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So welcome to this session peddling your own WAKA a survey of the landscape where global publishing companies no longer have the same power as gatekeepers that they once had. And the Internet has opened up new ways of writers reaching their audiences. So our panel today will explore the possibilities and problems of finding your own audience. So just to tell you about the format of the session, I've asked all the panellists, um, to talk with their responses to the topic. We're gonna run through that and reverse alphabetical order because I wanted to go [00:00:30] first, and, um, then I'll facilitate a discussion with the panel, and then we'll we will allow time for questions and responses and things from the audience at the end. But just to introduce our panel. Carol Bow. If you haven't worked out by now, you must. You must know that she sells books. She's the owner of the Woman's Bookshop in Ponsonby, which is celebrating its 27th birthday in April. Is that right? She reviews books as well on Radio New Zealand and in print media, and she helps readers and writers connect through her involvement with festivals like this [00:01:00] one and and also the Auckland one and others. Today, she'll be giving a perspective on what it's like to be a thriving independent bookseller. Anton Blanc, next to her, is a child advocate, project manager, communications consultant and publisher. He's successfully published hardback books, including For Someone I Love, a collection of writing by his late Mother Blanc Beautiful book that is out on the table out there in the book sale area. Anton is also an anthologist and has founded the Maori Literary Journal, or Chris Brickle. Next [00:01:30] to Me is a sociologist, historian and author of books including the award Winning Mates and Lovers. The History of Gay New Zealand. Also Out There on the Table, he set up his own press genre books, which he runs with his partner in Dunedin. And this has published mainly affections. The photographs of Robert G, which was referenced in that first book that I mentioned two by two men and peers, which was 2013 the following year. Southern men, Gay Lives and Pictures in 2014, and then I was intrigued to see on the National Library catalogue that that's been followed by Dunedin's Warehouse, Precinct [00:02:00] 2014 so it would be good to hear more about that and your publishing strategy. Joanne Drayton, Next to Chris, is an acclaimed biographer who's written about two crime writers. We heard about an a fantastic session this morning, Nao Marsh that came out in 2008 and Anne Perry in 2012. But I was also. I've also known her work through her writing about the artist Rona Hazard and Edith Collier, two terrific books as well That came before that and Frances Hodgkins as well. And today she's talking about thinking digital, which is me, incredibly [00:02:30] intrigued. And then Ian Watt is a former publisher at Read Harper Collins in exile. Ian Watt has published both fiction and nonfiction in the United Kingdom and New Zealand, and he first published Peter Wells collection of short stories, Dangerous Desires, which is still still available. And he's Novel Nights in the Gardens of Spain, which we were talking about earlier today, and I think he's the Dedicate If That's the Right Word and The Best Mates Anthology, which, um, I spoke about last night, so join me in [00:03:00] welcoming this panel of experts brains Trust this this afternoon, Ian, over to you, right? I thought I would just give you a little bit of a background, um, of the context for publishing today. Um, a lot of the session will be devoted to, uh, digital publishing and Internet publishing and the new [00:03:30] forms of publishing. But I wanted to tell you a little bit about traditional publishing and what's happened to us and where it is, actually. Now, last month, there was a US study released that revealed what most people would suspect that, uh, people employed in the publishing industry largely identify as straight no surprise there. [00:04:00] The figure is actually 88%. Some of the other figures in the survey might interest you. 78% of those employed in publishing are women. Only 22% are men, 79% are white or Caucasian, 92% have no disability. And from my own knowledge of New Zealand publishers, I think those figures would be pretty much the same here. The industry does employ a large number of women and as in society at large, [00:04:30] I'm sure most people are heterosexual. But I don't think figures like this need to deter you from paddling your own into the mainstream to see what happens if that's your inclination. As everyone knows, the publishing industry in New Zealand has changed hugely in the 21st century due to the Internet and all the eBooks and alternative entertainments that are around. But the changes don't necessarily mean that all the avenues to traditional publishing have [00:05:00] been blocked. There've been huge changes in retail book bookshops have closed. Who remembers orders and which has changed its focus. It's disappeared from Auckland's main shopping street. Major publishers have disappeared. They've been merged or swallowed up. Read. A proud Kiwi company where I used to work was bought up by Penguin years ago, and since then, Penguin has itself merged into Random House, [00:05:30] and other local publishers like 10 Long Acre and Beckett no longer exist in their own right. There are some independents that still remain. David Bateman, Exile Our Press. Craig Potton, still soldier on the university. Presses continue. In fact, a new university press opened just six months ago. Massey University Press and a new publisher called Upstart Press has been very successful since it launched a couple of years ago and actually published Alison [00:06:00] Moore's book about which we heard this morning. So the self belief of these new publishers and starting up is perhaps reflected in local book sales. It might surprise you to know that in 2015, 5.3 million books were sold in New Zealand, which was a growth in volume of 7.1% over the previous year. So book sales are actually increasing, and the value of those sales also increased by 2.1%. [00:06:30] Sales of eBook readers and of eBooks themselves plateaued a couple of years ago, and sales of readers are definitely in decline as people increasingly take to their phones and tablets to read books. Some reports suggest that eBook sales may be declining slightly, according to the US, the UK Bookseller magazine. Just last week, the five largest UK publishers all reported declining [00:07:00] eBook sales in 2015. However, this may be slightly misleading, partly because sales of self published and independently published eBooks are growing and account for an increasing share of the market. So we've got people paddling their own waka quite successfully away from those major publishers. So what are the options now? [00:07:30] I'll leave my colleagues on the panel to talk about some self publishing and online publishing. Um, there are maybe a much larger number of options and opportunities available to writers. Now, Um, if if all you want to do is to get your work out there to be read by others, it won't necessarily bring you an income, but you will have a voice out there. But if you are approaching traditional publishers, what are they looking for? I think there [00:08:00] are. There are three main things first, most importantly, what publishers have always wanted. And that is originality, writing ability, good ideas. You have to be able to demonstrate not just competence but excellence. They want writers who bring new ideas, or at least a new take on an old idea or a writer with a fresh and resting voice who can really communicate in an interesting way. Secondly, and I think this is the major change in the 21st century. Publishers [00:08:30] want authors who are prepared to help sell the book and preferably one who is digitally connected. So it's a huge advantage if you can use social media confidently. An author with thousands of Facebook friends or an active Twitter account is a godsend to publishers these days. They also really love authors who can engage people who are able to talk in public, promote their book positively in the media. Such authors will be invited to literary festivals and conferences [00:09:00] and so on. And it's important to publishers that authors can effectively sell their books at events like these, and publishers are always looking for something extra. So if you have another interest or a connection with a pastime or an organisation, which apparently has no bearing on your being an author, they might want to use it. For example, if you've written a novel, but you're also a leading light in the or in the deaf community, [00:09:30] or triathlon or whatever. These are all opportunities to publishers these days. They widen the scope of your potential market because you've already got connections there, and they are more important now than they ever were in the past. I think, um, too, that, um, those those connections between the author and publisher enable more of a spirit of cooperation for, uh, between author and publisher these days. [00:10:00] I. I think the the days of the the sort of the authoritarian publisher telling the author. What to do are gone. My last decade in publishing has been much more cooperative in the sense that there is a necessity for people to work together. And the third thing that publishers are looking for is, of course, a subject area which, where they can see good sales. And as far as nonfiction is concerned, areas that are as strong as ever for traditional publishers are things like cookery books, photographic [00:10:30] books, art books, anything that relies on a strong visual content. The other major area is Children's books not just picture books, but teen and young adult fiction, too. One of the features in publishing in recent years has been the growth of young adult fiction and since Harry Potter, it's an area not confined to teens, so adults are now reading young adult books in very large numbers. Talking of subject [00:11:00] areas, um, I thought I might just finish up by telling you the top five best sellers in New Zealand in 2015, excluding adult colouring books. And by the way, I did look up gay adult colouring books, and I was surprised what I found on the Internet the other day. The top the top five books last year in New Zealand. Number [00:11:30] one. Dan Carter's biography Number two Make Me by Lee Child number three Grey, by EL. James. That 50 SHADES thing won't go Away. Number four. Homemade Happiness by Chelsea Winter and Number five. Wimpy Kid, Old School So Sports Biography, blockbuster novel, titillating S and M trash fiction. Celebrity Cookbook. [00:12:00] Chelsea Winter is brilliant at social media. She sells her own books through social media And, of course, when get a new book in an established Children's series. So that's where we are in New Zealand now that's what's selling. Thank you. Thank you. Are you a digitally connected writer? [00:12:30] I hope I'm connected. I'm not sure. Digitally it is. Um II. I kind of feel a little bit of a, um, gate crasher here in this party because, um, I'm not exactly sure how, um I I just thought it was such an interesting idea. And, um, in view of this changes in the, um, publishing industry in New Zealand um I I thought that, in a way, our community, this community, um, has always, uh, really [00:13:00] been up against the odds, and the odds have shifted even more dramatically, Um, against the writer, I think. And And if we look at the losses in publishing, um, in 2013 and 2014, um, we're talking about, um, as far as I know, um, these facts are correct. Um, Pearson Education gone. Harper Collins gone? Yeah, but but the sort of the traditional ones [00:13:30] have gone. Um, has she New Zealand gone in the in the old sense? Um, school journal. Publisher Learning media gone, uh, Random House and Penguin now a random penguin. Um, so So, um, merged. So, um, so I think if it hasn't gone, it's been changed, and it's altered. And so our publishing world is very different. And what, What what's happened with, um, with all those losses [00:14:00] is that all the people involved in those, um organisations lost their job. The warehouse people, the editors, um, and the whole, uh, production moved offshore. So we now have New Zealand books being edited by Australians, and I don't know whether you feel upset about that. I wouldn't have said I was in front of Alison Mao this morning, but, um, it's it's in other words, without [00:14:30] the actual local knowledge and the, um, commitment to that local knowledge that we, uh we bring to, um our editing and the process of creating a book. Um uh, in New Zealand. So our world has changed. Our world was always we were always up against it. But I, I say today say that all authors, um or all writers are are, um, sending their work or trying to send their work out into an environment which is challenged and and difficult. [00:15:00] Um, and I've got a couple of quotes here, which I which I would which I like I. I did not my words, but, um, Jeff Walker said we are actually starting to get fairly close to the wall. If you're a New Zealand fiction writer and you've been turned down by Penguin Random and you don't live in Wellington. So you probably won't get published by Victoria University Press. And you're not not a Maori, so you won't be published by, um Then goodness [00:15:30] gracious, where are you going to go? So, I mean, this is I mean, let's be honest and and upfront about it, you know, it's really difficult, uh, to get something published today. Um and I would always say that the mainstream, um, is because it it has connections and the audience is is is always, I think, the probably the first quarter of call. But I think, um, there are other options and they are They are. And here's Here's a comment, actually, [00:16:00] Um, um, on that as well. So, um, Nicky McDonald writing It's hard to avoid the conclusion that fewer Kiwi writers will end up in print unless they slap a self published text on Amazon and embark on the difficult task of self. Actually, she's she's got spruiking. So I think that's like, you know, kind of show shoving your hips out there and and kind of self promoting. [00:16:30] So, um, but, you know, the I think the positives are that, um, New Zealand Kiwis are very keen to read their own stories, and, uh, we have a unique experience here in New Zealand that is valuable. And, um and and there are there is there is a remarkably big audience keen to see and listen to those stories. So, um, would you believe in 2011? A quarter of the books sold here in New Zealand were created [00:17:00] in New Zealand. So that's that's remarkable, really. And so II I think that that some of the options certainly are to to actually produce your your own books to either produce your own, um, your own individual books or actually as a collective. And this is what I'm thinking, uh, would be, uh, something that I might look at later on when I've got a little bit more time in my life is actually to create [00:17:30] some, um, an eBook publishing company or where, where, in fact, um, you've got a board and you've got editors. And you've got the kind of facilities that, um, a normal publisher. You know, I had one of our sort of traditional publisher would have but to offer that, um uh, audience, um market, but also the expertise and the skills. And in fact, um, that's what we have in abundance at the moment because there are so many, um, editors and people out there who are [00:18:00] looking for work because they they frankly, um, the the mainstream publishers are not here in the way that they were. So, um, there's lots of opportunities. I I think I must point out, because I've written about two writers recently. That's my last two books. So I'd like to finish with, um with with the fact that so I think one of our options certainly is eBook and certainly actually ebook publishing companies that actually do, uh, much that the mainstream does but doesn't [00:18:30] have that huge overhead commitment. Um, so that so Those are those are the options that I'm certainly going to look at, Um, as, uh, you know, in the future, um, for some of the titles that I don't think will grip a a, um, a mainstream publisher. Um, but 11 of the things I think is that the old relationship between publishers and authors has changed anyway. Um, and and I after writing about Marsh and then about, um, Anne Perry, um, there was a great, heartfelt enthusiasm when they, um, had successes. [00:19:00] Uh, they were contacted. There was constant, um, communication letters. And, uh, I just want the beginning. At the beginning of last year, I arrived back in New Zealand and I went to my hairdressers and, um and and I was, uh I was I. I had a job that year because I lost my job the year before, Um, we were all made redundant. And, um, I had a job, so I thought, Well, I'm going to go back to my old hairdresser. Um and, uh, she she said to me, she shouted across the room, Congratulations. You're on the New York Times best seller list. And [00:19:30] I thought, What a cool thing to do. And so I thought I thought this It's really mean and II I said, you gotta be kidding. And so I said, Well, I must surely I must have heard about that from my you know, like my agent or my publisher. No, I heard it from my hairdresser and she was actually right. So So So in fact, in in fact, even in mainstream stream publishing, you are a much more of a commodity. The notion [00:20:00] of, um, developing a career of sticking with an author of of taking them through the various stages in life and publishing is, is is is kind of a bit of an old story now, So you do need to be savvy. You do need to be into self promotion, and you kind of do need to look at new options and they are out there in a way that they've never been before with the expertise, Um, there as well. So I I'm gonna stop there and and, um thank you. [00:20:30] Now, Chris, who, um, actually wrote an essay in New Zealand books in 2011 called Bookmaking. Um, where he sort of explained this concept of the second sector in publishing. And, uh, this is an audio visual. Well, it's a visual multi visual presentation. There's a wee video that I think accompanies. This is, uh there is, uh, the audio is me talking. The visual is the video, which, um, up about Oh, it's just warming up. OK, [00:21:00] um, can we just pop it on and pause it to start with? I just wanted to to mention a couple of things. Um, Firstly, to mention Carol, who has stocked our book and Ian, who has helped me with that book. So, um, I'd like to thank them both. I think in a sense, my little journey started off when, um, Ian counselled me on what to do about a body of material that really interesting photographs of Robert Gant that I couldn't interest interest a publisher in and so Ian, um helped me out and he [00:21:30] edited. And my friend Katie did the design, and that was our first kind of book that we then did under the genre Books imprint. And as Paul mentioned, there have been several since. What I want to do today, though, is a brief, fairly brief. I think this last four minutes I want to talk about the second book, which is two by two men in pairs. There are about three copies remaining in the world for sale. One is on the table out there, and the other two are in my bag. Um, and this was conceived [00:22:00] as a little thank you for those who'd been so helpful and wonderful with with helping us get man infections out there, and we ended up selling it as well. But the thing that that I really like about this wee book it is to South Island language. We It's about that kind of that kind of big, um was that it fuses, in a sense, the new ideas of sort of do it yourself publishing with some very, very old technologies. And so this was a book that was printed in Dunedin. It was bound in Dunedin by David [00:22:30] Steadman of duty Bound A, um, a book binded just around the corner from a speed where the book was printed. And, um Then, about two years later, I went up to Pompeo house with my partner, Jeffrey, who who has been involved in genre books as well as the business manager and saw them making books in 18 forties style and thought. Actually, not a lot has changed. So I will stop burbling and make the start. So this is just a wee a wee video that I'll [00:23:00] just talk you through. This is an image from the book. Um, coming off what's essentially a high definition photocopier. So reasonably newish technology, Um, books folded up here. Now, this is the work that David, um, did in his, um, here he is here in his craftsman studio in Dunedin. A very old book, sewing machine. So basically print, um, fold the signatures, and then it's going to be sewn on this machine here, which I actually [00:23:30] I should have kept the sound on. It makes this marvellous clacking noise as he basically folds a folded page over. Um, that bit I don't know what that's called into that bit. I don't know what this is called, and then the needles come down and you'll see the cotton sewing the signatures together. This, of course, was done by hand. Um, at Pompeo mission. Um, if you go up there and do the tour, you'll see this is then the intermediate kind of technology. Fairly hands on. Nice [00:24:00] and old fashioned, not too old fashioned. And then what you get is a great big stack of signatures like this which are going to be packed at that point, every diagonal thread, um, and you'll then see that David is then assembling them in the guillotine, uh, down, um, to sort of squash them so you don't end up with a, you know, really, really fat book. Um, and then after a while, rather sort of violent thing happens, which I'll let you see the violent thing, uh, with [00:24:30] your own eyes. Um, before that happens, uh, the glue machine has to glue them. So I took my kind of video into his into his workshop and took these kind of images. Um, basically, once it's glued together, you'll see the spine is now kind of glued and the ends are trimmed. The book, as I mentioned, is tiny. And so each, uh, of those long things is actually two books which have been cut in half, which is what we're going to see next. [00:25:00] So he's kind of lining this up. You'll notice there's no cover. The cover is the next bit of the process. Um, protecting the book block and down we go on to it, Um, and then a sort of a pregnant pause before a rather slightly concerning thing happens. Yes. And you think, Oh, my God. It squashed it. [00:25:30] What's it gonna do now? Um, so again, cutting, trimming This is the trimming kind of stage. Um, going on here, the inner part of the book block, Uh, will then have a cover made and wrapped around it. Um, I'll just mention as I as I'm going through. Ian edited the text for us for this, too. Um, and then and then Carson copies. Um, And so basically, what we're doing here, the cover boards, as they [00:26:00] called literally, um, with a thinner piece in the middle. Um, and the uh wrapped around them. Here's a wee stack of them. We made, I think about 100 and 30 copies. 100 and 40 copies. So fairly small. Run. Um, and then the the cover, uh, lettering was hand, um, stamped using old fashion. Movable type. So really some kind of cool, Um, older technologies. This is the, uh, the press, uh, through which [00:26:30] the type is imposed. This is the we image on the front cover, and I will show the notes so you can see the book block the end papers, the covers all sitting there waiting to be glued together, and they will then be put in a press pause. Um, in the end product of the book. Um, the hand stamp letter on the front. This is a, um that picture I showed you cut and and sort of sunk into the cover. Um, the front letter was [00:27:00] actually a plate that we had made up and the movable type on the spine so sold through bookshops and and the Internet, but using a really old kind of technology. And as someone who's done a lot of history, I really like that idea of the old and the new kind of coming together. And what was a fairly craft based kind of, uh, project downsides of this. The retail cost is quite high because the cost of hand binding is reasonably expensive [00:27:30] per copy. Uh, the cost of printing small runs can be high, although not so much if you're not using colour. Uh, the later books were paperback, uh, perfect or burst binding, and they were much cheaper to produce. The whole thing has been a huge amount of fun. Really. For someone who's essentially quite shy like me, it's actually been It's quite hard because you've really got to, um, as Joe said, Spruik your kind [00:28:00] of work and get out there and stick yourself up and go buy my book. And And if you're a bit of a kind of a, um you know, shy person, then you end up with this kind of weird feeling of kind of selling stuff at people the whole time. So it's a really fascinating thing to do, um, kind of disturbing in a way, but also really kind of rewarding. Um, I'll leave you with that thought, I think. Thank you. [00:28:30] And this, um, it's been quite a, um, interesting time for me over the last couple. of days reflecting on, um, sort of particularly beginning with last night where we heard about, um, people's experiences. I mean, they were talking about the books that kind of turned on the light, but basically what we got an overview of was kind of people's coming out stories. And I really felt like, um, my story was told through, um, many of the many of the people [00:29:00] who were here, um so I won't go too much into my, um um uh, uh, history of my sexuality. But what I realised is that my motivation as a writer and as a publisher really emerges out of what happened to me. Um, during my childhood and there were two issues that, um, really bamboozled me and the first was, um, my sexuality. And I mean, people talked about the moment when they realised that I mean, I feel like for me from my first um, conscious moment, [00:29:30] I knew that there was something different about me, and it was something that I actually felt very guilty about and and, um, made me feel very disconnected from the world. So that was the first issue. And, um, a lot of the texts which people talked about last night. A boy's own story by Edmund White. Um, Quentin. Chris, Um, a naked civil servant. Those were the first texts where I actually felt like I saw something even close to my experience, Um, reflected back at me. Um, but the other issue that was really confusing for me was the issue of [00:30:00] my cultural identity. Because, um, I have a mixed cultural heritage. My father, um, immigrated to New Zealand from Switzerland in the 19 fifties, and my mother is, um, in, uh, uh, from the east coast of the North Island. So I had this, um, quite unusual. Um uh, cultural mix. And they were both, um, equally, um, unusual, because they're very artistic. So my dad was a photographer. Um uh, [00:30:30] when he first arrived here, Um, and my mother was, um, first Maori writer to win of Katherine Mansfield Award and one of our first bilingual, um, poets, and is actually very, very significant in terms of our literary history, even though she's not not as famous as some of the writers who followed her. So that was, um, what I was brought up in, And, um, I was kind of secreted away in this very creative, um um, home. And, uh, my [00:31:00] first five years were spent in in North, in Northland, where Mom and Dad taught at the local high school. And, um, we were known as the kids because, um, we all the other Children, um, spoke maori and, um, had two Maori parents I didn't have, and, um, I had, uh, uh a Swiss father. You know, a Swiss father. Um, and my parents were also liberal, so they, um they wouldn't let us go to religious instructions with [00:31:30] the rest of the Children. And we went off to the headmaster's house to have lunch with him and his wife and, um, in a very strong Catholic community. So there are all these things that kind of set me apart and certainly in terms of, um, figuring out who I was, um, in in terms of my cultural identity and my sexuality, those were, um, very difficult issues for me to negotiate, as I, um, as I transitioned into adulthood. And, um uh, my, [00:32:00] uh, I'm going to read. Um, this was, uh, the first edition of my mother's writing, which I've published, Um, and This is a photograph of her which my father took and used to hang in our kitchen. And, um so this, you know, he was photographing her nude in the in the 19 fifties, which gives you an idea of, um, what type of people they both were, Um, so quite forward thinking. And [00:32:30] I think, um, avant garde. And, um, this was the first cover on the book, and I'll explain why we've changed the cover as I progress on on my story. But I'd like to read, um, a little bit from an essay that she wrote in 1959 and, um won a Katherine Mansfield Award a special award because the S a was too short. But they were so impressed. They gave her the special award, and she's talking about, um, her life back on the east coast, um, north [00:33:00] of Gisborne. As long as he the Maori is conscious of his kinship ties, the Maori will never become as truly individualistic as the Pakeha. To me, that more than more than the retention of the language is what constitutes Maori. And it will, in my opinion, be the only permanent trait that distinguishes him from the The essay won the prize for the best short article in the Catherine Mansfield [00:33:30] Memorial Competition 1959 and cemented a position in the emerging Maori literary canon. She was first and foremost a poet. Her short stories and essays, however, give a detailed sense of time and place for the prose, the love poetry for pears as central as if everything else emerged out of that space. So she was predicting, um that, you know that that what she said was, um, the lang the [00:34:00] language will decline, but, um, the sense of family will always set us apart. Um, and interestingly enough, she was, uh, she was bilingual, and and, uh, for the last 15 years of her career, um, taught was head of Maori at Auckland girls grammar. But she never passed that on to us as Children. And so, um, and it was interesting listening for me to listen to, um, this morning talking about [00:34:30] Maori, which, um I, um really for for 90% of my life is irrelevant to my functioning. And, um, because I wasn't brought up with it. When I have to engage with it, I find it very um it's very policing of behaviour. Um, that's its primary, um, uh, function and not being brought up with it. And I realised [00:35:00] this around religion. Um, and around that, um, because I had a childhood that was absent of those two things that I feel that my mind is very free. And as a Maori writer, I don't have many boundaries About what I, um what I can write and how I can express myself because I wasn't brought up with those things. And I must say, as an adult, um, I feel very, very grateful, Um that those things were absent as a child because I think [00:35:30] what my parents gave me was, um, a free mind. So, um, trying to make sense of my child, Uh, my identity on those two levels are very confusing. I went to, um, university as, um as an adult student and, um, studied English, and I was really, um I was very, very drawn to postmodernism and because to me that made sense of of who I was, Um, and [00:36:00] the things that I liked about it was this, uh, sort of, um, um notion that there is no truth because all of us have a different version of the truth. Um, so And that, um that as globalisation increases that the importance of individual cultures will decline and we will become part of this kind of shared, um, international, Um, culture. I was very attracted to [00:36:30] that because it made sense of my, um, mixed heritage and and how I felt about, um, myself and the different components of that all fitted together. So, um, out of that I, I then, um, studied a lot of Maori literature at university. And what really frustrated me was I couldn't see myself in these stories. And, um, if if you look at, um you know, uh, Maori Films, for example um, you know, there's [00:37:00] once were warriors. There's the Whale Rider. The fable, um, there's again back to, uh, the warrior in history. So I didn't see my contemporary reality, um, reflected back at me. So that then motivated me to write and later on to publish. And that's how I got to being a publisher. So the first thing I did was, um I, uh I decided OK, we need a Maori, um, landfall. And, um what my my beef [00:37:30] at that time was, you know, to me, Maori literature is absent of almost, um, any middle class experience. So I wanted to start a journal to see, actually, you know what is out there? And, um, I've since published two, issues. Um, both of which I. I don't have any copies left. So, um, I couldn't bring them to show you. But the second, um, the second issue was a combination of Maori and abor aboriginal writers. [00:38:00] And I'll just read you, um, a paragraph from the introduction, Um uh, which says that indigenous identities are in a state of flux as they respond to a raft of global economic, social and environmental influences. As a vehicle of cultural survival and change, literature is the space where these evolutions are most clearly in focus. This collection celebrates the identities of the indigenous peoples [00:38:30] of the antiquities and gives us a sense of how Maori and Aboriginal define themselves in this moment. Um, and what I think is, um, happening in terms of writing and publishing is that I think that over time we will see, and what we're witnessing is the disappearance of other because, um what we have with, um uh, um with the domination of publishing, um, dissipating [00:39:00] from these big publishing houses, we have many, many more voices. So we have a multiplicity of voices, and I believe over time that this notion of other will disappear because we will all be other. And I guess my mission as a publisher is to move myself from the periphery into the centre and, um, particularly in my writing, uh, my gaze is towards the heterosexual and, for example, [00:39:30] and, um, so I write as if I'm in the centre looking at them. And that was, um, very much my mission as a writer and, um, and publisher. And where I think that we are heading is from, um, a postcolonial space into, um, a diversity space. Um, where we all have a voice. And certainly that's my, um, mission in publishing. So which brings me back to, uh, my mother's collection of [00:40:00] writing. Um, and this is the, um, second cover which we went to and what I found with the nude on the front cover, which I, um I love that image of my mother. I was brought up with it. Um, but what I found was when I gave the book to people, I could see that it created, um, discomfort. And where I got to was, I thought, Well, I can go on my own artistic trip, but if I'm not going to be able to kind of bring bring people on the journey, then that becomes a block. So I, [00:40:30] um this was the second cover again. My parents are nude. Um, but you can, um but you I mean, this is as much as you see. Um, and in the end, I It was a really interesting journey, which happened over about 18 months. But actually, this is a really, um, a much better reflection of what's inside the book. Which is, um, lots of love poetry, Um, and and about this intense, um, passionate relationship, um, between, uh, a Swiss man and and his maori, um, lover. [00:41:00] And, um, alongside that I published my my sister is also a poet, and this is her, um, and to create some resonance. Um, between the two. we've just got this kind of little connection here. Um, so I'm very also, um, you know, I'm very, um I'm an athlete. I'm very fussy. about aesthetic. Um, this took, um, 18 months to kind of, uh, realise itself. And I know that if I had [00:41:30] been negotiating that, um, with, uh, a a publish publisher, not myself, that it would have been. I mean, it would have been impossible to get this product. So being, I think being, um uh, a self publisher. What it does is it gives me the freedom to, um, have a voice and and also frame it in my own way. And I find that really, really, um, liberating. And, um yeah, I think I think that's, um, probably enough, but, [00:42:00] um, yes. Anyway, thank you very much. Cheers. Yeah. Carol, let's say here, I'm gonna be brief because I think we need a bit of time for discussion. Time's getting on. Um, I love paddling my own waka, and that is one of the reasons that the Women's Bookshop is successful and thriving is because I love [00:42:30] what I do. Um, my job is my hobby is my passion is my life's work. And so I love it. And small, good independent bookshops who know what they're doing and do it well are all thriving. We're not just surviving, we're thriving. And in Auckland, I would name Unity Books in High Street time out in Mount Eden and the Women's Bookshop in In. We used to be in Dominion Road in Ponsonby Road. We are the Those three shops in particular, uh, are all [00:43:00] thriving and doing really well. Um, the Christmas before last, we said, This is the best Christmas ever. The one that's just happened topped it. And I mean, I joke. Now I'll be going almost 27 years. And this Christmas, I actually had money left over in the bank to pay the now huge penguin Random House bill because all your books come from Penguin and Random House and Allen and Unwin in one lot. So your deliveries are huge and the bill is huge. I had enough money left in the bank for the January [00:43:30] payment, and that's the first time ever. And I say it only took me 27 years to do it. Um, over those 27 years, cash flow has often been a nightmare. You get to the end of the month and you haven't got enough money to pay the publishers and, uh, many of them have been extremely patient. But we offer I believe the reason we survive and why Borders didn't and why Whit calls has retrenched and why, um, the big chains are disappearing is that what we can do [00:44:00] in small, independent bookshops is offer a service that no one else can offer, including the Internet. We can we read my staff, all read, and I've just taken on a new staff member. She's 19. She couldn't read much till the university exams finished, and she has been churning through the books in the few weeks that she's being there. She can now speak to customers about the books, and she listens to what we say. And if she hasn't read it, she'll say no. I heard Carol telling someone blah, blah, blah. She's bright, She's smart. [00:44:30] So even our 19 year old can talk to the customers about the books. We gift wrap them. We recommend them. People ring me up from Wellington and say, I'm coming, going to Auckland for Christmas. I need a book for my uncle, A book for my they They list me seven books. I pick the books. I gift wrap them. She arrives from Wellington, picks up her bag of books, gift wrap, and every time we've got it right, so we're offering a service that cannot be offered by anybody else. So that's the first key thing, Um, [00:45:00] the other I'm not gonna be a bit negative. I'm sorry, because there's this idea out there that everybody's got a book on them and I'm sorry. The terrible reality is that many people out there think they've got a book in them, but they haven't. And we have this nightmare of people coming into the bookshop with self published books. And you take one look and we look at each other and what we've actually done is we've to take the load [00:45:30] off me because people come in and say, I've been told to come and talk to Carol. So I now have a staff member who, you know, the the the self published people. We've developed a contract because people have no idea what they're doing at all. And so we they have to go through. We go through it with them and they have. If we decide we're gonna stop their book, they have to sign a contract that says things like this is what it will cost. And if they don't sell, you will have to take them back. And, um, you know, we [00:46:00] will keep them in the shop, and we'll let you know when we come to stock. Take time a year later that none of your books are sold and you need to come and collect them. And if you don't collect them after three months, we're gonna have to put them in the rubbish bin. So come and collect them. Please. Uh, we have to actually spell that out for people because they have no idea they'll ring ring up after a week and say, this is what used to happen. Have any of my books sold yet? Can you pay me? Um and this is the ones that are actually good enough to be accepted. So many of them that come in are crap. I'm [00:46:30] sorry. Let's be blunt. Their covers are appalling. They have not been edited. They need Ian to edit them. They need you with your aesthetics to look at the layout and the design. And one of the great dangers of the Internet is there are no gatekeepers. Anybody can publish any crap they like on the Internet, and a huge percentage of it is absolute crap. And that's I'm sorry, but that's the terrible, negative reality we have to face up to it. So that I I [00:47:00] agree with Joe, there is a pub. There is a problem for the really good writers who, you know, the the the The market in New Zealand is retrenched. We're a very small population, and for the good people, it is harder. I still believe if it's good enough, you'll get it published. Um, but if you're going to publish it yourself, employ one of these editors who is out of work. There are people out there with great skills who can help you learn how to learn about distribution. I mean, people [00:47:30] coming in that they have, they've, um, bringing my book to you. Would you sell it? They have no understanding that someone needs to distribute it to bookshops around the country they have no idea about and marketing. And there are publicists out there who, from publishing companies, a lot of of, um, self-employed publish publicists who set up their own little companies who will help you promote and market that book. But there's a whole writing. The book is just one part of it, and even when it's good, that's just one part of it. It has to be sold [00:48:00] and distributed. It has to be marketed OK, and people have no idea about that. Can I tell you the key thing? If any of you are thinking of of publishing a book, you have to put it on Nielsen book data. It's a free service. I can give you her email if you don't know what it is. You just email the email her the the woman whose name I forget at Neilsen who who receives all the information. It's a free service. She will give you a list of what you have to give her a cover image. A brief [00:48:30] blurb about the book, all the details about it. It goes up on Nielsen book data online, and that is the resource that all English speaking booksellers the world over use to find a book. So if you publish a book and it's not on Nielsen, a customer comes in and says, um, Harry. Blogs published this book called So and So and I look it up, and it's not on Nielsen. It doesn't exist as far as a bookseller is concerned. The book does not exist because [00:49:00] there is no way we can find it. So the most key thing, and it's it's the top thing on our list of things. On the contract of things you must do. Number one listed on Nielsen book data online. It is absolutely crucial. Um, so I'm sorry to be negative, but, you know, if you're gonna write something, give it to your friends and ask them to be honest, you know, um, because really, there is a lot of stuff [00:49:30] out there that you know is it's just not good enough. Sorry. Um, but the good stuff is is going well. And people, I do believe have gone back to real books, and I agree about we are selling. Um, by the way, if you're gonna get an E reader by a cobo, not a I have to do my political thing here by a cobo, not a kindle. Kindle has become this name like Electrolux means vacuum cleaner. Kindle means E reader kindles are evil. [00:50:00] They are connected to to Amazon. One of the many reasons that penguin and random house have joined forces is that as a now huge company, they are big enough to tell Amazon to E off. And that's one of the reasons they've done it. Because Amazon demand these huge, huge, um, percentages off the books they buy. And you've got to be a really big publishing company to resist that, um so Amazon is really evil. Um, and [00:50:30] and and I mean act politically, so, so nasty. I mean, they don't pay taxes. They actually bribe people to go into my bookshop, take a photograph of the, um of the back cover or the title page of the book with the bar code and the ISB and then order it from Amazon, and they reward them for doing that. I mean, really evil business practises. Um, the good thing about is that New Zealand libraries use Cobos. You can borrow books on your you can actually use Cobo on your iPad or your phone or [00:51:00] other devices. Um, and um, you can do that just either going to our website and clicking on the Cobo button or going directly to Cobo and load them onto your own devices. So please remember, use Cobos website rather than than, um, Kindle kindle Amazon. Same thing. And remember, the book depository is now owned by Amazon as well. Um, so avoid them. Go if you can. To a small, independent bookshop. We are thriving. We do it well. And we welcome [00:51:30] you. Yeah. Kyoto Carol panel. Um, that was a fantastic overview of what's going on. Great to hear about the, um, the pushback from bookshops. But, yes, I think that it's an interesting week because, um, Amazon has just opened a shop in Seattle. Yeah, they're opening a series of bookshops, so they're on to you, kind of, um, but what you [00:52:00] said Carol reminded me of something that Finlay McDonald who I think said Harper Collins isn't. He said on media with an O'Brien when he was talking, and he said, The period we come out we're coming out of was actually an unusual period with the proliferation of publishing, and he said that, like what you're saying there actually were a lot of books that saw the light that probably shouldn't have, because it's not that long ago that New Zealand writers had to be published in England or Australia or America. You know, we are coming out of an odd a bit of an odd period. So [00:52:30] what's really encouraging and what everyone's been saying is that it's now possible to get these voices out there. There's a multiplicity of voices. It seems to me one of the thinking about this session. The big challenge is how do you connect with your audience? Um so, Chris, tell us how, how I mean, what are your thoughts about how you how self purposes can connect with audiences? I think a gay audience is probably easier to connect with than a diverse audience because you can target. I mean gay NZ dot com, for instance, were fantastic. Jackie Stanford, you know, would do stories [00:53:00] on all of our books. They go on Facebook, they get linked through to that. So that kind of electronic, um, publicity within a queer community is actually easier to do, I think because you can identify the community When we sold um, Manu fictions, we developed a mailing list from the copies we sold directly. We could use that mailing list to sell the next set of books through, so I actually have a fair, and I'm going to talk in the next session about my forthcoming teenager book. I wouldn't like to market [00:53:30] that myself and I, I might tell you why then, but But the gay, um, the gay books are easier because the niche is identifiable and and you can actually get into it. And wouldn't every studies course on the planet be looking at your books as part of their course list? That would be nice. Long term, Anton. What are your thoughts about the promotion and connecting with audiences? Um, I think that, um, with Mum's book, for example. I mean, she had her own, you know, she had her [00:54:00] own brand was aware, um, things that have really helped that sell. And we've just gone on to the second print run just before Christmas. So the first one sold really quickly and really Well, um, and that was because of our own notoriety. But, I mean, you just for me. I mean, my my background in P A You can't beat mainstream media. You know, your interviews on Radio New Zealand? Um, all that sort of thing. As soon as I did that, um um, we would get spikes in sales in terms [00:54:30] of thinking about being a text university with the, um, with the literary journals, for example, I would have thought that I would have thought a new journal of contemporary Maori writing. They'll be banging my door down. But I, I think it's really, really subjective. So I've just, um, I. I had boxes and boxes of the first issue left over, so I thought, I'm going to throw half of them away. And two weeks later, University approached me, sort of saying, Can we have buy a whole set? I mean, but that's taken, um, four years. And that was really because of [00:55:00] who I knew. That was a friend. He said, Yeah. And, um, it just did occur to me as somebody who works at the National Library to anyone who has published and and their books are in New Zealand libraries. You should be registered for the public lending right, which, um, registration closes for the next year and first of March. If you don't know what I'm talking about, ask me afterwards. Ian, um was interested in your thoughts after having heard from this whole whole brains trust. And just one. I wanted your thoughts about one thing that occurred to me also in thinking about this intellectual property protection, because [00:55:30] it's all very well to sort of get your material out there. But is there a risk if you are doing it yourself and it doesn't go out with the sort of contractual protection that it might through a publishing house, what are the risks there? And I think you know, the the list you read of those best sellers is very soul. But also, you know what we were talking about last night? The fact that dangerous desires came out of a major publishing house. You know, publishers add an enormous amount of value, I mean, and so, you know, I've had the experience of working with big houses. It's it's extraordinary. I know the models are changing, but you know, I, I always think it's important [00:56:00] to acknowledge the value. And I mean the the one of the upsides in this conversation today is this idea that there's a whole raft of unemployed editors and designers and publicists out there waiting to help. But anyway, your thoughts Ian, about what? What The West have said today. Um, well, as far as copyright protection is concerned. I think that's a difficulty for, um, all kinds of creative producers and, um I, I think without a publishing house behind you, it's difficult to keep control of of anything [00:56:30] like that. I simply say to people, when they do put their material out there to, um, ensure that, uh, you know, it has got a copyright sign on it at least, and, um, to make sure that it is, uh, registered in, um uh in in an official way. One comment on on Ian's five. Sorry, Joe on Ian's top five is that the top one was actually the, um, Dan Carter bio was [00:57:00] actually published by Upstart Press, which is has been mentioned today and other, and that is a little a little, um, publishing house. But it was. It's been set up by Kevin Chapman, who used to be the managing director of Hachette, which we've also mentioned as being gone set up, as he used to do brilliant rugby and sports books with his. He's now doing it under Upstart, but he also published Greg McGee's Um, novel, which is what's it called, Um, which is, uh, um, long list for the in the fiction section [00:57:30] of the, um of the the now called New Zealand Book Awards. And so that is a tiny publisher doing really well doing good stuff in New Zealand to say that, um, I, I actually think that the that the real future is, um, with independent, uh, publishers, publishing companies and and bookstores. I really I do believe that because I think it does represent much a much more diverse voice because I think that that big, um, big, uh, blockbuster [00:58:00] huge corporations deal in blockbuster themes. Ideas? Yeah, So it's It's Yeah, yeah, it is. But the one of the things that I found really interesting I visited um, Harper Collins in London in the in the new kind of news building, and I would talk to one of the one of the big bosses there, and he did say that Now, now mainstream big publishers go through all the, um, the self published books and look at [00:58:30] sales, and then they approach the authors. So So So it's It's quite an interesting thing. So if you I didn't realise that and and he said, lots of people are putting their books on, you know, and selling them that way. And the big publishers are going through looking at the sales and going, Yeah, we we'll we'll publish it. And the shades of shades of grey. Yeah, it was one of those self published, you know, and really, really badly done, but yeah, but But the thing is that, you know, I think if I'm I'm I would [00:59:00] always go mainstream if I can. But the independent and smaller things I think are looking much more attractive, much more they've they've got that kind of ability to run and move fast and and be intelligent and thoughtful and and actually put some integrity into it, which, I think, um, you know, just doesn't happen with the those those huge corporations which are just about bucks. They just about that money. And, you know, I mean, as a writer, you you Everybody knows that you can You don't write for the money. That's [00:59:30] if you did. You would do something else. I would sell my body better, I think, for more money than almost the science, perhaps, but, um, you know it for more money. Uh, then then I could, um uh, you know, my, um you know making even even The New York Times. But you know, the thing is that there are lots of options, and I I think what you have to do is, if you've got something that you think is great, then maybe you will find a publisher. And if you haven't, if you still think it's great and you've run it past your friends and then you've got [01:00:00] some experts to look at the design and look at the way the editing and you and you've got a good product, it's got a chance out there because there is. There are people looking for those sort of sales and there is an audience here. I mean, it's amazing to see all the people have come to today. You know, I I'm not, you know, not that much. Um, you know, marketing. Really? I mean, who can afford to do that? But there is a we we are. We are hungry readers. And New Zealand. New Zealand is hungry for New Zealand stories, so I think that as long as [01:00:30] that happens, what a great night. We're out of time. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. There isn't time for questions, but you know the best way to ask these guys questions is to buy their books and have a chat at the table out there where they'll be very soon. They're very diverse. You'll see it's a mixed picture in this brave new world. But, um, I think the thing that links these guys together is this incredible passion, Um, for the work that they do And and I guess that's the one of the lessons is that's what gets you there. In the end, if you've got that passion and, uh, and the belief in what you're doing and your writing, then you will get there and, um, also take notice of what they've said. [01:01:00] All of these people that are out there to help, uh, realise that that passion and that dream So join me in thanking this fabulous brains trust panel this afternoon.
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