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Well, the sun was located in Wakefield Street opposite town Hall. Um, it's now a hotel. But it was upstairs, um, next to the Scripture bookshop and below was a Chinese restaurant. I started going when I first arrived in Wellington in the Sydney five from Christchurch. And [00:00:30] I ended up being employed there as a full time day worker, which met in and, um, been on the desk and, you know, things that it entails. Um, and it was actually owned by two. Let's say straight, guys, um and they ran it, um, and ran it very well, actually, um, for some years. And then later on, [00:01:00] they sold it to the, um let's say the out empire in Auckland. Um, Brit Shepherd and Tony Kavi. Yeah. So we're talking the mid seventies. How did a gay sex on site venue, um, kind of operate because this is pre homosexual law reform. So was everything, like, on the down low, or how did it operate? Um, well, you paid you went in, uh, or the security door you [00:01:30] went through, which is locked. You couldn't just barge away. And, um, you basically had a locker where you took your clothes off and got a towel. Um, and, um there were cubicles, uh, for privacy there. Although they weren't didn't have doors on it. Just had tea in shower curtains in those days. Um, there was a a spa pool, and there was a dry [00:02:00] sauna, and there was some large rooms that were reasonably dark. But in those days, it was pretty well lit. It wasn't that dark. Except maybe the cubicle areas, uh, were a bit darker. It wasn't until it was sold to the out empire, Which things really changed with the lighting and the, um they made it a lot more Cruz and darker [00:02:30] and yeah, gay. If you had walked in in the early days, you wouldn't really know it was a gay sauna so much. Whereas it changed very much when out Empire bought it. Um, yeah. So in those very early days, it was still a gay sauna. But if you knew, you knew. And if you didn't, you didn't? Yeah, I guess so, Yeah. Was it? I mean, was it actually advertised as such? Or it was just people who were in the know to tell the truth. [00:03:00] I can't remember. I think it was more in the know. Um, I'm pretty sure it would have been on some of the gay literature international stuff, though. Circuits. But, um, how did you come across it? Um, I honestly can't remember how I first stumbled on it. Um, I just remember being there. Really? I must have been told by someone. Yeah, in terms of, uh, kind [00:03:30] of clientele coming to the premises. Because again, as I say, this is pre law reform. So were people openly talking about going to the sauna? Or was it one of these kind of undercover depends? There were a lot of the clientele during the day were, um, men who were in marriages who would come along during the day. And if you saw in the street. I mean, I just had this policy that I wouldn't say hello until someone else had acknowledged me. [00:04:00] I didn't want to upset the cart wheel, you know, Um, but, um, I tend to say hello to most people, even strangers when I'm cleaning the car or something in the street, you know? But, um, it was a bit underground then. Yeah, um, but if you were, um, in out gay circles. Of course you talked about it. Yeah. Yeah. The the noise [00:04:30] we're hearing in the background is Wellington's wind. It's like a very windy day. One day, one day. Yeah. So what about the police? Did the police ever kind of, um, hassle this sort of, um I worked at the sauna. I had two, times in my work there where I worked. And then I left and I came back, and during the time I left, it was raided. But the time [00:05:00] I was there, I can't remember it being, um any problems with the place? Yeah. Um, I never really talked to the owners. Then about what relationship they had with the police. Um, I'm sure they would have, but I don't quite know what that was. Yeah, it's It's a really interesting, um, kind [00:05:30] of situation. I guess the way that you're describing the first owners and that the sauna wasn't necessarily known as a gay cruising spot. I imagine there could have been quite a few misunderstandings for for for for, like, straight clientele or or was it Was it more kind of known than that? Um I think it was more known than that personally. I mean, you had to come upstairs to get there. It wasn't like it was right off the street. Um, [00:06:00] as it is now, with places like checkmate, which are right on the street where you've got to walk down a corridor. But you would have to pretty well, much know, I think because it was quite a flight of stairs to get there, Then you got to a landing, and there was either Scripture union or the sauna. And if you manage to get there and bomber Stoke, Um, yeah, I'm I'm [00:06:30] I'm sure it must have happened, but generally, you know, you you you would tell people, you know, if they were looking a little bit the world, I suppose. Yeah. In Scripture union. Um, So what is that? It was a Christian bookshop that we shared the same landing with on the first floor. And the relationship was, um yeah, I don't think they liked us very much. Um, it was quite bizarre. Really? [00:07:00] Yeah. He used to get some pretty, um, you know, lots of daggers, stairs, and that from one of the one of the women in particular who was a more senior woman who worked there. The manager there seemed too bad. Um, but yeah, it was It was pretty pretty tense at times. Yeah, the the actually, the other relationship we had with the restaurant downstairs. Which, um, it's the thing about a sauna. You never [00:07:30] You always try and get a ground floor with a sauna. You'll notice that, Chet, mate. And when it was the Wakefield before checkmate bought it, it's on the ground floor. And there's a good reason for that because water does travel. And many a time. I remember being called downstairs to the Chinese restaurant because there was water dripping in their S from a sparkle. Yeah. So, um, one [00:08:00] of those funny things that happened and yeah, water finds its own level. Um, can you go back to, uh, describing, um the kind of interior of of the sauna, I guess, um, pre, uh, the empire. The empire. So the first time you were working there? What? What kind of, um, decor. It's pretty bright. Um, from memory. It was, you know, pretty cream. [00:08:30] Um, they used to close it for two weeks every Christmas and actually paint everything and take all the water out of the son and redo it, so it was very, very well maintained. Um, that did change when the Empire bought it. It seemed to just always be open. And as things broke down, they would get fixed. Well, usually. But, um, it was very bright with light and very light with [00:09:00] colour. Um, And it wasn't that Cruz, uh, although things still happen there, but yeah, uh, a lot of the more common areas. And there was a reading area, if I remember, um, which obviously had to have light to read. But, um, it was a lot lighter and brighter. Yeah. When I'm thinking of sauna sea nowadays, we you know, we're talking about, [00:09:30] um, uh, kind of glory holes, dark areas, um, porn, um, apparatus? Uh, none of that. No, there was none of that. It was just a dry sauna. The spa pool. And there were was a back corridor with, like I said, cubicles. Just I think they had yellow, um, shower curtains on. Or that's what I remember. Maybe it wasn't that they were. They were just tea. Shower curtains on them. [00:10:00] Yeah. And what about when the empire took over How did it change? I. I think the first thing I remember was they put, um, shiny, reflective sort of, um, uh, plastic sort of paper all across the ceiling and stapled it up there. Um, and they put drop lights and black like long sort of black tins, or most of the cast lights down. And there were red lights. Um, there are I remember, [00:10:30] um Ah, yeah, Every everything got sort of painted black, and, um, the lights were completely dimmed. Um, so it became a lot crazier. Sleazier, crazier, um, which in some ways, it was good. In some ways, it was terrible. Was it it, Um, And they never closed to redo it. Um, like [00:11:00] the previous owners did over Christmas so that that wasn't sort of built in? Yeah. Were there other, um, six On-site venues in Wellington at the time? I'm trying to think when the, um, that gay cinema started in Dickson Street. I can't remember what year that started. Um, that had two cinemas there, one sort of straight and one sort of gay. And I think a lot of bits and pieces happened in the dark, I imagine. [00:11:30] But it was it wasn't. Yeah. So what was it like for you, uh, working in a gay sex on site venue? Had had you done that before? No, no, God, no. I sort of stumbled into the job. Um, the two guys I worked for were really good. Um, I worked there a couple of years, and then I remember giving them are quite a few months notice. And but she came and saw me in the holidays and offered [00:12:00] me, um this was unbeknown to me. It was obviously the out empire approached him to sell, and they were going to sell, and they offered me, um, for the next year or no. Next six months before the trend before the sale happened. They, um They said you're hopeless at savings, so we're gonna put $50 a week into your savings into a savings account, which you won't be able to touch until a year's time [00:12:30] or something like that, Which was brilliant. So, um and then, um, when the out empire bought it, I became manager for a while, and I stayed there. I think it might have been six months or a year, but that was it. Really Yeah. Um, what was the question again? You were asking me what it was like working there. Yeah, Um, the guys I worked for were great. They were They were really nice guys. Um um, pretty straight [00:13:00] up I. I had a lot of loyalty for them because they were really good to me. Um, they keep the place clean, well maintained, um, and they would just had a really good business sense. Yeah, I was I was, um yeah. Treated really well, So I I enjoyed working there. Yeah, it was good. And like I said, I I can't remember ever having any trouble with the police while I worked there. [00:13:30] Um and also it was, um II. I, um, had come up from Christchurch, um, where I'd left a apprenticeship and carpentry joinery because that's what I didn't know what to do unless school said dad said, Oh, become a carpenter. Boy, You know you won't go wrong there, but, um I, I guess, you know, realising that I was gay and wanting to do something a bit different. Um, [00:14:00] I sort of met someone in Christchurch, came up here, and it wasn't long after that that I ended up working at the sauna, so it was a real change for me. It was, um, freedom. I was meeting nice people, women and men. I've still got a good one of my best friends would be the friend I met about that time. She's still in my life, you know, a really good friend. In fact, I'm seeing her today with her daughter, who I've helped raise. [00:14:30] And she's 29 and buying her first car. So that's where we're heading. Yeah, but, um, it was a great place to work. Yeah. Yeah, because I made a lot of friends there, which, of course, led on to, um, the whole movement. Gay movement. Um, homosexual law reform. You know, um, so a lot of people I met and worked there were, in fact, gay activists Neil Anderson, Mark [00:15:00] McKenna, um, Neil Costello, Rob Lake. They all had their, um, part time work there. So, I, I, um, mixed in those sort of circles. And when I bought my first house on my own, um um, David Henley was one of my flatmates, and John Woolley and, um those other people would congregate because we're all sort of friends um, I [00:15:30] was more on the fringe or I didn't see myself as a gay activist, but I ended up on marches, and I ended up on Pink Triangle with my boyfriend at the time. But we were wearing masks, so you never know it was me, you know, one of the Mardi Gras type masks, I think. Yeah, I think it was for the devotion. One of the devotion dancers. Yeah. Yeah, but, um, yeah, it was a good place to work. Yeah, social. Very social for me. Yeah. One of the really hard things I find is in 2018, [00:16:00] looking back and trying to imagine what it must have been like in the late seventies, early eighties, where you did have this kind of groundswell of political activism. Can you paint a picture for me of of the kind of feeling at the time that what period of seventies or eighties? Late seventies early eighties. Well, it was a it was, um you you knew that if you're in bed with someone, a guy, you know, you [00:16:30] you know, the the door could be broken down basically at any stage, and, um, that not that you'd dwelt on it, but it was always there. Um, so it was a lot more publicly publicly probably frowned upon after the law reform. Um, it seemed to give more of a tick to it generally. And, um, I think that really helped. Um [00:17:00] I just remember, um, being with her boyfriend in the eighties and how that felt before and after law reform. And there was a difference. I remember. I remember the night the law reform went through, and I was at parliament, but I pop popped over to get some fish and chips because I was starving. And when I got back, it had gone through. I missed it. Um, so it felt different going home that night. I actually thought, this is This is [00:17:30] neat. You know, this is really neat. It did feel quite different. Yeah, was there is a sense of anticipation that things were changing because, I mean, for so many years prior to that, things hadn't really kind of moved forward. Well, yeah, I mean, I, I actually I actually think the whole, um, aids epidemic in many ways helped that cause because it aired the whole issue. There was such a negative response [00:18:00] from the anti the Salvation Army and fundamentalist groups out there. And it was just vicious. Um, and just getting that to the public, the presentation of the anti, um, signatures to parliament, The Nuremberg rally we call it was over the top. And that sort of backfired on them, I think. [00:18:30] But yeah, You, um, mentioned AIDS, and I'm wondering, um, that kind of came out in the early eighties. It was being into kind of public consciousness. And just a little bit later, in New Zealand, when did you first hear about AIDS? And and can you recall what that was? Yeah. Um, I'm sure I must have heard it pre 84 a wee bit, but it never really [00:19:00] hit home until I came back. I was in Sydney visiting my sister in 1984. I think it was maybe in the winter and the day I got back, I was visiting some friends on the buses. I used to drive buses, and, um um, up to about 84. I was driving in Sydney 9 84 and and I went to visit them, and they had a Time magazine there and it was. The whole cover was AIDS. And it hit me like a [00:19:30] sledge hammer because, um, I've been in Sydney for 18 days and had a bit of fun. Um, it was pretty restrained, actually. Um, but I, um I came back, and that's when it really hit home. I thought, Oh, my goodness. Yeah, yeah. Um, so that's when it really hit home for me. Yeah. 1984. Yeah. Yeah. Was was where it hit. Yeah. Um, [00:20:00] yeah. Can you recall what the, um feeling was like in the gay community in Wellington? Oh, it's really scary. Um, from what I remember, um, I mean, they were sitting up. I think I've joined the aid support network to we. We were expecting lots and lots of cases coming back from overseas. Um, and [00:20:30] we sort of there was home help in all different areas of that, um, looking after people. So we were thinking what's going to happen? How we're going to help them? Um, you just didn't know much about the, um, virus itself because you didn't know how it's transmitted. Yeah, how easy it was to catch. Um, I just remember people talking about toilet seats and, you know, um, washing toilet seats [00:21:00] after anyone who was HIV positive or that, you know, they didn't really know what whether what HIV positive and full blown aids was or we didn't you know, to start with. Anyway, it was all it was all new. Yeah, it was scary. I mean, it's like, if you imagine in early, later times the bird flu and all that sort of thing you just didn't know it was and not known is quite scary, you know? Yeah, it was very scary. Do you think it, [00:21:30] um, changed people's sexual behaviours in in those early days? Oh, yeah, it did. It did. Because you learned how to love rubber. Basically, and that was really hard. It was a really hard learning experience trying to use condoms and like, condoms because they're hideous things. Yeah. Um, but, um, yeah, it was certainly a learning experience for those who got through it a lot. Didn't you know? Yeah. [00:22:00] It also brought out the good in the community. And I'm thinking of of, you know, there are a number of, um, kind of high high profile activists that actually really stepped up. Yeah. Um people like Bruce Burnett. Um, in Wellington, I guess. Paul Parkinson and Bill Logan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, it was It was, um there was sort of heroes out there, I guess. Um, and I remember [00:22:30] hearing Alison Laurie talk, and she was fantastic. Um, yeah, um, just hearing the top twins sing even, you know, having sort of people like that and Lloyd Scott getting up on the stage and talking. Um, so was this during the Was it the bigger busters rally in? Was it 85? That would be probably about right from memory. The old town, the old Town hall year year. Uh, it was great to have, [00:23:00] uh, those people, uh, standing up in front of everyone because it was a different time. It's different than now. So how was AIDS and homosexual law reform and how how did that kind of intertwine? What were the Because it was happening at the same time, I think, I think, because it I think because publicly, it sort of air it so much. And everyone had an opinion. It was like the 81 to you, either for or against it. And it was a bit like that, uh, [00:23:30] you had people who were against it collecting signatures, little old ladies collecting signatures on card tables outside the supermarkets in Newtown and things like that. And I mean, they had no idea what they were doing. They had, I mean, and some of the, um, gay activists and, um, gay friendly people would go up to them and talk to them and say, Do you really know what you're doing? And and a lot of them had no idea, you know, they were sent out there to do their bit and collect [00:24:00] signatures. And, um yeah, sorry, I'm a little bit off track there. What were you What was the question again? Just just looking at how AIDS and and homosexual reform were around the same time. I mean, I, I think the fact that it was, um, the AIDS thing happened then I think looking back, it was quite a positive thing for the law reform because it made people [00:24:30] it made people face homosexuality, which, and and without that, they probably wouldn't have unless it was in the immediate immediate sphere, like in their family. Um, I think it was a positive thing in that regard. I mean, hideous, hideous virus. No mistake in that. So many people have died. Yeah, but I think it was for the Joe public. It was actually quite good because everyone had an opinion. Um, [00:25:00] there was that whole idea of, um if if if you're not visible, if you if you go underground, it's not gonna help solve the disease. It's better to be upfront. It's better to find out whether you're HIV positive and, you know, be treated early detection, um, preventative measures. If if If you're not talking about it, if you're not [00:25:30] talking to people about how to have safe sex and all that, if that's not if that's not an option, you just put it underground. And, you know, I guess that's how I feel about abortion, too. Yeah. Did this greater degree of, uh, visibility almost nightly on the on on the news? Um, did that have an, um what kind of impact did it have [00:26:00] on, um, kind of gay men? I think some gay men that probably push him back in the closet. It was too scary. Um, if you're coming out and you're looking at all that, it would have been really scary for a lot of people. But I think for others, it was It was really good, because again, it it put faces to, um, gay men. Lesbian woman. Um, and [00:26:30] I think that was great. I mean, I just remember, you know, I mean, like I said, listening to Alison Lari speaking, thinking Wow, that's impressive. Yeah, And when you have people like Bill Logan standing up and talking and, um, you know, Phil Parkinson having a guy Patricia Bartlett on the radio, who said some horrible things about gay men, you know, um, [00:27:00] and here, Phil Parkinson, who was so methodical and could take her on really well, so I think it was, you know, I mean, basically, you had some real heroes out there life. That's how I found it. I was I was really impressed with some of the people out there talking. Um, it was very positive. Positive for me. I'm sure it would have been positive for a lot of people coming out already out. Um, [00:27:30] And then, of course, families of, um came in. There's been a woman. There are a lot of them talking too, So yeah, it really aired the subject. It was almost too weird. I think people got sick of it after a while. Like anything. It was just Yeah, bit over the top, but yeah, it was good. I, I think I've heard other interviews where people have talked about, uh, possibly an increase in, um, suicide [00:28:00] of gay men, but also in, um, an increase in queer bashings. Um, did that Do you recall any of those things? Certainly. I don't know about the, um, increase in suicides. Um, but the queer bashing did happen. There were a lot more attacks seem seem to be going on, um, at the time. And, um, I remember being part of a self [00:28:30] defence group for gay men that we started and did, and ended up being interviewed on eye witness programme, which ultimately lead to me coming out to the rest of my family before it. I thought there was a sensible thing to do. Yeah, So eyewitness was AAA television current affairs programme. I think it was eye witness. It was one of those current affairs programmes. Yeah. Yeah, and they interviewed us a group of gay men and why we were doing that and yeah, [00:29:00] So who else was interviewed? It was gay defence for self defence for gay men. And it was I remember Rob Lake and Neil Costello were part of that. I can't remember who else was in it, but yeah, and so this was going to get broadcast on National TV. And so you hadn't You weren't actually out to parts of your family. Yeah, I wasn't out to everyone in the family, so Yeah, I let them know before that aired. [00:29:30] Otherwise it would have been a bit of a It would have been hard for them, I think. And how did they How did they respond? Um, really good. I only got one negative response, and that was from my sister in law. Um, and it was from my, um my older brother's former wife, who I'd still let know by a letter by letter. And, um, that was a little bit of a negative response. [00:30:00] Not so much from a gay anger. More. You know what's what's the issue? You never sort of supported me when my marriage broke up sort of thing, so Yeah, but that's fair enough too, actually, but, um, otherwise a very positive response from the rest of the family. It was great. Yeah, I was really pleased. And And after it aired, Um, did you get much response from the public? No, not not really. Not really. Most most of I. I was pretty [00:30:30] out to most of my friends. Um, and I wasn't I didn't have family around me in Wellington. They were all in other areas, but, um, they were supportive. Yeah, I think, um, one of my young nephews had said to my sister when it aired, and they saw me on TV that his his comment was Oh, well, Uncle Phil, get AIDS. Now, that was sort of that was from a, you know, seven [00:31:00] year old or something. Um, but that was what the thinking was for young kids, and I thought they equated it with AIDS. Gay aids. You know, I think I've seen, uh, some photos of some of the reform marches in Wellington. And there is, um, a couple of guys wearing, um, gay plus gay equals aids T shirts. Um, do do you remember those? There was a couple of young chaps that were walking around [00:31:30] with those kind of t-shirts. No I. I don't, Actually. Yeah. Did you go on on, um, reform marches? Yeah. Yeah, I did. Go on. Um, one or two year year. Uh, I remember painting signs, Um, in the house I lived in with, um, some of those people we mentioned before. Um, yeah, marching down the street. Yeah. And how were people, uh, watching those [00:32:00] marches? How did how did they react? Um, now and again, there are people heckling. Um, it was it was great. They were marching down with a lot of people because it was really scary still, Um, I mean, even though I was out, I still found it really scary. I still would today if under those circumstances, probably, But, um because when [00:32:30] you get someone yelling and yelling abuse at you, it is a bit frightening. Um, I do remember the, um, the big march through town in Pigeon Park, and when it started dispersing a group of, um, very good looking straight guys. I mean, I think there were two brothers in particular who are very good looking, and they were the nastiest, too. They were screaming abuse and really violent. And I just remember thinking My God, you guys [00:33:00] are good looking, but you are nasty, you know? And, um, just walking through Pigeon Park now and again. Still, it still comes back to me, and I sort of send shivers down my spine because it was it was awful. Really awful. Yeah. Yeah, it was awful, actually. Yeah, there were also, um, anti reform marches. And And I think there was a was an impromptu Salvation Army one. Yeah. Do [00:33:30] you recall that? Yeah, yeah, I do. Um, I just remember them walking down Wakefield Street I. I wasn't there for that, but, um, my boss at the time who, um that was the second time I came back and worked at, um Well, what used to be sort of turned into, I think the Wakefield when the Empire had A and Ray, um, Sunbeam, much to his credit, joined [00:34:00] in, um, pretending to be a Salvation Army marcher. And he had gone to the, um, Salvation Army and bought some of the emblems and and, um, made up his own uniform. And and during the march, he unfurled this flag and this banner, which was very pro gay, and, uh, it took them a long time to realise he wasn't among them, But I thought that was really cool. Go on your right. And And [00:34:30] you mentioned before, um uh, Neil Costello. Um, who was a contemporary of yours? Um, tell me about Neil. Yeah. I didn't really know Neil that. Well, um, he was He was a really funny guy. Um, I. I thought he was a lovely guy. Actually. He was so clever with his art work. Um, I think he had a graphic design sort of background. Maybe, but he did a lot of the, um [00:35:00] um posters for the rallies and marches and things, and they were just I just remember being absolutely awed by them. They were just beautiful. Um, some of them quite deco looking at art to go looking. Um, but yeah, Very, very clever. Very clever guy. Yeah, um, very crazy sort of guy. Easy going guy full of smiles. Yeah. And like I said, he he worked at the [00:35:30] sauna part time as well. So yeah. Now, you and I actually met on a rainbow walk tour just a couple of weeks ago, and, um uh, we at the time, um, we were doing a little presentation on Neil. And I wonder, how was that for you? Because, I mean, we're talking about somebody that was a contemporary of yours. And now they're in a history walk. Did that. Yeah, it was a bit bizarre. [00:36:00] Um, but, actually, um, the walk when we were honoured I mean, I obviously was the oldest person honoured. And it was it was quite bizarre for me because I didn't know what period the war was going to be covering. What? Um, yeah, period in history. So it was the period I was here for It was my thirties. Um, and [00:36:30] it was probably my more sort of, um, political, um, march in the streets of a period. It was It wasn't just the gay marches I was on. I was on pro abortion. I was on. I was very much marching during the 81 tour against a tour, um, SI S march. So yeah, and then to see Neil's picture there was was quite bizarre. Um, but I felt like there [00:37:00] were other people who maybe were just as large as life too, You know Mark Anderson. He was pretty out there. You know, his boyfriend at the time, Mark McKenna, um, and Rob Lake, you know, um, yeah, but yeah, it was quite neat. It was quite a shock scene in there because he's no longer with us. Neil Costello. But, um I didn't know for some years what happened to him was he did go overseas, and [00:37:30] he just seemed to disappear off the face of the earth. You know, as it happens, one of one of the stories uh, we talked about with Neil was, um how he now has a memorial in the New Zealand AIDS Memorial quilt. Uh, he passed away in the early 19 nineties. Um, now, the AIDS memorial quilt was established by Wellington and Daniel Fielding. Um, did you know Daniel and his partner Peter, um, to say hello to, [00:38:00] But that's about all. Really? Yeah. I didn't really know them that well, No, I knew who they were, especially Daniel Fielding. But, um, other than that, I knew he was HIV positive, but, um, I didn't know much more about him. Really? Yeah. Ju just finally, Phil, um, I wonder if you could reflect back on, let say the last 30 40 years [00:38:30] and look at what the biggest changes have been for kind of rainbow gay culture and and maybe what still needs to be addressed? Ah, biggest changes, I suppose, is just being out, Um, and having, um, the human rights that go with it so you can't be kicked out of flats and discriminated in the workplace [00:39:00] as far as going forward from there? Well, I think there's still gay bashing and things. It's really hard to know how that would change because some people are just, uh, no, they find the whole gay and just yeah, but I'm really happy with with the progress that's been made in my time, I think it's been brilliant. Um um, but being [00:39:30] visible has been a very important step for me, and I think it's a good thing the way to go to be visible. Um, I suppose I'd probably say that, um, talking about what needs to be done more, I think we're we're doing all right. But I think you still have to be very vigilant that you keep up [00:40:00] with all those things because they can. Also, even though we've got a lot of those rights now that can be taken away from you, you only have to look at Donald Trump and what's he doing? You know, and with the armed forces and that, and it can be itched away as well. So, like democracy, too. You got to safeguard it by keeping up with what's going on. Um, watching, Yeah. Watching how it develops and making sure you keep [00:40:30] abreast of, um, things to safeguard your rights, Yeah.
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