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And welcome to the marriage Equality Conference. We're here tonight to talk about fighting homophobia, workplaces, schools, family and elsewhere. It's my privilege to be here as the chair for tonight. I am the conference chair, and my name is and we have a few, um, pretty decent people on the panel tonight. Um Well, not pretty decent. They are decent people. Um, we've got could have that perspective. [00:00:30] Well, and it is my job to try to control this lot. It's gonna be quite entertaining. OK, uh, we have, uh, Nigel at the end, come all the way from Northland. So, uh, please a round of applause for we've got Steve Farrow from PPT. A, uh, rainbow network. We have Eileen Brown from out at work. [00:01:00] Bill Logan, a longtime queer activist for especially from 1986 and helping with, uh, the conference. So, uh, a round of applause for his help. And we do hope to have Jan Logie some time. Um, tonight's, uh, run sheet is basically, uh, we're gonna go through these guys. We'll get the the panel, we'll get them over and done with, and, you know, you can move on, but, um, basically, [00:01:30] you know, it is a really serious issue. Uh, it's one of the major campaigns that I, um, personally think is important. Um, I was fortunate enough to be in Australia to launch their anti homophobia campaign recently while you guys were here rallying. Um, for this for this campaign. Um, so it's a privilege to be, uh, welcoming you all here tonight. We've had a great time so far. At a conference last night, we had, sir Ian, um, saying that he could potentially get married [00:02:00] at Middle Earth, which is quite exciting. And it hit international media coverage, which I'm very proud of. Uh, we are in France Press, which is quite exciting. So, um, you know, our messages are getting, um, out there and and and to have Sir Ian to, um, support us has been, uh, fantastic, actually. Um, each of the panel members will be talking about their experiences. You'll obviously know the different connections. Um, but, uh, for those, [00:02:30] if you don't know, you have to just wait a bit tired to introduce a little bit, but it's ok, um but we will have them to go through, and then there will be questions and comments at the end. Just note that we are being recorded at the moment. So if you don't want to be recorded, please say so or come and see us at the end. The technicians at the back will, uh, will cut your comments out. If you are wanting to to ask a question, uh, and we'll have a chance for final remarks and general notices at the end. We now welcome Bill [00:03:00] Logan to speak. Mostly I want to talk about Queer Avengers, um, which is really one of the more amazing organisations I've ever had anything to do with, uh, if only for the rather incredibly diverse range of people involved in it the widest range of age and [00:03:30] gender identity. Uh uh, And, uh, maybe other kind of, uh, thing that you can think of it started, Really? I think, with a round of rather nasty gay bashings in Wellington. What was it? Only last year? Early last year. And we had this big demonstration of the night. Uh, and out [00:04:00] of that was a determination not to let it go on and not to leave it at a single demonstration, but to give it a continuing existence. And so we set up this this little organisation, um, and we sat around for quite a long time simply talking about what our priorities would be. And so we kind of developed [00:04:30] Well, there's this old myth that, uh, the world rests on three whales. And I see, uh, queer Avengers as having three whales that it sits on. The question of homophobia in schools, the question of the oppression of trans folk [00:05:00] and the question of homophobia in relation to, uh, to old age. Jan yeah. So those schools, [00:05:30] I believe, are the worst place in New Zealand to not be straight the I mean, I suppose teenagers are by their nature, trying to work out who they are and a bit difficult about it. Uh, and some of that difficulty in the context of New Zealand turns out to be hurting one another if they don't fit the proper gender stereotype very often. Uh, [00:06:00] and that is often supported more or less actively, sometimes not so actively by the staff of the schools. So you have an environment where there's bullying in many places, and that's pretty nasty. It's it. It it. It's reinforced by uniform codes and other like bathrooms and so on, which [00:06:30] make it difficult to to decide to be neutral, to be to to to change your mind. Uh, and and, uh, there's nowhere to go that's intersex. In many, many cases, we need teacher education. We need systematic intervention against bullying. We need queer student, [00:07:00] a queer straight alliances or similar institutions in in every school. We need the ER O, the Education Review Authority, to check in every school in ordinary in every report they do on whether there is bullying at a school. Whether there is homophobia that should be routine, it can be done very, very easily just by a signature from the minister. Doesn't not a big big reform to ask, [00:07:30] but that's slow, Uh, and it would make a huge difference, actually, just that little change that every school was reported on in relation to bullying and homophobia and problems in that school. Um, and we also need mechanisms to support kids who are identified at school as having problems from [00:08:00] their families because we in queer support organisations very often find that these kids kicked out of their families and there's got to be some way of catching this up. You know, 15 16 year olds kicked out of their families, and we actually have no way of dealing with this as a society. It's extraordinarily difficult to get the independent youth [00:08:30] benefit for these kids, and they are universally suicidal, like I don't know of exceptions. There must be exceptions, but I don't know of exceptions to kids getting kicked out of home, UH, a A and being suicidal. So there's a huge set of problems there, and Queer Avengers sees this as one of its main priorities. [00:09:00] We also see support for trans struggles as a priority. We tend to be guided by trans organisations who are active on these issues. Uh, we wish to support access to decent health care and medical attention, and we want to support extension of the human rights legislation for trans [00:09:30] folk. And the third thing is queer old people, because queer old people, like other old people, get forgotten. And if you get forgotten in the context of being heterosexual, the forgetting it can be unfortunate. But it, uh, it isn't quite as alienating. And, uh, the general de sexualization of the old [00:10:00] is much more severe in our society for queer people. Uh, we haven't got very far with that sort of project. We're an organisation that does a lot of talking, a lot of working out of what we should do. We have an ethos, and we haven't got very far with the talking in in relation to old age queer issues, [00:10:30] the ethos of talking of thinking about family structures, ideology, politics is pretty unusual. I find, uh, in this organisation at this time at this historical period. There is not much talk among young people in particular in New Zealand about these kinds of issues. And one of the exceptions to that [00:11:00] lack of talk is in Queer Avengers. So as a group that is dominated by young people, grappling these issues and giving attention to, uh, the wider community and not their own narrow concerns is pretty impressive. I think it's an organisation which gives a place for thought, a place for discussion, a place for completely unrestricted sexualities and identities, [00:11:30] and a place for a lot of laughter. Uh, one of the things which is unusual. I go to a lot of meetings, uh, a lot of meetings and I must say that one of the differences about Queer Avengers is that there's an awful lot of laughter at those meetings. Uh, so I think, on those grounds alone, it's an organisation which should be taken pretty [00:12:00] seriously. The politics of members of Queer Avengers ranges from not much at all to bit liberal to raving Commie. Um, I am at one end of that spectrum. I won't tell you which end. Um, [00:12:30] but the interesting thing about it is that there's a huge tolerance and, um, openness to each other's opinions. And so there tends to be, um, a bit of a ferment of ideas and a productive tension of ideas in the organisation. So, I, I think that we've got to, [00:13:00] uh, IIII. I was asked to get up and talk about the organisation. I'm very proud to have been asked to do that, because I think that it's an organisation which offers more to our communities than any other single organisation. There is. Thanks. Thank you, Bill. Um, next up, we're going to [00:13:30] have Eileen Brown and Steve Farrow to talk about out of work in PPT A in the Rainbow new league. Um, I've had the great pleasure to work with Eileen in a recent campaign. And that was, um, a great experience. Thank you for that. But thank you for coming along tonight as well. Thanks. Um, thanks very much. Uh, um, Steve and I, Steve's my union brother, and we're one tonight, [00:14:00] so, um, don't know what you call us, but, uh, I'm going to talk a bit about the art of Work Network, which is the CTU New Zealand Council of Trade Unions Network. And Steve is, uh, from the Post-primary Teachers Association. And that's an affiliate of the CTU. And, um, that, uh, union has its own network too. But let me tell you a little bit about, um, our network and it was great, um, to follow. Bill, Um, I loved [00:14:30] the, um, comment that you made about a lot of laughter because I'm involved in quite a lot of CD U groups, and I'd have to say See, the keep our ass sales campaign had a lot of laughter, too, and but certainly out at work, we have a lot of laughter and yeah, a lot of creativity. Um, So it's our network for lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans transgender intersex and union members. And [00:15:00] any member of the union affiliated to the CTU can belong to the out of work network. So some unions like the PPT A like a post Primary Teachers Association like the Public Service. And I recognise a couple of out of work people from the PS a here or who have been members of the PS a out of work network. Um, here tonight. Some unions like those unions as well as the Service and Food Workers Union, uh, have got networks of their own. [00:15:30] But it does mean when we have AC TU network that any member of a union who's affiliated to the CTU can be part of a network. Uh, and many unions don't have networks, uh, lesbian, gay, trans, transgender, intersex and workers. And from now on, I'll just use the word queer because that's how we get stuck with acronyms. And, um, that's the word that we chose to use so that [00:16:00] queer workers are a sizable group in the New Zealand workforce and there are significant employment issues, and I'm sure we'll hear some of them tonight. The disc the, uh, Human Rights Commission inquiry to be who I am found that work discrimination was the most common discrimination faced by transgender workers. And discrimination is one of the most common forms of um, discrimination in the workplace is one of the most common forms of discrimination [00:16:30] experienced by queer workers. So our networks committed to expo, exposing the employment issues that queer workers face and to eliminate discrimination based on sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression. Highlighting those issues is a fundamental objectives for us, but it's not only a fight about discrimination in the workforce. We also have a challenge in the union movement, too. While diversity is seen as one [00:17:00] of the strengths of the union movement, in many cases the concept of diversity in trade unions falls well short of celebrating and accepting sexual diversity. So we organise in our network a fight against homophobia and transphobia in a number of different ways. We, um I just want to recognise the work of Jack Byrne, um, from the Human Rights Commission who has been very involved in our network and, um, educate us a lot about Transphobia. [00:17:30] A critical event for us is our biennial camp and camps spelled K a MP where Queer Union members get together with speakers, workshops and training events, which have a focus on union employment issues like the kind of issues that our workers are facing now with the reduction of employment rights. But we also and, uh, we plan and organise about the fight against homophobia and transphobia and make a plan about things that we're going to, um, do in the following two years, [00:18:00] Marie Bruce Mitchell has been a speaker at our camp a number of times and led workshops on transgender awareness and training. And they are. So she is, um they are so, uh that they are very, very important and and and they're so life changing. I think, um, that's certainly the feedback that we've had. Uh, we've had some pretty amazing speakers that have inspired us over the five camps. What's been most powerful is people telling their personal stories [00:18:30] and challenging us as as a network and guiding our and helping us recognise and challenge our own internal homophobia and transphobia. So it's really important for us to be a constitutional part of the CTU. We we are in the Constitution. I can't remember what number but this part of part of being, um it it being part of the Constitution gives us a standing. It enables us to respond [00:19:00] on issues of significant importance. This week, we made a press statement, Um uh, followed by the International Trade Union Confederation's press statement about the, uh, current bill before the Ugandan Parliament, which brings the death penalty for certain homosexual acts. And I'm sure people here know about it, and, um, we can find out some information. You can find out some information if you want further. We wrote to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Murray McCully, urging [00:19:30] him to take a stand on the, um uh, and urging that the Commonwealth Leaders Forum should take a stand against Uganda on this bill. The CTU has endorsed the Montreal Declaration on the rights of, uh LGBTI workers and people and supports the YOY Cara principles. So we actually have established policy for standing out on standing up and speaking out against gay and human rights abuses when we need to speak out publicly. [00:20:00] So finally, in relation to the Marriage Equality bill, the out of work network was quite well prepared with a position on marriage equality before the bill was even drawn after we witnessed the fiasco on the other side of the ditch with the position of the Aussie Trade Union movement on marriage, Equality, our youth network and our standard work stand Sorry. Our out of work network developed a paper last the end of last year, which placed the reasons why the CTU and our unions should [00:20:30] support marriage, equality and same sex marriage and same sex adoption. And that paper was unanimously supported by our affiliates in February 2012. The basis in our position, paper was firmly on equality. And how can you How can trade unionists not vote for equality? So no wonder we were unanimously, you know, we got a unanimous endorsement because equality is a is a fundamental trade union value. We said in that paper that trade [00:21:00] unions need to be on the right side of history in New Zealand, at least on this issue. So we acknowledge that the CTU, uh, leadership um, Helen Kelly and Peter Conway are are completely supportive of our out of work network. Um, including we get some financial support, but that support exists because of the hard work, leadership and commitment of people in the out of network who fly the flag every day in the unions and in their workplaces. And they're totally committed to a fight against homophobia and transphobia. [00:21:30] So in, um, eight days, we're going to go to the select Committee and we'll be represented by Kina Brown from the Art at Work Network comes from Christchurch and Helen Kelly, who will represent the CTU. And we'll inform the New Zealand Parliament that CTU supports marriage equality because trade, because a core trade union value is equality. So thanks very much. I've got a couple of, um, promos. We've got that, uh, little, um, pamphlet [00:22:00] on on, uh, on our network. And one thing I didn't mention, um which I'll just refer to lastly, is that, uh, the Public Service Association have done some very interesting work on a paper called Sexual Orientation and Gender Minorities in the New Zealand Workplace. And it is online. Um, So if you are interested, just, um, speak to me. Speak to Sarah. You I'm sure she'll hit you in the right direction. Um, but that's quite [00:22:30] an interesting paper. Looking at the experience of New Zealand public sector workers in the workplace today, so thank you. I'll pass over to Steve. Um, PB D. A post-primary Teachers Association. Um, has had a rainbow network. Originally, it was called the Safe Schools Task force. Lovely mouthful, [00:23:00] Um, and that was established in the, um, late in the mid 19 nineties. Um, it was, um, constituted as a result of a vote at PP. A annual conference and its original brief was to prepare materials that could be used in educating teachers and raising the issues of homophobia, um, [00:23:30] and equality and all those sorts of things. And those things were written in a around about the turn of the century. Um, since then, the group has continued and about 18 months ago changed its name to the Rainbow Network. Um, one of the things that has, um there wasn't a lot of uptake, I must say, out of the materials that were originally written, Um, and there is a safe school, um, toolkit [00:24:00] that's on the PP. A website. And anybody I think, actually can get to it from the public side. Um, but about 18 months two years ago, um, one of the members of the of the task force was actually sent to a, um, seminar thing in Aussie that was run by some educators from the National Education Association, which is one of the big American teacher unions. And they actually have dedicated GL BT I educators [00:24:30] for work within the Union. Um, New Zealand hasn't managed to get that far yet. Really? But, um, these people running workshops on the sorts of courses that could be delivered the person who went for us came back and reworked the material so that it had New Zealand focus. And we're now trying to run, um, run that out across the country. Um, and the first [00:25:00] one is about language. Um, the idea is that it would be a an after school professional development session of about an hour to an hour and a quarter. That would be run with the whole staff. Um, naturally enough for that to happen. You've actually got to be invited in. And as comments were made by Bill before schools can be very difficult places in terms of believing that actually the problem exists. Um, the number of times we've heard [00:25:30] that statement, there are no gays in this school. Good. Right. Um actually talking about homophobia. Um, I do have some personal experience of it. Um, not that I'm here to put hearts on sleeves and stuff, but, um, having been put in the situation only because I moved to a small town, which I actually liked, the town a place called Westport, where I was teaching at [00:26:00] the high school there. And not long after I arrived, I met a very nice man who was a a long term resident. He'd been born there and he said to me, You've only got to be seen down the You've been seen down the street with me once. If you're seen down the street with me twice, you're out. I chose to be seen twice. Now, by then, I'd been teaching for 20 years. I didn't have too many problems in with class discipline All of a sudden, every [00:26:30] and respect for the building. Maybe. But every asshole kid now had a reason why they could act up in my room. And it did become absolute. If I'd been 23 the age I was when I started teaching instead of 42 I actually probably would have died over the harassment that happened. And that was despite the fact that, um, that [00:27:00] was 2000. Uh, sorry. 1996. Despite the fact that three years earlier the, um, Human Rights Act had been passed, which outlawed discrimination on the basis of, um, sexual orientation. Um, my boss's view, when a colleague of mine asked him about it, was that he neither condemned nor Condoned. Mm. Um, I actually couldn't leave my room during intervals and lunchtimes unlocked, [00:27:30] because if I did, I'd come back and find it turned upside down. Nobody ever found out who the kids were, but that actually does happen in New Zealand schools. I also know, since those, you know, when I lived with in 2003, um, and I left, um, regretfully, um, and I taught at the high school by them for eight years. Um, the number of kids who have contacted me from that school since then [00:28:00] who I wouldn't have had a clue what their sexual orientation was. I mean, as a teacher, it's not really a thing of much interest to me about the pupils in front of me, but have come to me afterwards and said that they appreciated what I'd had to put up with, but also that it was actually worth having visible gay lesbian into six transgender people working in the education system in terms of role modelling [00:28:30] and normalisation of our condition within society. So working towards that jumping now forward a bit to the Rainbow Task Force, the materials that were brought back have been reworked, and it get the staff to examine. First of all, it says, why you need to examine it. It looks a pedagogy of Hey, we've got to look after the safety of all kids, and [00:29:00] if we don't look after their safety first, they'll never learn. So Maslow's hierarchy of needs all that garbage, um, and then have a look at their understanding of what the words GL BT I and you know exactly what it meant. And then look at why it might be needed to address language in schools across the board. And we [00:29:30] use the, um, uh, use health. Um, 2002 was it? And 2007. And there's a new mine of information just about to arrive out of the one done last year and highlight the terrible statistics that are demonstrated there of what happens to gay and lesbian students and intersex and transgender, um, and then intersperse that with a few of those lovely, um, public service announcement [00:30:00] advertisements that happened in America, none of which happened in New Zealand. Things like it's so gay and people being challenged over that and then, um, get them to talk about how they might challenge that sort of. And we keep it really simple in talking about language. In the end, what we want them to challenge is any student who says, Let's go and just doing [00:30:30] that in every classroom. Every time I remember, I used to say when kids in my class who knew I was gay would say about something else that's gay, I'd say, No, it isn't, it's netball And I'd go what? Mr you know, but teachers who don't realise there's a problem are a problem Now what we have done with this programme, I, um, [00:31:00] co facilitate co facilitated it with a member of executive to the PP, a national executive this year, so that they could see what the hell we were talking about. And then a pilot programme was established where, um we picked well, we tried to get to 10 to a dozen schools across the country. Single sex, rural, you know, a whole mix and the programme has been delivered. The evaluation hasn't yet happened. But if you know anybody who's attached to a high school, [00:31:30] get them to contact PPD a and we will have the programme taken to them. So that's what an individual union is doing to try and combat that problem within the education sector. Going back to something you said Bill. Actually, there was a change under Chris Carter. He wasn't a very good minister of education, unfortunately, But he did get added in to the inspection of schools The thing about looking at homophobic, um, rules [00:32:00] and regs within the school. Um, unfortunately, government since then, you know it's leadership and insistence. And that's why, um, getting buy in within a school. It takes the principle and getting a buy in for the ministry. Or actually, they need to be hounded by their political masters. There isn't that will at the moment. Unfortunately, [00:32:30] I do know that both PB D A and lots of other organisations rainbow Wellington, for example, have lobbied successive governments that are actually just addressing bullying isn't enough. Homophobic bullying is actually quite a separate beast and is partly the reason for the difficulties that a particular group of students in a school faces. So that's what's happening in some places. [00:33:00] Thank you. Eileen and Steve. Um, after today's discussion, we had, uh, teddy talk about, um, Q SAS and organising in school. So I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of discussion if not at question time. But after the networks, Like I said earlier, um, it's my privilege to introduce a phenomenal star. Um, [00:33:30] I've been watching this person for a very long time. Uh, since I found out about, uh, her and, um, have been quite inspired by the work that she continues to do on an everyday basis. Uh, Jen, um is a fellow colleague. I fortunate enough to work with her sometimes, but, um, I met Jan, uh, during the national elections last year. Fortunately, I did something a bit silly, but, um, she's forgiven me since [00:34:00] I hope she doesn't even know about it. But, um, Jen, uh, has done an amazing amount of work. Um, not only for the queer community. Um, but for women's rights. And, um, I really do look forward to seeing her career develop over time. And and very, um, happy to see the work that you do do in Parliament and outside Parliament. So welcome to the stage, Jan. [00:34:30] I'm a little embarrassed about that introduction. Thanks. Um, so tonight and it's great. I see Murray rich in the audience here, and I'm going to talk quite a bit about, um, your research, Murray, actually. And, um So while not being the expert, um, it's your work That kind of gives a basis for a lot of my thinking about where things are at at the moment, um, which was a report that was sponsored by Kevin Hague [00:35:00] that Murray researched and wrote last year, called How do we make It better? Um, and it's about the safety of queer Youth. Um, and I think gives us a lot of really, really good pointers about what we need to be doing in this country. And I also want to talk a bit about I guess the community and environment sector, because that's where I come from and share a kind of, I think, a story that's a bit of a contrast or a bit of an example, I think of what we [00:35:30] could be doing, which is, and it's kind of a personal story, my coming out story as well. Um, because Murray's research shows that for young queer youth, one of the biggest problems is just the assumption of heterosexuality and the fact that, you know, we're living in a world that's just assuming everyone straight. And when you [00:36:00] trying to work out your place in the world and work out who you are and you're surrounded by all these images that are telling you, what it is to be is to be straight and what you're feeling and what you're noticing in yourself doesn't match that it it's a problem, and it causes a lot of problem. And if I think for myself, you know, I've now I identify as a lesbian. [00:36:30] When I was at school, you know, I tried having boyfriends. My first boyfriend thought I was a lesbian. I didn't get it all the you know, all the bitches on my walls were girls. I didn't know what he was talking about, like, because it just wasn't an option. I just had no sense that that was any kind of reality. It was [00:37:00] just, you know, you were straight. So I was trying my best. It wasn't quite working, but I was trying and and that's so I And there were a lot of problems for me that went along with that. You know, I was really, really unhappy. Had mental health issues, made no connection to any of that stuff. It just it didn't They weren't related in my head. I had no understanding that it was about sexuality at all. It was just I didn't [00:37:30] get the world. Um, and then interestingly, I moved to Wellington. So that was kind of going all through university and university, being really the same, like very in fact, possibly as you know, living in hostels and universities. And I know Sara is doing research on that, and I'm really interested in the outcomes of that, because for me it was a very, very heterosexual environment and incredibly difficult [00:38:00] to, um to try and be straight in when you weren't really which I can now say reflecting back on, um and then moved to Wellington and worked for Women's Refuge and women's refuge is a really interesting organisation because there are four cornerstone values within refuge and one of those is feminism and another is bicultural. Um, another is collectivism, and the fourth one is lesbian [00:38:30] visibility. And on my very first day at work and the weekend, actually, um, I had to go and pick up some donations and I was going to be working with a volunteer, and I had to go on the door and knock on the door and pick her up and opened the door. And I was like, Oh, oh, gosh, you know, like and I'm sure there was a whole lot more to it than that, but [00:39:00] and she was incredibly hot. But there was something about there being in that environment in that organisation, a clear naming of a space to be that I do think influenced my ability to be. And I think it's quite profound. And it's something that is a very, [00:39:30] very, very rare space. And in in that space, you know, the lesbian, um, within. And I think, you know, obviously there's issues with the naming of that, that it's lesbian visibility. It's not any wider than that, Um, but it was for me. Luckily, being lesbian incredibly, um, free thing And the collective there was a collective. [00:40:00] So there was the, um, lesbian collective and or caucus and the rest of the collective and all the cool kids were in the lesbian caucus, which also really helped because it was, you know, there was this kind of group that you were drawn to and if you weren't and I resisted coming up publicly for a while because it was I wanted to and I loved being able to, um, with this newfound knowledge, be able to challenge homophobia as a straight woman, [00:40:30] you know? So it did take me a while, but, um but, uh, yeah, I think community organisations We have a lot of them in this country and they play really important roles in our society. And I think it's really important that we actually look at the potential of those spaces for developing our society and also how we can take some of the models that they're using into other spaces. [00:41:00] Like, I imagine, you know, the queer straight alliances and schools are in effect the same thing as for me, that lesbian visibility, that lesbian caucus and just by being there enable people to be able to be there. Um and I think so, Yeah. So that's that point I wanted to make. Also, I worked in, [00:41:30] um, Youth health for a while and because another thing in Murray's report is looking around, um, services for young people and the importance of the professionals having the right knowledge. And it was, you know, youth health services. That was the second one in the country, the one I set up. But now they're even though, of course, they're having funding struggles increasingly, but they there are quite a few of them around the country. And they are [00:42:00] a very important space that they're confidential, um, nonjudgmental services with peer support programmes. However, you can't assume that even within that space, people are gonna get it that people are going to understand queer realities that, um I had ongoing dramas when I was there with, um, tragically with our representative, who every [00:42:30] time she came to the centre would rip down the queer visibility posters and that'd suddenly be gone When I went and looked around. So I had to continually replace them. Thank you. AIDS foundation. Um and so that was a real tension. And and those those posters were part of providing that space of saying yes, we know you're here, you can talk to us. And another, [00:43:00] the peer support workers would quite often we had, um quite early on the discussions about is it OK to say that's so gay? And they were like, Well, you know, it's just language. It doesn't mean anything. I was like, OK, so So right now you're telling me you're straight and I'm walking in here questioning my sexuality and I hear you say that am I welcome [00:43:30] and they got it. But unless somebody's got that analysis to have that conversation, they come, you know, it would just keep going and those safe spaces would not be safe. As I can imagine, many schools are not safe, and many youth organisations are not safe because there are. You can't guarantee at the moment that there is the training for the social workers or for the nurses or for the doctors, or for the school [00:44:00] teachers to ensure and to know what is safe and what isn't, which was another point in various research very handily. Um, and another point that he's making, um, which is around, you know, bullying is one factor. Isolation is another and visibility is another. And I can speak to that too. From my experience of, um also of having come out and [00:44:30] then going and living in a culture. Um, we are I didn't have a community and I wasn't out. And how for the for the first time, I left that culture after, um, being there for a year. And I saw somebody and they spotted me. And like I honestly, I skipped for about 100 metres after they'd spotted me because it was so amazing to be seen [00:45:00] after a year of not being seen and these things that they sound like, you know, they're one word in a report or actually, you wrote a few paragraphs, but, um but, you know, like you can just say invisibility is a problem, but actually, unless we think about what that means and how profound that is not to see yourself reflected or not to see a diversity reflected [00:45:30] to give you a space of choice of being, Then we're not going to be able to make a difference. And our young people are going to continue to really struggle. Another point, um, which is linking to that is that, um, the struggle over diversity within our own communities? A. And we see that on many levels. We see that around, um, 10 [00:46:00] of ethnicity and sexuality and people being us, still struggling, I think, at times to have spaces where people are able to be themselves and fully in their cultural identity and fully within their sexual orientation or gender identity. And that, for me, is a space that I have spaces that I hope we can work much harder to create because they're going to be beautiful, beautiful spaces. [00:46:30] But I'm yet to see them very often, and I and I think it's a tragic, tragic thing if people feel as if they have to choose. And I don't think that's just the fault. If you take um, the example of the Pacific groups that were marching and protesting against marriage equality, I don't think it's just their fault that there's that tension. [00:47:00] I think there is something and I say this as a woman who has a responsibility around that, um so I think and also obviously in terms of I certainly think from when I first came out to now we've made progress, and that's for me, not as the group affected, but in terms of integration and understanding of inclusion of gender, um, diversity and, um, intersex analysis [00:47:30] and understanding within the, you know, the dominant gay lesbian cultures. Um, but we still need to acknowledge I think that the gay lesbian cultures are still dominant and we need to give up a bit of that power and a bit of that space, um, to allow others to be and create more spaces so that we have the full beauty of our communities more readily at hand. Um, [00:48:00] I feel like, um so in terms of my job now in Parliament, Obviously there's I think that's a really key space in terms of legislative change that needs to be done not being in government. We don't have the power to impact directly around policy, and there's a lot of policy work. I think that needs to be done, particularly in relation to schools. But I also think within the health sector, um, and supporting community organisations and that diversity, [00:48:30] understanding and awareness um, Kevin Haig and I are looking at trying to audit EOS reviews of schools because they do need to be, um, ensuring that schools have anti gay bullying policies and they're ticking them off. But we're wanting to make sure that they check that people know they've got those policies. Not just that the policy exists as we suspect may be, um, the case, [00:49:00] Um, and there's a huge, obviously amount of work to be done in terms of changing the Human Rights Act to ensure that gender identity is a basis for non-discrimination. We need to be, um, ensuring that our health system actually enables people to transition. And I would love to see us do what's happened in Argentina, where people and though we do need to acknowledge that yesterday the Passport Office made [00:49:30] a, um, world leading change in terms of people being able to change their gender identity, Um, which is amazing and great progress. But we could do what Argentina did, and their parliament voted unanimously to enable people to choose themselves. How radical is that? What their gender identity is? No doctors, no lawyers involved, none of them needed. Actually, trusting [00:50:00] people may know themselves crazy concept and how fabulous. That would be to see in our laws. And I would also personally like to see um, quite intrigued by the law that went through in the US this year. Um, making it illegal for religious groups to, um, try and reeducate people out of being gay. Because I know that's happening here. I've [00:50:30] had a friend who's been through one of those courses, thankfully met a girlfriend and the course you. But those kind of courses cost lives, and they and I do not believe they should be allowed. So there is a huge amount of work to do and one of the other, I think, final points to make before I go on too long. Um, that's in. Murray's report is also, I think, to be really mindful of, which is why I'm so pleased [00:51:00] this panel is happening, that there's a temptation that as we make progress in terms of law reform for people, then to assume that everything's OK and to think that homophobia is suddenly gone because we've got the legal changes and well, you know, society has accepted that, so we don't need to be conscious. We don't need to change our systems or our policies anymore, and that is very clearly [00:51:30] and absolutely not true. So it's really great to be able to be having these two conversations at once. And I'm really so pleased that Queer Avengers has organised this. Thank you. We've got to do this money thing again. So I'm I'm going to hand around, uh, these [00:52:00] things some of you have given as much as you can, and that's fine, but that we still have only paid probably a third of the costs of the conference. I think so. I'm just gonna pass these around. It's not too. Yeah. Um, yes. I mean, conference has been, um, very cheap. [00:52:30] We've tried to do this as as cheap as possible to make it as accessible as possible. Uh, and so I'd just like to take the opportunity now to thank all the volunteers for doing all the work. Um, you know, the exhausting amount of hours, uh, sleepless nights and, um, all of the volunteer work that we've managed to pull all of this together and have such a fabulous event. So thank you all for that. So a round of applause for the moment, please. Please. [00:53:00] All right, Our last panel speaker is Nigel Studdard. Now, Nigel's come here, uh, this weekend and joined us in conference. Uh, we've brought him down from Northland. So, uh, uh, Nigel is a a teacher who's been sacked from Northland College for standing up against homophobia. Now I think it's our duty as, um well, [00:53:30] for me, especially as a queer person to stand up and support people like Nigel and the other panel members and even yourselves, you know, we do need to stand up and look after each other, especially when we're the ones that are being attacked. And we are the ones that need to be leading the the the fight for acceptance and equality. And I am absolutely privileged that I've been able to help in some regard to that. But I really do want to thank all of you to be, um, to have been a part of that. It's not [00:54:00] just us that doing the work, it's you that are doing the work. It's the discourse that you are having with your family, your friends and your and getting that out into the community that is really making the difference. It's not just us, so Please don't take, um, what we're doing as the work you're doing the work, right? So, um but we do need to make sure we are standing up and supporting people like Nigel. Nigel said at the time. Obviously he felt really upset that he'd lost his job, [00:54:30] but he couldn't have done anything else. And every time he gets another message, it really confirms what he did was the right thing. The amount of support people have put in behind Nigel was phenomenal. And the discussions I've had with Nigel has been really a true testament to who we are as people who we are as New Zealanders and who we are to make sure that we do support these people. So it's my privilege to, um, have him as our honoured guest during conference and [00:55:00] for me to introduce Nigel ST Thanks for. And it's lovely to be here and thank you all so much for all the support that you've given to me, I think what's really important here is homophobia is not a gay lesbian transgender problem. It's everybody's problem. It's prejudice. Prejudice is [00:55:30] everybody's problem. Now. I'm a straight guy. I've got four kids. I'm married. Um, my partner's a wonderful lady. She's a midwife. She works with families that are going through challenges. What I see in schools I I was really shocked at at Pompeo Catholic College. Really shocked. I didn't really think there was a problem As a teacher, I thought my students were safe. I thought they were happy. That was certainly [00:56:00] the impression that I was getting until we get a polarising event. Now what Polarised The students in that school was a newsletter that was written by the principal. That newsletter was entitled Keeping Marriage sacred. And I'm sure some of you will have read that. Has everybody read that? Has everybody seen that newsletter? I'd encourage you to read through it. It was a newsletter entitled Keeping Marriage Sacred. Um, it's a Catholic school. I understand it's a Catholic school. I'm not a Catholic. I'm a Christian. I teach in a Catholic school [00:56:30] used to teach at a Catholic school. Um, that newsletter went one step beyond what is accepted Catholic doctrine accepted Catholic doctrine is that gay marriage is not acceptable. That newsletter went one step beyond that. It went to a step that I found the first time I read it to just be offensive. I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't really put my finger on it. My daughters could when they read it. What it said was that it [00:57:00] contended that gay parents would be more possessive and in some way less a parents than heterosexual parents. That meant that students in my classroom would be less a parents if they were gay. It meant that if they had parents that were gay in some way, they were lesser parents. Now I knew that to be an absolute untruth and fundamentally wrong. I knew that because I'd already seen the research on this. That research [00:57:30] is evident in proving that it's absolutely untrue. Gay parents are equally as good, if not better, than heterosexual parents. There is no evidence to prove the contrary that I've seen and I'm a scientist. It's my background, so I think it's really important that we establish that as a fact. And I think what you're doing with this conference and what you're doing in supporting the Marriage amendment bill is really vital to New Zealand. Something else that I think [00:58:00] is really important in terms of looking at homophobia. And what's going on is when we see the adverts on television. Now I'm fairly new to New Zealand. I've been here for five years. I love the country, really enjoying it. But I see adverts on television that talk about man control. I don't know what that is. Is that different to girl? Troll? What sort of troll are we talking about? You know, really, there is such a narrow definition of [00:58:30] what a bloke is in New Zealand. I think you need. It needs to be broadened, you know, speaking again from a scientific perspective, There are not two genders. There is a whole spectrum right across the board of gender identity, and every gender identity is just as valid as any other. And that is something that needs to be accepted by society and certainly something that should never be prejudiced against. So that was [00:59:00] the one thing that really got my goat. As a family, we sit down over breakfast, we sit down over dinner and we talk about things. So my wife and I sat down with our two daughters and we were talking about the school newsletter and a school newsletter. I don't know about you, but I sort of expect to see things like George did really well, at hockey. Or, you know, whoever did great at, um, getting a scholarship to Victoria University. Yay! Well done. I don't really expect to see keeping marriage sacred in a school newsletter. [00:59:30] Perhaps I should in a Catholic school newsletter. I certainly don't expect to see prejudice in a school newsletter. I certainly don't in a school that I teach want somebody representing that school. All right, They're saying it's their own opinion. But when you put it on school letterhead and you bash it out to every parent, what you're saying is this is the school community and this is the attitude of the school community. As a teacher, I [01:00:00] was really offended by that. My daughters and my wife were really offended by that because that is not the way that we feel. And that is not the way the majority of the teachers in that school feel. I talked to many of the teachers after I was suspended. Many of them contacted me with support. Most of them were really worried about coming forward and saying anything, [01:00:30] and I think something that really needs to be worked on by the PPT A. And I'd ask the PPT a to really look at this and I as well is that the atmosphere in schools and the authoritarian atmosphere. We talk a lot about the divide between teachers and students and how we must maintain a power dimension between the two. I'm the teacher. I stand at the front. You guys sit down there. I tell you, the way the world works, [01:01:00] it doesn't work like that. I learn as much from all of my students, probably more than I teach them. When I teach, I walk around a classroom. It seems really odd to me standing at the front of the building, I'm much more comfortable wandering around and talking to people. I think that mutual respect is what needs to happen in schools. Schools need to become open places not just in terms of sexual identity, but in terms of valuing [01:01:30] the students' opinions, giving them the right to have those opinions. Now, in the email that I got back from the principal after I wrote, I wrote him an email pretty much as soon as I've read the newsletter and had a chat with it with my family, and I said, You know, I think you need to withdraw this. This will offend an awful lot of the national tolerant community, let alone the gay, lesbian and transgender community. He came back to me and said, This is my opinion and I want to encourage [01:02:00] people to debate the issues around marriage. We encouraged debate, didn't we? Unfortunately, I don't think it encouraged the sort of debate that he was looking for, um, in terms of what he's done to me and the board that supported it. What they've tried to do is shut down that debate and the reason that I stood behind the students when the students wanted to have a protest and wear rainbow ribbons. We're not talking about throwing rocks here. We're [01:02:30] not talking about burning the school down. We're talking about wearing a rainbow ribbon. Yeah, a bit like wearing a daffodil, wearing a poppy wearing a conscience ribbon for breast cancer. I support that. I think kids that have a social conscience are the future of any country, and you shut that down at your peril. We need to encourage our kids to have a conscience. We need to encourage our kids to debate, [01:03:00] to form their own opinions, not just go with what we tell them, because we're not always right so that we need to have that debate. We need to encourage our Children to debate and our students to debate, and we should expect that that's what teachers do in a classroom. Even when I'm teaching science, I don't teach it as an absolute fact because I don't know if you will remember when you were at school. But science has changed. Yeah, but the facts are not the same anymore. Facts [01:03:30] are the world as we understand it now. In 20 years, that world is very different. So I think it's very important that we encourage debate. I think it's very important that schools are places and encourage debate. Now there's been a lot of talk about professional development for teachers. Um, I'd like to go one step before that and a a above that, and I'd like to propose professional development for principals and for senior management teams. Um, my experience with teachers is they're pretty good, actually. [01:04:00] You know, if you're a good teacher, you enjoy teaching you stay in a classroom because you've got great behaviour control and you get on really well with the kids and you take great pleasure in seeing the development of those students. If you're not such a good teacher, you're probably going to go off and and I'm not trying to insult everybody who does it. But you're gonna go off and you're gonna do higher degrees and you're gonna get senior management positions and you might end up a principal. Um, I'm not saying all of them have got bad behaviour management, and [01:04:30] they don't have that mutual relationship with kids, but certainly some of them possibly have a few problems. In my opinion, I think we need to get in there at the top. And I think I needs to get in there at the top of schools and the senior management team, and it needs to make damn sure that those schools are safe for everybody. Certainly in my classroom I would not really ever look around the classroom and think so. And so is Maori. So and so is Pakeha. So and so [01:05:00] is Pacifica. Ah, he might be gay. She might be a lesbian. I just taught kids. Yeah, they were all the same. My classrooms were emotionally safe places for people to be. They could say what they liked. I would cut students some slack. You know, we don't sweat the small stuff. We're there to actually help students to help them form their own opinions. And I think the one message that I'd like everybody to take [01:05:30] home from this is homophobia does exist in New Zealand. It's out there. I was really shocked when I saw it. I spent most of my life a little bit about me. Um, I started life as a cardiac research associate doing a PhD in Liverpool. Um, Bill Boat took off the sea for 25 years. Um, I decided a academia wasn't for me. I then retired and then went into teaching because I needed to keep my brain active. [01:06:00] It wasn't good for me to be doing nothing. I thought homophobia and those sort of prejudices were gone. But, you know, I'm a straight guy. I lead a fairly normal life, and it's a bit like when people say to me, Oh, you know, do you know that there's lots of drugs and everything going on here because I'm not involved in it. I don't see it when you become involved in it. The messages that I have had from other students and other teachers saying thank you for just [01:06:30] saying something because we're all too afraid to stand up and say something. Those messages are heartfelt, and it is so vital what you're doing so vital that you stand up and say something because there are so many people out there that need to hear it. Thank you very much. [01:07:00] Wow. I'm quite emotional, actually, about all of that. And thank you very much for coming down and joining us, Nigel, Um, [01:07:30] the next phase is really handing over to you, uh, and asking the questions of the panellist. We do ask that your, uh, questions are concise and to the point, and we do ask that you're polite and respectful of other people. After all, that's what we're here for is to be respectful and to be asking for equality. So we need to do that within our own ranks as well. So I have me down here, he's got the microphone [01:08:00] and I'll do the standing. I I'll do the, um uh, you know, making sure that you guys are doing your job and these guys are doing their job. We've got a micro frame for the palace here, so I'll hand it over and me is yours on. And I will just, um, take speaking order as well. So, uh, we'll go with ian first. Uh, yeah. Thanks for that. Everyone, uh, I just have a question for Nigel. Um, I liked what you said about, um, that [01:08:30] the problem is at the top. And, like, you know, with career ventures, we've got the crowd schools campaign. There are other similar related things around, like the schools, schools out and the quest alliances. Uh, and I think tomorrow it would be good to have some discussion about how to move forward with school stuff. Um, so it'd be good to have, uh, have your input, but, um, I just wanted to ask about I know there's a still you're still, uh, going, uh, doing a grievance process with the board. So I wanted to ask about that. And, um, if there's anything we can do to support that, first [01:09:00] of all, I'd just like to say thanks for all the support you've done again. It's just been amazing, you know? I mean, there was a point there. I was lying in bed when I got back from doing, you know, and we were sort of my wife and I were lying there at one or two o'clock in the morning, so I'd driven back from Auckland, and I was thinking, Oh, what have I done? You know, how did we end up doing this? And then, you know, we're sitting there and I was like, Well, glad I did. And that night I worked till about 3. 30 in the morning. I got up and I sat down on my computer and I [01:09:30] answered all the messages of support I could by 3. 30 I was sort of running out of steam. So many messages were coming in on Facebook from everybody in support. So what you've been doing is fantastic. First of all, and I would say that to you, to Tappy, to everybody that's really got involved with those Facebook groups, you know? Now, with social media, things happen so much faster. The time frame has gone from a press date to maybe a week or two. You know and things when things happen [01:10:00] to four or five minutes as things explode. And I think that continued presence is really important. So I thank you very much for that. What more can you do, where I'm at with the process now, just to sort of bring you up to date? We have a mediation hearing scheduled for the 12th when hopefully I'll be able to get a few more answers out of the board. I mean, those of you that have seen my Facebook page have been following it. You'll see that even when the Catholic media has asked the school [01:10:30] questions and asked the board questions, they've refused to answer them. So they're basically sticking their head in the sand, and they're not coming back with an answer. And I'd encourage all journalists to go to the school and try and get the other side of the story because I'd love to hear it. I really would. So I would love to have the school. I'm looking forward to the school at that mediation hearing. Um, unfortunately, that mediation hearing is absolutely confidential, so I cannot give any form of release out about that hearing and the results [01:11:00] of those mediation hearings generally are confidential as well. If it goes beyond that stage, then and I will be seeking reinstatement at that hearing, if it goes beyond that stage, it goes to the employment tribunal and then it's not confidential. Then I can actually hopefully get some answers to the questions. But I think the next stage is mediation and then we'll go on from there. But I think keeping up the pressure on the board is really important. Those letters, I mean, the number of parents who've written letters to the board. I've requested [01:11:30] all of that information under the information act so that I can read that and the minutes of the board meeting. But what you've done so far brilliant. Please, just keep it up. Let's keep the pressure on moving just over here to your left, just right behind you, right? Oh, I, I think, uh, popular culture is really more influential, Among other things. Uh, [01:12:00] so just for example, uh, to the teachers, is there any sort of evidence anecdotal evidence of, um, influence of programmes like glee having out characters and other programmes like that two out gay couples? I doubt it, Um And by saying that, uh, you know, there has been societal change over the last X number of years, [01:12:30] but the behaviours are still the behaviours are still the behaviours. And that's what we're talking about here and why. Actually, the need for going back to euro and all of that garbage needs to happen. That is, cultures need to be changed from the top within those organisations Was your question directed in terms of has the attitude of the students [01:13:00] changed or the teachers and the staff students? Absolutely. I mean, one thing I'd say about the students at the school that I was teaching in Pompeo is there was not really that I saw at all. And I believe that was also from Zach Trapp. I don't know if you saw the close up, but Zach was also on there an ex student and yes, you're going to get issues in a school. As with any difference in any teenager, you'll get it. But in general, I think what's happening [01:13:30] with popular culture and the fact that now you see a lot of individuals in popular culture, I think it's much more accepted and certainly the support I've received from all the students in the school has been amazing, and they really do support. I mean, I had a message from a gay student in the school, and what she said to me was, You know, I just feel so supported by everybody here. It's wonderful, except for a certain individual. So it's pretty [01:14:00] cool. I think it is working, but it's not changing the 55 60 year old people at the top who really aren't probably not watching it either. Kevin, um I kind of had a half question half comment about the impact of your struggle, Nigel, Um, and and and thank you for pursuing this and and making a big deal out of it. And not just like taking it lying down in terms of [01:14:30] all these other schools and the principals and the senior staff that have these incredibly backwards views that as a result of your your your willingness to stand up and be seen and be heard and to fight dismissal on the basis of I refuse to accept discrimination. Um, on other schools, like for being, uh will they now do you think, Will there will [01:15:00] there be schools. Now, do you think that will be too afraid to be openly bigoted as a result of your challenge? Um and I know that's a tough question. I. I ask, um I was involved a few years ago in a campaign in Dunedin about schools. They refuse to allow same sex couples to attend their school balls. Um, and yes. Ridiculous. Um, and and openly overt about it. Like, quite absurd. We made a big deal. We picked a couple of schools, Um and we put it through the papers and we put it on [01:15:30] the streets and we put it in, um TV um and we openly shamed them, and the next year we got no complaints. Um and I just wanted to know your your your feelings on that I do think Yeah. Just died I I again, I do think Yeah, it's certainly made a difference. I have a feeling that we've got different schools where we've got different issues. OK, I think [01:16:00] if you're in a large school where you've got a larger community, then probably you've already got more pressure on those senior staff to be more inclusive, I think where you've got a faith based school. I mean, remember I was teaching at a Catholic school you a mountain of Catholic doctrine that is sitting there, But I'm not an Catholic. Surprisingly enough, Even after all this, I'm not anti Catholic. I think that the values, [01:16:30] if they are espoused by Catholic schools, those Marist values one of them is tolerance. Well, come on, guys, show it. And I think they need to be held up to their own value system and made to obey that value system. Don't forget, these Catholic schools are integrated. Schoolss My salary as a teacher was paid by you guys, not by the Catholic Church. OK, yes, I agree to uphold the special character [01:17:00] of that school When I go and work there, that means that I don't openly oppose the Catholic Church's viewpoints. In other words, I would not. As a teacher, I'm sacked. Now I can I would not as a teacher stand up and say I support gay marriage, you know, Come on, let's get it there. Let's get sorted. That would not be appropriate. But there is nothing that I have read in Catholic doctrine that says that gay parents are lesser parents than the other parent. What amused [01:17:30] me was when, um, the one response I did read from the school where it said that, um, you know, the school always welcomes gay parents and gay students. They're like, um, any other student in the school. We welcome them into the school. It's not an exact quote. So please read the exact quote if you want to quote it. But at the same time, we're saying that, um, you know, the principal is saying that in my interpretation that gay parents are lesser parents. Well, that's a bit like me inviting you around for dinner. I sit [01:18:00] down and have dinner with all my friends in the living room, and I kick you out in the kitchen and say, Here's your plate, you know, it's It's not inclusiveness. Has it made a difference? I hope so, because this is 2012. We still need to be fighting these battles. But I thought we eliminated a lot of this 50 years ago, and I'm shocked that we're fighting these battles now. One good thing I would say about New Zealand and I've seen so far, and I thought it was really significant where we met last night [01:18:30] to be meeting in the upper chamber. That doesn't exist. Great. Isn't that fantastic? You know means you guys can change things and you can change them quite quickly. And I take my hat off to everybody who was speaking last night who's sticking their own neck out and that's you, Jan. That's everybody speaking last night to do that and Lisa as well. It's amazing because they are sticking their neck out, and they continue to need your support to do it. So well known guys. Cassie. Remembering, [01:19:00] remembering. Was it going? No. There we go, Um, going back to the big schools which have diversity Already. A hell of a lot of schools are in one school towns in rural New Zealand, which are very unsafe places for many anybody who is different and talking about [01:19:30] the one that I was at. Actually, 90% of the kids were great. It wasn't an issue for 90% of the parents. Having an out gay teacher in the town was not an issue, but the 10% can make it really unhealthy and really threatening, and and it's it's in those sorts of places that I all my, you know, even today, people who are thought to be gay or [01:20:00] known to be gay still get a hard time. I just, you know, not to be too depressing, but also to note that the homophobic bullying that happened at Hutt Valley High, which was absolutely extreme raping of students and homophobic bullying, happened incredibly recently. And the ombudsman's report [01:20:30] of that violence did not even consider homophobia. So actually, that is also part of the picture that we're dealing with, um, un unless you're connected and and listening to the issues or or knowing it, then actually it it doesn't come into people's minds. That's the ombudsman. It was a you know, it was clearly homophobic to anyone. [01:21:00] I might have any understanding. And of course, that wasn't the only case a few years ago, up in the East Coast east coast, and it was exactly the same sort of situation of rape of a student by other students. It can't be anything else but what it was. But I think that that these these conflicts and struggles do have an impact. [01:21:30] And I I'm I'm confident that what Nigel is, uh, is having the that impact of making other schools a bit more careful. Uh, I have no doubt at all that being public and making a fuss has a huge impact, and I think it's that impact that you can see appreciated here. Um, we don't underestimate the the the courage that that takes. [01:22:00] But we also have got to make a fuss and make a struggle. It's not. It's not actually enough to have sensible opinions and to talk to opinion leaders. It's not enough to argue with politicians. It's not enough to change laws. We have got to, in different ways duplicate the kinds of public struggles [01:22:30] that Nigel has now. It won't be the same way because we're not going to lose our job on this one. Probably. But you know, it's a matter of demonstrations. It's a matter of pickets. It's a matter of seeing abuses and standing up against them and making a fuss. It's a matter of making it too embarrassing to so OK, I've got five people on the list at the moment, so I've got 12345 [01:23:00] and we'll probably wrap up questions about not long after half past so I just add one thing to that role before we finish. I think there's two things that need to be done. First of all, I think what the Queer Avengers are doing is vital. And I think in those small rural towns as we were talking the other day on Facebook, I think what's really critical is that you get an organisation if you can't get it into the school. And believe me, Sydney tried with Pompeo and he didn't get a lot of success. It's difficult to get it into the school, get [01:23:30] it into the town around the school so that you can actually do it for two or three schools in that area. That's one thing that needs to be done because those kids need that support. They need to know somebody's there for them. You know, I wish I was back at Pompeo because the kids would know they could come and talk to me. It's not going to happen. I doubt very much, but that's what it needs. It needs somebody they can go to. The second thing we need to do is we need to get people going around the schools and talking about it [01:24:00] going to the staff meetings talking to the staff, explaining that this is a problem getting over that issue, you know? I mean, it was Jan who said it. There's no homosexuality in this school, you know? Come on, guys. Are you serious? In this day and age, are you really going with that belief? People need educating. They need to understand that the staff and the senior management, especially the senior management, need to take that on board. [01:24:30] Yeah, Yeah, in. Um, I just want to thank all the speakers for me here tonight. This has been really amazing, obviously, two points quickly. Um, I really have enjoyed as a youth worker listening to, um the perspective of people. I've been working with teachers and something that we don't hear as much about. So that's really positive. Also, I recognise, as Jen mentioned that the actual name [01:25:00] is an issue. Um, and the very start of the campaign I was a little bit concerned because I wasn't really aware to be able to name the which is, I think sometimes it's easy to just, um, not see the horse and talk about this kind of hard issues. So I'm really happy that we're having this talk here tonight, this song. But, um, my question is really in regard to because, um, we kind of touched on a little bit. Um, these big acts, um, is is what has happened on Nigel here. I do [01:25:30] feel like sometimes it, um it really pushes this prejudice under the carpet more. And I feel like they're overt and implicit homophobia and transphobia. That's one of the more difficult things to deal with. Being really obvious about something. It's easy because it's the the economics really difficult. Um, to deal with you can engage with something that has a that has a face that has an attack in some form. So, um, what I'm really interested in is whether or not any of you have any ideas about how to deal with and listen. Homophobia [01:26:00] that still goes on is still taking place at a very systemic level. And if you're having experiences, sorry, that's a big question. But, um, I thank you. That's, um, a really interesting question. Um, the my response to that would be about education. Really? And that's the kind of, um, it's about education of us. EEE even to the extent of us. You know, looking at our [01:26:30] own, um, our own homophobia and transphobia. But I one of the things that we are doing, um, is developing a diversity training. I mean, a number of people have talked about that. So we're doing that for our own delegates and our union organisers because they don't realise they're that they are being homophobic. And that may be, you know, covert, um, or it's it's underneath. You know, people just is not very clear. So I think [01:27:00] you really have to keep on and and Jan made the point that just don't accept that we've we've got, you know, we just because we got good items signed off that, um you know, we've done everything. We just have to keep on with this education. And that's why I think people like I mean, Bruce Mitchell stuff that she's doing is fantastic. And it really does push the boundaries. Um, I also echoing [01:27:30] that around the education, and it's one of another thing within refuge that part of the training of, um, the people working in refuges around, um, homophobia and and for me, it's also about a human rights analysis. And actually, I think we need to do more work in the country in terms of actually encouraging and giving people the opportunity to think about what are human rights and what does [01:28:00] that mean? Because I believe you know, oppressions are linked. And but people there aren't many spaces in our society for people to get to think about that and think about how their own experience of the world is impacted by the oppression that affects them directly or the oppression of other people and what that means for them. And so I think there's that. But there's, I mean, obviously, activism's [01:28:30] another thing. You know, education is one thing, but we also need structural change and we need to be organising. And that stuff only happens with organising. So yay! Queer event is, um and it really is a structural thing. Um, at the moment we're having treaty settlements happening. Just read the newspaper letters, the absolute vein [01:29:00] of racist, very thinly veiled. You don't have to go very far out of society to find misogynists who are happy to parade their, you know, prejudices all the time. That is, there's a whole heap of groups who are not your white heterosexual male who actually suffer varying forms despite the fact that [01:29:30] discrimination on all sorts of grounds has been outlawed. Um, and when we look at the American election just recently, you know they had voter registration years ago. But look what's happening. I think there's one thing we should expect from schools in terms of what you're saying to make sure that doesn't happen. And that is that school leadership should be standing up and making damn sure it doesn't happen and modelling behaviour that shows that it doesn't happen. We should not [01:30:00] expect that any form of school leadership encourages the other side of that viewpoint. So the role models that our kids see in schools should be role models that are tolerant should be role models that are open to diversity. And I think that's something in terms of teacher education that really needs to be there. We need to stop really thinking of it just in terms of culture. We need to think about it in a much broader scope, but we need to make sure that and [01:30:30] I would call on ER to do this in the Ministry of education. They should be making sure our kids are safe in school. And that means that educational leadership should be modelling that and making sure that their schools are safe. Shelly, um, I'll just have a Well, I guess the base of school Ireland [01:31:00] and a half hour. Um, we have college college in in, um in. And of course, I can tell you that I feel incredibly safe from us completely. Ignoring the high has been the very best form of out of the hospital. And I say [01:31:30] I never felt safe, and that's on someone who's just not being able to take care of yourself. Uh, here, I. I do feel safe and that you remember, um um, the theory of location. [01:32:00] And I think that sort of plays a part of some of the and see it we are finding on that I agree. We take up arms very quickly over issues of safe conscience. And what have you and and, for example, of this was an incident in Auckland where a property owner that defences property attacker has unfortunately killed him as a nation. [01:32:30] We throw our arms and and our business of tagging and we took it. We forced basically the government's hand to produce legislation to ban and have more, um, tagging. We already had a but this was a top issue and so we have the shape of the wall and all. Everybody in the society said [01:33:00] Wonderful. Well done you need and what happened? There's anybody see that it goes on. The same thing is about this legislation we have in the Human Rights Act pass as much legislation as you are. But is errors we were. Our responsibility is a good concept and we can't expect politicians to solve [01:33:30] all our problems. We have grown up people and we have responsibilities to our young people. We are learning people. We have our experiences that Children don't have. They come to us to be able to manage and handle these things. This gets back to the issue of leadership. It's not that have to demonstrate leadership. It was you, me and every other person who's 21 years now who has a responsibility to every other child [01:34:00] to make sure that they stay, that they grow up in a learning comfortable, safe, healthy environment. Word for that they were laying ourselves and our country and our people down, and that's not possible. I would agree with you there, Shelley. I think, really, what's important. You know, you would feel really comfortable with the kids at Bomb Beer, Catholic College. They're lovely kids, the kids that were really supporting this, [01:34:30] and I think that's something we need to understand. In many cases, it's not the kids that are the issue, and it's it's that sort of middle ground of the middle age to a certain extent, and they're the people we need to be addressing. Yes, we do get homophobia with kids and the bullying. But if they're in an atmosphere where that's unacceptable and their peers see that as unacceptable, it isn't going to happen if it's seen as an where it's acceptable. I mean, there was a comment [01:35:00] that I read on the report that was written at the board about me, which was I left it to the school leadership to sort out this problem about the demonstration. You know, the student leadership, so that's effectively saying that the student leadership is going to encourage this to go away and you know, one of the students had a go at the girl that set up the protest. Now it's that sort of modelling that does the damage. What we really need is to be encouraging [01:35:30] those kids and saying, You know what? You are as a teenager as a year 10 as a year 11 student, by doing something like this, you have my respect. You're an admirable individual. You may only be 14, 15, 16. But, hey, you've got a social conscience that belongs to somebody who should be in Parliament. So well done, Thomas. We are asking that maybe if you can speak into the microphone because some [01:36:00] of us can't hear. So, hi, I'm a youth worker as well. Um, and something I've noticed with my young people is that a lot of them are still really, really scared. And so, while that the issue has kind of gotten better, the big problem I see is that even though the issue has gotten better, the majority the majority, which is all good, is silent. And that's the loud minority, which is hating on everyone that they hear. And so I have a youth, you know, [01:36:30] a gay identifying youth and who's really scared to come out even though no reason to be that way. You know he's got such a positive support system, but it's that that really loud minority that really scares him. And he he's worried that it's going to ruin his chances of getting through high school. So it's just being, you know, the loud majority rather than the silent majority supporting real quietly. We've got to, like, actually say Hey, you know, this [01:37:00] is an issue and we've got to talk about it so just kind of that because everyone's said that, Yeah, OK, over here, even speak loud enough as a teacher, I'm quite used to projecting, Um, Hut Valley High School has a, um, has a bit of a history of this because in the nineties they had a number of teachers [01:37:30] who were attacked. I believe by if I my memory serves me correctly by principal. And in fact, the PPT a Nigel ought to have that information, and you ought to be able to look at what actually happened. I worked in a school further up the valley with a Salvation Army principal who had been opposed to homosexual law reform bill, but in fact it was a number of gay staff. We had a number of gay staff, um, at the school and the staff was solidly behind [01:38:00] and demanded that a statement was put out by the school support the teachers who were being penalised at Hutt Valley High School. And I think that's something that probably needs to be able to be done in your case to have other schools. Are principals, the board of trustees of other schools to come out and make a statement and say This is unacceptable and I think it's really important not to put all schools into the same category. There are liberal schools in New Zealand who [01:38:30] are supportive and do provide as not a totally safe but a much, much safer school. And it's not just country schools or schools in small regions that suffer from this. In Wellington, there are a number of schools who have, um probably an anti, uh, prejudice policies anti-bullying. And yet a number of those students find their way to the school I currently teach [01:39:00] at because they are bullied. They don't stay at their school, so it's not good enough PPT a for arrow to tick boxes that there's a policy it's not good enough for, um, for a school to be passed because it's got a policy. It's actually got to look at real practise, and that's much harder to do. It means they've really got to talk to the students and the staff as to what really [01:39:30] goes on, because there often is a mismatch between the leadership and of the school and the teachers and the students. Um, I also want to make a point to Nigel that I don't know what the, um ST A um, the, um, a Board of Trustees Organisation. You've got a staff rep on your board. What have they pulled in called in the ST? A. They should be at looking at that because I think it's important [01:40:00] to challenge that. And I think we need to be aware that charter schools are a partnership. Schools they called are a real threat for New Zealand. It's a policy of this government, and they are schools who don't have to follow the curriculum, don't have to employ qualified teachers, are able to they won't be required to have anti-bullying policies. They're not going to be inspected, I suspect by arrow. So [01:40:30] what's going to happen there. And the thing is that we need to fight the establishment of those schools now before they're in place, rather than try and do a rear guard fight after they're in place. And I don't care if it's a church school or a non churchch charter school that's being set up. They should be stopped. We want quality state education. Not, um, this other nonsense. [01:41:00] I still have a few hands up, but I will have to cut off at 8. 30. So I will try to get through you all. So if you can be quick, um, yeah. Sorry. OK, thank you. Um, I just have a quick statement. Um, I'm an early childhood teacher, [01:41:30] and I often see Children. Um, having some interesting views on sexuality. Um, their view of sexuality is formed quite early, As young as sort of two years old. Um, and I, I believe personally that this is, um, due to media and other things that they see in society. I don't think that, um, the queer community is visible enough to Children, and they don't see other forms of sexuality enough. And so [01:42:00] they form these views of society That are male and female, and then that evolves into homophobia. So I suppose what I'm saying is that, um, high school is a great place to be doing education about sexuality, but also, um, primary and early childhood should probably have that, too, as well as, um I don't know what you would do about the media, but restricting or altering advertisements to not be so heteronormative, um, and damaging to Children's views [01:42:30] of sexuality. I blame Disney. Um, my little sister, uh, seen photos of me and my partner, Um and she said, Why are you kissing the other man? You know, she's so used to princes and princesses. So yeah, I'd like to say, but, uh, we have over here. [01:43:00] Hi. Um, I was trying to think in terms of structural solutions for these things because I mean, what we need is a kind of education about queer sexuality, institutionalising schools and, you know, stuff institutionalising healthcare. I mean, we're not going to get it with this government. You've got the national party who's downright hostile to some queer issues and then the Labour Party, who are you know, they they're OK on some, but largely indifferent on others. [01:43:30] I mean, I've admired the work that parties like the greens have done over the past couple of years. Although I kind of wonder what would happen if the Greens became a dominant party. I suspect there would be kind of a more serious move. Um, so under the system of M MP, I don't really think that getting change is going to work particularly fast. I was kind of wondering what people thought about potential for more further electoral reform so we [01:44:00] can get a more proportional system and enable, you know, queer positive policy. Three girls. I like that idea. Um, actually, I'm just I don't know about that, but I But I don't. I think politicians do what people make them do, so you know, not to fob it off and say, no, we're not responsible because we [01:44:30] we need to be and and I certainly will. You know, do what I can try and do what I can to claim that, but it is. I mean, I think regardless of the system, it comes back to community organising. It comes back to the stuff that you're good at to doing more of it. I that's Yeah, and I'm I'm just gonna pick up the in response to that about charter schools because I think it's actually about noise. And I think [01:45:00] there is an opportunity to make noise that, uh, we have to make and respond on charter schools, which is such a dangerous thing. So there are submissions. And even though the parliamentary process, we feel very disillusioned by at the moment, um, noise is really important and activism, and that does make a difference. So I haven't answered your question, but I did want to pick up the point about the charter schools and responding on that. [01:45:30] And although M MP isn't perfect, I think the visibility of out gay and lesbian MP S the number of women in Parliament now, in terms of society, changing the face of who rules this is changing and to actually get any of them to do anything is what you know. We've got to make them do it. I'd actually say it's moving quite quickly in New Zealand, you know, I. I take [01:46:00] my hat off to New Zealand in terms of what it's achieved. I know it's never going to move fast enough, and it's a shame that we can't make it move quicker, But I do think you've got some incredible progress going on. I think what's really important is to celebrate that progress. Normalise that progress so that the General Population Zealand, which I think is very largely supportive, sees it as progress that's happening and then gets on board and moves with it. If you emphasise, the positive people will follow you. And I think if you can do that in the [01:46:30] communities, you'll go a long way with it. So I think it's going well and I would keep pushing hard. So good luck with it. And final question. Hey, I'll try and make it quick. Um, so we've talked a lot about language tonight and I do research and conversation analysis. So I think language is really important. Um, one, safe space rule is [01:47:00] using gender neutral language. So I was wondering if the PPT A could push for having that kind of rule institutionalised like having a teacher having to use my partner even if they're a straight person. Um, yeah, yeah. I don't think I can speak for the union on this. Um um, because I haven't got that brief. But, um I mean, the issue you're talking [01:47:30] about is one of the quality of initial teacher education. The sort of issue you're talking about is the sort of school leadership that happens and us trying to get into schools to say you need to challenge. That's gay. A number of schools are welcoming, but you know, there is that view of What the hell are you all bleating on about? There's nothing wrong with our place. Um, I'm [01:48:00] not sexist. I'm not racist. I'm not homophobic. I just talk about my wife and kids all the time. Um, but it happens amongst our colleagues. I mean, I remember talking to someone who who was a teaching colleague a while ago about, um, he said, Oh, have you got a partner? And I said, Yeah, Dominique And he said, Dominique and I said, Domino and he said, [01:48:30] Oh, are you gay? You know, assumptions are assumptions, I think certainly from my perspective and the way that I would talk to my students, I think if you show your students respect, you get that back and it's not I mean again. I would say, Don't sweat the small stuff. I understand where you're coming from in terms of language, but I think what's really important is that respect. And if they feel safe in your classroom and they feel [01:49:00] respected, then the language becomes far less of an issue because it's a warm, encompassing feeling, and I think that's what we're trying to generate in classrooms. I think another issue is hard to deal with, and I think it's another one that the government will need to look at and I doubt very much it will be. This government is the whole local boards thing where basically, you've got a board controlling a school and certainly what I saw where you've got [01:49:30] basically a board that has very little power because we've got four proprietors, representatives from the Catholic Church. We've got four parent representatives who don't want to jeopardise their own kids in the school. So whilst I think it's a terrific initiative to have local control, I'm very much for devolved government. It's a great idea. You need to actually put structures in place to make sure that it's got some teeth, because otherwise it just becomes a puppet [01:50:00] that can be moved by the principal or by somebody else. So I think there's a few things to consider. Um, I really like your question. I just going to respond by saying somebody said it that we need to live by assume, assume nothing. Which is the words of Rebecca Swan in that book, um called Assume nothing. And so that's a challenge to us all. But it's a challenge. We can, um, throw out to others, um, to [01:50:30] and live by Assume nothing. OK, thank you. Panel. I guess, um, we'll just maybe give you the opportunity to have any final remarks separate building. I just want to say that I think that society and institutions, they're uneven. There are pockets which are more homophobic and pockets which are less. [01:51:00] But on the whole, our governments, our our, um uh, schools, our culture reflects us, reflects the population. And it's only by changing that that we can change the institutions that ultimately the little fiddling is necessary. But on its [01:51:30] own, it's not the point. It's the question of using the little fiddling as a lever for massive change. The example that I use all the time is that the 85 86 homosexual law reform about the decriminalisation of homosexuality was not really about the decriminalisation of homosexuality at all. It was a a about about a minor little cultural revolution in New Zealand and that the [01:52:00] that little reform was the opportunity for what was important was the screaming rage of thousands of gay men and women in New Zealand and their supporters. That said, Enough, we've got to change things. It was the radical activism which people who weren't very radical or very activist felt necessary to do in all the circumstances. And what we've got to do [01:52:30] is yes, try to influence this board or that board or this decision or that decision, but as much as possible, use those opportunities as levers for a much larger cultural change, which is necessary. I think I'm gonna leave you just with a couple of words, make noise and keep making noise. The squeaky hinge gets the oil. Just get out there and make that noise. [01:53:00] And it's also very evident that there are a number of organisations across the whole of society who are working for the change, even if they're not visible. Did I nice? Um, yeah, for me. That Obviously tonight I've heard you know that change. We've made progress in certain areas and at the base. There's a certain kind [01:53:30] of change happening, but it's not fast enough. There's a lot more to be done, and and thinking it's all done is actually just going to allow what's wrong to feed and grow. So, um, I've been really thankful for this conversation in terms of I guess, sharpening my thinking, um, and focus. And, um, I look forward to hopefully having a chance to be able to respond [01:54:00] to your rage and do what I can in the place where I work. Um, but loving the work that you're all doing to, you know, to push more to happen. And I guess my final remarks on this issue is that I'm very glad that we've actually had this discussion. It's really, um, important. Um, it was actually a touching story that we had at the start of our public meetings. Well, towards the beginning, uh, it [01:54:30] was really sad, moving and touching that really drove home that we really needed to make sure we had this discussion because marriage equality has raised this discussion. There are people out there at home who are reading the forums, the blogs and all of that and who are struggling with the homophobia that this naturally occurs. And we need to make sure we're there for them as well. Uh, you know, these people are behind the screen, They're not here. So we need to make sure that [01:55:00] we when we are blogging, that we're doing it in a responsible way. And we're doing it in a positive way, especially Facebook. Too many of the young people are seeing that and feeling so bashed up about their gender identity that we need to make sure that we are doing what we can do in a positive and accepting way. And that is really why we are having this discussion, every press release we do. We try to have that sort of inclusiveness that if they need help, they can go to these [01:55:30] revenue avenues to make sure that they can get that help. And I guess my thoughts on this issue was, you know, one of the things that I'm most proud of, and when I walk down the street and I'm with my partner, who's over here, he's been such a great support. Um, we walk down the street holding hands, you know, and people come up to us and you're like, you know, thank you. Um, you're so brave. Um, you know, we've never had one negative comment, so making it normal for everybody, [01:56:00] you know, uh, making it so that it's accepting, you know, seeing us, me and my partner on the street holding hands is one thing that is giving other people strengths. And that, for me, has been great as being a leader, you know, in that change, you know, PD a has not done enough. Um, thank you to our hosts. Uh, Saint Andrews on the terrace. Thank you, Margaret, for letting us have this venue. It's a great venue. Um, to have these discussions inside of a church [01:56:30] is something incredible. I would never have thought about 10 years ago. Um, and thankfully, uh, finally thank you for tuning up. You know, otherwise we'd be talking to ourselves, but thank you again to the panellists. A round of applause for you, please.
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