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My name is Mary Riches. I'm a communications student at Waikato University. Just finished my fourth year of a bachelor of communication studies and heading into master's next year, which I'm looking forward to. Where do you come from? I grew up in, which is a small town, Um, near Mount, um, National Park sort of area, um, but currently live in dry because my partner works in Auckland. So it's kind of halfway between Hamilton and Auckland. What was it like growing up in, um [00:00:30] pretty, pretty, isolated. Pretty, um, pretty. You know, um, rural, small town sort of situation, um, Queerness or, you know, gay role models were completely invisible and absent. I think so, Yeah. When did you realise that you may be gay? It's always a really interesting question, because I think in hindsight, when you, um when you look back and think, Oh, well, you kind of actually knew from a long time earlier, but I didn't really acknowledge [00:01:00] it or deal with it at all until I left home at 17 and moved to, of all places, which is not much bigger, but, um but it was a different town, so that was important. and, um, a new new social group and new connections and things. And then I was able to kind of explore my sexuality and things like that. So in Tai, how was gay or queerness seen? Did did you have any, um, idea about gayness or queerness when you were growing up? Um, it was interesting. [00:01:30] Um, we were just talking briefly about the use of the word gay, and I think very much growing up in the only thing I knew about being gay was that it was a horrible, negative kind of dirty thing. And something like you certainly didn't want to be, because the only kind of association I had with that word and that idea was that really negative kind of insult put down sort of thing. So, yeah, so, um, definitely nothing positive to be associated with gayness at all. Were you aware of any queer [00:02:00] people in town? Um, no. I. I wasn't at the time. And, um and it was only it's only looking back now that I realised that I was surrounded by Obviously there were other. I wasn't the only guy in the village, you know. There were heaps of other um, queer people around town, but they were completely invisible and absent. I think to me at the time from, um, from that perspective, then, yeah, looking back, I can see that they were actually there. And I'm [00:02:30] I'm frustrated that they were kind of absent because they would have been really important and, um, helpful role model to me, I think. So. How do you think the town would have handled it if if people were, like, more openly out? Um, I think there would have been a lot of sort of, um, you know, just kind of eye rolling kind of chat about, um you know, that that kind of guy over there sort of, you know, the town [00:03:00] spectacle or whatever. I think, Yeah, I don't know. But in saying that since, um, since coming out and coming and heading back to not living there permanently, but just being back there, I haven't actually encountered that much prejudice. Really? I think, um, yeah, I think sometimes, um, being silent, um, is more silencing than just, you know, if you just come out and you're just out in a town like that, it's actually not that big a deal, But it's just kind of that [00:03:30] kind of, um, kind of structure of silence that keeps people quiet anyway. So, yeah, that makes sense. Did you find growing up that you also had to participate in, um, you know, kind of like gay humour and calling people gay and stuff. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there's There's sort of a really funny, um, masculine culture which spends a lot of time talking about gayness and joking about gayness and kind of that high school boys thing of, like all the gay jokes and the kind of [00:04:00] gay situations and things And like, um, yeah, it's it's quite quite bizarre that there's, like, a really strong focus on gayness and yeah, but in a really negative sense. I think so. You moved to a new town, and then what happened? Um, so I moved to a new town, Um, which Yeah, like I said, is just another small town. But, um, but just being in a social group, where I was spending time with people who were a lot older than me, um and they [00:04:30] were people that I didn't have already, um, sort of those relationships with. So it was sort of a fresh start, new relationships to be built and that sort of thing. And, um so I was able to sort of engage with them on a different level, and I actually, um, one of my friends introduced me. She kind of had a thought that I might be gay. So she introduced me to, um, an older gay man who lived in the town. And, um, we just became really good friends, and he was sort of like a a massive role model to me, I suppose. And yeah, we just, um, [00:05:00] got on really well. And he Yeah, showed me, um I don't know. You know, um, just introduced me to the idea of, um, you know, being part of gay culture and just yeah, not having to be. I suppose so, Yeah. What was that like, Kind of discovering that kind of other culture. I really loved it. I kind of, um as soon as I found it, I was just kind of in love with it. It was [00:05:30] just so different to anything I'd experienced before, I think. And just Yeah, really, um, kind of liberating and exciting, I think. And, um, kind of homely I don't know. Like, um, Yeah, just kind of discovering it was kind of like, Yeah, I don't know. There's something quite kind of safe and homely about being in gay culture. I kind of found that. Yeah. Kind of fitted in. Is this one of the reasons which prompted you into your your research? [00:06:00] Yeah, I suppose so. Just, um, that awareness that, like, there are lots of people that grow up in small towns like me where, um, queen is silent and absent, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. And that, um that is a big problem. Yeah, definitely. Tell me about the research project. Yeah, OK, um, so? Well, well, it kind of started by just a conversation with a lecturer of mine who happened to be a gay man as well. Um, we talked about wanting to do [00:06:30] something like this, and he got in touch with Kevin Hague about maybe something that he might be interested in doing. And he said, um, well, he was like, Yeah, wonderful. I've actually been thinking about the same sort of things and the fact that, um, as he put it, that being, uh, an out gay man in New Zealand is is not really that difficult, um, for him and his experience, like it's something that's, um it's much better than it was, you know, 20 years ago. Um, but for young people, it's actually still really challenging. So, [00:07:00] um, so we need to look at how we can make that better. So that's how it kind of started out. And the name, which is kind of kind of sounds a bit clumsy if there's no context to it. Um, how do we make it better? Um, sort of came out of that idea that, um you remember the the, um it gets better project that went around, um, started in America. I think, um and so the idea was, Well, yeah, it does get better for most queer people. But how do we actually make it better now? [00:07:30] Like, how do we change the culture for young people? That it's It's just not so hard because all the statistics and the youth are C statistics and things like that all point to the fact that it's pretty tough for young people to be queer. Yeah, what are the statistics now in terms of things like, um, suicide and and bullying and violence and the UO seven statistics, which are probably the best ones currently in New Zealand, Um suggested that, um, queer youth are I think it's six times more [00:08:00] likely to commit suicide than their heterosexual peers. And, um, things like mental illness and, um, substance abuse and risky sexual behaviour all are a lot higher than their heterosexual peers. And so definitely much higher, um, risk factors for young people. What year did you start? The research, um, started at at the start of 2011? I think so. The start of last year. And what did it involve? It was basically, [00:08:30] Well, it was sort of a It started out as being an academic sort of project. Started out with a literature review type thing, looking at what, um other countries are doing and, um, their experiences of how to improve the situation and things like that, and also the statistics in New Zealand and how, um, queer youth are hearing in New Zealand. But then the major part was really to talk to, um, community activists and, um, community youth workers because we kind of felt that there are a lot of people in New Zealand doing really amazing things [00:09:00] with young people. And, um, like, for example, the QS, a network that's recently been established And, um, in Rainbow Youth. And, um, all these people that are really, um, really doing wonderful things, And it would be really great to talk to them because they are the people that really know what's going on and what we need And to be able to kind of bridge that gap between their kind of grassroots wisdom and, um, sort of policy making and that sort of thing and sort of, um, making those sort of, um, changes at that level as well. [00:09:30] So yeah. So, um, so we, um So the major part was to really to talk to them. So 22 people and just basically interview them and to ask them about, um what? The major problems they thought were facing queer youth and pretty much how we can improve the situation. What? What needs to be done with these face to face interviews? Um, yes. Mostly face to face interviews. Yeah, And was that across the country? Yeah. Yeah, it was, um, people from Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington, [00:10:00] um, Dunedin, Christchurch, and Nelson so tried to get a good spread of the country and also, um, a good spread in terms of age age. Um, And, uh, what people are doing within the community. So, um, talking to like, for example, student activists as well as, um, people who have been involved with the community for a long, long time as well as, um MP and people like that. So, had you ever done a project before where you had gone and talked to such a variety of people? No, never. [00:10:30] No. No. It was It was an amazing experience. Actually. I really, really enjoyed it. Just, um just the chance to talk to people with, like, such wisdom and such passion for what they were doing was Yeah, it's very cool, but no. And had you ever been involved in, um, such a kind of queer project before? No. No, I hadn't, actually, um, something I kind of talk about a little bit in the report. Is this kind of, um, it's what I call it the, um, discourse of silence. Where, [00:11:00] um, there's this idea that, like, good queer people or good gays don't really talk about being gay. That much like it's kind of, um, to be to be a good gay. You kind of, you know, like a good gay And as in, um, sort of in speech, Max. Good. Um, like you fit into heterosexual society, and you kind of you like, um, sort of pass, you know, like, um, yeah, um, So there's this idea that it's it's ok to be gay, but just kind of don't flaunt your sexuality. Don't push your gayness onto anybody [00:11:30] else. And so that's certainly my experience, especially in sort of more rural centres and things like that that Yeah, you're you're OK to be gay as long as you're sort of you straighten up and you carry on like the rest of us kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so when I first started talking about doing this project, my first kind of, um, gut reaction was kind of Oh, I I'd much rather talk about poverty or environmental issues or something that, you know, um wasn't so personal for me because there's [00:12:00] kind of that idea that you don't really want to talk about being gay or queen at all. So, um, so really doing this project was almost like a kind of second coming up for me. I think like it. Um, it totally changed my perspective on queer issues and just kind of really threw me into queer activism and the way that I was like, I just didn't want to engage with before. I think so. Yeah. It was very cool. I loved it. Did doing those face to face interviews kind of change you in any other way? [00:12:30] Kind of like personally in terms of how you react to people or your level of acceptance or things like that? Yeah. I think, um, it was hugely educational for me, too. And also not just doing doing those interviews, but as part of the project, I got to go along to some of these queer youth who that, um um QS a network is doing. But the first one I went to was Kaz, which was run by Rainbow Youth in Auckland. And, um, that was just It was completely an experience of queerness that [00:13:00] just I hadn't experienced at all before. Like, um, I think there's a really strong gay culture, which I've been a part of, which is sort of that, um Yeah, it sort of kind of celebrates straight acting, Um, sort of gay men, sort of. And it's It's almost, um yeah, it it's not. It's not really what I would call queer culture. It's gay culture sort of thing. Um, whereas this who was sort of my first experience of queer culture, which is [00:13:30] much more fluid in terms of the way gender and sexuality is looked at and that was, well, that just kind of really just blew me away. I was just really amazed by these young people that talk about gender and sexuality and just like, such a fluid way and just, um, just a really accepting and open and kind of it's kind of just natural for them this kind of fluid to it. Yeah, so, yeah, very educational for me. You mentioned coming out, and I'm wondering, how [00:14:00] did your family respond when you're doing such a queer project and and how did they respond to you? I suppose initially, you know, in terms of coming out and then in terms of like, just being out there with this this kind of project, Um I suppose initially, um, coming out like, um, like anyone I suppose there's kind of that initial, um, kind of shock and challenge. And, um yeah, and probably I had a lot of anxiety. My parents are Anglican [00:14:30] ministers, so they, um, sort of have a lot of kind of respect in the small town community. And so I was quite concerned about sort of the impact that would have on them. And the way people might respond to them is more than how they might respond to me. I think so. Um, so that was quite challenging. But I think doing this project has probably been quite a learning experience for them too, because I've been able to kind of kind of share all these insights that I've gained with them. And so my mom has become, like, the biggest sort of [00:15:00] you know, um um, queer as folk the P flag. Mum, she's kind of a little bit like that, Debbie. Yeah, and so she's all sort of raving and queer and activist now, which is really cool. So yeah, she actually just recently, um, came out in the newspaper and all her, Um, because she's an arch DEA in Taranaki now, And all her sort of robes um, in support of gay marriage and sort of saying that she wanted she couldn't wait for the church to [00:15:30] marry same sex couples and got a bit of flack for it. But I was real proud that she came out and did that. So yeah, so they're pretty supportive when you see that in in the newspaper. What do you think? How do you feel? I think it's really cool, because, um, something that I kind of really tried to emphasise, and something that I really learned when doing this project was the, um the power of silence and the power of invisibility and how marginalising that is. And like, like my experience of growing up and actually being surrounded by [00:16:00] queer people. But not seeing them is, um, I think probably one of the most marginalising things. I think so, Um, so something that I want to keep kind of pushing is that we have to keep being really visible and keep making statements and stuff. So yeah. So for her to come out and, like, make a public statement and to be really visible, I think is really good, and yeah, and I'm really frustrated that I think, um, my experience of the church is that a lot of people are really supportive, [00:16:30] but they don't say anything, and so their their silence is part of the problem. I think so, Yeah. So it's really important that she comes out and says, How long did the research take? Um, it's it took about. Well, we wanted to finish it for Hamilton Pride, which was in September of 2011. So we started at the start of the year. So it was about nine months, I suppose. Yeah. Just working part time. I did it as a a university paper. [00:17:00] Yeah, through the year. And what were the the the the kind of key learnings that that you got from the research? Um, well, we, uh we came up with a sort of, um it's probably about 20 recommendations which are kind of, um, policy recommendations as well as kind of, um, need for activism and visibility from within the community as well. And so, um, so there's a few different things like, um, for example, we [00:17:30] talked about the need for error reporting to be much more specific and much more actually doing something not just kind of this token stick. At the moment. There's a, um, a sort of a tick box exercise where schools have to say that they have policies to prevent bullying. Um, including homophobic bullying. But all it really is is kind of a check the box and you pass kind of thing. And so there's I don't think there's I'm suspicious that there isn't a lot of real, um, genuine engagement with homophobic bullying [00:18:00] from a lot of schools. And so So, um, that's something that I think really needs to be pushed. Um, as a kind of a policy thing. Um, was that something in your interviews with the support people in terms of, you know, what was homophobic? Bullying Quite prevalent. Yeah, definitely. I think, um, it was also, um, the idea of bullying was quite big in the media at the time when this was going through last year. Um, and there was a lot of frustration that people were talking about bullying, but [00:18:30] just talking about bullying and not talking about homophobic bullying, which is kind of quite quite separate and quite, um, significant, and probably actually much more, um, damaging and actually, probably much more um, present, then just, um, non homophobe bullying, I think. Yeah. Um, something else that people really talked about is the need to keep, um, keep doing those visible celebrations and things [00:19:00] like the big day out. And, um and they're also talking about bringing back the hero parade in Auckland, which is really cool to see and really exciting just because, um, those sorts of things, they're really nice for the queer community to sort of all rally together and, um, support each other. But they're also really important in terms of the media visibility that they get because, like, for example, the 14 year old boy growing up in that doesn't have any gay role models but can turn on the six o'clock news and see all these beautiful, queer people and just kind of have this idea that Oh, there's [00:19:30] this community out there which one day I just might find or might run into. And so, yeah, just that visibility, I think, is really important. And so keep pursuing that be great. But I guess that also leads on to the the trying to, I guess, influence the media so they don't necessarily just stereotypes that actually, they portray the breadth of of the queer community. Yeah. Yeah. And that was another concern that people raised Is that when you have just hero parades and things like that, that [00:20:00] the only images that get portrayed in the media are sort of these really hyper sexualized. Kind of, Um, yeah, um, just just specific queer identities that not everybody, like some people, certainly do want to identify with those identities, but not everybody. So that is definitely a concern that how do you get, um, how do you get visibility that is kind of genuine and reflective of the queer community is a challenge. Um, something that I kind of talk about a little bit in the report and something I quite [00:20:30] like to do. What to think about developing is the idea of, like a, um just like a a toolkit for media engagement for queer activists and queer communities and that sort of thing, or even like a, um uh, a spreadsheet of, um, sort of go to people in the queer community who can speak to media outlets and things like that and just kind of, um keep engaging with the media and keep getting that positive involvement and that kind of accurate representation and things like that. So, um, [00:21:00] yeah, just kind of making putting the steps in place so that we have all these. Really, um, great people who would be fantastic role models, but just kind of putting the steps in place so that they can be talking to the media in a in a positive way, I think would be something that's quite helpful in terms of re visibility. Yeah. Did any of your findings surprise you? I think from the very beginning, they probably all did. Like, I [00:21:30] think, um, even just realising, um, the statistics around queer suicide and things like that, I think. Yeah. Um, the whole lot just really I think I went into it. Really? Um, just a really ignorant, um white, middle class gay man, you know, and just, um yeah. So the whole lot was just really educational and surprising to me. I think you mentioned earlier that that the initial parts of the research were to look overseas and to see what other countries are doing and what they're up [00:22:00] to. And how does New Zealand compare to countries overseas? I think there are like, I think all every different country is sort of, um has really good things and really negative things. And so it be hard to sort of rank them, I'd say. But, um, like certainly Scandinavian countries seem to have, um, seem to be further ahead. I think, um, in my own view that they have a better kind of education systems and things like that about talking about, um, [00:22:30] gender and sexuality in schools, which is much less kind of heteronormative, which is very much the case in New Zealand. That education system is very kind of hem and, um, sort of masculine as well. So yeah, um, and also, there are some some great things in the States as well, sort of around whether the, um QS a model, which is something that I think is really important and really exciting came out of, um, the GS, a network in the States, which is the gay [00:23:00] straight alliance, rather than the QS A in New Zealand, which is the que straight alliance. Um, which is great and, um, probably most surprisingly to me was, um, Tasmania seems to have really, um, progressive and liberal, um, education policies and, um, community health policies, especially around sort of trans issues and things like that, which is, um, yeah, surprised me, but which is really cool and like, um, a model that New Zealand could take on. I think in lots of ways [00:23:30] it's interesting you mentioned about the GS a and QS A and the idea of labelling. And I'm wondering, you know, do you know why in the US it's called the Gay Straight Alliance, and in New Zealand, it's called the Queer Strait Alliance. I'm not I'm not too sure. I think in New Zealand we've really claimed the idea of queerness and the queer identity and kind of rejected the word gay as an all encompassing word. Whereas maybe in the States, [00:24:00] they're still holding kind of onto that notion of gay representing the queer community or what I would call the queer community. So I think it's just a difference in language use. Yeah, um, I think it would be quite strange for the QS a and its current model, which is very much queer to kind of call itself the GS A. It would Yeah, it would be very kind of strange, but Yeah. In your interviews around the country, what were the kind of words that that people were using to either label themselves or or people [00:24:30] they worked with? Um, I think probably there's an interesting generational thing. Maybe going on Whereas, um where perhaps, um the older generation of people I were talking to would identify as gay and lesbian and, um and sort of maybe use acronyms like LGBT, whereas, um, the younger people I would talk I was talking to would just talk about being queer or queer people queer and trans [00:25:00] Maybe, but yeah, um but just use yeah, queer or gender Queer is their kind of all encompassing terms. So I think there's an interesting generational shift there. And I think, um, for all the older generation, queer is a really funny word that they don't like to associate with. Like, I know my parents really struggle with me using the word queer because they think it's quite a a really negative word, whereas gay has got quite a positive kind of spin to it for them. Whereas for my generation, gay [00:25:30] certainly has a very negative connotation in terms of high school culture. And so queer is less so. And I think queer has a more positive connotation. And I also have to apologise because at the at the front of this interview, II, I said, Oh, and and you're gay. Um, and I was completely making a whole range of assumptions, so I apologise. Um, how would you identify yourself? Um, I would I would I still identify as gay, but I would say I'm gay. [00:26:00] Um, My, like my gay identity fits within a queer community rather than fitting within year. Do does that make sense? So, um, so queer being the kind of broader umbrella term. But my identity would still be gay, I suppose. Yeah. If that makes sense, what impact has your research had? Um, I hope that it's a valuable resource to people, [00:26:30] um, wanting to pursue change. But I don't know whether it's had too much impact just yet. There's still more sort of things we're hoping to pursue with it, which hopefully will have more impact. But yeah, I don't want it to be. I think there's a kind of a tendency with especially academic reports to kind of produce something and then to sort of talk about it for a little while, and then for it to sort of be forgotten or Yeah, and I think that would be unfortunate, because I think it would be a waste of, um, the people I was talking to, sort of a waste [00:27:00] of their time and their voice, which I think is really valuable and I hope is kind of heard and represented. Well, so yeah. Um, So, for example, some of the things we'll be pursuing, um, hopefully into the future is, um, looking at error reporting in its current state and how effective or not effective it is by, um, looking at policies around bullying and things like that. And hopefully, um, presenting some kind of evidence about why there needs to be a [00:27:30] change there and hopefully getting getting some kind of change that would see actual policies and actual programmes implemented into schools that would, um, that would actually address homophobe bullying rather than just suggest that it's not an issue in the school. Want to tick a box kind of thing? I have a feeling I have a feeling that, um, you're being a bit modest because I was at AAA thing the other night where, um, a member of Parliament, uh, was very heavily referencing your, uh, research. What [00:28:00] does that feel like for you to have a a sitting MP referencing your work? Yeah. Um, yeah, that was that was pretty cool. I love Jen Loy. She's so beautiful. She's Yeah. Um but, um, yeah, that that was really amazing. And, um, very cool to think that, um, it's serving kind of a purpose. Or like, um, something that can be useful or be referenceable for them. So yeah, [00:28:30] kind of embarrassing, too. Yeah. So what next for Maori. So hopefully we'll be able to pursue some more, um, kind of research around schools and that sort of thing. But, um, in the immediate future, I'll be heading back to uni next year and doing Master's project. And, yeah, carrying on with my studies, I really enjoy studying in university life. And so yeah, what are the kind of areas that you'd be interested in in in maybe doing more research on? [00:29:00] I'm really interested in ideas about language and, um, especially media and how you kind of frame the debate and how things are talked about and how ideas are constructed and kind of public discourse and public conversation. So, um, I'd like to look at how we can, um, kind of use that tool of language and framing issues to, um, break down this silencing and sort of heteronormative structures that we see really apparent in public discourse. I think [00:29:30] so. That would be something I'd I'd love to look at more into. Mhm. We're just coming to the end of the Marriage Equality Conference, which we've been attending over the last couple of days. How has that been for you? It's been really cool. Actually, I, um I was kind of when the marriage equality, um, sort of movement started off. I kind of was. I kind of felt a bit funny about it. I kind of thought, um of all the issues for the queer community to sort of rally behind and kind of, [00:30:00] um, get active about. I kind of didn't think that marriage equality was the most important one. I sort of I would say, um just youth issues and, um, bullying and silencing and those sorts of things is actually and suicide is actually way more important than two people's right to get married. which is which is important for sure, but just Yeah, in the scheme of things, I wasn't sure it was the most the priority. But, um, I think it's been really, [00:30:30] really helpful and really important. Just, um, I've been really amazed at how the community has really got behind it and sort of kind of gone through this re coming out process where they've all sort of, um I've been amazed to see my friends who have really struggled to talk about their queerness in the past to kind of, um, write submissions that are, like, incredibly powerful and just have me bawling my eyes out when I read them. Just really, um, sharing their story. And I think it's been really empowering [00:31:00] for, um, queer people to just come out and campaign behind this issue and to kind of come together and in the process. I think it is breaking down all those issues around silence and heteronormative because we're kind of challenging that kind of marginalisation by talking about this issue and pursuing it and saying that this is, um that we you know, we want equality. That's kind of our right as citizens. And so yeah, I think it's been like it's been a um it's given, [00:31:30] like, huge energy and growth to the community, even though it's probably not something I initially expected to be, um, really important or really powerful. I think it definitely has been.
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