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Um, Margaret Maman is the lesbian minister at Saint Andrews on the terrace, which is a Presbyterian Presbyterian, Um, Christian church. That's not often two things that people kind of think about to mix Gay and Christian and gay Presbyterian. Um, no. But there are a significant number of gay people who are part of Christian communities, and there is quite a number of gay church leaders too worldwide. [00:00:30] So we're, um we're the sort of obviously out welcoming congregation in Wellington. And how does, Um, do you? Are you part of like a bigger group of Presbyterians? And well, there's a Presbyterian church of in New Zealand as the national denomination, and it's varied theologically, and it's varied in terms of its inclusiveness or lack thereof. But there is sort of a network of Progressive Presbyterian churches who, um, because our churches stand on [00:01:00] gay and there's been leadership is not particularly inclusive. But there are a number of us who are continuing to practise being practising, being welcoming and inclusive and hospitable, and and it's just no big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And have you always been Have you always been Presbyterian, or have you always been Christian? as well as lesbian or how How Presbyterian Longer than I'd be lesbian. I think, Um, I grew up in Timaru in the South Island, and, um, my family went to the local Presbyterian church [00:01:30] and my, um, on my mother's side of the family, they are Scottish heritage. And so a lot of the people Scottish settlers were Presbyterian, and they came to New Zealand in the 19th century, so yeah, so that's kind of in my bones and blood. And, um and I came out, um, much, much later in my thirties, so Yeah, And when you came out in your thirties, were you really kind of really involved in the church or you were just going or No. I was a minister in a congregation in Christchurch at the time, so and [00:02:00] it was a congregation that I was attracted to because it had made a commitment to being open and inclusive. Um, before I arrived, And, um, before I knew that I was going to need them to be there, Um And for them, it was actually it was quite an interesting process because it was a bit harder for them than I think they thought it might have been, um, but saying that you are happy to have a gay clergy person and actually kind of living with that is two different things, but a lot of them did their very best. So what have been some of the [00:02:30] more varied responses of of people? There are a lot of, um, within the wider Christian community. There are genuinely hostile And, um, you know, threatening almost, um, respon responses. But I don't live with that most, you know, day to day Saint and I came to Saint Andrews as an out lesbian, and that community is very welcoming. And the thing that I like about being able to be visibly out in in a church leadership role is that Saint Andrews is a place [00:03:00] where people know that they can come if they you know, because gay people turn up in all sorts of Christian communities, um and often quite conservative ones. And people realise they're gay, and then they they've got no one in their own community that they can talk to. So it's good to sort of be there at Saint Andrews on the terrace and just be a place where people can come and talk about faith and spirituality and sexuality. Um, and that's I see that as one part of, you know, what we do is being able to provide people with resources about biblical interpretations [00:03:30] and things that really, you know, can be quite distressing for people. So what are some of the biblical interpretations? Well, in the Old Testament, people quote, um, the texts of terror from Leviticus, uh, which say, you know, a man shall not lie with a man as with a woman, um, is one that's frequently quoted but the interesting thing when you look back at that society, they had no concept of, um of [00:04:00] a variety of sexual orientation. They assumed that God had created, you know, male and female and only the heterosexual versions of those. So they saw homosexual activity as being against nature and therefore being against God. They were also in a situation where they were constantly imperilled as a people, and so reproduction was very important. So the teachings against homosexual acts, and are are there along with teachings against masturbation [00:04:30] and any kind of sexual activity that wasn't going to be procreative. So now that we know, we know a lot more about science and and reproduction is actually not an imperative in the 21st century, there are plenty of us. Um, heterosexuals are not dying out, it appears. Um, then it's, you know, we we can look at this in a different way. I mean, they thought the earth was flat, too. I mean, and they were, you know, they were amazing people for their time, and they, you know, they really, um, did try and understand what it meant to live in community [00:05:00] and to, um to have a sense of the sacred and to tell their stories. But, you know, we we don't follow every word that they said. And then in the New Testament, there are, um not Jesus said nothing, um, about sexuality. It does appear that he crossed all kinds of gender and social boundaries and was a sort of disruptor of the status quo in lots of ways. Saint Paul, um, is much more problematic. But if you look carefully at the texts that are quoted, [00:05:30] um, from the the line letters, they're mostly, um, addressing temple prostitution. And, um, they seem to really be the attacks are are really ways of against homosexual activity. And he also didn't know about homosexual orientation. Um, they're mostly about differentiating the Christian community from the pagan community around about so he he had all sorts of rules and regulations. Um, that was sort of about keeping the community together. [00:06:00] So my my view with all of this is that the context in which those traditions and doctrines and teachings happen has to be taken into account, and we have to engage them, you know, as 21st century people knowing quite different things. So what is it about, I guess, certain people sometimes not even Christians, funnily enough, who will pull certain certain bits out? Um, I guess not. Pull out other bits like, um, you know, not eating shellfish or campaigning against [00:06:30] men who aren't circumcised. Yeah, it's just absolutely selective. And I guess that just goes to, you know, the homophobia that still exists. And people use whatever, you know, resources they can find to to back up their homophobia. But that's what it is. It is their homophobia. Uh, and the the thing that distresses me about biblical interpretation is that the people who quote the stuff about sexuality ignore all the teachings about economic justice. And if you cut all the verses out of the Bible that have [00:07:00] to do with homosexuality, you'd have six or eight little holes in the Bible. If you cut everything out about economic justice, the Bible would fall apart. Um, it's, you know, it's far more. About what? About what the Jewish and the Christian traditions were on about. Selective, selective reading? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I You know, I think being part of a faith community is not for everybody. And there are some people who you know, go through their lives, and you know, it's not an important thing for them. But for those people who do want [00:07:30] to belong to a faith community, I think they have the right to if they're gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender or polyamorous is the latest, Um, people who come to Saint Andrews are, so you know, it's all a learning curve. Did you ever struggle with either your faith or coming out? Um, did they ever seem to be in opposition? No. And I think that's because I grew up in a fairly liberal tradition, and I was theologically educated before I came out. So I had a way of interpreting the Bible that [00:08:00] took context seriously. And I knew a lot of gay people. You know, Um, I studied in, um, Union Theological Seminary in New York. And, um, one of the things I really enjoyed about it when I went from Dunedin, which is where I done my first theological degree to New York, was that they had a gay and lesbian caucus at the theological school. So there were people articulating what it was to be gay and Christian who've been part of my life for quite a long time. I also liked that that seminary had a pub and a childcare centre. [00:08:30] So how long were you? So you went over over to New York to study, and I was there for 12 years. It was one of those long, very long study, two PhD programmes they do in the States, so yeah, um, but I was lucky. I had the kind of visa that let me work. So I was able to do some teaching and some other interesting work. And I had a child when I was there, too. So it was a It was definitely the slow track on the PhD, though. And when you came back to you knew that you wanted to keep on ministering [00:09:00] being in ministry. Yes. Yes, I did. And, um, I really hadn't had much experience in parish ministry before I went. But I, I thought the things that I believed about my faith were about, um, the spirit nourishing us to make the world a better place for everyone. And I think you need to do that in a community. And I thought that a faith community would be a good place to do that work and I. I still think that it's a really privileged, um, job to have, because it's every day is different. And I'm, you know, here in at Saint Andrews, [00:09:30] I'm freed by the congregation to do work. Um, to do that, you know, talking to gay and lesbian people. But I also, um, am involved with, at the moment with, um, refugee resettlement issues. And so, you know, it's, um but I work creating worship, which is kind of like an art form with poetry. Really? Um, so yeah, it's It's a It's a wonderful mix of things to do. And what about within, I guess, wider, diverse queer communities or other GL BT I folk. Um, [00:10:00] is there a a confusion that you're a Christian and you're a minister? Or is it any kind of discrimination or prejudice or wonderment? I think there is a bit of wonderment. Um, but I haven't really encountered a great deal of hostility. There's a I, I think, probably for women. I mean, I went through, you know, in the seventies and eighties, training for ministry late seventies. I should say, um, that there were a lot of feminists who wondered why women would want to [00:10:30] stay in, you know, a patriarchal, uh, religion. And so I kind of done a lot of work with feminist communities talking about basically, it's our right to to the heritage that has been the heritage of our mothers and grandmothers. And and there have always been women in Christian communities. Um, often the history is lost, the names are lost. But some of the scholars have discovered wonderful things about women's involvement in early church communities, So it's kind of like we have a right to be here. Um, and I, I try and explain that same thing [00:11:00] to to gay and lesbian people who wonder. But I have I have had crises of, um, about whether it it's possible to remain within the Presbyterian Church of A in New Zealand when it's enacted. Legislation which is discriminated against gay and Les being people in leadership. And I have really struggled with it, um, over the years. But once again, I haven't, you know, I have a com it. I feel like it's not just me. It's the community of Saint Andrews and they they want the church to keep being presented with another. You know, another [00:11:30] vision, another way of being the church, and we can do that. And if we walked away, we wouldn't be able to. So is there quite a lot of difference between the different denominations? And and, um, the Methodist Church has a good policy, Um, that so it's, um, inclusive in terms of its leadership. But it's my experience of my gay and lesbian friends in the Methodist Church that that doesn't stop the prejudice at local levels. And so they actually find it quite hard to get, um, clergy positions [00:12:00] within congregations in the Anglican Church in New Zealand. It varies on diocese and those sort of regional group, depending on whether your bishop is going to be helpful or not. Um, the Catholic Church, you know, I know the gay priests in the Catholic Church, but, uh, they, you know, clearly from a hierarchical point of view, there are no gay priests in the Catholic Church. But there are some wonderful, you know, um, people, you know, working in the in the Catholic system, And they I think they've kind of reconciled the what they can do with the community that they're part [00:12:30] of. And they have quite a different feeling about that than they do about the hierarchy in New Zealand and in Rome. So, yes, so it does vary And the, you know, the difference between what the official statements are and what the practise is is pretty significant. Um, once I heard you talk about spiritual violence. Yeah, and and I guess it really kind of resonated with me and being raised in a Christian family and kind of hearing. Can you talk a little bit [00:13:00] about Well, I think that the teachings that condemn gay and lesbian people and tell you that you can't be a person of faith, and gay and lesbian do actually do violence to our spirits. So, uh, and I think that's one of the most shocking things that the church continues to do. And it it distresses me that people in evangelical church communities [00:13:30] that teach homophobia don't understand the impact of what they're doing. They don't understand that young people growing up on their communities may actually harm themselves or take their own lives as a result of what they hear about themselves. So yeah, it is. It's it's dangerous, um, stuff. And and I think it's really important that people of faith confront those churches that are doing that. Do you know whether gay or lesbian or trans or intersex [00:14:00] the the the the the um, ministers or pastors or in Well, my my my own partner is, um, works as um, a a chaplain in elderly care. Um, I have another gay, um friend in Wellington who's a hospital chaplain. Um, and there's there's a gay clergy, um, men in Auckland in the parish. So Yeah, there, Um, and there are others who have been in parish ministry but [00:14:30] are now in other sort of more outside and that quite a number of gay people are involved in forms of chaplaincy. Um, because there aren't many congregations like Saint Andrews that are sort of so utterly welcoming. Has Saint Andrew's always been welcoming? Has there been big struggles, or has it always been? Really? I think it's been progressive for a long time, like over 25 years. I think it was in the eighties and it, but it's had a history of, uh, social justice work that [00:15:00] goes back beyond that, Um, the minister, too, before me was very involved in the, um, anti Springbok tour movement. And so they, as a congregation have been used to thinking about the political implications of their faith and even way, way back when it was probably more of a traditional parish church. Um, and one of the ministers was involved in supporting the strikers in the waterfront strike and the 1950 when that was 1950 something. Um, so, yeah, so they've, you know, they had that kind of that [00:15:30] background of of being engaged in an ordinary life, Um, which is just it's a wonderful legacy that that we continue to to grow and to develop. So it's not just, um, queer people that make up the congregation. No. Absolute no, it's a real mix, Um, and that's a That's a nice thing that it's sort of There are enough queer people that there's kind of recognition and and feeling like there's, you know, safety in numbers. But there's also, um, just a feeling like, [00:16:00] you know, I think some people won't know who's gay and who's not. And and unless you know, they get to know a particular person better, obviously, then they'll know because there's no need to hide either. But it it isn't, um most of the time it's not an issue. And there, you know, there are. There are kids from babies to, um, you know, through school age. And they're I think our oldest active member is currently just about to turn 92. So, um, yeah, so it's, you know, it's great to have that diversity of gender and age [00:16:30] and some diversity of social class. Not very diverse, racially, Um, but yeah, it's, as you know, having visited. And so with the Saint Andrews, um, is it church service? I guess. Is it quite a traditional church service or are they all just really varied across the board? I think in some ways the structure of our service is quite traditional. So we follow a traditional liturgy, um, that you would recognise in lots of Christian churches around the world. [00:17:00] But the content of what we do, the words that we use and we don't have a prayer book. So we we either write or find, um, liturgies that work for whatever theme or biblical passage or whatever, you know, event that we're kind of reflecting on. And I think it's that freedom within in the service that that expresses our are very contemporary understandings of faith. And we are blessed in New Zealand to have some wonderful writers of contemporary hymns. So we sometimes sing a hymn from the tradition. [00:17:30] Um, and even then I change the words if they're too awful. But I like the tune. Um, but But we also have a lot of new things that we can choose that really. I think people singing, um, is not something that people do much, you know, in an ordinary society. But it is It is a way of, um, kind of. It's almost like sharing your face with other people. When you sort of you sing what you believe and and then the music has a kind of energised when it goes well, um, and energising uplifting aspect [00:18:00] to it as well. Yeah, singing was definitely something I missed. When when I stopped going to church after leaving home, you know, rugby matches when the Welsh are here, sort of when New Zealand is in public now. Quite karaoke. Yes, yes. When you drunk or whatever. Um, so apart from the Sunday morning church service, um, what else does Saint Andrew's host or do? Well, there are two main other things that happen during the week. Um, every week we have [00:18:30] a free lunchtime concert, and they're often more in the sort of classical vein. But they, um, but also jazz and and singing and various other things. Uh, and that's part of recognising that all around us there are lots of people working in the central city, and so we provide a kind of little island of tranquilly, um, on Wednesdays at lunchtime. Sometimes the music last week was serious. Obviously, um, avant garde and bizarre. Um, [00:19:00] and other times it's you know, really, you know, traditional classical music, sometimes really funky jazz stuff. So it's, um, people could just come along and they can eat their lunch in church and come and go as they need to go. So that's a a good thing. And then not every week. But quite often we'll have, um, lecture series or visiting speakers who reflect on issues related to church and society. And sometimes they're quite theologically oriented and sometimes more just on broader social issues. And then we're lucky enough to be able to have the church [00:19:30] open, Um, six days a week. So where we are located is a sort of busy part of town. But the structure of the church means it's quite a quiet place inside, and it's surprisingly light and peaceful, Um, in the middle of a busy area. So people do just come and sit. Um and, you know, pray reflect whatever it is that they're doing. And we we've sort of tried to say that this it's not just for Christians. It's for anybody who just wants a place to sit and be still in the middle [00:20:00] of everything that's going on. And I noticed, you know, with the the beginning of the economic downturn. And a lot of, um, public servants were losing jobs and teams are being restructured. There were more people who just sort of obviously coming just for a quiet place to kind of think. And if people wanted to talk to somebody, there's some often someone around. But usually it's just, you know, being centred and just having a little time out. So it's good to be able to offer that because it's a and a very expensive [00:20:30] building to maintain our historic church. And it's it would be tragic if it was only used an hour or two a week. So it's, uh, being hospitable about that is good and and we're looking more at developing. Um uh, the art side of things. More music. Um, but we've got an arts festival coming up in Wellington and we've got a special series. Um, that will be running through that, and we're looking more at visual arts, too. We've had a couple of art exhibitions because it's lovely, you know, light space [00:21:00] and and being a Protestant church, there's not a lot of ornamentation, so it's kind of like a bit of a blank canvas. Um, so we're looking to talk to artists and sort of to be a place where people can exhibit. Um And I think that will also be another reason that people will have to cross the threshold and just enjoy the space. And yeah, and sometimes we have, you know, other people can use the church, too. We're not, um, and some churches, you know, you can only use it for [00:21:30] worship, but whereas we concerts, lectures, public meetings, I mean, I remember when there was a lot of focus on whether our cricketers should go to Zimbabwe. We had some public meetings around that and, you know, it issues around the civil Union time when that legislation was being looked at, we were a place where people could meet and talk about those kind of things. So it's good to be able to do all of that. Yeah, it's definitely very inclusive. I remember, um, having a few youth group Queer Youth [00:22:00] Group, um, sleep over Andrews in the hall. And so that's Yeah, that's been really, really beautiful. And the hall is being renovated at the moment. So the next time they sleep over the bathroom facilities will be slightly better, which is good in the kitchen. It's important for youth. What are some of your hopes? Um, not only for for for Christian communities, um, as well as kind of diverse queer communities. What would your hopes be to move towards, [00:22:30] I think just being, you know, providing places where people can talk to each other and talk about things that are important. I think more are more and more interested in being a place. You know, how we can be a place for dialogue about issues that divide us or that are difficult. Um, and and I would you know, some of those will be issues that particularly affect gay and lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. But others are just issues that are facing us as people on the planet [00:23:00] when we're, you know, facing climate change. And, um, you know, quite worrying developments in terms of, you know, economic power alliances. And, uh and I, you know, looking at issues about what what government can provide for people and what it will and won't in the future. And sort of how communities can look after each other if things do get more difficult in those areas. So all of those things are, um, important. And I think, you know, as far as queer people are concerned, [00:23:30] we sometimes we can kind of rest easy in Wellington because we can be ourselves. We can, you know, go out with our partners and our friends and, um, just, you know, not have to worry. But I was recently at a family funeral in Gore, and there was an article in which is in the in the deep south of New Zealand for those who don't know, um, and that we, the Presbyterians are are very strong. And there was a really sad article in the, um, giveaway, you know, weekly paper, um, about a Gore's [00:24:00] first civil union and that the paper had been going to cover this couple's, uh, civil union and, um in an affirming and celebratory kind of way. But the couple's family, um, had talked them out of it, saying that it would actually be dangerous, and it would be stupid for them to be out and visible. And I thought, you know, we we often forget in Wellington that, um that New Zealand is a provincial New Zealand is really still a very hard place to be gay and people you know, interviewed for the article said, you know, there was, You [00:24:30] know, there were a couple of lesbians in Gore, but they kept to themselves, and you sort of think, Oh, chances are that, uh, there are, you know, many more than that, but yeah. So I think that's probably something that those of us who are interested in the well-being of gay and lesbian people need to keep paying attention to And and, you know, not just kind of rock on in Auckland and Wellington and enjoy our lives. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing with us. And, yeah, all your thoughts on on spirituality [00:25:00] and and vigilance and continuing to To keep thinking, I guess, and being aware. Thanks. Hannah. Yes.
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