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So, uh, yeah, my name's Joseph. He and I'm currently the communications officer for legalised Love. Wellington. Um, I also, um, have have the privilege of being one of the founders of of legalised Love, as it then was back in the day. And the idea for this essentially came about out of quite a horrific sort of story from the United States back in September 2010, Uh, there were a spate of quite terrible homophobic attacks and suicides, and that gave, um I guess the impetus to, [00:00:30] uh, this campaigner in, in sort of in in North America to start what became Spirit Day, which was every October 20th. Um, there's an event, um, where everyone wears purple to their school or place of work. And, um, back in 2010, I had the idea that that we that Spirit Day needs to be an international thing. That that something that that is, this sort of, um, came about out of this higher price, I suppose needs to not be lost. And if anything positive can come from it, it needs to be [00:01:00] so on this lead up basically to a rally on the 20th of October, 2011, Uh, where we we brought around about 300 people, um, marching on parliament. And I guess because I see the world in a very sort of legalistic sense, I'm a I'm a law student. So what I wanted to kind of do to help was push for, uh, legal equality and marriage and adoption and so that those were the two kind of planks that legalised love was formed on. Since then, Uh, obviously. And at the start of 2012, [00:01:30] we had this mindset of, you know, we want to keep pushing for these things, and we thought that, you know, it was a really it was a worthy cause to go towards um But we were kind of thinking, you know, maybe in the next three years, four years. And then, of course, president Barack Obama said, You know what? I think same sex marriage is something good. And then all of a sudden, all of our politicians start, you know, having a comment on it, and we thought, there's got to be a moment, you know, soon in our history where this will be debated and then Of course, Louisa Wall introduced her bill and we thought, Wow, it's really impending. So we started preparing for, [00:02:00] you know, the imminent debate. But we thought even then, you know, it was statistically unlikely for it to come out this year. And we thought, we've probably got a bit of time next day it was drawn, um, which, you know, was quite an exciting experience at the time. I was sitting in a law lecture and kind of trying to ignore my phone, which kept going off. And then I kind of a glance at the third text and just, you know, nearly jumped to the moon, which was brilliant. Um, but yeah, since then, um, at that I started off kind of being, um the the leader of legal legalised love. [00:02:30] I soon sort of stepped down into a more communicative role, which I think I personally like it better. Um, but it's been like the actual people involved in legalised love have changed over a couple of times, but I think consistently through it, we've had this this energy of I've been, you know, I feel like it's been an absolute privilege to work with everyone who has been involved in legalised love from the start. You know, some people are still there. Some people are not. But we've always had this energy of wanting to change the world. So, yeah, I've [00:03:00] I think it's been a really, really good journey. Um, our future. I'm not entirely sure uncertain of like after the spill is is dealt with. And I'm, you know, incredibly confident that New Zealand will come down on the right side. Um, obviously, we're not complacent about that, and we're ready to do whatever it takes to make sure that happens. Um, but once marriage, equality is a reality in New Zealand, I'm not sure where the group will go. Um, obviously, we still have in our hearts desire [00:03:30] to fight homophobia and transphobia as hard as we possibly can, whether that's as part of legalised love or whether that's as part of other groups we've yet to decide. But essentially as a kind of conclusion underpinning everything we do, at least everything I do. And I think you know, um, my my friends have this in common with me is that homophobia and transphobia are you know, I think not. I don't want to say the most because there are a lot of terrible things in the world, but certainly two of the most terrible things that that modern society [00:04:00] is cursed with. And I think the elimination of them is a goal that we all have to work towards, like I'm personally straight. I don't identify as an ally because I think the word ally implies that there's some sort of, um, special privilege to it, which I think is incredibly hetero, sexist. I think, um, every person in the world should be an ally. I don't think the word ally needs to signify anything special. So personally, I think that I I don't want to [00:04:30] live in the in the world in a world where the majority gets to decide how the minority live. And I don't want to live in a world that marginalises people based on who they love. So that's why we that's why we do what we do. Where does that drive come from? For you, Um for me, I think. Ok, well, I mean, I back in in high school, I had a I had a few friends who, uh, eventually sort of, um, came out to me, um, one in terms of his sexual identity [00:05:00] and, uh, one in terms of her gender identity and both people, uh, I could see personally, went through a lot. Um, but the the real kind of impetus, I suppose, was in at the beginning of 2009, I went to the you put on in Wellington, and it became clear to me then, um, I actually went to a very liberal high school. Uh, you know, back when you were a year nine. No, no, school is liberal liberal enough for you, but in national terms, I went to a pretty liberal place. [00:05:30] Um, and I'm not I won't say that. Um, homophobia and transphobia didn't exist. Of course they existed. But the kind of stories I heard at that in in Wellington with people from all around New Zealand were utterly heartbreaking. Um, and at one moment, uh, I was kind of like in this position where I could look into everyone's eyes at once. I was, you know, in in front, kind of addressing the crowd. And I looked into the eyes of this one, suspended gay couple who were obviously And you know beautifully in love. [00:06:00] And I had a weird sort of, um, internal transformation because it was at once the most beautiful and the most sad thing I'd ever seen in my life because it was beautiful, because obviously, you know, that this couple were in love and it was wonderful, and it was unmistakable of that. Like any couple, you can kind of tell. Um and that was my first reaction. My second reaction was, this is the first time I've seen this. Why is that? And, you know, the answer came to me. Um, [00:06:30] I guess you know, um, I can't think of any matter of cliche. Has to say to say how this came to me, but it was It was This is being suppressed. This is people. People are afraid to show this, and it was terrifying. It was tragic because you know it. It seems trite to say there isn't enough love in the world. But any couple and any any people that are truly in love should not be forced to hide that ever and the fact that people are not only forced to hide it, but also, you know, if they don't hide [00:07:00] it, um, receive terrible sanctions. Disgusted me and yeah, I guess that's the drive for me is to make sure that, uh, people like that couple I saw and, you know, in the front row can be as public as they want to, just like the rest of us going back to, uh, 2011. And I was at the Asia Pacific Art Games Human rights conference and there wasn't a huge amount of talk about marriage [00:07:30] equality. And I'm just wondering, How did you rev up the the communities to to actually get in behind this? You know that that's a good question. Like I think, like I've said, the real impetus in New Zealand was external. I think it was it was Barack Obama saying this is actually a possibility. That said, um, the who that I've been to There has been a lot of people that said, You know, I do want to get married, and this is incredibly important to me. Um, it's possible [00:08:00] that maybe it wasn't envisioned as something that that, you know, um could happen this this close after civil unions. Maybe it needed to to wait a little longer for that memory to to fade. Um, but I think that that's been proven to be false. And I think that, yeah, now it's It's become clear that, um, you know, the modern era is a time for marriage equality across the world, including New Zealand, um, regardless of of our status with civil unions. And I think it's high time for that. Um, and in terms of revving [00:08:30] up rev people up for for marriage, I think it's split between people who see it as a civil human rights issue and who, you know passionately believe that law should be equal and also those who are driven, Um, basically by their their passion for fighting transphobia and homophobia and who see the obvious link between an incredibly unequal law and the message that that sends to 14 year old boys and girls and everything in between and high schools coming out and the government saying, Um [00:09:00] basically that the the bullying you're experiencing now is going to be replicated in adulthood by unequal laws. And I think that, you know, personally that that is one of the worst parts of have not having marriage. Equality is the message that that sends to to young people that there is law change. But there are other ways of changing people's behaviour and thought patterns. Do Do you have any thoughts about what are other things that we can all do to to make it a better place? [00:09:30] OK, I think I mean, I guess the most obvious response, um, is at the moment there's there's a tendency to use, um, the word gay as a pejorative term. And I think that's one of the first things that we can try and get rid of. I know that, um, my high school in college and and some classes has, um you used to have swear jars. Now people have to, you know, give a contribution if they use the word gay as an insult, which I think you know, is quite a clever way of dealing with the problem. But yeah, I think [00:10:00] AAA part from law change. It is really just I mean, the answer is simpler than a lot of us, kid to realise it's every time we encounter an incidence of homophobia or transphobia, and even if it's not intended, especially if it's not intended, actually, um, basically catching the person out and saying, You know, we we're not saying you're a terrible person, but that behaviour you just demonstrated is not good and not acceptable. And please stop, and I think it it seems pity, and it seems [00:10:30] like it's not a It's not a huge response, but it actually is. And if if everyone started doing that and if everyone, you know, actively show actively kind of showed that they were not, um, accepting of hoop homophobia and transphobia, I think the bigots would actually the true bigots, not the ones who who demonstrate this behaviour, but the ones who are actually proud of it. Um would realise what a small minority they are. I think a lot of us are implicit allies, um, of homophobia and transphobia without even realising it. Um, [00:11:00] even if even if you don't sort of casually and unthinkingly use the word gay, um, I would assume that a lot of us stand by while that happens. So sort of not standing by is, I think, the the biggest thing that most of us can do, um, and just practising equality and practising that acceptance in our day to day lives actively. Instead of passively, but doesn't that really put yourself in the firing line for a lot of a lot of crap? It can do, um, And [00:11:30] understand that I'm not for one second saying that everyone has an obligation to as a straight person, I don't have to worry about constantly defending myself from homophobic and transphobic attacks. Um, it seems to me that that if if we with our you know, cis gendered and heteros privilege, um, because that's what it is, it's it's and and Hege don't have the courage to kind of take some of that. [00:12:00] And not in every case, Not when you know that the the retaliation is going to be violent. But if we if we don't have the courage to sort of stand up for that, um then how can we really expect, like our our friends and our allies and our brothers and sisters to do the same? And it it's it's sort of as as heterosexuals and as as suspended people, there's only so much we can do. But that's something we can do. And I think we have an obligation to do that, really like the way I see it, the way I see it, I would like to jump into my friends' [00:12:30] heads sometimes and, you know, fight their personal battles for them because that's what friends do. They they defend each other. But you can't, um you can't sort of jump into their heads and help fight their depression and help fight the homophobia internally. So I think the reaction is, if you can't do it internally, you have to actually do it externally. You have to go out and not maybe not seek out people who are homophobic or, you know, knowingly or unknowingly homophobic. [00:13:00] But at least like dealing with it when it happens. And I'm not saying that I've done that every time. And I don't think there's anyone who really does. Um, because there are There are circumstances in which you think, you know, maybe this isn't wise. Maybe, you know, this is this is actually would be dangerous to me. And I'm not for a second encouraging people to put themselves in harm's way. But I think that, um, fearing sort of some sort of social rejection for standing up for your friends. Um, I don't know. I think I think people would [00:13:30] actually be surprised, to be honest, if, like, it's incredibly uncomfortable to to put yourself in that position. And, you know, there are some people who, um, would be, like, physically unable to put themselves in that position. Um, people with social anxiety, Um, and and you know, anything else and, you know, that's not for a second kind of condemning that. But people who feel themselves able to, I think, should yeah. Do you think your sense of social justice came prior to going into law? [00:14:00] Or was it something that happened after going into studying law? Um, this This happened before. I think it was actually the other way around. Um, I think I went in and, well, every law student says this, I suppose. And I guess it's pretty arrogant to kind of say it, but I think law, at least in part, was out of a desire to enact change. But again, like I say, most students most law, I mean, most law students go into it wanting to make change and going out, wanting to just make money. So we you know, we'll see ask me again in two years, but yeah. So [00:14:30] where to now? for you. You're you're studying the law at the moment. Where Where do you think that will lead you? Well, I'm I'm not entirely sure, I guess just from a pragmatic perspective, Um, as well as as being involved in campaigns. I do want something that will give me a steady income in life. Um, but I also think that law can be used for good. And I think the ideal situation would be to join with a sort of social group that stuck up for people in unfortunate [00:15:00] legal situations. Um, and gave sort of advice to them. Like, I know this is just a hypothetical, but I know as as a high schooler, um, I had absolutely zero information about what my rights were or what? You know, My obligations were for that matter, Um, and I would have really appreciated, um, not not necessarily a lawyer so that I could sue my high school. I liked my high school, um, but it it occurred to me sometimes, you know, I don't know what my rights are. I like I. I know what I think my rights are, but [00:15:30] I don't really know precisely what I'm entitled to do? Um, and I think a lot of like a response to that, because I think it's it's more than it's more people than me that just they just think that, um uh, there are two kind of responses to as a student, not knowing your rights. The first is to kind of bow down and go Oh, well, you know it's not worth it. And the second one is to just openly and, um, you know, aggressively Rebel, which I'm not going to comment on whether I did or not, but it it's sort of like if you know exactly what you're entitled to, but also know exactly [00:16:00] like what your what your obligations are like. If you know your rights and responsibilities. I think you can make change in a more effective way, and you can deal respectfully with school boards and you can deal effectively with with school boards because you know where you stand. And you know, I'm not saying that will end in a lawsuit, but I am saying that if both parties are kind of dealing with each other on equal terms, it will possibly lead to a really good outcome. So, yeah, in terms of, uh, of, uh I [00:16:30] don't know how else to really address where to. I don't have a 10 year plan. Um, my plan at the moment is to, um, fight for this bill, get it through parliament and then party for 10 weeks. If you had something to say to, uh, students going through high school now that maybe, um, don't have the support networks that you know are in larger centres or in in schools that aren't necessarily as as friendly. Um, what would that be? All right, there's a group called QS a network [00:17:00] which is sitting up in Wellington and has already had one national hobby. Seek them out. Um, and this is, um this is mainly for, um, you know, quest alliances within high schools. But even if you you want to set up your own of, um, just student support network, regardless of whether it's it's queer, friendly or not, seek advice from them, but especially if you're if you're trying to start a QS a or even if you're not trying to start a QS. A. Even if you just want support personally, seek this group out because they do a lot of good. Um, they, [00:17:30] you know, the the group started this year, but the people responsible for organising it transformed my life personally, and I know that they have the power to do that to anyone.
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