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Um I am not pretty serious here. He couldn't be here tonight. He had a to go to at home. So you got me tonight instead? My name is and I'm gonna just explain some of the things that we do because we live in a bicultural country. So the first one or I'm going to do and don't get it confused with the prayer. It's something that just goes forth and it [00:00:30] talks about the three baskets of knowledge that were brought here for all people. And we talk about a god or a demigod or whatever you like. However, you like to personify that his name is and he brought back from the heavens three baskets. The first one was to say, Whatever your talent is, use it to the best of your ability. And don't let anyone [00:01:00] try and trample it. The second one says people will. There are other things. But the second one also reminds you of your mortality that you have a time to do it. And it's now the third one says this no matter how hard it is, there are always people who love you. You will always have friends. And remember those people when things are [00:01:30] really tough. And these three baskets those seeds were planted in Papa Mother Earth. And because of that, the people could arrive into this world into the world of light. So then [00:02:00] you need to hit your height. [00:02:30] The next is to say to all those who have lost people, no matter who you are, that there is a time of mourning. But there is also a time to rejoice. And if you've ever been to a Maori, we do both [00:03:00] in our and now to you, to all the people who are here. [00:03:30] I just said that there is a building over there which we call the Beehive. And often it was translated that [00:04:00] it is the honey house. But let you let me remind you, it was also the House of States. [00:04:30] Get out of to men and women to those who are transgender and those who are taken on that journey. Do we greet you? I have No, I have No. [00:05:00] No matter who you are, no matter where you are from, you are on. And let me please define this word to weave the people. [00:05:30] If we the singers are coming down, you know? [00:06:00] Yeah, [00:06:30] [00:07:00] [00:07:30] [00:08:00] [00:08:30] But then I go through, Um I forgot to actually mention one person who is very important. Someone who fought for us during the eighties when it was really difficult. I would like to acknowledge Fran wild here tonight to say thank you for what you did for us [00:09:00] was without with what you did, we would not be here tonight. Thank you. The the order for those who have gone before us let them be together. [00:09:30] But this is our chance now, as the living to make the changes. Not so will that we will be remembered not as individuals, but as the Children, the gay Children that are being born tonight, the gay Children who don't know it yet and are going to go through very hard times. We have to be there for them. [00:10:00] Thank you. Yeah. [00:10:30] [00:11:00] Um um, don't worry. We have, um we get on. Well, we get on. Well, um, as you know, um, I put my name up to be, um, speaker And, uh, what, you might not know, but I did. And when I get that, uh, that job is up to my colleagues [00:11:30] from across the house not from my colleagues, Um, that I sit with in the party and something struck me, Uh uh, a couple of weeks ago, uh, about why we why we do what we do regardless of whether we're a national or or labour or the Greens or New Zealand first or whoever. And it was when Jan, uh, rang me and asked me to cosponsor this evening. [00:12:00] And II I was wondering why why should I cosponsor it? And she And she told me that, um, the speaker of the house and I'm and I'm always getting into trouble. So So? So here we go again. Lockwood, Um, Lockwood. She basically said, uh, to Jan, uh, That, uh, she couldn't not host this on her own because it was too political. [00:12:30] And, um, But when I stepped in to co-host, it was OK, um, and I think that's terribly, terribly wrong. Uh, she, uh, is an MP. Just like me. Has the same mama as an MP. As I do, uh, has has every right to use these, uh, halls, um, on behalf of [00:13:00] whoever she thinks, uh, wants to use them in in any way, as long as it's, uh, in a respectful manner. So my shot across the bow tonight is actually not about what we're here to talk about, but is about the House of Representatives, because it is a house of Representatives. And, you know, back in 93 when I when I came in here, um, I was only 33 years old. I had a full head of hair a lot. [00:13:30] It's a lot slimmer. Um, and and I was told by an old, uh on the very day that I gave my maiden speech, he pointed to the side door, Uh, if you if you look at the front of this building, uh, and you look to the left of the stairs, there is actually a door there, but you can't go through it anymore. That's where my grand, my great grandfather and a number of his colleagues had to go through [00:14:00] it couldn't go through the main door. Um, it was only for a short while, but it. But it said to me that Hey, um, every year, every every new person in here, like myself, and like, jab, we're here to knock down a few walls. We're here to open up a few doors along the way, and some people might not agree with us. Some people will agree with with with us. Um, thank God for Louisa. Louisa. Um, and, [00:14:30] uh, the courage that she, um, has basically shown the house that, um every day is the time for equal opportunities, Every day is the time for equal rights. You know, I grew up in the in the so-called movement, basically, because I thought it was romantic. Um, you know, fight the good fight and all of that. That was cool. Um, and it was the, uh, you know, we were young and we were [00:15:00] and full of full of energy. And and, um and I and I learned, uh, AAA saying back then in the seventies and eighties, and it was no one is free until we're all free. And I hold that to be true, uh, to to everything that we do. And it might be, uh, on the Tory side. Uh, it might be on the red side. Might be on the green side. Might be on the black and white [00:15:30] side. Um, what are the colours of red and black side and might be on the Maori party side. Um, it could be on the side. Um, who knows? Um, but I think that that, uh, uh, Jan uh, calling this meeting and hosting this meeting, this is she is the host. I'm I. I refuse to believe that I'm a co-host. Um, she's the host. And so, uh, big [00:16:00] ups to Jan for wanting to use What is the House of Representatives for AAA An issue, Uh, that, I'm sure will be talked around about around the world when we come to our senses in a couple of months time, and we all vote Well, most of us vote in favour, Uh, of Luisa's bill. Um, to my, uh I don't know how to, um, ex explain this. I mean, I've got my colleagues here, my parliamentary colleagues, but I also have two. [00:16:30] I suppose colleagues, uh, Fran and Catherine, uh, who have, uh, graced these These halls, uh, before me, uh, and did a a damn good job before me as well. Um, welcome. Welcome back. And, uh, I was told to keep it short. You know, they're not even here, and they're still giving me orders. Um, but that's OK, because, [00:17:00] uh, I'll tell you what, I. I don't despise any member of Parliament. Even Trevor? No, Um because I reckon. And I believe and I will hold to this till the day I die that every member of Parliament comes in here wanting to change the world. However they see fit. And And I take my hat off to, uh, MP S from the past. And I [00:17:30] say to those of you, uh, who want to be members of parliament, go for it. It it it is a great job. It is a privilege to to do the job. And, um, I hope to be speaker in a couple of months. Um, I know some some, you know, in in in my heart of hearts, it most probably won't happen because the establishment won't let it happen. You know, I I'm I. I I'm I'm not I don't see myself as part of the box. I see [00:18:00] myself sometimes outside the box. Anyway, have a good, uh, tonight, Uh, have a good um and, uh, Jan your turn to tell me to sit down. Brilliant. Um, so this is and I also just to say that for me, that what was saying about the principle of this being an open space is actually a really important principle. And it is a principle [00:18:30] for me. I am here at the behest of the community. It was a big word to use at this time of day, but, um, you know that this is a community space. This is a space where all of us should be able to come and contest our ideas, and that should not be a restrictive space. So I'm really thankful for for enabling this to happen and, you know, and for me being lucky enough to have the privilege of being able to be the conduit for that to happen, [00:19:00] Um so this today, you know the time we're in at the moment, it's really a defining time for New Zealand as marriage equality is being debated by Parliament. Obviously, Um, and I think the panel discussion tonight is the opening of the Marriage Equality Conference, Um, which is bringing together tonight? Um, some quite amazing people who have championed the rights of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, [00:19:30] transgender and intersex people in our country for over 30 years. It's I think this is a pretty sacred space, actually, for 30 years of people fighting for all of our rights, that's a very precious opportunity to be able to reflect and acknowledge and look forward. Um, we have tonight the honourable Fran Wilde, who was the leader of the parliamentary campaign for Homosexual Law Reform, which decriminalised [00:20:00] male sexual act homosexual activity in 86. The honourable Catherine O'Regan, who was the leader of the parliamentary campaign for broadening the human rights legislation to outlaw discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in 1994. Tim Barnett, who was the leader of the parliamentary campaign for prostitution Law reform in 2003 and civil unions in 2004. [00:20:30] And, of course, our current Wonderful of Wall, who's the leader of the current parliamentary campaign. And tonight we're also gonna have the, um, rather wonderful Sir Ian McAllen speaking to us by video who, you know, I think of as our red shirt wearing global champion of half and scream. So it's a pretty amazing lineup, and I feel really privileged to be able to, you know, consider myself, or at least use the name of host to such incredible [00:21:00] people. Um, I'd also like to just acknowledge in that space. Um, Georgina Baer, who, by being elected as the first transgender transsexual member of Parliament anywhere in the world, made headlines around the entire world and opened up possibilities for Children everywhere to be able to be themselves in a way that was never possible before that happening. [00:21:30] And while she was here, I believe she set a real example of integrity and honour and made a real difference in this house. So I'd like to acknowledge her. And, of course, my wonderful colleague, Green Party colleague Kevin Hague, who you know from it's has been really involved in these campaigns from outside of Parliament and is now here in Parliament taking the other side of this and had his bill in the ballot [00:22:00] to try and increase the chances of marriage, equality happening. And, you know, we're happy Lewis's bill got drawn because it's all about the same the same battle. And Kevin is as much a leader in this, I think as anyone. Um, so I'm you know, I know everyone's here to hear, hear everyone else. I just have a few other things to say, Um, but I and I just want to say, You know, I'm almost embarrassed to be hosting such luminaries when I feel like I'm such a new be to [00:22:30] all of this. Um, but for all that, it's rather great. Um, you know, and it's and one of the reasons I'm really loving it is because and I shouldn't have used that phrase. Um, but it's good to remember that what this Parliament does can make a real difference. You know that it can make a difference to individuals, to families and entire communities and while removing discriminatory laws. I'm not gonna pretend for a second [00:23:00] that that's going to finish discrimination, and it's really important to acknowledge that otherwise we'll actually just keep hiding the discrimination. But what it does is removes a foundation that allows that discrimination to keep itself alive. And for me, that is so important. And actually, it's also good to acknowledge that what this Parliament does can make a real difference globally, and the world at the moment is dividing [00:23:30] in two directions. There is a conservative, regressive force that's being led by Russia that is trying to squash the progress of sexual orientation and gender identity rights and put over the top squash it by this belief that traditional values are incompatible with sexual orientation, rights and gender identity. So I'm very grateful to be in this country [00:24:00] where so much work has been done to uncover the traditional stories and the traditional values that acknowledge Tak and acknowledge our diverse identities. And New Zealand, I think, has a really important role to play in that. And it's been great with and to be able to be a little part of that in terms of challenging what's happening in Uganda at the moment. And we can do that from a place of the progress that New Zealand has made thanks [00:24:30] to these people in the front row, each and every one of you. Um and it's, I think, also just a really wonderful opportunity to while I'm somebody that likes movements and collective collectivity, it is it's nice even for me to be able to acknowledge individual leadership. It's not often I do that, but tonight is for me really one of those times because, um, I know like the Green Party has policy on sexual orientation and gender [00:25:00] identity rights, which means for us that any of these votes it's party policy. We don't have to separate ourselves out. We have that base as a caucus, but no other party has that base. So every time one of those MP S stands up, I think it's a huge act of courage because it's standing up where there is no policy base, not having that unanimous support behind you to act. And that is something I think [00:25:30] that we should celebrate. Is that courage and that leadership? Um, yeah, So it's an honour for me tonight to be able to co-host these exceptional leaders. We're obviously not at the end of the journey. We still have to pass marriage. Equality feels like a done deal, but I know that that's Lewis will be going. Don't say that he jinx it, but, um, and we still need to clarify gender identity within our human rights [00:26:00] legislation as a basis for non-discrimination and get rid of a raft of other discriminatory policies that are discriminating against transgender and transsexual people. But I am so pleased after the day I've had to be able to take some time out and just soak in some success stories and believe that a world entirely free of discrimination might just be around the corner because so much [00:26:30] has been done in 30 years. So, so much more is possible in the next 30. So thank you all for coming And for our wonderful speakers for being the examples you are and welcome to the Marriage Equality Conference. [00:27:00] My name is and and I'm the conference chair. Conference is officially open. Thank you to and Jan for hosting us here tonight. Thank you to and for the Maori. Welcome in the song. And finally thank you to all of you who have come here tonight and participated in conference. We do have an amazing agenda lined up for you this weekend And while Sir Ian McKellen couldn't be here at the Hobbit premier Sorry. [00:27:30] Couldn't be at the Hobbit premiere this week. We have him here and he has a special a special message for you all. Hello. This is Ian McKellen and I'm in London. Ever since New Zealand gave women the vote before any other country in the world, the rest of the world has looked in New Zealand for social advance. And here we are again, and this time, with the exciting prospect [00:28:00] of the possibility of people of the same gender being able to get married and join the rest of the population. It will be a popular move. I know. And I'm glad that all major political parties have embraced it. Supported? I know, too by, uh, the younger generation who say things a lot more clearly than people of my age. Anyway, my support is with you. And And I hope that by the time I get back to middle Earth, um, I [00:28:30] might even be able to get married. Yeah, Um, just like, um So I said that, um, he'd like to be able to come back and off, sort of get married. And, uh, so tonight it's everything's been complimentary, but a or a conference need support. [00:29:00] I have a few other people have. We're gonna pass it around if you can. If you have. If you can put a donation of something would be really good. If you can't do it tonight, bring it tomorrow. Bring it Sunday. We don't mind. So I think this is, by the way, this is Bill Logan's idea. It's not mine. So you have to do it. So I'm gonna I pass my head. I'm not even gonna look for now. [00:29:30] So thank you. Thank you for hosting us and and thank you all for coming here today. And thank you for your belief in equality. Are there so many people who should be acknowledged and aren't going to be, uh, two people here who haven't been mentioned are Des and John, who've just been here forever. Um, no. [00:30:00] Hey, we've got an amazing group of guests today. These are the former MP S who fronted the reforms of the last 30 years the reforms which have been a crucial part of that huge cultural shift which has started to transform the lives of those of us who don't fit the heterosexual norm. [00:30:30] The pivotal event was the homosexual law reform of 1984 85 which resulted in the removal of criminal sanctions against gay men. This was 16 months of ferment in which hundreds of thousands of people in this country started to treat non heterosexuals [00:31:00] decently. Fran Wild's role in that was central and irreplaceable. And I must say that as social Democrats go, she was damned good to work with too. I love you. She went on to be a Cabinet minister and then mayor of Wellington and CEO of Trade New Zealand. And she's currently [00:31:30] chair of the Wellington Regional Council. So the floor and, um um, we were asked to speak for 15 minutes, and I thought it might be a good idea to speak for a little less, and then we have some conversation. Is that all right? But I will just give you a couple of thoughts about how things happened. [00:32:00] You know, from my perspective, Um, there were several parties needed to get gay law reform through. And remember that when this bill was introduced, it had the human rights part in it, too, and we couldn't get that through. And I think MP S voted that down, and that was the kind of insurance policy as they saw it. So thank you. Others who came later and and, um, you know, fix that. But first of all, [00:32:30] yes, they needed an MP who would not only introduce it, but see it through and lead the fight if you want here. And that MP needed people in the house on both sides of the house. Who would be the champions, and Catherine of course, was on the other side of the house, but was the most staunch champion and worked with me and the other MP S to get the coalition together here and then And the most important party [00:33:00] I think was the gay community, gay and lesbian community. Um, this bill would not have gone through without people coming out. It was visibility that made this bill happen, because up until then, uh, there had been several attempts to get Gayla reform through. And I just want to acknowledge, you know, that there were a number of MP S performing, particularly young, tried and Warren free. We were just trying to think who else did? There will be some historians in the audience who will know, but, [00:33:30] um, it really required, um, the majority of New Zealanders to actually understand that there was nothing in this that was going to have any impact on them whatsoever, except possibly that their workmates or their, um, brothers or or their sons might actually have a better life. But there was no negative impact for other people. And to do that, they had to see that the stereotype [00:34:00] that had been put up about gay people for a long time. Um, it all my life that I can remember was not actually true. And, um So during the course of the bill, from the time it was introduced, more and more gay men came out, and I personally saw a shift in people that I knew shift in their opinion shift in their views as they suddenly began to realise [00:34:30] that you know, the guy they worked with or, you know, the the neighbour or people just ordinary kiwis were actually gay, and they were really nice people. Um wow. Um, and they weren't child molesters. And, you know, they they This was really, really critical. I cannot tell you how important that was. And so, um, there was a huge campaign and I I mean, I could talk to you for about three hours on this, so I won't, [00:35:00] um, happy to answer questions. But just to tell you that that was the most important thing, it was people standing up for their own human rights. Actually, that got this bill through. And we had to convince members of Parliament that the electorate would not punish them for voting for us. That was effectively what it was when it was introduced. Um, the first read in those days, unlike today, there was a kind of a gentleman's agreement, and it was gentleman's because there were mainly men in the house who, [00:35:30] um, that that when you when a private members bill was introduced, it always got a first reading. And then and then later on, it was just torpedo at the select committee. Basically, they never saw the light of day again. So I kind of counted on the on getting it introduced. But I knew that on the day it was introduced, if we'd had the third reading that day, it would have been completely obliterated. There were, I think, 19 MP S that we knew we could count on to vote for it on that day and then [00:36:00] graduate. So we knew that between the first reading and the third reading, we had to actually build up those numbers, and we it wasn't necessarily just by directly lobbying the MP S ourselves, that wasn't going to cut it. It was actually by their electorates, giving them permission to vote for it. And how did we did do that? By giving the people in their electorate. Um, a new view of the gay community in New Zealand. So this was a massive campaign. I mean, my I was the party whip [00:36:30] at the time, which was really useful in terms of getting the bill through. I have to say you parliamentarians will know what it means about leave and that sort of stuff. Um, giving the right people leave on the right day was important for me. So we got lots of invitations for people like Norm Jones to go and speak all over the country on Wednesdays. Um, and he always got leave from, you know, both the works were very helpful. Um, and so, um, you know, it was about [00:37:00] people. We had this huge campaign, and we we targeted public opinion, basically. And so there was an educational side. There was we had masses of leaders coming in. Des des was one of the volunteers actually in my office, and we just had, uh I it was so big. I don't want to begin to describe it. And now it was a massive campaign, and we had it was kind of quite well run, I think, and we had groups all over the country and the gay community organise themselves, [00:37:30] and they did all of this thing in their communities. But I cannot emphasise enough how important it was for those brave people who were illegal at the time. Some of you here tonight, um, to actually publicly say I'm gay and I'm proud of it. And this legislation has to come through because it's about me as a New Zealander being 100% New Zealand, and that was what it was about. So I just want to thank you. Actually, tonight this is my opportunity again to thank the gay community at the time for doing what they did. It was an incredible [00:38:00] thing to ask of a person, some that these guys were in really small communities. Uh, very conservative, you know, traditional, quite homophobic, I suspect. And they actually were, were had the the you know, they were brave enough to come out and say, Yes, it's it matters. I'm going to do this, um, and not hide away anymore. And so, um, we watched that there was the homophobia was huge, as as I personally think, it's got better in New [00:38:30] Zealand. But there is still a strong element. And the fundamentalist churches were just on the rampage. It was scary what they were doing. And so it wasn't just, um uh, kind of, um it was actually physical bravery for people to do that to declare who they were. At that time, there was a real danger that they would be hurt in some way. So I, um, Bill, I'm not gonna I I've I can lots of war stories, [00:39:00] but maybe we hear the other speakers, and then we can have some discussion. Is that all right with you? I just want to salute Louisa, because this is another part of the jigsaw puzzle that we have to put together in this country. Um uh, we've had the other bits of legislation that were mentioned tonight, and, um, the other panellists have been responsible for helping get that through with that community support. And there is still more to go. I think the transgender, um um [00:39:30] the way transgender people are treated in the law in New Zealand is not acceptable. I think there's a lot of things we still have to do. And I suppose the gay law reform was kind of like the linchpin to start all of that, but there's still a long way to go. So, Lewis, I do wish you luck with the with the bill been watching your, um your struggles with great interest and particularly with your own Pacifica people. It's really hard when it's your own people saying that to you so good on you and more strength to you. So [00:40:00] thank you, everyone for tonight for coming. And let's have a discussion. We've always sought allies from across the political spectrum and especially from the liberal wing of the National Party. Then Young and George Gere, uh, played honourable roles. Our next [00:40:30] guest was a four term member of Parliament, responsible in 1993 I think, for getting through the extension of the human rights legislation to protect against discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation or HIV status. Mostly. So I want to introduce the honourable Catherine O'Regan. Mm. [00:41:00] Good evening, everybody. And thank you for the invitation to come and speak at this very important conference. And Fran has certainly brought back lots of memories for me, things that I'd forgotten about. And, um, I want to acknowledge first of all my colleagues, particularly Fran and Tim and and Lea and I'm delighted to share the platform tonight with them. I recently shared a platform with Louisa [00:41:30] at, um, Marilyn 60th birthday party in Auckland. And, uh, that was a lot of fun saying really nice things about Marilyn. And, uh, it was good for her to have to sit and listen for for two days, which she doesn't normally like doing. So, um um, thank you. And I want to start by first of all, apologising to transgender people for not including you in that bill. We did discuss it a lot, [00:42:00] and I thought, I'm only going to get this far this time. It was a bit like Fran was just saying now that when she introduced the complete homosexual law Reform bill, we had the part about human rights the house would only go so far. And rather than lose the whole or you had to lose something, And I'm afraid that I think that the transgender issue was just that little bit too far. I would love to have done [00:42:30] it, And I hope that somebody does that very soon. Um, Fran was very brave doing what she did. Because I remember all sorts of things happened to her. Um, disgraceful, disgusting things I didn't think people could be. So, um, unkind. And, um, it was not good at all. However, being a conservative from a conservative party, it was quite interesting on the last, um, on the last vote, I'm not sure I couldn't find how many of us from [00:43:00] the Tory party came over and voted. I know that there were 11 in the first reading that supported the bill. Um, but at the end, I found myself squeezed into a seat with I think it was Judy Keel and her bench mate. And there were the three of us in there. I did this for support because I don't think I had much from my own colleagues by that stage. Norm Jones, of course, would rail on in the in the lobby about it, and, uh, what was interesting? I heard a lot of stories [00:43:30] that the men told me or confided in me about things that had happened to them when they were boys, and I think it coloured their thinking a great deal. So, um, but, uh, at that stage I shared my seat with Judy. It was probably the closest I ever got to being, um, a part of the, um the red scene, so to speak. So however, however, now somebody once said to me, um, how did you, um, you know, have you always been a Tory? Have you been or and have you always been a liberal [00:44:00] on particularly on issues about gay rights? So I guess the answer to both of those is yes. And, um, I've always been a fan of Oscar Wilde and since I was a young girl And, of course, his life was a wonderful, wonderfully sad life. Um, and, uh, at the time, back in 1972 I watched the, uh, naked civil servant. I'd not long been married, and I watched the film about Quentin Crisp and I on television, and I [00:44:30] had not long had a son. And I was hanging out the nappies on the clothes line on a crisp morning. And I was thinking about the film from the night before, and I thought to myself, What would I say to that little lad if he came to me and said he was gay? There's No way I could say, um, you you can't be and all of the rest of it. And I hope that we, my husband and I at that time would create an environment where if he ever felt he had to confide in us, that he could come [00:45:00] to us. However, I didn't know I was going to Parliament, and I didn't know I was going to end up doing what I did. So this evening we've been asked to do a legislative retrospective on how things were at the given time and in relation to events which took place at the time. And my time was 1992 post election of 1991. Uh, when the National Party became the government and Jim Bulger was the prime minister. I was appointed a minister outside Cabinet with responsibility for a consumer affairs. [00:45:30] But I had an associate role as M as associate health, and Simon Upton was the lead minister at the time. Now my role was to, um uh, that I've been given was, uh, communicable diseases, uh, area, and certainly with sexual matters to do with sexual health Now, at the time, you may recall some of you will that the figures for HIV aids were increasing. And as it is today, it was men who have sex with men who were the highest of the numbers. And the best line of defence [00:46:00] then and still is today is to wear a condom. And the message hasn't changed. Bodies involved in advising the health ministers and Fran set a lot of these up because was it Fran, or was it the Minister of health at the time? Fran, who set that was in New Zealand. Um, there was the National Council on AIDS and and, um Others. Now, New Zealand AIDS Foundation was established in those early days, and it was under strong and intelligent leadership. Um, with [00:46:30] Warren Lindbergh, The National Council on AIDS, which was established under the Labour government, continued through my time. And I had Peggy Coopman. Boyden was the chair and she was a a AAA in this on this issue, Uh, it consisted of veo researchers, AIDS Foundation people, Kevin Hague At one stage, I think, was on the National foundation on the National Council too. And even religious people, I think, on that council for a while, public policies [00:47:00] people and and they kept ministers and government informed and enabled us to make appropriate decisions. Now I was advised, because people with HIV AIDS or those who feel that they had it, did not have any protection against discrimination. They are unwilling to present for tests because of the fear of exposure and of its consequences. There was this constant prejudice, fueled by the fear and ignorance. Fear to face the truth on behalf of those who are at risk [00:47:30] fear to come forward, fear of exposure, fear of finding out fear of losing friends. The problem of under testing, we were told, was that it had serious implications for HIV prevention. Since individuals who are ignorant of their health status may unknowingly put others at risk. Studies showed that those who were informed and counselled were more likely to adopt safe sex practises around about that time. [00:48:00] Police Police Commissioner Jamison was the uh was not very sympathetic to my call. I called him into my office and I can't believe I did this. I called him. I called him into my office and ripped into him and said he was to stop the, um uh, resting men around the bogs in the Auckland. This was and the the foundation workers were being arrested as well for getting out the message. Trying to trying to stop people from, uh, well, giving out condoms, [00:48:30] even at the very most. So I hauled him in, and I had the I don't know how I got the courage to do it, because I look back down. I called him in and I told him off. Oh, dear. Ok, so he even made a personal submission, Um, to the bill. Uh, obviously didn't like what I was doing at all to know what happened. There had been a Human Rights Commission amendment bill in the House introduced by the then minister. [00:49:00] Um, this was prior, prior to 91 Justice Minister Bill Jeffries. But it lapsed at the time of the change of government in 1991. Doug Graham had responsibility now for a new piece of legislation which, amongst other things, brought the race relations under the Human Rights Commission, and he also removed some other things that the Jeffries Bill sought to do. And the national government didn't agree with. I wouldn't I didn't bother going through what those were the new bill included disability [00:49:30] age, political opinion and various other matters, including the two clauses that I wanted to, um and and make sure we were there. And that was on sexual orientation and having diseases in the body, which may cause illness. Now the National Party National Cabinet signed off on it other than Graham Lee, and he wasn't there. But Johnny Banks was in cabinet. Um, but it did fall at the caucus gate. After a great deal of discussion and heated debate. The [00:50:00] two clauses were put to the vote. Uh, and they decided against including the clauses in the bill to introduce into the House. The vote was only too short 25 23. So it was very, very close. The National Party was clearly split, but it was a majority. Nevertheless, this meant that the bill that Doug Graham would be introducing would be done without these two important clauses. This disappointed me, as you can imagine, and the New Zealand AIDS Foundation expressed their dismay as I knew they would. However, [00:50:30] all was not lost. There were discussions a foot to ensure that somehow those clauses would be included. Speculation on how featured in several newspapers at the time. So how would I, as an individual amend the legislation? I was a minister. Ministers can't introduce private members bills. Um, but that would have to be a back bencher that did that. Um and the reason for that is that as being a minister, I was a part of the executive, and Parliament is for members, [00:51:00] not for the executive. Besides that process of private members, Bills was along and talked to his path, even for a backbencher. No things needed to move then and straight away. And it seemed appropriate to me that we did it when the bill was in the select committee and we'd get on with the job. So we finally came up with a solution. And I. I think it was just something we talked about a great deal. As the minister of justice and minister in charge of the legislation, Doug would introduce the bill. And during the debate, [00:51:30] I would give notice that I intended to introduce an amendment in the form of a supplementary order paper later in the process, and I was to invite the Select committee to call for submissions on the matter, the clauses would be a conscience vote in the House. This was checked out to be constitutional. But even today I think it has created some interest. Um, because there would be some debate around this method. But the clerk of the House's view was sought, and he didn't see [00:52:00] anything wrong with it. I don't think it's been done before, and I don't think it's been done since. So, um, it might be worth remembering if you need to. From the start, I had emphasised the health aspect of the need of this legislation in an attempt to persuade the Doubters. Later in my speech to the House, I said that I was seeking to amend the bill not only on the grounds of human rights but also on the grounds of public health and the health of individuals. Now, the results of a poll commissioned by the [00:52:30] AIDS Foundation, undertaken by a GB McNair, was released in the late November early December 1992 and indicated just how far the populace had moved on this issue. From the time when Fran had had introduced homosexual law reform, the sky had not fallen in after the law reform in 86 and people felt comfortable about the proposed changes. Mr. Jamison didn't like that at all. Neither did Mr Banks. So, um, the bill was duly introduced on the 15th of December [00:53:00] and read a first time and sent off to the Select committee. Now the Select Committee sent it, Established a subcommittee to hear the bill. And I spent some time today in these hallowed halls, actually in the labour in the opposition lobby, climbing the ladder, reading the debates from that time because I couldn't remember who was who were the people involved. So I thought I better get this right now. The Select committee was chaired by Graham Reeves, and the subcommittee was formed [00:53:30] with Graeme Reeves and the chair John Robertson from the National Party and and and Graeme Reeves, um, Leanne Dalal and Steve Mahay. Now, uh, the the members, the there were staff who actually really served us served that committee really well. Janice Lowe in particular, Margaret Nixon and good old Walter Isles. They helped me with the wording of the bill because it was almost like a a minister's private bill, in a way, in a strange [00:54:00] sort of way. So I had to get help from the clerk's office to word it. Appropriately. Now, 700 submissions were received. 640 of those submissions received were about the the supplementary order paper. Now, this wasn't even in the house. The committee to be discussed. This is a sort of Clayton's amendment. I called it an amendment you have when you don't have an amendment. I had not introduced my supplementary order paper, and it wouldn't be done until the bill [00:54:30] was reported back to the House and in committee stages. That's when amendments are made at committee stages. So I hadn't done. I had just given notice that I was intending to do this, and I called upon the select committee. Um, if they and their wisdom could please, um, please call for submissions. And it would appear that, um, the chairman of the committee believed that it was quite within the competence of the committee to hear submissions and was happy to call for [00:55:00] them. So I was very, very pleased indeed. Now they heard submissions amidst a storm of anti homosexual rhetoric, which, no doubt you have all hearing again now. Uh, but Thankfully, it wasn't as bad as Fran had to put up with Graham Lee was with Graham. Capel spoke out and campaigned against it, as did John Banks. As a reporter said at the time. While this while there'll still be a battle, it's unlikely to bring the same all out war as before. And [00:55:30] one of my colleagues, backbench colleagues Peter Hilt, called for my resignation. I was really terrified about that. At one point in late February, I felt the necessity to reiterate publicly again the reasons behind the legislation and attempt to dispel the myths which had once again risen to the top of the murky misinformation pond. To my rescue came a very high profile human rights international human rights lawyer in the shape of the honourable justice Michael [00:56:00] Kirby of the High Court of Australia, who flew across the Tasman to help with lobbying in his own inimitable fashion. When the bill was reported back to the house in 93 I was sure we had the numbers and although just over half of my caucus did not support it with the majority of labour, MP S who did it was clear that this was going to become law. Today I find myself on the Waikato Diocese synod. And yes, the issue of ordination of gay ministers has hit the Anglican world. Britain is still getting [00:56:30] only used to women and still won't have women bishops. So But I digress. At a synod meeting last year, I found myself getting up to speak and using the same language that I'd used in 1993 in a debate about, uh um, a gay priests. I told the gathered synod that at the time I hoped that churches would see reason and change, and this is how human rights legislation works. But I was sad to say that this was not the case. And in the church we still discriminate strike despite the language [00:57:00] and despite being Christian, uh, against gay people and mainstream Anglicanism in New Zealand. Now this reform, as Fran has said in her, her, um, talk was really pushed. It was about gay people taking them this issue into their own hands. And this reform was we due to them and also to people like Warren Lindberg and Tony Hughes who came into my office, Peter Northcote, I think, was another who [00:57:30] came into my office and helped during those that time. There were many behind the scenes, and I can't remember their names and I. I also want to mention my own staff. Diana Marriott, my press secretary, was invaluable. She was just wonderful. And, um, my SBS Beverly Curb. I think they protected me from a lot of nonsense and nastiness, which probably came my way. So I sort of breezed on quite happily and not hearing any of the nasty stuff. [00:58:00] And, uh, Hugh Evans, who was my health private secretary. People in the Health Department and Justice Ministry were all extremely helpful. Now it's 20 years since I'd like to think that things have changed for gay people. I do not regret for one second what was done that year, and I still believe today that I would have been failing in my duty as a minister with responsibility for communicable diseases if I hadn't sought avenues that would stop the transmission of HIV AIDS or other communicable diseases. [00:58:30] In that speech, in the speech on the Sunday morning, I suggested that particular Sunday morning I suggested, and I quote in particular, human rights laws should adapt to the needs of a changing society. And although values may remain as a constant in which a society can be founded, how we achieve those values may change. We as a society speak freely of equality. We also expect to be treated equally before the law. And although legislation by itself does not remove prejudice from or discrimination [00:59:00] in people's hearts or minds, it serves as a signal that over discrimination is no longer acceptable and that in time itself changes attitudes. I concluded that speech by saying that we must recognise the human rights needs around us and help to create a neutral environment for those who, for whatever reason, have fewer rights than the rest of us. The extent to which we are able to do that will mean for many of us, a civilised and decent society. This issue must be addressed and [00:59:30] I believe that the amendments were very important and I shall conclude by reading a letter I received from a gay man. As a gay man, I have experienced the fear of discrimination by my employer because of the personal views of that employer. I know that attitudes cannot be changed overnight, but they can be influenced over time by such things as the human rights legislation. I seek to be judged for who I am for my work and for my successes and my failures, not on the basis of prejudice [01:00:00] had he not been persecuted. So I wonder what sort of life Oscar Wilde would have led. Thank you very much. Come. Thanks. So before, before he came back to New Zealand, Tim Barnett had a background in gay politics in the United Kingdom. As executive director of the Stonewall lobby, [01:00:30] he was a four term member of Parliament here, responsible for guiding through both the decriminalisation of prostitution and the civil Union bill. Since Parliament, I think he's been global programme manager for the World AIDS campaign and now he's back here as general secretary of the Labour Party. So, Tim, [01:01:00] But your and Bill, thank you for the introduction. And also thank you for the energy you've put into organising this event. Uh, I've got to admit to being the person who suggested we met in here, which I know has caused you endless hassle and led to the development of this very unusual national green alliance to actually get get us in here this evening. So that's a very, very exciting [01:01:30] indeed. And there is a relevance to this location. I mean, this was the site of a failed democratic institution, which was our upper house, which was abolished in the early 19 fifties. So it's been gone for a long time. And if you look at the record of the extreme conservatism in that chamber, I suspect if it hadn't been abolished, it would be really hard to get some of this legislation through. It was not a liberal advancing upper house. It was very much [01:02:00] the the dead rock of the ageing politicians sitting here stopping things happening. So this is a Another interesting thing about the context of law reform in New Zealand is that we work not only with a single chamber parliament, but as one of only two or three countries in the world without a written constitution. So we don't have constitutional rights to call on in doing this work and the legislation we've heard about and we're going to hear about and the legislation to come [01:02:30] is actually building up that body of rights, and one day maybe we will have something called a Constitution and somehow everything we're talking about today will need to be embedded in that document. But we do work in a really interesting and a different kind of environment where the people and the community have to pressure to make the happen because they don't happen otherwise. And I think that creates quite the different dynamics. If you look to countries like Canada, [01:03:00] they go to court to get ultimately the Supreme Court to say that the Constitution demands marriage or demands sex workers be decriminalised and then the parliament goes along with it. Here it has to be a community movement that leads to the change. I think that's important. My background before parliament and its interest in the common strands it involved emigrating here from the UK in 1991 in Britain. I was [01:03:30] in infamously known in the gay media as Britain's first professional homosexual, uh, which caused my mother a lot of angst. When she read it, she didn't know what to believe. But I I was the first person to be paid full time to work for lesbian and gay rights in Britain, which is so therefore it was technically accurate And that was for the Stonewall Group. And that's where I met Ian McKellen, who we just saw on the screen, who was part of a group of political and artistic luminaries called [01:04:00] Stonewall, which got set up to create equal rights under the law for lesbians and gay men. And I was the first staff member first director there, and that went on to succeed pretty well. I emigrated here in 1991 to Christchurch and got involved both through the AIDS Foundation in Auckland and through community activism down there in the pressures around the Human Rights Act. I mean, one of the interesting stories of that. It was a lobby by the lesbian community [01:04:30] in Christchurch on some of Catherine's quite conservative colleagues like Jenny Shipley, which actually led to that legislation being the first law in the world to actually contain the word lesbian. There was a change that was made along the way, and that was that was extraordinary. And we do actually, there are extraordinary things that happen along along all these stories, the AIDS Foundation, a really important place in offering kind of training and opportunities for people in this whole sector, I got involved [01:05:00] with them. And then in 1996 lucky. After having been here for quite a short time, I got selected and then elected to Parliament, an innocent young labour backbencher. And no sooner had I arrived and I was approached by a highly experienced older woman, slightly older woman who who politically seduced me into into taking on the project. She did mention which was the decriminalisation [01:05:30] of sex work, and it really did bounce out of all that work. And it was in some ways, in terms of the figures and in terms of the issues. Uh, it's probably the toughest one of all of them. I mean, certainly in terms of getting the legislation through. So Catherine and I, it was a very interesting model. The model actually goes back to the 19 eighties, when Helen Clark, as health minister and arranged funding for the prostitutes collective. So it was a community getting money for the first time, starting to organise [01:06:00] having some resonance with the media and realising that the legislative framework for sex work was the problem, and then starting to organise among conservatives and progressives in parliament and then over a period of probably six years, getting to the point where they were ready to start to write the legislation, and it's quite complicated. It's not as simple as Lewis's bill. It was very complicated legislation, and [01:06:30] it was drawing together a whole lot of nonsense and a whole lot of different laws, a lot of which were not what they seemed to be, because they were written to allow things to happen and allow the police to turn their face the other way. It was a complicated work. Catherine drove that between 96 and 99. We went on illicit visits to to the Sex worker community of Sydney. There were amazing cartoons featuring you on Yeah, dancing on tables and the National Party caucus and God knows what else. And anyway, [01:07:00] um, Catherine then had the misfortune to get selected to stand in, um, and a greater misfortune be up against Winston Peters and ended up out of parliament. So I was left holding, holding the baby of this piece of legislation and for a few months for the new Labour government. I thought, I'm not sure we need, uh, prostitution decrime as well as everything else But eventually we went ahead and put the bill in the ballot. Come really expecting that it would sit there for a year or two, and a week later it was drawn out. [01:07:30] I can remember standing there a biscuit tin. There's literally a biscuit tin, which is from which all the members ballots are drawn from which members were going to be there and there were 44 in there. Lewis had the same luck recently. There were 44 in there, and I think mine was number 44. It was the newest one in there and and we could go along and watch and they were drawing one out, and I just before they do it out, I said, I think it's going to be number 44 And it was It was And, um, my caucus [01:08:00] gave a collective sigh in a groan and thought, Heavens, what are we going to do? And then that led that process started, and that was, uh, that was a roar of a process. I think the president we broke was that, uh, legislation like that shouldn't be changed much by a select committee, and the committee completely rewrote it really to make it make it more fitting in with fitting in with the way that the legislation was was really moulded at that time and we went back into Parliament and it got through the first [01:08:30] stage by 87 to 21 so that was pretty easy. I'm sure to was against it very highly conservative at that time and then it went back into Parliament again. There been an election. We had a a lot of Christian conservatives in here and he got through the next stage by 64 to 56 at which stage we all started to panic a bit and it went into the most intense sort of three or four months of lobbying you can possibly imagine. I can remember when I looked at the final, [01:09:00] the final vote on that legislation, that the only way one could understand the two ways I mean, the Labour MPs tended to be in favour, which was good, but the gender mix was incredible was only one woman voted against. So the women in parliament got the issue. But most of the men didn't which it was Donna. Yeah, so it actually it was an extraordinary piece of legislation. Anyway, the final vote. I mean, the last week was people [01:09:30] were shifting sides the whole time, Uh, the day before the legislation, we were going to lose by one vote, and and there's a lot more to the story. But, um, we did one thing, which was again a statement about community lobbying. Uh, we had a colleague here, Winnie Laon, who had voted against the legislation but was a liberal Christian Samoan background. And one day the prostitutes collective were in here with the lobby team. And when they were in one corner [01:10:00] of the cafe here, and, uh, when he lay and was in another corner and I realised that one of the team was Samoan and I thought we haven't made the link. So we made the link. Later that day, they started talking. And on the day of the legislation's final vote, when he came to me and she said, I've changed my mind, I'm going to support it, but don't tell anyone, and then what happens? Uh, and Louisa will get this moment, and the fan had it, Uh, the speaker had a chat to me, and it would be to, But hopefully by then he'll be having a chat to Lusa, uh, about about the about [01:10:30] the order of the speakers in the final debate because the sponsor of the bill was allowed to give some indication from the people they want to speak. And I said, Well, OK for and against for and against. I want the last speaker to be Winnie Labour, and when he told the story of how she opposed the legislation, she thought about it. And then she ended up voting in favour. And there were two people who were swung the right way by. That one went the wrong way, little knowing. And so we stood in the lobby outside here [01:11:00] and we saw about at the numbers and 100 and 20 people were voting, and it got to 59 59 at which the colleagues with me were in some state of panic, and I realised that somebody should have voted by proxy when the Act MP should have voted by proxy for a colleague of hers who was overseas. So we got it back in, and that made the 60 then one person abstained. And that's how we got it. So 60 votes to 59 and one abstention. Um and then we had to go back in the chamber, not looking [01:11:30] as though we knew the result and sit there. Well, well, it was all read out. That was pretty extraordinary. Until that until that point, I would explain decriminalisation by in many ways. But particularly by saying that this is pretty similar to what was happening elsewhere in the world, which, of course, was not quite true. So the so the interviews, the interviews After 10 o'clock that night, I could actually say we were the first country in the world to do sex work, which we were, and we still remain the first country to do it extraordinary, because all the indicators [01:12:00] are that it works well. The recommendations around the world say that should be done, but it's a really tricky, difficult issue, and it touches all the negative buttons when it comes to politicians. That's only a lead in. We're going to be very brief because your questions are are very important in all this. The while that was going through, Helen Clark, um, called me in one day, which is often quite a nerving experience. Um, and she kept. But it was terrifying, actually. And she, [01:12:30] um But what she wanted to talk about was the fact that with the prostitution reform legislation, um, popping through the system, she was watching the debate around the world about the status on same sex relationships. And she wanted New Zealand to be leading rather than following in that debate. This been in 2001 and she said to me, Could you begin a bit of a conversation with the community about what kind of legislation people want and to see whether it is only marriage equality, [01:13:00] in which case, politically, that's going to be pretty tough to get through that parliament? Or is there the possibility of something else? And so we started instead of a website and had a quite a bit of one year consultation, I guess, and came up with the concept of civil unions, really based on the fact that legally it was the same as marriage. But of course, the difference is that marriage will still be barred for people in same sex relationships and also will be paralleled by another [01:13:30] piece of legislation, which I think probably in retrospect, was much more radical and was supported by many more people in Parliament, which was to essentially write out of all our laws, discrimination on the basis of relationships. So if you're married or in a civil union or in a de facto relationships, New Zealand law essentially treats you the same. And not many countries did that with 100 and 87 laws we had to amend, and the last one was found the day before we got [01:14:00] the bill out of the select committee, which was a island. Um, wardens Regulation. We said that the warden and and his or her spouse got free passage on the boat out there. So we had to take spouse to include civil union partner. They got, they got, they got down to some detail. But But yeah, so I. I chaired the select committee that dealt with civil unions. I'm going through the process which went through the process of running [01:14:30] the the the endless submitters 200. I think we had 250 come to the committee. We had five minutes, five minutes, five minutes, five minutes. Questions. We got through lots of people over many hours. I was accused of being biassed because I chaired the committee and so we had to deal with them that drama and anyway, eventually it came back to Parliament. We knew it was a bit easier than the prostitution reform, and it got through by a majority of 10 at the end of the day, and that was very much helped by [01:15:00] four national MPs who supported it. And that's been one of the stories all the way through. So we ended up we were the first country outside Europe to pass legislation that gave same sex couples access to law that in terms of the legal rights, was equal to marriage without being married. So that was the that was the next step along the way, and it wasn't perfect. But it was It was fascinating. My last point. There were six little points. Really, Um, [01:15:30] I mean this this conference and this event is about the activists of today and into the future, and I think there are some lessons in my experience. I mean, one is that we can actually change things pretty fast in this country when we think of the spectrum of what we're talking about and where we started and where we are now and obviously there are places to go to and I think we've actually fed off each other in that process and that's been really valuable. I mean, there's a story again from Ruth Dyson, who was Labour Party president in 1990 the dying days [01:16:00] of that Labour government and she talks about the arguments getting the human rights amendment tabled in Parliament and she threatened to resign as president if they didn't actually table it. I mean, there were big battles to even get it in the system because it was in the system. Catherine could then it up a bit like a baton, is actually passing from generation to generation and politician to politician and and it's really great to see to and Jan and others as the new the new generation in this place, so the [01:16:30] sustainable agenda, but keeping the movement going is the first point. The second thing is not to underestimate how important this stuff is. I know that Jan and To and Louisa were in Uganda last year earlier this year, this year and I was also there this year when I was working over in Africa and to go to a conference of human rights activists in Uganda and see a presentation about New Zealand's human rights laws and about our laws for sex workers make makes [01:17:00] you realise just the resonance of this house. It is relevant not just on these shores but way outside. Um, I think the third thing is the importance of stories as you go through this and the story which I told it so many times that eventually I heard Helen Clark telling it herself. And the the story I I developed was that, um and it's the bits of it are true. I just packaged it, I think when she was health minister in the 19 eighties and, um, and [01:17:30] and HIV was becoming an identified threat in New Zealand, um, there was there was an approach to say What can we as parliament do about these issues? And there were three things. It was decriminalising go sex, which was fr's work. It was also decriminalising needle exchanges which went through in 1989. I think we were one of the first in the world to do that, and the third one was to decriminalise sex work and it was too tough at the time. So we did what we could with the funding and then [01:18:00] later on it happened. And so it's really important to have stories to humanise all this. The fourth point, which I think we heard hints of earlier, is the interaction between community and politics. So this work happens with people in here. You've got the vision and the energy and the determination that the select committee system, the media and so on demand a much wider network of people to work as partners in that process. The fifth point is about the cross party work, that these are New Zealand [01:18:30] values driving us in this work, not actually not actually ideological party values. It's actually something about being New Zealanders and seeing the world in a certain way. And then the last one is that at the end of the day this means real things for real people on the ground. And there were a couple of moments relating to the prostitution reform legislation that was really kind of they they got it through to me. One was [01:19:00] that quite soon after the law went through. There was a sex worker murdered in my electorate in Christchurch. And after getting the wave of letters to the media, Senator, I was actually personally responsible for the murder, which is the kind of thing you sometimes get as a politician because the legislation has somehow made people behave differently. I went to her funeral and met her family, her family from the United States. And they come over to her funeral and they wanted to meet me to give me one message, which was to say that if she'd been murdered [01:19:30] in her home town, she'd have been treated by the police like dirt, and they wouldn't have been interested in actually finding out who killed her. And in Christchurch, the police and the sex workers were working together because of the different legislation. And within a week they'd actually found out the person who ended up being convicted of a murder. And that was, to me, a powerful story about what this legislation is all about. And the last one last story, I'll tell, was from my work I've fairly recently finished doing in South Africa, which, uh, for [01:20:00] the last nine months, I was funded and employed to work with sex workers to train them in lobbying members of Parliament to get trained in their laws. And the model that they wanted to use was a New Zealand model. So they had to learn a bit about New Zealand and and we went through a whole process of change and on the last day I was there, we had a we all sat around together in the agency I was working in, just to talk about about the changes over the nine months and and the confidence that the sex [01:20:30] workers are gained. And Joyce talked about the first day that she went to Parliament, when when I'd work taking a group of them to the parliament, to look around and to go to the cafe and to meet a few MPs and she said you took me to Parliament and and and that was great, she said. And then that same night I was standing in the street doing my work as a sex worker, and the police came along in the van and they said to me, Get in the van, we're going, we're going to take you away like they often did and she said to them, I went to parliament today. She said, I met MPs [01:21:00] I ate in our parliament and you can go away. I'm not going to go along with you. And she said, I walked off and the police drove off. Well, there's movement and there's change. So in all this it's at the end of the day about real people and their lives and their journeys, which I think is crucial. And I so admire my colleagues here from this institution from the parliamentary who've been part of this great story. And for those of you here and what is to come my very best wishes. [01:21:30] So now we have the star of the night Lewis O of and a national representative in netball and rugby, a member of parliament since 2008 [01:22:00] and one of us. Uh, firstly, can I thank for that? Uh, beautiful, Uh, welcome. And, uh, and the for the I'd like [01:22:30] to acknowledge my parliamentary colleagues, uh, in particular, um ja and Kevin Hague. Uh, but also in absentia, uh uh, uh Grant Robertson and Marion Street. Um, and I'd particularly like to, um acknowledge Bill and and the organisers tonight. Uh, but I do really want to stand here and pay tribute to the three, former members of parliament who, uh, have paved the way for, uh, me being a member of parliament [01:23:00] who is leading the marriage equality legislation. So, Fran, Catherine, Tom, I want to thank you for, uh, the wonderful platform that you've provided, uh, for where we are today. And I just wanted to, um, talk about the title of the Con Conference, which is on marriage. Equality. I thought it was about towards marriage equality. And, um, I do have to say that I I am here with some reservation. Uh, and the reservation for me is the fact that we're in the middle of a process. Um, I felt [01:23:30] really uncomfortable about, uh, sitting at a table with people who have had, uh, legislation passed in the house. And it's probably my sporting background Where, uh, when I played, uh, for the black ferns or for the silver ferns? Um, you don't celebrate, uh, until you actually win. Um, and so, uh, for me, um, that was the reservation. But when I think about tonight, actually, um, it isn't just about marriage equality. It's actually about, uh, debating, uh, one type, [01:24:00] uh, of, um, human being and one type of citizenship. And I think that is the bigger agenda, uh, that we're all engaged in now, not only in New Zealand, um, but actually globally, Uh, and particularly within the context of having having Boris Dietrich here. Uh, Jen and I were privileged to host Boris, uh, Who was the proposer of the first, uh, legislation in 1994 in the Netherlands that created civil union as a progression towards, uh, marriage [01:24:30] equality that they had in 2001. Uh, but he was very clear in his new role as the CEO or the representative from Human Rights Watch International that the the bigger conversation we have we're having and that he has is that of the 193 countries that, um, subscribe to the United Nations. 76 of those countries are still haven't gone through homosexual law reform. So, in fact, in those countries, being homosexual means that, uh, you are [01:25:00] a different type of human being and you're a different type of citizen. And I actually think that's the conversation, Uh, that we are engaged in, um, and one of the principles, um, of the legislation that I'm trying to promote with my colleagues is around, uh, do we have different types of citizenship in modern democratic society? So if democracy is the way that the world wants to govern, are there different types of citizenship? Which was one of the questions that I asked at the select committee. [01:25:30] I want to pick up on something that, um, uh, made as his critical point, which is about the cross party work. And I want to acknowledge that this, uh, this, uh, conversation that we're engaged in and particularly within our within our parliament is only possible because we have a cross party working group we have to who represents the National Party with his colleague, um, Nicky Kay and I want to acknowledge Nicky, uh, we have Kevin and Jan, Uh, we have myself with my, uh, fellow rainbow [01:26:00] or Labour Rainbow caucus members. Um, but we also have in our parliament, um, the minority parties and no, I'm not being offensive, but we have at the moment the Greens Act United future and the Maori Party that is standing solid. I mean, That's 20 votes from the first reading. Uh, And then, uh, the contribution from the Labour Party, 30 votes and the National Party, 30 votes at first reading mean, uh, that at first reading, we had a really solid mandate [01:26:30] for the conversation, and so we can't do anything. And I think you've displayed that tonight, Uh, that that cross party collaboration. So that's really fundamental. Um, when I, um when I've looked at, uh, this whole development of of, um I, I guess that one citizenship and it really is the theme for me. Um, we in the UK. They had homosexual law reform in 58 But when I look at the progression So it was in 74 that [01:27:00] young proposed the first, uh, homosexual law reform. Then it was Warren free. So it was in 74 Warren free. Uh, and, uh, I think it was 78 and 80. Um, so it took 12 years before the first brave member of parliament decided to talk about this, uh, before friends Bill was successful, and, um, part of that, uh I think, uh, community conversation meant that the country was pretty much split kind of reminds me of 81 in the Springbok tour. You [01:27:30] were either for homosexual law reform or you were against it. And I think some of the residual, uh, issues that we're dealing with today are actually about people who were either on the side of homosexual law reform or not. And so when I look at the biggest challenge that we have in the country at the moment, it is those people who are aged between 2030 who didn't support it and predominantly men. So 55 year old men, uh, have the biggest problem with homosexual law Reform now have the biggest problem with, uh, marriage [01:28:00] equality. But for the younger generation, um, and it's been typified by, um, referenda both at Otago and at Victoria University, 84% support. And so young New Zealanders, Um, I think because, uh, they live, um, with modern family, they live with, uh, TV programmes like, um, Grey's Anatomy, where you have characters who are in, uh, in relationships. Uh, they're either married or bringing [01:28:30] up Children. I mean, I think the normality of homosexuality, uh, for younger people, um, really means, uh, that this is, um, in new Zealand at the moment, Uh, a problem that older New Zealanders have, and people have said I shouldn't say that, or I shouldn't highlight it, but I think that's the reality of the conversations. Um, but what I do want to acknowledge and within this context is leadership, For example, um, of the Salvation Army and the leadership that I talk about is [01:29:00] I'm sure they're having debates, but they're having internal debates. They're not having public debates. It is the Anglican Church who are having debates, but they're having internal debates. Uh, and so I think that what we have at the moment are people like, um, you know, family first, who seems to be, uh, trying to, uh, run an agenda about, uh, this is so complicated that we can't progress. Uh, but the reality is, and I think what I've managed to do and we've managed to do really clearly from the [01:29:30] beginning is say that we want to balance freedom, uh, from discrimination with freedom of religion. And so from the beginning, we've had a really transparent agenda that we don't want to upset what currently happens. And in fact, I will, uh, fight for the rights of our religious leaders, uh, to believe what they believe, uh, and to marry who they want. So at the moment, they are authorised, not obliged. And it seems through the select committee process that we're going to have to do something to strengthen section 29 of the marriage act, which we will do. [01:30:00] Um, but, um, I think some of the other conversations, uh, in terms of future development really is, uh, around focusing on marriage as an institution, uh, where people love each other, they commit to each other, they want to create families and everybody. Every human being strives to find their life Partner doesn't matter who you are. But I think the language that we've used, uh, in the legislation, which is why it is so simple because marriage [01:30:30] is about two people, regardless of sex, sexual orientation and gender identity. And I think broadening that agenda to encompass um, our Trans, our intersex, uh, is an opportunity, I think, to probably, uh, if the legislation goes through, uh, highlights, um, that maybe in section 21 of our Human Rights Act, we should be looking at gender identity, and I want to acknowledge Georgina, who's not here because that was something that she wanted to do. And Crown Law said that [01:31:00] it was already in the legislation that under sex can't discriminate based on your sex, then included uh, um, gender identity. Now, whether or not that's going to be fit for purpose when we move to the future, that will be, uh, a later development. But, um, I just want to, um to thank the organisers, Uh, because the work that's happening in the community with the Marriage equality campaign, I want to acknowledge Margaret and the work that she's doing. Uh and and I think [01:31:30] having really positive, constructive conversations within our, uh, religious institutions, it's been, um, really, um I think, uh, mature for us as a country. Um, I've certainly tried to have conversations, uh, with our Pacific community especially, and I do want to acknowledge, um, yeah, the the issues. But the reality is, New Zealand is such a diverse society now, and we have people whose heritage identities because [01:32:00] of homosexual law reform not happening in Samoa not happening in Tonga. I think that we just have to understand that, um, you know it, it will take time to fully embrace, uh, the acceptance of one type of human being and one type of citizen. But we're certainly towards the path. And if I was to say, uh, what the big agenda around all of this is actually about, uh, one person, uh, is equal [01:32:30] to another person. It doesn't matter who you are that that's the big agenda. And so I've been pretty transparent about that. Um, I do want to acknowledge the work that Jen and to and I will continue to do, um, representing us, um, as IP U, uh, delegates to the next IP U, uh, forum in Quito. Because we, um I think now understand that New Zealand has a role to play on the international stage to continue to advance. [01:33:00] Uh, this particular issue, uh and, um, we will do that to the best of our ability. Uh, and so, uh, when we go to next year, we will put our, um, to the Human Rights Committee, won't we, Jan uh uh, an opportunity for us to look at how parliaments around the world, uh, you know, contribute to the decriminalisation or the homosexual law reform agenda. And so we commit to doing that. Um, but I just wanted to thank you all very [01:33:30] much for the opportunity to share, uh, the the stage with, um, particularly these three wonderful, uh, people. And, um, yeah, I just look forward to where, uh, this debate will take us in the future. And, uh, I thank you very much. So bell I'll hand over to you. Thank you. Thanks, Lisa. So we've got some time for [01:34:00] some questions or conversation? Some discussion, please try to be brief. Who's got something to say now? You will be recorded. Um, unless you protest. In which case I think it can be turned off. Uh uh. I'm taking some of, um the minutes that Fran has kindly offered to fill in the history. I'm not a historian, but [01:34:30] I'm taking some of Fran the minutes Fran has kindly offered to fill in the history. Uh, but first, I would like to say, uh, [01:35:00] in 18 93 the Criminal Code Act was passed based on the English Crimes Act of 18 85 by which Oscar Wilde was condemned, which condemned male homosexual acts, including those in private in 1908. The Crimes Act defined the penalties for sodomy and indecency between males. In 1941 [01:35:30] and 1954 amendments to the Crimes Act reduced the penalties for male homosexuality. Flogging was abolished in 1941 although I doubt that there were many for a long time before that. In 1959 the attorney General HGR Mason of the Second Labour government tried unsuccessfully to have the penalties for homosexual acts reduced in 1961 section 39 139 of the Crimes Act [01:36:00] criminalised act sex between women over the age of 21 and girls under the age of 16. Penalties for male were set at five years imprisonment for indecent assault and seven years for sodomy. In 1968 Arnold Nordmeyer of Labour presented a petition to parliament on behalf of the Homosexual Law Reform Society, signed by 75 prominent citizens asking for changes to the Crimes Act. And I'm proud to say my mother was a foundation member of the Homosexual [01:36:30] Law Society. Signatories included the Anglican bishops of Auckland and Wellington lawyers such as Shirley Smith, academics such as professors Lloyd Geering and James Ritchie, doctors including Diana Mason and clergy such as John Murray, who I saw this afternoon, and Monty Holcroft, former editor of the listener Walter Scott, former principal of Wellington Teachers College and educationist Jack Shell, who I hope is still with us. It was returned later without recommendation [01:37:00] by the chairman, Gordon Grieve, National, saying if the revolting practise were legal, the public would no longer think it was immoral, which I think is the message. Tonight, July 1974 Van Young introduced a Crimes Amendment bill with an age of consent of 21 uh Gerald Law. Labour moved an amendment making it punishable by two years jail to communicate to anyone under [01:37:30] 20 that homosexuality was normal. The bill and and amendment were defeated in passing 1976. Marilyn Waring was sprung as a lesbian by truth newspaper Um 1979. Warren Freer introduced a Crimes Amendment bill Decriminalising homosexual acts, but with an age of consent of 20 lesbian and gay activists opposed the bill because of the discriminatory age of consent, and it was defeated in [01:38:00] 1983 the Equality Bill was proposed by the Auckland Gay Task Force. Fran Wild agreed to introduce it as a private members Bill, but it was opposed by lesbians and radical gay gay men. That's what I wrote in the year 2000 because it would have criminalised some lesbian sex and it was dropped. And then, on July the 9th, 1986 the homosexual Law reform bill was passed by 49 votes to 44. I came out at that moment, [01:38:30] and a few moments later you may remember a preacher called from the gallery to Fran saying she would roast in hell or some such. And the speaker said, Have that man removed and Mr Muldoon said, Throw the out too. And I vowed, I renewed my vow that I had taken up when he first, uh, uh attacked Moyle that [01:39:00] I would dance on his grave. And I have since done some. I didn't bring this here to read it tonight. I brought it to take my niece and her partner, Emily and, uh, Eloise and Emily on a short lesbian gay history walk. And our first port of call was the Thistle Hotel, and we read on the stairs. Catherine Mansfield's [01:39:30] short story lives our, which is still worth reading. Other questions or comments. Mhm can Can this be taken around? Can I? That's that's a good idea, Tony. I thought it was worth [01:40:00] emphasising that, um in the civil union act that in that really, thanks to Tim, as far as I can see, we have something very unusual in New Zealand. Virtually every other country or state of the of the US or wherever which has passed such passed Such legislation has limited it to same sex couples with the result that when marriage equality comes, one presumes [01:40:30] that civil partnerships, for example, in the UK will wither on the vine. Uh, did you know, by the way, that the UK, whilst it recon whilst it recognises same sex civil unions from New Zealand, does not recognise opposite sex civil unions? That is to show us what a stupid lot those ponds can be. And as an ex pal Oh, I think it was also noticeable [01:41:00] that some of the opposition on the right to the to the, uh, civil union legislation specifically covered the fact that they didn't like that heterosexuals were going to be allowed to do it, thus allowing heterosexual something else apart from marriage. But But, of course what it does mean is that when we pass marriage equality, we will still have an institution called civil unions, which heterosexual [01:41:30] and same sex couples can can opt for. And this will give us, uh, thanks. Thanks to the careful wording of that act of far more choice than other countries will have. I'd like to thank um, all of the members of parliament who have worked on this positive, um, legislation [01:42:00] over the years. Um, but tonight, I'd particularly like to thank Catherine O'Regan. Um, during the 1992 and 93 I was a member of a group called Common Ground, and I believe Bill was also a member of that group. That's where I met Charles Chill as a young student. What we did was we formed an alliance, um, the disabled persons assembly who had not been, um, included in the previous human rights legislation. Um, people of different [01:42:30] sexual orientations I identify as bisexual. So I was there with that sort of grouping. Um, but people of a whole range of areas got together and were trying to do that behind the scenes letter IT and campaigning. And for many people, they'd never actually been in the room with the other groups. So you got lesbians and gay men working with people who had disabilities, people, disabilities, working with people who are HIV positive. It was, you know, a really great mix. And I think one [01:43:00] of the things about Lewis's legislation that is coming through as well is that there is a great range of different people from community groups who are working together on a common cause and that sharing within the community and the whole ripple effect, you know, we're all pebbles in the pool. We're all sending out a ripple to the communities. And I think that's one of the things that the previous legislation has enabled to happen. It remove some of the big rock, so those those ripples can go a lot further. So thank you all [01:43:30] Now, Good evening, everybody. Well, speaking as a pom and a 55 year old male, um, I feel a little bit challenged here, but, um, I would just like to thank all of you for the support that, um, I've seen over these last months. Um, my name is Nigel Studd, and I was the teacher up north. One thing I'd also echo from Louisa is the young people in this country. The students in the school that I taught [01:44:00] her were amazing. They faced incredible challenges in what they did, but they were prepared to stand up. There's a lot of adults out there that are not prepared to stand up. And I think what you're doing now is so vitally important because the teenage suicide rate in New Zealand is so high and what you're doing is you're giving an awful lot of people a lot of hope. So thank you all for doing that. [01:44:30] I. I wonder if members of the panel might want to intervene at this stage and make any responses to those things. Yeah, we'll have some more later on. I'd like to say something about what Nigel just said, because, um, when we did, um, gay law reform. Um, it was a long time ago now, but a lot of the, um, the one of the most powerful responses [01:45:00] to me was from young people who said, uh who were just terrified. I mean, now it's kind of it's difficult, I guess if you're at school, But in those days it was just a complete No no. And a lot of young people wrote to me and said, Thank you very much and and they still were scared. I don't think many of them actually did come out as, unlike the adult, the adults that did. But for them it was really, really important. One of them actually was Charles who was at school there [01:45:30] and got in touch with me. And that was when I first met him. But I know how important it was for them. And I guess it still is because the vulnerability of kids of that age is huge and there's so much else going on in their lives as well and to have to contend with, um, society pressures of that nature is just, um pretty must be pretty terrible. So, um yes, I endorse what you said and I saw that, too, when when gay law reform was going through. Actually, [01:46:00] anyone else on the panel at the stage, Um, the thing that drove me most at the beginning was the HIV a I DS issue, and I worried that it's going disappearing again. The the the The whole issue about HIV aids is disappearing when In fact, it's still a major problem. And I remember because I had such a lot of contact with individuals and [01:46:30] their stories and I'd see these wonderful young men dying of AIDS and such a waste such a waste. And one young man, I thought I thought I'd tell you his story. In fact, um, he started up the organisation mean, um, people who are living with people with AIDS, living with AIDS. It was quite a quite a difficult title. And he had AIDS, and he was not at all well and taking [01:47:00] rather large amounts of drugs to to cope with it, to deal with it. And he'd had enough. And he rang me one day and he said, Catherine, he said, Um, if I stop taking these pills, am I committing suicide? And I said, I thought, This is a bit of an ethics question and I just said, Look, let me think about it and I'll come back to you. So, um, I thought about [01:47:30] it for a while, and I decided when I rang him back, I said to him, Tim, it's not you're not committing suicide. All you're doing is letting nature take its course and two weeks later I was speaking at his funeral. Now I think we're inclined to forget today about those men who fought so hard with organisations with the needle exchange people remember was at, um [01:48:00] oh, the things the people that individuals, gay men and others who were drug addicts who were using had got had HIV aids from needles and needles using needles that were infected. And I think we don't see a lot about that today and I think there's still the issue is still out there. You could still get AIDS HIV AIDS and you don't want to get HIV aids. [01:48:30] And, um, I think there needs to be, um, a bit more of a discussion. I think about it amongst the gay community. I think that there's a bit of a gung ho attitude because the the cocktails are different now and you can actually live quite well, taking the drugs to, um to alleviate. But it it's still the same thing. The same issues today and I really would like to encourage those who are involved with in HIV [01:49:00] AIDS communities to speak up again because it needs to be heard. I think some of it back yet, or so, um, I can lose [01:49:30] a I have an anecdote which goes back to the time of the concept of law reform. And I think one of the areas that's been missed in the discussion tonight is an, uh when I was very much in the closet at the time was very much a camouflage close. Um, I was head of the court for the engineers at that time in my life. Um, and a part of the community that was extruded from the Homosexual Law Reform Act was first passed. [01:50:00] Happened to be a New Zealand defence force at the time. Um, and a year or two later, there was a reform which was intended to remove that exclusion. A good friend of mine, he had to be an art. So I have to get out. Um, but just was a very intelligent man and a good friend [01:50:30] of mine who was vehemently against any reform and his opinions and relation and his arguments against, uh, any reform that affected the New Zealand Defence Forces was very much stereotypical. And he had, I guess he felt he had at that time. Uh, an incident that played into his hands. Um, a soldier for which I was indirectly responsible for had, [01:51:00] um, had been raped, um, by a another male and, um, unfortunate circumstances. And, um, and that was being investigated at the time. Uh, this provided good fodder for for Garner's argument against, um, decriminalising homosexuality in the New Zealand defence Force. But that failed to look at the circumstances involved, because once the investigation [01:51:30] into the rape commenced, uh, shortly afterwards, a soldier was found hanging in his single living in quarters. He was a senior NCO. That soldier was gay. He had joined the Army because he was not accepted by his family. He joined the Army to try and become the man that society expected of him. I think perhaps possibly part of my emotion, [01:52:00] uh, reason for being in the army at the same time, he handled it quite differently. Uh, a a situation arose where he found he couldn't resist the temptation. He committed an act for which he was appalled to the extent where he took his life. Subsequently, that argument was used to buy gas and a submission, um, here to parliament to justify not reforming, um, the act, the Homosexual [01:52:30] Law Reform Act. Uh, as it affects affected then the New Zealand Defence Force. I'm proud to say that I was probably one of the few who stood up at that point in time and said that that was a reason why the reform should go through. Had the had there been no criminalization, both soldiers, both incidents were both tragedies would have been avoided. Uh, I like to think perhaps I influenced [01:53:00] a few opinions, uh, within my community. But I think even though I didn't identify much as I do now, at that point, the reality is that those sorts of thinking and bear in mind Gus wasn't is, I assume, still an intelligent man. But these these intelligent people still think dumb because their minds are set in [01:53:30] a kind of a doctrinal time war. And I guess what I'm hoping for out of this sort of community, uh, gathering and this forward thinking is that we start to look at these issues of human rights, not gay or trans or any other rights. But we look at these issues of human rights in a global form, and we shouldn't be arguing for them. My rights are extant. I'm a human. What is not right is for [01:54:00] anybody to take those rights away from me or legislate to prevent me having those rights. That is what we must work against at every level and in every occasion. Thank you. Thanks. Who's next? Warren, Just before I build my amendment, [01:54:30] just before my occasions Amendment was moved, Um, Warren Cooper, who was the then the Defence minister? Uh, said that there would be no more discrimination in the army in the defence forces. And, um so I was I was delighted about that. The police were not quite so forthcoming doing well. I think so. We'll have one or two last speakers if there are anyone do. [01:55:00] Hm? I just want to say something about, um, Lewis, Um, Bill now and I want to talk about the politics of what's going on because I'm hearing, you know, the numbers might be there in Parliament, which is great. But Lewis is in a really difficult situation in South Auckland as I see it, where she's being attacked constantly. And that's what I'm seeing on the news. And, um, she just told me another little story earlier. No, seriously. [01:55:30] So I know I don't know where you all come from, but she needs some support politically. Um, I was lucky because I was in a really liberal electorate. Wellington Central can't get a more liberal electorate than Wellington Central, full of young, educated people. And we were all, you know, proud liberal. Um, and I think Lewis is in a completely different situation, and she's being attacked by her own voters, her own people who should be actually supporting her, and they're not. So I'm [01:56:00] sorry, you might disagree, but that's how I reading the news. That's what I'm That's what I'm seeing these kind of stories coming. So I really If you are from Auckland or, you know, people up there, can you get them to kind of turn out for her and and just be voices there at the times when these other demos are going on? I. I don't want fights in the street. Of course we had enough of that. But you know, there needs to be some public support. Um, and maybe you're getting it in Auckland and, you know, maybe it is happening, but I think it's really important [01:56:30] politically that that people get that, Um because she's doing the right thing and that should be acknowledged, Um, and not just be a big political black mark for her with her voters. Um, the other thing I just want to say is that, um it's really good that you guys went to, um, Uganda. Uganda? Yeah, but actually close to home, we've got real issues around the Pacific, which is our neighbourhood, and I [01:57:00] chair a little human rights group that operates in the Pacific and our biggest issues. We do a lot of work with governments getting advising them on law. We do also training of community workers and all sorts of things. But the two biggest issues are women's rights. This is in the Pacific and HIV AIDS rights of HIV aids people. They are huge, huge issues in the Pacific. And so I think it's really important that the MP S here, please. Um you know, speak up [01:57:30] about that too, because that is an area we can influence more. And we can influence that through our membership of, you know, the Pacific Forum and the Pacific, or the political organisations and the closer relationship we have with those governments, Uh, and also our own government here, in terms of the development of assistance work. And you all know what's happened there. So sorry about this. But this is a shameless pitch for more activism, actually, in this area of human [01:58:00] rights, not just in New Zealand but also in our own neighbourhood, which I regard as the Pacific. So sorry, but I just wanted to do that as an ad, kind of an add. So we're we're about to wind up. Um, I do want to talk about the conference, which is is going on tomorrow. I think there's a brochure which is to be handed out as you go. Um, and, uh, that [01:58:30] conference will go on all weekend. It's a slightly different focus. Tonight we've been talking about what happens in Parliament mostly, and to some extent, the connection between Parliament and the community and the focus will be the other way around for the next two days. What the community can do and to some extent, how that interacts with Parliament. So a slightly different focus, Uh, and an interesting full programme ahead. [01:59:00] Take the brochure as you go, and we'll see you at some ungodly hour tomorrow morning. Nine o'clock. Is it? Uh, now, is there anything else that you guys would like to say? Just as a last word? Certainly. Yeah. I wanted to start off by just, um, recognising the work that all of you are doing in this campaign. And I think what this evening has done [01:59:30] is actually to bring out those historic strands really well of what's happened through the story. And I was really excited by Jem's sort of references of other challenges that lie ahead. So I think that's really crucial. And I guess the other thing is to recognise although we're in this rather over impressive building and there's been a big focus on Parliament and on MPs here that essentially MPs are people who come from community and go back to community in one way [02:00:00] or another. And we're just all really lucky to have had an opportunity in our lives to be in this place, which is an extraordinary privilege. And I think within that group we are even luckier to have been around at a time when really good things are happening and to be in a place where we can actually be part of the process of making them happen. So any of that that can be shared in terms of that story and about how people in politics work with people outside politics to make things happen is something which is so key to [02:00:30] our democracy and our future, whatever the issues you're involved in. So that for me has been the big, big reminder of tonight. So thank you very much for being here. You have met tonight in the one room of the Parliament, where, in actual fact, the submissions were heard for homosexual law reform. The select committee tables were set up in this room, this very room. So it seems totally appropriate [02:01:00] that this meeting and your conference begin in this hall today. Um, I, I just want to say that, um uh, there are some challenges for me specifically in South Auckland. Um, I did have two of my ministers come and see me, and they represented 22 ministers in South Auckland. But it was quite interesting because we got into a discussion [02:01:30] about our young people and about, uh, sexual self determination and about creating environments where our young people know that they're loved and their values. And actually, they have the space to be who they are. And it was really interesting because one of them said to me, Are you telling me how to minister? And that was in the context of him coming to my electorate office and telling me, uh, what I should be doing and how to be an MP. Yeah, but it was It was quite interesting because, um, I think [02:02:00] what I've tried to do all along is to create these spaces to talk. And I think for, uh, for me in this role, um, my passion and drive is our young people. I want to acknowledge you, uh, Mr, for the principled stance that you took in supporting the young people at your school. Um, I think that you showed a lot of courage, but more than that, I think at the heart of what you did was putting our Children [02:02:30] at the centre of any work that we do. And so what drives me? I think what drives Kevin Jan A lot of us who are in here, uh, is the legacy that we want to create for the next generation of New Zealander. And so, um, I'm fine about, uh, people in my electorate challenging me. Um, I do, but in saying in saying that I have, um I was at the markets on Saturday. [02:03:00] I have a lot of Pacific people come to me. Not publicly, but they'll see me at the market, and they'll say, You know, you're being so brave. We support you. Well done. We love our we love our They won't do it collectively or publicly. But I think that there is a misconception that the Pacific community do not support this bill. And so, um, I know, for example, that I have a youth, uh, network. [02:03:30] And they are going to have a forum very early in the new year because the leaders who work with our young people realise that this is such a big issue. And so we are doing a lot of work in the community. But I do want to thank you, and I and I don't feel like I'm isolated, but I also don't feel like I'm brave. I mean I mean, no. What did you feel like? You were brave. No, we did. We do what we do exactly because it was the right thing to do. And I just think, um, that I'm It's all like this timing, all of it is [02:04:00] about timing. But I do want to thank all of you here because we I'm I've always been clear right from the beginning that we can only do this together, that no one person is going to achieve it. And I think I want to pick up on something. Tim said that we've actually had a continual campaign. These aren't discrete, separate campaigns. Actually, they've all overlapped, and, um, we're all working together and we will get where we want to go. I've got no doubt about it, but it's how we get there and then how we engage with our communities to make [02:04:30] sure And for me, it, um, in my electorate, it's my Indian communities, my Asian communities, my Pacific communities. Because when this goes through, there's still a lot, a lot of work to be done to make sure that people understand that, uh, we're not trying trying to infringe on their rights, but actually living in a modern New Zealand society, we all have to respect one another, understand one another be tolerant to be able to live together. And so that's kind of the other agenda that I have going forward is that we continue these conversations [02:05:00] and it doesn't just end, uh, when the bill goes through. So you last comments, I'm usually not lost for words. Um, thank you for organising this bill. Actually. What? It's I think the I just want to, um, echo what's been said just a few minutes ago. I think it would be worthwhile exploring further at some stage How much has been [02:05:30] done in New Zealand by cross-party, um, work. And I just muttered earlier to to hear, um, to Catherine that we did a whole lot of stuff for women. Cross party in this parliament, uh, rape law reform. All of that stuff was done by us working together. And we had male ministers of justice who for who were either for or against or couldn't or couldn't understand it, you know, in different parties. And we gradually got these things by all the the legislation [02:06:00] about violence and all that sort of thing, and that's been driven by the women actually cross party. And it's been really important work. Um that's happened and you know there's some. There are some good stories. Tim is right that we need to keep telling. I didn't tell you any stories tonight because there's too many about gay law reform. But, you know, there's some great stories, and at a time when sometimes I must say now I'm not here, I look back and I think, How can people behave in the house the way they do? I mean, [02:06:30] you wouldn't want your kindergarten kids behaving in that way, actually. But there's some great things that happen here, too. And we need to celebrate the good things that happen in Parliament. Not just look at the ridiculous behaviour at question time and think that's how it is and conscious votes do bring. Uh, they shouldn't be conscience votes. In my opinion. Good on you greens. I won't vote for you, but I have to say good on you. And I'm a swinging voter, [02:07:00] too. But actually, you know, like having sex and alcohol and religion and those things as conscience votes is nuts. They are the big issues central to our human existence, not alcohol, perhaps, although for many people it is, but sex certainly is. And yet, you know, they kind of Oh, it doesn't really matter about them. They the issues actually so well done for having policies. That's great. Anyway, thank you all for coming tonight. [02:07:30] Did you ever denounce them? Just a couple of announcements. Uh, tomorrow we start, um, bright and early at the Wellington Community Law Centre for the workshops, Uh, at level 2 84 Willis Street. So, uh, hopefully you'll find that these brochures outside for more information. And, uh, for those that like to tweet, our hashtag is NZMEC. So New Zealand Marriage Equality Conference for [02:08:00] you to remember. Thank you all very much for coming along tonight. Thank you, uh, for participating. And we hope to see you all again soon. Cheers. Yeah.
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