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Paul Diamond. Historian, writer and journalist. You be You sound very, very busy. Yeah, yeah. I, I I'm I'm sort of working freelance on all sorts of different projects now, so, yeah, I I It is kind of busy. It's an interesting, um, it's interesting. No I. I finished working full time last February, so February 2009 as an oral historian. But since then, I'm doing all sorts of different writing, journalism, oral history, different all sorts of different projects. So, yeah, it's a good mix of man of many. [00:00:30] And do they fit into each other quite well, or Yeah, they, um I guess when you're freelance, you've got the opportunity to do things that you're interested in that suit. You different, um, things you're passionate about? Yeah. So they they to do with, you know, a lot of them are to do with reading and writing. Um, so, you know, I help out with, um, assessing, uh, you know, applications for literary stuff and help with the writers festival, which is part of the International Arts Festival. Um, also [00:01:00] doing my own writing, um, doing oral history, doing oral history, abstracting and then a few little. Yeah, And there's a bit of queer queer research there as well. Yeah. Have you always been into writing and reading and that kind of thing from a from a one or Yeah, I think I've been, um, interested in reading for a long time. And I remember, you know, growing up in Stokes Valley and being growled at by the librarian for taking out too many nonfiction books. She was worried about me that, you know, that I should be not just doing nonfiction, but I should be reading fiction as well. [00:01:30] Um, and from like a lot of kids, you know, you just get interested, obsessed, really with, with a thing, a topic. So it was, you know, I had a dinosaur phase, like a lot of people do, and I had an Egyptology phase like a lot of people do. But that's kind of continued. Really. I sort of just get interested in a in a topic. So I've been lucky to have jobs where that's been encouraged and been part of it, you know? So I did. I worked as a journalist and worked as a producer in radio. Um, and I was lucky enough in radio to do long form documentaries. [00:02:00] Um, so that meant long interviews. And that was sort of how I ended up getting involved in oral history because that's very similar. The stuff I was doing was sort of social history. I did AAA documentary series. That was a history of the protest group. Um, because it was the 30th anniversary of their first protest at Waitangi. So I went around and talked to some of the old members about what they thought about, you know, the protest then and now and then combined that with archival stuff and have your family always been really supportive of what you've done kind of reading and writing wise. [00:02:30] Were you kind of Were you considered geeky or what? Your family and, um, I I'm not, you know, both my parents were teachers, so they you know, So reading wasn't sort of an too odd thing to be doing, Um, and particularly my mom's family. It was a thing to be encour that they encouraged. Um, and in fact, you know, now I hardly watch any TV because I just There's just so much I'm needing to read for my work and then for book reviewing that I'm doing and and just it's just something I do [00:03:00] for leisure as well. I'm also a judge for this year's, um, New Zealand Post Book Awards as well. So reading 100 and 60 books as well as what I was reading. That's quite a lot. That's quite a lot. So you grew up in the Stokes Valley I was born in, which is a little place, um, in the South. And the reason I was born there was because my father's family were living in a mill town called, which was really small, built around a timber mill. And that's where my father's family lived when my parents got married, [00:03:30] so my father actually decided to teach. He ran. He was in the school tiny wee school there, and my mother actually taught there as well. So until I was about four, we lived there. And, um, I guess it was a bit strange for my mother going back to where you know her In-laws live. But, um, but, you know, that's probably why she's so close to my dad's. She was so close to my dad's brothers and sisters, um and but we came down here. Um, I don't know why my father applied for a job down here, but he applied for a job [00:04:00] in Stokes Valley. And so he was a primary teacher, and we lived in Stokes Valley. So I've lived here ever since then. So that was in the early seventies. We moved down here. So I'm a valley boy or Wellington. You know who you talk to? Yes. And coming out. Did you know were your family all right about it or when did you know or were you always known? Or, um, I probably like a lot of people you know, knew fairly early on, but, um didn't come out of school, and [00:04:30] it was a different environment. So, you know, I was at school. I was at intermediate, um, sort of 79 80. And then I was at school from no. 70 79 80. Then that's at, um, secondary school from 81 to 85. So you're talking just before law reform. So I remember the law reform protests, and we actually weren't allowed to go to those because our parents were anxious because of the Springbok tour. You see, because I think people had sort of, you know, that was a new thing. [00:05:00] Um, the violence at those protests And I think with the law, reform things, you know, we were just teenagers, and we were sort of pretty protected, I think. I mean, um, not many of us could drive, so we used trains and buses and stuff, or we had parents who Ferried us around, so we maybe weren't as independent. I mean, we had a few of us who had licences, and and we love them because they could do things, like take us to the penthouse cinema completely exotic. So [00:05:30] I think I you know, and I remember devotions going on but didn't go to them, you know? And And it was also, you know, AIDS was, um um you know, the those are the plague. So there was all that anxiety as well, because, you know, the virus was in a very different space to what it is now. Um, so So with all that stuff going on, what were your parents? Just like, Hey, but sheltered from it or keep keep you out of that young son came out of it, or was it kind of lots [00:06:00] of messages around. No, it didn't come up. You know, this is the thing, because I didn't raise it because I just channelled my energy into, um, you know, doing quite well at school, working hard, doing all the other stuff at school, like drama and debating and playing hockey. And, you know, so it did really well, I had a great great time at school, and I also had a group of friends who are None of them are gay, but but they were all quite bright. We had streaming, and we were all in the same stream at school. And they, um they weren't really into relationships. [00:06:30] So see, there wasn't that pressure to be in a relationship, so it sort of didn't come up. And we just had these very intense friendships with each other, so we sort of hung out with each other. We saw each other on the holidays, and and we were all lab assistants. Yeah, it is kind of geeky being a LA, But being a lab assistant was great because it meant you could, um you could, um, be in the science labs at lunch time. And and you see that protected us a lot because, you know, even being tall, I got [00:07:00] would get bullied and, uh, well, just hassled and and I don't know, kids zero on on anything that's different. And so I was tall, which, and I then hated being tall. Now, I love it, but, um, but then it was because it was like, you know, you were singled out and I may have been a bit, you know, there might have been a I might have been a bit effeminate. I don't know. Um, it was probably just a bit neat and and so that sort of marks you out of it. So but but we could sort of hide from them and and I know my mother said she thought that we [00:07:30] had not really had a very typical education because we actually hadn't had to mix with a broad cross section of kids like my brother. I have one brother who's three years younger than me and yeah, and there's just two of us. And he'd had a very different experience of school and and did really well, but in different things. Like he was the captain of the 1st 15 and he was head boy, in a sense, you know, Um, so we've done different things at school, but she's probably right. But in the in a sense, it kind of, um I'm grateful for it, because it sort of [00:08:00] meant that I just got through that whole experience and didn't really wasn't sort of too fearful, you know, Which I think you could. And it and it certainly. Yeah, well, that meant I didn't really have to address the sexuality thing. I just basically, and even through university, I didn't didn't either. But it was kind of becoming a bit obvious, especially you. You didn't bring it up, but were there kind of messages, I guess, Because of, you know, the AIDS thing and homosexual law reform. There was Was there a lot of stuff kind of flying around in the public around what gay men were meant to be like? Or did you hear any of that [00:08:30] or you just in your science lab? It was really sort of. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? That I, I actually I sort of was aware, and I think if I probably you know, I probably knew I was gay, but I sort of wasn't doing anything about it. And, um I, I do remember, um Flatting. So it's it's after I'd graduated from university. So you'd be talking about the well through the Yeah. I mean, this is the early nineties. I mean, because I didn't really come out until I was in my mid twenties, and but I just kind of felt the need to [00:09:00] No, no. And I think was sort of repressing it. In retrospect, because I remember doing a video for a flatmate. We had a flatmate who was in Zimbabwe, and we all got together and did a video of him. And I remember looking at the video of me, and, uh, it's always hard seeing yourself on video, but I That's when I thought, Oh, that guy is not at ease, you know, in his own skin. And that's when I think I sort of thought, no, I need to do something. So, yeah, I started reading. I remember reading, um, dangerous desires. Pe Peter Wells's book. I I've got a [00:09:30] really close friend who, uh, is the same age as me. But he came out 10 years before me. And so once I did come out. He was really like my fairy godmother, Really? And and so he and I knew of him. We've both grown up in lower Hutt. Uh, but he'd spent some time at school overseas in Canada, and and I think it'd come out then. But, um, and I'd heard about him when I was at university because I knew some of his friends and he was pretty notorious, you know, because it was it was a radical thing because, you know, law reform is only [00:10:00] just going through you. And the whole notion of gay teachers was pretty radical. And I, you know, being the child of teachers, I remember my mother sort of saying, you know, that would be tricky, you know? And it, you know, it could, um it would be a tricky thing for for someone to be out. So it just shows how far things have changed. Yeah, I've always thought about how weird it must be for something to be considered. I guess my prostitution was like that, but something or a group of people to be considered illegal or whatever. And then, you [00:10:30] know, and then they're not illegal. And because I was I would have been five or something when that happened. But as an adult, I guess another lesson is that things can flip both ways. I suppose is one of the lessons that I guess you do have to keep, you know, being aware, uh, and vigilant. But I can't believe how much it's changed in such a short space of time. Because you see all these things followed on once you'd had the decriminalisation, then the teaching and the and there's a guy Shane Town, who I don't I don't really know him very well. He might [00:11:00] have been a little bit older than me who was, you know, gays and lesbians in education everywhere. And I just remember how brave they were because they were talking about being out as gay teachers, you know, before law reform. I think even now I know lots of teachers find it. It's much easier. I'm sure it's much easier now. I mean, now there are, um now there are school groups, you know, that that have been going for a while now. I mean, it's now it's the same as it is for straight teachers that you've got to observe professional, ethical rules and boundaries, [00:11:30] so it really is no different. I mean, it's, you know, So there was always that issue with, you know, straight men and young girls. And you know, So it's now it's just like that. I mean, it's you just have to observe the same ethical rules, So yeah, And so when I finally did, you know, come out. It was kind of most people were saying, Oh, you know, we wonder when you do so But you see, I guess I'm lucky that the climate change, because if it had been 10 years earlier, it would have been a different sort of thing, I suppose, because if it had still been illegal, [00:12:00] it would have been different. But it was sort of like, Well, 10 years on from law reform, what's the big deal? Yeah, So it was a bit of a non offender people like Oh, no, my mother was, um but we you know, But she was just concerned about, um I've seen this in other families. You know, where people are just concerned about their kids getting hurt, You know, um, and that they might be letting themselves in for a hard life. harder life than they might. She never talked about the grandchildren thing. Uh, it was a great relief [00:12:30] when my brother had a take the pressure off, Uh, and and that is incredibly special. And my mother died in 2008, and that's one of the odd things about the grief from that is it makes you think about, you know, legacy stuff and and grandkids and all that sort of stuff. It's interesting you don't I didn't expect to start thinking about all that again, but no, they were. They were really good and really supportive. And then it's a sort of another coming out when you get into relationships as well. So in the in, the partner I met [00:13:00] was about, you know, 6, 16, 17 years ago. They both got on really well with, um, he's He's older than me. He's 17 years older than me, so he's closer to being a peer of theirs. So perhaps that might have been a reason why, um, they got on, but, you know, they found it easy to get on with them. But I've been pretty lucky and then in my extended family, have been really, really good. Yeah. And I've got all sorts of gay relatives on my dad's side, the Maori side, which is really cool as well. And, um, yeah, I've got a gay [00:13:30] uncle in Sydney, and his partner said years ago that he loved coming back to New Zealand because the family extended family was so warm and welcoming. He said it was like you could feel the love coming out of the walls and I. I just thought it was such a lovely phrase. Yeah, And I saw them a few months ago, um, last year and you know, so I'm very lucky, I think to have come from there's never really been any, um, no, you know, any rejection or hostility? Yeah. So you you're doing readers and writers, and [00:14:00] I know that you, um you've written a few books for and published by and you've done lots of oral history stuff. Um, has it has it always been around kind of LGBTI you know, queer communities or just kind of flicks in and out or overlaps? Or I think it's it's just like one of those things that you know, you, um, for me, the things I get drawn to are linked in with bits of my background. So, you know, I did a biography of a woman called [00:14:30] Who had an English father and a Maori mother and was a She became a very famous guide at and went to Oxford and, um married an Englishman over there and then divorced him and then went to study at Oxford. And And I can't I really think the reason I was drawn to that story for me was that it's the biracial thing being a half cast, as they were known then, um and I'm working on a story at the moment about a a man who was the mayor of [00:15:00] WHANGANUI in 1920 was being blackmailed because he was gay. And he shot someone who was blackmailing him and went to prison and then went to, um, England became a journalist. And then he got shot covering a riot in Germany. So and people have said to me, You know, why are you interested in that story? And it's it's not your family, it's not. You know, um, and I think there is something to do. There could be something about the journalist thing, but I think it's to do with the gay thing. I think it's just about a a curiosity about other gay lives. [00:15:30] Um, I think you have to be curious to do the things I've done. But I think sometimes gay people are often curious about what's it like for other people to be gay? And what's it been like in other times to be gay? And, you know, we were talking about how things have changed in our memory. Well, see, I'm I'm trying to understand what it was like in the early 20th century, and I think you it's completely invisible. And I think there's no notion of this binary, gay straight thing. I think [00:16:00] you know, men have sex with men, but they may not have identified anything like how we identify. So it's more of kind of a behaviour, something you do as opposed to an identity. This is well, there is that theory, isn't there about your orientation, your behaviour and what's the other one? They're not all necessarily the same. So I've been in touch a lot with Chris Brickle, who did the mates and lovers the history of male homosexuality, and it's been great talking to him, and it's great that he did that work because it's like, you know, the work that people like [00:16:30] Gareth, um, Watkins and Mark Beer are doing. It's a wonderful base to build on, you know, And I think there's lots of stuff that's possible because of that, that base stuff that these guys are doing. Um, the I did a book on Maori leadership for, uh and that was tied in with a radio series about Maori leadership. The another thing that I did for there was a essay in a, um, book on indigenous sexuality. And there was a article looking at how a story that I spotted when [00:17:00] I was researching the mayor story about a Maori man who'd been, um, taken to court because he dressed up as a woman to work as a housemate and and for a family in Auckland and how that was reported. So it's amazing when you research, you know, you find of research, you know, you find all these other stories that that are interesting to follow up. Um, So what I did was I sort of tried to contrast how that was covered and then looked at this show that was on Maori TV, Um, and just contrasting the two sort of things [00:17:30] you know, over the two time periods. It's interesting, isn't it, that the is not now happening. So sometimes we have these things and they are just sort of moments and time. And then they go, you know, now we don't have an indigenous queer presence in the media. Um, like we did. So you know, it's like when Dame Sylvia was a Cartwright was asked about having a New Zealand, you know, they said, Gosh, New Zealand's got, you know, a woman. Chief justice. It's got a woman Prime minister. It's got a woman governor and she said, You know, these are just moments in time. We shouldn't get complacent [00:18:00] and, you know, and she's right. I mean, we now don't have a woman, Prime Minister. I mean, we now don't have a woman. Governor General, we still have a woman chief justice, But she's right. These things, you know, are not necessarily. You shouldn't really get complacent. So what's kind of changed or for better, for worse or and, you know, for want of better terms LGBTI communities, or where would you Where would you like to see stuff headed or what other moments in time would you like to see happen? This this friend of a really good friend of mine who's the same age. But we came [00:18:30] out 10 years apart. I learn a lot by talking to him about what things were like those years, you know, when I was really just busy at school and at university and stuff and not really involved in the community much. And I think we've lost. There are things we've gained, you know, there's a lot more openness. I mean, we've got the legal protections. Now we've got things like civil unions, but you listen to some older gay people talk, and it's, you know, there was. It was like things were like a secret society. You know, um, [00:19:00] who used to work with Gareth and I at Radio New Zealand, you know, So an older gay Maori man used to talk about a place on road, and he used to used to have to do a special knock on the door. And, you know, they looked at you and they let you in And I, I wonder if we sort of missed that because A it makes it easier to find people. Um, and and and it's sort of a you know, it's a it's a you. Perhaps your identity is different, whereas in Wellington things are so integrated [00:19:30] and diffuse. Um, because people go to, um I mean, we've had guest speakers at the outtakes and they go, Oh, here's where you all are, you know? So where are you all the rest of the year? Um, I do wonder about what is what are the things that bring us together. So I admire the people who do things like, um, the devious dance party and the Out in the square. And And that's why that we've been part of is a great thing. I think things like that are really special because, yeah, I mean, otherwise you I mean, things [00:20:00] like the gay welfare group I mean have come out of, um, you know, other. The push for law reform and and aids, I mean, was a big rallying thing. But I do sort of wonder, you know, what is it that that brings us together? And sometimes in Wellington you feel like you know everybody who's queer and Then you find there are whole pocket pockets of different age groups, different ethnicities, different backgrounds. And I think that's quite exciting, really. But But, yeah, I think that's something we've sort of lost is it's It's almost like a double whammy. It's almost like you. [00:20:30] You know, you're considered a minority or a, you know, living on the margins or whatever, and, um and then there's all that. We're just like you kind of stuff. And then when laws changes and attitudes change a lot of the time, people are just like everybody else. And so they go to, you know, whatever. And I've heard people say also about Wellington that, um, yeah, that that queer people or LGBTI people just go anywhere, you know, they go to the whatever bars don't necessarily go to the gay bars and that kind of thing. So it's kind of it can be more kind [00:21:00] of spread out. And then you have that. I guess that, um, loss of a not loss maybe, but the lack of of a real hub or a real kind of coming together thing, which is yeah, I find it really interesting as well, which is why things like outtakes are great in winter. Um, you know, and a lot of people are getting behind the out games thing at the moment, which is, which is a great thing. The Lions group. I mean, II. I just wonder how I think it must be easier for for young people now, because it's so they're growing up in this completely different environment. I. I [00:21:30] always wonder, you know, what would I be doing if I was at college now, in the, you know, would I be trotting off to the Queer Group and at Huval High or whatever, Or or would I be just the same as I was? I don't know. It would be interesting to know, because it's such a different sort of context. In a way, I'm sort of relieved that I didn't because, you know, by the time I did, I was a lot older and more assertive and because there was always that worry that, you know, with those being the AIDS is that you know, you were pretty vulnerable. And if you had sort of got into [00:22:00] a, you know, unsafe situations and stuff and, you know, um, different partners You were very vulnerable, especially if you were younger and not you know that assertive. And so I guess that's how you do have to live, isn't it? I mean, you can't You can't really regret the way things have turned out. But on balance, I think, um, I think it's really good where we're at now. And I think it's really good that we've got you know, you've got green. It's a bit like Maori. I mean, you, you can be green, you can be [00:22:30] right wing, you can be left wing, You can be into workers rights. You can be, you know so And that's probably what we've always been like. Heaps of kind of multiplicities and and that kind of thing. I always used to say that if you listen to gay people talk, you can hear either them saying I'm fighting for the right to be different or I'm fighting for the right to be like everyone else. That's just what you were saying. Um, mainstreaming, I suppose, this sort of thing, Um where do I stand on that I? I think there is a I think there are. There are [00:23:00] different things, you know, There are there are cultural differences, I reckon. I, I really do. I think between queer people and non queer people. I think it changes your outlook on the world. And, uh, there's a Mark Doty who's a fantastic American poet and essay. Uh, memoirist, who's said in a quote, you know, that has been queer, affects his whole outlook. It affects the way he engages with the world and and I, I think that's right, actually. And so that's why I sort of, you know, part of me sort [00:23:30] of thinks, Oh, I wonder what it would have been like, you know, to have the Dorian Club and all these things that have gone now, Uh, but I you know, I've just signed up for a gay men's book group, and if I could sing, I'd be trotting along to the choir. And, you know, uh, so these things are around. I mean, we can make our own communities, and I suppose we don't have to do it covertly. Um, so I suppose on balance, you know, um, we're in a good space. What would I like to see more of? I don't [00:24:00] know, I. I just, um Yeah, that's a that's a hard question. I mean, I just think, um, it's Wellington is unusual, I think because you've just got so many, um, options here and so many. I mean, I that's why I think I'd struggle living anywhere else. Uh, no, I can't think of anything that, um I think you just have to be You have to be vigilant, though I think you have to not be complacent. And, um So that's why I think it's great [00:24:30] that rainbow Wellington have been convening that discussion about the blood donations. Um, you know, and that and and it's really great that we've got MP S all over and most of the parties now you know who are who who are, you know, can be openly gay. And we've got that sort of presence there as well. And that link into the policy making and stuff. Um, yeah, I guess that would just be The main thing is really just not, um, not being complacent and also looking for the opportunities for us to tell our own [00:25:00] stories in our own way. Yeah, that's really important, because I think a lot of it's for me. It's really interesting how much I guess knowledge or history can get lost and, you know, not even one generation, but almost like five years or 10 years or something. And so, um, I know that schools out, which is a youth group. Um, we have we've had speakers along, you know. Yeah, before you were born kind of. For lots of the young people, homosexuality was illegal, and men used to be put in prison and given lobotomies [00:25:30] and electric shock treatments. And it's really interesting. Now when I do education in schools for predominantly straight kids, they're like, Whoa, was it really illegal? They could, you know, can't even fathom a time like maybe don't like gay people or whatever and still say mean things but couldn't kind of fathom a time when it was actually illegal. And so you're like, Wow, that's actually that's actually fairly recent. You know, that's not 50 years ago or 100 years ago. Yeah, this is this fairly recent stuff that this younger generation has got different things [00:26:00] to deal with. Like this thing about gay become the meaning of gay changing among younger people and then gay, Just meaning Oh, that's really stink or awful or bad or whatever, and and we really shouldn't get complacent because I think there are still, it's still not necessarily easy for people to be themselves. And, um and there is still a bit of a bit of homophobe, you know, homophobia around and and the way people talk and stuff. Um, yeah, definitely. And I think that I've had a perhaps [00:26:30] an easier time because people don't always know that I'm gay, I suppose, Um, that awful phrase straight acting, which is not actually used that much anymore. It always used to be used in the personal ads. And is it still used on the personal or I don't know. Now, now that I think about it, I, I haven't seen that phrase for years. And yet when I was coming out, that was a very much, uh, see. But now what does that mean? Because you you don't know now and I like that. But it's like [00:27:00] when people look at me, they don't know that I'm Maori either always Maori or, um so that is interesting as well. It's about this whole thing of passing, you know, passing, you know, and people. And I kind of like that that people don't prejudge you. But I do know of other people who maybe don't get taken as seriously because, um, people might think, you know, you silly queen or whatever you know, so more double whammies. Cool. So you've got you've got lots of judging and [00:27:30] book reading up for the readers and writers. Are you going to enter anything in the, um, in the out games? Do you play any sports and hobbies? Um, well, I I run with front runners and I. I really love our little front runners group. That sort of started. It's a woman called Jules Easter. Is that her name? She We started this over 10 years ago. She started it. And what's really funny is that I think she just sent a note around saying, How does anyone want to run a set up a front runners group? And we did. And and and then she sort of left, you know, [00:28:00] and I think she's still around, but she's not involved in the group, but but the rest of us have sort of carried on and yeah, we run every Sunday morning, uh, from from Fryberg pool and then have brunch afterwards. And it's a really nice social group, and we run all different distances and and people come and go. You know, uh, the most we ever sort of get is 10 for a run. Um, we have more and more people running in summer in winter. I'm, um Yeah. So, I I did the marathon at the Sydney Games. Um, which probably was a bit of [00:28:30] a dumb thing because it was so hot. Long distance, and it was really hot. And, you know, it's like like today very, you know, in the well, I know it was actually in the thirties running it, Um, and you can't really train for that in New Zealand. So And we had to run with all your clothes on run on the spot in the sauna. But it was, um it was the last event. So, you know, you had to sort of behave yourself all week and then eat, you know, eat salad and pasta, and, uh I don't know, um I just end up being so busy [00:29:00] with all these things in Wellington. Um, I'll certainly be doing something about games. Um, that's if I'm not marshalling or helping with judging something. Um, but yeah, running is a big thing. I. I have done a bit of yoga, uh, which I sort of like to do that That might not be in the game. You never know. Bridge is in the bridge was at the games in Sydney, and that's, um, yoga is good because it counteracts, you know, when you sit at a desk doing a lot of book work and I, I do quite [00:29:30] a bit of skiing in winter. And my partner is an instructor, so and and he's got he's got involved in teaching disabled people to ski. So, um, and he lives at the ski field at, um for three months of the year. So you know that. And so then I go off and do master's skiing every second weekend, as part of, you know, and also to see him. So, um, that's my winter sport. And I you know, I love I love. I really, really come to love skiing. I'm not really that good, but I But I enjoy [00:30:00] it. So yeah, and they all those things all sort of compliment each other, but, um, yeah, I'm just starting to have a go at some more swimming and tennis. And wow. So you might You might be a major competitor in the game. Hey, Thanks, Heaps. Paul Diamond for having you on to us. And good luck with all your historic writing, journalism and and judging.
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