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My childhood from the age of one onwards was in, uh, Tanzania, as it's now called. But it was in those days, Tanika and then, uh, from my teenage years were in in Scotland. So what? So what school of schooling did you have? Good question. Well, the schooling in Tanika was pretty extraordinary. As you can imagine, this this was during [00:00:30] World War Two, and I mean a remote outpost of the Empire. It wasn't really able to command, um, a set of very good teachers. However, they did their best, and, uh, it was quite chaotic, but I did learn something. So at what point in your life did you realise you were gay? Um, I think at the onset of puberty, [00:01:00] it's I mean, it only dawned on me slowly, and I can't say that there were would have been any particular point when, uh, I there was a sort of, uh, you know, a bright light suddenly switched on. Oh, that's what I am. So there were any gay issues arising from your the jobs you had ever not. Not that I'm aware of, [00:01:30] um, in the sense that I was just accepted for who I was, um, And what people could make what they liked of that they didn't I. I didn't let everybody know I was gay, But quite a few people either guessed or ended up knowing, and that didn't cause any trouble, right? You had you had interviews with a psychiatrist at once in your life, didn't you? Can you tell me about that? Well, [00:02:00] um, this is by the time I was getting really quite troubled by being gay, um, and I had sort of moved away quite quickly from the kind of religious attitude to, uh, being gay the sort of punitive it's forbidden, Uh, and was interested in and a little inclined to accept the medical model that it was some sort of psychiatric illness. [00:02:30] So I thought right, Well, I'll go and see a psychiatrist, and, uh, he was a very kind man who agreed to see me and, uh, but was sort of Freudian. And so there were long sessions of free association, and I was not very good at that. Um, I don't know how you what being good at. It means, but but, uh, I [00:03:00] was pretty sure I wasn't. I think I was a very uptight and inhibited, young fella, and not really able to free associate easily. Um, and I think my interpretation of this may be wrong, but I think it towards the in the end, he got fed up of me, thought, Well, I'm never going to get anywhere with this fellow. He was, of course, trying to cure me. Which it was a mistake on his part. Uh, and as far as he was concerned, you know, it [00:03:30] was going nowhere. So he thought, Well, why don't I offer him LSD? That might disinhibit him a bit. And so I had four LSD trips which you haven't forgotten about. No, I have not. They were wonderful and did Did it teach him? Did he learn anything about after the end of that? Uh, I left his care. I was grateful to him. [00:04:00] I mean, he had he tried to care for me, and he had done his best. But I think the only benefit I obtained from it all was apart from knowing what an LSD trip was like, um, was that I'd had to get up and go to do something rather than just wallowing around and increasing levels of self pity. Or so you must. You must have confirmed in your own mind then that that gayness was all right. Was that round? About [00:04:30] that time I stopped worrying, I thought, and in particular, I stopped worrying partly because I happened to be reading some Freud. And, uh, I read a letter Freud had written to obviously a gay man's mother and his mother had written to Freud. And, uh, Freud said, stop worrying about it. You know, um, there been lots of gay people in history. [00:05:00] Um, there's nothing wrong with them and just let him get on with life. And your Freudian man tried to. He did? Yes. So there's a paradox there. He maybe hadn't read that letter. Maybe not. No. So are you. Are you currently in a stable relationship? How long have you been in that? Um, I think about eight years, right? And as as you're getting older [00:05:30] as you without a so-called nuclear family present, does it present any problems? I think it does. Yes. Um, you see, my family are all in Scotland, and, uh, I would be very happy if, in fact, they were here. Uh, but I but I'm not aware of any problems that I can't deal with, at least at the moment. So what support are you going to need as [00:06:00] you get older? Uh-huh. Ok, well, well, actually, um, can you tell us something about your health, then? All right. Well, my health, uh, has been in recent years. Uh, the only word I can say is chaotic. Um, I've got oh, what's it called? Temporal lobe epilepsy. And in addition to that, I'm developing Parkinson's [00:06:30] disease, on top of which I have what is laughably called benign, essential tremor. And there's something else I can't remember even what it is now. That's enough to be going on with that. That's going to create a few problems. I think it will. So how are you going to deal with it? I don't know. I haven't thought that II I do think about it. But then I think Well, um, whatever [00:07:00] happens in the future is so unpredictable, and the rate at which it happens is too unpredictable for me to to think. Give it any sensible thought. So like a lot of people, sometimes if the problem is too hard, you just don't try and solve it. Um, have you thought of where you're going to live when you can't live in your present house? Yes. Given that some thought, [00:07:30] um, we've my partner and I have been looking at retirement villages. Right. And I think it will have to be something along those lines. Uh, I can't imagine anything other than that, at least being available in contemporary New Zealand. What sort of place are you looking for? And or I'll I'll broaden that a little bit. Do you? Would you Would you look for a gay friendly one? Would you look for a gay run one [00:08:00] if there was a gay run Run? Um, uh, yes, I I Well, I'd be interested to have a look at it. I I I'm quite interested in an initiative that seems to be developing for, uh, a a gay retirement environment. Um, I can't help feeling that will be a very difficult thing to unscramble, because there will be [00:08:30] a lot of problems. Yeah, um, and maybe a gay friendly one would be more significant. And I think from my observations anyway, that they all the people who have shown us, um, villas or flat or apartments or whatever, have not better to deny it, that we're obviously a gay couple that hasn't concerned them at all. I think what would probably [00:09:00] be more likely to happen is that some of the other elder elderly people would be living in the past and might might be a bit hard to handle. Yes, this could be interesting, couldn't it? There is apparently a gay, um, and Lesbian Retirement Village either being built or, uh already built in in Victoria in Australia, so [00:09:30] but I don't know what the status of that is. But I think if if people are going to start looking for some sort of arrangement here, they'd be very wise to go over there and have a look. Yes, it would be interesting. Um, gay males and and gay ladies living together, too, because normally there's not a lot of lot of mix in New Zealand. No, uh, I can see why, too, Um, I, I would foresee two problems. One is that the women live much longer than men, [00:10:00] and so they would almost certainly develop. Uh, if it didn't start that way, they would almost certainly develop AAA majority of lesbian rights and well that I think might present trouble. Actually, there's a lot of times I think that that problem exists already there's more and more women than, um, Have you made a watertight will? In other words, that your your [00:10:30] family is, uh, couldn't overturn if they wanted to. Because you're gay. I hope so. I've tried to you. You you've had that in mind? Yes, Fair enough. But I It's my belief that neither my brother nor his offspring would even dream of trying to overturn it. But people do behave very strangely. Unfortunately, it does happen, doesn't it? So you've [00:11:00] You're doing the best to provide for your future. You've probably done that all your working life. Actually, I think I'm quite comfortable. Ok, um, if you were suddenly single, what would you do? Oh, I can't answer that. I think I would, uh, I've always felt, uh, this was something my sister, uh, taught me. If that's the right word, uh, that the the best compliment you can pay, [00:11:30] Uh, a dead partner is to in in due course, uh, form another partnership. Ok, um, you know, you do get people who sort of maybe women more prone to do this than men. I'm not sure but who Who feel that if they would be betraying the previous relationship if they formed another one, and so they never do. But I, I don't think that's the case at all. I think it's [00:12:00] a compliment to the previous relationship if you enter another one in due course. So I suppose I would want, uh, to find somebody else but it. But, you know, at the age of 75 Yes, your choice is restricted. Your options are OK. What would you What would you change in your life if you could? I think I would have [00:12:30] preferred a different career. Really? Yes. I don't mean not medicine, but, um, the specialty I would most like to have done is the one that in fact, would apply to me now. And that is neurology. Paradoxically, um but but to do I did did look into it. And the option I was given was to go to London [00:13:00] to Queen Square Hospital for nervous diseases. I think it used to be called and study neurology there. And I. I didn't really want to go back to Britain. We're talking about moving countries. You you were offered a job in Melbourne. At one stage I talk about that, um, and your reasons for not not I. I did part of my training as a specialist in [00:13:30] in the the Children's Hospital in Melbourne and I loved that job. It was very good, and I think I was good at it. Um and perhaps the confirmation of that is that I was several times offered a senior post there. I thought very hard about it, and I knew that I would be happy in the job and I wasn't. I was unafraid of that. [00:14:00] But I think once some staff members at that in that era, this is the early seventies twigged that I was gay then A lot of these, um, very good, but very ambitious hospital. I mean, hospitals filled with very ambitious people. There would be, uh, almost certainly that would be used. [00:14:30] Um, in a variety of ways, I did know somebody there who was gay. And, uh uh, I remember him being talked about in a very derogatory way. I thought, Well, I don't want that. So that's why you turn those jobs because I was not because I didn't want the job. So were there any other instances where you didn't accept something or didn't do [00:15:00] something because you were gay? Not that I can think of. No, Uh, I didn't let other than that. I didn't let being gay, uh, interfere with my career. Then what's what? How different was your life before the homosexual law reform bill was passed? Well, in fact, not different. Um, I mean, it was a relief to have it over and done with, and, [00:15:30] uh, but I really from the beginning of adulthood decided that I wasn't going to let being gay. Um, harm my personal life. Uh, I'm I'm a domesticated sort of guy, so I like long term relationship and I. I didn't think that I was going to let that get in the way. It [00:16:00] whether it caused any harm to me or not, I have no idea. And I wouldn't know. I would have turned out to be a lovely fellow. Anyway, you.
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