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I grew up. I mean, I. I was a little girl in the 19 sixties. And, um, you know, in those days, um, there was a lot of pressure on little girls to play with tea sets and dolls and, you know, wear dresses and things like that. And I found that, uh, that I wasn't really, uh, oriented towards those things. And, in fact, I, I was much more interested in wearing shorts and playing with guns. I loved guns, and, [00:00:30] um, and going and running around outdoors and doing very active things. So, um, and that set up a real tension in my childhood. And I suppose that one of the the the best Encapsulations of that tension is a photograph I have of me and my very lazy first communion dress with a veil on with a with a homemade, um, rifle, uh, me holding a homemade rifle [00:01:00] over my shoulder. My parents obviously found that very funny and decided to take a photo. Um, so, yes, I had this tension as a child, and then, um, I thought, Well, maybe, you know, if you're a tomboy when you're a girl, does that mean you're a lesbian? when you grow up. And this used to worry me a bit. And I remember my mother gave me a sex education book when I was about 13. And in it it said that, um and this was based on [00:01:30] Freudian notions that said that if, um you know you you know that as a child and an adolescent, you can have homosexual feelings, and that's OK, but if you grow up, if you have them when you're grown up, that you're really you're really pretty stuffed. I mean, you know, you that's pathological. Um, and so I was brought up kind of with this belief, Uh, certainly with although my parents knew some gay people and lesbians. [00:02:00] But there was a kind of I suppose I had the kind of belief that if you grew up a lesbian, you were going to have a pretty unhappy life. And there was something a little bit sick about your head. When was the first time you heard about lesbianism? Oh, I can't remember when I first heard about it, but I do remember these women coming to Sunday lunch when I was about 12. Um, and they were colleagues of my fathers and and my parents [00:02:30] never called them lesbians, But, um, one of them was incredibly butch and very funny and quite crude and everything. And the other one was a pretty sort of thing, you know? And, um, and it didn't dawn on me till later that they are lesbians, But, um, I remember my parents are not joking about them, but but obviously, they had an attitude about them. Even before I realised that they were lesbians that, um, they were actually, um, a bit different. Yeah. [00:03:00] Yeah. Um, and so they're the first lesbians I think I ever met. I can't remember the first gay man I ever met. Um, it probably didn't have such an impression on me. So reading that book from your mother was that the first time you had actually seen something in print about what you were feeling? I guess it was. And of course, it wasn't very validating. And, of course, during my teenage years, um, I mean, I went out with boys. Um, [00:03:30] and I don't think it really came to the crunch until, um, I got a bit older. Probably about 17 or 18, although, uh, from an intellectual point of view. I. I was worried about it, but I still sort of went out with, you know, I was quite happy to go out with boys. Yeah. Can you recall in the sixties what, um, the kind of wider community felt about homosexuality? Oh, it was pretty grim, [00:04:00] I think. I mean, and in a way, if I look at the way I felt about it, uh, and that would have been a reflection of the community. And, um, it was pretty, It wasn't very positive. And, you know, I remember people at school going on about and, you know, she's a and all that sort of thing when I was, um, you know, 11 or 12. I think they still do that today, but I don't know. I don't think they do so much, but, [00:04:30] um, they've got a very interesting twist on the word gay today. That's what were some of the words that were used back then, as as derogatory terms. Oh, there was a well, Lizzy, um, I think queer was derogatory. Uh uh. I mean, a lot of these reclaimed words now. So it all started coming to a head when you were around about 17 or 18. Yeah, and I got very worried [00:05:00] about my sexual orientation. Um, and I I was the The thing that worried me most about it was that I thought, if I you know, if I was a lesbian, I wouldn't be able to have Children. That was the That was the big thing. More than the stigma of it, I think at that stage, um, and I I knew at a distance a lesbian couple when I was about 18. And, um well, they seem quite nice people, you know? [00:05:30] I mean, so So I think gradually, as I got a little bit older during those years, from the late teens to my severely to mid twenties, I gradually, um, got to meet people who were lesbians and who were gay. And, you know, they were you know, they were just, um you know, like what you'd expect any group of people to be. There were some that you really liked and some you didn't like so [00:06:00] much. And, um and and but also that at the same time, there was a huge amount of political activity going on, especially in universities, I think, and this was the kind of late seventies early eighties, and there was a huge, um, you know, it was it was the days of the women's rooms and the lesbian Separatist, um, split with the other lesbians and the and and with the feminists, and and so there was [00:06:30] a lot of activity going on. So I think, in a way, there was a lot of visibility about it. Um, and I gradually got more comfortable with the idea and more comfortable with, um, lesbians. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that helped me quite a lot. And but And at the same time, um, when you think about all the political activity that was going on, um, and the homosexual law reform, of course. [00:07:00] I think the whole social attitude there was a kind of a, uh, maybe a bit of a tipping point around that era when, you know, attitudes changed very fast over a very short time. And the, you know, in the late seventies, early eighties, can you recall how your family reacted to those quite rapid changes? Oh, well, I don't think it mattered to them until I came out to them. I mean, my [00:07:30] family were quite liberal. So and they were very, um they were very tolerant people. And, um um, quite forward thinking. My parents. So So these weren't big issues for them. I mean, when I came out to my mother, she told me I was going through a phase, which is, you know, I mean, that was her way of dealing with it, but actually, I mean, my parents were quite OK about it. [00:08:00] I mean, I'm sure that my father in particular, probably preferred me to be heterosexual, but he wasn't. Um there was no change in the relationship because of it. Yeah. Did you grow up in a large town or a city? Well, I Well, I initially grew up in a small town, um, called Winton in Southland, and I mean, it only had a couple of 1000 people on it. Um, and when I was 11, we went to the large [00:08:30] city of Invercargill, which had about 50,000 in those days. And, um, but of course, Southland, um, is a conservative part of the world. But I, I guess I never joined in with the conservatism of Southland. And I don't think my family did really either Where do you think that liberalism came from? Within your family? Uh, probably a combination of, um, [00:09:00] education, eccentricity and, um, imagination. I think I think that was probably a combination of those three things. Yeah, because you can be educated. I mean, education gives you a larger view on the world, but you can still be very educated and very conservative, so I think, um, I think there was a bit of eccentricity there on my mother's side of the family anyway. [00:09:30] So when did your mental health issues start occurring? When I was 18, badly, when I was 18. I mean, I got a bit down at high school, but really, um, it became a crisis point at 18. Was that tied in any way with feelings about your sexual orientation? Well, I think in a way it was tied in as it always is. It was very much tied in with the, um [00:10:00] the struggles I was having at the time. Um, and you know so commonly with young people, it's things like, Who am I And what's my place in the world? And of course, uh, quite a major chunk of that at that age is your sexual orientation, so yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think, um, I think it it was all part of the mix. Yeah. So can you tell me [00:10:30] a wee bit about, um, your mental health issues? Well, um, I, um, had probably about eight or nine years of experiencing very severe mood swings where I would get very so depressed that I was sort of almost catatonic, you know, I couldn't move, and I couldn't speak. And I, you know, I could barely go. I could still go to the toilet and do things like that. But I really couldn't do much else. And then I'd get Then [00:11:00] I'd get to the other extreme where I was, um, up all the time. Partying, moving around constantly on the move. Couldn't sit down. Um, very elated. Um, And that would, uh, So that would after a while, turn into paranoia, and I get psychotic. I mean, I got psychotic. Um, you know, I got I got into a kind of a another reality with these conditions when they got severe as well. And and [00:11:30] I had, um, Now, I mean, I Sometimes I go for months, and I'd be fine and then it would all sort of erupt again. But it really disrupted my life over about a nine year period. So when they first started happening, did you know what was happening? No. No. Well, did I know what was happening? Yeah, well, you said no. I mean, I You obviously know something's terribly wrong. [00:12:00] Uh, when you start getting or terribly something different when you start getting high or depressed. Um, and of course, there's a big controversy about what you name it. Um, I had no idea that I had a condition that these so-called experts would call depression or manic depression or bipolar. Um, um, I might have had other names for it. Um, but of course, the [00:12:30] names that are given to these things are basically their kind of judgments about them is they're not sort of Well, I mean, I mean, II, I just prefer to call them mood swings. Yeah, but in fact, that's not even a particularly accurate name, because, um, they they were a whole body kind of experience. Um, because it wasn't just moods. It was It was about your cognitive functioning, but your physical functioning? Um, [00:13:00] not just not just about your emotions. Um, I mean, there were, uh you know, like, a lot of it was about being sped up, uh, or slowed down in terms of cognitive function and physical functioning, too. Yeah. So, um and and it was an intensely spiritual experience. Um, as well, um, any experience you go through that, um, that involves, [00:13:30] uh, a you know, a huge shift in the way you are in the world. Uh, it's gonna be quite a profound experience for you. Um and I suppose for people who haven't been through these major, sort of huge mood swings or psychosis or whatever, uh, a drug experience might do the same thing. But you, you you kind of transport it into this other reality. And, [00:14:00] uh, you see the world from a different perspective. And, um, that's hugely, uh, challenging and kind of a bit difficult to accommodate or incorporate into the whole story of your life. Um, and and but it's quite a profound. I mean, being in the depths of despair or at the height of elation, they've quite profound human experiences. They both tap into the [00:14:30] whole question of our existence. I mean, despair is really about this existence isn't worth it, you know. So there are existential crises in a way, um, and I probably prefer to use that language than spiritual language. But of course, the the people who were on the other side of the treating table were not interested in the content of the experience. They just wanted to know that you were having [00:15:00] it, um, and give you some pills. And then they wanted to know that you weren't having it anymore. Um, so they had a They kind of had. This is this experience is on the rubbish heap. We've got to eliminate it and get rid of it. It was sort of like a surgical approach to it rather than an integrative approach. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and and I found that very limiting and very annoying. Um, and it's something that still goes on, Of course. [00:15:30] So can we take you back to the, uh, late seventies and just perhaps, talk about what your experience of, um, mental health services in New Zealand were like and also from the perspective of, um, your sexuality as well? Well, um, in the late seventies and early eighties, um, it was it it was what I call a pills and pillow service. Um, although, [00:16:00] um, I probably had a bit more access to sort of psychotherapy then than people would now in the public system. But really, basically, it was pills and pillows, so there were no sort of community services. You always went up to the hospital for your appointment. There was no sort of out what they used to call outpatient sort of facilities, so that that was a major difference. And, um, because the you know, since then, the big hospitals have closed down. And, [00:16:30] um and, uh, uh, most of the services are based in community settings, and people aren't sort of not so many people are are put into hospital. But the other thing was, of course, you know, it was, um it was in 1973 that, um, the American Psychiatric Association ditched its diagnosis of, um, homosexuality in its diagnostic manual. [00:17:00] And of course, the diagnostic manual is a total farce. Uh, what happened was that they they got rid of this diagnosis by vote. And of course, they do a lot of diagnosis. They they bring diagnoses in a lot and take them out sort of by vote, and it's a very political process. Um, and there's nothing terribly scientific about about it at all. Um, So I you know, and I know that before that time [00:17:30] in New Zealand, you know, there was, you know, in the hospitals they had aversion therapy for gay people that, you know, show them homo erotic images and then sort of give them a bit of a flick or something to hurt them or something like that. Well, I think they they experience some pain, so I don't think it was absolutely drastic, torturous pain, but I think they got the the whole idea of a version therapist. You associate [00:18:00] unpleasantness with the thing that you desire that you don't want to desire or other people don't want you to desire. So there was a bit of that going on in in, um, in mental hospitals. Um, the the West has always had a a pretty dim view about homosexuality, but I think, um, Freud sort of, um, elaborated on this end. Um, [00:18:30] had this view that you know, homosexuality, homosexual tendencies. Uh, well, they're kind of normal in childhood, which is quite a radical view. and I don't think it's even that true. But, um, and but people who grew up and remained homosexual, I think his view was that they were they had some sort of pathology psychopathology. Um, anyway, uh, I guess, um, in a way, [00:19:00] I knew instinctively that if I talked about my, uh, feelings about being a lesbian to mental health professionals, I mean, that would give them another reason to pathologize me. And I guess, in a way, um, because of the way they practised, I was reasonably defensive with them. Um, because they they had a totally deficits view of what was going on. [00:19:30] Uh, well, you didn't want to show them too much of yourself because you didn't want them to add to your deficits all the time. And I and I kind of, um you know, I knew that there were these lingering sort of beliefs about homosexuality. So So I That was the last thing I would have talked to them about. Yeah. Having the sexuality in the back of your mind. Did that ever prevent you from going and seeking help? [00:20:00] No, because I just decided I wouldn't talk to them about that stuff. so it was quite easy just to no one no one ever asked me. Actually, it's quite interesting, which is quite an interesting thing. Um, I don't think anyone ever asked me about that, which is which is, in a way, quite significant, because it probably shows, um, that those professionals weren't that [00:20:30] at ease with it, um, themselves. So back in the late seventies, what were the treatment options available to you? Uh, well, actually, the drug treatments, really, They There's been roughly the same kind of menu of drug treatments for 50 years. I mean, they change their spots a bit. Um, but but they're roughly the same. They're the kind of the kind of anti anxiety drugs, the antidepressant [00:21:00] drugs, the mood stabilisers and the antipsychotics. They're the main groups of drugs. And, um, they're not much better now than they were back then. Uh, some have less side effects. Some have worse side effects. Some of the new ones. Um, So, um, so there were the drugs. Um, and, you know, they tried me on just about everything. Um, and then they had a little bit more psychotherapy. Um, going on [00:21:30] in those days. Um, since the eighties. Biological psychiatry is really, um, had a resurgence. Um, uh, uh, and and mental health services. Um, but the therapy was just terrible. I mean, I I went to a couple of group therapy things. And, um, well, in fact, in some ways, it was worse than being told you had, you [00:22:00] know, an imbalance in your brain chemistry, Um, being told that, you know that you were, um, psychologically inadequate. Well, I'd rather have an imbalance, I think, than being told I wasn't, You know, I was inadequate person. And, of course, that was that was very much a deficit. It was sort of a deficits based psychotherapy. We had It was all about what was wrong with us. And, uh oh, it was terrible. It was shocking. It was awful. [00:22:30] And I just didn't participate much. Really. I dropped out. I was a bit I was a huge psychotherapy dropout. Yeah, So were these treatments, um, voluntary, Or did you have to do it compulsorily? Well, I was threatened with compulsory treatment on, um, a few occasions, and I seem to have the wherewithal to, um comply with, um things, so No, I was never No not that I know of. I don't think I was ever under an order, [00:23:00] uh, which I feel quite grateful for because I think it's a, um I. I mean, I've got a very dim view about the way compulsory treatment is is used, so they were kind of voluntary, but, uh, the there's the subtle sort of coercion that goes on as well, Uh, in mental health services, Um, but I think I was a strong enough person, [00:23:30] um, to not do something if I didn't want to. Yeah, but when they threatened me with the act, I mean, I was pretty far on. I mean, I was pretty out of it when they threatened me with. I knew my number was up. I knew I needed some sort of shelter of some sort. So, uh, that wasn't a big problem. Um, although today if if the same thing happened to me today and, um, they tried to put me on antipsychotics, I'd be pretty upset about [00:24:00] it. Yeah. How did your family respond, uh, to my mental health problems? Well, they were very worried because I had a, um you know, quite a major suicide attempt when I was 21. Uh, they My my parents were pretty over anxious and probably weren't. Um uh, it it was probably more helpful for me not to see too much of them during that time. Although [00:24:30] I'd always had a good relationship with them. And I did. After it all ended, it was a It was a bit tricky during those times. Um, I had a brother who was very supportive, and, um, I had some very supportive friends as well, which was hugely important. Yeah. So did the drugs work in the end? Well, only one of them seemed to do anything. And that was, um, an antidepressant. Um [00:25:00] I mean, I I've really come to the view that the drugs under a long term solution. Um, but it seemed to me that, uh, I did start taking out an antidepressant at one stage, and they were reluctant to put me on them because of my my manias. Um, that did seem to, um, sort of, um, stabilise things. Yeah, so [00:25:30] that was that was quite useful. Uh, but it's very hard to know, you know, if there weren't other things going on at the same time, that um We're also having an impact. Did you have an experience of mental health institutions? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was in hospital a lot. Um, I was mainly in a in a ward that was attached to a general hospital. Um, but I was also on Sunnyside. Yeah. Yeah. [00:26:00] And Sunnyside was a particularly horrible place. Um, I think the, um I mean, they're not nice places. Um, and and the the really depressing thing is that the kind of acute ward setting has got worse over the last 20 years. Not better. Um, but they're not very therapeutic places for people to be who are distressed. Um, I mean, [00:26:30] I could have benefited much more from going to a respite house or some other sort of more homely place where things were more ordinary. Yeah. What were the things that you recall weren't so good? Oh, I think that Well, I think, uh, in a place like Sunnyside in particular, the level of coercion that was going on, um, the seclusion. I mean, [00:27:00] we didn't even have a place to sit. The nurses wouldn't talk to you. Um, everyone was drugged out of their heads, Just sort of right. You know kind of. You know, I remember the first time I went in there, and there were just people lined up on the corridors just sitting in the corridors up against the wall, Just kind of half asleep. Um, and the nurses all sort of tucked away in the nurses station. [00:27:30] Uh, not really wanting to respond to anyone's request for help. Um, and that that's an incredibly common feature all over the world in these places is that, um the nurses don't seem to, uh, talk to the patients much. So was it more about containment? Well, yeah, I think it definitely, um, today it's it's containment. Yeah. And of course, you [00:28:00] know, the other thing about these places is that you're feeling very distressed yourself. And there's all these other distressed people around you who might be behaving in ways that you're not able to cope with, so that that's another issue. So can you recall any lesbians in the institutions or talk about sexuality? Yeah. Yeah, I had a good friend who was a lesbian, and, um, she's one of the people that probably helped make me feel more [00:28:30] comfortable with it. Yeah, she was quite comfortable with it. I mean, she was very open about it. She didn't actually, she ended up getting married. So I ran into her a few years ago and she was married. I thought, God. So, um, I did I mean, over the years, I've talked to people who who are in those old institutions and who were lesbians and who were not treated very well. Uh, and and in fact, I mean, there's quite a lot of [00:29:00] research that's come out from Britain in particular, about the experience of gay and lesbian people inside mental health services. Um, a lot of fear of being judged. Now, this is going back to the nineties, so it would be interesting to know if it's different now, but a lot of fear of being judged, um, a lot of, uh, But when people do disclose, um, you know, not a high percentage of people were very [00:29:30] happy with the response they got. Um, you know, I think I think there's, uh, probably still quite a lot that could be done in services. Um, for, uh, gay and lesbian people, because, I mean, people tend to go into mental health services at a young age, and that's an age when obviously, people are forming their sexual identity. Um, and [00:30:00] in this country, there's been very little attention paid to gay and lesbian issues and mental health. So did you ever talk about it when you were in the hospital? I can't remember if I had conversations with her about it. Um, but I do. Um I do remember, you know, feeling very at ease with her, and And she was one of the people that helped me go, You know, feel much more comfortable about it. Yeah. [00:30:30] So, I, I asked, um, earlier on about whether your mental health issues were related to sexuality. Do you think that's a common theme that runs through, uh, gay and lesbian transgender people? Oh, yes, I think. Well, the the statistics suggest that, um, if you're gay or lesbian, you know, you do have a higher chance of developing mental health problems [00:31:00] and substance abuse problems. It's particularly high for people who identify as bisexual. Apparently, Um And I mean, I think transgender people have a really difficult time, Uh, with mental health issues. Yeah. Um, and this is one reason I think why, You know, there probably needs to be a bit more attention. Um, put on, uh, this group of people, um, [00:31:30] by mental health services. Yeah. Why do you think there is a higher rate of mental health issues in the queer community? Is it because of internal factors? Or is it because of external things that are happening to people, Anyone who I mean people generally as a species. I mean, we crave sort of social acceptance, um, and belonging [00:32:00] and being visible and being appreciated and liked and all those things. And I think if we form an identity that threatens those things, if we have an identity that threatens those things, um that can prey on our mental health. I think it's probably as simple as that, um and and also can lead us into, you know, more substance abuse and other kind of [00:32:30] coping behaviours that, um, we tend to use when things are stressful or we don't feel part of it or whatever. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing inherent about being lesbian or gay that would create mental health problems. No. So I think it's I think it's about how where people see themselves in relation to society. One of, um, the labels you use [00:33:00] to identify yourself is mad. And I'm just wondering if you could talk to me about kind of owning labels and and whether mad is just the only label that you own or, um, if there are others No, no, Mad is not the only label. I mean, it's my I suppose it's my work life label. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't. No. Well, I mean, I'm, um I'm [00:33:30] queer. I suppose, too. So mad and queer. Um, how else would I label myself? I mean, man, and are reclaimed words, um, and they and they're kind of used with the same motivation. Can you talk to me about, um, kind of reclaiming those words? Yeah. I. I mean, I think, um, it's interesting that a lot of movements have done this. Um, I think, um, using [00:34:00] words that have been used in a disparaging way against us, uh, with a new sort of positive, shiny identity, um, is a really interesting twist on things. Um, and I, I quite enjoy it. Um, not everyone does. I mean, there are lots of people I know who have been through the system who hate the word [00:34:30] mad and get a bit upset when I start using it. Um, but I think, uh, you know, I. I suppose it shows a kind of a sense of humour or irony that I quite enjoy, too. Yeah. And, uh, a boldness about who you are and what you stand for. Yeah, in the mid eighties, uh, New Zealand was going through the homosexual law reform. What impact did that have on you? [00:35:00] Well, it had an indirect impact. I mean, I. I remember going to meetings about it and, um, you know, getting sort of interested in it and everything. It was just before I came out, actually, Um, and because it was just to do with men and sodomy, you know? You know, so it didn't really well, so I mean, um, although it was significant, [00:35:30] it wasn't it. You know, um I mean, the big joke was that Queen Victoria didn't, um she doesn't, uh, approve a law against, um, lesbians because she didn't believe they existed. So, um, so in a way, um, but but I think it it was part of a whole, um, ACC accelerated change of attitudes that was going on at that time towards people who are lesbian or gay. [00:36:00] And I think the fact that, um, that, uh, you know, the government was able to pass this legislation at that time was a reflection of the change. You know, the very quick change that was happening and people's attitudes. So I think I was caught up in that change in my attitude towards myself. Were you still, uh, in hospital at that time? Um, now, the last [00:36:30] time I was in hospital was 1984. So, uh, but I very clearly remember going to meetings in 1985 about the homosexual law reform. It was quite a big thing. So how did you, um, what helped with the wellness? How how did how? Well, um, as I said, um, you know, I, I was put on a drug that was I thought was quite helpful. And then, [00:37:00] um uh, the beginning of 1985 my brother was drowned. And, um, I think I think it was almost like a circuit breaker. I. I don't know quite how else to explain it, but but it kind of jolted me into a slightly another way of being. I think, um and particularly in terms of my the a lot of the self pity I carried about, you know, how my [00:37:30] life had gone that far. You know, this far, And And I realised, of course, that my brother, whose life had gone a lot a lot more smoothly than mine, had had it cut very short at the age of 28. And, um, that I was I was now the lucky one, I guess. And that sort of jolted me into a kind of a new attitude to life. And I think that really helped me a lot as well. I mean, it's quite paradoxical because I was very grief stricken. [00:38:00] Um, but I found the experience of grief to be very different from the type of depression that I had experienced previously. I mean, I think these things are always a bit of a mystery. Actually, I don't know if you can ever really understand, uh, how healing happens, but they seem to be two sort of conspicuous reasons. Looking back to, um, your experiences [00:38:30] with the mental health services in the late seventies and eighties. How do you think they compare nowadays? To how, um queer people, gay and lesbians transgender, uh, are treated by mental health services. My assumption is just from what I know and what I've heard. I mean, my assumption is that people are you you've got a greater chance of being, [00:39:00] um, well treated. If you come out in mental health services now, then you would have 30 or 40 years ago. I mean, that doesn't mean to say that you always will be, but I think your chances are better. Yeah. Um because one of the really interesting things about all this is is the kind of anticipated discrimination, uh, which can actually be worse than because it's a sign of your own [00:39:30] internalised stuff. And it can actually be worse than, uh then the reception you actually get when you do come out. Um, and I think there's probably a high degree of anticipated discrimination going on, you know, with young people who are struggling with their sexuality, and then they have a kind of mental health service that might be controlling them, you know, whatever. But yeah, I think I think on the whole [00:40:00] your chances of getting a a good deal and a good reaction are are better. Just thinking of young people. There's been quite a bit of talk in the media recently about bullying in schools and particularly queer kids coming through school. Do you have any thoughts about bullying in schools? Well, I think bullying at any age is pretty bad. I mean, um, my kids, um you know, they're going through school. [00:40:30] Um, now they go to a very liberal inner city schools. And, um, you know, being queer just isn't an issue for them. I mean, it's quite interesting, and I and I know other teenagers for whom. Yeah. So it's not even an issue. Yeah. You know, coming from central Wellington, I don't see among these kids. I don't [00:41:00] see any bullying that's around. Um, you know what? You know whether there's sort of a bit camp or something or, um, Butch or whatever. Um, and I think they have a great sort of, um a great sort of, uh, accommodation for diversity, these kids much more than we did. But then, um, I don't know what it's like at school. If you go to school and or something like that, it might be quite different. [00:41:30] Um, and and some of these very conservative schools. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, there is some learning going on, still isn't there. But my my, uh, sample is very restricted. Yeah, um, one of the things that interested me was being in an institution. Uh, did you find your sense of hope diminished? Oh, yeah. [00:42:00] Oh, it was terrible. Well, I mean, the longest stint I had was three months, and so usually I was in for weeks, sometimes just for days, Um, and I, I think it was the kind of maybe not so much the institutional. That was pretty awful. But it was the outlook they gave you. And, um, I, you know, I was told at the age of 21 that I had a serious mental health problem [00:42:30] that I would have, um you know, episodes of mood swings for the rest of my life that I'd really have to lower my horizons for my career. And also that, actually, I should think twice about having Children. So, um, for a young person to be told that, you know, you probably wouldn't have [00:43:00] access to the two things that most young people or a lot of young people want. And that's, uh, ways of contributing through to the world through parenting and work. It was a real, um uh I mean, there's no better way to stuff up someone's sense of hope and purpose in life. And that kind of derailed me for a little while, but I didn't believe I mean then well, then, after a while, I seem to be struggling so long with these issues [00:43:30] that I I started to think, Well, maybe they're right about the stuff. And maybe I'll never be able to work. And maybe even if I want to have Children, I won't be able to, because I you know, I'm single and everything like that. And so um so, yeah, they they did a They do a great job at, um, stripping people's hope away. I mean, it's absolutely extraordinary. And, um, again, I think this stuff [00:44:00] still goes on a bit today. Uh, but this is a very common story. People say this again and again that they were given these really pessimistic prognosis. And of course, the belief was that once you had these conditions that affect you for the rest of your life, and the evidence suggests that. Actually, there's no real pattern. You can't predict any pattern to these things. They've got. Everyone's got their own [00:44:30] pattern. Yeah. And, you know, if you if you put the right elements, uh, in place in your life, um, you've got a pretty good chance of having a good life. Yeah. So can you talk a wee bit about how all these strands have come together in in the work that you do now? Well, the work I do is grounded in that kind of lived experience, but it's [00:45:00] it's more than that. It's grounded on the, um the kind of the principles and the beliefs of the movement of people with lived experience. And I guess it's very much like other movements. Um, that Say, Look, um, you know, we've been oppressed, and, you know, we want our self determination. We want to be able to live [00:45:30] the lives that we want and not to be pushed around by society and attitudes and by the control system that was the mental health system. Um, so I mean, there's a There's a myriad of ways of expressing those beliefs, I guess, or, um but But that's really the the foundation of my work is the belief that, um, that people [00:46:00] who have diagnoses of mental health problems are full human beings and, um, have the right to self determination. And that doesn't go down too well with, um, some people, Um uh, because, uh, the mental health system is really, uh, at its core. It's a system that controls [00:46:30] and contains people. I mean, if we had funding cuts, you know, say a lot of the funding was stripped away, you know, all the all the good services would go, and all the crappy social control services would remain because they're the core of it. Really? Yeah. But you must have seen a change over the last 10 15 years in terms of how mental health is dealt with in the wider society. I think there's, um there's been [00:47:00] a There's been quite a big shift, I think, in, uh, social attitudes towards mental health problems, Um, particularly the kind of what they call the high prevalence problems like depression and anxiety. Once you get down to the label of schizophrenia, it's not so marked, you know? I mean, um, but one of the really good things is that people are starting to talk more about the positive side of things [00:47:30] you know about well-being and so on. And, um and I think obviously, people with major mental health problems, um, can benefit as much from that positive psychology or that well-being stuff as anyone else. In fact, maybe more, you know? So I think I think that's been good. But I think, um, yeah, when I think about when I first started being an advocate in the late eighties, [00:48:00] um, there were some pretty awful community attitudes around them that I don't sort of see quite so much now, Yeah, How do they express themselves? Well, it's usually about, um, you know, people, you know, houses of mad people going and living next door. Uh, and that still goes on. I mean, there are still, um, communities that protest about this, but, oh, it was pretty vitriolic. Um, [00:48:30] back in the eighties. And of course, you know, the communities the So-called community was worried about because, you know, the government was announcing that the hospitals were closing, so there was a you know, there was a backlash against that. And now I think it's just accepted that you know people aren't going to be locked up forever and, um, that they do live in communities. And, you know, that's It's OK, really, [00:49:00] although you can never be too complacent about the, um, the return to institutionalisation. I mean, it's I think there's always a vague threat that it could happen. And that's because I think, um well, I So I still think there's a level of, um, discrimination out there, but I think it's got a lot better.
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