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OK, well, this is meant to be a quite sort of informal interview. Of which we sort of think about, um um what it means for you, um, for being, um an old or older or whatever lesbian and the sorts of things that are, um, you've thought about with respect to it. And you're very much at the younger end of the spec, you know, I guess I am. I'm 61. So that puts me at the end. And you don't Do you even think of yourself as being an older lesbian? I asked you partly [00:00:30] because you're involved with a group involved with with those those? Yes, yes, and the Lesbian Elders Village. Now, I don't really think of myself as old or older, but I am conscious that I will be before too long so it feels nearer than it did 10 years ago. And I think that's why I'm involved in live because I can see that being closer in the issues that come with it being closer, Although I'm not experiencing them. So you're probably one of the younger ones in the group? Not at all. No. I'm one of the [00:01:00] one of the older ones. I think there are 1234 perhaps older than me. So in some ways, the group is about planning for it. Not being there exactly. Perhaps you could tell us a bit about the group to start with because we won't have anyone else involved with. OK, so this is an Auckland based group, which, um came in response to a S a on, um, experience with her partner Marlene, when Marlene was, um, diagnosed with Alzheimer's [00:01:30] and the issues that came up with being a lesbian and trying to get care and appropriate care for a lesbian. And so we've responded to that, and we in Auckland, there's a a core group of about 13 or 14. Um, and we've been looking at how we want to grow old and the different ways that we can make that happen, where we can be who we are in an environment that we are determining and not having to fit in [00:02:00] in a straight environment and certainly not have to go back to being in the closet in a straight environment and trying to create. So we came up with the concept of a village type, the idea of a village. So that's why we called the Lesbian Elders Village. And how far have you got with it? So far, we've done enormous amounts of planning and talking. And, um, we have, uh, an ownership structure. So we have an ownership structure and a sort of a model for the village. And really, we're at the point and it gets to be a [00:02:30] bit of a Catch 22. You know, we need to buy land in order to start building. But in order to buy the land, we need to sell our houses. Because, of course, none of us have got millions stashed away. And so, But if we sell our houses, where are we going to live while we're building the village? And interestingly, there's a reluctance from just about all of us to sell where we are in order to buy something to make it happen. And there is a cost issue because it's like, how far out of the city do we want to be, And if you're buying something [00:03:00] in the city that's going to be big enough to build accommodation for, you know, 50 people or 100 people, it's very expensive. And so there are some big issues there we've got to deal with because we have to be willing to take the plunge. That's right. But it is a difficult one and probably need some outside funding to help you. We will need some outside funding, particularly at the beginning. And so that's another thing that we are looking at investigating, investigating [00:03:30] grants and things, but yeah, one. I mean, of course, there are some some similar sorts of things, at least in the U. SI don't know. Well, the US ones are mostly public housing, and they're mostly targeted at people who can't afford their own homes. They don't have the tradition, as we have here of home ownership. Um, but they're certainly looking at a lot of things. And I did go over a few years ago to investigate some of what was happening there through [00:04:00] the, um, old lesbians organising for change. Um, but yes, the the things we looked at were public housing. Yeah, which was very exciting. But it was public housing, which is not like to come here. No, what you want What we want Exactly where the real crunch comes. Um, I know you've got a super website which I've looked at. We do have a website and we have twice a year. I think one of the issues is that [00:04:30] we're all incredibly busy. Yeah, and you know, it's that freeing up the time and the energy to try and make things happen more. I mean, our of course, um went around the country and and was talking at one early on in the piece and was trying to get groups going other places as well. And we did have meetings in this region Wellington cap the coast. But I don't think anybody has had the energy to take it onwards here. And, uh, for some of us some, I mean Pat and I we're hoping that will be a, [00:05:00] uh, not a lesbian village, but at least have a quite a large number of community can almost do it. Yeah, and for me, I had the experience because my partner died 2.5 years ago and one of the things, of course, that comes up from that. She was only 47 when she died. And so it's not just about age, but the whole thing of needing care is not just about growing old, it's about getting illness. And the experience we had during that time where we were so incredibly [00:05:30] supported by our friends by our lesbian friends was that if we had lived even closer together, it would have been so much easier for them. It put people under a lot of pressure because they cooked for us and they came around and they cleaned for us. And they did all sorts of things to enable Sue to have the best quality of life that she could and to enable me to be with her as much as I could. Um, and that was really hard when we were spread around Auckland suburbs, even though we all lived in the kind of western suburbs, it was still really [00:06:00] difficult. And so that for me, heightened how important it is that we at least live ideally in walking distance from each other, if not a short car ride. But, you know, walking distance would be great, you know, they're still bound to be issues with care, are they not, because for some people, I mean it depends how, what sort of illnesses people have. But you can't always stay in place. When you've got really severe, you can't always. But certainly the trend in public care is very much [00:06:30] towards now, keeping people at home as long as possible rather than going into care. It's actually It's unfortunate, of course, but to be expected that for the state they'll go for the cheapest option. And in this case, we're lucky that the cheaper option is actually the better option, which is supporting people to stay at home with as much care as possible. A lot of retirement villages sort of do levels of care, don't they? They do, they do. And uh so they've got different they wouldn't be looking at. There's a little bit of difference [00:07:00] in us in terms of how we look at that. Some people within the group want to have hospital care. Others of us and I'm in the group who don't think that the cost of doing it and the regulations around it are far too hard and that actually we should look at supporting each other to be in our own homes as long as possible. And for most of us, that will be until we die, because most people. Actually, most old people die at home. And for those who can't and whom we can't support at home, then we [00:07:30] need to ensure that we can be our lesbian Selves in whatever institution we happen to be in, whether it's a private hospital or public hospital or whatever it is. Yeah, well, we don't That's probably enough about that on the website so people can go and find it. Well, let's let's talk more about, uh, what you're thinking about personally about the challenges of of, um, getting [00:08:00] older. And and of course, there are different challenges for you that I mean, we all have different challenges. You've got got Children. But, um, you have a partner who's who's having died. I know you haven't got no, and I don't imagine I will be in another relationship. That's my sense at the moment. And you can tell as well as Sue would say, Never say never. But it's my feeling is that I probably won't be, um, and that's absolutely [00:08:30] fine. I don't Yes, I'm very happy being on my own at this stage, but it does raise issues. I mean, you know, for anybody you know, you get the flu, you get sick. It's horrible being on your own. And while that's fine, when I'm relatively young and able bodied, that may be different when I'm 75 or 80 in terms of how I feel and that's where we get back to. If there's someone next door who can come in, make you a hot lemon drink or, you know whatever bring something [00:09:00] in, it's so much easier. And something else we were talking about before we started the tape was things like Holidays and travel. And, uh, you know how How do you want to deal with those things? So you are intrepid enough to do it all on your own. I do some on my own, but not all of it. And so it is finding I you know, I travelled last year with a friend and we went to the Michigan Women's Music Festival and travelled in the States, and it went really well and yeah, sometimes I think it's different friends for different holidays. You know, I want [00:09:30] a blob holiday. I want to go to to and just blob on the beach. I probably wouldn't it'd be another person. Maybe you know it's that sort of thing. It is much harder without a partner, and you used to be a big walker. I still really enjoy that. Which is how I managed to, um, break my arm, which is currently in pasta, and I enjoy that. I'm actually happy walking on my own, but I also have friends that I can do it with, and I enjoy that. So I'm fine for those sorts of things. Um, [00:10:00] it's more just the little things, you know, the day to day things. But that's the reality for anyone who's on their own at any stage. So you know the things about growing old and being on your own, um, more the, um, little extra cares that a partner can do at times that you have to do everything for yourself. So, yeah, you chop the wood and you light the fire and you vacuum the floor and you do all of those sorts of things. None of it's shared right now. It's interesting with respect to the village that it's an Auckland based thing, and you've been in [00:10:30] Auckland for quite a few years now as an ex Christchurch girl, and now I'm moving to moving to Wellington. But presumably you'd move back up at some point. If the village necessarily. We've talked about this, um and not necessarily maybe so. You might be involved with the village, but not necessarily living in it. That's right, because yeah. So I'm moving to Wellington. Basically because of my grandchildren. I've got two grandsons and I want to help turn them into good men. I think the world needs good men and there's two [00:11:00] of them that I can help bring up. Um, but they they're six and four. But when they're older, who knows? That's a big open question. And you've got more than they've got the same mother, haven't they? But you've got other. Yes, but possibly they'll be the only two. But they they're all around Wellington at the moment. You've got three daughters. I've got three daughters, two in Wellington. One's gone back to Christchurch. She's gone back to university, so she's in Christchurch. But obviously your family is very important [00:11:30] to my family. Is very important to me. Yes, I'm very close. I've got three daughters, which is a wonderful thing, and I'm very close to them and I enjoy being with them. So they're a big part of that family part of your growing older. But you've also got friendship networks that I've got friendship networks in Christchurch and in Auckland. And I have got some old ones in Wellington that I will resurrect. Indeed. Yeah, but strong ones in Christchurch and Auckland. And, uh, what about lesbian community? [00:12:00] I mean, there's a lot of that lesbian community. Is lesbian community important to you hugely important to me and I can't imagine. I mean, one of the things that made it easy to think about moving to Wellington was that I know people here, and it's, as I say, easy to pick up those links again and feel connected to a community because I couldn't imagine living somewhere and not being connected to a lesbian community. Yeah, that's just not that I couldn't do it in terms of sort of political activity. I mean, obviously, there is a political activity in itself. Is that your main lesbian [00:12:30] one these days? Yes, it is. It's my own. I've been part of the, uh, newsletter, the Auckland News newsletter. Um, but that's the main live in the news. The have been my main ones. Um, yes. So I'll be hooking up to something when I move to Wellington. Because it is an important part of my life that I am involved in politics. Things are a bit quiet in Wellington. You have to start something. We don't have to stir things up. We don't have a newsletter. We [00:13:00] do, of course, have a radio and a library and various other things. And you've got the archives. And yes, yes, it is quite a bit. What about other things? How do you see? Do you How do you do You think ahead. Do you see how your life may change as you get more into the older group? I'm still working. I'm still working and I want to keep on working. Um, I imagine cutting back like I'm looking for work now. And if something was four days, I'd be really happy, you know, maybe even three. Probably [00:13:30] four. But, you know, I look at cutting back gradually. Retirement's not a concept that, um my none of my family have ever retired. My father's 90 he's still working, although more slowly than he used to. But he's still working, So yes, we don't really do retirement. My mother never got old enough to retire. Unfortunately, she died young. Um, so I don't have that, right? Exactly. Yeah. And having some time to do more voluntary things and be involved [00:14:00] and have more time with the boys. What about, um, hobbies? You've already talked about walking and travel and other things. Well, reading and gardening and yeah. So that's the other thing I'd be really interested in. Is transition town the whole transition town movement I'm really interested in. And I'd love to be part of something like that in Wellington too, right? I mean, I've been involved in environmental stuff. Yes, I have self sufficiency and sustainability [00:14:30] and all of those things. So I still flirt occasionally with the idea of building a nice little passive house down here friendly house. So, yes, that early in Christchurch out of Christchurch, Weren't you involved with? No, in Christchurch? You had that, um, where we live at here road. And we were We had a big community there. Yeah, but something else there. Was that right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. It was part of, um it was one of those labour schemes where we were teaching [00:15:00] people how to grow things organically. Yes, So I have been part of all of those things for a long time, and that will continue. I think the transition to our movement is really exciting. And I'd love to be part of a raising awareness around that. The other thing I'm really interested in that ties in with growing old is how we approach this and how we care for ourselves, particularly just after death, the time between the dying and the funeral and how we manage that. And I'm really that that is probably [00:15:30] the area I'm really going to focus on, uh, tell. Tell us a bit more about that. Well, um, it's the whole thing for a lot of people. This itself is unfamiliar, let alone how you care for someone how you what you do. And so I'm working on the premise. And I'm very lucky that I have a family history, a cultural history, um, Irish Catholic, where death was just part of life. And so if I use that experience with Sue [00:16:00] when Sue died, um, we didn't have her balmed. We kept her at home. She didn't leave home. We washed her. She died at home. We washed her and dressed her at home. We kept her cool using actually using ice Chill those ice packs you put in chilli bins. You know so And we could have kept her at home for six or seven days like that. You don't need to embalm people. So all the issues around embalming toxicity what it does to the environment, reassuring people that you don't have [00:16:30] to embalm to have someone not start decaying. You can keep them at home. Yes. So all of those issues thinking often, funeral directors direct. It's the nature of what they do you. When someone dies, you're vulnerable. You're not thinking clearly. And it's helping people to to know what the choices they have are lots and lots of people have said to me, Oh, they came and they took mum away or they took so and so away. And they did. They just sort of went along with it because they didn't know they had any choices around it. [00:17:00] How you organise the being at home, how you organise the farewells, what happens after that? All of those things. So for me, the idea of working with people to make sure they know their choices and help them decide what choices they want to make. It's doing with death. What what feminist did with birth back in the seventies? It's it's owning it. And the book that I read that thinking about the same. [00:17:30] And so that's I guess, probably where I see myself doing most of my political work not just with lesbians, but in a huge way with lesbians because we do it so well. What about the final bit of, uh, of the burial itself? Have you got ideas there? I mean, did did sue have a I mean, I don't know much about natural burial, but right, there's the whole She investigated the eco burial. Um, for Sue being buried. It was the whole thing of Where are you buried [00:18:00] and who? Why are you buried? And because she'd had a lot of radiotherapy and a lot of very toxic drugs. Her as she said, Whatever happened to her, she was going to be toxic. Whether she was in the ground or whether she was burned. She That was just how it was. Um, she had, you know, the radiation therapy stays um she decided in the end she wanted to be cremated, and that was an issue for me. I had to work with it because I'm not used to cremation. [00:18:30] Um, but we went through that, and that was that was good. Um, for me, I'd like to have an eco burial, you know? And the whole thing is about being buried in the first, not going down 6 ft. But you know that the worms and all the decaying action happens at the top level. So it's really looking at that. Yeah. So that's great. Yes, yes. And with yeah, yeah. So that's my That's my I [00:19:00] guess my experience has drawn me to that. And I think it's a big, big issue for us, and lots of people don't like to think about it, But we need to think about it. We need to talk about it and the other practical stuff around. It was the things Sue and I were a couple, and although we didn't share finances, we I knew where her things were. But there were things that I had to do with her affairs that I had no idea I had to. I would have to do and just making sure we know those things. If we go back to the birth analogy, it's like having a backpack before we have the baby, you know? So you've got all the things [00:19:30] you need, the same idea. You were partner so you could do it all with her. It's also important that those of those people who don't have partners, which may include may have other people who know somebody one or more people. I was her partner, but I wasn't legally her next of kin because we were not civil union right, which was a decision not to be. But there are issues around that, too, and that's something that we need to think about people expressing their wishes on in in [00:20:00] writing. So that and Sue, in her straightforward sort of way, had said to her sister, who was her legal next of kin, what wants gets. And that was really and Joe was fine when there were any issues around that yes, for my partner and myself don't want to be, yes, but we do have to think about what that means in terms of next of kin, because that was one of the things that I mean. I put myself [00:20:30] on the death certificate as her next of kin and as her partner. But if there'd been any questions, it wouldn't have been quite so straightforward. That's right. It's one of those reasons, of course, why some people do get civil unions because they fear that they have family who are interfering. I understand that, you know, because it does give you a legal right which you don't have. So it's very much about people's relationship to their families and about having things out in the open. So it is something we need to talk about and think about and not just presume because [00:21:00] it's still happening, that families step in and it's wills and everything else. I mean, an awful lot of us, even who are very aware. Pat and I have been talking about we've protected each other in our wills, but we they're still out of date in some other respects and and we don't get around to doing it. And if we are choosing not to civil union for political reasons, we have to follow through and make sure that our affairs are totally in order and that we've actually done all the little bits around that, so [00:21:30] that they're the things that I feel strongly about. And I've often thought, you know, probably as time goes on when I, you know, as I feel more able running workshops and around things like that is something I'd really like to do so that we know really important. And that's very different. If we think about what's different for us as lesbians, that is absolutely yeah, yeah. And what other sorts of things? I mean, um, money has been touched on because [00:22:00] of the business of selling houses and and the village is is money a thing that you need to worry about at all as you get older, or is it something you don't have to think about? I've never been very good at sort of thinking about retirement and, um, putting money aside, but I I I don't have lots of money, but I have enough that I will be able to live in a freehold house and, you know, yes, I'll be fine. So I'm lucky in that respect that I've earned reasonable money. And, of course, then there's the wills [00:22:30] thing about, um, you've got kids and grandchildren. So you have to figure out, Well, it is because certainly when I was, it's interesting when I was younger and, um, my partner at that time and I we you know, we made our wills out and left money to the the lesbian community for different things and left some to our Children, but essentially the bulk of our estate. We were leaving to the lesbian community, and that's something I need to look at. I have. Obviously, I've made some requests to lesbian community, but [00:23:00] as once Children get older and want to buy their own homes and all of that thing, it it changes it. But I think it's it's an important thing to think about. And I've actually talked to my kids' dad about it because they don't need to inherit a whole lot from each of us and, um, the one that is something I need to think about. And I guess for lesbians who don't have Children, it's the whole estate that they people like you need to think about in terms of where does it go and what do you do? Does [00:23:30] it go to blood family or does it go to community all those things And not only the community, but other things. Yes, exactly. That's right. So it's really important. Exactly all those things that you're involved in and we need to We do need to think about it really carefully and may need to change it after five years, but yes, yes, it's It's absolutely right. [00:24:00] Mhm. Yeah, Well, um, sort of legacy you've got a you're gonna have lots of legacy with with with family. But we die. Whatever our religious or non beliefs or not, you know, we aren't gonna be physically here. Do we care about anything that happens after we go and about us? My caring or it's more a wish is about how I'm remembered. I don't know. Once I'm gone, I'm gone. [00:24:30] It's going to be up to the others, but yes, I'd like to be remembered as someone who made a difference and and helped. Um, yeah, politically help that kind of movement. Yeah, including bringing up. Um I mean, it helps of bringing up help bringing up two very good male. Yes. Well, that's right. That's political. It totally is. And that's why you know, I was very happy in the, um, seventies and eighties [00:25:00] to have daughters and to bring up strong, stroppy feminist women, which I have done. And that's great. And now the challenge for all of us is to bring up good, gentle, caring, fully rounded men. And, um so these two boys have got three aunts and a grandmother who are doing that for them. Or two aunts, a mother, a mother, two aunts and a grandmother. So they're very lucky boys. They presumably got some fathers as [00:25:30] well of some sort. Yes, of course, and very involved fathers and uncles. But it's it's just thinking about mothers as mothers have a role with sons, and I hate looking at it. And it's not about blaming mother and putting everything on Mother. But I look at many mothers, and I feel sad at what they've done to their sons, and they have done it. Yeah, and yeah, Father's [00:26:00] role is father's role, and And what? What do you say? That's interesting. What do you see mothers doing? I see mothers picking up after their sons cooking for their sons, not expecting their sons to look after themselves, not bringing up fully rounded self sufficient men. Yeah, so I want my grandsons to grow up, knowing how to cook and to clean a toilet and to see dirt and to remove it and to not expect someone else to pick up after them. And if they [00:26:30] take those values into the wider world, then they won't be involved with things that leave mess behind them on a minor manner, way or the major way of wars and in every way that's right. And I remember reading an article a new internationalist decades ago, and it really rang true. And it said if men had to do the washing and put it out and watch it get grey from the smog and the pollution and deal with that, they would see the world differently. And it's because they don't have to do [00:27:00] those things that they don't have to think about consequences. And if we all had to think about the consequences of our actions on other people, we would change the way we worked and the way we live, and that's to me. It's one of my worries is that a lot of women don't see them either these days, and not all women No, absolutely. And that's, you know, we talked about it as a male female divide. And it's not, um, but I still see even [00:27:30] even, you know, I see sons of my feminist and lesbian friends who still expect to be looked after and picked up after and that So that's the big one for me with the boys. Yeah, What happened? What else have we What haven't we talked about? What other things can we think about? We've covered a lot of ground and, um, last thoughts out of out of I suppose [00:28:00] it's It's about the thing of feeling comfortable when the of owning old and of saying yes, I am old and I'm thinking, When am I going to be happy to say that? You know, I can look at my dad and I think, Yeah, he's 90. He's a little bit frailer than he used to be. I guess he's old. I'm 61. I'm you know, I I'll I'll own to middle age now, Um, but the [00:28:30] the the process of ageing and all that that means and the limitations and the widening of options and possibilities. It's something about accepting, you know, where we are. It's a process. There's not an end point. It's a process. Yeah, and I I'm aware that my body doesn't do the things that used to do when I was young. But you can still I can still do pretty much everything. But you know, I don't If I lose fitness, I don't get it back so quickly. [00:29:00] I'm a bit stiffer when I get up in the mornings. You know all those kinds of things. Yes, I sit down on the grass and have my lunch. And when I stand up, it's, you know, So it changes. So it's, you know, working to stay as young as I can physically, but acknowledging that, yes, this process is happening. But on the other hand, one has perhaps a little bit more wisdom and some things that I think I think so. Yes, that's right. Those things are really good. Yeah, I do feel wiser. I feel more [00:29:30] tolerant. I feel this. I used to be quite angry a lot of the time about how things were, and I don't feel like that anymore. I feel more tolerant in a good way. Not in a bad way, you know? Yeah, Yeah, and can see things more. You know you're not. You understand? Yes, yes, The world is not as black and white as I used to think it was, and I feel more able. It's still an awful lot needs to be done. It's a lot. I feel [00:30:00] I got it. Yes, exactly, exactly. And that's one of the things that the world is so different now. And if I look back to when we were in our thirties and forties and how there was so much to be done and we worked so hard and we were so passionate about it and I see that it's faded a lot, you know? And I feel sad about that because those things, as you say, there's an awful lot that needs to be done and the younger generation at times one thinks they're not doing enough. At times, you realise that you can't speak to the younger generation, they they're doing it in different ways, [00:30:30] right? Exactly, and their issues are different and they have no idea what it was like and how it used to be. Their issues are different, but there are still issues from that time that we have both as lesbians and and, as you know, left wing people in this kind of society. Well, I think that's quite I think that covers an awful lot of ground. Thank you very much, Mark. Appreciate. It was I enjoyed it.
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