This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
OK, well, firstly, my name is, uh I'm a squad leader in the Royal New Zealand Air Force. Um, I'm also the chair of the, uh, Overwatch peer support and networking organisation. The defence force has come a long way in the last 2030 years. Um, certainly, in the years leading up to the 1993 Human Rights Act, uh, life in the defence force for gay and lesbian only gay and lesbian. Uh, um, service people was not easy. Um, we didn't just, uh, discriminate. We actively prosecuted men and women and [00:00:30] gay men and women. And essentially, if if people identified as gay or lesbian, then they were likely to serve under a reasonable amount of paranoia and fear that their career would end if their identity were disclosed. Um And so it was a particularly for some people. Certainly. It was a particularly stressful time. Do you know the number of people that were kind of discriminated against? It's It's very difficult to, um, put fingers [00:01:00] on on actual specific numbers, partly because a lot of that is hidden are protected by the Privacy Act. Um, people may be discharged because their service was considered uh, incompatible. Or that their behaviour was considered incompatible with the service. So it wouldn't necessarily specifically say this individual was was discharged because they were gay, for example. But we do know that certainly a reasonable amount of people were discharged. Um, certainly between 1986 and 1993 in some way related to their, uh, orientation. When did you join the force? [00:01:30] I transferred to the New Zealand defence force and and, uh, began serving with the Royal New Zealand Air Force in November 2006. Before that, I had previously served in the Royal Air Force in the UK and, uh, had have done since 1999. And what was the status of, um, Rainbow people in the UK defence force? Uh, changeable. Certainly. When I first signed up, uh, it was still illegal to be openly gay in the British military, and I guess, much like, [00:02:00] um, people serving in New Zealand before the the Human Rights Act. You know, we served under a a real concern that if we were found out or even suspected, then we would be investigated or potentially arrested. Um, our quarters would be searched. Our families would be interviewed, all that kind of thing. And essentially, if found guilty, we'd be discharged dishonourably, and we'd lose access to pensions and a career, and and it it was a pretty difficult time. Um, back then, um, whilst I was serving [00:02:30] in the RF, the the ban was lifted, and and and essentially, that was very much, uh, something of a non event. All of the concerns around, um, open service, undermining operational effectiveness or unit cohesion just simply didn't come. Um, gradually, more and more people began to come out of the closet. Um, and it it's been great to see how far the the British military has come in, you know, in 10, 12 years since the the ban was lifted. So that's really positive. How [00:03:00] did that affect you in the in the British forces? How? I mean, did you go in as as as a gay male, or did you kind of come out I? I was never actually at at my interview to join the RF. I was never asked if I was gay. I was asked if I was aware that homosexuality was considered incompatible with the service, which I said Yes, I was. And I was then asked if that was going to be a problem for me, and I said, No, it's not, um, at that stage, I was still, I guess, [00:03:30] coming to terms with my own identity and I'd never had a relationship with anybody. So I thought it was a pretty reasonable, um, statement to make at the time. But certainly, I think, as I became more conscious of who I was and who I wanted to be, Um then, yes, that was when the sort of the pressures began to build and and sort of the the double life began to kick in. And and I think like a lot of other people at the time, um, you know, we sort of would would try and sort of maintain two separate lives. You have the professional military life, and then you'd keep your private life preferably away from base, um, [00:04:00] sort of, you know, getting to know the gay scene and and sort of find out who we are. So how fearful were you of being discovered? Hello? It It sort of came into peaks and troughs. In a way, I think I think there were occasions when you know, realistically you're focusing on the job in hand and and, you know, issues of orientation identity sort of right at the back of your mind. Um, I think certainly having relationships with people while serving at the time was very difficult, because, uh, you know, you [00:04:30] have to meet people further away from the base. You were worried that people might see you together and and put two and two together and come up with the right answer and or simply the more you began to, I suppose, you know, explore your your identity. There was a degree of paranoid that people might be able to figure it, figure it out themselves and and, uh, and talk to the wrong people, and it all comes tumbling down. Can you talk about the, um, you you mentioned the word kind of incompatibility with with the defence force and I'm wondering, are they the same in the [00:05:00] UK as they were kind of perceived in New Zealand? And what kind of inabilities? It's It's an interesting one. Essentially, it was a bit of a catch all and I I understand that at the time it was a way for the defence force to sort of, um and and this is something which, you know, survives to this day. The certainly the New Zealand defence Force Chief, um, has the the authority to, um, discharge anybody who he believes is, um simply not whose [00:05:30] behaviour has perhaps brought the defence force into disrepute. Um, so, for you know, someone is is, um, guilty of a specific crime, then their service with the the NZTF could be considered un untenable. Um, but I think back then simply engaging in any kind of homosexual act could be considered incompatible with service. So if you were, um, having a AAA physical relationship with an individual that could be considered incompatible if you were seen walking down the street holding hands with somebody, then that could be considered [00:06:00] incompatible. Um, so a lot of it was was focusing more on behaviour and less on on identity. But those two things I think when you can look at homosexuality are race are tightly woven. And so it's, uh yeah, it was an interesting time. So in the early nineties, the the the attitude in the defence force changed. And can you tell me Why? Why was that change happening? I think within within New Zealand. There there was a a groundswell, [00:06:30] Um, of of opinion that, uh, you know, the human rights, uh, sort of issues were sort of right of coming to the fore. And I think within the defence force, I think it became clear that, um, certainly in the the months, possibly years, leading up to the 1993 act that the writing was well and truly on the wall And that, um, defence would, um, have to, uh, sort of accept sort of the the direction that society was moving in. And I think there was also a degree of of common sense. I believe within the military that a lot of the arguments [00:07:00] that people had had made about, um the risks of open service simply weren't particularly well founded And that actually, rather than treat, um, for example, rather than say, well, we can't have homosexuals because their behaviour is incompatible. Well, let's actually identify what we consider to be incompatible behaviour. Um, and similarly there there were issues certainly at the time surrounding, um, HIV aids and in the military. So we put ourselves at quite [00:07:30] significant risk from time to time and and blood transfusions. And and there was a lot of concern about how that would handle, uh, be handled. And, um, I think the way we have traditionally looked at it was, well, we can't have gays because gays have AIDS. And therefore we can't have gays in the military because there's a risk of blood, um, infection that's being passed on to straight service people. Instead, you know, they took the more pragmatic approach, which will say, Well, let's actually look at that a bit deeper. We can have perfectly capable professional trained gay service people who, and we [00:08:00] can simply put in a policy that addresses their health as opposed to their identity. And and that's essentially the the way the the the military decided to go. So was that one of the main arguments about kind of AIDS and HIV? It was an argument. Um, I think there were other, slightly more, um, the sort of the moral debate about just homosexuals in general and, um, the the the really sort of outdated arguments I suppose about how we might sort of undermine, um, unit cohesion and operation [00:08:30] effectiveness but, uh, yeah. So can you talk to me about going from the early nineties, where the Human Rights Act came in? Until now, what have been the changes in the defence force in regard to rainbow people? I think it's been, um, profoundly positive. I think you know, we're now seeing an increasing number of, uh, open rainbow people. Um, serving within the defence force in a range of, uh, ranks, um, professions and the [00:09:00] various arms of the defence, as well as our civilian staff as well. And I think that increasing visibility and and exposure to, um, gay people lesbians has really it's it's destigmatize, it's demystified something. And and, you know, people have lived on base next door to a gay couple, for example. And and, you know, they've grown to realise that we're just like anybody else. So it's It's certainly that visibility has has gradually sort of, um, eroded. A lot of the the concerns that people have got. [00:09:30] So are there now specific kind of policies in regard to having, like, same sex relationships like on base, like you're saying that people living together, the the approach that defence has taken, um, is that we have recognised relationships and we do not discriminate between same sex couples and, um, differing sex couples. So if you are in a committed relationship and you can prove that to the satisfaction of the defence force, which essentially means, you know, you've got a joint bank account, joint insurance policies, you and each other's wills, that kind of thing um then you can be, uh, entitled to exactly [00:10:00] the same benefits and entitlements that a a differing sex couple would have. So that includes, um, housing, Um, uh, access to base facilities and support from the wider, um, defence support network. So you joined the New Zealand defence Force in 2006. Did you notice any difference in how you were treated? Um, as a as a gay male between the UK force and in the New Zealand force? It was an interesting, uh, transition in a way, my partner and I, although we were out [00:10:30] to immediate friends and colleagues in the the British military, uh, my partner is a service person as well, um, as well as our neighbours and and and friends and family. We weren't really out out. If that makes sense. And when the opportunity came up to transfer to the New Zealand, uh, military, we essentially made the conscious decision that we were starting a new life in New Zealand. And, um So when we went through the interview process, which included in talking to the spouses and and families and letting them know what they were letting themselves in for by moving to New Zealand [00:11:00] Um, we made the conscious decision to do that as a as an open couple. And when we met with the the team that had come over to the UK to look at potential transfers, we were overwhelmed by the the supportive and the, uh the friendliness of the team that met us. And and that was certainly a key part in our, um, decision to to move to New Zealand. And certainly when I moved to, um uh, New Zealand and my partner followed after we sold the house in the UK. Um, I was very quickly sent overseas, and, um, it was the the support [00:11:30] that that Dave got from the defence force at the time as my my spouse, um, was overwhelming. We were really, really pleased. Did you find that you were discriminated against in any way. Not at all. Um, it's it's it's been a a very easy, um, process for us. And and however I'm I'm I'm conscious also, though, that I'm somewhat longer in the tooth, perhaps than some of my other, um, sort of younger gay of colleagues. And I think the the real advantage that we've got [00:12:00] within the defence force is that we, you know, in addition to organisations such as Overwatch, we also have a A tremendously, uh, robust, uh, harassment and discrimination. Um, a range of policies that that tackle any kind of, uh, abuses or or discriminations and and very well, so, no, I personally have never experienced it. And I'm pretty confident that we have the right checks and balances in place to deal with that and should have advised it for somebody else. So there are not things like, um, just kind of, uh um name [00:12:30] calling or I mean things being referred to as gay or Yeah, I think you know, we one of the challenges is that, you know, we we recruit from society and and, you know, we're essentially a microcosm of that society and so non inclusive language is still an issue that we're working on. Um, and and there are still challenges that we face. It's one of the reasons why we need an organisation like Overwatch. The ultimate end state is not to need to have these, uh, support groups, but so, yes, there are challenges that we face, [00:13:00] but, you know, they're being tackled. And and, uh then certainly the the high levels of the organisation take that kind of thing in incredibly seriously. So when somebody is, you know, using words like gay or fag, what are the ramifications for that? You know, how do you say, Actually, that's not OK, essentially by doing just that. And, um, you know, we one of the core principles of the defence force is courage. And and there is a degree of courage required [00:13:30] to stand up to somebody who is using that language and and tackle them on that language and and explain to them why you know, that that kind of language isn't appropriate and and that, you know, we we have equity training in all of our key, uh, training packages. So as people's careers progress and they go through various training courses. There's an equity element to that as well, and that reemphasizes the the need for inclusive language and and, you know to not want to avoid marginalising members of the defence force because of their orientation. How do, um, transgender members [00:14:00] for them Do you have transgender people? We do. And, um, they enjoy the full support of the, um, service chiefs. Uh, it's it's an interesting one and and certainly, uh, there's a lot of education I think required. Um, and I think that's education required for the gay community as well. I think there's a perception that, um, transgender people and, um, gay and lesbian people are essentially one of the same bunch. And, uh, and and we're not, you know, there there's, [00:14:30] uh, significant differences between gender identity and orientation. And gradually, as we as we understand that and and we as an organisation, we we, um, embrace our our diversity if you like. I think that's it's it's moving forward, but certainly at the moment, Um, our transgender people in defence, um are are well supported. You've mentioned the group over. What can you tell me about that and how that came about Essentially, it came about because we recognised that, Um although we had robust [00:15:00] welfare support mechanisms within defence, the one thing that perhaps we were lacking was anything specifically tailored to the needs and requirements of our, um, GL BT community. Um, there certainly wasn't a great deal of of, uh, available resources in terms of support and many of our our welfare supporters, although incredibly skilled and capable people, um, still perhaps lacked that, um, deeper understanding of the challenges that GL BT people face. Um, there's perhaps a perception that, you know, it's legal now, So [00:15:30] what else is required? Um, so we identified that that realistically, the the value of peer support and networking groups is is immense. Um, it's incredibly empowering for people. And so we set about, uh, myself and a number of colleagues working with our WELL-BEING teams in Wellington and and working towards establishing some sort of an entity. Uh, in 2011, the chief of Defence force gave approval to establish the group, and in early January, 2012, um, Overwatch was formally [00:16:00] born. Um, today, um, we've we've come quite a long way in a relatively short period of time. We've got, um, an online resource that's accessible to anybody within the defence force that provides guidance and support to individuals as well as to commanders and and, uh, uh, managers in positions of responsibility. And that can talk about anything from, um, discussion about coming out. We share our own personal stories, which is empowering, hopefully to to those who are walking [00:16:30] their own path. Um, we give or we make available resources for, um, service people who are parents of gay Children. Perhaps, um, we educate on terminology so that people understand a bit more about what the difference is between intersex and transgender and the, you know, bisexual and, um and and gay and so on. So it's it's proven to be an extremely valuable resource, and, um, it's it's it's great the level of support that we've got, and it's great the feedback that we're getting from around the defence [00:17:00] force and how it's actually helping people. How hard or easy was it to establish? Um, this this kind of group within the force, um, we had a couple of hurdles. Um, when we our our timing wasn't the best we we launched We started working on this at a time when, uh, the defence force is going through a massive restructure in terms of its its whole framework. Um, but we're very lucky to have, um, some key allies, key supporters throughout the, um the NZDF certainly within [00:17:30] our our wider well-being network. Um, Director of defence psychology is very supportive. Our principal defence chaplain is very supportive. Our director of well-being is very supportive. So having those key players supporting what we were trying to achieve was was certainly very helpful. And then ultimately, when we went to, um the very top to the chief of defence force for approval, um, you know, he he sees the the well-being and the the support of his people as his number one priority. And he recognises the Overwatch organisation [00:18:00] as as a key part in that, um and so he's been extremely supportive and, you know, we we're very pleased. Has there been any backlash from, um kind of under the kind of management level, you know, like the the kind of general force. I think there's a a level of understanding about the value of these kind of organisations. Um and some people perhaps don't quite understand, uh, the value that, [00:18:30] um, sort of networking and and peer support brings to an organisation. So, you know, we're a modern organisation like any other. And And if we look at industry best practise, many of the large organisations out there have robust networking support. Um uh, mechanisms and so I, I think, really, the the the value in what Overwatch does is is in part in educate people. Why we need this kind of mechanism. So does Overwatch take more of a kind of a proactive approach in terms of education and [00:19:00] kind of advocacy, or is it more of a kind of a peer support? You know, we will respond to what It's both we, you know, Certainly a very big part of what we do is is primarily being visible. It's, uh, being approachable for anybody who might have a challenge. And we've had instances of people throughout the defence force who have made contact with us and, uh, you know, they've read our our stories online, and they've they've, um, heard, you know, about our our backgrounds and and they've found that to be very supportive, but certainly another key part of [00:19:30] what we do is we work very closely with our well-being organisation and with command, and we feed back into them the you know, the mood across the defence force. You know, what's what kind of stories are we hearing about? Where can we focus our efforts to better support our people? And, um and that's seen as a as a valuable resource, you know, with with subject matter experts, if you like, for for commanders. So what kind of, uh, stories are you hearing? What are the challenges that people are coming to you with I? I think, really. I mean, you know, a lot of it is form [00:20:00] of, you know, young folk, maybe some not so young folk who, um, you know, they they're beginning to identify, you know, to identify as as either gay or lesbian or or whatever. And they I think they really just want to bounce a few ideas off us, in a way so, you know, you know, do I tell my sergeant first, do I tell my family first or do I You know who do I how? How you know? And And we will never tell anybody this is what you should do, but we can certainly give them the, you know, the, um, our own experience and and offer them support [00:20:30] through that process. So, um and and that from them is very valuable. But I think certainly I think one of the the really telling examples is we had a a young lad in um, the Navy who has only recently come out to his family and friends and and he's actually put his hand up to, um March in the parade today, which is pretty courageous in its own in itself. I think what was really telling was the fact that he then came back to us and said, I've actually 16 of my work. Colleagues have all sort of, you know, put their hand up and they want to march with me in in in support, and I think that it's it's [00:21:00] sharing those kind of positive stories with other people, and and that's what I think is really valid about what we do. It's it's it's giving visibility, and it's letting people know that they're not alone, that they're not the only gay in the village. If it makes sense, what about the difference between somebody coming into the force. Um, that's openly gay or out transgender lesbian et cetera. Coming into the force as a out person, as opposed to somebody coming out while they're actually in the force. I think it's an interesting one. We're certainly, um, beginning to, uh, beginning to see [00:21:30] now more openly gay or openly out people. Um, look to the defence as a as a a career option and, uh, and we've got people going through recruit training now who have joined up as as openly gay. I think it's, um I think it's it's It's a positive reflection of the way that the defence forces is presenting itself to, you know, the wider community. Now I think we're breaking down some of those outdated stereotypes that we're not a gay friendly organisation that we're, [00:22:00] you know, outdated and and somewhat stuck in the Dark ages. You know, we're a modern, forward thinking organisation, and and realistically, if you've got the right skills, if you've got the right talents, then you know and a career in defence is something you're interested in. Then we want to talk to you. How did the name Overwatch come about? um, essentially, it's It's, uh, the The term Overwatch is a military tactic which, naturally, sort of we like anyway, um, but it represents the where essentially, you have one military unit providing support to another [00:22:30] unit, thus allowing that unit to perform, um, unheeded or, um challenged, if you like. So from a you know, transferring that on to us of a personal level, that's essentially what we do. You know, we provide support to people. We give them an outlet for some of the the sort of stress and anxiety that they might be feeling that's allowing them to be the very best that they can do and to serve New Zealand to the full. Is the group aligned with any either national body or international body of economic support groups? Um, we work, um, or we have, [00:23:00] uh, certainly good working relationships with, um, similar groups around the world. Uh, there is an organisation in Australia called Deli. The Defence. Um, gay and Lesbian Information Service. Uh, we, um they're certainly our closest. Uh uh, partner, if you like, or, um ally, um, similarly, in America, there is the out of, uh, service legal defence network. SLDN um and, uh, they sit outside of the US Department of Defence. But they provide support and advocacy to people who are out [00:23:30] in the wake of the repeal of don't ask, don't tell. And similarly, in the UK, we have, uh, proud to serve, which is another, uh, support agency which works outside of the UK Ministry of Defence, but very closely with the UK Ministry of Defence. And again, they provide peer support, network advice, advocacy, support, that kind of thing. What is the difference between working within the defence force and working as a as an organisation outside? Well, I think when we were establishing, um, Overwatch, we we made the conscious decision that we wanted [00:24:00] to be an entity inside defence. I think it it gives the group, um, a degree of credibility in terms of its authenticity and and, uh, this the level of support we can provide our people. But I think it also represents the degree of support from command for the well-being of all of our people. And the fact that, um, you know, we're seen as a as much as a of a a valuable resource in terms of of well-being and support as any other NZDF entity. So [00:24:30] it's it's it's been a really positive process. And I think, you know, by being a formal mechanism within defence, we were able to to reach more people and to support more people. You mentioned just earlier that today is the pride parade in Auckland, and I'm wondering, how did the group get involved with the parade? Um crikey. Uh, the parade organisers, um, essentially made contact with us. Um, there have been some other some media [00:25:00] articles about Overwatch being launched. Um, certainly at the beginning of 2012, and they approached us and asked if we could, so we weren't sure at the time. So we spoke to the chief of defence Force and said, Look, you know, these are some events that we'd like to, um, be involved in, Um big gay out was one out in the square was another, uh, and ultimately, uh, the Auckland Pride parade. Um, and the response that we got from the chief of Defence Force that he was completely supportive. And, um, once we had that sign off, [00:25:30] then we were free to start the planning and and and get things put in place. It's quite significant today because you're also able to march in uniform, where for a lot of international counterparts they that that they're not allowed to do that, are they? That's right. Um, it's it is big, and I think that again it reflects the the support that we have, Um, as, um, out, uh or, you know, GL BT, um, service people and civilians within defence, you know, from the very top. And it it's It's an opportunity, [00:26:00] I think, for, you know, the senior levels of of the defence force to to express their support for what we're doing. And the Chief defence force, you know, recognises that, you know, supporting his people is is vitally important to, you know, supporting the defence force. And, um, that means supporting all of your people and and the backing that we've got and and that includes authority to wear uniform at events such as this is is very valuable. And it's great how many people are marching. Um, can't put my fingers on the exact numbers. Um, we've got a mix of people in uniform [00:26:30] as well as natural. Our civilian staff, uh, as well. We've also got, um, partners and spouses of of service People are marching alongside us as well and key supporters from the defence force. So we've got a number of people who have who aren't, uh, GL BT. But, um, from the defence force who support equity and support the Overwatch organisation. So I think in total, um, around 50 ish, Possibly. But, um, yeah, we'll see when I get to Arch Hill [00:27:00] and, uh, see how many people are there, but, uh, certainly a significant enough, um uh, number to to draw some attention. Why do you think it's important to be in a parade like this? I think a number of reasons, I think, firstly, it's it's it's an opportunity to demonstrate the defence really is a modern military. You know that we we value all of our people that, um we recognise that diversity is one of our key strengths. And it's not a weakness. I mean, today we recognise [00:27:30] as one of one of the most professional militaries in the world and in part that is because of our inclusive culture, as opposed to in spite of it. Um but I think also it sends an extremely positive message to those men and women you know who, like many outside in mainstream society, are perhaps struggling with their identity. And it clearly hopefully shows that, you know, you can be whoever you want to be, and you can enjoy a full and rewarding career in the service. Um, and if you need support, um, that support is available [00:28:00] to you, and it's endorsed by the absolute, very top of the organisation. Did you ever think that you'd be marching in a pride parade? No. Um, I never thought I'd be chairman of this group. Uh, it's It's been an interesting journey, and I think it's it's, um it it's it's great to see how far we've come and I, I think it. It's, um I think it's something I've always kind of thought it would be great to to see happen. Um, but I think in terms of, um, my [00:28:30] own personal aspirations, Yeah, it's it's been it's been quite interesting. So, um, I mean, the defence force has always been a well, certainly, um, since I've been serving in New Zealand, the defence forces has been very supportive of me and it's been very supportive of my my GL BT, um, friends and colleagues. But, um, I think it's it's I think it's great. I think it, you know, like like I said, it sends a really positive message, both outwardly, to the wider community, um, but inwardly to, um, to our own people as well. So [00:29:00] what do you think the biggest challenges are facing rainbow people now in the force? I think one of the biggest challenges that, um, we face is it's educating people and it's educating ourselves. Um, you know, the I think there's a perception out there that the the Rainbow Community is this one blob of identical people, and we're all extremely different. We have extremely different needs. Um, [00:29:30] transgender people are not the same as they're not ultra gay, gay people that have kind of gone through and out the other side. You know, they you know, we all have different needs, and we need to understand what those needs are. So I think for the defence force, one of our our challenges on an organisational level is educating our people and and growing that level of understanding and I. I think once that knowledge gets out there, life will become easier. People will understand more command will be easier to deliver. But I think really, on a on an individual [00:30:00] level, it's It's much the same as, as perhaps, you know, it is for a lot of people, you know, each each individual person's journey is very different. And and it's very easy for me to sit here. You know, an openly gay man with, you know, long term partner, you know, quite nicely. Settled to to say Well, you know, the legislation is in place. Society supports gay people. What more do we need? But there are still people out there, as you know, in the defence force as well as outside in in, you know, the mainstream society who are still struggling with their identity. They're facing a lot of, um, [00:30:30] anxiety and stress. And I think you know, the defence force has a responsibility to do what it can, um, to support those people to relieve that anxiety and and and remove those those stresses from them. And that's that's good for the individual. But it's also good for the defence force because you know what we need are focused, professional, um, soldiers, sailors and airmen who are, you know, working on the the the tasking hand, which is the defence of New Zealand. And they can do that so much better if they're not stressing about these other issues that are going on in their private [00:31:00] life.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags