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Mira Woldberg [AI Text]

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[00:00:00] I'm ambassador in New Zealand since, uh, August 2018. Uh, I worked for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the Netherlands, in fact, already since 1998. Uh, I've been posted in Jakarta and in New York for both for four years, but also in The Hague as well. And, um, when I was, uh, up for, like, uh, change my posting again, Um, I was really looking forward to a, to a, to a country, uh, where you can work, like [00:00:30] do your own initiatives also and, and, and, um, yeah, determine a little bit more your agenda than maybe, uh, uh, it's possible with other, with other countries. And New Zealand, I mean, I had a very positive, uh, work relation with New Zealand diplomats in New York, very close, also in Jakarta, by the way. Very like minded country, we work together on sustainable development, on climate, on human rights. So I really look forward to working in and with New [00:01:00] Zealand. What were your initial impressions? My initial impressions? Now, a very beautiful country, um, it was very, uh, I mean, definitely I arrived in Wellington. Uh, and the view from my office is just stunning, and you see the harbor, you see like the, the mountains in the, in, in the back. Uh, very green, um, yeah, and so much like the sea, the water, I really loved it, yeah. So, since arriving, uh, you and the embassy have been [00:01:30] doing quite a number of Rainbow LGBTI events. Where does that commitment come from, uh, for supporting LGBTI issues? Um, we have, I mean, for, for the Dutch government, human rights is really a kind of, uh, the core of foreign policy and it has not been like a recent, uh, matter, but already since, uh, I think that in, in 78, we said like the cornerstone of the Dutch foreign policy is promotion and protection of human rights.[00:02:00] Um, but of course, priorities changed in these, in the course of these decades. And, um, uh, support for promotion and protection of the human rights of LGBTI plus community is, is really, uh, in this, in this also in this government, very strong priority. So that was of course, one of the reason like also formally why it is so, so important to do like worldwide to try to make an improved the situation, uh, fight [00:02:30] discrimination. Um, but. Um, I think for me also personally, I worked a lot on human rights. I also started in fact, like at Amnesty International, uh, when I, uh, had my law degree. Uh, so this is also very personal topic that I think is extremely important that we highlight and, um, I think, yes, New Zealand has already a very positive situation, so in that respect it's maybe less prominent, I would say, a big issue for New Zealand, but I still think that [00:03:00] for worldwide it is, it needs continuous, uh, attention. I mean the situation is not yet perfect. I mean, having a good law structure, um, a good rule of law does not say that discrimination does not take place or that all people feel respected. Um, and apart from that, I'm also accredited to the Pacific Islands. And in, of course, in, in a number of the islands, um, the rule of law in general is okay, but the law structure around LGBTI [00:03:30] is, is, is far from, uh, from perfect. That is something of a priority for us. Try to work on decriminalization, um, and work around and providing more protection in, uh, for human rights of LGBTI in the Pacific. How do you navigate, um, I guess the different cultural aspects between, say, in New Zealand with LGBTI rainbow rights? And in the Pacific, I mean, because your role, you have to sit in between the two, how, [00:04:00] how do you do that now? I think that for us, for most important, I mean, in New Zealand, you can, of course, openly be very active in this matter. And I'm not. Like, uh, it's not a, not a big issue for people. I mean, maybe they don't agree, but of course we can openly, uh, promoted by events, by having the, the, uh, human rights film screenings, uh, panel discussions, uh, we can support that openly. I think that, that with the Pacific, I think it's up to local, uh, people actually [00:04:30] to try to, to work around in a way that they think serve, uh, their. course best. I think definitely in the specific context where like religion, religion in the Pacific is such a crucial issue. Um, but for everyone and that like, um, and there I, I definitely understand we have, there are also many local groups in, in, in the Pacific as well. And what, what I try to do is actually try to support them to, uh, [00:05:00] plead for, for their cause. And that's, I think. for the Pacific the best way. It is more effective than I, than if I would go there and say like, loco, and let's change it. I mean, it's not a Dutch position. We think it's important that everyone and all people should be not discriminated against, should be free from violence and that all governments need to work on that. But it is important that local, uh, communities, uh, work in a way that they think works best. and is more, most effective. [00:05:30] So do you get, um, any pushback from the Pacific nations in regard to that? Not yet, I would say. No, I don't, no, I think because, I mean, again, I'm not, uh, going there hammering them like, uh, like all, um, I know best, um, uh, but I think it is really up. To the local communities. And I think, yes, the position of the Dutch government is not a big surprise. We are very active, not only like in bilateral [00:06:00] relations, but definitely also in a multilateral fora like in the United Nations. We have, uh, we're part of different groups that really focus on LGBTI rights in the UN and in the international arena. We are a strong supporter of the UN Special Rapporteur on Sochi. So I think that that is. That's sexual orientation and gender identity to, uh, promote also human rights for the, for the group. So this mandate, which we're very, very actively lobbied, [00:06:30] um, uh, for, I think, um, it's not a big surprise. And, and I, I think it's also important to highlight that, for example, Uh, Fiji in the Human Rights Council also supported, uh, the mandate, uh, extension. So I think that in a way, there is already something going on, uh, in the different communities as well. Looking at your, um, events and support, uh, for rainbow LGBTI communities in New Zealand, could you, um, just [00:07:00] take me through some of the events that you've been associated with? What we, uh, did like the first event was like the film screening in December 2018 when we had, uh, Mr. Gay, uh, Syria, which was a movie about, very interesting, about, uh, a refugee in Turkey who'd participated in a, in a, in a kind of, uh, I mean, a competition, but like Mr. Gay, Syria, very, I think, um, not, not too heavy movie, but still highlighted some of the issues and, and especially [00:07:30] in a, in a challenging. Context like in Turkey and in Syria, um, I think we had like an, um, we also had like the support for the Pacific day to discuss human rights issues, uh, in the margins of the big conference, the world conference of the international, uh, lesbian and gay association that took place last year. So we work together also with Tifa Fana and [00:08:00] also with Intersex New Zealand to try to have a day where we brought like several Pacific activists from all different communities to discuss what is important for them. What is like the human rights protection? What do they need? What are, um, actually, um, their wishes? And I think that was very useful to bring people together because this specific conference was really one of the first times that we had so many Pacific activists coming together and learning from like [00:08:30] experiences, not only from like it within the region, but also from outside the region. We had activists obviously coming from Africa, from Latin America. And, um, from, um, a number of states where it is also very difficult, and I think that that is important, that they get strengthened for their own actions and their own, uh, initiatives. Um, so this was an important part. We also organized another human rights film screening on. out and about. Um, and, uh, that was around, [00:09:00] I think, Human Rights Day in last, uh, December 2019. And we participated in a pride parade in Wellington. Yeah. Just getting back to the ILGA World Conference. Now that happened, um, just at the same time as the Christchurch terror attacks happened in New Zealand. And that was one of the, I mean, for me, that was really shocking because it was the largest kind of terror attack in New Zealand we've experienced. Can you remember that day and what it was like for you? Yeah, the terrorist attack, that was [00:09:30] really a very, uh, extremely sad day, and in fact, like, for us as well, this became, this was of course an enormous shock, uh, for Europe, terrorist attacks are maybe, uh, not that unknown, to be honest, but for the Netherlands, it is, to be honest, and the scale was like so, uh, so, so big that it was really, uh, almost, um, Yeah, too big to really, um, understand what was, what was going [00:10:00] on actually in, in Christchurch. We had at that time an event at the residence. And of course, like during the first news, uh, reports, it was not very clear what happened, but then when it became clear, we more or less also stopped the whole event. And of course, like, uh, try to get information about, uh, no, yeah, also whether there are like Dutch involved or other people involved that we knew because as an embassy, we have to be also. So careful in, in, in, in taking care of that. But of course, in, in [00:10:30] contacting New Zealand authorities, um, our King expressed his condolences, the Prime Minister as well. It was just a horrific, uh, day and I think an extremely sad day for New Zealand. It must have been very sobering for the, uh, conference participants as well. I mean, it was so, that, that conference was so diverse and it was talking about human rights and then to have this kind of happening at the same time. Yeah. Thank you. No, that's definitely what I, I noted as well because on the Sunday we had in fact the day about, uh, that was the [00:11:00] Friday was the attack, Sunday was the, the day on the Pacific with the Pacific participants and of course everyone had in his mind like this, uh, yeah, act of like complete intolerance about, um, yeah, about hate, um, um, about not respecting people. That's really at the core of course of the, of, yeah. Of yeah, not feeling part of a community that it was a real big thing for all participants as [00:11:30] well. But I think it was also good to, to, um, to still try to also continue with the conference because this was a unique. Um, moment and it was very important that we had all these people together that we also try to discuss the issues that are, uh, for them a current, uh, day for every day challenge. You mentioned also that last year you had the, um, human rights day, uh, screening and talk in December [00:12:00] and at that talk and at that screening, um, you talked publicly about a friend who had passed away and how their parents hadn't supported their sexuality. What impact did that death have on you? Um, that was a, uh, that had a huge impact on me, actually, because it was an extreme good friend. Uh, and he did, just didn't, just passed away. He committed suicide. And, uh, I think that that was for me really... Underlined the [00:12:30] importance, how important it is that people feel respected, feel safe, and feel, um, just accepted as a human being and that's, yeah, the, the, uh, who you love or, or, or, yeah, who you are, that is really, uh, the most important, um, very important to be public about it and, or not, public or at least public to, to your friends and your family. And I think that that is very important. [00:13:00] Um, yeah, about your own identity that you really feel that you can be free to express who you are. And, and I mean, life is already quite complicated, uh, for lots of different issues, but I think that you cannot even be open about this, which doesn't harm anyone. And it's all about love. It's, I just. don't understand that that, uh, is, is, uh, that people have, like, uh, problems with that actually. Yeah. And, and so is this one of the [00:13:30] reasons for marching in the, uh, pride parades, that visibility to show that actually, you know, you should be able to be who you are? Now, I think that it made me realize that it is not, uh, a given that, uh, people feel that. And like you can, you can also say like, Oh, it's not an issue for me and I'm a friend and blah, blah. Uh, that is something I think may be easy for people around, uh, people who maybe do not feel secure and do not [00:14:00] feel. And I think that the pride parade can actually also not only, uh, express, uh, is an expression by the people who of course are part of the community, but also other people. who, uh, can show solidarity and say like, yeah, we are there. We are with all, uh, we are with you. Yeah. Can you describe for me, um, your first, uh, time marching in a pride parade and what that was like? Um, that was, uh, now, I mean, I've been, of course, in Amsterdam, you have [00:14:30] a huge, uh, pride parade, which is. course, like, uh, like, uh, very big event. Um, so I've been, of course, like as a, as a person who watched it. So that, that is, that is something that I did like many, uh, many years actually. Um, also with this friend, by the way. Uh, but, uh, uh, in Wellington itself, I thought it was very, yeah, it was very nice uplifting. Uh, I. event and, um, [00:15:00] very, very good. Yeah. Very positive. I think it was a very positive atmosphere around it. And it's, uh, I think that, uh, yeah, we all felt pride that we were part of that actually. And the, the two large inflatable kissing dolls. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's what I really liked when we saw it in like, Uh, it was developed, the concept in, in Ottawa, uh, so that was the colleagues in, uh, in the embassy and we thought like this is so good because it really is a very, [00:15:30] um, also again, a very positive, um, expression, but it also, uh, has like this very clear Dutch touch with having the Delft blue color in it and making it so clear like this is something that, uh, it's, it's about love. It is about, Uh, equality and, uh, something that we all should be, uh, sharing and, and actively working towards for, so that's, yeah. Now, there's a, uh, Pride Parade in Wellington coming up very [00:16:00] shortly and there's been a couple of media stories, um, calling for a boycott of the parade because, uh, some people don't think it's about the rainbow communities. It's not by, for, and about the rainbow communities. Has the embassy been approached, and if so, what's your reaction been? No, we have not, we are not approached. Of course, we also, uh, read the news reports, and I think, of course, I mean, as a Dutch embassy, I'm, I'm not the one judging, like... discussion between the Rainbow [00:16:30] community in New Zealand. I can only speak for myself and the experience, uh, also in the Netherlands, where we have a very, uh, big pride parade, which is very inclusive, which like, uh, contains, uh, like corporates, yes, but also lots of communities, also army, police. We have also... both where you have now like the, the migrant community, um, is part of it. Um, and I think it's growing and growing. And I think that do that by that, that also people who [00:17:00] might not normally maybe feel comfortable in, in joining a pride by looking at so much diversity with. in the pride that really brings other people to join. So I'm a strong supporter of a, of a big pride that is inclusive. And I think that within that, um, within that context. And I think again, because what I said also before, I think it's for, I think it could also [00:17:30] contribute if it is about showing solidarity and yes, maybe. Uh, I do not, I'm not part of the LGBTI community as such, but I definitely have, oh yeah, so many friends actually, um, but also I would like others to feel, uh, safe, respected, and, and, and not discriminated against. So I, I, I, I think it's a good way to express that. But I mean, again, how the Wellington... pride parade is organized or I don't even, I mean, that's of [00:18:00] course up to, to the, to, uh, everyone who is involved here in Wellington and where they feel comfortable with. At the, um, LGBTI rainbow events that you've been to in New Zealand, what are the biggest concerns people are coming up to you and talking about? What, what are the issues? Um, now issues about like, uh, uh, for example, when we had the event in, in December 29, uh, yeah, 19, the last day. Uh, which was, of course, much more [00:18:30] focused on children, uh, and parents, and, and how difficult that is, actually, that you come out, that you start a discussion, um, that it is, um, that it takes time for people, uh, to actually, um, raise this issue. And that is, that was definitely shared, uh, after that movie. Uh, experiences, but also the settings of families or sometimes like, uh, yeah, like very conservative, uh, um, family setting or that [00:19:00] maybe the parents are fine, but that they feel maybe also not supported by their family and friends or feel insecure about that. And that has of course also impact on the relation between child and parent again. So I think that that these are, were issues that I think are. common. I mean, that's, that's still something in the Netherlands as well. This is not only New Zealand. This is, I think, worldwide an issue. At that film screening, you screened a documentary called Out and About. Could you tell me a wee bit about that? [00:19:30] Out and About is in fact, um, um, focuses on like this relation between Parents and children and the children. So it's about parents where like the son or daughter is gay or lesbian. Um, and that they live in a society like, uh, for example, Russia and, uh, Indonesia. where it is not so, um, broadly accepted like in New Zealand or the Netherlands, um, and the struggle they face, [00:20:00] but also, um, how they, um, uh, yeah, how they looked like when they came out, when, what they did with the parents, but also like the parents vis a vis their direct community, um, and about, um, yeah, the love of parents for children and that that in the end also, uh, really was something, um, that overtook their concerns. And I think it is, it was also a [00:20:30] very honest movie about like why, why also parents like, of course there are like issues about religion. But also issues about that parents felt like, Oh my gosh, my, now my, my child will have such a difficult life. There will be discrimination that might not be respected. And the concern of a parent to a child was, I think, something that people can definitely identify with in a way. Um, but also see the struggle and see in, in, in the end, also [00:21:00] a bit of a, you know, yeah. A positive story as well. I found it a really confronting documentary but also fascinating having that kind of core of same sex attraction but looked at through a variety of cultural lenses. Yeah. Yeah, so it was very confronting. No, I agree. Very confronting because it's also, because maybe to highlight, it is [00:21:30] also about in the end, You still don't know, like, in what way everyone is really completely understood as a child by their parents, to be honest. And that's, that's of course also at the core, like, are they, they are respected, they are, they are, they are loving their kids. That's, that's so clear. But whether they can completely understand and that's, that's still open, in fact. Yeah. Now, you've lived in a [00:22:00] variety of countries and coming to New Zealand and living and working in New Zealand now. Could you tell me what should we be grateful for living here in New Zealand and what should we be working on? Oh, no, I think you should be grateful for a lot. Um, because I mean, this is, uh, this is a very open country. You have extremely I mean, uh, it's also ranking one of the highest if it is like not corrupt. It's not like freedom of press, [00:22:30] freedom of expression, um, the sense of freedom, but also of, of yeah, the solidarity. I think that in a way also, that's what you could see also after the Christchurch attacks. It was really amazing, uh, the reaction of the, of the New Zealand people. Towards the victims, towards like, uh, uh, the groups that were targeted and, uh, a real sense of solidarity. I think that's very, uh, that's something that you can be really proud of and very happy with.[00:23:00] So I think, um, yeah, what, what should you work on? I mean, that's of course very, very difficult to, for me to say, I mean, I think that you have quite some common challenges that you share actually with the Netherlands, like The Netherlands, we have a challenge in fighting, uh, the addressing climate change, uh, working on a more sustainable, um, uh, society. And I think that these, uh, are definitely issues that we work on. And I think to also, and I think, um, Minister Grant Robertson said this also at the [00:23:30] opening of, if we look back at the topic of this interview, but minister. Grant Robertson said at the start of the conference, it's not only about tolerance. Uh, if you look at like respect for minorities, but also about, um, LGBTI community and like almost, yeah, in fact, like your whole society, it's about embracing diversity and actively. actively embracing it. It's not like just merely tolerate. And that's, I think, a [00:24:00] very crucial, uh, um, message, which I think is very relevant for the Netherlands as well as other Western countries. Just finally, um, 2020 this year is the 75th anniversary of the United Nations. If you had a magic wand, uh, what would your ideal world look like? My ideal world, I think, my ideal world would be indeed, because human rights is so close to my [00:24:30] heart, I think that, that for me the ideal would be that for everyone, indeed, human rights are promoted, are respected, and all countries would live in a very free society, where they feel that, um, that they're not excluded. Discriminated against, that there is no violence committed, no wars. That would be my ideal world.

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AI Text:November 2023
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