding. And it's a good way to remember the old days lost but not forgotten. It's fantastic. And so you would have known a lot of those people on the wall. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think they're the ones that made us street wise. I mean, they were our leaders When you look back in the day, Carmen was absolutely fantastic and car in the old Carmen's Coffee lounge, a great place that we used to all frequent on many, many occasions. And, of course, when she opened up the balcony, we all sort of shot up there as well. Great place to be great place to be for younger generations who who [00:20:30] maybe don't have a sense of what it was like back in the sixties and seventies. Can you paint a picture of of Of what it was like for rainbow communities. Uh, it was a lot tougher then. I think, you know, in the in the in the old days, we didn't have the, uh, relaxed and and legal lifestyle that we certainly have now. And it was certainly a, uh, an era where you had to, uh, watch your back, so to speak. And I think that when we look back on those days, um, the community back then was a lot closer. There was more brother and sisterhood there. Everybody looked after each other. Um, I think we've lost that today. And I really believe [00:21:00] that, uh, a lot of the younger generation perhaps need to come and have a look at this exhibition and and go back in time and learned about their and learn about their history and their culture because it's where we all started. And if it wasn't for Carmen, we wouldn't be where we are today. One of the things. One of the lovely things I saw, um, just looking at the exhibition was people making connections between all the people on the wall and just that that interconnectedness. Oh, it's fantastic. It's amazing. You looking up there myself, and people are saying, Oh, my God, There you are. And there you are over there. And that's the sort of thing it was. [00:21:30] And and and for people like Chrissy and Carmen to put these, um, uh, montages together is absolutely fantastic. It's it's captured our history, And it's something that we should never, ever lose sight of is our history. I'm Chanel Chanel, and we're here at the Portrait Gallery. And we're here to, um, honour Carmen and other trans women, um, who have contributed to our community. And, um, we're going to, uh, remember [00:22:00] all those good things that they did The safe spaces they provided, um, the the the the How they paved the way for, for for the future generation. Now, you are very influential in creating this space and this exhibition. Um, can you describe it for me? It's sort of to me, it's a It's a It's a kind of a like a time capsule. You know, it captures the community over the last 40 years, Um, [00:22:30] a snapshot in time, that's what That that's basically what it is. And so both, um, Kayla and Chanel. I mean, you know a lot of these people in the images that are being seen tonight. How does it make you feel when you when you see these people on the wall nostalgic? Yeah, believe that. Like, even though we came a little bit after coming with her, we were actually part of that kind of generation changeover. [00:23:00] And now to be in our age and to look back at all of us, it's just Yeah, you're looking at a picture. You go remember when we used to, You know, those kind of things. It's good. What about you? Well, we we we live in a generation that saw those changes that are come and come and only dreamed of at a time when, uh, things were very conservative views, rest restrictive laws. She rekindled the debate. [00:23:30] Um, and and those issues, um, even at the risk of, uh, her getting into trouble. And, uh, but she was She was what she was. These issues needed to be brought to the forefront, and and and she raised them. And, um, because she raised them it it it brought it to the attention of the public, a very conservative, um, public view. But As the years went by a conservative, their conservative stance on on issues like gay rights and sex work became a more liberal view. [00:24:00] And and it is you can see that today with the homosexual law, reform, marriage, equality and the decriminalisation of sex work. So if Carmen was to look down on us tonight, what do you think she would be thinking? Hard to say that what? That lady Carmen. But I'm sure she would be quite pleased. And, you know, to see how the generation that followed her have progressed and continue what she started. Basically, [00:24:30] she would be she she she she would be very happy. I think she would be. She would be crying because, um, you know, she saw some changes in her time. And, um, I think, um, she would be very pleased and she's not here. So we need to keep telling those stories to keep the community alive. Um, and she's a very important part of that story. Can you tell me a wee bit about the title of this exhibition? Ok, so the exhibition, [00:25:00] uh, the concept for the exhibition is man and of course, is the is the ridge pole in the middle of that that supports the house. In Maori, we use metaphors like you can say when? When? When A when a elder dies, a has fallen in the forest. So with we use that because we used, uh, we we we saw car and Chris and all these ones that contributed to our community as the Po. Or if you translate it into English, the pillars of our community. [00:25:30] So and the is basically Carmen and Chrissie provided safe spaces, and these are spaces where we gather like they do on because we were family. So I thought the would be appropriate for as as as the title, for for this, um, exhibition. Yeah, so Carmen features very heavily in this exhibition, but also, um, there are a whole range of other, um, Wellington icons. [00:26:00] Can you Can you just name them for me? Jackie Grant, for instance, she was around when Carmen Carmen was, um, was first, um, starting her business. And Jackie Jackie was around then And, um, she still continues to to do her work. She's been, um, a member of the Human Rights Committee, and she's also a founding member of the Memorial Trust. We have, uh, Georgina Baer, and we all know her story. So, um, she's she's she's very important, [00:26:30] Chris. She provided a safe space when Carmen left New Zealand. So that followed on. So So So they kind of took over from one another. And Carmen paved the way for for for the next generation to enter political spaces and all these good things they did. Donna de Milo, Donna de Milo. She was lovely. They all contributed in their own way. And for me, particularly with Donna, is sometimes it's not so much what you do. It's your presence that speaks for itself. [00:27:00] You're talking about safe spaces, and I wonder, where are the safe spaces today? Well, like when we come along and see, we've now got like the NC PC for us. Those that still work. This is a safe zone. But a majority of the places around Wellington, um, like certain clubs that save those for us, we, we, we, we we have to acknowledge that there are people like me and Scottie who have been who who [00:27:30] who who need to be acknowledged because they've been around just as long as as Chrissy and they've had several safe spaces. They've had the, um the bamboo, the pound, and they're still providing a safe space with the S and M. So they need to be, um, acknowledged because they're carrying on where where Chrissy left off, you know? And, you know, and I'm very, very proud of Mel and Scottie and they speak. They speak for our community as well, you know? And they they they they were loved by all these girls, [00:28:00] these older girls. Um, Mel? Yeah, because he he you know, he he goes back, too. So but he's still providing a safe space. Even today. One of the things I love about this exhibition is not only the, um, uh, historic and and photographs, but also the contemporary. There's there's some contemporary art as well. Can you tell me about that? Well, this, um well, she she she she has done a piece, Uh, the jack. He's, um he's [00:28:30] done a piece as well. And, um and and and it's all to do with, um uh, the exhibition A, uh, that she she paid to speaks about, um the, um the journey. The journey from from the The Times that the girls were arrested to to kind of like the freedom that people would experience today, thanks to changes in the law. Chanel just finally, What would you want people to take away from this exhibition? [00:29:00] What? How would you want them to feel at the end of this? Well, II, I want them to feel that, um, that that this community, these people that are featured in this community are people that stood up for for them and and and spoke for them and, uh, paved the way, paved the way for for for pave the way for a for a better world, for the for the next generation. You know, um, you know, the all the good things that we that that we enjoy [00:29:30] our freedoms we enjoy today are because of those that have gone before us, and they should be, and they should be honoured and continue to be honoured.
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