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I have with me Pat Rosier. Hi, Pat. Hi. Pat and I are partners. And rather than having a formal interview either way, we decided it was best just to have a conversation between us about being being older lesbians and, uh, the issues that arise for us, if any, and both in being older and whether it's any different being lesbian and so on. That's the sort of things that we're talking about and I've been talking about with others you've been hearing about [00:00:30] these interviews. The thing that stands out for me that applies to both you and I is that we have very little family. Most of the people you've talked to have Children, and I have a son, sure, but you have no Children, and we both have very little family. I don't have grandchildren. Um, and I think that it's quite clear among our friends that the people who have [00:01:00] Children and grandchildren have quite a lot to do with them are quite involved with them on the whole, um, and that makes a difference, I think, to I don't know how they are in the world in their seventies or whatever sort of age they are. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I mean, it's, um it isn't necessarily a reflection of being lesbian because these are les. I mean, both our straight friends and our lesbians. This is friends. It's true [00:01:30] that most of them have, uh, have Children and grandchildren. We have a few that that don't apart from ourselves, but not many. I have no blood relatives at all. And when we're calling family, of course, we're talking about blood family. I have no blood family at all in New Zealand. Uh, I have a few overseas, but not very much. And don't have a hell of a lot to do with them either. Just a little. And, um And you have you got a niece? But I've got a son and a niece that I have regular contact with in New Zealand. Yeah, but neither of whom have Children, which [00:02:00] is kind of interesting. So that's Major. And, um, I have one brother overseas, but, uh, you know, it's not day to day stuff, and, um, you don't have any siblings either, So it's also that way as well, and it does make life interesting. It essentially means that our friends of whom our lesbian friends are a very, very important component for me. Overwhelmingly, really, Um, are very important to us. Yes, it's the same for me. I have one or two quite close women friends who aren't lesbian. [00:02:30] But the bulk of my kind of social group is lesbians of give a similar age to myself or maybe a decade or two younger. But that's that's what most of my contacts, where most of my connections and contacts are. And certainly I notice all this more as I get older. It's not a function of of, um, getting older in a sense that I haven't had. I haven't had my relations [00:03:00] in New Zealand ever. But as I get older and as I've lost a lot of my friends I've had, I've had a lot of bad luck. I heard more than I have actually had close friends die. I had two ex die and several of cancer and several other close friends as well, and so I suddenly start to notice that the, uh, the networks are thinning out of of the really intimate people. I've got hundreds of acquaintances that the close friends that it's thinning out and we'll probably thin out more. [00:03:30] And that's where you notice that you haven't got family. And while all the people I talked to say they don't want to expect too much of their Children, it wouldn't be right for them. It wouldn't be right for the kids. They don't That's not what they want, but nevertheless they're there, and they're important to them. They don't want to look after them in inverted commas, but, uh, but it is a kind of an essential, ongoing connection of some kind of basic sorts. The family thing, I think. And I think like you, I was pretty much oblivious to it until more recent years [00:04:00] or oblivious to the lack of it. Now, I don't want to have any sense that for me at least, that I'm moaning about this at all. I mean, it's it's interesting observation and it, um, and it also it makes you just simply think about what will happen as you get older because, uh, at the moment we're, uh, 69 and 70 we're, well, I'm we're both reasonably healthy. You've got a few more things wrong with you than me. [00:04:30] But neither of us is in his hand, has disability. That stops us doing a lot. I mean physical things. That one does a little differently less than we used to be. So we're very healthy, really. Basically, at the moment can't worry about mild diabetes. You your heart thing and your, um the the heart thing is completely out of control, and I hardly ever think about it. The knee is a nuisance. It's not life threatening or anything like that. It's [00:05:00] just a bloody nuisance. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I've always been rather more sporty and active than you, and I've got things That's probably a help me keep me going. But on the other hand, now that I have get troubles with ankles and backs and elbows and and so on, I I'm gonna have to think about that. And I can't do quite as much as I used to in in walking and so on. But that's still all there, but they do regular exercise now. In a way, I never did it any earlier part of my [00:05:30] life, which is my half hour day on the, um I never, ever, until the last three or four years when I started doing the had any kind of regular exercise that I made a point of doing most days, I used to walk, sure, but it was incidental to what else I was doing. And I still do some of that, but not as much because of my knee. And now you feel the need of of exercise this [00:06:00] up? Yeah, absolutely. And it was the, um, diagnosis of marginal diabetes, like just knocking into the diabetes side of things that made me decide that I had to do some regular exercise, and I've done it ever since, and it probably has more benefits than the diabetes, but that certainly has never gotten any worse. And I mean again, that's another function of our age, isn't it, that we talk about health things a lot more. We talk about them and we're conscious of them. We know [00:06:30] that in order to keep well, um, we need to be conscious of our of our health, both in terms of our eating and and in terms of our exercise. I probably still eat a little too much of the wicked things, but I also eat a lot of good things and you're, I think even better about it than me. And I've taken off steadily and care and and easily wait, because I know you don't like being terribly thingy about it or conscious about it, but yeah, I think we're both reasonably good. And you better than me about [00:07:00] how we behave about about food. Food. Yeah, and I'm pretty good about exercise, and I still walk, um, get out in the bush and walk and do regular walking with the dog plus, um, swimming and, um, and I to do the exercise. And I have bought myself a bike and do a little bit. Not much of biking around as well. So trying to keep fit that way. Although I never thought I'd give up ball game sports, but that happened quite a while ago now. But thinking, trying to think like from a specifically [00:07:30] lesbian point of view, um, I guess that sort of who's gonna look after us thing is, you know, if we ever get non encompass or something is an issue is something we should probably deal with more than we have. We keep talking about redoing our wills, and you know that sort of thing which we haven't done since we first got together. And, um well, uh, redoing our wills doesn't help with who looks after us. It just tend to set [00:08:00] up executives and those kind of things, which I mean, we're not too too bad compared with some. We've certainly, um, made sure that each other is is looked after, either in break up or death. We've done that properly, but our worlds do need updating. But on the more what will happen to us if we become, um, non compost mentalist in some way, physically or mentally, we're unable to cope. That is a real problem. I mean, it's a real problem for lots of people I interviewed Mark from Lesbian Elders Village. I mean, uh, the [00:08:30] business of creating a specifically lesbian community is one with gradations of care. If you're lucky, is one sort of proposal that people have made. Although virtually nothing's actually happened yet in New Zealand as a bit elsewhere for us, we'd rather stay where we are, if we possibly can. We've got a beautiful beach house, and we'd like to be able to stay here as long as we can, and I have I find that the idea of any kind of group situation kind of anathema. I can't bear to think about it now. The [00:09:00] reality might be, Yeah, the reality might be that that's what I end up having to do. You can't predict these things, but the idea of living in a rest home, lesbian or not, or any kind of group situation just makes my skin curl for me. Personally, I know it works for a lot of people, and so my thinking tends to be in terms of, um, as you get more decrepit, then you buy in more [00:09:30] help. Now, um, that's predicated kind of on the fact that you've got a lot more money than I have. I'm not in a position to buy in very much help, but you are. So you know I'm aware of that. But you know, as you become able to do this yourself, that that seems to be to be one way, and I think in terms of lesbians or any other people actually growing older. The thing is, there isn't a solution. There isn't a [00:10:00] way to deal with. There's a whole raft of them, and they vary with with mental and physical health are really relevant. Um, as long as you're in a fit state to kind of be in control of your own affairs, even if you have physical problems, you know, that's a different situation from any form of dementia. That means you can't be in control of your own affairs. Um, so I guess what I'm saying is I want to stay in control, [00:10:30] really? And we we both I think feel like that. And we'd like to both stay in this house if we possibly can. And one of the nice things is, um, we're in a small village and there are a lot of these bits here already, and a lot of our friends, and we talk only semi jokingly about the fact that I mean, it's it's reasonably on the flat as long as one's capable of walking, one can do quite a lot, uh, if not able to drive or bike or whatever anymore. And that may be groups of us. Even we could, um, look [00:11:00] after each other in particular ways. Hard joint help if we need to. In our particular house, um, we've got we're lucky enough to have a big house. If stairs get to be a problem, it's two stories. It will be quite possible for the two of us to live totally downstairs and have a a hard, um, person living in or live in part of the time or something upstairs. That's it. I think we are in the fortunate position of having lots of possibilities, none of [00:11:30] which we can or want to decide on now. But we're aware of because of the discussion that's been in among our friends and in the community and with places like live we've become aware of of the sort of rage of possibilities. And we can, as time goes on, make some choices. And some people are not that fortunate exactly. I'm very well aware of that of the politics of it that we're we're rich in in those terms. I mean, maybe mainly my money, but, uh, I think of it just when it [00:12:00] becomes important, it's our money. Even if we haven't amalgamated totally, we certainly do for anything that matters. And, uh, and we've got a beautiful house and a beautiful location, and we're incredibly lucky. And, you know, they are race class. Um number of dependents. All these things are good for other people. And, um and, you know, I think helping others where you can is also important. And I've done some of that because you have indeed, Yes. And, um, but you can't help the whole world. So, [00:12:30] um, let's get a bit more positive now. I mean, not that that is positive, because we're thinking about it. We also we may be 69 and 70 but we're both full of energy, Have lots of activities. We love in some ways a happier older than we were. Well, certainly I feel as though I have a lot of choice about what I do with my time, and I do the things I want to do. And, um, a lot of that is kind of sort of in my head, Um, because [00:13:00] I'm a writer and it's so it's thinking about and finding out about stuff to do with my writing and then doing the writing and so on, and that's fortunate because it doesn't require a lot of physical stamina. Um, and I'm you know, I have a sort of love affair of sorts with the Internet or the bits of it that please me and plenty of it, I ignore. Um, I think perhaps one advantage [00:13:30] of being lesbian is that if you've been lesbian for any length of time at all, and I was one who came out rather late. Unlike Pru, who came out in her twenties is that you get in the habit of thinking a bit more widely because as a lesbian you have to kind of make up your life as you go because you don't fit the sort of set social pattern. Then you get used to thinking about the options, thinking a bit more widely, thinking about how you're gonna do things. [00:14:00] Um, and so that's an advantage in the sense that you, by the time you're getting old, you've got that habit. You don't see just one path because there's never been just one path for lesbians. Um, and so that's one way in which I would sort of claim an advantage, just that kind of rate of thinking. Um, I certainly don't feel disadvantaged, although I think there is some evidence [00:14:30] that people who end up in rest home or kind of being cared for situations often find that the fact they are lesbian becomes invisible, and that can be painful and even have act active discrimination they want to partner in or whatever whatever. So I have to say that hospitals and those kind of places I've got to be excellent things have improved a lot. But in any any dealings that [00:15:00] we've had with hospitals in recent years, mostly to do with me, there's never been any difficulty at all about you being my partner, for instance, so in those in those kind of structured, if you like health system situations, it's not a problem. But I think in a kind of rest home, caring for situation at best it can be, um, that the lesbianism is invisible. You don't have a partner, [00:15:30] uh, and lesbian friends, for instance, not being given the status of visiting family, for instance. Whereas in fact they have the role of family in a person's life. I think they can still be issues, but that's the sort of stuff that people are working on, and they need to um, we of course, um uh, it's often a little easier in the league in the system if [00:16:00] you have have had a civil Union, and this is an issue which is an interesting one, because, uh, a lot of our friends have had Well, some of our friends have had civil unions, although because of the particular brand of lesbian feminism we come out of, there's probably more resistance to it among our friends, among friends and among many, I mean, there are, of course, there are others who won't have a civil union because it's not total equality with marriage and at the end. And we are people who don't won't have a civil union, even though we've been [00:16:30] together for 15 years, because we don't see any need to whatever part of that's luck, that we don't have any interfering family. We haven't got custody issues or anything of that sort. And I totally understand people that immigration people have a civil union sorts of reasons. But if you don't have that, I don't have an interfering family. I have practically no family at all, and you you trust your son to be properly. We don't need to have a civil union and as, uh, feminists and I'm a feminist economist. I'd sort of analyse [00:17:00] the business that I didn't think marriage had been particularly good for heterosexual women. Anyway, why do we just want to join it and say we're just like you, blah, blah? We actually want to be a bit different, and we don't need it. We don't have to affirm it to anybody. We we, um We don't need the ceremony and to show others all the people that matter to us know we're an established, happy partnership. I, um I just think nobody should get married or have a civil union [00:17:30] or anything. Well, if this whole of the state welfare systems and rules were such that they nothing ascribed to it, then I would agree with you. But it will be hard to get that, um, for the agreed through the system. For the moment, I think you could just simply have somewhere where you go and sign and register. If you need to do that for the legal system, and then if churches want to have ceremonies or any group or goddess religion or anybody else, if anybody wants to have it, good [00:18:00] luck to them. We wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. OK, I could go along with that like some kind of a civil sign. Something to say that you're a partnership and some kind of ceremony. I mean, just a party for your friends if you want it or something in a church, if you want it or whatever. Fine. But the sort of the marriage thing is such an institution. And so, um, has such baggage has? Yeah, but I just I don't want a bar of it, Really. I mean, I was married once to a man. [00:18:30] Um, it wasn't a particularly good idea for both of us, for either of us. I think, with hindsight, get two kids out of it. I'm not at all sorry about that. Um, but I don't think we were good for each other as husband and wife particularly. And he wasn't a horrible person. Um, you know, he wasn't violent or any of those GS things. Um, so yeah, [00:19:00] so I guess I'm sort of anti marriage, period. So why would I? I mean, I would feel hypocritical to go and get married. Although I totally accept external reasons. Like, um um, Children, immigration. I know one couple who are close friends of mine got married because they feared difficulties in one of their families. If there was not some legal [00:19:30] basis, uh, at some point in the future. And that's right. Yeah, Let's let's get back to all the the nice things we do. Do as you said you are. You you choose your own time. You're a writer published novelist in recent times and so on. And, uh, and you also mentioned Internet and email and all that stuff I do. I do a lot of that too. I, uh you still do a bit of paid work. Oh, yeah, but yeah, but from home stuff, [00:20:00] well, I do a little bit of work that involves sort of meeting people in town. But I don't mind that because I like to go into town and it's it's 1 to 1 work with people I like working with. So, um, anybody I don't like working with has seemed to have fallen by the wayside. And I'm certainly not seeking out new Um, yeah, so I still do a bit of paid work, and I like that both because I like the extra bit of money and because I like what I'm doing. And what are What are your other activities apart [00:20:30] from writing and that, Well, this the sort of cultural ones the movies, which I don't go to nearly as many of as you do, but the movies and the shows and the, um, and the arts and the, um, and the book related events that I go to and the, um, and the voluntary work that we both do. I mean, you know, we both actually have a person older than us with some dementia, in fact, that we visit quite independently and separately [00:21:00] just happened. Um, and yes. And yes. So So you're still involved with other things. What, Uh, you're just about to do a book voluntarily. A writing group for lesbian book, Uh, for for the lesbian library. Yeah, that's a volunteer thing. And who does all kinds of volunteer things in the lesbian community and outside of it, the lesbian radio programme the, um the [00:21:30] the living wage thing. You know, your local your temple, you do a lot of volunteer work for them singing. I mean, in terms of activities, singing has become a very important retirement. One for me. I talk about singing Jewish on Saturdays and Christian on Mondays with a giggle and lesbian and gay now on Thursdays, because the Gle was, uh and I do a lot of singing and, um yeah, I. I like the other thing is the sort of the [00:22:00] specifically political stuff both lesbian, political and general political. We're both leftish and greenish. Uh, at least in theory, I'd like to be a bit more green in practise than I am, but, uh um, things like being a vegetarian is sort of somehow not I haven't managed to achieve because I like the other stuff too much, and I sometimes feel a bit hypocritical about some of those things, but, uh, and I rather drive the car too much, but, uh, but I'm certainly a green supporter and try and do a little better in practise than I used to. And I've done [00:22:30] work some work for the greens and this living wage thing that Pat remarked on as this, um, Service and Food Workers, New Union, new campaign on living wage. And I'm doing voluntary, um, stuff on the research group for that. So I like to do those things. I don't I don't do any paid work anymore. Really? I suspect. I think I've probably just finished doing my last, my last doctoral student having finished. And so, uh, I just relinquished my office at Victoria University last [00:23:00] Christmas and I was worried about that. I thought, you know, that my identity and a big would I miss that? But I actually don't. And would I miss having an office in town? Well, it's only six months, but, uh, I'm not finding that a problem. You've been much more relaxed about it than I thought you would be. Actually, it's been really good. Yeah, and I seem to have too many activities to do rather than too few. I simply can't with all those voluntary things and with I mean, I have [00:23:30] similar interests to pattern in arts and movies and things. But I'm not a writer myself. I think my singing is balance for your right. So we both have a kind of a creative kind of speak to what we do, which is good. Uh, yours is more so singing. I see what other people tell me to sing, but that's OK, but I love films, a similar part of one's psyche. I think that may well be right, and for me, with the physically active stuff and and those things [00:24:00] and the voluntary work and the, um, just keeping up with everything politically and so on. And I want to. I always remember that the reason my mother didn't want to die until just before the end, when she was really all too much for her. And she was in a lot of pain was that she couldn't bear not to know what was going on in the world like that. Yeah, quite like in some in many ways. That's why we get on. Some people like to have different Well, we have plenty of different [00:24:30] similarities. Um, one of the other things, um, Gareth, who commissioned this series, said that that was interested in us talking. Talking to various people about was some legacy in inverted commas. I You know what, um, does it matter to us whether anybody remembers us after we've gone, and if so what? By or don't we care about leaving a legacy? That's a good question. Um, I think we sort of stay alive as long as anybody remembers us. And, [00:25:00] um, you and I have both got written stuff. Yours nonfiction. Sure. Your lots of your papers and things that are online and all sorts of places. And one of the things about publishing my writing, um, is that I always make sure I send copies to the, um National Library for the National Archive. So that in a way, there's this tiny little dot of me in the, which [00:25:30] is lesbian fiction in the National Archive, which is there for anybody who's looking for something like that can find right. And it seems to me that that's the most important part of my of a legacy for me is the the fact that my writing about what it's like for some lesbians, certainly not all to be living in New Zealand at this time, [00:26:00] which is what my fiction is about. But that's there. And sure, in three decades, nobody much is going to be looking for it right. But, um, if anybody is looking for it, it's there. It's part of part of the national record, and that somehow matters a lot to me. And other than that, you know, when people who remember me die, well, I guess I've gone, Yeah, so that's part of the thing. [00:26:30] If David doesn't have Children. Yes. Um, that's part of the thing about not having Children and grandchildren. You got one child, and, uh and I do have occasional wistful feeling about that, but, um, I was a bit old for the I came out. Um, I never got married, and I came out quite young. And the lesbian baby boom started just about as I was finishing childbearing age. And I, um it crossed my mind for five seconds, and I knew I was too old and selfish, and it [00:27:00] wasn't a good idea. And, um uh, but, you know, one shouldn't be thinking necessarily about living through your direct descendants anyway. I mean, as you say, memories are important and and some degree of of written record, I don't think either of us are important enough for anyone for us to have biographies written on it. I mean, but you were in that book of Jewish people in New Zealand in New Zealand, and, um, you [00:27:30] see, I think that's all legacy. And, um, so perhaps I wouldn't like the idea of of thinking that I was going to sort of disappear in a puff of smoke forever or something. And the the knowledge of written record, you know, written, published writing somehow fulfils that need for me. Um And I mean, obviously it could be artworks or music or anything else. It just so that I'm a writer. But, I mean, you've got your woman in economics books, [00:28:00] and that's in the national record. And your, um, economics papers, um, you know, websites and stuff all over the place. And if they do disappear and they are no longer relevant, Well, and, uh, or if they emerge again in 100 years time as how often seems to be in circles rather than yeah, I I sometimes think I wonder what will happen to this house because it's such a beautiful house and that [00:28:30] we've both gone because we, um you know, and, uh, when I think about redoing wills, I think you know, I should I try and leave that to a cause? But on the other hand, um, it's probably more of a it's better for it to be sold. And that money is going to cause I like to think of leaving money to, um, a lot of it to to good causes. And, um, yes, I Yes, I don't I don't have that so much of a sense of things. Really. Um, [00:29:00] I think they come and they go. Well, I suppose I've lived in more different houses, for example than you have. So I'm not so attached to a particular house in the other bit of legacy, though of course, is I mean, what you know, we both do volunteer for things and and individual stuff and group stuff because we have a vision of trying to make the world a better place. And I do sometimes wish that I had done more to, uh, to make the world a better place. I do Jewish guilt and shame rather well and think I haven't done enough, [00:29:30] and I'm still not doing enough. And I'm enjoying myself too much now and not doing enough. But, uh, but certainly the business of having tried to make the world a better place, I think is an important part being Yeah, I don't sort of have that particular albatross or my albatross of that Nature is considerably smaller than yours. Um, so that doesn't bother me quite so much. I don't I. I would always want to think that I was doing something in my life that [00:30:00] was a contribution in some kind of way to, you know, and and it's much the same. It's the same for me. It heavier weight. Yes, it's the same kind of idea, but it's not such a heavy weight. And yeah, there's activities and then people do matter. I sometimes think we're both quite good at being on our own. I mean, we're we're not joined at the hit together. We do a lot of things together and a lot of things separately. We have a big house so that we can be quite separate in it when we want to [00:30:30] be. And then our studies are upstairs and downstairs, you might say, and, uh and so we can be quite separate. And I think we both like our own company individually and our company together without anybody else in which we are sometimes being compatible, and sometimes we're ignoring each other. All those things are good, but, um, and I think we're probably more self sufficient each of us than than many other people we know. But nevertheless, friends still matter, and certainly seeing seeing [00:31:00] friends individually or peers or or groups and some of the bigger, not quite so into bigger parties. But we we host lesbian pot luck this coming weekend this year, and and those sorts of, uh, of things of group group. Yes, I think as I get older, I'm less inclined to large group activities. It doesn't mean I don't do any, um, and I don't worry [00:31:30] too much about that. Um, and I've got a lot of good friends who are important to me and many of whom I my contact with is a bit, but it's important, and you talk a lot on the phone to people in other cities and and overseas. Yes, not as much as you think I do, I don't think, but and also yeah, and also it's It's not a an even thing. It it [00:32:00] comes and goes. Sometimes I'll speak to three people for an hour and a week, and then I won't talk to anybody for you know. So it it, um But yes, there are some connections that I work quite hard at keeping going because, um, because they're important and a lot of them aren't local. I always think I want to keep more than I actually actually managed to do because last year I went back to England and, um, it was 50 years since I've been to, um, up to Somerville College, Oxford, for the first time. We had a great big anniversary, and it was really neat. [00:32:30] And it was lovely seeing. And I saw the people, my close friends, of about half a dozen or so of the group I've managed to stay friends with across the miles of 43 years in New Zealand so that I do make some effort and, uh and that was really nice. And, uh, we, um, vowed to stay in touch. And, of course, I stayed in touch much less than I hoped to have One Skype conversation, and that's about it. I always do an end of year letter, which always keeps me a little in touch. But, um, uh, that's another thing for me to think instead [00:33:00] of winter with is, uh, one goes out that I might try and do some more calls to my friends in England. Yes, yes, indeed I do. And, um, yeah, it's It's funny how you don't seem to have time for everything even, uh, even even though for many years I've thought How does anybody ever manage to have a life and a full time job? Because, [00:33:30] um, yeah, And you know, I've worked, Who knows how long it is since I've worked full time because I've been self-employed. It's sort of not been readily measurable, but, um, you know, I've worked quite hard right up until, I don't know, 10 years ago or something. And since then, I've probably worked a bit less. And certainly since I turned 65 I've worked less for, um money, Um, [00:34:00] and and being pleased to be in a position to be able to Let's talk about one more thing. We're really over our time, but I can't resist it. Um, we've talked about what we enjoy doing and how we're still having darn good lives. And as long as we've got our health, we can go on doing so and hopefully, even as your health declines, there are some things you can still do. And we've talked about legacy. But we haven't really talked about the process of, um of dying and [00:34:30] death and what we think, And I suppose afterwards we are saying that essentially it's through memory. You're not a A taught you're an atheist and I call myself a Jewish agnostic and I don't really believe in an afterlife as such, and so not to worry about that so much, But the actual process of dying I am a bit worried about, um I've given that quite a lot of thought and don't think about it quite so much now as I used to. I think I, um because I [00:35:00] think I've decided it's unknowable in the sense that you can't know whether you're just gonna drop dead like that, which has its attractions or, you know, have a long, slow, painful or a short pain Uh, a not painful illness or whatever. And it's like, Yeah, and and so you can't prepare yourself for how you're going to die because it's something you can't know. So I've a little bit throw my hands up in the air and said to myself, What will be will be, [00:35:30] um and I hope I can do it with some grace when whatever it is occurs. Yes, I, I don't know whether I want grace, grace and dignity is one way of doing it. I remember two cancer deaths of friends I knew had grace and dignity, and I couldn't believe how wonderful she was. And I thought maybe she was a bit too wonderful, you know, and cared about everybody else. And maybe if she had a bit less, she might have lasted longer and my other very close friend And I won't put her name on in this context. But you know who I met [00:36:00] who was angry as hell and bloody awful to a lot of people, but who had far longer years than you would have expected with secondary cancer and, um, have no grace and dignity at all. I may be a bit at the end, but I don't mean having grace. Well, I don't necessarily think grace and has to have dignity, right? But certainly I'm just Certainly when I talk about with Grace, I'm talking about the kind of the actual end, the end, few days or hours or whatever. I'm not suggesting that [00:36:30] I want to be Those can be Those can be years, of course. And I mean, that's the other part that worries me. I mean, I am in principle. I'm in favour of of euthanasia. If one if one chooses. If one thinks one's had enough because it's terribly painful or not, and you're never going to get better, I'm principal. I think you should be able to make that choice, although in practise there are so many fish hooks and difficulties and are you in the You know it may be too late for you to choose yourself at that point, and you can't involve other people and get them [00:37:00] in. But in theory, II, I think you should be able to to choose if things are are really difficult for you. And I don't want a long, painful illness. Thank you. If I can possibly avoid it, Um, you want quality of life until the end, and otherwise why bother? But, you know, as you say, you can't. No, you can't make those decisions in advance. And you can, of course, prepare better than what you have in terms of the practicalities, but not [00:37:30] all your possessions and stuff. I still got a hell of a mess of files which I've got to deal with and this thing on the medical front, there's things like the do not resuscitate provisions. If you and power as well as well. Yeah. So there are all those kind of things and on our list for a while. And we haven't done anything very practical about we will, but they Yeah, we can do those for a while, but we don't [00:38:00] plan to die for quite a long while. I don't ever plan to die. I've got no, I'm perfectly well occupied. And, um, things are Yeah, carry on. Carrying on. Thank you. Absolutely. Me too. And we have both have a very good life. We do? Yes, we extremely fortunate. And we have a very good life. Yeah, Excellent. Separately and together. OK, well, that's probably more than you wanted to know about us. So this [00:38:30] is Prue and Pat signing off? Yes, indeed. Signing off.
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