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Well, I'm Philip Haxton. And I was born in England. Um, on the 25th of December 1967. Um, it was a political And, um, Mum went into labour six weeks early. Um, and I'm a twin. So there were [00:00:30] two of us struggling 48 hours to get out. Um, so it was quite traumatic. I remember it clearly laughing over me. Um, but I always say that, um I did all the work, and my brother just sat there and waged until the wave was clear and [00:01:00] then popped out to me. So I grew up in, um in Surrey, in England, which is sort of half now south of London. Um, and I guess after six months, um, my parents started noticing differences [00:01:30] between German and my development, and it was back in the days of I think it was Doctor Spock, where it was a real no no to compare babies development. So it was sort of a a time where even was saying babies develop differently, [00:02:00] and you shouldn't compare them to standard norms and that sort of thing. So it took quite a while for doctors to stop saying, Stop comparing your twin boys. And I think, um, I was diagnosed with P. The kind of somewhere between six months and a year of, [00:02:30] um, got the usual, Um, you know, he'll never walk. He'll never talk. You will never be able to be educated. Mum and Dad talk that slow bullshit. Um, that that kind of rhetoric comes from God. Because still, you know, I keep hearing this over and over again. [00:03:00] So as far as Mum and Dad were concerned, um, they decided to bring me up like my brother. Um, internally, I was just like my brother. I mean, so his, um I guess he was sort of like my my internal image of what my student [00:03:30] self was. Um, And it wasn't until we came to New Zealand and I was enrolled in a school called School in, um, which was a special school, which, when I look back, I'm not sure what quite was speaking about it. [00:04:00] Um, and I, I do actually remember the first day and arriving there and seeing all these kids in wheelchairs. And, um, you know, I, I was I used to walk with a trolley, but for some reason, I still haven't connected that to my [00:04:30] my identity. And, um, I just remember thinking, you know, Well, it wasn't around in those days, but what's the fuck? You know, um, why am I here? Why, why am I with with disabled kids? And, um so that was quite, um, an identity, um, [00:05:00] adjustment for me. And what what age were you then? Um, I think I had a 4.5. I was very unlucky in that because there wasn't really a pre school back then. So we were in 1971. And, um, and think the priest would it hit me [00:05:30] or wasn't or something. And so I was very luckily, given six months more schooling. Which me? At home. Can you tell me why do you think your parents why they didn't accept what the the doctors were saying in terms of You know what? [00:06:00] You know what? What, what The possibilities are. So, um, I'm not really sure, and and I I sort of think probably they wouldn't be sure as to why I think I think intuitively they realised that well, they probably [00:06:30] seen me interacting and notice that while my physical development was different my my intellectual development was similar, and I'd probably say with superior, you know, um and so I think they just Yeah, they they [00:07:00] could see that probably the doctors were wrong and and maybe had a sense that, you know, if that was going to be the case, um, that they wouldn't, you know, they they they tackle that when it came to it. One of the reasons we came [00:07:30] to New Zealand was that in England, um, I would have had to go to a boarding school because there were no schools that were, um were sort of geared up to cater for disabled kids. So, um, in the area, So I would have had to have gone away to school, [00:08:00] and they didn't want that. So, um, so, yeah, I think they just were pretty keen to, you know, they've seen me interacting with my brother and realised that there was no reason that I shouldn't, you know, and do it. Well, I could [00:08:30] Can you recall or have you been told what the doctors were actually saying at the time in terms of, you know, um, what you'd be able to do what you wouldn't be able to do? Um, I think I don't think they knew. But I think there's still, you know, to this day there's a tendency with doctors to give the worst case scenario [00:09:00] so that people don't come back and say, Why didn't you tell me that? Yeah. So I I can from, uh I mean, from that fear based professional point of view, I can understand, Um what? You know what they're doing. They're mitigating the risk of, [00:09:30] um, creating expectations that are higher than they would want them to be. I mean, I think what's missing is a conversation with parents of the disabled kids about the possibilities rather than just saying, Well, this is the worst case scenario [00:10:00] because I think parents do believe doctors and then they they lose hope. And, you know, I cared about disabled kids is often. What I see in terms of development is not caused by their impairment or disability. [00:10:30] Um, it's caused by the way people interact with them because of that, you know? So so you sort of. If you block hope that your kid's gonna develop, then you're likely to not give as much attention and information and reward then, if you have that hope [00:11:00] Did your parents and did the family and yourself did was there much support kind of externally? No, I mean again, I say back then And we are looking at sort of 40 years ago. Um, yes. No, I mean, there was no paid support services. Um uh, and I'm not sure [00:11:30] whether there wasn't any or whether with mum and Dad just didn't know about them or or want them. Um, I know, as I grew up, um, you know, my my siblings had to put my shooting socks on the morning, and they hated doing it, and they made me age. And, you know, this kind [00:12:00] of sibling stuff, and, um And you know, actually, when I remember having a conversation with my brother, I think you know it. It sort of thing. Um, you know, I realised that that must have been difficult for you, but he said it was really difficult for us because there was [00:12:30] a sort of expectation that we would, um it was kind of like another chore, you know? So, um, I think you know it. It it worked it It probably would have been better if somebody who would pay who come in and allow me to have, [00:13:00] you know, more of an equal relationship with my siblings. But, yeah, we we got to. So hm? You mentioned before about having a memory? Um, about 4.5 fiveish going to the school in Auckland. What is your earliest memory? Um, probably lying on my deck [00:13:30] in my room, having a tent and and kicking the door with my feet and just screaming. And I was probably three. It was in England. Um, yeah, why do I [00:14:00] do remember, um, my I I needed to help eating, and my mother and father used to have me. And I mean, there's two sort of early memories of one wanting the other person to pay me for some reason. And the other thing [00:14:30] I remember was, um and you probably the other way around. It was probably more. No, Dad, I want Mum to feed me because Dad would forget. And, um so every time I wanted a mouthful because we were polite English Children, I had to say, Please, may I have [00:15:00] a mouth every time? And so with dad, it was like, Please, please So, um, I learned to take really, really big bites of food so that I wouldn't have go out as much. So I mean, I'm not saying Dad [00:15:30] would or forgot. Can you describe what it's like to actually have to be in that position where you're saying, you know, Please give me a mouth full of food, you know, um, I, I mean, uh, I can only look back on it. I mean, at the time was No. I, [00:16:00] um I think when I look back on it, um, you know, uh, you know, I mean, part of me things, uh, you know, it it it could have been different. And, you know, I could have been able to be more [00:16:30] than to say, for God's sake, I mean, you know, and you know, and I think that the type of person I am now, um I think that part of you know, my persistence and motivation and, um, mhm enjoyment of challenging [00:17:00] myself has sort of come from growing up as one of four kids and not being given special treatment and not being and, you know, kind of the opposite where you know, it was, um You know, being [00:17:30] out. Can you describe yourself as a kid? As a child, I go, um I would probably quite a serious game, actually. I, I, um I'm a Capricorn I. I You know, [00:18:00] I sort of use astrology as just a interesting thing. I'm not fully on it, but they say Capricorn kind of grow down rather than grow up. And so a lot of kids, um, kids can be quite serious and quite sort of, um I guess, to To to sort of. I think I was quite aware. [00:18:30] And what I know is, as I get older, I become less serious and less. Um um probably a bit least principal. I think I was probably quite a principal kid. Even, you know, the young kid. I was pretty much, um you know, I had a very strong [00:19:00] sense of who I was. And, um, what was there and what wasn't there. So So, for example, at school, um, a I wasn't allowed to run, and I wasn't allowed to sit on my [00:19:30] knees like because it was bad. And the hips and, um, running and sitting between my my knees was, you know, running was easier than walking and it got me to where I wanted to go quicker. Um, and sitting like that was stable and [00:20:00] I could do stuff. And so, um, even though I had these physiotherapists screaming at me, stop running, you know, I'd slow down and wait to go away and then run, you know? So I guess, and I guess as well I was quite rebelling It, [00:20:30] um, from quite a young age, because that would have been sort of when I was 67. And so I even then I was making decisions about what I was being told to do and what worked for me and being [00:21:00] sort of disobedient and in a way that I guess at that stage was, you know, safe, you know? But I think as I got older, I got more and more over just being and got into trouble, for so surrounding the family. What kind of, [00:21:30] um, support did you guys have? I'm thinking like you're talking about physiotherapists. What what were the other people around the family that were helping? Um, my mother's mother, who divorced in her forties, uh, lived with us in a home home and then come through settings. So So she was all the boys, Um, part of the family. [00:22:00] And yeah, right up until I left home, She she lived with us. So I guess, um, you know, she was a bit of a built in babysitter pick us up from school. Um, apart from that, um, I you know, I look back now [00:22:30] and think, um and dad, Dad was in sales, and so he was, um, away like and so really, Mum did quite a sterling job. Um, you know, in hindsight of looking at the, you know, to begin with three kids under four, [00:23:00] uh, one of whom was dis disabled and pretty much doing that often single handedly. Um and, um yeah, and and so I, I guess the downside of that, you know, sort of again when I reflect on my childhood, it was quite it was quite ordered [00:23:30] and, um, and structured and scheduled, you know? And I guess that was mom's way of just making it work. Um, but, you know, I don't think I know they were kind of psychologists and stuff. I remember, um, [00:24:00] again. And this goes back to being quite a serious kid. I remember you know, this psychology gift that I would say once a year. And, um, I remember sort of thinking of her as a friend, you know? And we would have, um, these amazing [00:24:30] conversations about life and stuff like that, and, um, and sort of fast forwarding into my early teens. Um, there was a woman who sold breakers because, you know, back in the day, used to use, um, typewriters at school and France. No. [00:25:00] Remember having an amazing conversation with because she just left her husband and she she was saying to me, You know, um, if I if I ever get married again, which I probably won't, um I only make it like a contract. You know, it's gonna be three years or five years, and at the end of it, we're gonna sit down, [00:25:30] renegotiate and decide what what's gonna happen differently or whatever. And I remember as a 14 year old thinking, Yeah, that's of course. Why wouldn't you? Why would you say to someone I'll be in a relationship with you forever and ever, no matter what happened, you know? So So [00:26:00] it was interesting that I did have these kind of very adult relationship with with adults from my my childhood in 10 years. Hm. Now, a quote which I picked up from you is when labels are called for. I identify as gay, disabled white male. When did you realise that you were gay? [00:26:30] Well, again, it's probably It's probably quite funny because But, like the whole disabled thing, Um, I've I've always been a bit slow at sort of connecting my behaviour or or my sort of Yeah, my behaviour was a label. Um, [00:27:00] and I know that, like I, I was playing with boys from from through 15, 10 or 11. I remember, you know, one of my friends had a used to get playboys from somewhere. We used to look at girls, you know, look at playboys, naked women [00:27:30] and and fiddle with each other, You know, And and yet it wasn't until I was 19 and watched this movie called Consenting a Dog. Do you remember that? I found a clip of that on YouTube a while back, and I've never been able to get a copy of the the, um, [00:28:00] the movie. So, um, so I I'd watch that movie, and a couple of weeks before that I'd sort of had this guilty one night with this guy who lives in the Hamilton. And I remember a week too late watching the film, which was about a young guy coming [00:28:30] out and talking to his parents, parents and stuff like that. And I remember ringing this guy up and him saying and saying, Oh, God, I've just watched this movie and I realised I am gay and he said, Oh, well, that's good. Um, I started to get married. So he's also been friends [00:29:00] woman, and he decided to, um that he was straight. So I don't know what implication that has on me, um, that I turned a man straight. But, you know, um so even though right up to that time I've been sort of I had, you know, guide that [00:29:30] I had slept with it wasn't until um, I was 19 that I realised. Actually, I didn't want to be with you, and and I had had a couple of girlfriends and a very drunk. And one night with the, um, the staff member of a place [00:30:00] I used to live with that was scanned. And, um and you know, I remember being terrified with my girlfriends that I was gonna sleep with them and waking up after that one night with with the staff member and crawling out of bed and going to sleep on the floor because I kind [00:30:30] of woke up thinking, Oh, work part time, you know? Um, yes. So with that movie that, um, that sort of I I just remember going Oh, gosh. And you didn't, You know, a and a And overnight [00:31:00] my my identity changed and and I just spent six months just going and everyone and just saying, Oh, I just realise I'm gay and they kind of go, What do you mean? Just realise, Like, you were straight last week, Did you? Last time I told [00:31:30] you. What? You know what What's happening in the it and realise that, you know, that was me. And, um and it felt really easy to do that because, um, I'd always been different. So, um, you know, we I would hear people [00:32:00] saying how difficult it was to come out. Um, in my experience, both Well, actually, it's, you know, and so obviously different. Anyway, um, telling people different in another way isn't you know, it's it was actually easier than negotiating [00:32:30] relationships around being disabled in some way. I've heard an interview. Um, I think it was with Claire Ryan, um, talking about the idea of sexuality and disability and that, actually, for a lot of people, it's even hard to to to even have that conversation. Do you think that was a part of it that actually people seeing you just like, as [00:33:00] as Yeah, in a way. I mean, I remember sort of. I would, um I do kind of realised that by saying I was gay, you know, I was signalling one, and I do have a sexuality. And two, it's a sexuality [00:33:30] that I thought about and decided that it's not the the the normal or the norm. Um, but yeah, I think I I don't know. You know, my, my my thoughts about sexuality and disability have sort of changed over [00:34:00] over the last 20 years. Where probably, um you know, initially I would have agreed with the asexuality thing, but I think there's two sort of dynamics going on. One is that I think there's another extreme where people, [00:34:30] um, assume disabled people with sexuality is somehow deviant or you know, or, you know, the they don't get it for the death and over fit and that sort of thing. But I think the other thing that I've noticed and I've noticed this will be probably particularly, [00:35:00] um, is I think it's so much thinking that people are as sexual, but I think it's a, um, kind of internalised fear of what it might mean to be in a sexual relationship with someone who's disabled and and what [00:35:30] would be you know what, what responsibility that would take. And And, you know, what would other people think of you know of me than non disabled person being attracted to a disabled person? And you know what was my own parent thing? You know, I think [00:36:00] there's it's sort of quite easy to make the assumption, But I, I guess in the last three years, I've been pondering about whether it is more a projection than a belief that people are not sexual. Yeah, we started this part off with me talking about, [00:36:30] um, that quote about labels and I'm wondering, even though you just did, you know, you did label yourself in that in that document. I mean, what do you think about labels? Um, well, I mean I, I guess at the moment I'm on a bit of an anti label group. Um, and it's not that I think labelled, um inherently bad. Um, but I think we [00:37:00] I think they are a tool for awareness and for, um, you know, delivering political change, like human rights changes and and, you know, employment, equality and all that sort of thing. Um, but I think people get people get [00:37:30] hung up on them. And, um, I guess my point at the Ted talk I did recently is that we we we have to see the the light side of of labels, which is that thing of you know, it it it has changed a very homogenous [00:38:00] idea of society into a much more diverse idea. Um, hasn't, you know, hasn't been a curable? But but certainly we now know that there is, You know, there's more, um, difference around, um, but I think [00:38:30] the dark side of labels is that they, um they separate people. Um, they tend to, um, create entitlement. Um, and I think they they one dimensional people's identity [00:39:00] and particularly not the way other people see you, But the way you see yourself and, um And so I think that, you know, we're in a point now in society where we've got to start I doing the label because one [00:39:30] did they change it? Um and, you know, if we, for example, when I look at what game mean 20 years ago, when I came out, Um, that idea of gay has stuck with people that you know, my age, our age. Um, but [00:40:00] when I talked to young, uh, people and gay is is something different. I mean, even the whole thing about things being so gay and the, um you know, the the I guess the the controversy about that I [00:40:30] don't think young people are using the word gay to put down gay people. Um, it the word gave this change meaning for young people and in the same way as gay used to mean, you know, um, and now it come to mean, um, being slightly [00:41:00] and star and and and so I think, Yeah, I, I think if if if you've got this label that you prize and then the word the meaning of the word changes and it turns into something that [00:41:30] you don't agree with. Then you you sort of Yeah, you're stuck in a pretty conflicting space. Um, the other thing is that as I get older I, I don't even I mean, I call the gay as a short hand, but when I, I mean, I didn't go to the big [00:42:00] gay out this year. Um, I'm probably not going to go to the pride parade because there's something about being gay for me now that doesn't fit right. You know, I, I don't feel part of a gay community. Um, my community are people that [00:42:30] think that the world in, um, a more complex way than most people do and see the world for what it is. Um, And some sleep with men and some with women, and some were both. [00:43:00] And some, you know, are guys now, But they used to be girls and and vice versa. So I think all that that identity stuff around lab is changing Pretty, um, pretty quickly, actually. And and, um yeah, I. [00:43:30] I do think it becomes a little bit limiting. And underneath you, you know, I, I don't think I had to go out and say hi I'm Philip and I'm gay, you know, sort of if it's not, doesn't matter. So without using [00:44:00] the labels, how would you want to be described? Or how would you describe yourself? Well, I've been I, I guess I've been looking at this idea about how we find the risky and I've sort of started, I guess trying to, particularly among disabled people, because I think part [00:44:30] of the whole disability dis labelled label identity thing is that it's very negative. And so if I wake up every morning and, um, say I'm disabled, would you wake up and look at me and say it's disabled? Um, that's the reality that you know we're going to [00:45:00] create for ourselves. So, you know, I'm gonna get pissed off about all the things that I perceive, You know, me and you are gonna have a limited idea. Um, of who I am. You know what? What that means? Um, [00:45:30] it's like going up insane. I'm Philip and I'm unique in the way that I function. I'm unique, And I you know, my attraction, you know, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. You know, I'm unique in the way I work. I work from home and I don't have [00:46:00] to be at work at 8. 30 finish five. So there's lots of things about me that unique and, you know, and I I tested this on myself. But, you know, one day I woke up and thought, I'm going to wake up from now on and think I'm unique. [00:46:30] I'm gonna be unique experience and see what happened. And, you know, maybe it's self fulfilling property, but I think that one time I committed to that my life changed quite dramatically. Um, you know, I for example, I stopped, um, [00:47:00] working so much away from home. So I think people Well, if we don't have, um, let's have it here. Um, because if we don't, um, if it's not critical, I'm not gonna be there. Um and, you know, just doing that meant that I didn't have to go out into [00:47:30] an environment that often is quite limiting and irritating. And so I stopped, you know, putting my energy into being pissed off with that stuff and started enjoying working at home, realised that people who worked in offices loved [00:48:00] coming here because they got out of the office and it was a one you know. And so you know, from that I've sort of started saying, Well, let's redefine diversity from all these categorizations and labels and then trying to represent every category and label in order to be [00:48:30] diverse. And let's say that this is not something that you can create because it just it. I mean, the universe is diverse. You you can't make more of that. Um, you can recognise them more, more, But really, the way of recognising it is saying more how we unique [00:49:00] and how we become common or similar and that, you know, that that starts a much more interesting dialogue. Then you know I'm gay. What are you sort of thing? And the interesting thing is that when you start talking to people [00:49:30] about being unique and common, everyone starts. Who thinks that your labelling them of common starts saying, Oh, I'm unique too. And and that's true. We are. So if we are all unique, why are we, um why are we can each [00:50:00] other? Why are we why are we creating differences when in fact, what's common about us is that we're we're unique, you know, um, often I say, Well, yeah, you're in. You're need too. But I'm more unique than you are, you know? And then you get into, you know, a [00:50:30] concept. So what I felt like, hardly the serious part of it is that you get people like Richard Pro spouting all that bullshit did yesterday. And that is, to me a result of, um, the diversity lobby [00:51:00] focusing on labels and then people like, you know, New Zealand first page using that, um, in a way that, um, is discriminatory and inflammatory. So [00:51:30] yeah, I, I do think that, you know, we're we're human beings. We've got a bloody big brain. We've got a neocortex. But actually, the way we, um, relating to each other with this I like me or I know is quite, um it's quite [00:52:00] unevolved, and and I think we've got to, you know, up our game, and in that way, otherwise, we're not going to evolve in that. In some ways, I think we're going backwards. I should also just mention that the the the the pros comment was that, um I think he wrote that [00:52:30] Muslim men shouldn't be allowed on Western air aeroplanes. Um, between the ages of 18 and 35 because they, they are more likely to be deal with. So when you say you think we may be going backwards What? What? What do you mean? I've been reading a social researcher called Brune Brown, who taught [00:53:00] her who researches on shame and vulnerability and, you know, very briefly not giving you credit. What she's saying is that we're all vulnerable, but we tend to either hide our vulnerability or we label some PE people vulnerable [00:53:30] and others not vulnerable and that, um, a lot of their vulnerability comes from shame, which is about feeling, um, be who we are. And when you start looking through a shame lens, you can see [00:54:00] how much of the way that we relate to each other is shame based. You know, you see politicians shaming each other. You see parents shaming the kids. You see kids shaming the parents. You see teachers shaming. You know, the shame is pretty ripe. And our [00:54:30] culture in most cultures, um, and and what she says is that shame? Um, basically paralyses change. So people feel bad about who they are, they won't change. Um, my I guess the observation is that [00:55:00] civil rights movements on the whole tend to go the majority. Shame the minority. The minority gets sick of being shamed and in response starts shaming the majority for shaming them. Um, and [00:55:30] I think that's why civil rights take so long to happen and and don't really ever properly happen is that the shaming just gets projected back onto the other group. Um, if you look at some of the [00:56:00] sort of big named and social change like Martin Luther King, the park, you know Dame Finney, Cooper? Um, what you notice is that always then the message is this is about all of us. It's not about blaming, blaming, it's about how do we [00:56:30] work together? Um, going back to your question. Why do I think that we may be going backwards in terms of the social acceptance is that I think we're getting to the point where people like Richard Pro are feeling quite threatened and shamed about [00:57:00] being a white male. Um and so it's kind of up in the end. And so what we're seeing is sort of more scream, I think, um, attitudes against diversity, because people are not [00:57:30] having the conversation that we're all OK. Even white middle class men, Do you think, um, things like, uh, I've noticed over the last couple of years, or probably more than a couple of years Where, um if you say something or if you try and have a kind of conversation, um, it can so easily be shut down by somebody saying, Oh, that's just political correctness. That's political correctness. You know, [00:58:00] You you just you just and I. I did find that term pretty and find me in a situation where that many years and then my biggest question is What does it mean? You know, because I I think it's one of those terms that have been kind of coined as [00:58:30] exactly what you say. It's full of, uh, a way of and, um, I mean, if he needs, um, about being politically appropriate, perhaps or politically reasoned. But I think this you know something great. And something [00:59:00] has to be so again getting into this polarised I you, um and it's again. It's another form of shame. It's like, you know, behind that is shame on you. You're making me feel bad, you know, for shame on you if you're shaming me, so I'm [00:59:30] gonna shame you back and it's just, uh it's it's a no win conversation. It It seems to me that on one hand, one person is trying to have a conversation, and the other person is interpreting that as, um, as a as a threat or you were You were shaming me again. I mean, [01:00:00] and this is the thing I get philosophical and not wanting to to again getting into the blame game is Is that what I do? That is, It's that whole thing of, Oh, that just being politically correct has probably come out of that, um, thing that I talked about before The dark [01:00:30] side of this awareness and and human rights stuff around labelling is that is that sense of entitlement. So it's sort of like the conversation goes, You can't do that or you can't say that because I'm this label and you know, I've got human rights and [01:01:00] therefore you're wrong And you know, and so I think that, um and and I've been guilty of this in the past that you know what one of the the early stages of of realising that you're OK and you don't need to be Shane feel shame about who you are is that you tend to [01:01:30] get a bit evangelical and start, um, almost overcompensating by taking every little thing as a in a front or a you know, a criticism. So in a way, I think that probably civil rights movements have created [01:02:00] that comeback of political correctness by slightly over doing. But, you know, you have to give us there you go. So again, it's I mean, if we keep on going in the you know, I might, you know, No, I'm [01:02:30] your wrong way. Um, we will never move into another sense of how we can live together is human beings. We We're not going to agree. We're not always going to like [01:03:00] what one person does, but we don't have to. It's worth that. You know, I, I often say that, um, you know, I. I think it's quite OK to be judgmental. In fact, I'm probably one of the most judgmental people I know. Um, what [01:03:30] I don't do is verbalise it or act on it and you know, to me, it's about learning to have inside thoughts and outside thoughts and make sure that your inside thoughts don't come out [01:04:00] and be OK with going on. I think that's stupid. But don't don't say to the person and that you think ST him Go and say it to a tree or say it to somebody who agrees with you. Um and, you know, but But don't use it to to hurt people because that's what [01:04:30] we you know what we tend to do. We we think that, um we are entitled to express our judgement with I think we have a responsibility to be aware of our engagements and be responsible about what we do with them. [01:05:00] I want to take you back to, uh, earlier on you were talking about, um, going to the first school in New Zealand that you're at the, um, Carlson school. I think in and around the same time, you were mentioning about how, um, a lot of what happens in the disability world is that it's not necessarily disability, but it's about how people treat that that that child or that person [01:05:30] with a disability Can you talk to me about your own kind of growing up through the the school system and about, um, how people treated you and and what effect that had on you. I think generally I I was traded pretty well. But the reason for that, I think, was that I had a pretty good sense of self. [01:06:00] And I was pretty assertive and, you know, I, I I do quite a bit of work around bullying. So I've been involved with pink shoot and stuff like that for a few years, and I remember I remember when I left Carlton school, I was eight years old [01:06:30] and I went to Mount school and I was spent and I, I just knew that I had to be the one that went up kids and said the first thing, Yeah, nobody taught me that. Nobody told me to do it. It was just [01:07:00] in this innate understanding that I had that, you know, and I wouldn't have thought this back then. But now I realise that, um, bye. By initiating interaction, you you own it. You set the tone. Um, where [01:07:30] if you wait until somebody else initiates it. Um, if that person finds you threatening or, um, different, then how likely that the tone is gonna be negative? And then you're gonna have to either respond to that negativity. Try and change it around or you'll recreate and then [01:08:00] lose power in the relationship. So, um I mean, I did that with kids. I did that with teachers. And, um, every new teacher, I would just go to them and say hi, I'm Philip. Um, I use a typewriter. Um, it'll probably take you a couple of weeks to get used to the [01:08:30] click clack, but, um, you learn new, um, I may be slower than other people, and if I need anything I like so I I did own that interaction with my my teachers. So apart from [01:09:00] it is out there, um, early in the week and doing some work with peer mediators around conflict. And, um, it just came up that all the girls sit around in circles in the in the, um in the the programme. And we were we were [01:09:30] talking about, um we were actually talking about quantum physics and the way Leon had to rearrange clouds to be on different levels. And and that's the quantum physical it not of that. We all connect it because it would be in the universe. Um, move. Um, [01:10:00] so and we were saying it sort of a bit like an and that this sort of a group of girls sitting in circle, you'll probably want to, um but what? What I realised is that my that's what I did at school. I sat around with the girls, um, GOP and while the boys sat in the line and didn't look at each [01:10:30] other or, um and apart from I think it was at primary school, a few sort of petty girl. I'm not going to be your friend anymore than, um I never experienced bullying. Um, I had really good relationships [01:11:00] with good teachers. They were all good. Um, but and and funnily enough, a couple of them were going, and I could have continued that relationship when I left school. Um, so, yeah, I mean, I really feel that the only [01:11:30] the only bad it seemed to go was my last year when, um, I was I actually left home before I left school because I was really rebellious. So So, you know, from about four came, you know, cigarettes and drinking and [01:12:00] arguing with my parents. And, um, there there was a a resident place around the corner, and I just said one day, um, to mum and Dad. This this working, Um, I assume you're not gonna move, so I will. And you know, I I'm not [01:12:30] happy. You're not happy. Um, there's somewhere I can go just around the corner. It's supervised. Um, So I ended up leaving home and halfway through my thing for me, and it was really difficult. Been living as an adult and going to school. And, [01:13:00] um so I you know, I give my my obedience at school to Greece. So I remember getting to an accounting class and 20 minutes late and then my account teacher saying, If you're not prepared to be on time, you might as well turn around and not [01:13:30] come back. So I sort of sat there, thought about it, turned around and left the class. The whole class class applauded. And the teacher who was one bag then want to expel me. And luckily, somebody had said, Look, he's left home, [01:14:00] You know, I've been in the troubles student. That's good. Something. Um, yeah. So, I mean, apart from that last year was would have been difficult for any kid. Um, schools. OK, One of the things that strikes me. Is that that whole idea [01:14:30] about owning conversations? So, you know, instigating a conversation, Um, I think is really fantastic advice, but what happens if you're in a situation where, um, you don't feel you have that power? I mean, for a lot of people, they they would feel powerless. I mean, I think this is where our bullying strategy, if we do have one, is [01:15:00] I had different thoughts about the way we should be tackling bullying. Um, at the moment, we see it as a kids issue, and we tend to focus all their energy on the the were allowed to call the trigger of and very little [01:15:30] in into the the target of bullying. Um, so for me, first of all, I think we've got to get real and say bullying is an adult issue that we live in, a society that uses bullying to, um to achieve its things. [01:16:00] And if you look at every institution, you know, politics, justice, education, you know, family mhm. In the on the whole, bullying is used as a strategy to get what you want. Um, and I think there's very little, [01:16:30] um, willingness on the part of adults to say. Actually, if we don't stop using bullying as a way of getting what we want, we can expect kids to not see that, and I emulate it. [01:17:00] So I think that's the first, um, thing we need to do differently. I think the second thing is that we need to be working much more kids who are the target of bullying and teaching them strategies to respond to either respond to, um, negative [01:17:30] power need or to learn how to initiate positive work. And the the last thing I think is that we've got to come back to diversity is that most bullying is the result of, you know, either one You know, [01:18:00] two kids or going for kids. Seeing another kid is different in some way, and my model of working with a bullying dynamic is getting people who need just use people now to see what their similarities [01:18:30] in that and to, uh, you know, to understand that most people have so some commonality in what they're trying to do or how they feel about themselves or what kind of experience [01:19:00] they've had in the past. And I think if we were, you know, I wrote a blog and about, You know, if you work with people separately to sort of do a bit more expiration of who am I and then bring people together to share [01:19:30] who they are with each other. Um, you know, maybe I'm being naive and I ate, but I think we would see bullying dynamics. Listen. Yeah. And I guess the last thing is teaching witnesses to bullying how to intervene in [01:20:00] a constructive way, which is really facilitating that stuff or redirecting or or or asking questions. What's going on here? Hearing you speak? You know, I, I get this real sense of self and confidence. And it sounds like that you had that right from an early age. Has it ever kind of [01:20:30] lessened? Have you ever felt, uh I'm not quite sure who I am? Or have you always been really strong in in in in that I've always been quite aware. I mean, I, I trained the youth line cos when I was 19. Um, and that's how my parents I know I was gay because in a confident [01:21:00] you own group, a friend of a friend of my brothers, um, went off and told the friend. Give what? Jeremy's twin brothers? Um, slightly unethical. But, um, so, I mean, I did a lot of work. [01:21:30] Probably between 19 and 25 on self awareness. Um, some. There was some undoing of family stuff around, not just around disability, but but just about who? Who I was because, you know, having been [01:22:00] sort of in that rebellious sort of long game with my parents for, you know, probably since I was 14 or 15 and that that kind of went on into my twenties. Um, you know, there there was, uh, for me, there was, uh, I, I guess not [01:22:30] so much a sense of not being confident about who I was, but but kind of working out how it came to be that I was so different to my parents in particular. But also, in some respects, at that time, quite different to my brother and [01:23:00] and my youngest sister, my my older youngest, Um, I've got a sister who is 10 years younger, so and with that, he always got on really well. And I think, um, you know, and in some ways, um, we both slightly, you know, different than the with the family. You know, she because [01:23:30] she was sort of teeny younger. And and maybe because and me principally Because I think, um, going to a coed school is, And also in the school where my jeremy Wendy went to Auckland grammar and, um, girl. [01:24:00] And I think I just just from being in that mixed schooling environment in a lot of socioeconomic, um, environment as well as being who I was, um, just gave me a completely different value. [01:24:30] Um, and so I suppose you know, going back to that Shane thing, Um, I had to work through, um my, um What Brown talked about my shame web. And and that was very much my my parents. And at the time, my siblings, [01:25:00] um, whose value base was quite different. So So, um so, yeah, I. I think it's been more about if I had that doubt. It's not about who I am, but it's about, um, how to be in relationship with [01:25:30] people who light family who are close but who are different from no, you know, no fault of their own. But But, you know, I I've had a very different life experience. I know who they put a lot of the things that you've been talking about are things [01:26:00] about the interconnectedness of people with each other and and and wider kind of, um, ideas. Where does that come from? Where where you're actually looking outward and you're you're looking about how things connect with because a lot of people don't necessarily do that. Uh, two years. So we training. And actually, that's another. That's another [01:26:30] example of feeling, um, a lack of confidence. So I trained. I did the Epson Teachers College social work course in, I think 1991. Um and it was quite well, sort of quite [01:27:00] well known, being quite radical. So they were 40 20 of whom were Maori, 10 Pacific and 10. So it was quite an immersive experience and highly political and highly sort of driven by radical social action theory. And, you know, [01:27:30] by using a bi cultural immersion, um, model for the programme. Um, and even though, um, I during the programme, I felt, you know, I felt really comfortable in that sort of, you know, being in the minority, we a lot of my [01:28:00] my tutorial group were just wigged out about. It's not fair. It's not fair, you know? And I was like, chill out. You know, 32 years when we're studying social, you know, dynamics get used to it. Stop saying that. [01:28:30] Um, even though I felt quite comfortable with that, um what it what it did, Was it It really did my idea of the world upside down and well, probably inside out is more correct me. Um, because it it reframed all the [01:29:00] typical you know, Maori, um, and, you know, lower educated low employee, because their fault, you know. And so I went I went through Probably, I think, six months to a year where I mean, I remember I've been, And so for the situation and and something [01:29:30] social, political, political will come up. And I would go into this thing of thinking Shit. Um, I actually don't know how to respond to this, because what I would have said two years ago I know is not true anymore. [01:30:00] Um, but I haven't quite integrated my new truth, so that that was quite, um that was quite a tough time. Just, you know, just again, not not so much My well, yeah, Not so much. [01:30:30] My sense of self But But as you say, that that that sense of how we connect with each other and how strong, um, through patriarchal ideology has strong an influence that has or honour and and how subconscious [01:31:00] it is, you know, And, um and how difficult it is to sort of, Well, you know, once once, you know, you can't not know. And so, yeah, you you have to work out a new way of saying Well, actually, that's not quite how [01:31:30] it works. Um, and I wrote a book in that that that works. Um, funnily enough, I just even 20 years later, I began put into music and, you know, and and fifth not looking back [01:32:00] at the woods and seeing them as the the embryonic stage of what I'm doing now, 20 years later, around the same time, you also did a Churchill fellowship. Can can you tell me about that? Yeah, I did think about that because I read the report that I wrote [01:32:30] couple of years ago, and and again, I thought, Shit, I was again starting to say these things about diversity and society back then. So, um, one of my social work lecturers sort of encouraged me to, um, apply to [01:33:00] to look at technology for people that, um, don't use verbal language. Um, and then he he was a bit of a of the computers, you know, which were really computers. But, um, and I thought, though, on the trust [01:33:30] of a a organisation called, which is still going, um, that struggle was working in the area of, um, what's called a augmentative and alternative communication. So it's been two months in the states, um, freaked [01:34:00] out and tear by this I was gonna get shock or even with the the my friend Alan, who travelled with me would go out and get shock. Um, bit of culture shock. Um, so I met with probably about 10 of the leading [01:34:30] disability at in the States. Um, including, you know, his name dropping. This guy called Justin who worked for the president who must been George Bush. First one, um, and he'd been involved with the, um [01:35:00] the Americans who were disabilities act. So it just when I was in and I met all the people that used equipment, um, to speak and what what was. And also I met with speech therapists and people that prescribed the equipment [01:35:30] and it was interesting because the professionals were staying. Oh, this technology is wonderful and gives people so much freedom and then blah, blah, blah. Um, and they were prescribing this. And so it was through them that people got these devices, [01:36:00] but the people themselves using them were saying things like, Well, actually, um, they're really slow and limited. Um, I go to shop and say something on my device, and people don't realise that it's [01:36:30] me talking, so they just look at the device and go, Oh, wow, that device just caught. And so dismiss completely that this was the person voice. Um, and the third thing that I found most interesting and again it's about human connectedness is that most people say that [01:37:00] given the choice, they arrive love, have access to a person that knew them well enough to interpret and speak on their behalf. So So there was this real, you know, um, fragmented [01:37:30] between what? Users of the super saying and what the people that had the power to to it it funds with with a So I guess it was sort of my you know, a after him and done social work training, and I was never interested [01:38:00] in through the the justice or or welfare social work. I was always more interested in the kind of sociopolitical social change. But so it was just the first sort of an experience of applying what I've learned at [01:38:30] at social work school about the the paradigms that are often quite well, they're not invisible, but they're not trained by a lot of people. How did the Churchill Fellowship change you If if if at all, um, didn't change me. [01:39:00] I mean, it gave me a bit of a taste for travelling. Um, and, you know, while while while I sort of half that I was in the state of fear of my life, I mean, um, I was just fascinated by being in a different country and and, um particularly in America, [01:39:30] because it was was so in some ways, while while it was unfamiliar, it was quite familiar because we get so much media and I couldn't run down, down and, God, the flooding have been moving. You know, it's like I know what the pistons can say. Um [01:40:00] um, whereas we were like, we were like aliens to Americans and know when no one knew when New Zealand was and, you know, and people thought it was near England or they thought it was Australia. That visual stuff? Um, [01:40:30] I think probably. And it gave me a bit of discipline. I'd write something at the end of it, and it it gave me some confidence. And I came back and applied for a job at the Human Rights Commission, and and I probably Well, [01:41:00] no, I I'm not sure whether or not I would have done that had I not done that fellowship and come out with something that I felt was kind of me and and the world, um, in in different ways. And, you know, it was probably my first, you know, Might be real. [01:41:30] Hm? Stages thing. I mean, you know, I think probably when Winston Churchill probably have more. I mean, you probably know this. I mean, they probably have more perceived value than then. They Yeah, I sort of felt like, Yeah, [01:42:00] I know when I talk to a few people wrote it up and everyone said, Wow, you could have went due to a village. He must say, Really, the cool. Um but yeah, I mean, people do go well, So it was my big break. The nineties [01:42:30] were actually full of wow factor for you because, I mean, this is the the nineties is when you did the comedy. You're on Shortland Street. So mainstream TV at seven o'clock at night for the whole three weeks or three weeks. But tell me about, um, getting more into that kind of public limelight and also kind of going from a very serious kid to being doing stand up comedy. Yeah, it was. I know now [01:43:00] that I don't do it. It was, like quite a quite a weird part of my life. I mean, you know, as I always say, I, I kind of fell into it. It wasn't something that I aspired to do. I didn't You know? I don't know. The boy want to be a stand up comic? I? [01:43:30] I didn't even, you know, decide halfway through working at the commission that I wanted to be the comedian. Um, I was bored at the commission and I felt like what I was doing very left brain and I for I need to do something creative. And so [01:44:00] I found this comedy course, which was short and cheap, just like me. 21. Um, I think and it was I think it was five weeks, twice a week. And at the end of it, we, um we did, um, a gig [01:44:30] up at Kenny O'Brien, which was a comedy spot of the day. And, you know, I had to be pulled up 30 days, and I mean one day, and somebody brought me when I was up up there and, you know, having to go and stay, you know, having been dropped down. [01:45:00] Um, but yeah, it it was a very weird same because I guess I've been using humour. Um, I had a training role for a bit at the commission, and I had done root shops previously, and I'd use humour in those. And I [01:45:30] remember again as a child and teenager growing up that I would use humour is a way of, uh, I, I guess. Keep him most people to see that I was intelligent. I mean, the really dumb people didn't get the job, so it didn't work, [01:46:00] but, um, but it was a tool that I'd always used to, you know, But, you know made people feel comfortable, made people realise that I wasn't stupid and that sort of thing. So my first gig and I I just dread to think what it was like because, you know, I mean, in the first [01:46:30] pulp comedy, um, then in the morning to, um But, I mean, it just I just remember going on stage. My first line was I live in Venda and kind of And I knew that, like [01:47:00] I said that because I knew that people were probably going to think I was gonna refuse to be in a wheelchair. And it just it got this huge laugh that I just had and, um and yeah, I just It worked. And so I got asked back [01:47:30] to do more, um, rookie nights. Then I sort of went up to the pro nights, got paid 20 bucks. Um, and then I make, uh, Mandy and she you know, um, I think you're good. Do you want to be on TV? Don't say no, because [01:48:00] you took lots of books. You take lots of boxes on the New Zealand on here for no. So you, um and it it just you know, uh, it just kind of. Well, it's one of those things that just happened. And, um, [01:48:30] it it was a John Lennon moment. You know, life is what happened where he was making other plans, you know? So I had this idea. I was gonna be a, you know, human rights act, blah, blah. And I ended up actually having to leave the commission partly because they were getting nervous [01:49:00] that my profile was getting too high and, you know, and they were almost asking me to run by what I was gonna say and gig and that sort of thing. So I, I just thought, No, I'm sick of that. Come up. Um, so, yeah, And then Shortland Street was [01:49:30] again a bit of a bit of a excellent, Um funnily enough, the the the character I played was modelled on a friend of mine and was written by a friend of hers. That, um, was a story line for Jordan. And he auditioned [01:50:00] for the part as well and was less than impressed that that I got the part and he he didn't, um and I actually, you know, I've been trying to I've gotten some VHS footage somewhere that I need to get digitised. But I remember thinking the [01:50:30] character was really cool, like because he was a businessman. Um, he was a bit of a but did you know they were brave enough for him to being Waly boyfriend? Um, even though we only ever can noodled which we never [01:51:00] quite worked out what canoodling means. And the director just said, I know to look at each other. Um, and it it looks weird. And for a while, you know, I'm in the SP QR [01:51:30] and the school sat down next to me, and we both were turned around at the same time and she screamed and said, Oh, you go, you know, and it's just like, Whoa, that bizarre. Um, and I went through a bit of a stage of, um I [01:52:00] guess being recognised quite a lot. And, um, there were days when I wouldn't go out because I couldn't be both looking good. Um, but it it was fun, and I got sick of it, and it was very, um, [01:52:30] the comedy thing particularly. I found with the opposite of respect and human rights and, you know, treating people decently and I would have to go on after Mike, Can you be making homophobic jokes and, you know, and [01:53:00] and sort of win the crowd back and stuff like that and in in some ways, I think it made me quite resilient. And it probably made me get over myself a bit in terms of being a, you know, a human rights at this [01:53:30] because, um, I did get the the the whole, um, the whole dilemma of censorship and, you know, and sort of, um, the right of artists to free speech and that sort of thing. So So why are [01:54:00] you I felt a front. I also felt well, you know, where where do you draw the line? If I start saying to Mike and you can't make gay jokes because I'm gay, um, you know, the once you begin having those conversations, that's the slippy [01:54:30] and who, well, who you know who have the right to say in it. So I think it taught me to be slightly less sincere. And, um, what I realised quickly is that it it would would have been easier, quite easy for me to use being a comedian [01:55:00] to educate people about human rights and discrimination. But What I realised is that when I if I went on stage with that intention, um, people felt they've been there to be entertained, not be lectured about how the world should be. Um, [01:55:30] if people were educated as a result, that was great. But I couldn't use comedy as, um, a channel to to push a political agenda. Or if I did, it had to be really Well, um, well, um [01:56:00] what? What? What I like about what I do now is that I talk about serious stuff in a humorous way, and, um and that works really well because people get something that if they were to be so it's a it's an add on. Um, So I think [01:56:30] And, you know, I wrote, um, a blog up to the where I said in a way that 20 minutes with the most, like, every aspect of my life from, you know, growing up and, you know, being a being interested [01:57:00] society and, you know, idea about the then how we read as well as being able to bring that together into an entertaining 20 minute talk in the two thousands. You did a lot of public speaking. Um both nationally and internationally. How were you received in different countries? Was it similar, [01:57:30] or was it different in terms of your reception, a lot of what I did have to say was around, um disability art and a little bit in Australia around and queer Arts and with the the in in life. Um, and [01:58:00] I guess England and Australia were were probably where I felt most comfortable and I, I think the the mind the, um, was the most similar to New Zealand. Um, you know, [01:58:30] being being in England was great. I mean, it was like I. I didn't go back to be and to to go back to where I was born and go Oh, shit. Like this is why I like baked beans. Because everything's bloody. So for baked beans, you know, and kind of going on [01:59:00] a on that the English You all right there, over here? Um, and really enjoyed the sort of awareness of disability activism. Um, the social model of disability, which, [01:59:30] you know, 10 years ago, I subscribed to the social model disease society, disabled people, um, rather than people with impairments are as normal. Um And so it was really cool to be working with and talking with, um, people that really [02:00:00] got that and were really quiet, quite connected in a way that we're not in New Zealand, because we're such a small population, um, and Australia. I mostly was in Adelaide, and there's something wonderful about Adelaide where there's quite a bit of little [02:00:30] queer, disabled, freakish art scene. Um, which it's really includes that, um, And again, I think it's partly not sure what the population is. It's probably about the same or maybe a bit smaller. Um, but I think because it such it has such a conservative, [02:01:00] um, element. There's this little sub of underbelly that, um, that I've never experienced anywhere else in the world, actually. Um, so So again, I I performed and sort of spoke at forums and stuff like that over there, um, America [02:01:30] doing comedy a few times. Hard work. Um, you know, they just the humour is different. I think I Yeah, just different. And, you know, I remember talking at a, um a conference [02:02:00] on spirituality with Clare, and we were just we were just sort of amazed that they contributed to them and, um, yeah, just just the the the the narrow thinking of the people we know with the competence on sexuality and disability. And [02:02:30] we were we were talking about sex surrogates and people were getting up and leaving the room. And, you know, So, um and probably the worst experience or the most weird was speaking in Belgium to a group of French people [02:03:00] having enough French. So I study it up to stage one to know basically what people were saying but not being able to speak it and doing this talk with this woman, rely and hearing her say completely different [02:03:30] stuff that I would say and thinking, My God, you were editing you. It was and she wasn't a trained interpreter, but it was It was just very bizarre thing stopping, listening to her faith and in French and thinking. But yeah, I mean, it made me think about, for example, [02:04:00] people that use sign language interpreters and and that sort of thing and and how, How one how important it is for that, um, for that stuff to be done well and and you know, there's a the the thing of respect to actually resource that which you know again. I don't [02:04:30] think we do that. Well, um, in New Zealand with finding work. Um, but I guess here it did sort of take me back to that whole thing about people that can't they can use devices or do use people to to communicate on their behalf. And and Yeah, it is. It is like a really, um [02:05:00] it's and trust. And, um and I thought I and let him go, I guess on the other. And then if I had stopped and said I didn't say that, You know, I don't think you would have interpreted it [02:05:30] like this in the two thousands. You were also kind of, um, solidifying the the the whole kind of social change maker type things, like with diversity works the trust. Can you Can you talk to me about that? Well, um I can, um, something that almost happened [02:06:00] in some ways. Not without me, but not as a result of great planning. And I remember talking to, um or hearing see Ken Robbins and say that you know, people always say, you know, did you plan to get what to get to where you are now? And he said no I I've [02:06:30] never made a plan or goal in my life. You know, I've just things have prevented themselves, and I've gone yes or no. And, you know, and I think in some ways, that's been the same for me. So So when I left the commission in 98 I guess the the only [02:07:00] sort of impacting decision I made which could be a goal was that, um I decided not to go back on to a benefit. So I went from earning, I think, about 800 bucks a week to earning nothing over night, which was incredibly [02:07:30] scary, but incredibly exhilarating and challenging, you know? And, you know, I what I've seen and I've heard other people say that that's kind of a test of the good stuff in life to be shit scared and excited at the same time, you're probably doing the right [02:08:00] thing or a right thing. Um and so I guess for the first three years, um, you know, I would literally wake up on Monday morning and think shit if I don't get a woot shot this way to do a work. And, um, at that point, I would charge, you [02:08:30] know, 100 and 50 bucks to do a half day. Um, if I don't get one or two that we I didn't know what I how I pay the rent stuff. And I sort of I've always had the thing with money that I believe that it will be there when I need it, and [02:09:00] and And it always has been. And and it was in that time, so I would just get a phone call from someone. So can you come and do a work? So, um, never been good at promoting myself. Hated filling myself. Um went to a couple of business coaches [02:09:30] who just kind of stared at me blankly and said, I don't know what you do, but you seem to be doing OK, so just keep doing what you're doing, and they'd run me out the door. Um, and I, I guess just over time it's changed, you know? I think, [02:10:00] um, having the the entertainment stuff, the the speaking, the running job, doing the writing, um, having that portfolio skills again, I'm quite sort of well documented. That that's a good way to be self-employed. Um [02:10:30] and you know, for six years, um, it's It's quite funny because the doing pulp comedy like years and I was like it would roll around and we get and we get about two grand and I was like, Wow, that's such a lot of money, you know? And it was It was sort of like, [02:11:00] Ah, you know, I'll get round to pop comedy And then there'll be 10 weeks where I won't need to think too much about getting work. Um, and I ca I can't remember. I think, uh, what what happened was in 1995 I bought some artists [02:11:30] from Canada, America and the UK, which were really my mate that I met at other festivals. And we ran a one week disability arts festival down at down the road. And, um, we teamed up with, um, another guy that [02:12:00] had a charitable trust and as often that kind of thing does, it all went shit and and we did. The festival was great, but, um, it didn't work using somebody else's umbrella. So, um, a couple of things and I just decided to start up the [02:12:30] boot works class really as a vehicle to get funding from philanthropic and government agencies, which you can't do with a business, which again is quite a, um, a limiting thing in New Zealand that we have this [02:13:00] notion that, um, a a profit making organisation can't be funded to do anything that's socially, um, for the good. But, you know, businesses that are almost deliberately doing harm can get hundreds of $1000 [02:13:30] of business R and D funding And that sort of but get on today. So, um, so we set that up, and it's just been travelling along, um, and again then that opportunity thing of mainly, um, things [02:14:00] coming to us from us necessarily going out to to do things we did. We tried to, um, do, um, another bigger the symposium type thing. Um, in 9, 2009, and it was, um [02:14:30] it was around the time the financial crisis believe it was good. And, um, we didn't get a whole lot of funding. We've been not promise but lead to believe that we would get um, and we actually ended up accidentally on the front page of the hero as [02:15:00] a victim of the the the financial crisis, which was a bit embarrassing because of the thunder, but with those sort of kind of, you know, all public, good public. So we had to scale a full day international event to be held at Sky [02:15:30] City down to a one day event in which was kind of sad. But, you know, it was just how it was. And and I again I blogged about it being like, um, stopping a 10 tonne crack on ice because literally, we had [02:16:00] hundreds of people, um, all around the world waiting for the event, and we had to put it at the last minute. And, you know, we had people saying they were going to sue us because they bought nonrefundable tickets, plane tickets and stuff. So we had to go back and say politely, [02:16:30] You're an international touring company. Why would you buy a nonrefundable ticket? You know, um, and so again, that that that was great learning in terms of how you manage a, you know, a failure and come out but looking. OK, [02:17:00] um, and we managed to make it into an online project, and and it was it was good, I think, um, through through that I was invited to do a a one year, um, creative Rene programme through the arts through new [02:17:30] and at the same time begin a three year social entrepreneur Fellowship. So, um, it was sort of like it was a bit like the 1999 thing of pulp comedy in Shortland Street. Suddenly it was just, you know, suddenly I was doing these two programmes [02:18:00] one looking at creativity and one looking at social change and And what? What they've ended up given me with this, Um I guess insight that actually C create creative innovation is always, um [02:18:30] it always happens around the social, um or or a feeling of of the need to create some sort of social change or or some sort of social awareness And similarly social innovation is in itself highly creative. And And, um [02:19:00] so I guess through that three year period, um, I got really interested in working in spaces that combine social change, creativity and diversity in some way, and that that's where we are the the trust now. [02:19:30] So we project based and all our, uh, they they kind of have to at least two and hopefully three elements of the diversity create to pretend change. And we've recently begun partnering with other organisations to be [02:20:00] an umbrella so that people can run projects but not to set up or the infrastructure of a charitable organisation. So part of my time is, rather than that or just holding it. I don't know if I'm around it. Um and I also work for [02:20:30] be accessible to the social change enterprise, looking at accessibility from the wider perspective. So raising awareness that you know, people with disability parents are praying older people all need [02:21:00] access. So when you look at that from a tourism point of view or even just, uh, economic point of view, acceptability is you know, we we've, um, dubbed it the the yellow dollar, Um, sort of after the pink dollar, because the bee, the bee accessible [02:21:30] brand, is yellow but really saying to businesses, by being accessible or at least telling people what to expect. Um, when they come to your store or ring your call centre or use your website by letting people know what to speak, you're more likely to generate business [02:22:00] from that that market segment and um within that we run a leadership programme. So I co directed with Lucy, who is run in New Zealand. Um, and between those two, that's four of mine. So I've [02:22:30] gone from that sort of stable human rights commission. Then through the Oh, my God, Will I eat two in the last couple of years ago? Yeah. I will eat quite well, I think. OK?
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