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This programme was recorded as part of a Winston Churchill Memorial Fellowship in June 2008. My name is Noah Miller, and I'm the director of Out Loud Radio in San Francisco, California and we are in San Francisco, California at cafe floor in the I know there's an accent on some of the signs that make it sound like Cafe Flo, but everybody here says Cafe Floor in San Francisco in the Castro District and the history [00:00:30] the history of out loud. Well, I started out loud radio about six years ago, in 2002, and, um, it was a time when I was trying to get into producing radio myself. And also when I was trying to connect with other folks in the gay community here because I had just come back from college and was sort of lonely and wanting to connect. So, uh, I, um, was volunteering with various community [00:01:00] organisations, and one of them was, um, the school that I had gone to when I was, uh, 11 or 12. Um, the Middle School in Berkeley, which has 6/7 and eighth graders, and I discovered that they had formed a Gay Straight Alliance Club A. So they were doing gay rights activism at the ages of 11 and 12 and 13. And this just completely blew my mind. And I thought that, Well, [00:01:30] you know, this is unique enough that maybe I could make a documentary about it. So I started visiting the school with my equipment and recording their meetings and their letter writing campaigns and their discussions about all the issues of the day. I can't remember exactly what it was at the moment, but, um, at some point, I just, um, began going [00:02:00] every week and became sort of like a regular there. And, um, I found myself one day needing to leave a bit early and decided to just hand my equipment over to, um, one of the kids, uh, to do some recording for me and give me. They gave them very minimal instructions about how to use it. And when I came back later, they had completely taken it and run with it [00:02:30] and had recorded their friends, did some interviews and gotten some material silly stuff, but also some really wonderful stuff that I never would have gotten from my more adult perspective. I mean, I was 23 at the time, but these are 11 year olds and an 11 year old talking to an 11 year old is much different from a 23 year old talking to an 11 year old. And, uh, that really helped spark the idea of [00:03:00] doing a queer Youth radio programme or, um, production, uh, group or some sort of thing. I got a small grant, I think $1000 and bought a little bit more equipment and, uh, made some flyers. Um, just up the street from here is a, uh, is the Lavender Youth Recreation and Information Centre A which is for young [00:03:30] LGBTQ to folks. And, um, we had our first meeting there in 2002. Um, I, uh, just, uh, five people who, uh, were intrigued by the idea of, uh, producing radio. And it's it's grown since then into something more formal, more oriented toward education. I guess six years later I'm less [00:04:00] able to claim that I'm a youth myself. I mean, along with the 16 year olds. But so now I'm more of a teacher, and, um, they really are the ones who are doing the work. And, uh, it's it's become something that it started out as something that I just was doing for fun and for, uh because I, I don't know, it was it was a lot for me. And [00:04:30] now it seems to be important to a lot of other folks, too. When you first started, did you have any, um, form of distribution or output for the material? No, Uh, it was all done in the spirit of, uh, Well, if we make something good, we'll we'll get it in there somehow. We'll get it out there somehow. A At about six or eight months after we started, Um, a A [00:05:00] woman came into one of our meetings who we had never seen before. And, um, said she was from, um, local pirate radio station. And, uh, uh, San Francisco Liberation Radio would be the perfect place for us to, uh, have a show. They were looking for, uh, community members to to participate. So, um, for about a year, we did have a weekly live show on San Francisco Liberation radio, and it was exhausting. [00:05:30] And I, uh, I, I don't think we're ready to go back to that. Even years later. I don't think we have. I mean, that was It's just such a completely different thing to produce prerecorded segments and live radio just completely different. Um, what we do now is we're We work for at least three months with each young person to produce a five minute piece, and, you know, and that's barely [00:06:00] enough. Um, so, uh, doing an hour long show or two hour? I can't remember. Two hours, maybe every week was crazy, but fun too. And, uh, So no, we didn't have any, um, distribution at the beginning. Uh, I guess I knew a couple of folks at National Public Radio and managed to get a little bit of our stuff on the air early on and, uh, made some connections with the local public [00:06:30] radio stations here. And that's really how we we got started. Can you talk a wee bit about, um what the response from, you know, the public radio stations and N PR was if you're looking, if your question really is about the content, um then there. I've never had any, um, negative reaction to the idea of what we're we're talking about. [00:07:00] Um, except when it you know, if it gets into sex at all, then you know there's a little bit of prudishness that comes up or concern about the, uh, FCC or I don't know, but, um, but, you know, in general, talking about, uh, gay youth issues is not it's not taboo. Um, the greater challenge is [00:07:30] just that there is a very limited amount of airspace for public radio. So we're competing with a lot of other people, and we're competing with with professionals. And so, you know, I'm I'm working with, uh, young folks who, um this is their first time producing something, and, uh, we try to help them make it as good as possible. Um, but there's still [00:08:00] sometimes some resistance to or, I don't know, just It's just a fact of life that we're competing with with folks who are really good at, um, serving. They know exactly what the system wants in terms of style and form. And I guess, um, my thought was I was just wondering, how receptive are those different stations to, uh, an independent body [00:08:30] contributing material. I think independent producers in general, um, have, um, are always struggling to get their work on, and once, uh, they've got their foot in the door. They are, really they they cling to that because, um, you know you once you've got a line in, uh, I think the especially, uh, N, PR, um, and and other national shows [00:09:00] and even at the local level, you know, um, they tend to always go back to the folks that they know. And, um So, um, there are There are a few independent producers who, uh, are almost de facto a part of the system now. And because their names are knownn, they're trusted. And if you're not in that small group, then, [00:09:30] uh, you do have a hard time getting heard or just, you know, above the fray. Um, it's tough. And I know that, you know, you spoke with folks at Youth Radio in Oakland, and that's one of the real successes that they've had is they've opened this channel, this direct channel to some of the major outlets, and, uh so they have a much easier time getting distributed. [00:10:00] I feel like that. We could be getting a lot more distribution if we just had a little more time to put into it. Uh, energy. Um, it's mostly a matter of building those relationships and understanding how to structure our our, um content. So that, uh, you know, it works within the formats that exist out there. Um, and, uh, there's [00:10:30] a We've had a lot of, uh, success. Easy, easy success with, um, the public radio exchange, which is an online marketplace for mostly, um, redistribution of, um existing, uh, content audio content. Um, so not usually it's not usually used by, uh, producers to get their stuff out there for the first time, But that's how we've been using. I mean, we've been maybe [00:11:00] broadcasting some of our stuff once on a local station and then putting it up on the public radio exchange. And, hey, it's it's in Alaska. It's in Nebraska. It's in Tennessee, and all we had to do was post it on this website, and we even get a little bit, you know, a few dollars for the licence. So for you in the programme is the main aim about the creation of the content rather than the distribution. Or is it about having an audience? Well, [00:11:30] um, the mission of the organisation is to both of those things. I mean, we really want to have an impact on the youth that we work with, and we want to have an impact on the people who the people out in the world who, uh, should be hearing from the youth that we work with. And, um, I think just the way it works out is that, uh first you focus on the youth [00:12:00] that you're working with. I mean, because that's they're in front of you. And that's that's the most obviously important thing is that we the you know, these teenagers come and they you know, you you see that you are making such a difference in their lives. Um and so, um, I think that even the distribution and the audience is very important, but it it comes second just practically in the in the work that we do. And so I [00:12:30] would love to have again more energy and more staff and and folks to devote to that so that we can carry out that part of our mission because I think it's equally important. But just in terms of how small we are, it's We focus on the youth first. Do you have any kind of Do you yourself have any kind of mentoring in terms of, uh, are you Are you modelling yourself on any other organisation or are you pretty much just finding your own way? Oh, I have a lot of mentors or I, [00:13:00] um, am stealing and copying from a lot of folks. Just people who I've worked with mostly nothing formal I. I haven't I haven't observed any organisations that are exactly like the one that I'm trying to build, But there are parts of what I'm trying to do that I'm taking from a lot of other people. There is, um there are a lot of different youth radio organisations in the country [00:13:30] and luckily, um, we have had a chance to come together at various conferences and meet each other. Um, it's really wonderful for the young folks and it's also really great for people like me who are trying to lead the programmes to see how other people are doing those. Um So, um, some of those folks who have been really helpful radio rookies in New York, um, have had some long conversations [00:14:00] with the folks there and they've I don't know, maybe it's mostly moral support, which is as important as anything else. The blunt youth radio project in Maine. Uh, there are a whole lot of of of projects out there, and I've I've I've gotten moral support from a lot of them just from meeting them And, um, and learned things about fundraising, for example. And, um, ethical questions [00:14:30] about, you know, uh, with, uh, an organisation that does have these two things that we focus on, uh, the youth development and the audience impact. How do we create a, uh, a compelling and, uh, media product that has a large impact and allowed the youth to completely own it and [00:15:00] produce it themselves? Um, I think that's, you know, one of the central questions of working in youth media. And so being able to talk to other folks about how they address that and being able to see a spectrum of different approaches to that is really helpful. And, you know, seeing where do I feel comfortable? Uh, working into that, Um, but other mentors, um I, uh, during the other half of my life I I work [00:15:30] with, um a, uh, an organisation called Sound Vision Productions, which, uh, makes uh, science documentaries, Um, and, uh puts them on national public radio and makes websites and so forth. And I've just learned a lot from about, uh uh, the financial side of things. And because it's a it's another small organisation, a staff of may, maybe five. [00:16:00] and, uh, so I've been involved in almost every part of it, which is really lucky for me. Um uh, So I've learned about financial, um, management somewhat and, uh, fundraising and, um, project management And, uh, and about the public radio system, which you know is it's its own little world, and you just have to learn how it works. [00:16:30] Um, that's the same with, um, another, uh, producer that I interned with right out of college. Um, Davia Nelson of the the Kitchen Sisters who's one of those folks who really has established herself as kind of part of the system. You know, anything that she does has a much larger chance of being actually on the air. So have been being able to observe her and see how she works and who she knows and who she talks to when [00:17:00] she needs to has a, you know, a particular need that's all. Been very helpful. Um, And then, um, the, uh, Lyric Lavender Youth Recreation Information Centre, which is where we held our first meeting. And also which has been our fiscal sponsor, which doesn't mean that they pay us, but it means that they kind of lend us their nonprofit status so that we can get grants. They've been wonderful. Uh, especially [00:17:30] in the last couple of years, the the executive director. There has really been a model of how to me. How do you be a director of a small organisation and again, the fundraising. I mean, I come back to fundraising a lot because that's the main major concern. Um, so I've been I've just tried to take support from wherever I could pretty much and have been lucky enough to find a lot of people who could give me [00:18:00] advice. Um, and as far as the youth education portion of it, I don't know how I just make that up. Yeah, just, um, touching on fundraising. What are the what are the key areas that funders like? What are the kind of key words that you drop in? Well, I've been told again and again that we really have the perfect trifecta of working with youth and working in media and, uh, working with query issues. [00:18:30] I mean, especially, I mean, in the Bay Area. There are a lot of, uh, individual, uh, individuals who are interested in funding all of those things. And so we've built up our base of community supporters, and, um, in general, there are, you know, there are foundations out there who are interested in those things, Um, especially youth and queer issues. So, um, [00:19:00] you know, depending on who if we're applying for a grant, Uh, depending on who they are and what their interests are, um, I'll either emphasise the youth development kind of health, uh, aspects of what we're doing, um, are the effective citizenship aspect. You know, we're really creating informed young people, potential leaders or just, [00:19:30] you know, effective citizens. And, uh or we emphasise, you know, the, um, the impact that we're having on our audience just so far. Hard to measure. But we can play it up anyway. You know, give me a paragraph, and I can do it. Are the grants and funds, Uh, are they, uh, did you have to apply on an annual basis or are they a bit more long term [00:20:00] and sustainable? Uh, so far, all of the grants that we've gotten have been, uh, one year grants, although I've stretched them out. Um, I just recently started getting some more substantial, uh, grant funding, which, with the possibility of, um, repeat funding in future years. So and we'll see where that goes. [00:20:30] If you were to very broadly break out your time during the week, how much would it be devoted to, like, kind of fundraising and how much to teaching and how much to kind of development? Uh, averaged over a year because, well, about half of the year, we're actually working directly with youth intensively, and, uh, the other half, we're recovering. So, um, uh, I mean, just because we're small and that's and that's why I [00:21:00] we I found that we just can't be doing the programme all of the time and sustain the organisation. So, um, the times that we are working with the youth, I would say we're spending 80% of our time just doing that, just working with the youth, the education and and production and, uh, 20% of the time on a longer term things whether that's fundraising or, [00:21:30] uh, we've been, you know, in the process of redesigning our website or these longer term things, Um, And during the time the off season, we're still working with the youth a little bit, Uh, maybe 10%. Just taking a couple of steps back. You were talking about the the the whole kind of, um, where you place the organisation in terms of ethics and youth development and ownership and all that kind of stuff. What was your answer to the [00:22:00] The question that you kind of posed? Well, um, I think it bothers me less. Now, Um, I feel like we found a place that I'm comfortable with, which is that the youth do they produce their own work? They choose, um, their subject. They choose how to go about it. Um, but we strongly [00:22:30] encourage them in certain directions. I mean, because we've just been we've been doing this for longer than them, and so we can see that certain things are gonna work out and certain things aren't, and we can We can say to them that, um you know, uh, I think that the general population might be curious about this particular question that you're not asking because it's so obvious to you Or, um, you know, maybe this particular thing is really [00:23:00] interesting to you, but let's just let's, uh, cut it down a little bit because I think it's something that a lot of people have heard about already. So we do give a lot of guidance, but ultimately it's their choice whether they want to take our suggestions or not. And so, um, you know, there are pieces that, uh, just aren't gonna be on, uh, national radio or even on a local station. Maybe we'll put them up on our website. But, um, [00:23:30] you know, just because they don't particularly conform to or they don't I don't know. They don't have exactly what it takes to to be taken to that white audience, but that's OK. Um, and, uh, I feel OK about, uh, having a lot of input into into the work because I feel like it's part of our mission. And I don't feel like I'm doing [00:24:00] it dishonestly feel like we are very honest about, you know, about these are suggestions, Um, and this is why we're suggesting that you've considered, uh, you know, this element in your piece or this direction? Uh, just talking about the the practicalities. Uh, you mentioned that, uh, you You work with someone for three months, and they produce a piece at the end of it. Can you just take me through? If I was, um, a youth coming into [00:24:30] your programme, what could I expect? You? You could expect a lot of work, and they never expect it to be as much work as it is. Um uh, the they start out, um, we the first couple of meetings. We, um, try to introduce them to the idea of what radio is because most of them have no idea. And don't I mean, don't listen to public [00:25:00] radio, any sort of feature or documentary? Kind of. I mean, it's totally foreign to them. Um, although that's there's a kind of a class difference there. The with. It's interesting that the the last few folks that we've been working with, um uh, come from, uh uh, I don't know. Better educated, maybe more economically higher class. And so they all a lot of them had listened to [00:25:30] public radio a lot and knew what they were doing. Um, So, uh, we give them a lot of listening assignments to orient themselves a little bit, and we try to encourage them to think about you know, what are things that were really cool about this, that you would like to copy, you know, techniques that you'd like to copy, and it takes. I mean, even after the three months, a lot of them haven't quite separated out content [00:26:00] and style or content and form. You know, I, I don't know. At 14 years old, some of them have a grasp of that. Some of them don't really, But, um, that's why we're there to help. So, um, once they get oriented after the first couple of weeks, they we start brainstorming about what subjects they would like to explore or try to find, uh, the stories in their own lives that, um, they want to [00:26:30] talk about or we think are fascinating. And often we have to really convince them that something that they just mentioned offhand is incredibly fascinating. Um, because they do live in their a separate world from the world that most, uh, that I and most public radio audience lives in from there. It just, [00:27:00] uh we work with them on a a production plan with, uh, Who are they gonna interview? What kind of information are they gonna get? What kind of sounds are they gonna get? Um, do they have kind of an overall idea of what the form of their piece will be? You know, they they're gonna have five minutes. Uh, and they usually go over a little bit, but in the last little crunch, But, um, it's, uh it's it's it's a matter. [00:27:30] It's kind of an iterative process after that of, um, bringing in what the what? They've gathered in the last week. And, um, sometimes with one of us or one of our volunteer instructors. I mean, it's, uh, me and assistant director and then, um to or so other volunteers who come in and help kind of be mentors Editors, Uh, you know, just help them move forward. [00:28:00] Uh, actually, a lot of it is just, um calling them up every day or texting them and saying, Did you do that interview that you said you were going to do? Um oh, that's a lot of the work. Uh, and uh, some of the editing happens kind of in a collective group way too. And you can play back some tape and or, uh, read a script or aloud and, uh, get the other teams feedback [00:28:30] to, um and it always ends up. I mean, most of the production ends up happening in the last week. It's just always how it works because they finally understand that. Oh, really? We have to do something. But what helps is that, um, we have a, uh, a premier and graduation ceremony at the end. Um, so they're presenting their work to all of their, [00:29:00] uh, their friends and whoever they like to invite, often family members. I mean, um, some of the young folks we work with, uh aren't particularly out or to their families, but a lot of them are. I mean, they're doing a media project that's talking about, uh, GL BT issues. Um, so most of them [00:29:30] are fairly comfortable with. And we also have, um, a number of allies, a number of straight youth who are participating, too, And, uh so anyway, that at the at the premiere, they present their work, and they have to get it in some sort of shape for that. So how many go through the course at any one time? Only about five, or [00:30:00] or so, Um, that's I mean, we've tried doing more, and with the size of our staff and the kind of intensity of the process, you find that we need to keep it small. And, um, we could, uh I think there there's probably demand for somewhat more. Um, if we had the staff to do it, [00:30:30] um, but it's been working out fine. And do they work as individuals, or are they, uh, working as groups? Well, like you said that they do, they're working on individual projects, but they have some group feedback into each other's work. And something that has started happening more is that I really like, is that they've, for example, one of them, uh, needed to do an interview, uh, with, [00:31:00] uh, a a woman who lived in San Jose, which is about what is it 50 miles south of here? Not particularly easy to get to on public transit. But one of our youth was actually coming from there every weekend to participate, and so they did a double ender. He acted as the stringer and went out and, uh, handled the microphone while she interviewed the woman over the [00:31:30] phone. And, um so they have started to kind of help each other out in that way, which I think is cool and also gives them some idea of what you know, the professional skills that they're developing. They can. They can. That's a marketable skill that they're getting. So what kind of changes do you see over the three month period for the the people that go through? Well, that's my favourite part. Uh, I see, um, [00:32:00] a lot of people coming in somewhat shy or just not particularly confident and leaving with a much greater degree of of of confidence and being a bit more outgoing. Um, part of it, I'm sure I'm just I mean, things change so fast when you're a teenager that I'm sure [00:32:30] part of it is I'm just observing the growth that they're going through. But that's I'm you know, it's wonderful to take part in that and to encourage them in that direction. And, you know, just the fact that we say, Yes, you can talk to the mayor or you can talk to this famous singer or whatever. You know, that really gives them a lot of because they said no. No, of course they won't answer my call. But then we said, OK, why? Well, have you tried calling them yet? And, uh, you know, then they [00:33:00] just are so excited when they do get the call back, and then they're terrified to go in and do the interview, and then they come back and they said that was so easy. And they and you know, that really changes things for them. It changes their outlook on what? What's possible to do. So I love seeing that that change. Um, I, I see. Also, uh, a change in how they perceive [00:33:30] this is more subtle. But, uh, how they perceive their own stories or lives Because, uh, as I was saying, often we have to point out to them that, um, some aspect of their life or things that they've mentioned, um is kind of amazing or unusual. Or, you know, people would love to hear about, uh [00:34:00] and they because they're living it. They don't really realise that. So I think it changes them in some ways to have that pointed out. And over the six years has it changed? Duke? Um, well, yes, I it has, Uh, because when I started the project, um, it was all sort of a lark. And, [00:34:30] um, at a certain point about two years ago, I heard from, um it was just in ca casual conversation. I. I was talking to a couple of my young folks who were applying to colleges about how their applications were going, and they said, Oh, the I hate these essay questions. I said, What are the essay questions about? They said, Oh, well, what was the one of the questions was what is the most important thing in [00:35:00] your life? And he said, Well, what are you writing about? And they said, Oh, I'm writing about it out loud And you know, so I that in fact kind of scared me because I thought, Oh, my God, I have this responsibility. If this is the, you know, really that important to them, then it can't just be totally, you know, my play thing. It's something. It's for real. So it's changed me in that way. Uh, [00:35:30] it's given me a lot more understanding of, um, the queer community. It's given me an education in how to just get things done. It's exhausted me, but it's but it's absolutely worth it. You started out by asking about, um, how some something that's small and that's being spearheaded by one person can, uh, get [00:36:00] to a point of sustainability and just not fall apart after a couple of years when that one person moves on, Uh, I, I think that we're coming to a point where that, you know, may be tested with my project. Um, I think there are some universal things that can be said about that probably that would apply in the United States and New Zealand. Um, and that does have to do with human nature and making sure that you have the support that you need and that you don't [00:36:30] burn yourself out. I mean, one of the things that I've been learning or trying to learn just recently is that, um there are people around me who really would be willing to shoulder some of this burden. Um, and I don't have to do it all myself. I can distribute it. Um, especially I. I guess it. But also that it takes time just for something to take root. [00:37:00] And, um, you know, maybe it it It's a few years before people are willing to to to to jump in because they see that you know, this this thing has established itself. It's real. It's it's not going away. It's not just a flash in the pan, Um, but I think there are also maybe some things that are less universal. I think you know, a lot of what I've learned about in the last six years has [00:37:30] to do with the intricacies of the United States media system and the and funding systems here. And I'm not sure if they exactly apply. I mean fundraising in San Francisco, you know, from all the people that you've seen over Gay Pride Weekend, uh, probably is different from fundraising in Wellington, where things are much smaller. I mean, I think some things may be much easier to do in [00:38:00] a community that's more tight knit, and some things may be harder. Uh, you know, good luck to anybody who's who's trying to start a small project and make it sustainable, and it's very hard. But, um, the key ingredient is is, uh, really believing in it and and finding other people who believe in it with you.
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