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My name is Paul Diamond, and today we're at the National Library at in Wellington in November 2022. And it's the 15th of November, which makes it Courage Day. That's right. And that is the new New Zealand New Zealand name for the International Day of Writers Freedom. And, um, they named it Courage Day in New Zealand after James Courage and his grandmother, Sarah. Courage, because of what had happened after the writing. Uh, [00:00:30] that happened to the books that they wrote today is also a very special day because you are launching your book Downfall. Yeah, I was really pleased when when the date that we worked out was going to be a good date for the launch was actually coincided with, um, Courage Day and yeah, So, um, I've done some other books. None of them have taken this long. This has actually taken 18 years, but, uh, it's it's a story that is in New Zealand. It's overseas. There's because it's about people who ended up in London and Berlin. So it was really important [00:01:00] to be able to try and research over there, which was really lucky to have the support to be able to do that and then pull all those threads together. I remember when this was just starting out. We were both working at Radio New Zealand 2000, 2001. That was a very different time. You know, the Internet was just in its kind of beginnings. The research, I mean, research must have changed so much in that time. Yeah, that would be That's my advantage, isn't it? From having taken so long because, you know, each day there's more digitised material and you're right. When I think back to that [00:01:30] time it was really different. Even radio was working quite differently then because our colleague at the time, Prue Labine, had heard about the story, I'd heard about the story. So Prue actually suggested doing, um, a radio programme which got commissioned, and we started trying to research. We went to and we discovered that the mayor of Wu, who this books about his daughter was still alive and not very happy about anyone doing anything about it, partly out of a sense of, um, protectiveness. Actually, Pru thought for her father Well, also then [00:02:00] she was only a child when this happened, and the original shooting, and this happened in 1920. So there was no one around that we could talk to who was an adult who could give us an adult perspective and also because this was something that got actively suppressed in, Um, it was really hard to find it, but we found lots of things in the archives in Wellington. And then I left. Radio New Zealand started working as a historian, and I had a boss, Bronwyn Daly, who said to me she was the chief historian at the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and she said, Don't try and solve this, but see where it, um [00:02:30] why don't you see where it leads and look at the effect it had on other gay men? Um, and that was a really good tip, because you start. I think that's part of the significance of the story and why it's important to remember it is the impact it had on gay men and queer people generally actually through the generations. Because was this was this one of the first times where the word homosexual was actually used in kind of a public say, like in a in a newspaper, apparently it was, and so the word was kind of around. But it was really in the medical [00:03:00] profession. So by saying when this man was accused of shooting someone which he had, But but blaming that on his, um, disorder, as it was known then of homosexual homosexuality, homosexual monomania, which and the evidence was a letter, a statement from his doctor and a specialist about treatment. So that's that's another reason this is an interesting story because it's about our medical history and he'd actually been treated in 1914. So that's six years, [00:03:30] six years before the shooting. Um, the treatment was probably a thing called auto suggestion, which we still actually use and possibly hypnosis. But I don't think that word apparently wasn't used much. I mean, other words were used like pervert and sissy and sodomy and bugger and all those sort of words which have different kind of context because they're used in the law and they're used about to about to describe sexual acts. This is sort of this idea of the medical term being used starting to be used as an identity [00:04:00] term. I mean, this might not be how he'd see it if he was here now and talking about it. But but the term he used the term, his lawyers used the term in court. And as far as we know, that's the first time that it happened in doing all this, uh, research and investigation. How have people reacted to you Kind of uncovering this history? Um, it's become easier over time to talk about this. Um, I did find a [00:04:30] when we and I first went there. People who were from either didn't know about it or didn't want to talk about it. But people who weren't from Gan couldn't stop talking about it because they found it so fascinating. Um, I think it's it's gonna be interesting going up to for the second launch of this book later in the week to see how you know it's great. They'll have had a week or so to look at the book, and I know they've all been really looking forward to seeing it, because it it's kind of their story in some ways. So I'm quite curious to see that I think it's become a lot easier, [00:05:00] and there's a man up there. James Barron, who was a counsel until recently, um, moved to with his husband, and he's been really pushing for the sites associated with the story to be registered on the Rainbow list. And I think that's incredible. In 100 years, you know, a man gets blackmailed for his sexuality, and then 100 years later, he's a mover and shaker in and and pushing for things just like Charles Mackay did actually, So it's kind of incredible. The the The book is also a part of your life, because 18 years [00:05:30] is a long time in somebody's life to to dedicate to this what has driven you. Why why are you so passionate about this story? Um, I guess it's just a sense of curiosity. You know, I, I think I've I always find I'm curious about other gay lives and particularly other gay lives over time. Perhaps that's to do with when it's something that's a little bit hidden and not necessarily talked about. Your sources of information about the norms are not always, um, available. It's different now in in our time. [00:06:00] Um, it's It's been a struggle at times this, uh, because I guess because I couldn't quite work out what to do with it and and And what sort of book it was gonna be. And it was really only thanks to the interest from publishers. Um, Nicola from me, sort of who she's. We've been in touch about this for a while, and so she'd been a longtime supporter of this, and she kind of picked it up and and helped me get it. Get it home with the help of an amazing editor, um, Anna Rogers in Christchurch, who helped [00:06:30] me do a structural edit. And then she did the copy edit and an as a historian as well and a researcher. So she really tested me on the sort of details. And I'm pleased about that because you'll see in the book there's a lot of footnotes where I've sort of put my evidence. And so that's for people behind me to kind of check the path I trod and and make their own assessment of whether I'd interpreted the sources right, because I'm sure more will emerge. Actually, Do you think after researching for so long that you are close [00:07:00] to Charles? Like like can you Can you see him? Um, biographies are like that. Where by the end of it, you do end up with a sense of the person you end up thinking. So what was this person like? I think he'd have been amazing company. Um, I think he was hugely energetic, and it's just fascinating to think of him, you know, landing in London, landing in Berlin and reinventing himself. And actually the review, you know, that's just appeared in the Oral History Journal. Made a point that hadn't occurred to me. [00:07:30] Is that the real? Another reason it was such a tragedy that he got shot after any sort of five or six months in Berlin is that he really was kind of on the point of reinvention. You know, he really had kind of gone through this process of rehabilitating himself, establishing himself as a journalist and a language teacher, but was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just finally, what would you like to say to Charles if you met him? That it's an interesting question to think. What would I say to [00:08:00] him? Um, I think I get the feeling he's the kind of person who would he'd tell me What? Um, what he was I just He seems to have been a bit of a polymath, I guess. Of course, Yeah. We'd really want to know what happened in that office in in 1920. Because, as far as I can tell, he never talked about that. So we've only relied on a strange, unsigned statement from Darcy Creswell. So we've had to kind of guess working backwards from that. I guess that's probably the main thing. And where is your diary? [00:08:30] Because I know I know he had one, but I don't know what happened to it.
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