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I was born in 1931 in Otago and spent, um all my life in Otago until I finished university in 52 um, and then went to Auckland for teacher training, Um, and more or less of, uh, and stayed there for quite a while. Teaching then moved around the country in various places. Fielding, um, [00:00:30] then back to the again. And, uh, then after marriage, moving to other places growing up in the 19 thirties and the 19 forties. Were you aware of kind of homosexuals or nothing? Nothing. Looking back, I can see it, but no, nothing. So what? Looking back what? What? What can you see? I'd see my interests, um, [00:01:00] was certainly not with girls. Uh, I very seldom went out with a girl. And if I had an occasion which demanded a partner, Um, and I just put that down to shyness. Uh, I didn't know how to manage that. Uh and so on. Um, was it ever talked about, like in the family or was never talked about anywhere? It was so completely not a forbidden subject. It was just not not [00:01:30] a subject at all, and and of course, it was going on, but, uh, those of most of us didn't know. In fact, I would say that 90 95% of the population didn't know. So when did you know within yourself That that something might be up? Probably not until I was in my thirties. Yeah, my thirties. You know, after I was married. Yeah, I had no consciousness of it until then. [00:02:00] And what happened? Oh, just, uh, gradually, I realised that I was in the wrong place and, uh, not unhappy, but it wasn't quite the place I expected it to be. And, um, just developed gradually from there and a little bit of exploration here and there. And until I realised what was what did you feel when you started having those feelings? Did you feel kind of like torn? Was this something [00:02:30] that you kind of reacted against or, uh, yes, I guess it was the same sort of feelings that, um uh, young guys have when they start masturbation and believe that it's evil. Yeah, those same sorts of feelings that, uh uh, the moment of pleasure was great, but the the, um afterwards, Yeah, because you had been quite quite [00:03:00] a bit of your life up until that point had been quite involved in the church. Well, only, um well, only from late teenage years. Yes. And then on to, um when I went into the ministry, tell me about that. Oh, that just sort of developed as I got involved with a youth work in the church as as a as a member of youth groups and so forth Gradually, that's where it went. And I decided [00:03:30] that's where I wanted to go. So for you was I mean, did did you ever feel conflicted, or was it just a just a natural kind of progression of of finding out who you were? Well, it was both. It was both. Yeah, it was a natural progression. Plus, there were conflicts after, uh, my, um, being in the ministry of the church and being married and being a parent and so forth and so on. And having been a secondary teacher as well, all those things were [00:04:00] contra to where I was going. Can you describe for me what it was like? Um, having all of that, like, you know, uh, a wife and family and the church and then also on the other hand, thinking that you may be gay. Um, well, it was possible to keep the two separate. Um, but more and more, [00:04:30] um, I resented the church for its attitude, and I spoke quite openly about the church's attitude, even though I wasn't, uh, out or anything, Um, both in the parish and in the, um, National Assembly of the Church in the Presbytery and so forth. And it was the time of the homosexual law reform. Then, uh, which was, um uh, well, it, uh, for several several years before that. [00:05:00] Of course, it was a a hot topic in the in the church. Yeah, um, my marriage, We managed it in the marriage. Uh, as far as our relationship was concerned, I mean, the marriage was a The relationship was a good relationship. So So it was actually talked about in my relationship for a while when it first manifested itself. And when I fell in love with someone. Yes, but after [00:05:30] that, um, it was agreed. We wouldn't discuss it. It was That was out of concern for my for my wife. My wife. Can you describe what it was like? Kind of living? Those 22 kind of lives. There's always a fear of being discovered. There was always a fear of, uh, transmission [00:06:00] of sexual infections. Um, those were the two major fears, and there were fears rather than guilt. I didn't feel terribly guilty. Um, about any of that. Um, I'd, um, long before that resolved the the biblical questions, uh, in my favour, um, which I still believe with the right interpretations. [00:06:30] And they were supported by, um, through the through my theological training, though, um, the professors also, um, taught that those comments in the Bible were misinterpreted. Um, and they were interpreted against today's background instead of against the background of the of the day, and that there are very different reasons for the prohibitions and biblical times, [00:07:00] and they weren't moral reasons. They were national, um, survival reasons, because Israel just had to keep up their birth rate and otherwise they wouldn't survive. So that was the reason behind their reasoning. A lot of the history that's been told or that you can access is about people that were kind of, um, kind of out, um, things like gay liberation in the sixties and seventies, you know, that you can. Actually, [00:07:30] people were happy to be out, and they were very political. But I'm guessing there's a there's a whole lot of stuff happening that is a lot quieter. Oh, yes, yeah. I mean, the the public face, the there are two public faces. I think there was the, um, what you might call the flamboyant, um, either flamboyant man or flamboyant, Uh um, Queens, um, [00:08:00] Queens that side. But there's also the the side of those who are working seriously for for change. Um, led by, you know, such people here in Auckland as Tony, Kavi and Brett, she and all those people, and they were before my time of involvement at all. And although I knew both of them very well, um, it was, after all, the turmoil had been, um, gone through. And can you paint [00:08:30] a picture, um, of from your own point of view of what, perhaps the sixties seventies were like in terms of of being, um, a gay man. That wasn't necessarily kind of out. Well, I think for most, the, um, the only avenue of activity that seemed to be available was what the British called cottaging. [00:09:00] Um, and uh, in one or two. Um, well, I'm just not sure. When West Side began getting of the sauna thing, um, backstage, of course, was a It was back there as well. Um, not that I knew anything about it. I'd heard about it, and that's all. I never went there or anything. Um, and yeah. So it's, uh, [00:09:30] I. I really had absolutely no involvement with the community until the, um, HIV issues. And when you say cottaging is that, um that's kind of the toilet Boxing. Yeah. That was the only place to go, uh, to meet, uh, that you had any chance of meeting the like people. How would you know where else to go? And those who were who had been out fully to themselves and so forth [00:10:00] earlier, they formed, uh, groups, small groups, and a lot of them were sort of dinner party groups and those sorts of things. And, uh, lots of well known people belong to those. Yeah, but I didn't discover those not much later at that time. What kind of language was around? Um, gayness. You know what? What kind of words were being used to describe somebody who was gay. Um, I see I never came [00:10:30] across that because, um apart from a few general ones at at school and those sorts of things and faggot and, um see, even Homo wasn't used, um, where that was used a little bit, but I think faggot was the main one that was used. But, you know, memory dims and being being used in Probably not a pleasant [00:11:00] way. Oh, no, no, not at all. And of course, it depends what circles you're in. I mean, some circles you can use out with each other, and nobody's offended you. You know that. It's it's, um And, um, I was watching a television thing last night about racism and the British police force and a and a black woman policeman being charged with racism because she said to one of her black colleagues, Come on, hurry up, you lazy nigga. And that they sort of knew each with each other, that it was just [00:11:30] a sort of a a along, and somebody reported it as serious. And yeah, so it was that sort of thing. And, uh um, So I guess I avoided a lot of that. Yeah, And yet just thinking now in my teaching because I was teaching in the area of sexuality. Um, yeah. Just beginning to think when when I started that it must have been a late [00:12:00] eighties, I think. Oh, no. It was at the time of, um of the HIV thing. Yes. And so we explored a lot of that stuff in class. And that's where, uh, most of it sort of came from the kids because of the way I taught. They brought that sort of stuff up and we put it up, and then we explored it and its meaning and so forth. And when you say teaching, is that what secondary school or yeah, 3rd and 4th form back in the seventies, did [00:12:30] you find that your thoughts were in conflict with church teachings? Yes, but not biblical teachings. And the two are really quite separate. Um, and more and more. I I withdrew from Christian belief, um, that I felt that a huge amount of it was rubbish. Um, theology, particularly, and and church politics [00:13:00] and so forth. Um, biblical things. No, I I've always held the Bible is an amazing book, and, you know, and, um and interpreted, uh, openly It's got a lot, a lot to say, but, um no I. I gradually be beginning to reject the church. In fact, all organised religion altogether still, and reject it completely in today. Greatest evil the world has ever known. Um, [00:13:30] responsible for more human suffering, I think, than anything else in the world. And it doesn't matter whether it's Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or anything else. Or, um, all the pagan religions of Africa. They're all the same. They're all about power. Wasn't there a point, though? In the seventies, I must have read somewhere. Where were you In a church type workshop and [00:14:00] you suddenly kind of had quite a discovery. And, well, I don't know, but I had a discovery, but I was able to announce that discovery. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, uh, but that was part of the, um, know the encounter movement, which came into New Zealand from America through the church. And I think the Anglican church started. And then it came into the other churches and we were, um there was a big [00:14:30] group of us who were very active in it, and we did it started in workshops and then we began to develop workshops of our own and so forth, and that was hugely liberating. And, uh and to me, that was the real church. Can you tell me about that experience that that that workshop, Uh, just that one of the things in those workshops were to design exercises which would help people to, um, [00:15:00] communicate to open themselves to other people to take risk. And, um, one of my one of the guys who trained with me in the theology he designed this one called the Pyramid, and it was not quite sure when it was, but it was in the time of the debate about homosexual law reform. In fact, it might have been after that because the question [00:15:30] he asked was what people's attitudes were and participation was in that development. And he and he built up layers in this pyramid because I didn't do any of them until there was only one place at the top. And so that's, uh, that's where I placed myself and was able to say, and And the support I received from every single one in that group was just amazing. Uh, even though some of them were quite conservative [00:16:00] Christians, but they were all exploring Christians, and that was a big thing. So was that the first time you had kind of publicly kind of come out? I think it probably was. Can't think of any earlier time. And I guess I came out because the ethos of that group was that what happens when the group stays in the group? So I felt safe enough to do to do that. And did that happen? [00:16:30] Did it stay in the group? Uh, as far as I know he is. Certainly there were no repercussions from it. And how did you feel after after doing that? Uh, it was very liberating. Yeah, it was, uh, to begin with a few fears that it might go elsewhere. Although, I don't know, they worried about that at that point, I think probably I felt so completely safe, um, and nurtured that, uh, because two or three of the guys came to me afterwards and were talking, [00:17:00] and they were those straight guys and they they were expressing their support and their and and wanted to know more about what it was all about and and so forth. It was quite quite an experience. Um, you left the church in 1976. Why was that? I no longer believed, and I was very angry about the church's attitude to the homosexual law reform. Um, and, uh, or to the [00:17:30] whole, that whole movement of developing that was developing, um, and that the the church was going backwards in terms of openness. It was retreating all the way, and it left a lot of us stranded on the shores as it were. We just couldn't participate in that and just walked out. Did you feel yourself with any other kind of spirituality or or or religion? [00:18:00] Um, one of the views I have a religion is that it's a crutch for people who are, uh, are not whole or not. Well, once you become whole, you don't need the crutches. Throw them away. And so that whole process of knowing who I was was actually becoming whole. I no longer needed mhm and found it was a hindrance to being whole. [00:18:30] You mentioned just before about HIV and AIDS. And I'm just wondering, when was the first time you heard of AIDS? Must have been there very, very early eighties. Just general news, I think. Or maybe you've read about it in time or something like that. Um, yeah. And of course, it immediately resonated with me as, uh, concerning me. Um [00:19:00] and so I guess I was I was also looking for some way of becoming part of who that was part of who I was wanting to be involved in something and to meet others like me. And this was one way of doing it. Um, so there was, um there was some self-interest in in that side, but also concern on the other side about what was happening. So what was being established in New Zealand? [00:19:30] I mean, when you say you wanted to be a part of what? Well, I think I'm trying to think now. I think it was probably Ray Taylor when he came back to America and set up the system. And I think they are calling for volunteers and people to help train volunteers. And I felt that with my inner inner south and with the expertise I had, [00:20:00] uh, then that was something I might be able to do. And that was a thing. But I can't quite remember exactly how it happened. Can you just explain what the shanty system is? It? It was set up in San Francisco as a a support system for people with HIV and, um, and based on on on, buddy, Um, uh, a trained person trained in buddy would be budded up with someone who was HIV [00:20:30] positive, and we trained quite a lot of people here in Auckland in that but of course, a lot of them got, uh, lost energy because there was no one to Buddy. They weren't that at the time, there were very, very few cases, and most of them were guys who came back from overseas. Um, and so it took quite some time, and I think we we probably lost 50% of the people we trained because of there's just nothing to hold them. So [00:21:00] the the kind of shiny principles became, uh, what incorporated into the This is the aid support network. So that's Ray Taylor and Bruce. Can you describe for me what it was like being a part of, um, AAA new group, A support group? Um, where you may have, you know, um, kind of gay people and also their straight allies. Well, that was part of the reason, of course, why I went there because it was a group of of other [00:21:30] gay people. Um, to begin with almost all gay men. Then a few, uh, straight women particularly, came in, Um, not many lesbians. Very few, in fact, at that stage. And, um, so that's I guess that was the driving force for me, because this was an opportunity to get into something that had some standing, Um, wasn't just sex and had, um, [00:22:00] opportunity to meet a lot of other gay people in a normal natural way, which I'd never had before. So that was a motivating factor. Um, and I was supported, and that was by my wife. She she was very supportive of that, and and she became part of it as well. Can you describe for me what, uh, one of those meetings was like, the training meetings? Um, the it was interesting to me, too, because it was part of [00:22:30] the, uh, encounter movement. It came out of the encounter movement. So it was the same sort of setup which I was used to in our group in our church groups, um, where people were able to open. They're able to challenge each other without being upset or too upset. Um, and some of the things that were revealed by individuals in those groups were just unbelievable. And they'd never, ever told anyone else about [00:23:00] them, ever. Um, so So, yeah, they were quite And they were very emotional. Uh, very, um, warming. Very supportive. Um, very, um, positive. Um, yeah. And, um and it it meant that they were able to deal with their own fears and therefore were able to go and support other peoples in their fears. [00:23:30] And were you saying that your wife was also part of she trained in in one of those groups, one of our biggest ones. We had about 40 members in that particular group, including a nun. So what was it like for you being in that group with your wife talking about these kind of things? It was fine, because we I mean, we were always pretty communicative anyway. And but in her, one of the things starting [00:24:00] point in those, um, meetings, because they they usually began with the weekend. And the starting point was what was called the circle. And everybody went around and induced themselves and said why they were there and so forth and so on. And that would be some of that would be just unbelievably deep. And, uh, and there'd be lots of tears and lots of laughter. And it was Yeah, And remember that particular group we took the whole of the first day just [00:24:30] doing the circle because it was so big. And there was so many, Um, and there were several guys in that who revealed for the first time that they were HIV positive. They never revealed to anybody else. Not even there. I don't think some of them not even the medical system, but they knew they were at the time. Was there a test for HIV? I don't think so. What? It was It was very, uh, complicated. And it wasn't done in New Zealand. Anything [00:25:00] had to be sent to Sydney to be done. What was the life expectancy at that time of somebody with AIDS? Well, it varied, um, and it depends where they contracted the virus, because there are different. Um um, modifications of the virus and some were very virulent. Um, the Sydney one, for instance. I mean, guys could die in six weeks from infection from the first infection. And, um, whereas [00:25:30] others, it was a much slower process, uh, and depended also on the individual's immune system and so on. Yeah, so it it varied greatly. And, of course, it became longer and longer as medications came in. So in those training sessions, what were they saying? In terms of, um, the kind of scope of the the the kind of, um, AIDS issue in New Zealand, you know, Did they Did they say there were gonna be hundreds infected or what? [00:26:00] What were they saying? There was a lot of fear that would be very widespread. And, um and of course, many felt that it was going to spread into the general community. Most of us in those groups said no. It was unlikely to do that. Uh, because, um, gay men tended to keep their sex within the gay community. And so we said, You know, in many ways, the gay community is holding that out of the general, uh, environment in New Zealand. [00:26:30] Whereas in other countries like Scotland, where it was transmitted mainly through, uh, drugs, uh, drugs, um, or Africa heterosexual stuff. Um, the uh, New Zealand general community was pretty safe, So Yeah, there was, um there was a fear in our own community, of course, particularly as guys began dying and, uh, the number of funerals you went to and so forth. [00:27:00] You were saying that, um quite a number of the volunteers kind of left after a while just because there weren't that many people. It was hard to keep them motivated. And, uh, they'd been through the process, They understood it. And we used to say, Well, you know, even if they don't stay, they're going to be better members of the community for them for having done it. And therefore, we we weren't too worried about that. Um, sad perhaps to lose a friendship or in the group or whatever, but, um, yeah, [00:27:30] so I guess in the end, you're left not left. But you came down to a group of really committed, uh, people and many of those budded, uh, guys right through and my wife, buddy, two right through to their deaths. I've been saying network, and I'm just wondering how extensive was the aid support network in New Zealand? Well, manifestations of it appeared in another places. I think Ray had done quite a bit of travelling around. And [00:28:00] so Bruce and I know there was a group in Christchurch. There's a group in Wellington. There's a group in Hamilton, Um, and there are probably other small groups. He, um But they tended to be not as focused organised as the Auckland group, Um, except perhaps the Christchurch Group. Christchurch community is a strange community. It's it's there's no cohesion in it at all. [00:28:30] There's not much in Auckland, but there's far less in Christchurch. It was at that stage anyway. And was the network a, uh, kind of a government initiative or grassroots initiative was grassroots came entirely from Ray and Bruce, Um, and people like myself and Tony Hughes and Bob Harvey. Um, you know, strongly in support of that. And, um, I [00:29:00] was a doctor at um, no. Mike Pole was one of the doctors. The other doctor at um, Auckland Hospital. What was his name? Oh, Doctor, Yes, and things like that. And whereas in Wellington they had some horrific situations of guys going to hospital and the way they were treated and so forth here in Auckland, we never had that what kind of situations? Well, um, ambulance people and nurses would be dressed from, you know, head to toe in protective clothing [00:29:30] and all that sort of stuff. And, uh um yeah, whereas in Auckland they just took the normal gears. And, uh, we say, you know, it should be the normal care that you give everybody. If you're not giving that to everybody, you're not doing your job properly. So and quite a lot of, um of the nurses at Auckland Hospital were were just amazing. And one or two of them came into our network groups and, uh, did some training there and [00:30:00] part of that. So when did the government get involved? Not until the establishment of the AIDS Foundation. It was largely the work I think of, um, Tony Hughes with probably Kate Shepherd. No, Kate, not Shepherd. Kate, Lesley God. And, um, who else was involved? Oh, Bob Harvey was involved in that quite strongly as well. Yeah, but Tony [00:30:30] I I see him as a Saint Paul of Christianity because Christianity would never have survived without Saint Paul, it would have just disappeared. And Paul's and Tony is the same. He's the one that has been there and held things and held things in a way which people listened and respected. And he's done an amazing job, just superb, and just explain who Tony Hughes is because, oh, Tony Hughes is the [00:31:00] well. He was a biomedical researcher, and I'm not sure what his title is now. But he's, uh, I, I would say, Probably two IC of the, um AIDS Foundation. Um, and he's been there now what, 30 years, perhaps more, and just has done an absolutely tremendous job, very quiet in the background. He's so thorough in his work, but people can't question [00:31:30] it. Um, if they try, they soon shot down on flames. And, uh, and no histrionics or anything like that. Just solid, uh, understanding. Skillful. Yeah, the highest respect for what is the difference between the Aid Support Network and the AIDS Foundation? Uh, the Aid Support network in some ways felt that the foundation came in and took [00:32:00] over and pushed AIDS. Uh, the aid support network aside and there was, uh, some friction. Um, after I left the foundation and, um, Warren took over and there was some friction between the two, but it it died out and, uh um, and the same with the, um, gay line. There was a little bit of antagonism there as well as [00:32:30] as though the foundation was taking over and pushing everybody aside. Nobody else met. And there was a little bit of that feeling, Um, which was probably true to a certain extent. But, uh, yeah, I mean, the gay line, for instance, they staffed the AIDS hotline for years with absolutely no financial support from, um AIDS Foundation, even though it was official that they were doing it, Uh, that [00:33:00] sort of thing that, uh so, yeah, there was a little bit of, but it it never got out of hand. I don't think No, it's just transitioning and I. I correct me if I've got it wrong, But, um am I right in thinking that also, you know, you're going from a very much a volunteer based approach in terms of support to something like the AIDS Foundation, which was prevention campaigns. [00:33:30] And yeah, it's I don't know. There's that a little later now when I was director, I have no clue Now what the salary was. Can't remember. It was less than what I was getting teaching, but later it became quite high and there was a bit of friction about that. Um, and, uh um, and the the staff that were there [00:34:00] were quite highly paid and, um, some volunteers was a little bit of, uh, annoyance at that as well, Because, looking back, I think the foundation should have drawn the network in as part of the organisation. But they didn't. They shut, they shut them out, they took over their premises, um, took over their phone line, and just as though they [00:34:30] didn't exist. But then you were the first director of the Oh. So that happened after and the year that I was there. I mean, the looking back now, they didn't really know where they were going. Um, they were very inexperienced. And, uh, that was that came through. Yeah. It must have been quite a, um it must have been quite a stressful time in that, you know, mid eighties. You don't know where this is hitting. What you see from the US is that numbers [00:35:00] of death is just going up. And and here you are starting out in this new organisation. What was that like that? That was very clear and that that centred on turn again. The thing was prevention, there was no cure. So we had to prevent prevent it. The only prevention was the use of condoms right from the beginning, that was the message and put out and, um and even, uh, we bigger did a couple of big posters. I can see them very clearly [00:35:30] now. And even in those we basically said that oral sex was safe, which was way out of line with what everybody else was saying. And that was because Tony said no, this is a virus, and it does not travel that way. And his, in his understanding of it, was so accurate. Um and so right from the beginning, there was that sort of not that everybody believed that, but that was certainly there [00:36:00] and said that the only means of, um transmission was, uh, basically anal sex, unprotected anal sex. And apart from blood transfusions and things like that, you know, obvious things. But sexually, that was the only, um, dangerous activity. And they hammered that and hammered that and hammered that and still do. And it's, um, proved to be true because even though our figures have recently risen, as they have everywhere else [00:36:30] in the world. Um, our use of condoms in New Zealand is much higher than anywhere else. What was it like for you in that kind of mid eighties period? Like as as the first director of the AIDS Foundation. I don't. I felt I was put into that job willingly. Um, but no one really knew [00:37:00] how to organise it or what? What, what? Our role or what my role was? I wasn't really given a clear job description, and nobody else had a clear job description. So everybody was grabbing it. Parts of the job that they wanted and all that sort of thing. So, yes, it was. It wasn't, um It wasn't a comfortable experience, and it was nobody's fault. It just, you know, the nature of the beast of a new organisation in a an uncertain area. [00:37:30] Another uncertain thing at the time was, of course, homosexual law reform, which is 85 86. Did you do anything around law Reform? Apart from talking, I wasn't involved in the so-called movement. Um, because I was too busy with the with other things, and I can't stretch everywhere. And, uh, I'm just trying [00:38:00] to think Who Who were the front people here in Auckland. Brett Shepherd. Certainly. And Tony Kavi behind the scenes. Um, he provided a lot of the money, but he as he said to me one day, he said, um, I I left Brett to do the front work. I'm too miserable of a bastard to do that. You you've mentioned Britain, Tony a couple of times. Tell me about them. Well, they they've they owned the out [00:38:30] empire. Uh, start start with the West Side sauna and the Out magazine. And they had a very large mail order catalogue, Um, and their book shop and so forth. And I got to know them quite well because the gay line were, um, housed by them in the in the building and, uh, NZ Avenue. [00:39:00] So I got to know them quite well. And Tony's partner, John Kitty, uh, who has died fairly recently, and, uh, yeah, so I presume Tony is still alive. Although he should have been dead years ago. He he and Brett both contracted cancer prostate cancer around about the same time, and Brett didn't do his medications properly and died. And whereas Tony really battled and did everything [00:39:30] and, uh, still alive that, you know, 20 years later, um, so he's a He's a bit, but he's difficult. He's well known for being very, very difficult, but he just he he won't put up with bullshit of any sort and very direct. And he'll challenge anybody, uh, government council, anybody and, uh, he's a hoarder and that he hoards every piece of paper that comes in every document. [00:40:00] And, of course, when it comes to battling, he's got all the documentary evidence, so he won a whole lot of battles, but yeah, so from that point of view, he was he was good value. How did you get involved with gay line? And what is it? Uh, gay line was set up when 1972 I think is a, um, a telephone line that [00:40:30] it was set up for. Guys. Um, they could, um, contact talk set up by a couple of guys who first of all, put their own home telephone number in the Herald as a place that gay men and could contact. And this was, you know, in the early seventies, incredibly brave, really. To wonder the Herald. The Herald even allowed it. And so it developed from [00:41:00] there. And, um, I lived in a number of places after their home. Um, And when I first came to know it, I think I'd done some training for youth line in from this encounter movement stuff. And, um, one of the leading persons in it was a member of the staff at Glenview College who I was teaching, [00:41:30] and he got me involved. And, uh, firstly, to help with the training. And then, um um, got me to apply to be the, um the manager for the was there for 12 years, so yeah. Hm. I just want to divert justice from gay line just for a minute. And, um, you've just brought back up your secondary school teaching. And what was it like being a gay teacher in the [00:42:00] 19 eighties? I remember the first day I was there, Rob Grant greeted me, and I'd obviously met him somewhere. I didn't know and I thought, Who who's this person? And it gradually developed and so forth. And I'm not quite sure the process of becoming known at school [00:42:30] the staff knew. Don't think the first principle I had knew. But the second principle I had was Dave Norris, the, um, Olympic, um, usual Olympic athlete and an Olympic manager. Then he was fine. And then the next guy, he was fine with it as well. The board was OK. The staff were OK, but I wasn't out to the students. And, um, I just, uh, Rob Rob [00:43:00] Grant was out to the students, but, um, I decided it wasn't appropriate. And, uh and I found that boys who are looking at themselves and this, you know, wondering about themselves or, uh, they would come and talk with me rather than talking with Rob because they went to talk with Rob. It identified them, whereas if they came and talked to me, it didn't identify them. So [00:43:30] it's, uh yeah, it was. It was quite useful. And the and the work that I was doing, the subjects that I was teaching, it was, um that was part of it. Were you aware of any, uh, homophobia or anything like that at school? Oh, yes. There are some staff who were very anti. But as I said in my farewell speech, although I knew that there were a number of staff from particularly from their Christian point of view, were very anti but that they'd never shown me anything except respect that they'd [00:44:00] always treated me respectfully. And, uh, so, you know, that was, uh, quite something. And, uh, I think they respected the work that I was doing with the students. Uh, because I was part of the counselling team. Although I was doing most of it in in the classroom and, uh, you know, in an atmosphere of, um, developing their their personality and their self esteem and all that sort of stuff. So, during your [00:44:30] time, did you bring in, um, safe sex information? Absolutely. Yeah. Throughout the school. In what way? Well, in those classes, it was part of the class. Um, also, we developed a sexuality, uh, education programme throughout the school that I trained a number of the staff to, uh, to lead in, um, probably about 10 of them. And, um, that that was part of the curriculum of it. Um, HIV aids, [00:45:00] safe sex, etcetera, as well as all the other stuff. You know, it was very, very clear. We had a few parents who objected. Very few, actually, I think only about three. In the whole 12 years. I was doing it more 20 years. I was doing it, you know? So it was very few, and the students had the option of opting out of them. But most students didn't tell their parents because otherwise they knew their [00:45:30] parents would want to take them out. They didn't tell them. But for some years, we had parent meetings and put the curriculum before them. And three or four years and they there was never any objection. They all supported. And those the number who attended became less and less. So we we didn't take. We discontinued them. Yeah, legally, it was required to begin with at that time. It soon disappeared. [00:46:00] Heading back to gay line and your involvement. So what? What What did your involvement entail? What did you do? Everything I was employed for, uh, 23 hours a week, 20 hours a week. And I did about 60 and I did everything. I ran the office I staffed. I trained the volunteers. I staffed the, uh, the [00:46:30] both the hot of the age hotline and gay line through the day from 10 till five. yeah. Cleaned the toilets, everything. Yeah, I was the only one there. I did have some help. Um, in at various times, I got involved with the courts. And, um uh, particularly sue one or two [00:47:00] lawyers and police officers who were concerned about, um, people being entrapped for sexual activity and, um, getting them, um, either diver diversion, if possible, or community service rather than, uh um, anything else and they Quite a number of them came and did their community service at gay, Um, and also with, [00:47:30] uh, wins. And they they would come, come and and work there for six months or something. So those sorts of things, in order to get, um, some sort of help you say entrapment. So what What kind of year is that? And and what? What kind of entrapment are we talking about? Uh, particularly in the toilets, but not just I remember one guy who came to me and was sent to me [00:48:00] by, um, a police officer at the court. Um, he had appeared in court and then was remanded and so forth, and he sent them to me, and he'd been walking along the coastal walkway and this guy was walking behind him and sort of came alongside and talking. And, um, the guy suggested they go into the bushes and, uh, and as soon [00:48:30] as this, a man touched the sky turned out police officer and arrested him, That sort of thing. Um, and also, of course, in the toilets. There was lots of that in toilets. It was very unsafe. What kind of year are we talking? I suppose from the late seventies, early eighties, even after homosexual reform was still going on Still going on today. In some cases, there's some police officers who for [00:49:00] usually religious beliefs, uh, think that that's what they've got to do. How many volunteers did Gale have in the early nineties? We probably never had less than 30 and it could be up to 60. But the attrition rate was quite high. And so you had to continually train new ones, train new ones, and the attrition rate was, um, very, very seldom, because [00:49:30] of negativity, it was quite a change of life. Circumstances moving away, change of job, getting married, Um, whatever. Uh, so yeah, the attrition rate was quite high, but we never had any real difficulty getting volunteers, you know, lots of the other. I was on the community or organisation grant scheme committee. The cos and, uh, they say, oh, so difficult to get volunteers. How is it that you get so get [00:50:00] them so easily? And I used to say, Well, you know, our people are committed to their cause. Uh, but the real reason was because our volunteers worked in the evening, whereas theirs were through the day and it was very difficult to get volunteers through the day. So it was, um, we were lucky from that point of view. Well, not lucky, but the circumstances were good. And what kind of training did they get again? I use the same sort of training. Um, uh, the [00:50:30] encounter movements, you know, is still very strong in me and that sort of stuff on a personal level, but also a lot of work on communication, uh, particularly telephone communication, which is quite different, uh, from ordinary communication. And people will tell you more in 10 minutes on the phone. Then they'll tell you in two days, face to face. It's just they just it's all there. And in the [00:51:00] most embarrassing details um, and didn't matter whether they are straight or gay or anything. It was the same because they had the security of being anonymous. And we made sure that people knew that we did not have a, uh, an, uh, caller ID so service or anything like that. And, um so, yeah, and, uh, knowledge about HIV about sexual infections? Um, [00:51:30] yeah. And about general, the gay community and what was available. You had a very good database of what was available in the community. Um, yeah, because I'm guessing at that time, the Internet would have been like in its infancy. I mean, if you had the Internet, I think that side of it, the the personal communication side is not there, though. And they still want to talk to somebody. And often they ask him a question [00:52:00] about something, Uh, innocent as it were was really a testing thing to see. Can I go further and really open up? And so that those sorts of skills, um you know, for instance, I said, you know, the only starting words you should use are the WH words. Where how what? When? Which but never. Why? Because as soon as [00:52:30] you ask why? Why do you think that or why do you? Why do you do that? The person becomes offensive because they think that you're trying to force them to justify themselves. So that, and you should or or ought, Um, and so on. Well, I think you should do this. Um, So it was nondirective counselling, totally listening and guiding the listening so that it allowed them to explore the situation themselves and come to their own answers [00:53:00] and which they'd be much more likely to put into practise any that we gave them. I mean, we'd give them information if they wanted it, but their own personal answers were theirs. So those were the skills that they that they learned and and the the skills I wish everybody could learn over your time with gay line. Did you notice that the calls changed? You know, either the type of people or the type of questions? [00:53:30] Not really. And the coming out process is still the same for as it's always been. Hard for some easier for others. Um, so I don't think much has changed in that. Yeah, When you look at your own personal journey, how would you sum it up? It has it been hard, or is it easy? Is it? It's mixed. Very mixed. Yeah, There have been some bad patches, and they've been, but [00:54:00] I've never, ever being confronted with strongly negative attitudes or actions or, um, anything that's frightening or anything like that. I've never found myself rejected. Uh, because of it? Um, I don't know. No. Maybe some have just quietly gone away and leave me alone. But that's fine. [00:54:30] But I've never been aware of anyone ceasing their relationship with me because of it, and certainly not in my own family. So from that point of view, mine has been painful in many, many times, but reasonably OK can reasonably smooth. And, uh, you know, I look at young people today, many of them, and they're out from a very early age and, uh, and enjoying their support and [00:55:00] and mostly with, um, support from their families. Not entirely. But, uh, mostly, you still get those odd occasions moving into the two thousands and 2004, 2000, 2005, we get, uh, civil unions in New Zealand. The ability to have a civil union and you became a celebrant. Why? Well, I've been a marriage celebrant anyway in the church, and I thought, Well, this is something I could do could [00:55:30] do, and I'd like to do it, and it's, uh it could be fun. Um, and, um and I believed in the in the process. I thought, you know, we should grab it with both hands, and, uh, even if it wasn't perfect, it was at least a step in the right direction. And so, yeah, I just, um, did that because it wasn't very difficult because I'd been registered as a as a marriage celebrant. Anyway, although I'd given that up when I left the church. And so it was I knew [00:56:00] all about it, and it was wasn't a big step to do. And you say you move in the right direction? What? What? What does that mean? Well, that I I thought civil union was a bit of, uh, a bit of a cop out in some ways. But I could see that, you know, if we didn't take that, we weren't going to get any further at that stage. Although, of course, going back further as far as the age of consent was concerned. We actually, um the community, actually, um, uh, sabotaged that because [00:56:30] the the proposed bill didn't include equality of age. This is this is going back before the bill. Yes. There were two attempts. One by Vern. He was an MP from somewhere in Taranaki, I think. Yeah. And also the one by, um, was it the Warren? Yes. Yes. I think Martin Finney was involved in that somewhere as well. And, uh, neither of those [00:57:00] in included the age of consent. And so the the community with more or less withdrew its support from them, and so they fell by the wayside. Um, and it was only when Frans Bill came in with the age of consent being equal. Um, and even then a lot in our community didn't want that because they thought they'd never get it. That would the the thing altogether. So with civil unions was the same thing happening where people were saying Well, actually, this [00:57:30] is not a quality. We don't want this. And a lot of the women particularly were very strong about that. Uh, but when you looked at the detail, it gave us nearly everything that marriage gave us. And the only major thing was the adoption thing in the name and the name, Of course, Yeah, I couldn't care less about the name. Um, it's interesting because, [00:58:00] you know, the church is a marriage has never been a church. It's a it's a, um, it's a government law. If the church want it their way, they can do it for their people. That's fine, but not to impose it on everyone else. And so marriage has always been a legal thing right through the ages. It's been a legal thing, uh, for hundreds of years. So it's a legal thing we have to change. [00:58:30] Uh, we won't change the churches, particularly, and more the Muslim faith. They've still got 100 years to catch up on us. They'll they'll get there eventually. So we're here in, uh, February 2013, and the Lewis Wall Bill has passed its first reading in parliament Gone to select committee. They haven't quite yet reported back, and I'm thinking, What do you think the chances are of this marriage [00:59:00] equality bill going through? I think it's pretty clear it will go through with quite a good majority. Um and, uh, yeah, I think the time it's the time is right. And it it will, uh, I'm not quite sure where the question of adoption stands, because there's also the bill that is at Marion Street saying about adoption. Um, and I think it's on the back burner at the moment because Lewis is saying that, you [00:59:30] know, if her bill goes through, it includes adoption. It's all all the rights and privileges of marriage in adoption as one of those, uh, uh, rights and privileges. And I mean, they they they are gay men in New Zealand have adopted Children. Uh, it's stupid because a single gay man can adopt a child, but a couple can't. If one has Children, his partner can adopt those Children, but it's [01:00:00] so mixed up, it's crazy and it's it's unfair on the kids, and they should be given clear, equal status to anyone else. And how were your kids when you came out? Um, they were in their late teens. Um, the girls were fine. They both said independently, you know? So what we've known for years, um, the boys hadn't a clue. [01:00:30] Um, they took a little while longer to particularly my older son, uh, to come to terms with that, um, And now, I mean, they're just as likely to throw cheek at me about it as anyone else. I think I told you that when I got my queen service medal. One of my sons said, Oh, how appropriate. So you know that sort of thing? Yeah. [01:01:00] Now, that was 2005. The Queen Service medal. It sort of was based on the HIV thing, because that was what was acceptable for the government to give. But the community aspect was included as well. Uh, yeah, it was quite interesting how how it was done. And I still don't know who was responsible. I presume it was Chris Carter, but I haven't a clue. Um, but yeah, that was, uh, uh, pretty awesome. Really. [01:01:30] And the investiture was a very interesting experience with, uh, Dame Sylvia. Lovely lady. Yeah. Um, yeah. So it's, um Yeah, it was good to get that and, uh, feel that not just me, but the community had some, uh, recognition like that. And because I, I don't I don't think there was then anyone else who had been, um, SM [01:02:00] for that. I think Warren Warren before or maybe Warren? Yeah. It must be quite something to to be tapped on the shoulder. Absolutely. I. I was totally taken by surprise. Yeah, Yeah. There been a few things like that that have really, uh, take me, Um a couple of people, a man and a woman turned up at the office one day in there. They They said they were from the or own a trust or [01:02:30] something. And, um, they said, we we want to give you a recognition for your work. They said this is a financial recognition for you, not for the organisation. Um, it's for you personally. A check of $3000. Things like that have happened, which I just think Oh, it's nice. Yeah. 01 thing we haven't touched on that has actually been a part of your life for [01:03:00] for decades. You know, going right back to the eighties is the fifth season gardening group. Tell me about that. Um, I was trying to think today how I got involved in that. No, it was when I was with my partner, Peter, and I think it was Yeah, it was because we were both gardeners. Our garden was twice or three times in the heroic garden thing, Uh, [01:03:30] but before that, we'd been on the committee of the fifth season Garden Group and, um, the main, the main functions or the main things that does, uh, a visit. Monthly visits to gardens, usually a group of two or three gardens, Um, usually gay gardens, but not necessarily so. And, um the And then we had a coup couple of functions a year at Christmas function and midwinter function. [01:04:00] And that sort of the programme. And it's been it's been also in the on the edge of the heroic garden thing and sometimes being involved with sometimes just supportive. And, uh, it's always been a bit of unclear where the, uh, heroic gardens fits in between and and the fifth season. But it's really an ad hoc committee that exists year by year. Maybe. What do you get out of gardening? [01:04:30] Oh, it's gardening is I think it's a very spiritual thing, Um, and it allows you to completely forget about everything in the world and just dealing with what's there and the growth and the change and the beauty and all that sort of thing. Uh and you know, it's It's I find it very renewing. Mhm. And, uh, if I [01:05:00] often I will go out and, uh, I'll sort you know, we there and there and I pull it out before I know it six hours later. And I totally forgotten everything. Yeah, often things that I shouldn't have forgotten. Um, yeah, but yeah, it's it's it's totally absorbing, healing, very healing.
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