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So my work on Gareth's work began last year when I presented at the University of for the Cultural Studies Association of Australasia conference there. And I was talking about a particular uh, exhibition of his called 30 that was on at the New Zealand Film Archive, which is now sound division. So it's changed its name since last year when I started to think about, uh this, uh, this particular sort of performance [00:00:30] of the ideas I've been thinking about with Gareth Gareth work because we're in Wellington and this is where he is. I thought, Why doesn't he come along? And then I thought, Well, why doesn't he just speak? Because it's, you know, wouldn't that be interesting? So what we're doing is trying to stage a discussion, uh, with the curator and the sort of theorist about the kind of work they're doing, So feel free to get involved and join us. So the title of, uh, 30 signals the death of the first person from an AIDS related [00:01:00] illness in in New Zealand 30 years ago. So that's how the name of this exhibition came about. But at the time, Gareth was the curator at large at the New Zealand Film Archive so he could take anything from existing uh, collections of the archive and turn it into any kind of exhibition he wanted. And I believe he did Pets, tricks and treats. And 30 there was one more and the last one was farewell. So looking at farewell and troops overseas around both first World War [00:01:30] and Second World War. So the exhibition was in one room of the archive. So this is walking into the cafe area of the archive and then the next is walking and towards the beginning of the exhibition, and then the next slide is within the exhibition space. So the exhibition was in one room of the archive, had a range of audio visual materials from the eighties and nineties period news reports on HIV AIDS stories of individuals such as Yvonne, who was a young [00:02:00] girl from Australia who moved to New Zealand, uh, videos of dance performances. At a particular point. All the screens would fade to blue and a nod to Derek Ja's 1993 film Blue and a poem would be heard spoken by its author will be who had contributed one of the AIDS quilts, which was displayed in the exhibition and used in the marketing of it. So that first image you saw, um, in this presentation was well, the day before I left for the conference, I was to present it in Australia. I was [00:02:30] invited to the Auckland, New Zealand film, a branch of the New Zealand Film Archive, to talk to Paula Booker, who's the curator up there. And she had taken 30 exhibition, and she'd, uh, shifted and changed it for the Auckland audience. So this is one of the banners that she had in her version of the exhibition. Was this one in your version as well? It was, too. Yeah, so where Watkins had followed the remit of the curator at large by only using existing materials in the collection, [00:03:00] Booker had added new material previously unavailable in the archive, chiefly from Positive Women, a nonprofit group who support women with HIV A. I DS Booker was passionate about these changes, and she told me about having someone close to her die die of AIDS related complications, and it was very recent at the time when she was talking to me about it, she recounted to me how this person was a heterosexual heterosexual woman. And despite a year of experiencing problems with her immune system in Auckland, the the medical fraternity had not thought [00:03:30] thought to test her. For HIV, it was only when she was in the acute unit of the hospital in the last week of her life that the correct diagnosis was made. By then she had full blown out AIDS and she died. So this is like a really powerful story of something that happened to this curator. And so she had chosen to change the exhibition in response to it. So got on the plane, went to Australia to present my exhibition on my piece on on Gareth's, uh, work. But I rewrote it thinking about what Booker was doing in this [00:04:00] recreation of this exhibition. So I argued in my paper a few days later that it was the addition of the narratives of these large, largely heterosexual women that made the exhibitions 30 a queer one. And there's a definition next of, um, following Anna Marie Geo's definition of the term because it had moved away from what had been largely though not exclusively a gay male narrative because that was the material that was in the archive. However, I was left with a feeling of. So what? After that presentation, [00:04:30] I'd made a theoretical point. It was kind of clever, but the paper did little else. So what was interesting to me was the idea. There's such a variation of people that the exhibition was trying to represent and that the two versions of the work had different emphasis. There are some intriguing questions that can be asked about changing an exhibition, which had been developed carefully by one curator by another one and the personal motivations behind this. But at the same conference, I presented that the keynote, uh, one of the keynote speakers was Susan [00:05:00] Striker, and she talked about the tyrannies of minorities within minorities and the complexities of transgender identity formation. When, in her experience growing up in the USA transgender person was disappeared into their new identity when they had gender reassignment surgery, she explored the complexities of this dilemma where, in order to become oneself, one was expected, at least where she was from, to issue family, friends, location and deny one's identity as a transgender person. [00:05:30] So I think it's the next slide. Striker has previously authored a piece claiming that transgender studies is Queer Fairy's evil twin. She's recently established the first transgender studies department in the in the world at University of Arizona. Strikers work on the politics of identity and marginalisation within already marginalised groups chimed with some voices from Auckland, which have recently been raised as challenges to mainstream gay and lesbian identity formation. And I asked myself if Gareth Watkins [00:06:00] was curating materials from the film archive in 30 years time about the contemporary situation. What would that exhibition look like with some of the discourse? Seem as anachronistic as some of the material he showed in in in 30 from the 19 eighties? And just to say, um by transgender, when I use the term, I'm following Jay Pros' notion of the figure who shapes queer theory, constructionist account of gender, the subject who crosses gender boundaries in some way. And this is another [00:06:30] quote from, um Ja Prosser in In relation to the notion of transition transsexuals, Watkins and I have both been following the stories of the petty and vindictive collector from Auckland with interest. They're largely undergraduate students at University of Auckland and interested in discussions of gender queer trends, particularly in a colonial context, which makes it quite interesting under the no pride in prisons Banner. This group, some of whom identify as Trans challenged the Auckland Pride Parade 2015, Inclusion of Correctional Facility [00:07:00] and police staff. Given the terrible human rights record for trans people in New Zealand prisons, a self identified trans woman, um, becoming woman is a term that she uses for herself a Maori term. She's a Maori woman and a lesbian was injured during an altercation with security guards and her arm broken during this protest at the Pride Parade, the social media and mainstream gay, uh, media. And I think I've got some slides. Um, the next one, I think, uh, express [00:07:30] particularly enacted swift retribution on the specifically in the petty and vindictive collective in general, saying they were, uh, fringe. They were bullies, uh, received rape and death threats, admonishments for wrecking a hippy braid and other accusations. So she ended up in a hospital and then the the gay T MS, as they called them. So the A NZ had decorated the ATM S for pride. One of them had paint thrown on it. Everyone assumed it was Emmy, and Emmy was like in in a hospital, you know, with their with their arm broken. [00:08:00] But she was definitely a target for some of the stuff. And it was really interesting because she was the Maori woman. She was the trans woman. She was the lesbian woman, and she was sort of targeted, uh, as the she was the flashpoint for what was going on. So for those involved in the in the protest, uh, pride protest in the so-called um, pink washing debate, these issues of identity and inclusion of minorities, um, and minorities within minorities that have come up in my thinking about and curatorship, uh, they they're literally an issue of life [00:08:30] and death, of poverty and homelessness and suicide are huge issues within transgender communities, for example. And as North American scholar Brian Conrad has recently argued in relation to a discussion he's been having in the US and Canada, um, in an online or archive, he calls against equality, and I think I've got, uh, the next one is Yeah, thanks. Um, the rhetoric, the rhetoric of equality and inclusion could be problematic if it leaves many people silenced by its overly celebratory [00:09:00] and uncritical tone. He also argues there are conservative, conservative and capitalist reasons to include gays and lesbians and, for example, the defence force and the institution of marriage and various legis legislative changes, which support a neoliberal agenda. The suggestion that we've all made, uh, we've all made it to the same place that we all want to achieve the same things leaves many people feeling disenfranchised, invisible or further marginalised. So what has recorded Ryan Conrad, who I've just mentioned? Um, when he did a Wellington talk here and also a interview [00:09:30] on these matters for pride DN dot com, which is his online. We're gonna call it platform because we're not going to call it an archive, and we'll talk about that. It seemed to me that Watkins curatorial practises both in the physical space of the archive and 30 at and pride NZ in the virtual space of the Internet was worthy of further investigation. So it's not to reject a discussion of 30. But since we've got Watkins here, Gareth here, why don't we have a discussion with him? So, [00:10:00] um, I think this actually ties in really nicely, Giles, with notions of labelling and naming and ranking of peoples. And how do you do that? And yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And we're going to talk about the grain of the voice, the importance of actually hearing someone speak for themselves. Um, and the work that that Gareth does. So we're both interested in in these discussions. So first, we're going to play a little bit of audio from ME, which is on, um, which Gareth recorded [00:10:30] for pride NZ. And something that needs to be talked about is the power dynamics that exist within the queer community. Because it's something that doesn't get, um, thought about a lot. Um, trans women are extremely unsafe, like we're hugely subjected to violence. Um, our attempted suicide rate is like 40 to 50%. Um, that's like people like living trans women who have tried to kill ourselves. Obviously, it's [00:11:00] epidemic, and if you're dead already, you can't contribute to the physics of attempted suicide. So it will be much higher than that. Um, and it's violence because, um, when you know when something reaches those proportions within a population, you can't explain it as just, um an individual decision or an individual circumstance because it's a It's a whole population who are being subjected to conditions which are, in my opinion, [00:11:30] incompatible with our survival. And that's why we die. Um, and it needs to be talked about in all kinds of spaces in Maori spaces and queer spaces and, um, spaces for people of colour. And that's kind of what glitch, who he has been this weekend. And so it's been really, um, really good to be able to talk about, um, the stuff with the community here. And I hope that the the community abroad in this country, we can take these discussions away from this space and [00:12:00] into those wider spaces and talk about the violence, which is queen of colour. We're uniquely subjected to that. Our white friends and our white family and the other members of our community, um, maybe won't have direct experience of because it's, um it's something that they probably aren't familiar with, and they're not. They don't experience. Um, I should also say that the interviewer and that was a so it wasn't [00:12:30] I. I didn't have anything to do with the recording. Apart from commissioning the recording. And that was one thing that that that we were going to talk about. Was that that peer interviewing thing where, um, I think it's really important to get people from whatever community to talk to each other? I. I think I could never have got that that information. I don't think I could have, um the and had a long standing relationship. Um, and it was one of those things that it it seems to me it's not [00:13:00] a, um it's a 1 to 1 conversation. It's not a It's not out there in a in a larger kind of group. So let's launch right into a question related to that. Someone does an interview with one other person, and then it's put on the Internet. How do you let people know the implications of where that recording might end up with pride? NZ, for example, I [00:13:30] try with all of the interviewers, so I also do interviewing as well. Um, we have a a release form, and we, um, say right at the start that this is going to be a public document. And if there's anything, um, that they don't want public, don't you know, just don't say it. It's not like an oral history where it's going to be in an archive for 50 years. It's going to be out there in the public, you know, like a week after it's been recorded. So, um, that's one of the the the the basic ideas behind pride NZ Is that the visibility [00:14:00] so that actually it's accessible to anyone anywhere, Um, and the idea that you know, it's these stories that aren't necessarily in mainstream. That should be kind of kind of out there. So, yeah, I think it's, um, in terms of the setting up the interview, it's kind of trying to say, Well, look, you know, go and have a look at the website. See, the the type of material that's there. Um, I think people are a lot more savvy nowadays. I mean, I come from a public radio broadcasting background and, um, [00:14:30] yeah, certainly in the broadcasting background. I mean, people understand that it's going on the radio. Um, nowadays, I think, um, people are a lot more aware of media and a lot more aware of, you know, um, sharing on the internet. Um, although there have been occasions where somebody said something. They've signed the document, the release form, and then come back a month later, saying I didn't I didn't realise that was going to be out there [00:15:00] to say Yeah, yeah. I mean, there is editing and, um, I. I mean, how we try and structure the interview. So we we do the, um, start the recording and say, you know, you realise this is being recorded. It's going to be an open document. Are you OK with that? Do the interview, Um, and then at the end, say is is there anything that you want removed from that? Is there anything you are not comfortable [00:15:30] with? Um, are there things you haven't been asked that you want to be asked those kind of questions? So it's basically just getting confirmation again at the end, saying that they they're happy with it at all to be out there. I think most people are happy. I mean, once they've made the the commitment of actually being recorded, I think they they're happy to kind of talk about whatever. There have been instances with, um, mainly the the the youth recordings, where, um, we've got a a youth interviewer say 18 19 Talking to somebody that's never been recorded [00:16:00] before And some of the stuff that comes out you as an executive producer, I'd be going. Oh, my goodness. You know, actually, we don't really want that out there. It's like, actually the the the whole idea with and is not to, um not to make an environment where it actually hurts the participants. It's basically yeah, you're basically wanting to put the story out there, but you're not wanting to to endanger them. So I just didn't like growing up gay in Danny Burke at all, And it just felt so ostracised from the rest of [00:16:30] the world because Danny Burke is an hour away from Palmerston North and an hour and a half away from Hastings. And so you were pretty much in the middle of fucking nowhere. So, um, would you like to give a tell us more of your experience with a fling or a relationship that you've had one for a fling relationship either to OK, Earlier on this year, I, um I got really sick, but before I got really sick, um, I got this fellow from fielding [00:17:00] and he was very, very nice But he was also very, uh, he wasn't. He was like, how old he was 25 and so I didn't care because he was a traitor. And he was just like, Hey, you wanna hook up? Sure. And so, um, I snuck out for the first time in my life. It's fucking difficult, especially when I'm positioned. I'm like, right next to my parents' bedroom, and they have to all the way around them. And so that happened, and then we pretty much I hopped on his car and, [00:17:30] um, we pretty much just drove to the reserve and we had tea in his car every once in a while. But what happened was like After the first night I met him, I got really sick. Not about the first night, but first night we met and stuff and we talked and he said, Oh, let's be in a relationship. And I was like, OK, it was all happy And but I got really sick. And I was sick for weeks, and it was really bad. I couldn't go to school. And what happened was after, [00:18:00] um after I got better, Um because during the entire time I was sick. I was still like I couldn't move my arm. I couldn't move this half of my body. Um, very much in it at all. But I still snuck out and, you know, had sex with him. Because what do you do? And if I didn't, he would have got mad. And by the time I got, I actually got better and was able to go visit him and his family that he wanted me to. What happened was, uh what happened? That's right. And he told me that he broke up with [00:18:30] me because as I was sick, I had gained too much weight, and he wasn't attracted to me anymore. And I would I hit the roof. I was just like, Fuck! Fuck you! Fuck you! Then fuck off! Go away. Go away! Go away! Go, go, go, go! And then I just, like, slid him to the side that at the end of that story, So, um, what is your definition of virginity? Virginity? Ok, um, my definition of virginity is not the first person you had sex with, because I even I got even though I got a girl pregnant, [00:19:00] I didn't constitute that as my virginity because I wasn't bisexual or straight. Um, I constitute my virginity. It was the first time I had anal sex with a man that wasn't rape. Yeah, So there's what's kind of going on there. Um, so I act as the, um, executive producer. So So we had Ben who went and recorded these interviews, and there was about 70 of them around the North Island. Then [00:19:30] he would give the audio to me, and I and I would just go through and just make sure that there weren't like, if there were full names, I would take out the full name and put just, you know, first name or no name, um, or if there was stuff that really had, um, that put the interviewee in trouble. II. I would kind of remove that as well, but But then you'd want to kind of keep the, you know, the honesty. I mean, that's the That's the thing about those those kind of recordings. And you said there when you heard that [00:20:00] you were thinking there are other questions to unpack. So one of them is about the fact that he was really sick. And then there was the power dynamic, you know, being pressured into sex. And then there was the last comment about, you know, um, rape not being classed as, you know, the virgin. And so is that the same recording as as on the website or with all that content, which is quite quite a lot going on. I mean, the thing I have done for these examples is I've actually made them just a wee bit more concise. And so, [00:20:30] um I mean, there's a there's a wee bit more material around that, but yeah, and this one's from the beyond Rainbows. No, this is from Q 12, which was a series of 70 interviews around the North Island. And we did a similar thing with the South Island, but only got around about about 30 interviews. And why is that one called Q 12? Sorry, it was, um, 2012, and we were kind of using the word queer at the time. But we've moved away from using the word queer because, um, [00:21:00] it seems to be less inclusive than rainbow. So we're using rainbow now as as a more kind of inclusive term. But, um, it's it's very hard because There are so many different terms around sexuality and gender to actually work out. You know, if you just want to talk, you know, in an overall sense, it's very hard to find a particular word or an acronym. Um, so rainbow seems to be kind of less problematic. Yeah. What we find that queer is is is quite, um is [00:21:30] more politically charged, I think. Yeah. So that brings us to the issue of labelling and labelling on pride NZ you tag? Can you tell us about how you choose tags? So the names that you use and the words that you use Well, one of the the issues with audio online is that, um it's it's, uh it's really unsearchable in terms of like Google. So, um, at the moment, there's a very brief description about each audio interview. Might [00:22:00] be one or two sentences, but then, as as I kind of post produce the material, I'm just tagging, um, you know, whether it's about, you know, the the the basically, the tags are thinking in line of as a user. How would you, you know, is this of interest to a particular user group? So, like I mean, even if somebody didn't kind of identify themselves as gay, I would tag it as gay because it might be of interest to gay people. Um, and that's quite interesting, because yeah, [00:22:30] it's from the user's point of view. And it's also from Google's point of view. You basically want to make the the information, um, searchable. Um, so the next best best best thing to a transcript is is tags, I guess. Yeah. So how do you decide to focus? You've got this very wide umbrella, Rainbow Communities, and you've got terms like Beyond Rainbows. Can you tell us a bit about beyond Rainbows Project? Yeah. The Beyond Rainbows was a, um, project. [00:23:00] Um, one of the, uh, contract interviewers, uh, was very interested in looking at minorities within minorities. So, minorities, uh, it could be, um, religion. It could be, um, mental health. It could be, um, alcohol. Use all those, you know, a whole variety of things. And just how do people, um, fit in to a minority if they are feeling a bit different? Um, so, um and and that those stories [00:23:30] aren't really told that often. Um and so Griz started doing that a couple of years ago, and it's kind of expanded. So I think we've got about 30 different stories now on a whole range of, of, of different, um, kind of aspects of minority. Um, and I just love it. It comes back to that peer interviewing where, as a white male, I couldn't get that material. But actually, um, getting, um, interviewers within those communities to interview each other is actually really [00:24:00] is really good. And just because they are, people ask different questions. You know that that they have different points of view and it's like, Well, actually, you know, I. I don't want to hear my point of view or my questions all the time. So how do you decide to focus? We talked a little bit about funding. Yeah, so focus. Like with with pride. And it is, um, it's basically trying to capture a really diverse range of voices and experiences. Um, but often if [00:24:30] you go for grants, so at the moment, a lot of it's just personal, Personally funded, it's not through grants or through an organisation. Um, if it is a grant, you generally have to, um, align your project with whatever the the funding. So, like, I mean in the beyond rainbows we did more youth interviewing because actually, that's where the money is. Um, but actually, I, I would suggest that there's probably, you know, so many untapped stories in the middle aged to older age group of Rainbow communities that [00:25:00] that. But that's not very attractive in terms of funding. So that OK, I tried to collect those stories, and it's hard to get. It's It's really hard. It's it's so hard. And, um, I mean, there should be funding for youth projects. Um, but then there also Also, there should also be funding for middle aged and older projects. Um, I don't think people stop having issues once they hit 25. Speaking of it, should we play either Donna or Ruth Now? [00:25:30] I think Donna would be great. Dana was a contemporary of Carmen. If you're different, you don't go near a policeman because they're God unto themselves. You know, there's one here that used to arrest me nearly every night of the week, you know, take me to the cells and make me dress and undress for every person that worked there and then to make it his business. I'd fall asleep to wait till the next lot came on, and he'd make me wake me up and make me do it all over again. And there was nothing I could do [00:26:00] about it. No matter how I protested, there was nothing I could do about it. He was God. You couldn't if you they he'd say, um, get in the car And I'd say, But I've done nothing wrong. He'd say, Get in the car. I'd say I've done nothing wrong. If you don't get in the car, I'll have you up for for hampering a policeman in his line of duty. So get in the car and he'd make his drivers because he always you had underlings with them and they'd be the ones that he'd make. Arrest me, not him. And he'd make the guy speed off. And, of course, we're talking [00:26:30] sixties, you know, 63 456. And there was no seat belts, and he'd tear make him tear around at 80 miles an hour around the streets. And I hated speed. And he he knew your Achilles' heels, you see, And he knew I hated speed. Unless I'm in charge of it, and I can control it. And he'd be abusing me, calling me a shirt lifter, which I didn't even know what it meant. A poo pusher and calling me names. And does your mother know you're a fucking freak and you know, and you fuck ass and I, I don't do that sort of thing. You know, All [00:27:00] this used to really upset me, and then he'd make him pull into an alleyway and turn on the lights. Of course, it's dark in there and I turn on the inside light and you can see yourself in the in the window of the car and he'd push my face and and push it and push it and push it into the window until I said, fuck off or pig or something. Go Gotcha! In a recent arrested arrested, you know, that's what they called you. It rest the [00:27:30] She's pretty amazing, like, yeah, I mean, there's nothing like that kind of first hand narrative, you know, like you were talking about. You know, those those those narratives, those voices, that stories are that that aren't told. Um, you mentioned she was a contemporary of Carmen, but not everyone will know who Carmen is here. Ok? Yes. So, um, Carmen was a, um transgender, uh, proprietor of a a, um, a bar and a nightclub and a brothel in Wellington [00:28:00] and was a real, um, really amazing kind of business woman and was, um, very staunch on, um, human rights. And, uh, was a a real advocate for a lot of kind of minority groups. Um, who passed away about four or five years ago? Yeah. Um, so, Carmen, sort of nearly like the glamorous public side of some of these stories. And like what was really going on for a lot of people, you know, I don't know. Carmen [00:28:30] told stories like this about this kind of experience. Well, it's interesting, because I did a documentary for Public radio on Carmen featuring Donna and Carmen's interviews in the archive were all very, um, kind of light. She was saying, Even though she went to prison, she had a great time because, you know, the superintendent made her make coffee and, you know, take care of everything. And, um, it was always it was it never went into that kind of darkness that Donna goes into. And it was really nice to put Dana next to in the in the documentary [00:29:00] so that you could actually hear. Well, actually, there was a hell of a lot of darkness in there. Um, and yeah, I think Dana expresses it pretty well. Yeah, so we'll start to wrap up a little. Now, I think, um, the final question I want to ask before we play a little bit of Ruth and get some audience response is is pride NZ dot com an archive. I think as soon as you say archive, then it sets up all these expectations that it's going to be there forever. And as a, um, something [00:29:30] that's personally funded. Um, that's just not That's not the case, you know, like I mean, when I go, it will kind of go in its form. It's more. It's something before an archive. So it works in alongside something like the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. So it's more a creator of content. It captures stories and it puts them out there, and the whole idea of visibility is really important. So basically it it's a it's a capturing device, it's a platform. And then then we'll move [00:30:00] those into an archive. At some point, an archive is there to basically keep them there forever. Um, so no, it's not. It's not an archive at all, although I mean in its in its state now it is in some ways because, I mean, people can go and search it and you know, it's accessible. And and you've talked about to me about, uh, high quality MP3 audio. And your hope, really, is that people can download it, take it away, do other things with it, and is that right? Or you hope they won't do [00:30:30] other things with it? What are the risks of this kind of platform? I mean, I think the reason for having the high quality MP threes available online is, um, knowing that they will be archived somewhere. So it's not kind of putting all your eggs in one basket saying, Hey, here's an archive in New Zealand that will hold on to this material. It's saying, Well, at the moment, the materials all publicly accessible. Um, if somebody was to download those MP threes and store them in Germany or California, um, I wouldn't have an issue [00:31:00] with that, and I know that in 100 years time, they will exist somewhere. It might be dispersed around the world somewhere, but actually, they will exist. Um, hopefully they won't just be these orphan files. I mean, they'll have some context around them, hopefully, but, um, yeah, Do you have a framework in terms of Creative Commons or some other kind of, you know, um, copyright or licencing kind of framework that you've entered into, And it's interesting. I mean, I mean, I would be I would hope that if somebody wanted to use the material, they would come back to me and say, [00:31:30] Can we use this material? Because all the all the recordings I mean, it's set up as a nonprofit so that actually people record knowing that they're basically putting it out there in public. Um, nobody's going to make any money from it, and it's going to be there for, you know, the greater good. Um, nobody at the stage has come to me and said, I want to use this material in the book or in another way. I think if that was the case, I would then go back to the interviewees and say, you know, is that is that cool? Um, but because it's it [00:32:00] was established in 2009, so it's still very early, and I think those kind of conversations will happen in the next few years. And finally, that that notion that you raised with me the right to be forgotten might might arise in a digital archive. So someone at a young they're quite young. They're happy to have their stuff and be transitioning. But at some future point, I think you've had someone come to you and say, Actually, I want that taken down now. Yeah, or or even just their name removed because there was [00:32:30] a young Trans person that was happy to talk three years ago, has transitioned now and actually is passing. They want to not be associated with that recording. And I find that really interesting in terms of digital media, digital archiving, being different from other and particularly young users putting themselves out there online and not really thinking, perhaps that at some point I might want that removed or I might want that to be forgotten. And what are the implications of that? So we'll [00:33:00] play one short final piece of audio. We're hoping you might respond to it. So have a real listen to them because it's it's quite something. And now I was thinking when I was listening to this about Siobhan M, who's a radio scholar from Australia, and she talks about, uh, the grain of the voice and how important hearing the grain of the voice is and that's that's from. And he uses it in slightly different context to but nevertheless, close your eyes and have a listen. I have a cousin [00:33:30] that I found that we didn't know had lived through the war, right? I mean, everybody got separated and things, and he was with them at Auschwitz as a teenager and he lived, you know, because they weren't rounded up till June 44. And so if you were lucky and you, you know, then you could maybe live. It was only a year more, and he did, and, [00:34:00] uh, he had been there and I couldn't believe it. I did this except for one phone call I had with him. It was all via the net, and it would be at work. I didn't have a home computer then, and I would be a wash with feelings and stumbling next door. But he he told the story about the because I don't know anything [00:34:30] about my paternal grandmother, and he he'd known her. He was a teenager, so I asked him questions. You know, what would they have thought of a lesbian granddaughter? What do you think? You know, like, I carried their MIT at her mitochondrial genes. You know, I had no idea anything about her, but he did know. And he said to me, Firstly, I found [00:35:00] it so moving, uh, that these Jewish men, they spoke Yiddish, and they came on to the train cars when they got to Auschwitz, and they said to them, which was my family, Uh, give the Children to the old women. And it was, of course, because they were going to kill the Children. They were going to kill the old women. So the only chance that the young mothers had was [00:35:30] to give the Children to the old women. I mean, it's so obvious they were helping them. Couldn't you get angry? The times I wanted to pick up a Anyway. He said the last time he saw my grandmother, she was surrounded by all of her grandchildren. I was already alive [00:36:00] in the Bronx. I am one of her grandchildren. It fell to me to tell their story because they were no buddies. They had no money. They weren't rich. They weren't Rothschilds. They never went to school. They were people. And they certainly didn't deserve summary executions. I became a lawyer. [00:36:30] I fought for justice.
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