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I think that faith is underlying a lot of the anxieties, Um, that we're addressing around marriage equality. And it's quite easy just to dismiss people of faith and faith views as, um bigoted, ignorant and, um, unhelpful. And indeed, some of them are, um but I think it's also important. And some of the, um, media, the person who was talking about media earlier, talked about the need to understand those who we disagree with. And I think that's [00:00:30] really important for us. Um, as as we look at this, I'd just be quite interested to know a little bit about you. Um, so if I could just, um, if you don't don't participate at all if you don't want to. But if you could just raise your hand If you've ever been part of a faith community, OK? And if you're still a member of your community, all right, this is you're a perfect a perfect sample of the New Zealand public, I think. Um, yeah. So this is, you know, some I'll [00:01:00] assume that people know some stuff, but also, um, that most people aren't aware, um, with what's happening about this issue within faith communities at the moment apart from those that are really visible, um, in the media and also wanted to talk to start by talking about why I'm involved in this and about why Saint Andrews on the terrace is involved because we're very aware that around homosexual law reform, the Human Rights Act changes civil unions, prostitution, law reform as well. [00:01:30] And this now this law that the most vocal opponents, um, are coming from a faith perspective. And so that's the perspective that we need to understand and address. But what I also want to share with you is that while it doesn't get a lot of media coverage, there are huge numbers of people faith who don't have a problem with this legislation. Um, they they're often not the people in positions of power and leadership, and a few of us are able to to speak as leaders. But there are. [00:02:00] You shouldn't assume that, um, that because a person is Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Sikh or whatever, that they are opposed to this legislation. And one of the things that I think in terms of strategy that we have to look at is how can we you know we're talking about in the previous thing about building alliances. Um, with straight and gay students building alliances I like to think about how can we, um, build as a movement as a campaign and strengthen our alliances with [00:02:30] people of faith? Who, um, are going to be helpful for us because it's a bit like the media about the niche media. Um, idea, too. You actually have to address yourself with a particular audience in mind and one of the things that I hope will that will come out of this. Um, is that people of faith? While there will be some really vocal people who will never change their mind, there will be other people who will start to look at their faith in a different way and to learn that there are people of faith. Um, for whom, you know, homophobia [00:03:00] is not the bottom line. I think it's important. Um, a lot of people, you know, say things like, Well, you know, if you believe if you're a Christian, um, when the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, Therefore you have to believe that a lot of, um, secular New Zealanders assume that too. So I think it's quite important that, um, people understand that there are a lot of people of faith in New Zealand and around the world who aren't literalists about the texts. We, um, are people who have a sacred text. But [00:03:30] it's not one book that the Bible for us is A is a library. It's a whole lot of books created over a very long period of time, um, oral stories that are thousands of years old and written down over, um, over a period of over 1000 years. So within those stories within those books in the Bible, there are lots of different stories. There are multiple accounts of human relationships, multiple accounts of understanding, um, [00:04:00] how we are to be in relation with one another, sexually and and otherwise. And I think of the Bible as not so much as a rule book about human sexuality. In fact, it's a very lousy rule book about human sexuality, but it is the story of people of generations of people, of first of all, a tribal people and then, um, a sort of nomadic people and then people who began to settle in cities and developed a whole kingdom people who were sent into exile as a result of losing [00:04:30] a war. And, you know, the the theology changed because they were in a different place. They were no longer in control and, um, making lots of rules about how things should be like you find in Leviticus. But they were out in the in the wilderness in a place where they were no longer in control. And so their theology, their understanding of who they were in relation to God, um, changed enormously. And then you get what was the sources? The struggles that were happening in Judaism around the time of the birth of Jesus And really, you know, Jesus was [00:05:00] Jewish, Um, in case anyone hadn't noticed. And, um, what was going on in Judaism was a huge tumult, um, around the direction that Judaism would go in. And really, um what Jesus lead was a Jewish reform movement. And then the the New Testament developed, um, through a period when people were being persecuted after the fall of the temple in Jerusalem. And so their identity, um, became really oppositional to the Jews, the ones who were called the Jews in the Bible [00:05:30] because they were really, um, the ones who weren't accepting these kind of Christian Jews. So you have to read the Bible, Um, with all understanding that politics and understanding the power, our struggles and understanding the different sorts of literature that it is, some of it's old old stories like Adam and Eve. The story. It's not about how the world began. It's a story of understanding what our relationship is to the sacred, um, and to the earth. And we might have We might tell a different story now, but the story kind of made sense [00:06:00] to them at the time. And it says things like, You know, women shall suffer in childbirth. Well, that was before painkillers. So, um, it wasn't saying that it was necessary for women to suffer in childbirth. It was just explaining what happened. And so those some of those sacred stories are written for that kind of purpose. Some of them are the stories of prophets who thought, you know, the society is really going off the rails. The rich have got all the power. Um, the poor people are being trampled. There is no love shown in the nation. Um, so they were calling the people back to this sort [00:06:30] of being authentic and good people. And then, you know, I think Jesus, um was about also about sort of reforming the tradition and a lot of stuff about critique of legalism, critique of people who are taking the rules that they inherited and using those to oppress people. So he said, things like, You know, human beings. The Sabbath is made for human beings, not human beings for the Sabbath. So we've got stuff in that in those texts that can be incredibly liberating. But sadly, it's often used, um, to better [00:07:00] people over the heads with. So I think it's helpful. Um, and one of the things I'm really interested in is what I call spiritual self defence for people who are not involved in faith communities, to know, to kind of think about what the Bible is, so that if you're engaged in conversations, you can, um, have enough information to kind of point out the complexity of this document. There are contradictions in it. It doesn't mean that it's not a wonderful story, a wonderful resource for understanding human beings. But it's certainly not a rule book for [00:07:30] how we should be today. So moving just more clearly into I mean, I will just briefly deal with the, um, what we call the texts of terror, the the texts that are used to better gay and lesbian people and particularly young people. Um, and really, the important thing to notice about those is that the ones that are in the Hebrew Bible simply don't have authority over Christians. Um, now, So the the Leviticus texts. I don't think that you, you know, [00:08:00] they they're in there with a whole lot of rules about all sorts of things. You probably heard this about not eating shellfish and not planting mixed crops. And, uh and, you know, I, um, have a young woman in my congregation who made this fabulous t-shirt that says God hates shrimp. Um, you know, so you know, there there are all sorts of, um, things that are not relevant to us. But there are some texts in the, um in the New Testament that are much more problematic. But the important thing for us to realise when we look at those texts now is that we interpret them with [00:08:30] a with the scientific knowledge that we have, and all of those texts in the Bible that seem to be condemning same homosexuality are condemning same sex acts between people who are assumed to be heterosexual, not homosexual. Because the Bible within the biblical tradition, there's no understanding of a variety of human sexual orientation. The biblical people, right from the ancients through to the early church, assumed that God created everyone male and female [00:09:00] and straight. So given that we have a whole raft of scientific and social and psychological knowledge about human sexuality, it's incumbent on us to use that. I mean, we have. We have been created with brains, and, um, we we don't leave those aside of where People of faith. So nothing in the Bible is actually speaking to condemn gay people who in gay relationships and I. I think you can say that very clearly because the the [00:09:30] the challenge in the Bible is to for people to go against their nature. That's what was upsetting to the biblical writers. They thought it was wrong to go against your nature. But if you are in fact gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender or intersex, then what is natural for you is going to be different. So I think we need to really claim that and, um, and challenge the biblical literalism. I'll say a little bit about marriage in a in a minute, [00:10:00] but I just wanted to share with you two resources that I think are incredibly helpful and free. Um, on the Internet. One is, um, a little booklet called Homosexuality in the Bible by Walter Wink. And I have this as a PDF that anyone can, um, email me if you would like a copy. But you can also just google it. And it is, um, available on the on the web. [00:10:30] So if you're in a situation where you're going home for the holidays, if you're a student and you know that you're going to, um, encounter those kind of awkward Christmas dinner conversations where somebody's going to find out that you're involved in marriage, equality and your, um, great uncle is going to say something obnoxious, you could just give him a copy of this because it really, um it's it's free, and it's easy, but and you have a read of it first because it does just deal with exactly the same stuff that I'm saying. about what's [00:11:00] what, what the biblical texts are actually addressing and what they're not. And the other one, you can download. It's called, um, what the Bible says and doesn't say about homosexuality. And it's, um, pro produced by a wonderful organisation called Soul Force. And their website is really worth having a look at, um, not what the Bible says. [00:11:30] They do a lot of great work, Um, in in kind of nonviolent action. And the picture on the front, um of this booklet is showing people standing outside a church assembly, holding, um, photographs of gay and lesbian people who have suffered as a result of what the church has done. So they they're very activist in the sort of Martin Luther King, [00:12:00] um, style of nonviolent activism being out there and calling churches that continue to hurt people and to cause damage to account. But they also have another little book, and they cover a lot of the same texts. And just with the same information in terms of marriage itself, um, the what have you can Can you tell me some of the things that you've heard people say about marriage? Have you heard religious claims about marriage. [00:12:30] Right? Let's just write some of this down. Yeah? Yeah. Or a main one. It's interesting, too, isn't it? What's that? Last one? Wife or wives? Right. But you don't tend to hear religious people making that argument, do you? This is our response [00:13:00] to Family Life International and their submission. And this was made by a Catholic couple said that, um, marriage was natural. It was the biological imperative. Um, I have to discuss with them later. You know, same relations and and and with animals. But anyway, so, yeah, they sort of were saying that anything that isn't man and wife is unnatural. By definition, it's unsafe for Children because it doesn't have that natural. Um, [00:13:30] 47. So that it's kind of been unchanged for a long time. Yeah, it seems to be very popular. They quote Matthew 1946 about, um, marriage between one woman and a man. One woman, one man without actually reading the full chapter, which is about divorce. So for the protection of Children, right. And that was made for it. Thank [00:14:00] you very much. Yeah. Yeah, OK, they get I had a point over there. So, um I like the recent one. what is that? The two men two men line next to each other. They shall be stone. And yet we've had the, [00:14:30] um, the US legal reforms where they get legalised marijuana and yeah, yeah, So I thought I thought another. In terms of responding to that, you probably are. You know, you've probably already started to think through this. I mean, it's I, um the local Catholic priest presented just after Saint Andrews on the terrace. Um, did the submission the other [00:15:00] day. And he, um he said, You know, the the procreation argument, which is very common, um, with the Catholic response and the the select committee pushed him a little bit and said, You know, what if somebody, um, was unable to have Children and he said, Well, at least they have the potential to have Children. And one of the, um, people on the committee said, Well, what if someone's had ovarian cancer? If the woman's had ovarian cancer and they know they can't have Children and he said, Well, at least she had the potential to have Children when she was born. Um, you know, so it's it's a It's a pretty, um, [00:15:30] limited argument. And I think they know that, too. I mean, I think it is, um, you know that they're aware of the limits of that. So, um and you know, you you do get the, um well, the concern that, you know, we somehow if we, um, allow same sex marriage, then all these straight people will have same sex marriages, and the the population will decrease. And that, I mean, that kind of goes back to that, um, biblical understanding of, you know, during the earth and go forth and multiply. And [00:16:00] I think, you know, people of faith can think more deeply than that. And we can look at the world that we're in now, Um, which isn't a flat world, um, you know, flat earth with a dome shaped heaven over the top of it. Um, so we make different decisions about what's an ethical imperative for us, but I think if you look at, you know, people do know about the the multiple wives and things. But really, what you see in the biblical accounts of relationships is a tremendous change over time. You know, these [00:16:30] people were nomadic people and then they were settled people. And then, you know, um, then they went through a period of dispossession, and so marriage has changed. And, you know, they changed depending on whether people were poor people, Um, whether they were sort of in danger of losing their livelihood and their land or whether they were wealthy people. And then they then, you know, marriage was often about political alliances. And that kept going through, you know, the 1st, 2000 years of Christian tradition as well that marriage [00:17:00] historically, um, has had a great deal to do with politics with, you know, alliances between families, Um, and and not a lot to do with the things that we think are crucial for marriage. So what you what you see, um, really is that the unions that are described in the Bible are different, depending on different times and places. And they evolve in kind of tandem with other cultural and political shifts that are going on that are described and even I mean a a lot [00:17:30] of the ones that seem really bizarre to us, like polygamy and sort of being forced to marry a woman having to marry her husband's brother if he dies. Those kind of things they do. They are part of the older, um, tribal nomadic traditions. But even in the New Testament, there's real ambivalence about marriage. And marriage is not the, um, you know, husband, wife, and 2.4 kids and a dog. Mean marriage was, um, was often, um, kind of discouraged [00:18:00] in the in in the early New Testament time. And we've been told now that everybody kind of is obliged to to marry and procreate. But Saint Paul said that people should marry rather than burn. And that was, um, burned with passion. Um, so it was a way of sort of controlling human sexuality and also, um, one of the questions that came up. One of the things that we've said in our submission from ST Andrews to the Select Committee is that, um, there's really silence on [00:18:30] same sex marriage and scripture. Um, it's just not addressed, and we can't We can't find any support for it. And we can't find any condemnation of it because it's just simply outside of the, um, prerogative outside of the possibilities, um, for that community to think about and one of the, um, people on the select committee? Asked the Saint Andrews on the terrorist submitter. Um, you know, why would you assume that from silence? There was approval. And I think our perspective [00:19:00] on that is that when there is silence and there's silence on so many important ethical questions, I mean genetic engineering, Um, you know, nuclear war, all sorts of things that were just not part of the world view. Then we have to look for other ways of interpreting Scripture, and I think that's what's not getting through. Because if you look at the the method that Christians need that I believe that Christians need to use, um it's it's to look at the sort of overarching themes of Scripture like love and justice. [00:19:30] And I thought, I really think that justice should be the basis of how we make decisions about whether same sex marriage is to be valued by our society or not. And I don't just mean justice in a kind of, you know, treating people equally, but a sort of visionary justice about the kind of society that we want, where people are welcome and included and able to become, um, who they need who they are called to be. I could tell you quite a lot about the history of marriage, [00:20:00] um, after biblical times. But I, I think the point is just to to be aware of the diversity of the tradition and to be aware that to be a person of faith doesn't mean that people will hold homophobic ideas and that one of the things somebody, um, in a forum that some of us were at a we while ago accused me of hating the church, Um, and I I thought about it. I was kind of gobsmacked at the time. Um, but I thought about it afterwards, and I thought, actually, I love the church [00:20:30] enough to expect it to be the best that it can be to be what it's called to be by its founder, who was, um, Jesus. And for me, that means, you know, helping the church to be loving and just and, you know, focusing on things that really matter. And I. I think there's so much more that's threatening to society than same sex marriage. I think, um, economic injustice is probably the most thing to our society. Lack of a living wage and benefit reforms [00:21:00] that are punitive. I mean, those are things that are a threat to the family. And, um, I'm quite pleased that not only the ST Andrews on the terrace submitting on this piece of legislation, but next week some of us are going to submit on the benefit reform legislation and about the kind of values that underline, um, a piece of legislation that seeks to make some people lesser members of our society. So I love the church, um, enough to really want it to be much better [00:21:30] than it can be. And but I am really aware of the damage that's still done. And I said that in the previous session about people who are continually to actively persecuting gay and lesbian people because of their sexuality. I know that we've still got a lot of work to do. Sometimes I would just I'm just think I should just walk away. It's just, you know, so awful some of the stuff that happens. But then I think actually, the person who I've been talking to who doesn't live in Wellington found me because Saint Andrews is visible about this issue and they knew [00:22:00] that they could talk through issues of faith and sexuality and be supported. So I think that's what we're called to be. So I really want us to have a discussion about some of these things, so I'll stop talking in just a second. But one of the things I just wanted to flag that I'm really interested in, um, trying to find in terms of alliances is I think, that there are. It's very clear that there are huge. There are a significant number of Christians who are supportive of this, um, within our church with the Presbyterian [00:22:30] Church, which is not very liberal at the moment. In this stage of its life. A quarter of the people at at our General Assembly were supportive of marriage equality, and 75% were were not, which seems terrible. But the assembly is a pretty, um, conservative, you know, not fully representative part of our church. And I think it's important that you that people keep realising that, you know, maybe it's a third or a quarter or whatever, depending on which part of the church we're looking at, that there really are people, um, who need encouragement from [00:23:00] us as a campaign to kind of come out as Christians, um, who have an alternative view and that we won't achieve that by, um, belittling their faith. Um, we'll achieve that by sort of helping them be the best, um, people of faith that they can be so II. I want to really encourage a civil conversation around this. I get personally frustrated and pissed off, um, with people who say, say, stupid and homophobic things. But I think it is really important that we engage. Um, you know, with respect [00:23:30] with people who who differ to us and, um and really, um, find a way forward. And so this brings me to the last thing I want to say in terms of campaigning. And, um, thinking through this is I think there's a piece of the alliance that's missing in a in New Zealand that, um, people in the States have done better on, and I read about this, particularly in Maryland in the United States, which is one of the states that recently voted for marriage equality and two of the people who were most significant in their multimillion dollar, [00:24:00] I must say, um, ad campaigns around marriage equality were two Baptist ministers, and they spoke on in the television interviews as people who were who did not believe theologically in same sex marriage. They were, uh, their their personal understanding of what marriage is meant, that it was between a man and a woman. However, they spoke passionately about the rights of people who believed differently than they did, um, to have access to civil marriage. And [00:24:30] that's a voice that I don't think we've heard in the New Zealand conversation yet. So I think we all go to the place to our families and then, you know, around the the country in the, um in the summer and talk to the our relatives who are still religious and find out, um, if there are people who can help us build that alliance, because I think there is a lot of fear and anxiety. It's been it's been cultivated by particular people who want to make people of faith afraid. But I think those voices of people, um who can just help [00:25:00] people understand that you know, we can hold our religious beliefs. Um, I mean, they're different than my religious beliefs, Um, but that they can hold those beliefs, but not seek to impose them on people who hold other religious beliefs or people who hold no religious belief when what we're looking at is a civil marriage issue so that that's what I want to say at the moment, I'd really be happy to hear other people's contributions. Yeah, OK, um uh Kay Jones. I'm [00:25:30] a member of five faith communities. Um, and we're in the and that's partly because with world religions, if you sort of go across, um, sort of all of them there's more in common with issues like compassion, kindness, um, caring for each other. And And I have friends who are a friend who is a Hindu lesbian and another who's an Islamic, a Muslim lesbian. They're in a relationship together. I mean, they obviously have to deal with those sort of issues within their community. So within each faith community, there are going [00:26:00] to be LGBT people and families. Um, I was one of the drafters of the Unitarian Church of Wellington, um, submission in support of the bill which has been presented to the Select Committee that was endorsed by the Auckland Group. Some of the issues that we raised in our submission were respect. New Zealand has a statement of religious diversity that, um supports freedom of religious belief so [00:26:30] that Unitarians, Quakers and a number of other progressive, um, faith communities want to offer same sex marriages as part of their rights. So for any conservative religious group to say no, you can't that actually goes against that whole respect for other religions. Respect for the, um for marriage as a commitment between two people. That's another thing that the Unitarians, um, holds to respect for human rights. That's [00:27:00] what the Unitarians have now for those who don't know if the Unitarians instead of a Trini in church, which is God, Father, you know, and and Jesus that all three of them together the well, you know, sort of God and and Jesus has all been one sort of grouping. Um, Unitarians tend to have a belief, in some cases in up God, respect for Jesus as a as a human who is blessed. But you have atheist Unitarians. You have pagan Unitarians. It's more about discussion [00:27:30] to find the truth. And so another thing that we cited was respect for science and all of the science on things like, um, parenting. Um, sort of bringing up Children internationally. Um, it claimed that gay and lesbian couples are absolutely as good parents as any straight couples. Um, part of our submission included the attachment from the American Psychological Association. Um, 96 pages, um, of the research summarising in saying that [00:28:00] you know, sames couples are just as good at parenting. There was the decision of the third Court District Court of Florida saying they have heard so many, um, bad parent arguments that they're not going to hear anymore. They're just saying as a statement, same sex couples are just as good and they can be better than biological parents if they're looking after the Children. So those are some scientific basis of, um, our submission, which can be made available. But anybody who wants to get a copy just see me afterwards. So I'm just saying this is the Unitarian Church [00:28:30] submission to the committee. The Quakers of um, New Zealand have put in a submission also very brief. One pager basic human rights. They supported the couple who signed that submission. Um, are two women who met within, um, the Quaker Church. Um, and they are now in a civil union with each other, but they in their community would like that to be a marriage. So this is another. There's lots of people of different faiths who all say we want to be able to embrace our [00:29:00] LGBT, um, parishioners and families and offer, um, marriage if those people want it. And I, I think that's, um, it is important to, um, recognise that there are people of faith who feel at the moment that the state is limiting our ability to practise our faith. And we we believe that at Saint Andrews, because we would we have officiated, um, at quite a number of civil unions since the Civil Union war came. And we [00:29:30] we are able to offer marriage and civil unions to the straight couples in our community, but only civil union to gay couples. And so it's actually like the state is kind of limiting our freedom of religion at the moment. So it's not just other religious groups, but at the moment, the state is kind of privileging one particular view, Um, theological view and the state's got no business in doing that. And I was, um, really grateful to the people who submitted. I did, um, a longish submission [00:30:00] for Christians for marriage equality. That sort of dealt with some of the technical and theological, um, arguments. But the people from ST Andrews just came and talked about our community. And, um, one of them was 87 years old, and her son, um, her only son had died of aids. Um, and at a time when he couldn't come out fully to their family and they dealt with, um, this woman's husband, who's since died, dealt with it by saying to the relatives that he had cancer, and [00:30:30] the relatives that knew, um were pretty hostile and referred to him as a pervert. Um, but she also honoured the love that he had received from the gay community from people who, you know, really knew how to love and be friends. But then she talked about coming to Saint Andrews and as a mother. At that stage, she hadn't been able to speak out for her son, um, because of her husband's views. But what she wanted to do now was to speak out in solidarity for gay and lesbian people who did want marriage. [00:31:00] That was a really powerful story. And then the other woman who spoke quite much younger, um, not quite 30. And she and her partner have just had a baby who was being, um, breastfeed in order to be kept quiet. Um, in the in the seats of the select committee And they had, um they had, um, had their relationship blessed at Saint Andrews. They had a civil union, and their baby had been baptised in our congregation just a few weeks earlier. And it was really wonderful because the parents were there [00:31:30] at the bats and making promises, as was the donor dad and his wife and their two Children. Kind of all up, um, at around the font together. You know that that's what we witness to. That's you know, when we do that because of our faith, Um, so for the state to sort of stop us, being able to be fully equal is a real problem for us, and we we really want it changed. So are there other people? I'm sorry. I shouldn't, um every time someone says something, I think if I think of things, so let's Yeah, one of the really interesting [00:32:00] things about just having this whole debate with Bill and all the debate that it sort of is to ask, as a society what we think marriage really means. And I think one of the most fundamental questions is, Is religion a part of that is some religious element. You know, one of the things you need to take off before you can say what you've got is an act. I mean, I personally, I don't think so personally. For me, marriage is a commitment between two people who love each other to support each other for the rest of their lives. And there's no religious element either. Which way about it? Um, and [00:32:30] the question. And I think that is kind of the social view that I I see I may be wrong and people may disagree. But I see is sort of the direction in which New Zealand and similar countries are going, which I think raises another issue, which is, if we have one civil sort of LA definition of marriage. Can other definitions within religious groups that are still practised and protected by the state privately can they continue to exist? You know, if we are the state that says this is what marriage means. Anyone who is in a couple who loves each other can apply for a marriage licence. [00:33:00] That's what we call a marriage, as the state does that indirectly threaten religious groups who do legitimately believe that it's between men and women. And is that a problem? Because I can see where people from religious groups are coming from when they say this bill harms us because it's kind of the state saying This is what we now think a marriage is and people who legitimately don't believe that might get that sort of culturally forced in and sort of How do you respond to that which I can empathise with? I wouldn't, you know, get lose any sleep over that, becoming the position. But at the same time, I understand [00:33:30] I think people are coming from. I think that's one of the hard things, and I think you know it. It's hard to help people because New Zealand is such a secular country. The whole sort of place of religion within our wider society is kind of unclear, and we do need to keep having these conversations. I mean, my response is that it doesn't take away because people and I wish we had. And I know they're talking about, you know, beyond marriage and there. But I really wish we had been colonised by people other than the UK people on this. [00:34:00] Because if we'd had a European system, that's exactly what would happen is that you would go to everybody, has to go to a registry office and, um, get legally married. And then if you want to have either a secular or a spiritual or a religious celebration, you go off and do that afterwards. And if we had that, I think we wouldn't have the kind of anxiety that we have now. So it's a bit maybe we're just kind of beginning to untangle that mess that we've got. You know, as a minister, I'm automatic of the Presbyterian [00:34:30] Church. I'm automatically a marriage celebrant. So I have I'm authorised by the state to do this, and it seems really, really strange. Um, but if I could just jump in there, um, one of the weddings I recently went to was at a Greek Orthodox church and part of the information given to all the people there is you do not have an automatic right to be married within that church, you have to first be a member of that congregation and secondly, be approved to have that that marriage celebrated there. So it's not even within a [00:35:00] straight couple. It's not automatic. You can't just bowl up. And that is a particular, um, a set of rights that do not, in fact, allow either the husband or the bride to speak at the wedding service. All the speaking is done for them, and they have to promise to have Children as soon as possible, and it's like it's very tightly controlled. And that's within the current laws. And it won't change when the bill goes through. With the changing attitudes of of society [00:35:30] to to marriage and I. I know that sometimes, especially with some of the arguments from family. First, it's this weird blend of religious and also secular arguments to do with natural definitions and such. Um, an argument I find useful is to look at the status of, uh, especially the life within a relationship. There was this really weird moment in New Zealand history, Um, in 18 83 where a man tried to sue his wife for stealing from him, and the court found that legally, he couldn't do that because the [00:36:00] wife was his property and someone's property can't steal from herself, which was very, you know, it was 10, 10 years later, you know, when we're enfranchised and it just kind of like for me that that's an illustration of how very different religious influence, I suppose, like theories of marriage but also that became secular have also changed. So perceptions are changing and, you know, I mean, in the seventies, it was still there was still no such thing as rape and marriage, and it was assumed [00:36:30] that if you signed that form, you were giving away your sexual self determination. Two things I'd like to say, really. First of all, I'd like to acknowledge the support I've had from church communities up in, which is a rural town. It's quite a small place, but, um, I can't go down to the market without people coming up and shaking my hand and giving me a hug, you know, from faith communities. So really, I would say Don't put them all in one basket. Every Christian is an individual. They all have different beliefs, and it's quite incredible. [00:37:00] The amount of support that I've seen coming in from that want to talk a little bit about what marriage really means to me. I was married up at ST Matthew's in the city, and Glen Cary is again somebody who's been incredibly supportive and really helpful. I think what you can't do is limit marriage, and I think what's really important about what's happening here is you're opening that marriage up. Marriage is between two people, and it's a commitment they make together. It's not easy. Hey, living in any relationship is not easy. [00:37:30] I know something that was important to me. I am a Christian. Was that when I stood up in front of that congregation and my partner stood up in front of that congregation and we talked to that congregation. We made our promises in front of all our friends and asked for all their help in terms of our marriage and bringing up Children. And I think that's something that is just amazing and something that marriage provides as a commitment to each other. It doesn't always work OK, sometimes it's hard. [00:38:00] I still work at it, every day, and I'm very, very happily married. But I think it's that commitment you make in front of other people. Certainly, for me, that is the element. And in front of your spirituality and your God, whatever that spirituality is, that's really important. Um, James Barron, Wellington Central Baptist Um, yeah, it's an interesting conversation, and it's it's something as a denomination, I think the Baptist Church is playing catch up with, um unfortunately, [00:38:30] we do have, um It's quite an independent nature of a body, and we have a number of pastors who tend to go off half cock. Might be putting it mildly. Um, but the interesting things I've heard coming back to me is is I pass this writing back and saying, Look, you know, we've been reading up on this because this conversation is happening. We're looking at it and particularly looking at things like, um, are we [00:39:00] gonna be forced to marry same sex couples? And they're they're looking at the the, um, legal opinion and the information which is out there, and they're saying, Well, no, we haven't had all that many atheists we've been forced to marry recently. Um, you know, it it's Yeah, it's it's self selecting. Um, and it's not something we have to do. Anyway. The nature of it is much the same as as you mentioned about the the other churches there. Yeah, um, if you're wanting to get married within that denomination, [00:39:30] you're you're a member of that denomination. So, um, the interesting thing is, it's a, uh, a look we're having back at at the conversation. And the more we look at the conversation, it's, um, what? These you know, people are shooting on helicopter. Saying is actually an antithesis of what? Um, the broad church and what the, um the things which we at course subscribe [00:40:00] to like soul liberty are about, um, trying to prescribe that your Christian belief means that a tenant of your Christian belief is that you do not believe in same sex marriage is ridiculous. Um, you know, it's it's going back. Um, not too many years ago. Um, people will be quoting scriptures about, um that women should stay silent in the church. We've managed to get past that, thank goodness. [00:40:30] But, um, it's a conversation that that, um, is going on. And hopefully, um, I know the the fear, I think is, is in 15 years time the the church will be looking back and saying, Oh, we remain silent on this. Um, must means we were tacitly in support. Unfortunately, that's not the way the gay and lesbian community will remember it, because that's not the way it is. Um, but it's it's a it's an ongoing conversation. So, uh, bear with us [00:41:00] and you've got that that parallel to that. You've got legislation say, um, outlawing discrimination on race based, uh, basis both in New Zealand and the US. But just last year, a Baptist pastor refused to marry a mixed race couple, um, in a church in Mississippi. Now that's, you know, something that there was outcry about. But that couple didn't sort of keep challenging it in that church they went to to a different church. Everybody was horrified and and sort [00:41:30] of was was quite, you know, justified. So but that was still something that happened within that legal framework, and it's like you'd think they'd moved on, and actually it was more bizarre than that. They weren't a mixed race couple. They were a black couple. There were two different ones. OK, well, the one I'm thinking about. They refused to marry an African American couple in the white church. And there the things you're talking about, you know how we've changed. I think that's really important to draw people's attention to because despite the Anglicans in [00:42:00] the UK failing to acknowledge women bishops, um, generally, you know women's equality within a lot of Protestant churches is pretty much done and dusted, and nobody is having these conversations. And the Catholics are still needing to start that conversation. And the previous pope said they weren't to talk about it. So But if you look, I mean apartheid in South Africa, there were, you know, that was biblically grounded in the eyes of people who supported that. And, you know, there were people, Christian people who advocated [00:42:30] passionately for the end of slavery like WWW William Wilberforce. But there were equally Christians who who believed that, you know, God made humans some slaves and some not. And so as Christians. We've got a great deal of history to make us extremely humble about the kind of claims that we we want to make. Yeah, uh, John Morgan, past member of the Saint Andrews on the church congregation and future member, too. Now the 10 o'clock on a Sunday morning going to changes in the new flat Suns streams and through the [00:43:00] through the window window in the morning. And I think I'll find getting to Saint Andrews by 10 on a Sunday morning, which has been the only problem. Nothing to do with theology. Getting to Saint Andrews by 10 on the Sunday morning. The problems that presents metabolism were the only reason I haven't been going nothing to do with theology. Whatever, Um, when in the 1986 bill campaign, I went out to the church Saint David's Britannia Street, returning where my parents got married on the 19th of July 1942 together with somebody else, I got an entirely sympathetic reception. Um, [00:43:30] and I think many other people, the large numbers of people who went in peers to, um, to church, to church meetings, uh, to church services, parish meetings. Uh, in the bill campaign, got a pretty polite hearing. I think our opponents, who we should at all times drink with respect because that's basically the Christian religion, Mad as they plainly are, um, uh uh, we must treat our opponents with respect. Uh, I think at all times as crazy as most of them obviously are. [00:44:00] Um, but I think that the average person on the in the pews I think our court has got a lot of respect among a sympathy and respect among discourse in in church gatherings tends to be dominated. One thank goodness by people of our orientation. And two very, very badly by by by the opposition. Uh, but I think the average person on the parish of Pew, I think there's a great deal of sympathy, uh, for our position. And if we try, uh, [00:44:30] relating to the Christian community on the assumption that they're hostile towards our course, that's politically inept, politically inept because it's not the case. OK, OK, well, just another thing. We've talked more about Christian faith communities in this gathering, probably because there's more of us for whom that's the heritage. But the other faith communities in New Zealand and they're increasing in number because we're getting to be more cosmopolitan. [00:45:00] I think even within those there are mixed, um, sort of, you know, gender and sexual orientations within the parishes, but they're not as used to talking about it. That doesn't mean that they're always hostile, but they will probably be far less likely to become come out publicly and sort of say yes. We support the the the bill. Um, the same way. At the last night session, Lewis was saying that within the Pacific community, she gets a lot of individuals coming up to her saying, Yeah, they totally support what [00:45:30] she's doing. But, no, they're not going to go against the community leaders because that would be seen as being disrespectful to the So it's It's a difficult one to sort of. Actually, you know you want you want these people to to speak out, but they they won't always do that. So I mean, the the main thing, I suppose, is sharing, um, support for each other, and and, um, that that discussion, Um and also I suppose those who are sympathetic trying to help break down the fear and ignorance of those who don't know any better. When [00:46:00] can we, um, sing back? She it, um, asked Des and John Joli which of you is the husband and which the wife, Um, it didn't sound like he was actually making nasty points. It sounded like he was just ignorant and didn't know any better. So that those people who know a little bit more being able to share within their communities will be quite a helpful thing. You know that queer people are not. And somebody told me last night that, um, somebody has found a statement from the Sikh community [00:46:30] in Canada that is supportive of marriage equality. So get that kind of information out and support people who want to speak to their own communities because there's no point in me going along as a raving liberal Protestant, Um, Christian. I mean, I I'm not gonna have the entree into that community, but I can support, um, people who are able to go and talk to their to their own communities. I was, I was gonna say, I think I don't think there's a tension at all in theory between religious groups and [00:47:00] gay causes. And I think, um, that provided, um that we keep advancing the gay laws as we've done by sharing stories and things like that. Then religious objections will sort of dissipate along with that, um, and that you know, it's not based really, the objection isn't really based on religious dogma that you often use religious dogma to support what are really the sort of fears that are just granted him or lack of understanding of sexuality. And so you increase that education and understanding and the objections, I [00:47:30] think. And I think that you know, that sort of religious self defence stuff about knowing about biblical stuff. That's one part of it that's useful if you need to have those kind of conversations. But the real the thing that really makes it A as somebody said this morning, as Conrad said, It's the hard stuff. It's it's when you know gay. When conservative Christian families realise that they've got a gay kid, um, that it sometimes is making a difference. Sometimes the reaction is still terrible, and you know the damage that's caused by that is is still really painful and awful. But I think that [00:48:00] gradually, as people have the courage to come out and you know, have a community to surround them, that will make a difference to those communities because at the moment there is so much fear and some, you know, really conservative religious groups, extremely religious conservative religious groups can often live in a very tight little world view where the books they read, the music they listen to the films they watch are all, you know, part of that culture. And so it is really hard to, you know, and they only hear, um, one particular [00:48:30] way of looking at things. So it is, you know, they don't watch regular television. Um, so it is really hard, um, to get, you know, a different perspective into those communities and gay people. Gay kids growing up in those communities need huge amounts of support because often when they come out, they are, you know, losing their family, their church, uh, their friends. And this is what's happened to this woman who I'm talking to Who's 50? Um, her, her church, her employment, Um, her friends. Everything was tied [00:49:00] up in that world, and they they believe it's their job to sort of get her back on the straight and narrow. And, you know, the the methods that they use to do that are just kind of meeting evil in in terms of persecution. And so I do think we need to be really compassionate and to be very visible about offering support to to such people. Um, but, you know, that's it comes out of compassion. You know, that's that's the most important thing about our faith that that many faiths share Anyone else got. [00:49:30] Like, I'm I'm also up for any kind of, um, oppositional, um, view about, you know, um, faith and sexuality, too. I have two. But, um, firstly, I wanted to thank you, um, for your speech, The faith for a few weeks ago. Um, it was really helpful. Um, especially dealing with the conservative father, Um, and sharing that information with him. Um, but I suppose, um, II I really struggle [00:50:00] with the fact that religion, especially the conservative religion, um, it it seems unnatural not to be so accepting. And so, you know, that's so discriminating. I don't understand why they would do such a thing When, um, you know, it's all meant to be about love and respect of each other, and I guess to to, um, to talk with you some respect, Um, is that you know that we're [00:50:30] here and we you know, the whole point of our community. I would like to open the whole point of conferences to be inclusive and welcoming and accepting, regardless of who you are. And I hope that that message gets through to, um, the communities, I think I mean, I. I feel very perplexed about the the unkindness and the judgmentalism and the narrowness, um, of some religious responses and I, I do think actually, you [00:51:00] know, people who study religion and the state that religion is in at the moment. This is my belief and not not not all Christians would hold to this. Um, but I think we're in a period a bit like the Reformation, which is when the, um, Protestant church broke away from the Catholic Church and wanted a kind of renewal That was, um, less institutional and back to kind of recovering some of the messages of the Bible and that, um that also let priests marry and all sorts of huge amounts of huge upheaval that was kind of connected to the politics and the [00:51:30] history as well. And I think we're going through a similarly huge upheaval at the moment in terms of religion, hopefully away from an emphasis on a god that's out there. Um, who kind of needs priests and, you know, mystery people to kind of connect with it to an everywhere God, um, and I think that's what most New Zealanders spirituality is already about. It's sort of seeing that, you know, the god that I see and you and you and you when we connect with one another. And, um, and in the beautiful place [00:52:00] that we are located. So, you know, I think that, um there will be less emphasis on doctrine. Um, as as religion emerges, um, and it's going to be hard for for some religions, probably more hard for, um, those that have got the sacred text, you know, which is sort of they think is telling them what to do. But there really is a kind of renewal movement that is about people getting in touch with spirit and compassion and and sort of working out what's really important. So I think that what you're referring to is kind of residual. Um, of [00:52:30] religion is control, and and it's been it's been part of our experience since, um, since constant. Since the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, um, in 300 something or other, um, up until the Christians had been sort of oppositional to the state people. They were martyred, and they refused to give allegiance to the imperial power. They were a really quite subversive group, Constant. The Emperor Constantine became a Christian, and I think it was very smart on his part because he sort of saw the Christians were a huge, you know, issue. [00:53:00] And so he used, um, He kind of absorbed them, and so so Christianity, instead of becoming a sort of voice from the outside that critiqued the power structure, became incorporated in it. And, you know, I think that we've gone, you know, nearly 2000 years, um, since then and kind of lost the impetus that was kind of radical and inclusive. And, um, and I but I think that people are recovering some of that, and, um, it's quite good. I'm really glad that I'm not the minister of a church with enormous social power, [00:53:30] as ministers would have been, you know, 50 years ago we belong on the margins, and that will hopefully help us I. I see it as being in in part a tension between religion being the church, the institution, the control that marriage was about property. This was sort of how you control people. This is how you regulate things. And religion has been about spirituality and the connection between people individually and this the spirit, the deity. That that whole community compassion, sort of love [00:54:00] thing. So that a church can be in both, um, sort of camps. But some, especially the hierarchical structure ones. And like the Vatican, with its incredible property ownership and the structures that are built up over time, sometimes there's too much emphasis on the institutional focus of of the religion and that people at our level grassroots, I mean, not yourself. You're somewhere in between. Ministry is is sort of, you know, parenting. Um, we see one end of [00:54:30] this tension and not the full ones. So it's It's I mean, I think it's playing out in the Anglican Church in the UK as well that there's the the control and the top down versus what the people at another level are wanting. And, yeah, it is coming to the fore. But are those of us who just want a spiritual space? I mean, I always encourage people if you live in a conservative church, but you still want that, um, connection within your life, There are other places that you can go to, you know, like in Wellington. You can go to Saint Andrews. You can go to by the welcoming parishes. Um, and wherever [00:55:00] people are, there will be a spiritual home for them. That may not be the more institutional controlling one. I wish that it was true for wherever people are. But it isn't true for a lot of New Zealand. Sadly so. But yeah, hopefully along the way. I just comment on, um, what you said before, Um, I grew up in quite a fundamentalist Christian environment. And so, um, from, like, why they, you know, in answer to your first question, um, kind of remember how you phrase it. I [00:55:30] think it's because, like, they see it as this is what God says, Um, and we're right. And, you know, nobody else can be right because we have the truth. We have the sole like, um, we're like the sole owners of the truth or something, and so you're closer to the truth if you're closer to what we think and you're further away, like I grew up with Catholics, are Christians So, um sorry Catholics, Um, and all sorts of other things. So I think that's kind [00:56:00] of what it comes down to is like we're right, You're wrong. Now shut up. Convert. Pretty much. But what I struggle with with religion is a focus on the abstract rather than a focus on the real. You know, I don't see any difference between a man and a woman in terms of their fundamental human nature who they are. I don't see any difference between a gay person and a straight person. And I think that's even, you know, from my own life experience, from talking to people from knowing people. And yet I see religious doctrines and dogma that are being upheld. That is completely fundamental to [00:56:30] that, and I just can't buy into that. But I think you're just your dogma is based on a view of human nature that's just fundamentally wrong. Why would I want to buy into that in any way? And so it's It's hard to form any sort of linked with association with sympathy for viewpoints that all those you know, some in some respects they're right in line with human nature in terms that the church is now speaking very broadly here, but the church's view of poverty and social support is right in line of power because we should act towards one another, but to hold completely [00:57:00] contrary views in other respects it because there are potential alliances. And I think often when I'm working across denominations or with people of other faiths that there are much better connections that we can make around, um, economic, justice, issues and environmental issues and all sorts of things. But this one is still a huge sexuality is still a hugely problematic and gender, too, you know, just that kind of idea of you know, how fixed male and female are. And, you know, um, when we we you know, [00:57:30] we have information to and experience to suggest otherwise and I think what you were saying about it the abstraction, you know that it's kind of like having this idea about how things should be and projecting that onto a world that actually doesn't fit it. Um, and it might have fitted it, you know. But even then, having said that, it might have fitted when you look at the way marriage and families have been organised through the, you know since the period since early Christianity. There's huge diversity in there, too. So women's roles, you know, [00:58:00] um, until the Industrial Revolution, women's roles were very, very active in an economic sense. You know, the the household. Everybody worked. Um, so you know that some of these ideas that we've got is sort of somehow fixed actually kind of reflect, um, a situation from the Maybe that maybe existed for a while in the 19 fifties in some Western countries. But, you know, it's never been a universal, absolute experience. I think something else. It's really important to realise, you know, just from my experience with the Catholic Church, I'm not a Catholic was that [00:58:30] it's also in a state of considerable conflict right now in terms of what people believe, and the way that their doctrine violates the basic tenants of actually being kind to people and being compassionate. So on the one side, you've got a compassionate God who will forgive all. And on the other side, you've got doctrine saying, Thou shalt not Thou shalt thou shalt not, and it's quite hard, I think, for Catholics to reconcile that they are [00:59:00] tied to this doctrine yet that's not really the way they live their lives. And I think they need support and that they need help, because they're really conflicted right now and unfortunately what that tends to do. Is it polarises opinion? That's a good point just picking up on that point. I, uh obviously I know quite a lot about individual MP S and their positions. And and some of the, um some of the MP S are are Catholic, either by practise [00:59:30] or or and and, uh, the when the pope has instructed the Catholic politicians specifically to oppose marriage, equality measures anywhere in the world. But I think that that fundamental conflict that that you're talking about between what they what they in in their in their human nature, must consider to to be their responsibility as human beings. [01:00:00] And that edict, I think is, is causing some really interesting dynamics. So I think of one person in particular. And there are There are several ps who are doing this who have invented an entirely spurious reason for not voting for marriage equality rather than having to defend the Catholic Church's position. Um or rather at least the Catholic [01:00:30] churches edict to them. Um, very interesting reason that it's my constituents don't agree with that. Oh, no, no, that that would have some Some superficial, you know, sense to tell you. The one that I think of is, um, someone who is arguing that actually, the problem is adoption. There's no problem at all with the with the with the relationships themselves. But that, uh, it is already [01:01:00] difficult for single people to adopt. They are effectively at the end of the queue when it comes to adoption. And if this bill goes through, there will be another category of couples. Um, who he considers will be a head of single people when it comes to adopting. So it'll be harder for single people to adopt and therefore he should oppose this bill. It's impossible to imagine that [01:01:30] anyone actually would hold that position as a serious rationalisation. Meanwhile, we suspect that the Catholic Church isn't particularly hot on single people adopting Children either. Yeah, and people in general, I had a weird conversation. I had a really weird conversation with Paul Henry on the same sort of topic, and he said basically, his argument boiled down to the fact that there are too many loving couples in the world [01:02:00] and not enough Children to go around, which I just really struggled to to grapple with. It's like, Why are we increasing competition for Children? Well, surely that's a great thing. Surely a wider body of you know great parents is is better. But and the reality is that you know most of the gay people that want to adopt Um, it's about, you know, adopting a child, Um, that's come from another relationship or, um, through assisted reproductive means. And to have that child, you know, fully recognised, as you know, legally having two parents, I mean, [01:02:30] and that's one of the things that it seems odd that, you hear is if there's suddenly going to be this whole, you know, massive adoption, you know, stranger adoption thing, which isn't really an issue at all in New Zealand because there's hardly any Children who are adopted, but and all sorts of other complex family relationships do need legal recognition and protection, which they said, you know, currently don't get opposition to gay. Adoption is such a fast, though, because you never hear the people that say gay couples shouldn't adopt, say gay individuals who can adopt should no longer be able to. [01:03:00] And yet when they form a union, they somehow becomes. I think a lot of people don't understand that gay individuals can adopt the other thing. That was like, you know, when I was speaking to the board about this was you know, a lot of gay parents actually started out as heterosexual parents, and they just don't seem to get that, you know? And they haven't changed. They're the same people. But suddenly they're not the same. Yeah, I mean, that's my situation. I was married and had a child, [01:03:30] and now you know, my young adult son is, you know, he spent from age nine to how old he is now in his twenties, being looked after by me and my female partner. But he still has a great relationship with his dad and his dad's de facto female partner. Um, he's, you know, he's loved by by four people. Um, so I think Yeah, exactly. Yeah, And I ask about that. Too many parents. Um, but, you know, it's just that's the kind [01:04:00] of reality that sort of that is what gay parenting is is about. There's all sorts of, you know, ways this happens, but we are We already exist as families, and there are Children who need to have this kind of social and cultural recognition that I think marriage can be. And still, you know, even I mean sometimes. So I find myself amazed as a seventies feminist that I am, you know, standing up here in the two thousands and tens defending marriage, which I, you know, completely critiqued, um, as a younger woman. Um, what I'm advocating is people's right to choose [01:04:30] marriage. Um, but I think, you know, for for so many people that the things that I was concerned about in the seventies that you know, things like the rape within marriage, um, was not, you know, recognised, um, that it was hard for a woman to get a chequebook. Um, you know, the bank wouldn't let you sign, um, for a mortgage, all those kind of things that just seem so I think you know, for most of you who are younger, just kind of you can't believe that, um, that sort of stuff was going on, you know, a couple of decades before you were born. So I think the you know, the good thing about all of this is that marriage [01:05:00] is changing in a really good way. And I, you know, as somebody who kind of was enthusiastic about civil unions because they weren't marriage, I'm now seeing that I. I now understand that, you know, marriage is continually evolving civilly and religiously, and that what it stands for for a lot of people today is it's really good stuff, um, about commitment. And I think about this the thing you were talking about, Nigel, about that public commitment. And so many people have told me, you know, either through marriage or civil union that standing up there and making [01:05:30] a vow to their partner in the presence of those who they love, um, it does make a difference to them, You know it, shouldn't it? You know, it's been an important moment in their lives. Um, and it and it's held them, um, through some tough times And it you know, as you say, it doesn't work like that for everybody. Um, and not every marriage is or civil union is going to endure. But there is something I think There's kind of been a human wisdom that marriage is sort of born through all of the centuries of inequality [01:06:00] and politics and economics, which has been that, you know, we're not alone. We're not meant to live alone. And even as couples, we can't be alone. We're part of a network and society, um, and that we need to be, you know, part of a community. We are relational people. And so my relationship with my partner is sustained by our love for each other, but also by the community. Um, that we're part of by our family and our friends and in our case, by our church. And so I think that wisdom has endured, um, so that marriage [01:06:30] is actually becoming something quite a lot more wonderful than it was 20 or 30 years ago. And I you know, I think that's, um, a really rather brilliant thing. And I think I, um I was gonna tell you about one other great resource. If you want to read some more about This is my friend Marvin Ellison, who's a theological teacher in Maine. In the US has written same sex marriage, a Christian ethical analysis and one of the things I love about his analysis is that he thinks that straight people have been queering marriage for the last [01:07:00] 30 years or so. He's saying that marriage, it's straight People who have changed the nature of marriage by, um, by divorce and by, um not having it so connected with Children but also by sort of claiming that it is about love and commitment and less about tradition and sort of con conformity. So it's not queer people that have done this to marriage. All these things that cause people to be anxious about marriage. It's, you know, straight people who have evolving marriage. And I think they've got done such a reasonable job that we queer people are now considering that actually, this could [01:07:30] be worthwhile. So on that note, just before we close Margaret, I want to, um, expressed by a huge gratitude. And thanks to the role that you have performed and and not only in this debate, but actually over a number of issues and a number of number of years, Really? Um, because, uh, we would not be in the position that we are now, uh, of having the [01:08:00] sense of inevitability about succeeding with this campaign if it hadn't been for your work. And I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. I I'm part of a bigger community, but thank you very much.
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