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So my name is Peter Lineham, and I've just concluded a period of seven years as chair of Auckland Community Church. And, um, I've been involved in Auckland Community Church for 13 years now. Uh, which is not anything like the whole life of the church, of course, but like a lot of people, I became involved in Auckland Community Church at the point when my church community was growing extremely suspicious of me and I was being edged [00:00:30] out. Um, I was later to be kicked out, but I was originally edged out and I needed somewhere safe to go. And I remember the first time I actually first time I went to Metropolitan Community Church, which was then meeting in Pitt Street Methodist Church and I went there. And while the people were very friend, it wasn't just it felt a little bit. There were some some unusual factors. And so the next week I went to Auckland Community Church, [00:01:00] felt very at home, and, um, had been going every week ever since. Basically, when you say suspicions for with your previous church what I mean, what were they what were they saying or doing? So I was I belong to an Open Brethren Church. So this is a fundamentalist or a conservative church, although within the Brethren Spectrum, one of the most open churches around and they were about any person [00:01:30] with even a gay identity because that was defiling and they were anxious that, uh, even the identity would lead to sexual involvement. And they were most concerned at the risk of that. And, um, at a very early stage, I went to a function at Saint Luke's re era, which were a photograph and a photograph. [00:02:00] I was in a photograph in Express, and I was It was in a church building, but this photograph was passed on from somebody in the Brethren Movement to the elders at Eden at the at the At the Brethren Church, um, of which I had just finished being chair of it. Do you understand? And this photograph was produced as evidence that I was dangerous property. I pointed out I was at a church service, but that didn't seem to make a great [00:02:30] deal of difference. So that was That was the kind of risk involved that there's a fair measure of high alarm that anybody would mingle with gay people now. There were a lot of exceptions to that individually. But as an organisation, that was their That was their stance. What was that like for you personally knowing that that somebody's actually, you know, trying to kind of oust you from from a a church? It's an [00:03:00] extraordinarily difficult experience. It's a tangled and confusing experience. It was made much worse because for reasons that I do not fully understand, a young man, newly married man in the church made an extraordinary accusation that I had tried to kiss him at Massey University and this was a complete fabrication. But of course, that made my position even more untenable. And so [00:03:30] the church, which always did things very properly, um, sort of set up an investigating committee. So it was a very uncomfortable position for me. Um, and what I found was that I had set up on my bicycle to go to church, and most of the time I couldn't make it there. I just I just couldn't get there. And if I did get there, I spent I would just sit and basically [00:04:00] cry through the services, so that was the sort of thing that was going on. And this is me, you know, a fairly stable, sensible sort of person. So it was a difficult scene and I had great support from people within that church. But that didn't prevent the structure. And finally, But this was somewhat later, Fi, I Finally, when Kevin appeared on the scene, I was given a letter which said we'd like you to change churches and we'd like to send [00:04:30] a message to the church. You're going to saying that you're a wonderful person and we totally support you, but we're unable to give you any pastoral support. Uh, so it was a kind of excommunication, and that's OK. I mean, that they did it in a very nice way. So I changed to Ponsonby Baptist and All Saints Church in the morning because I'm a pretty churchy person. But I'd already been involved for a long time. By that stage in Auckland Community Church. Where does your involvement with the church in general come from? So I'm raised. [00:05:00] You have to understand the Brethren. The Brethren is a is a world. It's it's not. It's not religion. It's your world. So if you're raised as I was in a Brethren family in a small country community and all your relations and the church. That's what that's that is, on the whole, your life. And you live in that world and you step outside it to some extent. And but you're confident in stepping outside that you've got a secure base [00:05:30] from which you can step outside it. And I mean, I had fine parents who and in the end, although there was a few changes of church along the way find support of churches that were very happy for me to step outside it on the basis that it was, you know, it was a secure place inside. Um, but clearly, you know, there are some limits around that, and that's just the way it is. So what was it like? I mean, if if your whole life is based around this to to then suddenly [00:06:00] not have it there or to have people actually kind of trying to push you away. Oh, I mean, this is a traumatic experience. Um, very, very, very difficult. You understand that I was also one of the best known figures in the evangelical world at the time, so I was on the board of the Bible, College of New Zealand of Script Union in New Zealand of tertiary students Christian Fellowship, um, et cetera, a tier fund. And they all asked me to leave their boards [00:06:30] or Yeah, I offered my resignation, and they enthusiastically accepted it. So I mean, that was all part of this is all part of the process of, uh uh and, uh, funny enough, I was doing some research over in the LA College Library reading the old copies of Challenge magazine, uh, which is the evangelical or fundamentalist magazine. And I discovered I'd written a letter defending gay issues to the Maga to the magazine. What? I not being a regular reader of this magazine? I wasn't aware of [00:07:00] an astonishing string of letters that followed. Um, I was trying to investigate my current book on Destiny Church, but I found I was investigating the way that I was excluded. Basically. See, that's not I understand that I mean, I was a high profile person, so that was sort of more more evident, maybe than for most. But for anybody in a Catholic or in an evangelical or conservative Christian background, [00:07:30] that's the experience they'll have. And there is an enormous feeling of being orphaned, you know, and really losing your place in the world. And it's a very curious situation to be in during times of things like, uh, gay liberation in the seventies, the homosexual law reform in the eighties. Did that kind of stuff have impact on you and your relationship with the Brethren? Uh, yes. [00:08:00] But I kept a low profile in that period. I mean, I watched in, in, in Christchurch and and in Palmerston North, these things were not quite as prominent, shall we say, as as they were in Auckland and I played a a quiet role, shall we say in in these circumstances, I was actually overseas in the year of law reform and on a on a leave, So I was almost totally unaware of of some of those things going on. Well, I mean, I was aware from a distance, but when I came [00:08:30] back, it was all over and done and dusted. So I was away from mid 1985 to mid 1996. You see, did you ever have any internal conflict between the the the kind of religious elements or your religious life and and homosexuality. Oh, well, of course, there was an awful lot to sort out. But, I mean, I've been sorting it out for my whole life, you know? You understand. And that's often true of a lot of gay people, uh, with religious backgrounds that there's a constant debate. [00:09:00] I didn't, you know, go through the experience that a lot of my friends seem to have gone through of self hatred. Um, II, I I'm intrigued that I basically accepted who I was sometimes found a curious set of sort of non contentious words for it. Um, you know, I wasn't inclined to get married or, you know, sort of strange things like this, Um, which, uh, afterwards I discovered that everybody knew my cover, but I didn't know that at [00:09:30] the time, you know, And I think they were quite content as long as you didn't use words that that were sort of dangerous. And I think that that's the way it goes there. That's the curious ambiguity of sometimes churches that certain words are dangerous. And if you can choose other words, they're not dangerous. [00:10:00] Very strange. Can you give me some examples. Oh, I think around I I If you take the whole issue of marriage, breakups and the like Similarly, you know, so long as you can somehow be, be the good party in a in a marriage break up or so long as in one sense or another, you can show due humility about what has happened. People are surprisingly, will willing [00:10:30] to accommodate that. And I think the reason for that is that typically, even fundamentalist Church is a bit like Catholic churches. Take a fairly ordinary sample of people you know. They're not particularly an educated group. They're they're, yeah, average communities who are who are very keen to attract people to come to their services. And so they come with lots and lots of staff, and what [00:11:00] they want is for people not to cause trouble by their past. So So as long as you've sorted your past out, you know it's OK to have a past, but it's not OK if it's a present, you see, and that's the complexity of the situation. What was it like then to go to a church that had kind of lots of openly gay people in it? Well, I mean, I can recall very vividly the first Sunday because, strangely enough, I had been leading [00:11:30] Auckland Community Church meets in the evening. Most churches don't meet in the evening. So it was kind of convenient. I could escape without anybody sort of knowing I was there. And the thing was, when I got there that Sunday night, I immediately recognised about four people, including some with a Brethren connection and one who'd even been in the service where I had actually been leading the service that Sunday [00:12:00] morning in in the church. And I felt like bright lights were on me and tape recorders were on me and I was exposed, and this was incredibly dangerous. And then I realised well, but then that must be true of them as well. Um, and that was a really quite quite surreal moment in some ways. But I realised that a lot of people there were kind of there because you [00:12:30] could get away with being there, and you might well have a double life. I'm not. I've never been comfortable with a double life, you understand? So I mean I. I was not frightened to tell people I was going to Auckland Community Church. They weren't comfortable to hear it. Um, but, uh so that was quite interesting even today, you know, at a community church, we get people who make it as far as the door, but won't come in and sit down because they're very, very nervous of being seen. So that [00:13:00] is a That's the kind of extent to which there can be powerful coercive pressures. So tell me about that first service. How How was it for you? Oh, I mean, I. I think the service was pretty much like all Auckland Community Church services. Not exactly exciting. I mean, Auckland Community Church does a kind of pseudo Anglican service. And I mean, to my mind, it's not how any decent religious service should be at all. I mean, I would like something much more lively and engaging. [00:13:30] I would like sermons that people find interesting and that they touch on hot issues and that they sort of go inside your being. But a good deal of Auckland Community Church is saying, um, sang a liturgy, Um, and, uh, listening to a somewhat, you know, one of these Anglican style sermons, which is usually you know 15 minutes long, um, and usually says nothing at all very much, and I found this tedious in the extreme. But then [00:14:00] we went, as we always do at a community church, into a stood in a circle for communion. And after you receive communion, you are embraced by the person who's given you communion, and the person who's come to you prays for you. And at that moment, I realised there was something very deeply affirming that they were affirming me for me and accepting me from the very outset, and I found that as many people have found at Auckland Community Church, [00:14:30] that's that's a very, very moving part of the service. Um, and so that was all right and I didn't go back to. I mean, I went back to the other church in the morning, but this immediately became important to me. Can you describe the congregation? What's the makeup? The A Community Church congregation changes quite a lot as circumstances develop, but it's typically people who I mean predominantly. [00:15:00] For a start, they're single. This is quite an interesting aspect to Auckland Community Church. Quite a lot of them, like a lot of churches are older, so they're over 50. Um, and quite a lot of them have known each other for a long, long time. And there's a friendship and support and community there are. So that's one group when people become couples, I mean by and large, there's only two or three couples where the couples [00:15:30] come regularly to church. My partner cannot stand Auckland Community Church and he will come on occasions. But he he can do a very funny take off of ah man. And he just goes into hysterics of laughter. Whereas he quite enjoys poo be Baptist, which from his Chinese background is kind of more familiar. And he's more comfortable with that. Um, but and and and he does this very funny thing where he says, Holy, holy, holy! And he thinks that's just [00:16:00] so funny. Um, and so he finds the liturgy absurd. And I think to my that's part of the problem of all community church. It's into a warp, which it does need to get out of in some ways. And I think one of the brilliant things about Vaughn is the new chair is that he is gonna try and not just out of that. I tried for seven years and found it very difficult. We've made a little bit of progress, not enough now. So there's that aspect then. Secondly, a bit more about the community. Then we always have these [00:16:30] people who come in and need Auckland Community Church for what you might call their transition into identifying themselves as GL BT people. And the church can help them immensely now. Typically, those people we we don't see them for for a long time. You know, we we help them for, say, three or four months, and then they're ready to stand on their own. They find a partner, they become more confident in going to [00:17:00] the clubs or something like that. And the religion that's been used to help them suppress their identity now isn't necessary to them. And that's fun. I mean, I because I think sometimes religion keeps people from discovering themselves. I mean, it shouldn't do that, but sometimes that's and that's all right, because they need to move on. So many a person in that context has come and visited me here in my house and has wanted to talk over the Bible verses that attack gay people and we've sat and [00:17:30] talked and gone through it because what I am very anxious about is what you might call the suicide threat for the person who feels that they've committed the unforgivable sin. Uh, they've had sex with a person of the same, um, agenda, and they're going to be cursed and something vile is gonna happen to them. And they they loathe themselves and they want to hear. Are these verses going to destroy me? You know, am I going to be bashed by God who is so angry with me at the moment? [00:18:00] And yet I need this. I want this. I found something about myself that I needed to find out and I I knew it, but I didn't know what to do with it. And quite a lot of young people are in that context, and I go through the verses with them, and I suggest there's others ways to look at these verses, and I suggest that we're not bound up by Old Testament rules which were given for a totally different purpose, and and after a while, that gets through to them and they become more confident in themselves and If there's [00:18:30] a real rich faith in them, they'll they'll find a church which will accept them as they are, um, or they'll stay at a community church. But quite a lot of them are young and they'll they'll break through that, and that's fine. And there's been some wonderful stories about people who've made a fantastic transition, and I keep up with them on and off. But they're not anywhere near Auckland Community Church now, and they probably laugh a bit about Auckland Community Church. And when they get when they get a partner, I mean, [00:19:00] Sunday night's far too good to give up. You know, that's their last chance to get ready for the week. So So it doesn't work for them either. So I think, and I think the third thing is culturally in terms of relevance. You know, we're still in the hymn singing mode, and I do think this is, I mean, who sings hymns these days. I mean, the churches that I went to were far more culturally on the wavelength of young people. They knew what music young people liked, [00:19:30] and they produced their own Christian version of that music, and I think see. Part of the absurdity of this whole situation is, I reckon, for example, I mean, I'm not Pentecostal, but I do think the Pentecostal style of worship is quite gay, you know? And I think you know, a lot of gay people love dancing, and they love getting into it and things like that. And and this is why a lot of them remain undercover in Pentecostal churches because it's totally their scene. And I had one man who came [00:20:00] to see me here, and he went to a certain, uh, well known Pentecostal church in town. And I talked and talked to him and I nearly I thought I'd got through. And then I received an email from him saying, Please remove all details about me from your phone. That's all right. But you see, it wasn't right for him because nothing had changed. He was going out having [00:20:30] casual sex in the bog, you know? I mean, that was his way of finding the escape. So what was what was good about that? And I mean, this is the tragic situation that you've got to deal with who you are, and Auckland Community Church stands for really part of the whole pride thing of the GL BT community that there is nothing to be ashamed of. Here is where we should be. And here this GL BT community [00:21:00] needs us because discovering that you're gay does not solve all your problems. You know, you've still got that loneliness or the bit when your partner leaves you or the bit when things are tough and you're on your own. And it's still got the kind of issues of faith still nagging around inside. And we say the two's gotta be brought together. Got a bit carried away there. But so So you came to the [00:21:30] the Auckland Community Church in the early 2000 in 2000. Prior to that, um, do you do you know the history? I do know the history of Auckland Community Church because I'm a historian. I'm kind of fascinated by this story. One day I'm gonna write it up and I've sort of started a couple of times and given up. But there is quite a good history on our website by one of our previous members who's gone overseas now. Um and I mean it is a fascinating story because this is before law reform. It all begins, so it begins [00:22:00] a bit about Saint Matthews will make sense of this. Saint Matthews was always the kind of risque church, Um, but it was a down in the dumps rundown church in the days when nobody lived in the central city and so and before the before the advent of the casino. So there was talk of bulldozing Saint Matthew's down that beautiful church. But the thing was, it's it's stone, and the limestone had the [00:22:30] seeped with water, and it was sort of in real risk of falling down. And there was AAA vicar brought in from Australia, who started this kind of radical line. He had once been a very strong and impassioned low church centre of Auckland, which fancied itself as the Auckland Cathedral. But they built a cathedral somewhere else. And, um so that was about that time and all this was going on. And so I [00:23:00] he was on the side of causes. And remember, this was the seventies and early eighties when causes were all around and people were fighting the Rainbow Warrior. You know, there was all this stuff going on the nuclear nuclear Free Pacific and so that the Mr Matthews was engaged in that. And they started noticing that a group of gay men had been coming along quite quietly to the service. And so an invitation went out. [00:23:30] Um, now I think a request went in, saying, Could we would you be prepared for us to get together? And so they asked for one of the clergy at Saint Matthew's to meet with them on a weekly basis for a little kind of group. They could sit and talk, and this group began in the early eighties so slowly, this little group was nurtured into shape [00:24:00] and as it slowly began to form and hold these events, I think down in the basement of Saint Matthew's as I understand it. And it was meeting regularly in that in that period, then came about discussion about whether they could begin to hold a hold a service. And really, this was extraordinarily courageous of the church to authorise that on Sunday nights in the main church at [00:24:30] Saint Matthew's, they would hold a GL BT service sponsored by the church itself. But open to any of the GL BT people of Auckland, Well, you can imagine at that stage when I mean, what was there there were There were these famous gay night clubs, but not much on Sunday night. So you had, you know, old drag queens, and you had a very colourful assortment of people turning up and coming along to the service, [00:25:00] and everybody was nervous about police raids. But in fact, I don't think there was ever much this was at the stage when, um I mean, what would they accuse people of they were just meeting for a church service. So, um, but of course, there was a lot of criticism from surrounding churches who wanted nothing to do with it. But then came law reform. And so from the time of law reform, it was much more easy to hold these public services. And there began to be discussions with a number of key people, Benton [00:25:30] and the like. And to hold to that that perhaps Saint Matthews could actually designate someone as the kind of pastor of this church. So they with the vicar of Saint Matthew's part of it, they began setting up a little council to run these services. And then they heard of Metropolitan Community Church, um, in the States. So this is interesting. Troy Perry had come [00:26:00] out. I was reading a book about this the other day. Troy Perry came out and and started the Metropolitan Community Church even before Stonewall. So what date is Stonewall or 80? No, no, no, No. 6. 70 69 16. I think he wrote it in 69 and it was 70 that stonewall or something like that. But it was a year beforehand. So MC C by this stage had developed quite a reputation. [00:26:30] So they invited and made contact with MC C, which by this stage had a presence in Australia. So MC C said it was willing to send in effect a missionary to look after this church community. And so that brought about the next stage in the story of gay Christians at worship in in Auckland. So the group a pastor was sent from, uh uh [00:27:00] the states and he came out and services seem to continue as normal. And then they discovered quite a sharp divergency. I mean, MC C is is a separate denomination. It ordains its own clergy. It isn't, you know I mean it. It it. You run by the MC C rules. Now, these folk, of course, were a kind of branch of an Anglican church, and they were pulling in all the sympathetic clergy. And there were [00:27:30] a lot of sympathetic clergy from around the town who loved coming to Auckland Community Church because it was their statement of support of the queer community. So there were rumblings. And then the concerned people, I think, went to the at Saint Matthew's and Sat. Mathews was quite concerned to hear that, in effect, they were actually sponsoring a separatist church community. So there was a showdown in 1979 [00:28:00] I think was the date. So the MC C folk, with their very lovely pastor, moved to, um Pitt Street Methodist and the group that remained behind organised themselves as Auckland Community Church. And that was the beginning of it. Um, in 1980 yeah, and so that church was with the cooperation of ministers [00:28:30] throughout Auckland and money fed in by the Presbyterians. This is a nice irony when you think of how the Presbyterians have ended up today, um, as well as support from from the Anglican Church and resolutions passed in the Auckland Synod and of support. Um uh, and with one of the Presbyterian ministers seconded to be part-time, pastor of the community, um began when reverted to to a form of worship where it would always be [00:29:00] clergy from a variety of backgrounds. No, there was no, There was no denomination that you belong to. You didn't give up your old identity, and the service was kind of eclectically like any any conservative but liberal church community. And that's the beginnings of the Auckland community Church story. Now, now, uh, to be fair to MC C they carried on meeting at Pitt Street and I saw them in Pitt Street in 2000, but they subsequently [00:29:30] moved to the the Friends Meeting House and are much, much smaller than they were. But during for many long years, Doug McGee, former Salvation Army officer um, was their pastor and, um Part-time pastor. And we've always had good and friendly relationships and often held one combined service a year. As I said, they they're much smaller today, and we've tended to grow, um, or remain stable in size. They're always changing over, Of course, [00:30:00] um, for the reasons I said so that's a bit of a interesting story. So are you also saying that prior to Auckland Community Church, well, and and also the MC C part as well in the late seventies, there was no other kind of, um, out, uh, gay worship group. Precisely that precisely that. But But of course, you will appreciate that This was [00:30:30] the day that these were the days when huge raging debates were taking place on theology and there were liberal churches in all the denominations. So Saint David's in, um Road, Pitt Street, Methodist Uh, Saint Matthew's were the three, along with the Unitarians, that the four maybe big, visible liberal churches that made a point of being [00:31:00] welcoming, um, to gay people, but absolutely no sort of public things. And the early pastors, even of Auckland Community Church were pretty quiet about their own sexuality because they needed to be in good standing with their respective, um, bishops and presbyteries and the like. And they, you know, those matters would have been rather concerning to the presbyteries. It was one thing to support poor gay Christians, you [00:31:30] know, But another thing to how far did you go and support until until law reform, That was the situation and at law at the time of law reform. Um, did the church, uh, actively promote? Oh, you need to understand that Auckland Community Church was one of the cornerstones of the gay world. [00:32:00] And I mean, of course, it wasn't everybody's cup of tea, and there were plenty of violently anti Christian gay people. I mean, there still are. I don't know. You read that extraordinary opinion piece in the In the Herald on Friday, and these sorts of things happen where Christian is everything associated with and with homophobia in this, and there were always people who thought that. But it's very, very interesting in terms of the kind of service sector of the gay community. It's [00:32:30] it's really for a long time, consisted of groups like Outline, Um, and it's in its previous name, um, the AIDS Foundation. And so Auckland Community Church has always been one of those things and see on World Aids Day. It's It's to ST Matthew's that everybody comes for this big combined kind of memorial, and we give up our service for that Sunday night and welcome in a vast crowd of people who wouldn't probably come near us at other times and, [00:33:00] you know, it's We're very much well known within the older parts of the gay community, um, less so the lesbian community. There's an interesting difference in this respect in that for many. I mean, I can't speak for women, but it it it strikes me that many lesbian women who could, perhaps if they chose it's not so unusual for two [00:33:30] women to live together. So if they come out as lesbian, this is This is a radical and political step, and it's it. It may be much more associated with the denouncing of Christianity than for for gay men. Strangely enough, I. I mean, it would take a bit more untangling and a bit more research to work that one out, but, uh, it so we've always had a much larger proportion of men than women in our service. There's always been some women in our service, and [00:34:00] there's always I mean, historically, there were some very, very lovely people from Saint Matthews who were straight but who came regularly to the community, Um, and just were there and were supportive and very encouraging and and very loving you know, and that was wonderful for the community. A lovely couple, Heck and and Peggy were very familiar in the history of the church for many, many years. [00:34:30] And then there were other personalities who could be themselves at Auckland Community Church. But they had another existence as well. And, um so there was the famous case of Doc Martin, um, who was a very familiar former retired evangelical youth worker who was very deeply involved in the church from his retirement onwards. Um, [00:35:00] that would, for family reasons, that was kept to himself. And I think there probably are still people like that. And you were saying that the congregation is growing? Yes, it is quite striking that I mean, all churches have ups and downs, and a gay church has particular ups and downs and ebbs and, uh, and flows. But it did reach a pretty [00:35:30] low state in the early two thousands. And I think part of the factor was that it just got too introverted, you know? And there is a we aspect of of gay sensibility, which kind of adores high church prancing about, and I mean it can reach the point of silliness and especially as young people have no [00:36:00] connection with this. And, um, there was a real turnaround. And this we owe an enormous amount to one of our fine, great members. And that's the Reverend Bob Scott. And Bob Scott is a remarkable man who was outrageously gay, Um, as an Anglican minister for many years and, um, used to shock because you understand those. There was the time when gay people was so outrageous. [00:36:30] And he he was when he was in Auckland, uh was he was a notable figure in the Anglican church, and he shocked them to the core. But this was the time when Paul Reeves was the archbishop and was very, very sympathetic to gay people. And so, um, Archbishop Paul was totally detective and horrified by Bob at the same time. And then Bob went off to the World Council of Churches in Geneva, where he played a very interesting role [00:37:00] there. And then he came back in his retirement to Auckland and didn't like the state of the church. And Bob can say what he thinks and did, and we sorted ourselves out. It was very good for us. Um, so you know, you've got that aspect. And I mean, I have noticed that some of the service organisations of the gay community anyway have tended to decline. And I think one of the reasons for this is there isn't so strong a gay [00:37:30] community as there used to be. You know, once upon a time the gay community was nurtured in adversity and there were these great moments of pride and the hero parades when the gay community defied the world and the the Auckland Community Church donned angel wings and pranced down and slightly lewd, slightly fun, slightly outrageous singing hymns in a state of semi undress. You know, um, down the street, [00:38:00] um, challenging and shocking people. But the whole hero parade was a bit like that, you know, And there was this nurtured sense of community identity and adversity. Now, of course, it's now a very comfortable thing to be gay. And I mean, some of us have reflected that the recent pride march is a bit of an indication because, you know, the pride March went on agreement that it would be a nice acceptable for families to attend. No nudity. No, you know nothing to shock everything respectable and and and and nice. [00:38:30] And it was and it was delightful fun, you know? Um but But in such circumstances, to be honest, the gay world is now just a market. You know, like a lot of communities in New Zealand, of course, but the gay community is strikingly so is is a market that people target because the gay dollar is great to try to get people to spend. And it's especially for young gay people. It's just a great big consumer [00:39:00] consumer game where you know you, you go around and and plant and yourself, and, uh, it's as empty and vacuous as they come. In some ways, uh, and so quite a number of those warm, caring, community focused organisations have found it very hard because there's not many volunteers coming forward to do things. And I think we had to turn a corner and say, we really [00:39:30] can't afford just, uh, stick within ourselves. You've got to become outward looking and say we actually we need to speak to people by whatever means to remind them that we're here and to say that you you need us, you you will need us, and we're gonna be here and we're gonna serve you and we're gonna try and make a difference. [00:40:00] So that's been That's our I think our key philosophy not done perfectly. However, since 2000, I mean, there have been times where it has been uncomfortable. I'm thinking of things like civil unions and true like when destiny Church was was marching against civil unions. And I guess, um how did the Auckland Community Church react to something like destiny? OK, so I mean, without any doubt, this was great [00:40:30] for Auckland Community Church because that gave us a sense that we have got to be out in the face of this. So, in fact, Bob Scott went down to see Brian Tamaki and to tell him what it was like when they got that kind of slander, you know, throw it up in the face of it. Um, and others were very engaged. And on civil unions, we were extremely involved. And when the then archbishop of the Anglican Church said he wished there was a world without gays, [00:41:00] we wrote a public letter to Archbishop when all the rest of the church was saying, Be nice, you know, he's just a doddery old man. But that's not acceptable behaviour for a church to act like this. It's appalling. And so when, especially for the sake of those for whom it would become words too dangerous. So we needed to speak. And, of course, one of the concerning features. And maybe this is perhaps why a gay church can remain a bit more vigorous than the regular community [00:41:30] is, although in the regular community, gays are now very accepted and indeed even desired. To some extent, this isn't entirely true in the general church. There are plenty of churches, and indeed, sometimes I think there are more churches that are quite uncomfortable with gay people, at least in their public statements. Of course, they'll often say other things to your face, Um, but their actions, their public actions show that they're [00:42:00] nervous that the congregations are conservative. It's interesting that young people in ordinary churches have a different outlook, seem to be reasonably comfortable, Um, because they've been helped by the public school, you know, system and the like, uh, which has done great things for helping people to think differently. But you know, the Presbyterian Church, which was once very supportive is now. You know, basically has said that any gay ministers, [00:42:30] um, no new gay ministers will be allowed. The Anglican Church has a moratorium, which means that anybody in a relationship will not be considered for ministry in the Anglican church, with the exception of 111 diocese and not not in Auckland. So the result is that in terms of currently, gay ministers are getting older and older. So, you know, we we struggle a bit to find ministers. On the other hand, we're nurturing in our [00:43:00] community plenty of good people who can do lots of stuff. And I think we just at, you know, there's some challenges ahead of us. Um, but that's all right. Maybe we need those challenges to sort of make us think differently on a personal level. How did civil unions affect you and and and things like the destiny Church marches. Oh, well, I mean, I think that was actually really, really beneficial because you can't remain silent in the face of this kind of junk. And it was absolutely [00:43:30] essential that I, you know, Mark my different standing point, my different point of view. And so I led the submission that Auckland Community Church made for the civil unions bill. And as I said then and I think it's highly relevant to the marriage legislation now, um, so do you. Would you Would you prefer gay people to have as much casual sex as they possibly can? Um, you don't want stable relationships you prefer, [00:44:00] you know, bursts of sin followed by bouts of of guilt. Um, is is that your idea of healthy society? Surely on your own logic, on your own logic, you should want stable, stable relationships because they're healthier than people sleeping around and and picking up whatever. And, um, you know, that that was a point that I have made strongly in a number of contexts. And the church, I think, has you know, much as [00:44:30] I have been been very much nurtured by that sense of we we mustn't be too nice, you know, there is a bit of a risk of being too nice. I mean, I'm a naturally nice person, so I don't like being in your face. But there's plenty of people in our church that say to us, Look, don't let them away with it. And I think that's a good point. It's also really interesting that a couple of years ago, the, [00:45:00] um, Saint Matthew and the City billboards started making headlines in terms of, um, just being very provocative. Um, talk to me about that. How how do they come about? Of course, there's a very funny aspect, Gareth, to this whole story of the Saint Matthews billboards because ST Matthew's actual born congregation is not that large, you know, I mean, the days of liberal Christianity having a big following are, you know, well and truly behind [00:45:30] us now. And so Saint Matthews is helped by being in such a very prominent place and being gloriously restored with the help of the casino. And, um, you know, lots of aspects like that, and so it's It's in a key position and it, but it's a It's a very strange combination, because all around now Saint Matthews are apartment blocks filled with overseas students who are not particularly interested in religion. And then there's still the city mission next door with the homeless [00:46:00] and the needy, many of whom come into our services on Sunday night to keep warm, um, and have some really weird views about us, and there's often a bit of de demarcation disputes going on there, and we work hard on it. But it's it's It's an uncomfortable relationship at points for Saint Matthews. It gives them identity, especially while the Anglican Church remains [00:46:30] still very coy about the whole issue. So in this context, where people are a bit uncomfortable and a bit uncertain, Um, Saint Matthews can wave a pro gay flag and get a sensational international reputation, which indeed was linked to a magazine, AAA, an online magazine, which they put a lot of money into and that was profiled them so that it helped to profile them. But of course, the funny thing about all of this is very, very few [00:47:00] of the evening congregation go to ST Matthew's in the morning, I think a couple of people. And the reason for this, in my view, is quite odd. Effectively, gay Christians tend to have come from conservative backgrounds, and they're not terribly likely to be comfortable with some aspects of Saint Matthew's service. So [00:47:30] we have an amusing situation. Well, you can call it amusing where the type of Christianity of Auckland Community Church is not really the same type as Saint Matthews. But Saint Matthews is very generous to us. And in some ways our congregation, in terms of our core congregation is probably much the same size as ST Matthew's. Um, and we'll always do what we can to support and encourage. And we do. We [00:48:00] do a couple of services together, Um, a year, but we'd be much more Orthodox in our faith than ST Matthew's. We'd share a bit of high high prancing around, you know, stuff if you're so inclined, but not on every Sunday and at times we'd we'd try out better at doing a semi Pentecostal style service, which Saint Matthews rolls their eyes at. And I mean, I campaigned for a while with Saint Matthews that we could have [00:48:30] a big, big PowerPoint screen so that we could, you know, do visual stuff. But you see, Saint Matthews is much committed to a beautiful building, and so that certainly wouldn't suit their style. And but I mean our identity in Saint Matthews. We it's quite interesting. It's it's It's a bit like a tango, you know? I mean, we we're stuck together. We're very un alike, and we're glorious partners. [00:49:00] Yeah, civil unions. And now marriage. Equality is is going through Parliament, as as we speak. And I'm wondering, um, what do you What? What is the feeling within the congregation of Auckland Community Church? In terms of marriage, equality there There has been a certain amount of discussion because some of us from a slightly older generation, especially the women, recall [00:49:30] that age when marriage was seen as a decrepit institution, which was completely, completely the last thing that you'd ever want. And there's others. And I'm a little bit that my own way. Who says I don't mind if marriage remains the heterosexual thing? We could do our you know, we want to celebrate our unions, Um, and we can call them what we want to. But does it really matter? So there was a big, big discussion, um, to try and sort all this out. [00:50:00] And in the end, we realised that we have to fight for marriage equality together because of the way in which it's being defended. See, the way in which it's being defended is I mean, all it it leaves us with no choice. It's being claimed that this is the essence of Christianity. Well, since when did Christianity control marriage? That's not on. It's complete misnomer. Marriages existed long before Christianity. [00:50:30] Secondly, marriage as the sort of heterosexual love nest. This is all very well, but this kind of marriage is only exist for the last 200 years. I mean, before that, they were always arranged marriages and there was often a bit on the side, you know, so And what about polygamy? What? So I mean, you can't tell me that this narrowly conceived, love based heterosexual marriage, which seems to have a pretty large measure of divorce built into it, you know, is something [00:51:00] that is somehow belongs to the fabric of society as an unchanged, permanent building block of society. I mean, that's just ridiculous. So we had to challenge that. So we agree that it's our obligation to defend. I mean, besides, civil unions, is, is is quite clearly a cop out, you know? I mean, it's it was a nice thing to have as a first step, and it's interesting that the debate over civil unions was vastly [00:51:30] more painful than the debate over marriage, which is quite quite surprising. And I think it's a measure of a number of things that have shifted since then. But let's not go into that. I mean, but we make a great analysis to work that one out. Um, so it seemed very, very clear to us, especially also as the language that people are using for civil unions has clearly shifted into. They're calling them marriages anyway, So, [00:52:00] you know, Well, since the since a marriage is a civil union, I mean, why can't the state get honest? And so therefore, we decided, although we would we might all take different attitudes towards the traditional institution of marriage. It seemed to us clear that we should fight together, um, for, um, the change in, um, the scope of marriage and really to let civil unions drop away [00:52:30] because it's neither here nor there in some ways. So that's the logic. Why do you think that there has been such a change between when you look at how much anti feeling there was towards civil unions, as opposed to marriage equality now, which seems to be going through pretty happily. Yes. Um, I'd say, um, two things. Firstly, I think it's something about the way churches work that they do [00:53:00] a do, you know, kind of a last ditch mentality. And they threw everything into the battle against civil unions, and it was actually a very close run thing. And it was, you know, there there was high high tensions and massive public engagement, and they lost and the sky did not, you know, fall in as they predicted and the defence of marriage. I mean, [00:53:30] for a start, it has been so ridiculous. Here you get family first and the like, defending civil unions. I mean, the hypocrisy of it. This phenomenal aspect of, uh I mean, who can throw their heart into fighting this battle if you have to do it by defending civil unions, I mean, this is corrupt. This is utterly corrupt. So I think there was the nonsense of that. And I think Secondly, an awful lot of churches are pragmatists and [00:54:00] say, Well, it's pretty clear we're going to lose this one. And thirdly, I think you know, we are clearly part of an international discussion in which some very significant changes have happened in Britain and the like, and the phasing is just a bit different so that New Zealand is now behind. And of course, there is one key aspect, which is really, really interesting. It's coming in a national government [00:54:30] of not a national government bill, of course, but the civil unions legislation came at a point where an awful lot of conservative churches were just waiting for a fight against the Labour government. So I as I see it, um, the national government is a bit like the conservative churches. It's it's now. It knew that it was going to lose. This national government is entirely pragmatic if it had been Don brash [00:55:00] government. Of course, that's quite different, although I mean Don Brash can play, you know, plays his own games as he wants to. That's a that's another story. But the the opposition in in 2004 and five was quite clearly polemical as part of an attack on the Labour government as being morally suspect. And so it was part of a general campaign in which [00:55:30] you've got to recall that many churches subscribed to very right wing philosophies. And at that stage, remember, this was there was a George Bush government in store, and it was reading an apocalyptic scenario about the evil world in which gay people were part of that evil scenario. The simple fact is that the the textbook has changed a bit since then, and the national government that's you know, hardly got full of original ideas decides everything in terms of [00:56:00] trade and advantage like that chooses not to spoil for this fight. How how ironical that John Key should appear as the happy, happy PM turning up at the big gay out and smiling happily and saying he's going to support it and he'll speak to his MP S. This was the man who voted against it, of course. But then John Key is a politician. He's nothing more than a politician, and that's what we're seeing. I think all those [00:56:30] factors feed into this. What about in terms of things like Destiny? Church, Why don't you think they are, uh, chasing after this bill? There's a specific reason for Destiny Church. Um, they threw everything into that struggle because actually it was a practise. They wanted to make their name for what they thought was going to be the moment when they're going to get elected in 2005. So in 2004. This this was all part of a rhetoric that was going on, um, to play it up. But [00:57:00] you see, once you're left without a strong, determined leader like that, you come to the usual chaos of churches who can never put their act together because there's, you know, there's 100 different causes. And so the only clear voice has been the Catholic Church, but because it's the Catholic Church giving that for us. I mean, it's not exactly a commanding moral presence, um, in New Zealand today at the Catholic Church. Um, and I think I think those factors have been been quite obvious. So while the evangelical community [00:57:30] has said some things and there's been petitions, there's been nothing by way of public protest, and that's very, very interesting. I think it's a real statement that the church has actually accepted defeat, and it said, I mean, I think it's quite a significant admission. It's saying that we are not in the centre of New Zealand anymore. Now we've [00:58:00] all known that, really. But I think they have now recognised that, and that's a very significant admission. You're currently writing a book on Destiny Church and I'm wondering and you've done interviews with with members and and Bishop to as well do they regret what they did with civil unions? Um, no. But they always say they were misunderstood. [00:58:30] And as I say they chose. They chose causes not because they were that important to them as causes. They chose causes because of the mileage they'd get out of them and they they would fly kites. And if a kite would fly, then they'd fly it. And if it didn't work, they'd pull it down and go and look for something else. I mean, it is very interesting. For example, um, that [00:59:00] Tamaki, when he began his television programme back in the year 2000, was going to do, you know, women should not be in positions of leadership, and that was the case that was being presented. And that was how TV New Zealand, you know, with with, uh, both the leader of the opposition and the prime minister being women, this was a pretty outrageous thing to say. And television New Zealand said you must do that. And so they were forced to pull back on that, and it was fabulous for them because they had their audience [00:59:30] made and they didn't need to pay for any advertising of it. You see, it was just perfect. So that's an important aspect of the way that that strong fundamentalist line works is it kind of likes being the bad boy. Um, I think yet all the time the ridiculous thing about this was that Hana Tamaki always was a very significant player in destiny. Church and Destiny had pioneered in the Pentecostal [01:00:00] world the use of women pastors, as always, husband, husband, wife teams, of course. And I mean that paradox They they wore these strange paradoxes Destiny from a working class Maori background where women have to work. So, I mean, what were they going on about? Well, I think they were just testing the wind, and it worked, so it was very pragmatic, I think. [01:00:30] Looking back over your time, uh, with the church with the churches you've been involved with, what do you think it's given you? Oh, well, of course, faith to my mind, always integrates your personality and your wholeness enables you to deal with your black spots and to also know a know a little bit more confidently how to relate to people and how to really do community, [01:01:00] which is wholesome and healthy and enjoyable. Um, it shouldn't be too precious, of course. And, um, that's often a weakness of community in our present world, where we divide so much into kind of the the way we do community. Um, a community church can be a bit odd in that respect, but there we are, um, a little bit twee if you like. Um and I mean, it is quite amusing because in the old days, I think Auckland [01:01:30] Community Church was an alternative to the clubs, and the people who just were too old or too uncomfortable in the club scene could meet safely, meet people at the church. And I sometimes think that's still what we do. Um, you know, and I keep I've got a range of people. I keep saying You'll be all right, Somebody will come along. You, you know, it will work out, and I've watched it happen in some cases. But [01:02:00] as you know, everybody knows sometimes you do find somebody and somebody you don't, and I mean, that's I don't know, you know, that's one of those mysteries of life isn't it? Um, So I think for me I I mean, this is the interesting thing. I've got a I'm involved in a mixed but pro gay church. Two of them, actually, because I'm crazy, you know? And I mean, I'm a specialist in religious history, so I need to, you know, have a wide sample as well as as [01:02:30] well as Auckland Community Church. And I mean, Auckland Community Church doesn't totally do it for me because I love Children being around. And I love the sort of the fun of a whole variety of different people. And I like helping Little old ladies and Pons Baptist has a enormous work with, um, the mentally ill and has a housing trust that houses 200 of them. So, you know, that's a pretty busy community, a small community, but [01:03:00] a, you know, very interesting community of its own. So it's full of interesting and vital life, and I think that's how church should be. And in a way, that's that's great, you know? But then, in another sort of way, in a funny sort of way, I'm still brethren. Deep down, I'm still a person who for whom there's a totalness about community, a totality of world, and I kind of get it through three active church communities, um, each with their own different aspect. Also [01:03:30] because to me, faith nurtures the inner life. I'm a kind of very outward person, but there isn't in the life and you need to nurture that and you need a church. And the Anglican style suits me a bit, too, because it's got that stillness and slowness that is part of the essence of, you know, full life. I think, um, an Auckland Community church in a way, for me, I'm I'm I'm [01:04:00] an evangelist, Really, you know, I mean, I kind of wanna help people wherever I can, and we need Auckland Community Church because we've still got to help people. And imperfect though it may be, it's a wonderful place for touching people, and you may get one chance to help them, but you can make a fantastic difference. So that's what how it how it works for me.
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