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Is it OK? You've been thinking of yourself as an older woman and an older lesbian. It's constantly surprising, actually. Prue II. I don't think I've ever had a birthday that's affected me more. I mean, some people find 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 all of those were fine by me. But I can't actually believe that I'm 70. That happened quite recently. Yes, and And that was, um, just, um, three or four months ago. So, um and I, I I don't [00:00:30] I mean, we clearly have an idea in our heads of of, uh, What 70 is. And I suppose at the time that we were growing up, it was old. I mean, my mother didn't make it till 70. My father made it just past 70. And they both in my mind's eye, seemed a lot older to me than I am to me now, if you understand what I mean. Well, I think everybody's saying that, you know, 70 is the old 50 or whatever, and we're lucky we can be more Absolutely. I'm sort of hoping that, you know, 70 [00:01:00] is really the new 40 I'm going to be here for another 30 years or so. It's the number left. That's the problem, isn't it? But but, um, apart from being astonished and I've had a conversation with a couple of other women lesbian friends who've, um, have the same experience, I you know, I I'm lucky because I'm in good health. Um, and the only thing wrong with me really is mechanical failures. My, um, daughter who's a doctor was down. Um, came to visit recently, [00:01:30] and I said, I said accusingly. I don't know why I said it accusing. It's not her fault that I'm 70. Um, I said, I'd just like to run through all the things that are wrong with my body. Sarah, let's start with my big toes, which have got arthritis, and then my my ankle, which goes occasionally for no apparent reason, coming up to my knee, which I pretend has got nothing wrong with it, but actually does twinge occasionally. Um, then we go into some sort of slight bow stuff, which I won't [00:02:00] bother the tape with coming on up to, uh, my hands, which, um, I think are arthritic rather than having oose, and I hope it's arthritic rather than noose and and a shoulder, which I've wrecked playing with the computer. Really? Um, so one way or another, these mechanical details are, you know, very annoying. I think it's better, though. You you separate mechanical from health because, I mean, some people would say I probably not in good health. [00:02:30] Yes, not having cancer. Heart trouble, those sorts of things. And you still walk quite a bit, don't you? Yes, I do. And, um, and I do feel that I'm very lucky because I do enjoy good health. And I suppose that's another thing about growing old. But it's not a I guess it's not a particularly lesbian thing. It's just that it is awful starting to have people you know or friends fail health wise, either mentally or physically. And that's quite hard. More. I've been to more funerals [00:03:00] in the last 10 years than I've ever been in my life before. And, of course, that's ordinary, isn't it? I remember my parents starting to look in the Death Club and go to funerals. It's gone from their generation to our rapidly, and we had friends that died when we were, well, really young, too. Yeah, but I you know, because you, um, had asked me if I do this I. I was thinking about whether there are differences. Um, for lesbians [00:03:30] growing old and for, say, heterosexual women and I, I think there are There is in terms of the quality of friendship. Now, I'm not that I don't want to, um, say that heterosexual women don't have very good friends, and I'm sure they do. And for some buddies and so forth. But I think, um, we cultivate more friends and perhaps more deeper friendships, even with ex [00:04:00] lovers. Perhaps that, you know, and unlike, and that's often I think, unlike, well, it may not be unlike the world now, but it was unlike the heterosexual world when I was younger and in it, and you didn't have any, Uh, you didn't ever see your ex as a after, uh, but, you know, we do, and we can still be very, very close to them. Indeed. And I think that business of having, um, deep and good friendships and friendship circles, um is one place where we may [00:04:30] well have an advantage. Although you often see a lot of heterosexual a group of heterosexual women that you often see at things together, and you know they're doing it, too. But it is a big thing, and it so for some of us who don't have Children, it's a compensation. You, of course, do have kids, which makes you less similar than some. That's right, but But I was thinking about that. You know, I've got, um, my Children. I've got four Children and they've all been scattered around the world. And, um, now they've all come home. There's I've got three [00:05:00] of them plus partners and in two cases, families in Auckland. And I've got +11 has always been in Wellington with her two Children. Um but people have been saying to me, Oh, so you'll be moving to Auckland and my response is, why would I move to Auckland? My friendship circles here. I love my Children, but I don't want to be in their pockets, and I'm sure they don't want me to be in their pockets. I mean, if I got terribly old and decrepit and my health did go, it might be that my Children might have [00:05:30] to look after me. On the other hand, there might be a couple of friends younger lesbian friends who would be happy to take on that role for a while. I don't want to have to leave my house if I can possibly avoid it. Yes, I think that's one of the interesting things as we get to our sorts of ages, the thinking. We may not want to think ahead that much, but one has to do a little bit of thinking ahead of what happens if things fail or whatever. And you've obviously done a little of that, at least. Indeed, Yes, [00:06:00] yes, I think, um well, you know, the turning the the the thing about thinking about being 70 hardly able to believe it also makes you think about this is not so far away. Even if it's 20 years away or 25 years, it's a lot closer than it was when I when I was born. What did I read the other day? Um, good health is only a slower way of getting to death, but like taxis are inevitable. But you would like to stay in your own home. [00:06:30] Yes, as long as you possibly could off. Yes, I would. And, uh, and whether that happens or not, It depends on what happens to my health. I guess I have. Yeah, I have quite a good role model in a, um, a neighbour who lives, who's right next door, who's just coming up to 80 is very staunch, even though she's had quite a lot of bad health. She keeps coming home and does show no sign of wanting to leave. And it would. You'd like it to be this home. I mean, you're up the hill a bit [00:07:00] in Brooklyn. Is it easy? Yes, but it's, um, very good bus service at the moment I drive, Uh, but if I didn't drive, the bus is just across the road. And, um, it's a good service. And this is a flat section, Um, in terms of getting well, I've got a few steps to get to the house, but nothing much. Nothing like a lot of houses in Wellington. Um, yeah. And how about your activities? As are they changing much as you get as I get older? Well, the only thing that's changed [00:07:30] is I'm working less. Um, really I. I do a lot of walking, which I've always done. I'm hoping to do the root burn later in the year. Um, what else? I've been able to take up piano lessons again because, um, because I'm semi retired and that's a joy and a delight because I've got a really good teacher. Rose be who's wonderful and such a good piano teacher. And even if I've done no practise, [00:08:00] every lesson is a joy. Um, and again, you know that's not about being lesbian, I guess. But I, I think we're as I said, I was thinking about this before, and I think we might be a little bit more adventurous than our heterosexual, um, friends who've been in marriages and have, perhaps been tied to a couple activities and so forth that we've made our own way. Whether or not we're in a couple of relationship, which [00:08:30] I'm not, um, presently, um, I. I think we're prepared to do things for ourselves and make our own way, and that I and I think that probably stands us in good stead when we're getting older. What can change? Of course. Um, if you've retired, um, and you haven't had a very lucrative job is that you may find that you can't do some things as much as you'd like to because of lack of money. Fortunately, [00:09:00] I you know, I had quite a good job, and I, um, was able to save quite a bit at the moment. And I've let my Children so much money, which they're paying me back slowly, that I really think I'll be dead before they've paid it all back. So it leaves you enough to do the things you want? Yes. And so? So that's, you know, that's not a problem for me at the moment. Um but I do see that that could be a problem for some people. But for me, um, semi retirement, I say semi because I'm still, [00:09:30] um, I'm editing a little magazine for a women's group and that comes out every two months. Um, so I'm That takes about a quarter of my time, basically. So I've got a lot of time to walk my daughter's dog, which I do every day. Um, do my piano, practise, read and visit friends, have lunch with friends and so forth. Um, which I enjoy doing and it sounds like a good life. It's a It's a very good life. Actually, you do a bit of overseas [00:10:00] travel, too, don't you? Um, yes. I didn't really start doing that until March until after I retired. I, I really have this belief that, um if you're going to be overseas, you should live there for a while. And that's what I did in my younger days. I mean, um, when I was still married before the age of 45 uh, we'd spent three years, 3.5 years in Cambridge. Um, when I was in my twenties, I had my first child there. [00:10:30] And then, um, about 10 years later, we had a year in the States, Um, both in terms of my ex-husband's work work. Um, and that was fabulous. I mean, you do get a much better feel for a country than you do just by being a tourist, but, um, after I retired and I had a, um what was a very sad break up for me? I actually just wanted to get out of the country for a while, So I went to, [00:11:00] um was the first place I went because AAA lesbian friend was taking a little group, and I thought, Yes, i'll go. And and it was lovely. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the company and I got a bit of a taste for it. It's it's different. It's more. Oh, I don't know. It's like a, um I I've lost the word, Which, which is another thing that happens, actually, as you get older, um, sort of laid back Pacific Island [00:11:30] that Yeah. No, no, no. I was trying to think what you are as a tourist as to what you are if you live there, um, you you're I suppose one word is a succubus, but on the other hand, they do like you to come and spend money. A lot of countries, but and and I've been to some stunning places and, uh, and just love that, um oh, and I also had i before I stopped work. I did go overseas for work as well. And that was that was more, [00:12:00] in a way, interesting and then put holidays onto the end of that. But I've been to Italy a couple of times. I've been to Paris. Um, and I've been fortunate enough to go to Paris once with one of my Children, who's, uh, his colleagues that he's friendly with. There so that was lovely. We stayed at the grandmother's house of his colleague. She lets it out, and it was stunning behind one of those blank Paris walls that look really dreary. And when you open the gate, you go into the [00:12:30] and it's a little street with a great vine growing right up it. And every house belongs to a member of the family. But like Maori, in a way. And, um and we went and had dinner with them. And and it was not like being quite like wasn't quite like being a tourist. So that was lovely. I don't know how I got onto my travel pro. I don't know. I provoked thinking about the activities I knew you did. Yes, but what about, um, community and sort of, um, in broad sense, political [00:13:00] law activities? I know you've been involved in some You've done interviews yourself. Um, has that changed as you got older? What? What's happening there? Yes, I have to say that that's changed. Probably from one view viewpoint for the worst. Because, really, I'm not doing anything very political at all. Now I popped into, um I've been doing some decluttering, you know, rather than people do it when I die, why don't I do it when I'm alive? And I was I've been reading out my books to, [00:13:30] um, books that, you know, I'm going to read again or books that I couldn't get hold of again if I wanted to. And and the others, which can go And, um, there were a couple of books, um, two or three. Well, there were about eight or nine lesbian themed books that I decided I didn't really need, And I rang, um, got hold of Lila a while ago and said, Would you like these? And they had seven of them, but I had had the other three lying around for ages. And I finally thought last night, Wednesday lilac [00:14:00] will be open. And so I went down to the Lilo rooms. Um, and I used to be a member, and I used to be a helper, but I'm not even a member. Now. I'm and I think that's perhaps because I'm in a book group of lesbian women. Uh, and we will swap books all the time, So I don't feel the need to capture the lesbian library to get books, But I must say it was It's a delightful room that they're in now. It's just lovely and very light and airy and and welcoming. And I was delighted to hear from them that they're taking, [00:14:30] um, now taking books up to the lesbian potlucks up the coast. They've been doing that for two times. Otherwise, I would have known because I was there the last, the third last time. But, um, yeah, so I suppose Yes, I suppose I do social things with the community now, but I'm not doing anything political. What about broader politics, though? I know you were. I was very active in the 19 seventies. I was, yes, in the very active in the Labour Party. I mean, I was on the New Zealand Council and the Women's [00:15:00] Council and the Policy Council, and I stood twice, Uh, but the parliament, Yes, I've forgotten that 78 and 81 in Hamilton in 81. It's not the kind of thing that I would ever forget. That was where the game was stopped. And of course. And, um yeah, but I must say that, um, like many people in the Labour Party, um, I became a little bit disenchanted during the early eighties. And, [00:15:30] um, also, I was being, um I was climbing the ladder as a public servant and really, you couldn't be active politically. You couldn't be active politically. And I didn't know that I liked the Labour Party very much anymore at that stage. So I resigned at that stage and and haven't ever rejoined. And I'm not so I mean, I often toy with the idea that green might be the way to go. I always do end up voting labour, but, you [00:16:00] know, it's nice to have II. I couldn't not do that. I belonged. I feel so I so I haven't re What about pressure group politics, though? Are you involved in anything political at all? I was saying to somebody recently, the only worthy thing I do is give blood occasionally. It's sort of quite interesting. So I was thinking about legacies as well, Which is one of the things you know, that I discussed with people talking about You know what? We all, [00:16:30] uh we've got both the business of tidying up, which to some extent you're doing if you're getting rid of books and things. Um but also, you know, what do you want people to remember? You want to leave behind And yeah, not only money, but you know, how do people how are people gonna remember you? How do you want to be remembered? I suppose, Um I mean, I suppose my my most active political, uh, time was first in political parties [00:17:00] in the seventies and then, but also at that time, I was involved in women's stuff. And then I had women's jobs in the public sector in the early eighties. You So I was the, um, women's advisory officer at the now defunct Vocational Training Council. And that was and I suppose in many ways my proudest thing ever was the girls can do anything which I, um, ran during that time. And, um, I think that's a That's quite a legacy, although I must. [00:17:30] It's fascinating the way the phrases stayed on more and women can do anything. But it has taken a much wider meaning than it did at the time. At the time, I was talking about trade, trade, trade, jobs. But I think it I think it also at that time, those of us involved in that kind of work didn't realise how deep rooted, um, attitudes about men's work and women's work were. And [00:18:00] when things change, I think it's the middle classes who lead change. And so what really happened at that time was you started getting women lawyers and women, dentists and women, accountants and all that stuff that you didn't have when I was young. Uh, but you still haven't got many women, carpenters or plumbers or electricians many of those jobs which they could do perfectly well. They're a lot better paid than they even now, than the receptionists and secretaries and so forth that they do and still [00:18:30] do instead, certainly. And I think both men and women are socialised so heavily that the constraints are harder for women who want to do that harder than they were when we were young. We think certainly harder than they are in any middle class job. I don't know. It actually got worse. Yeah, I think I think in some ways it has Really. But, uh, yeah. So So those were the kinds of things that you know I'd like somebody to talk about at my funeral. And, um, yeah, [00:19:00] I'd like somebody to talk about the fact that, uh, you know, the lesbian community is I think it's a great community to be in. And, you know, I mean, I talked about those friendships already, and I think, um, you do make a lot of deep friends, and, um, I got the extra extra connection of sexuality, which perhaps gives a free song even with people that you've never been sexual with. Um, and that's a [00:19:30] nice thing to have as you grow older. I think, um, it sounds like you don't feel very much constraint on anything you want to do now, does it worry you in terms of possible constraints from health or ageing later? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I can concerned about, um whether, you know, the mechanical things get worse. I wouldn't be able to do as much walking and so forth as I as I like to, but I don't see that happening [00:20:00] very quickly. Um, I mean, you know, you just use various, um, ways of of dealing with all these things, and, um and I suppose that's what I do. I wrap wool around the toes that hurts. And things like that, you know, takes me longer to get ready for the for the for the day that it used to in the morning. And I don't think that's particular. Let something that's true to anybody who's older if you couldn't manage in your own home on your own, at [00:20:30] least because you live alone at the moment. If you couldn't manage that, have you thought about what, What your options will be or what you want them to be? No. I, I really haven't. I haven't considered that option. I mean, I know that a couple of my Children would be very happy to have me move in with them. And I'm not at all sure that I'd want to do that. Um, I mean, if it did ever come to that, that might be the time. I'd reluctantly [00:21:00] go to Auckland, where there are three of them to share me around rather than poor my poor one here who would be all on her own somehow looking after me. Um, on the other hand, if I had lesbian friends who were prepared to kind of flat, um, or be lodgers or something for perhaps a reduced rate and, you know, cook the dinner if I couldn't do that. Um, that would be another option. I mean, there's still other options to help you stay in the house rather than park [00:21:30] on Children. Indeed, we my partner and I talk about that around because there's quite a lot. What's the the local community? Do you have a Brooklyn community or isn't that necessary? It's a broad community, really. I mean, I suppose my well, I I'm very aware of your community is up the coast because a lot of my friends have moved up the coast and keep urging me to move, which I'm not going to do. Um, so I'd say, you know, my nearest and dearest in some ways, there couple of [00:22:00] lots up there, uh, I've got down here in the middle of town. Um, no I. I mean, there there are a few ducks in Brooklyn, but, um, we don't meet for drinks or dinners or anything like that. It's, um I go down the end of my street and I think, Oh, Robin will be there. She's right on the end and Vicky just down the road a bit and so forth. But we don't. You're pretty close to the city anyway, So if you want to go to the lesbian [00:22:30] drinks at or dinner or whatever. So when I said that, you know, I do social things I go to drinks at, um, occasionally. Um, I. I go to the pot. Luck at the coast occasionally. Um, I tend not to go to the singles dinners, but I I certainly, um, we have meals out. You know, my friends and I will eat out or eat at each other's places or have pot plugs or arrange dinners. So it is quite a social time. Yeah, [00:23:00] and that's good. It really it keeps you in touch. So, piano going back to piano seems to be one of the the things. Are there any other things that you want to do that you haven't done? Or were you yet? Well, you talked before about the fact that I had done all those oral histories a while ago. Um, and I and I and you're aware that I did write them up as a book? Um, at the time. And I did try. I tried, um, VUP. And after a long time, [00:23:30] it was at the time that one of their Nigel Cox was dying, and Fergus Barman was very involved with that. And I think that, you know, didn't get round to reading for a long time. Um, but anyway, I did finally get a rejection notice, which wasn't just a slip. He taken the trouble to write a letter. And when I read the letter, I thought, yes, I actually agreed with them. I thought the way I thought that it was boring. Basically, um, it's very hard for oral histories not to be boring. Uh, because [00:24:00] either I remember reading the breaking. I don't know if this is true. We're looking to getting old. Never mind. It's interesting. Um, yes. Um, if you do, you either do it by which I had done, um, by decades. And what happened to all the people I've looked at in the decades and why being lesbian might have made them different from other people in those decades. But that was confusing to the reader. I think people had to keep flicking back to see who the hell I was talking about or you do it one [00:24:30] by one. And some of the, um, some of the tape recordings really didn't allow that wasn't enough material on them. And also, um, I think that gets boring. I read that book about the lesbian nuns leaping the wall, and after about Chapter three, I thought, Oh, God, more of the same and didn't even finish it. And there's been a couple of others like that, too, so that's not the way to do it. And then two or three years ago, somebody suggested to me you could do it by themes and perhaps take one woman to illustrate this theme and just [00:25:00] refer to the others. And I thought that that's one way that it might work and I should get back to it. It's just the thought of redoing it. But every now and again, um, I have a couple of hours free time, and I think I really should look at that. And I think, Oh, God, I need to do the garden or I haven't done the ironing for six months. So it would be a shame for the thing to be lost altogether, though, other than the original tapes, which I know will be available eventually, Yes, would [00:25:30] you contemplate putting it up electronically even if you don't change it? or somebody suggested that to me. In fact, I think that they, um Jenny Barclay said to me that Pat has done that recently with a book published and could and could perhaps, you know, guide me. And I said, Well, if you know, if it's boring as a book, it'd be boring as an online book. And if I can, I guess what I'm saying to you, Prue, is that at some stage I do actually want to bite the bullet and [00:26:00] redo it. And and I could either redo it that way and still make it fairly well. It's, you know, the kind of it's not academic because but it's more nonfictional. Or I could do it in a more conversational way and put myself in it more what was happening for me and what was happening for lots of people. The only thing is that I, um, saw the light rather late, rather late. I remember when I was doing that book. Um, [00:26:30] I there was one woman I was really impatient with as I was, you know, transcribing and thinking about her life was like, for goodness sake, couldn't she have realised a bit sooner? And then I realised actually that she was a little younger than me when she finally came out. Well, of course, that's, uh, that's back to the, um, born or maid or political coming out. We don't all have the same experience. I think we do. Absolutely not. But I sometimes think that you you take, [00:27:00] you make up your life's history according to what's happened later that you know, if I hadn't, um, ever discovered my lesbian as my guest. Um, because I certainly had the opportunity to earlier when I was still married and living in Hamilton, Um, I would have had a different life, his life story about myself. You. Some incidents become more important when you reflect on the [00:27:30] in the in the light of what's happened later, you know, And I can now think that Oh, yes, why? I was keen on very soft me in it when I was at university and young and they never had, you know, they were always like they're always beardless and and smooth skinned and quite young looking is because it wasn't really. I was interested in all that kind of stuff, and I would never have thought of that, you know, we would all rewrite our histories at different at different [00:28:00] times According to what happened at that time. People talk about, you know, novels and non-fiction and almost all non, even nonfiction is perspective, and oh, well, I hope you do do something with it anyway. So So I guess that could be my one political thing, but I Well, I would like to, because actually, there's been virtually nothing done on a on A. In a way, it was a about a community. It was about women all in a in Wellington. And they [00:28:30] weren't They were certainly not in the same class and not even in the same friendship group. But there were links between all of them. Um, and even if they didn't know them, I mean, it was quite amusing to me as the oral historian to think of what had happened to somebody who who was being talked about as having had an affair with somebody early on. And, you know, I knew what had happened to them, and they didn't kind of stuff but the family True stuff again. Yes, yes, Absolutely. Um, but, um yeah, so I and, [00:29:00] um I mean there was There was one about a working class community in the States. And then there was a book by somebody else in the States called older lesbians. And she was so was so imprecise. It made me very cross. You didn't know how old they were. Um, it was just not very well done, I thought. And I thought, you know, at a different time, I think even the book that I did do boring. As as as some aspects were, I think it would have been published if it had been in the States and 10 years earlier. [00:29:30] Uh, I remember the paper you gave on it. Which Yes, yes. Well, I mean, what What I discovered was interesting, I think. Absolutely. Yeah, Well, um, we're nearly there. I just want one more thing, because you you talk as though you know, you're hardly being political at all now, But, um, before we put the tape on, you talked about, You know, um, the only thing about when we go it's so annoying. You want to know what's going to happen about climate [00:30:00] change, for example? So you've got you've obviously got political interests still Well, I forget about the planet. Political environment, political. It's all linked. Absolutely. So indeed, Yes. Oh, I am I. I am interested, and I'm I'm very distressed at some of the things the current government's doing so distress as I may yet become politically political again. Um, I mean, I just cannot believe that silly merger that is being talked [00:30:30] about. I was delighted to hear that they've changed their mind on, um, you know, the merger between Force that even put housing in with with, uh, economic development. Um, it doesn't take into account all kinds of things that we gone back on. The fact not be quite so still 100 and 50 but, uh, and not good. But, uh and, um, yes. And just the cavalier way that, well, [00:31:00] that they're treating the environment and all sorts of things, actually. Oh, and it also just before he resigned Nick Smith's stuff about, um, local government. So they're not allowed to do anything for the cultural social environment, or I think, excuse ridiculous. But they can do libraries. They can do this, they can do that. They are those things. I suspect it's more cosmetic than real. But I hope so. But it's still just the rhetoric around. It is appalling [00:31:30] to get you going again. I might bring that Green Party membership. You indeed? Well, it's lovely to hear that far. And it's lovely to talk to you, Lois. Thank you very much. Thanks, bro.
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