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Hi, I'm Miriam. And people often wonder why I was have been motivated to do the things that I have done. So today I'd like to talk a little bit about some of that motivation. Um, because, really, the the bottom line is I don't want people to be as as miserable as parts of my life have been. And to me, it was about education, About information. Um, I think information giving out collecting and giving out information [00:00:30] is perhaps the key to a lot of the work that I've done. Um, the the first thing that I remember was a trauma, and it seems like mostly it's easier to remember trauma as a very young child than anything else. And that's a bit sad because it stays with you for the rest of your life. My mother had to have a farm worker in the second. I was born during the Second World War. Why? She called me Miriam Edna. Two Hebrew names. When Hitler was killing every Miriam he [00:01:00] could find, I could never understand. Um, but when I was about 18 months old, she was attacked by the farm worker who tried to rape her and tried to smother me as I was screaming. And so I've always had a fear of the dark. And, of course, a fear of loss of breath. Not surprisingly, I'm an asthmatic. Um, and I suffered a lot from bronchitis as a child. So after that I, I went to school early. There were no other Children born during the district. During that time. All the men were away at war [00:01:30] and the men. And I do understand that man who attacked my mother, he would have been rejected by the armies as not fit to go overseas. He was young. He was then excluded from the great adventure as the men saw war as being an opportunity for overseas trip and etcetera. Um, so he would have been resentful, and, um and it would have questioned his manhood. So he would have been a smouldering heap [00:02:00] of resentment, something that I really came to understand when I worked with sex offenders in my time working in the prison. So then I, um I was fairly bright and and learned to read by myself when I was four, went to school at four and did get beaten up quite a lot at school because I was good at things and finished my work earlier than everyone else. So they were plotted along. So I was often given task by the teacher of teaching the other Children because it was a small country school. I grew up in Taranaki and [00:02:30] very small country area. And of course, we had blackout during the war and rationing and things like that. So that all added to a sense of restrictions and and fear. Um, when people are hanging up curtains because of something outside that you don't understand as a three and four year old, it embeds a sense of foreboding in you and and fear. Um, however, it hasn't stopped [00:03:00] me attacking things on a social level, which is probably, uh, important. And one of I've done a lot of work, I suppose, in the sexual area, and and I've always had a strong interest in sex and understanding how it functions. So it's not surprising that I first fell in love when I was about 10. I I'd always liked this girl next door on the next door farm. Um, I remember when I first moved into the district when she was four, and I gave her [00:03:30] my Dole, and I was a bit annoyed that she didn't really want to play with it. I thought it was a big sacrifice on my part. So, um, by about 10, I was, uh, totally infatuated with her, um, and got as far as trying to kiss her. Um, but not really understanding what I was feeling. And it wasn't until we were at high school and I menstruated and she laughed at my discomfort because I really [00:04:00] still thought I could marry her. But menstruation put a whole different thing. I was definitely a girl, and I wasn't about to be able to marry another girl. And I think the realisation I was very upset. I remember coming home on the school bus and she laughed at me, and I had never experienced that. This great feeling that I had for her just went poof out the window. It's sort of like it went out the bus window, and I thought, Gosh, is that what [00:04:30] happens? And so I trundled along at high school, starting to I'd started off really well and started to fail. Um, started to had a bad on the gym teacher carved her name on the trees around the gym, left my school certificate French exam early because I had the opportunity to be with the gym teacher by herself. Uh and so I only got 30% for school. C French. Um, the gym teacher was far more important, you know, on that day, [00:05:00] not having any idea of the future and what good school E Marks might have enabled me to do. However, I, um, just felt frustrated, Um, about the whole all my feelings towards females. And, uh, and when I was about, I was around about 14. I think my eldest sister was just before she left home, had been reading the dictionary. And [00:05:30] so I'd obviously heard the word homosexual and we had every man's encyclopaedia, a whole lot of volumes of it. And so I, uh, looked up homosexuality. And there I can still see the line that said that homosexuals had arrested development and, of course, in my naivety, I thought they were all short. And Colleen, the girl of my desires at that time was short, and Mary had been short, so I thought, OK, they must all be short [00:06:00] so I kept looking for short people. But I suddenly got a growth spurt and started to grow. And, of course, by the six of them I was one of the tallest in the school at New Plymouth Girls High School. And I just couldn't work out why I was so big. And homosexuals were supposed to be short. And I thought I was a freak, and I must be the only one in the world. And one day in despair, I saw a bottle of poison and drank it. At that point, I was a good a good singer [00:06:30] with a high range of voice. I love singing. Um, of course, burnt all my throat. Um, but it was a rash, impulsive act, and I obviously didn't want to die. I rushed to the fridge to get milk to try and calm the throat. I became a blues singer overnight. Um, my voice was husky for a long time. Um, but that sort of despair and desperation, which I have met in so many people over the years, in my work as a clinical psych, that I just [00:07:00] hate the idea of people having to go through that just to find out some information. Had I had information, it would have made a big difference. Correct information that has made a big difference to my life. Did did you tell anyone about drinking the poison? No. No, I There were many things that happened to me that I never told anyone because often it was because I'd done something wrong. Like the time I was tired of the hail [00:07:30] hitting my legs. I had bare legs coming home from school. So I stood against the pine tree and the other side of it got hit by lightning. And so I ran all the way at home, absolutely terrified. So that was I never told anyone for years because, of course, I was told never to stand under trees and two and when it was raining and two never run in a storm. And the next time, of course, it was. Only a couple of weeks later, there was a pig all covered in, um, burn marks from running [00:08:00] across the the the pig paddock and got hit by lightning and and smelled. I could smell the crackling and cooked pork. And and again, I was so terrified that someone would have found out that I'd stood under the tree. And every time I went to school, I looked at the tree and half it was burned. And so it was a reminder. There were a lot of reminders in my childhood about things that I I, um we didn't have a religious background, but there were a lot of things that embedded [00:08:30] a strong sense of guilt. Like when I forgot to get the kindling and my mother chopped up a box the next morning to light the coal range and chop the top off his thumb. So my sisters bought the music. He holds a lantern while his mother chops the wood, and they used to play it all the time. And I was young and cringed. I was about eight or nine years old. So what kind of head space were you in after swallowing the poison and then trying to help your throat with the milk? I mean, where did you go from there? [00:09:00] Uh, I then decided to swallow alcohol and started visiting my parents cupboard. They had lots of strong spirits, and so I would take swigs out of the cupboard. And by 16 I was going to dances. It was always rugby club or rugby league club dancers in and the star GM in New Plymouth. And if there was ever an opportunity to get alcohol, then I would head for alcohol. And so, um, [00:09:30] it's not surprising that I, um he's got drunk and got pregnant. But But in the meantime, my brother I had my father went blind when I was at school when I was just towards the end of the Fifth form and into the sixth Form and went completely blind, couldn't see whether the light was on or off, and my brother had just been arrested for vandalism and and thieving. He he he had been premature, and he he was a mixed bag and lots of problems. [00:10:00] And so my father thought compulsory military training would make a man of him, since my father had fought in the First World War and and trained troops for the second, um, he had great faith in the Army. So my brother went off to the army and I left school and ran the farm, and I loved farming. I loved the cows. And so when John came back of course, We argued about the cows a lot because he would go off on the tractor and not and leave the cups on the cows and so on. And And so even after I'd had an operation, [00:10:30] um, he went to my father, was rushed out, he could hear the tractor going and the milking machines going at the same time, which is incompatible. So he rushed out and started shouting. And of course, my brother couldn't hear because of the noise of the tractor and walked right off the veranda. So I was mortified. So I held my stomach from the operation and went over and finished the milking. I was in agony and But the next morning I got up and milked the cows because I couldn't [00:11:00] bear, um, the cows being so mismanaged. Um, we had an argument one day and it was been over the cows, and he, um, grabbed the rifle and shot at me and shot my dog dead. I knew I had to leave the farm even though people from the district tried to persuade me not to. I knew that my life depended on my leaving. I could not be here to see what he was doing. Um, I'm not very good at at being blind to things happening, but [00:11:30] I quit. Couldn't. And I think 17 I think I was I couldn't really cope with it. And of course, not surprisingly, I drank even more. So whenever there was an opportunity to to go to a party, it didn't matter who the party was. So I probably put myself in a few risky position. Uh, but I, um, met a bunch of people who were into snorkelling and and I. I didn't know an alternative but to have a boyfriend because everybody had [00:12:00] boyfriends. So one became my boyfriend and he taught me about snorkelling. They'd paddle out on surf skis and and we'd die for crayfish and power and fish. And I just loved it and that. And then afterwards you could sit around with a flag and a beer, and I could consume vast amounts of that as well. So, um, that was how it was. And Colleen? I mean, the the girl that I was keen on was going to Teachers College. And so [00:12:30] I applied secretly to go to Teachers College. I can do a few secret things and hitchhiked to the interview. Nobody knew. And then I walked home to be at home in time for the cows and got accepted. And so I went off to teacher's college, but only lasted a year. As I said, Got drunk, got pregnant, and he was a nice middle class boy I'd been snorkelling with. And so he married me, and we ended up having lots of Children. But neither of us, uh, he knew [00:13:00] I was homosexual, but didn't really We didn't really understand the ramifications of anything about it, and I didn't meet anybody in 1963. I just lost a baby then, and he was at Auckland for a year. And so we had a flat in Devonport and I used to come over and go up and down Custom Street because there was this coffee bar do and I went in and I did have enough money to buy a coffee one day, and there were all these people, and I was fascinated by them [00:13:30] talking, and they just seemed to me to be the sort of people I might like. I didn't even think in terms of homosexuality, but I felt a connection. But I felt totally out of place having a child in a push chair. So I left after I had the coffee. And after that, I never felt enough courage to go back. And I would walk past and look in, um and so nothing ever happened. We went back to New Plymouth, and then, um, we came back [00:14:00] to Auckland. Really? With my pushing up, I had found a book on logic in a secondhand shop that in 1963 and that sort of interested me in in education. But, um, while I was down here, we came back to Auckland in 1966. But just before that, my son was at kindergarten and I was on the committee at the kindergarten. I already had. My parents always had a social conscience, so I knew that if Children were at kindergarten, you got involved and and so on. So I had done that, and [00:14:30] I was appalled that women were smacking their Children for crying when they left them at the kindergarten. So I stood up at a meeting and spoke out about it. There was dead silence, and then they went on with the meeting and I thought to myself, if I was the teacher, they would have listened, so I could see that was the sort of trigger from this book on logic that I found fascinating. Plus, that that I needed in education. So when we came back to Auckland, I went to night school and at university entrance and then went to university, [00:15:00] had two more babies along the way, Um, but got involved the university creche and running that, and and that's where I met Sandra Coney, who suggested I might like to come to an Auckland women's liberation meeting, which I had. So I said to my husband that I needed some time in the library, but instead, of course, I rushed into the library and then rushed to the women's liberation meeting. Can you talk for just a minute about how was, um, lesbianism and homosexuality seen in the [00:15:30] sixties, and also the the the kind of push into kind of feminism and the women's movement in the seventies? Well, it was interesting. It wasn't until I I got involved with feminism that I found the word lesbian. It had never dawned on me. And what was I 33 or something and still hadn't come across the word lesbian. Um, I hadn't [00:16:00] read a, um I suppose I hadn't read very widely. I read mostly nonfiction books, often on geomorphology and geology and things. Um And then once I started university, I read university texts. I had given up reading novels because of the emotionality of it. And so I never read any novels. From the time I was about 17 until I started reading some gay and lesbian novels in about 1976 and up till then [00:16:30] I'd never read a completed novel. I read lots, but not novels. All non fiction, um, biographies and things like that were OK, so I didn't come across a lot of things and I looked around and I still had this vague idea that homosexuals were short. And so I didn't really meet anybody that I could see was homosexual. I don't know whether I, uh, I can't remember having [00:17:00] a conscious decision that that person must be gave because they were short, but I still had this concept in my head. One of the things that I did think when I was pregnant with the first baby, I did think that that was a cure and I and my homosexuality would vanish. Um, unfortunately, there was a really nice nurse was trying to get the baby on the breast because I was being I was seriously ill, and I was unconscious for four days, so I was not in a good space. I was in hospital for three weeks, so [00:17:30] I, um and I hadn't a clue what I was doing, and it took some time to try and get the the baby established on the breast. And this nurse came back after she was supposed to have finished just to help me because she had managed to be more successful than the others. And I thought that she was just absolutely stunning. And it was very obvious that the cure that I had put so much hope on wasn't going to work. Um, [00:18:00] And so in the time that I was having Children involved with kindergarten and so on, I fell in love with various housewives and would often do things for them. All I could do was look after their Children, Um, help them with things. But I was really physically strong. I had belonged to the athletic in hockey. So I used to put the shot so I could do physical things if their husband was away or something. I could do heavy physical things and help them. Um, they probably had no idea that I was totally [00:18:30] Deo with them. Um, so there were a series of women that I really, really fancied but didn't do anything about it. I really didn't know what to do. Um, in my alliances with young, younger girls, when I was younger, I'd got as far as stroking breast and were sunbathing on the down on the river on the rocks. But that was all. And while I was very, very sexual with myself, um, and I always been [00:19:00] a great exponent of masturbation for all sorts of ills. I never transferred that knowledge to being able to think about what, How I might pleasure another girl. So, yes, it's interesting how, when you look back, how naive you can be as a young person and how it can carry right through the twenties, I mean, I was I wouldn't say I would be the happiest housewife in town during the twenties, but I love Children. And because [00:19:30] I have great affection and care for Children. I mean, I did do lots of stuff with my kids and so on, uh, things and so on. So, um, and they've all turned out really successful in spite of the ups and downs of my life. So going to university opened so many doors, but I really didn't find any homosexuals that I could think about when in the sixties until 1969. And [00:20:00] I heard through the university. Um, I only just started there, but I heard that there was the inaugural meeting of homosexual law reform being in the town hall, and Frank Haig was chairing it. And Mark Rowley, I think, was the secretary. And he was a psychologist. I met later on and worked with, um and I went along to that. My husband was appalled. Um, and I think he found it really threatening. It must have been very threatening for him. And so [00:20:30] that was a tense week or so until he got over it. He sort of said, I shouldn't have gone when I was pregnant, but I'm not sure what the pregnancy had to do with going to a meeting. But um, So anyway, that trying we trundled along a bit more. And really, by the end I I I think I had That was my fourth child. And then I had another child again. Later. Um, so I was in fact, I sat in my university [00:21:00] exams getting to getting my own supervisor so I could breastfeed in the middle of my exams and so on, uh, my life was fairly chaotic. And then I got to my masters and the diploma of clinical psych and finally got an internship at Mount Eden Prison. And that meant I was earning some money. And I had thought maybe the next year I could leave the marriage. But in fact, as soon as I started earning money, it became impossible to stay. And [00:21:30] already I had met some lesbians, um, at Auckland Women's Liberation and had an argument over abortion with them because abortion was probably never an option for me psychologically. Um, but I could and I could understand young girls being pressured to have abortions when they might not actually really want them. But I also could see that, um, in instances of rape and so on, abortion [00:22:00] was essential So, uh, yeah, I I had. But it was interesting that I chose to argue with the first lesbian who was Sharon S, That I'd come across, Um, and I think it was just trying to make it all that energy and frustration. How can you be so out there probably was going on in my subconscious when I can't, you know, get my foot out the the marriage door, so to speak. And so, of course, once I started [00:22:30] working with people and as I say, working with sex offenders, a lot of sex offenders. Um, in my first case load and and violent offenders, um, I started to, um, gain more confidence in, um, my decisions. And then, of course, just getting money in my hand meant the possibility that I could support the Children and and leave. And so, within months, I think [00:23:00] two months of my first pay packet, um, we split up, and it was a dreadful time for my husband. I felt so guilty. He was absolutely miserable. The best thing was when he met someone about five months later, and he's married her and with her. But it's been a difficult time for him. And he was, you know, lots of aspects. I think of his personality that it didn't want to acknowledge came out. So it wasn't an easy time, [00:23:30] but it wasn't also easy for me. I suddenly had taken on the full responsibility of five Children paying the mortgage and then trying to sort that out, trying to get a legal agreement. Plus, this was my year of doing all the case studies for my internship. Plus, um, within five or six months, I got involved with a woman from work. That's her first relationship with a woman, too. Um, and that wasn't successful. Um, not surprising, because I was in such [00:24:00] a mess. I tried various antidepressants because I had some very bad dips in that year. Um, one. I lost my memory. Another one. I had floating autumn leaves in my peripheral vision, and another one, I had nightmares of great, big, wetter over my body. So I gave up those and decided Sherry was cheaper and better. So prop myself up Really? With alcohol during that year, probably, um, not necessarily getting drunk, but just [00:24:30] taking the edge off. And sometimes and I decided so I think it took the edge off, and I decided that two negatives make a positive. So if you're depressed and you're an a depressant, then you might get a positive. That was my theory. I don't think anybody else agrees with me, but however, I'm still here. So what Impact on yourself? Did working with violent offenders and sexual offenders have on you? [00:25:00] I had, uh, an idealistic idea that wouldn't quite say that. I thought I was could save women from being raped and attacked. But there was that element. And I thought about it when I recalled what had happened to me as a child, and I had screamed to try and protect my mother. And so it was the same old same hold I was doing. Um, [00:25:30] also, I had the option of working in a mental hospital or the prison and the mental hospital was too difficult. I knew bad because my my brother, but I wasn't sure that I knew mad. Um, and maybe that was too close to to, um, one's own subconscious. If you do a lot of reflection, which I spent a lot of time as a child sitting on a rock in a bush reflecting on things so but I understood that particularly [00:26:00] theft and burglary and and, um, and assaults and so on. So that was my choice. And yes, and that was where I came across, of course, Women. I also did half a day at the women's prison, and that's where I met lesbians who worked as ship girls. Um, and that just blew me away. And all of them had a background of incest. And so on the one hand, I was seeing them and hearing their stories. And on the other hand, I was seeing sex offenders who were [00:26:30] had raped their Children. And so it seemed to me that we could empty our prisons and mental hospitals if we got rid of child abuse. Not all the offenders had a background of sexual abuse, but they certainly had been badly beaten. A lot of repressive. Um uh uh, Christianity fundamental Christianity had been laid upon them. They were very, pretty screwed up people and particularly, um, of course, I tried to call up anyone who was homosexual in prison. [00:27:00] Um, I had by 76 made contact with art, and I used to walk past the out office to go to my office in Bulgan Lane in the Justice Department. So I would pick up magazines, out magazines and take them because the men I worked with, the one or two were in for drugs and so on. But those who had sexually offended on someone younger, um, had this repression. And I thought if they could up the age of their desires, [00:27:30] there was lots of clubs in that opening up. And although it was still illegal, it was much safer if you went to, you know, West Side sauna or something. So that was my aim there. So I sort of used these connections to make my sort of therapy somewhat different, probably from the behavioural cognitive behavioural model that we've been taught. Were there many self identifying homosexuals in prison at that time? [00:28:00] Uh, no. They were very repressed. Um, but they would identify when I called them up. But the thing was, the prison knew they were homosexual. I mean, you've got some. You did have some fairly astute ex navy ex army people working in the prison Who, um, would and it was often in their probation file, too. Because often there were other misdemeanours that were relating to loitering and so on in certain, um, toilets [00:28:30] and so on. So I didn't I don't think in all the time that time in the seventies, I don't think I worked with anyone who was up on what would be just a normal relationship or sexual charge. Um, for being homosexual, it was always under age. But that might have been because I had a particular interest there or else it was, um, related to drugs and so on. Um, I can't think of any that was, you know, two guys in love [00:29:00] that that had been caught in public, that I didn't come across. Any cases of that. I know it happens. Um, and it did happen at that time, I'm sure. But I didn't come across any in my practise there so that naturally working with, um, uh, child molester or whatever you like, um, and the hearing the women's stories. I had been involved in a a rape research project, and then I had [00:29:30] done one for the halfway house, the domestic Violence Centre refuge on domestic violence. Uh, in fact, I cringe now. It was called the Battered wives questionnaire, but we published it in the women's weekly and got over 200 responses, and that was good to get some detail about the sort of offences. And so I did the same for the sexual abuse of Children. That was 1979. I'd won the award in 77 and gone over to Australia, [00:30:00] and that was quite a momentous year in 77. I also fell in love, probably for the first time in my life, and realised that one would walk over hot coals to get to the person of one's, uh, love and desire. Um, it totally blew me away. It was an impossible situation. She was not out, really. Although she was involved with the KG Club. But she was only 20 I was 35 with five Children. I mean, but I, I still, [00:30:30] you know, feel a glow. And I think of her and, uh, yes, and it it gave me an emotional response that I never knew was possible. And, uh, but the same time as I say in 77 I, I won the award. So another thing happened. I went to Australia where I thought big Australia. I would learn all about incest and sexual abuse, and they hadn't even got off the ground. They were even worse [00:31:00] than us in their recognition of why young people might be labelled delinquent and running away. Um, no one thought that the homes might not be very safe for the young person to stay at. Why would you want to sleep out on the street? That. And so I came back really determined to do something about the issue, which I then proceeded to do. I did the the questionnaire 318. I also added to that by going and talking with offenders when I [00:31:30] because I still thought it would be the bag. You know, the man with a bag of sweets sort of approach. And they said, No, no, you wouldn't use sweets or anything to entice a a young person. Um, yeah, that would be too far too risky. You'd get caught. The fact they were sitting in prison didn't seem to cross their mind as they were busy explaining to me when they used bribes. It was always when they established a sexual, um, they call it relationship. I'd call it an abuse, [00:32:00] Um, situation. They the child got a bit wise to it and started to back off. That's when they used the bribes to try and keep it going. They'd spent all this time coaching and schooling a child to get them where they wanted. And then So it was understanding the the sort of intricacies, I suppose, of people's behaviour, why they did the things they did to get what they want and how they then maintained it, which made it. Then I realised how hard it is for us to change our behaviour, and I'm [00:32:30] I lose my temper fairly easily. I have very low bar blood pressure. And so I shout and scream, and I used to try and do an alternative to shouting and screaming, and it's very hard. So if you're somebody who loses their temper and punches someone, it's in fact incredibly hard to change their behaviour. And so, um, I knew how hard it was for people to change, and so I tried to set up programmes where they could avoid situations that would make [00:33:00] it risky. So, you know, don't ever stop your car at a park or a school. If you're prone to be looking for underage kids. Sort of stuff. Um, so I had lots of, um yeah, interesting and sort of novel ways. I got one guy who always master he was an exhibitionist. He masturbated, um he liked sunny days and liked to take all his clothes off. Um, so I got his wife to buy him a cut wedding ring so it would flash in the sunlight and remind him of his wife. And that tended to be, you know, [00:33:30] his erection would sort of disappear with, um, that reminder also a photograph of the family in the car where he turned the key off. But of course, he reoffended because he lost the photo, came unstuck or something, and he lost his wedding ring. And, yeah, so he sort of sabotaged the things, the props that we'd put in to try and make it work. So, uh, yeah, I decided it was very difficult to change change people's behaviour, but it helped if they had a lot of knowledge [00:34:00] about it. So I still was on this pushing information out. Um, in 1981 I wrote the sexual abuse of Children and that was published and the Mental Health Foundation toured me around New Zealand and I spoke out about. So I had public meetings plus workshops for social workers, and it was a very intense time. Um, my mother also died in 1981 and I collapsed and had a [00:34:30] mild stroke. Um, it all got a bit much. 82. I limped through management by objectives that the Justice Department was doing and then left in 83 and worked a broadsheet for a year. And then I had managed to pay off. In a few short years. I had three mortgages, and I managed to pay them off. So I managed to, um, work part time, then for the Justice Department in 84 and enrol for a PhD. And my PhD was on [00:35:00] Children's understanding of sexual orientation, almost certain to not to guarantee your work anywhere. Mixing Children and homosexuality seemed to be, uh, quite difficult to do. Um, but I really like what I did. And I was hoping that, um, Rob Tillmans and, uh, the university of was going to try and copy my research there, but they couldn't get any parents to agree to let them talk to their Children. So because it was actually asking Children, you know, do you know what a gay man [00:35:30] is and how how would you know he's gay? And those sorts of questions? Um, and it was quite difficult in New Zealand getting a group. I had a group of lesbian mothers, so that was a sort of subgroup. And then it was during homosexual law. Reform, in fact, helped me because there was a group set themselves up called Hug, and one of them heard I was having trouble getting subjects, and he knew the the minister at the local Anglican church. And so he he talked to me [00:36:00] and he said, I'll ask my congregation there. Most of my congregation are members of Hug. And so he asked them, and they were all very happy. And I met all these wonderful people who were very supportive of, um, my doing this research because I thought if we were going to stop homophobia, then we need to know what Children know and how they learn. Do they learn about homosexuality as I the theorise that they learned it just as they learned about other family relations about [00:36:30] what cousins and grandfathers and so on roles. They learned about bride and groom then that the extension of that is that maybe you could have two grooms or, you know, or could you that sort of idea. So that was my thrust for all that. Six years of hard luck. What? What were the findings of that research? Well, I found that, um, I was I was able to go into the schools, [00:37:00] and that was interesting that, um, at intermediate age, a third of the Children just looked blank when I I wasn't allowed to use the words gay, lesbian and homosexual. So I had to show them pictures and ask whether if two men were living together. Do we have a name for them? That sort of. So I did solo mother solo, father, gay men and lesbians. But and I'd also done check that they knew bride and groom and, uh, wife and husband, those sort of terms. So I talked a bit about [00:37:30] weddings, so that sort of set the scene and I showed them pictures with these cue cards. And so and it was interesting. The younger ones all laughed. And I said if if two men are together as one a husband and one a wife. And they all found that very funny, but not in Congress, where the older ones were horrified at the idea. Um, but when you got to intermediate age and they were about 11 years old, those a third of them knew and would say, gay, Uh, a third [00:38:00] would look totally embarrassed. Go red look at the floor and didn't come up with anything. And so they obviously knew it was a discriminated category was my reading of their body language and the other third were blank. Just pass them by now. I think the age is probably much younger these days. Um, but it did fit in with the other knowledge of social relations. And I had a I also had a discrimination task where they could post letters in the box. This family makes me angry, [00:38:30] and this family makes me sad. And this family I love you a lot and this family's kind. And so I had all these, um, things, and I must admit the two men together got the angry and a lot of the bad ones. The solo mum got all the fussy ones. And sometimes the two women together, they decided it would be really fussy. Two mothers, one mother was bad enough. And two mothers. Um, so that was interesting in itself. And then when [00:39:00] I got the subgroups of Children away from the schools where I could use the words gay and lesbian, um, then the same sorts of things. The Children from the lesbian mothers tend to be quite political. And they How can you tell if a man was I would be wearing a big triangle. Or, you know, he'd have long fingernails or something like that. He he, um he, you know, he he'd flap around and they had all these funny sort of ideas. And but the Children from the stra who had straight family came from [00:39:30] the straight couples were much more, um, probably more representative of our community. And and they, too, came up with the idea that he would be effeminate, Um, and that, um, he might have longer hair or something to do, and and a number of them spoke about here because that they obviously had probably had some contact with gay men because their family were in hug. Who probably [00:40:00] came on demonstrations and so on. Uh, else they had family friends who were gay because one or two Children were quite astute and said he'd have a softer voice. And I thought that was quite astute, because that's the one thing I remember about my father being this great, big, burly farmer having this soft voice because he'd lived with a man for 13 years before he married my mother. So I found that sort of interesting. Um, so I finished that work. And [00:40:30] 1989. Really, um, graduated in 1990. I joined, um, child, youth and family just after the prison. I had resigned in 87 so I had a couple of year off when I didn't work. Try and finish my PhD. And then I, um because I've been involved in the International Lesbian and Gay Association from Homosexual Law Reform and because of that time, it was a very busy time, not of activism. Of course, the PD [00:41:00] got left a bit, Um uh, because I was busy doing all these other things, Um, writing lots of letters and so on with Jean Claude la. Who was the other? The male, Um secretary general with that organisation just backtracking a wee bit. How how did the law reform in New Zealand impact on the international organisation? Well, the international organisation really pushed, um, at New Zealand government and other governments, um, who were dragging [00:41:30] the chain on law reform for homosexuals. And so they were absolutely delighted, of course, because they chalk that up as one of their successes. They wrote letters and they got a success. Um, that, of course, everyone who wrote letters or think it's they're doing, Um and that's what you need. Everyone thinking that their efforts made a difference because that's how you do make a difference. And yes, so it was, um it was a great time when the news came through. I was at a meeting [00:42:00] at the Copenhagen town Hall and a Radio New Zealand. Um, reporter told me that it had just been passed and suggested that I announce it to the to the crowd. So, um, I looked around and so climbed on a chair and and told everyone and and, um, all the dignitaries from Denmark of Copenhagen were there and and everyone got right and behind it and thought it was great. And, you know, the glasses were raised and so on. And and [00:42:30] I think he got quite a good interview that would have come back to New Zealand. Um, at some point. So, um, but because of that, of course, they invited me to be secretary general, and I didn't realise how much time it would take. And also, it would involve me going to Europe every year, and and I And there was no funding, so I needed to pay for that myself. And I was there working part time on a PhD that I got [00:43:00] one scholarship of 2, 2000. No, $1000 is all I got to do that PhD over those six years. So I always had to work part time. And in those days, the regulations only allowed you to work six hours a week. I cheated and worked eight hours, and then I did another four at Odyssey House, but, uh, that I didn't tell them about, um but it was, um yeah, it was a bit difficult to, uh I was fortunate [00:43:30] that I had paid off my house. My older Children had gone. One was in medical school and he'd gone off to be a locum and so on. So they were moving out, and I was able to, um I have a flatmate that sort of helped pay the bills. So we we got by and I managed to say, Still save enough money to travel, um, by sleeping on floors. I think once I slept in the archives at and, um, the the lesbian archives, um, sleep all [00:44:00] the books and things and so, yes, sleeping on trains that sort of travel very much. The young backpacker type travel. So during the law reform period, did you were you active in terms of putting submissions into Parliament? Yes. I actually wrote a wrote a submission. And I wrote a submission because I felt that there was a lot of information that I knew as a clinical psychologist from my work. Um, because people would [00:44:30] sidle up to me when they knew I was a psychologist and want to talk to me about things at lesbian clubs after a few drinks, and I would try and arrange for them to see me at some other time. They could come into the office and talk to me about what the problems were. And so in a very short time, I learned a lot about what had happened to some lesbians, particularly the ones often who had severe alcohol problems. Um, they some had been raped by family members to make them straight similar to what's called now rape correction. That's done in [00:45:00] Africa to lesbians. Um, so because of the this information not being out there and being talked about, I put it in my submissions. And in fact, Rob Muldoon was very interested in my submission because I think he might have heard one or two stories because his niece was, uh I think it was his niece was a lesbian. Um, I met her at the KG the illegal KG club a few times. Um and, [00:45:30] uh, and I'd also put about, um, various, um people being, um, like Frank, Sarge and writers. And so on being homosexual or and lesbian Catherine Mansfield, Um, and how that information was denied us so that we we had no mentors. And what was the name of the minister of education in Wellington? I think, isn't it? He was on about saying, um [00:46:00] oh, that's right. I had mentioned that the poet from the United States, um, that his poems of love were to men, not women whose name just completely escapes me. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Uh, Wellington anyway said that he'd studied him at university. And what did I know? My my degree was in psychology, not English. Um, and Muldoon just jabbed him in the ribs and said, you know, even your teacher doesn't know Merv Move. Wellington. That was his main news. So, um, there were some [00:46:30] highlights. I suppose that was funny, but, um, most of the content of my submissions were pretty grim reading. Um, and I Yeah, and and again, my emphasis was that we needed mentors. We needed people out there that we knew about and hiding away in the closet wasn't the way to do it. Um, in fact, it was a disaster, as far as I could see. And you were also on the founding or part of the founding board for the AIDS Foundation [00:47:00] in New Zealand. That's right. And and I think feminists found that a bit difficult. I mean, they had always seen me as sort of not conforming to the general political correctness in terms of lesbian feminism. Um, I had got more involved with broadsheet when the lesbians split from broadsheet because I thought Walking away is not going to have many more articles published on lesbianism. Let's get involved and write them. And so and I did write a whole pile of articles for broadsheet. [00:47:30] I'm not a great writer. Um, I'm not great at English, but Sandra Coney is a great tutor, and she went over my articles, correcting them. She went over the sexual abuse of Children and and amber and mothers and edited those for me and and told me how to say things. But once I got on a roll and knew what I wanted to say, it was easier. But writing articles for a magazine is a is a certain type of style. And so, um, she helped me a lot with that. And so, [00:48:00] um, joining the AIDS Foundation, I think people found that a bit odd. And I said, Well, if aids gets into the offending community, we will have a crisis of Children with AIDS, and no one had thought of that. And that was probably one of the things that was really on My mind, Um, because I could not see how HIV would stay just in a homosexual population, because there [00:48:30] was always a crossover, um, and and that there are men who remain married who, um, just, um, pick up ca casual sex and and toilets and saunas and so on. So I knew there were, if that was going to spread into the heterosexual community, it was also going to spread into the offending community. Who, um, some who dabble in all sorts of things. Some are [00:49:00] very entrenched in paedophilia and are not going to venture out into the adult world. But others cross over considerably, and I could see that that was going to be a It could be a major problem. And I think my worst fears have not been realised. And I've been very happy about that. Um, and of course, in the early days, we got lots and lots of misinformation, and again, it emphasised to me how important it is to have the correct information. And also, when there [00:49:30] is a mistake to update it quite quickly, um, I found, uh, a lot of that. That quite frustrating. Um, trying to, um like we had the AIDS support network I was involved in before we actually got the AIDS Foundation up and running and worked with Bruce Burnett. And he was a marvellous guy. In fact, of all the information that he brought back so generously and gave us from the experience of the United States and and I had been to the United States several times [00:50:00] to, um and had a EF. The idea of how the the big change in New York for me was to go there one year, and it was just, you know, the bookshops and the and nightclubs and a fantastic time. And then the next time is the Pink triangle and silence, death and some of the big venues. Gay venues were now hostels for men. With HIV, there were lemonade stalls trying to raise money. There [00:50:30] were so many men in wheelchairs, it was shocking to me and, you know, so you sort of came back to New Zealand and thought, you know, we've got to get on top of this. What year was that? Um, the change was between 1982 and 1984 when I went back, um, and 1986 by then it was very bad. Um, and you'd go to a bookshop and you'd hear the book owner saying, Oh, the funerals at such and such a time. [00:51:00] And just so often, um, I'm still friendly with Ed. Um, handsome. I can't remember his name. I just No, Hermans, Um, he runs Giovanni's room in Philadelphia, and he's always sold my books. And, um, his co owner years ago, um, I stayed with when I was in. That must have been 19, 84 maybe. And, uh and I do. I kept in contact, and [00:51:30] I've been in contact with him all these years, and we still write to each other and and, um, yeah, the the sort of he sort of feels like his range of friends that he's known all this time is so, so small that their community was hit so much with, um, the HIV virus that he has very few friends of his own age who were out and about at that time. So it [00:52:00] just really decimated many of their organisations. And, um, I think it was a very difficult time for the gay community in the United States, and we were lucky that we had that. And we're not lucky that about the whole virus thing, but lucky that we had that information early and could get in and and make some changes. And so that that was really good. But it also made me very conscious of lesbian health. Because when I went to Norway, [00:52:30] um, that was about 1987. I had foolishly thought I could have a relationship with someone who lived in Tromso, which is a three hour flight from Oslo. And I went by train and it took me 2.5 days. Um, because by the time I got there, she had a brand new girlfriend, but that was all right. Um, it's impossible in any way to Leo's Here. Give me a break. It's not gonna work. Um, so, uh, in to So they had, um They were handing out leaflets [00:53:00] and so on on, uh, HIV at that time. And they had been given a pink bus by the Norwegian government because there was so much money being poured into the gay male community for because of the HIV virus. Then the government said, Well, we have to do the same for the women what we can we supply for the women. So they gave them a pink bus with lots of health information, and it toured the whole of Norway, taking information to women about breast cancer and breast checkups and cervical cancer and [00:53:30] so on. Um, and it's a real pity that we didn't have that back here because so many are at the Lesbian Museum. We have a remembrance poll, and so many of the women on our remembrance poll died of breast cancer. So, you know, and I guess because of the numbers that pushed me into, um, doing research on lesbian health [00:54:00] because I could see that we're more likely to have fatalities if you delay going to the doctor. And there was some suggestion that lesbians delay going to the doctor from research done in the United States. So, um, I did this survey of 795 women responded, and sure enough, it was, um, a bad result, really for lesbians because they do delay going to the doctor for many quite complex reasons, it seems, but we haven't managed to do any research. Admittedly, [00:54:30] we got no funding for that. I've never had any research funded except through an organisation. Like when I did underage prostitution that was funded. And I actually got paid to do the lesbian health. I went on the dole and got paid 100 and $47 a week to do it. No, it's just the I I'm too busy doing the work. I mean, it was a long, hard slog, so I just got in Ross to do the work. Um, I think what made me sad was I really wanted to call the report [00:55:00] Butcher the butch because they delay going to the doctor worse than straight men. Um, but because my co author was at university at the medical school, she wanted a more, um, academic title for the report. We did get a little bit of funding in the end, not for the actual research, but to publish the report. So we could, um, photocopy it and bind it because 100 and $47 a week isn't gonna cover those costs. [00:55:30] The only way I've survived is I sell my house and buy a cheaper one. I might end up in a a garage in narrow is my expression. It could be, I suppose where I came from, but or near there. So, um, I, I did that. And then, of course, I've got involved more with, um, setting up the lesbian museum. And that came out of not finding anything that was, um, available because again, [00:56:00] I think no one should have the misery that I suffered from lack of information. Um, because it's there. It's available, but nobody put has put it together. And so I really wanted to, um, have some mentors for young people there. There should be our history should be available for young people. So it's OK. We still our latest statistics are still showing [00:56:30] a high number of gay men and lesbians are still attempting or thinking about suicide and getting depressed and sometimes committing suicide. So we, um, we still have a problem, and I think that problem can be helped if there is more out people, not only the celebrities who, of course, all the gossip goes about, but just ordinary folk. If we could all be [00:57:00] more open, then there's a good example, and it's the same as it was really the same. If we could all talk about sexual abuse. I thought it would stop. That was a bit naive of me. Um, And while we do have much better systems now than when I was a child, um, I was abused three times, but, uh, by three. Well, three different offenders more than three times, but, um, but there was nothing then I wouldn't have told a soul, given the other things that were going [00:57:30] on for me. Um, I wasn't about to tell anything. Um, and so there are much better systems now, but we're still not really getting to the crux of enabling young people to get through adolescence in a better way without them feeling that the world's against them. We have very few role models that we could grasp if I had known one. If I had clicked that I knew that [00:58:00] teachers at our school lived together. But I didn't transfer that across that they were homosexual. I couldn't. Well, they weren't short. One was short, but she was with a tall girl, a tall woman. We used to call them bucket and spade, but it just didn't. And so it's again. It's this information that if we give information So if we tell lesbians that there's a tendency for you to delay going to the doctor. Will they improve? I'm not sure. [00:58:30] Um that was a, um, over 12 years ago that we did that research and it hasn't The lavender Islands followed up a bit, but the questions were a little bit different. Different, and I'd like to see that research being done again, but I think I might be a bit too old and tired to do it myself. Um, and hopefully it will get funded next time and have therefore more respectability because it seems like things that get funded have respectability. But, um, I guess I'm used to being [00:59:00] outside of right when I spoke out about the sexual abuse of Children during the eighties and about lesbian mothers, and I used to try and keep those two issues quite separate. So when I published Amazon Mothers, the Book on Lesbian Mothers and I used the mechanism that I had used for sexual abuse books of poking them into the sex into the family court, I knew some of the family court counsellors through my work with sexual abuse, So I gave [00:59:30] them a copy of Amazon mothers and they thought these would be great for the family court judges. So I gave them copies. I often didn't sell books I gave them. We gave away the sex abuse of Children, 500 of them to social workers around the country. Um, we gave away Amazon mothers to the courts, and suddenly the judges realised well, he was a bunch of lesbians rearing Children. The world hadn't ended. They didn't know any lesbians. Well, very few of those judges knew women [01:00:00] who loved women and had Children. So all they knew the only lesbians they knew were coming through the criminal court, you know, for pinching a car or assault or something. So their range suddenly opened up and they could understand. So So I guess I'd had quite a bit of success, and they'd stopped doing the nasty custody cases that they'd been doing out of ignorance before that. So I had some success in terms of, uh, [01:00:30] giving information, putting it in a book, making it available to the right people and getting some success. But of course, I did get a lot of flack from journalists about the one and four I had used. Kinsey's figures that suggested that one in four girls will be sexually abused before she turned 16. And for a long time I that was the only research I had. And then rape Crisis did a bit of a survey in a school, and they came up with one in three. I thought that was a bit alarming and stuck to the one in four. [01:01:00] And then the Otago research came up with one in 31 in 41 in five, depending on how you define sexual abuse. Um, if you defined it very broadly and included exhibitionism, then it was one in three. If you included just a genital penetration, then it's one in five. But other molestation in terms of physical touching would be one in four. So we're back to the one in four after all those years of being lambasted and so on, and still people try and knock that I think less so [01:01:30] in the last maybe five years. But I know when I was on the Children's agenda, we still had problems with people, um, having a go at that statistic, it's like shooting the messenger instead of dealing with the problem. Um, which is a common, I think reaction. And sometimes one needs to understand. Why do we react in such a strong way to something? Um, understanding that then makes us realise that we can sometimes be blind to what's affecting [01:02:00] ourselves. And if we deal with that, then we're open to a lot more things in the in the our day to day life and, uh, and to other people and can often assist other people. So, um, I suppose over the years, I have chosen to talk out about subjects. Um, you know, I've even run ma masturbation workshops, of all things, um, in the heyday of the eighties, um, [01:02:30] and talked about sex and the usefulness of sex not only as an expression of love between two people, but sometimes for health reasons and all sorts of other reasons that it's part of our whole physical makeup. Um and yeah. So it's been an interesting journey, and a lot of what I've done has actually had a political base, but not probably an obvious [01:03:00] political base to other people. It's like my art doesn't always appear to be political until you think about subject matter, and and then mostly It's about our lack of ancestors and lack of knowledge, because certainly for women's history has not been handed down. It's very piece meal. Um, unless you gave birth to a prince or a king, you're not really mentioned. And certainly, if you're in love with [01:03:30] a woman, it's very hard to track that history down. As we're finding, you know, go on the Internet looking up spinsters. You know, it's it is difficult to get information it's hidden away and people's attics and cupboards and things or else burnt. Can you talk for a moment on? I'm I'm really interested with the Charlotte Museum and and also some of your earlier work How, uh, the difference between personal energy and collective energy, for instance, with the Charlotte Museum. [01:04:00] Um, if you weren't there and establishing it, do you think it would exist? Survive. Continue on. No, I think that, um uh, because I have been so stubborn. Um, to start with, we had a display in a in another building. And then I got a venue. That was the trust felt a bit expensive, but it was a nice place, [01:04:30] and we thought if we were going to see something else. It needed to look good because, you know, you could imagine, you know, four stained old t-shirts on a display stand is not going to look very good unless you have it in a nice surrounding, like an art gallery and art because, uh, an art exhibit I have, um you know, white walls and so on. So our idea. And so that's what we did for two years. But it was crippling $2000 a month. We paid in rent. And [01:05:00] so I mean, I've spent some of my own money and paying that rent towards the end. Um, it was very difficult to raise. And so we closed it down, left, and within and over Christmas, nothing happens. Anyway. Everyone goes to the beach. So then we reopen in the space we've got now, which is still $1000 a month we have to raise, but it's more possible. And we have raised that this year. But we really want a permanent home [01:05:30] because the work we've done, we've done so much in this time. We've managed to put out a general book which I put together sort of cobbled together bits and pieces about lesbian music, lesbian, art, lesbian. So we had this mixture and a friend wrote an essay. A couple of friends wrote essays for it, and another friend laid it out and so on. There were all these collective of people who contributed and that we've since done a little book on Early [01:06:00] Lesbian Theatre, and then we've done. And currently we're laying out one on early lesbian music. And we've made a film with Andrew Whiteside on that, um, that was funded by lotteries. And we've got, um, a one on sport that was funded by Polo Trust. Um, so we've got a book plus a banner we've done on lesbian sport. I mean, we didn't have too many, very many hours paid research for that. So it's just a taste, really, of what we could do if we had more funding. [01:06:30] And we've got a researcher at the moment working on early in Auckland, and we've got another one on early lesbian networks in Auckland and another one working on work in Auckland. So it's all these struggle, so this if we can get the funding, then there's people are interested in doing the research. But at the same time, we're still trying to set up the museum so that it complies with museum standards set by Papa. And while we've done most of [01:07:00] it to a reasonable standard, we've now finally got funding for someone to go through and work with all of us to make to see where we could do better. So, um and we we're quite pleased when we've got those completed, Hopefully at the end of this year, um, 2011 and can send our, um, copy off to Papa and we will be a real museum. Then I think Do you think something like the Charlotte Museum should be part of te papa or a national kind [01:07:30] of museum? Or should it be a separate entity that looks after its own kind of niche area? I think it has to be a separate entity to look after, because when we think about what happened at Auckland Museum when all the specialists became generic, if they can do that just with one decree, then you could It would be very difficult for someone to understand how lesbian music made community unless you were there or you [01:08:00] have a a solid understanding of how lesbians work as a group, Um, and it is different. They, um they Yeah, the whole collective doesn't get PM T at once, but it is a factor, so you have to work with what what you have. And collectives come and go, because the whole idea of having a collective process means it's long and laborious. And [01:08:30] volunteers come and go because they, um, they like more. Like me. I like things to be cut and dried, and I don't really want to spend three hours thrashing out something. I just want the A list made of what's practical and what's not practical. And let's go with what's most practical and what we can afford. Um, but I guess that's the way I've lived my life. And so I tend to like things like that. My Children always said I ran a matriarchal dictatorship, [01:09:00] but they didn't mind because I did the dishes every night because I like doing dishes that Children leave you alone when you do the dishes. So it was very rewarding. So some things I do are rewarding, but I do worry that if I drop dead today, um, about the museum continuing I have set up a small fund of money that is owed to me that would be paid to the museum instead to pay someone to do what I've been doing. But that [01:09:30] would maybe only last for a couple of years so that I have to start funding themselves. Um, and that's a worry. And that's why I really want to push this year to get a permanent space that's more affordable. That's in the community. I do think it needs to be a community based um museum, like many of our other little museums, that they can then maintain a specific focus and it doesn't get watered down or it doesn't get diverted into [01:10:00] something else. I think that it would have when I saw what happened to the gay and lesbian exhibition in the Brisbane Museum and how it started off very gay and lesbian and how it changed. The headings, the wordings and so on were changed by the museum staff, who did not understand why those particular words had more meaning because they do not understand the concepts behind the many of the aspects of gay and lesbian life. Can you think of an example [01:10:30] Um there was a long argument, I think, um, keeping sissy and poof, sissy and pus, for instance. Um and I can't think there was another article where they chat Example where they changed the words. But I know it's in my notes. I can't remember too old. So this project is called, um, making a difference. And it's all about making a positive difference within the community. And I'm just wondering [01:11:00] if you had any advice for somebody that's thinking, How do I make a difference? How Where do I start? I mean, what would your advice be? Well, the first thing is to, um you don't have to find a cause. Just find something you're interested in and, uh, get involved as a volunteer. There are heaps of organisations out there masses, in fact, of not for profit organisations who depend on volunteers. [01:11:30] Um, just and it's amazing what what you can come up with. Two university students from Otago worked with the EPA child alert in Auckland this year this Christmas holidays, and they walked from the south to the north outlining the problems of child prostitution. Now it wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. I don't think, But it's happening today because of the Internet and so on. Um but also, [01:12:00] what a great way to publicise, a difficult to talk about topic and to young people. What's more so it's not the old grey fogies who bander on about it for so long? Um, it's young people are sort of picking up the cuddle and going with it. And so there's lots of activities like that that where you can make a difference. You can get out and publicise things. You can talk about things you can also do a lot of hands on, you know, planting trees or whatever your interest is. [01:12:30] There's heaps that, um, that can be done and needs to be done by volunteers because we can't pay people to do everything that we would like done in our community, much as we would like to pay people. But that's one of the things with setting up the museum. People sort of said, Oh, well, I hope you're getting well paid for all the work you're doing And I said, I'm on the trust. I'm the secretary of the trust. No trust board member gets paid for anything. Um, and they found found that a difficult concept [01:13:00] that people would work so hard for many hours without getting, um, any reward, financial reward. But financial reward isn't what people like us seek. It's making a difference and seeing a change. That is the most rewarding thing I think that we can do, um, in our lives. It's feeling that we've come on to the Earth and made a difference while we were here for however long it was.
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