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So here we have Marie Bruce Mitchell. Um, Marie Bruce Mitchell is the first out intersex person in a in New Zealand. Um, and that happened in 1996. How did all that come about, man? Hey, I'm and to everybody. How did that come about? Well, it was a long journey. Um, I was in my mid forties when that happened. And so, yeah, to to talk about the coming out. Really? We have to go back to the beginning. [00:00:30] So born in 1953 um, in Auckland. Actually, even though my parents owned a very remote farm in the middle of the king country, my mom had lost three Children with miscarriages, so she was under the care of a specialist. And this story is now somewhat famous because I've talked about it a number of times, but the only my mom and I only talked about the [00:01:00] circumstances of my birth and my reality once. And I was in my early twenties, asked her what had happened because I had these vague kind of woolly memories that didn't really make sense. And she said, Sure, we were in Auckland staying at Peg and Bob's. She said. My waters broke early in the morning and she's talking in a sort of conversational way like we are now, she said. Dad got up. They drove from into Auckland to the hospital, [00:01:30] met by the matron, apparently a very fierce woman who told mum that she couldn't have her baby yet because there were no doctors in the maternity hospital. So mum and Dad would have been separated. Mom sent down to the birthing unit with a young nurse, and I believe I was born some 20 minutes later and again. Mom's just talking like this conversation and she [00:02:00] said The nurse went down to pick you up. And as my mom's talking, her voice changes and she sort of screams out. The nurse said, Oh my God, it's a hermaphrodite and my mom runs out of the room, so I'm left with, you know, this information, the word hermaphrodite, which at that point in time, this is my early twenties. I didn't understand what it meant, Not really. I certainly didn't relate it to myself. I'm seeing [00:02:30] my mom incredibly upset, and this is a woman of her generation who didn't show emotions, you know? So I'm trying to put all this together. And she was gone for about 10 minutes, and when she came back, she'd been crying. Her eyes were all red. She looked out of the window and it was a very beautiful blue sky. Summer's day of the kind We haven't had much in Wellington this summer. Um, she looks out [00:03:00] and she goes, You know, dear, I think it's going to rain. We better go and get the washing in. So we both went down the steps out to the back of the house, got the washing, and neither she nor I ever talked about it again. Wow. So how did you start coming? Like, where did that conversation even come from? Because you were saying you came out in your forties, but had you kind of you, you'd known before You've been thinking about before. You've been confused before. It was a completely random conversation [00:03:30] or I I recognise. Now, as a child, I tried to make sense of what had happened. Um, I don't have any sense of there ever being a question around what people today would call gender and gender identity. Although I know that how I behaved as a kid from time to time got me into trouble. So I was a tough tomboy [00:04:00] at times because I also like dressing up and playing with dolls. Those two sort of aspects of self, Um, but what? I observed and noticed that when I was in a particularly botch or tomboy phase, my mother would get very agitated. Um, and she during teenage years, which were hideous. She was always, you know, wanting me to have boyfriends. And [00:04:30] I remember one year she bought me makeup for a birthday present. And you know, the these nonspecific desires on her part for me to turn into what we would call a normal girl. And I use that word very cautiously. So you were. You were at the hospital. Your parents were at the hospital and the nurse said, Oh my God, it's a It's a mad you weren't You weren't obviously sent home as Aphrodite like here's [00:05:00] our new baby back to that. So what? What happens? And I've had to fill the gaps in because I didn't have that conversation with my mom. I I'm imagining at that point, you know, the hospitals mobilised so staff would have come running. My mom's probably sedated she So it was like a emergency. Yeah, treated like an emergency. I'm taken away and there would have been the first of many very [00:05:30] invasive examinations. So? So let's be clear to people what's going on. Maybe wow, um, the the more commonly commonly used term as intersex and we have. It's a medical umbrella term that covers all kinds of conditions, and it's on a continuum. So at one end a. A baby would look completely normally male or female [00:06:00] at at the other end of the continuum, you would look at the genitalia and not be totally sure, you know, and it's interesting this binary world of ours. Um, apparently you have to be male or female. It makes everybody happy. So at the time I was born in 1953 the paradigm that was still largely operating here in New Zealand was a Victorian one, [00:06:30] and the thinking was derived from medical legal thinking, and it went something like that. It was considered inappropriate to deny the rights and privileges to somebody who may potentially be male. OK, so under that paradigm, uh, Children who for whom the genitalia was ambiguous. That's the term that's used were largely assigned male. So my [00:07:00] parents took home a male child with the with the name Bruce Mitchell lead. And that's how I lived. For the first year of my life, however, things weren't completely, um, normal. I would have had what was considered a small Penis, and probably it was assumed undescended testes. So just before my first birthday, I went back to Auckland for another medical procedure [00:07:30] where they quite literally cut me open, Um, and otherwise healthy. Oh, totally. Yeah. So this is, you know, this is huge invasive surgery. Basically pulled on my gut out on a little baby. Um, and inside they found a uterus. So in a 24 hour period, I went from being my parent's son future all black inheritor of the farm to being their daughter in somebody's [00:08:00] future bride, you know, And my poor parents with as far as I can work out no psychological support at all. Um, so they went up with Brace, and they they came back with with Margaret, you know, huge I. I have reached the place where I can just think what that was like for them, Which is good, because there were many years where I was very angry at my parents. And, um thankfully, [00:08:30] they went to life because I would have hated what I would have done to them if if they had been around as I tried to figure all this out and make sense of it. So you travel quite a bit money. And, um, you were saying that a trip a trip to America was really was all major for you? When was that? OK, so, um, you know, you asked me before how this had gone, So I have these periods of time in my life where I try to get information and make sense. And like when [00:09:00] I got that word Hermaphrodite I. I actually couldn't find a place to hold that in my reality after my mom died. And it's about 24 years ago now, um, she left a whole lot of documents, a very organised person for all of us, and and, um, my pie was my Plunket book, and it was one day when I was going through that I found a It's It's weird. It's a shame we haven't got it to look at, but it's somebody with has very carefully cut bits out of it, [00:09:30] and and what I think happened is my mom went through that book and I think she thought she had removed all the references to my being different. But there's two that are still in there. So there's one. I think I'm aged about six months, and it says, nice wee lad. And then just before my first birthday, it says sex. Um, seen by doctor blah, blah, blah sex determined as female. Now, when I read that and realised that was a book about me, like I just ran into this wall, [00:10:00] you know, I had grown. I I'd grown up on a farm. Um, I'd been inculcated with our culture that said that you were either male or female, you know? So how could I hold this information? And And the other thing I couldn't work out is how the hell could someone make a mistake? Because at that point, I didn't know anything about ambiguous genitalia. You know, I, I just thought that Children were born, you know, with genitals that look typically male or typically [00:10:30] female. So you know, I, I that that's a journey, and I get little bits of information, and sometimes I can hold it. And sometimes I just pack it sort of deep in my head. Um, but in in my late thirties, it gets harder and harder. Um, and what I would recognise now, as I was suffering from a form of depression, I become quite suicidal. [00:11:00] Um, and thank God I had a neighbour a a person that I had a lot of time and I happened to talk to this person just randomly about some of the stuff that was going on, and she picked up on enough of it and said, I think you need to see he rodenberg who was a fabulous, um, doctor is still alive at the time she practised in the hut. So I in those [00:11:30] days I worked for the regional council, and it's funny to think, because we didn't do our own typing. We had typists to type for us. You know, this is pre computers. Um, and there was a fabulous person in the typing pool who's still a close friend, and I asked Gay if she had type a personal letter for me, and she said, Sure, mate. We'll do it after work. And so we sat and do you know, it took five hours to type that letter. And, you know, I will always hold [00:12:00] gay close to my heart because she did that leather without blinking, you know, And I'm trying. That was my first attempt to try and put what I knew to words. Yeah, it's interesting to think about now how hard that was. Anyway, this letter went off, and I unfortunately don't have a copy of it. Um, and and he got the letter and she had what's called called a closed practise. But she contacted me and said she would [00:12:30] see me once, So I went out and that amazing doctor saw me that first time for an hour and a half. And she would tell me later that she herself didn't know what intersex was. She carried out a very gentle and, um, pro was probably the first time in my life that a doctor had touched me in a respectful way. You know, that in itself was so healing. And really, that's the start of the journey. [00:13:00] So through I, um, started going to Elizabeth Kubler Ross workshops which were therapeutic. They were weeklong, intensive, live in workshops for people who had experienced significant trauma in their lives. And that's really where I start to learn, You know, some basic tools that that really anchored me as a person and and because it I I used to joke and say [00:13:30] I was a head that towed a body around. It's not really very funny to me anymore, but that's what it was like. I. I lived completely out of my body, Um, what we would call being emotionally illiterate. So you know, I, I start, I start the journey and it's really once I become a bit more anchored and self, Um, and start realising that you're actually entitled to a good life, [00:14:00] that I start my own research. And so, um, it was a friend, Jenny Rowan, who's now mayor of Coast. Um had been at a conference and she overheard someone talking about intersex in America. And so Jenny knew enough about my story to go. I think this is someone that you need to [00:14:30] be in touch. So I wrote to the organisation in America. Um, which is funny when I say organisation because in those days. It was just one person, and Cheryl wrote to me and we exchanged letters and then invited me to well, invited lots of people, um, to go to California for the first retreat. Wow. And that's the the first ever intersex retreat in the world in the world in the world. And [00:15:00] you know that for me was life changing because I what year was that? That's 96 96. Um, that's the first time that I meet other people I had prior to America, um, managed with support and help to get access to medical books. But there are appallingly hideous way to try and work out who the hell you are. I mean, this is pathology, [00:15:30] um, photographs of people with their eyes blanked out and standing naked and their, you know, different bodies on display. So for me to meet another person, I, I recognise one of the things that has happened to intersex people is we have no echo, no mirror and one of the things that you need as you're growing up as a developmental sequence. And I think a similar thing happens to many trans [00:16:00] people as well. You know, you don't have that echo there. Isn't that this is what that reflection To see yourself totally. And so you know that that 10 days that I was away in America and hanging out with other intersex people and hearing these stories was transforming. So, you know, I came back and and made a decision to set up a similar organisation to is, um, it's changed and evolved [00:16:30] over the years. It's become these days exclusively an educational training organisation. In the early days, I tried to have it more as a peer support organisation, but we didn't have the resources. We didn't have the trained people to to manage that. Cool. So tell me a little bit about your work now. So you work as a a counsellor who's your client base, and and you've also you've just come back from a weekend in Hamilton. Um, for a real massive exhibition, Can you tell me? Tell us a bit about that. Well, I mean, [00:17:00] my life has completely changed. So, um, around about that time that I first went to see, you know, I was coping all right emotionally because, as I have explained, I was completely cut off from my emotions. So I functioned very sort of cognitively in my head, but it was really affecting my physical body. And so I had something like a a physical breakdown [00:17:30] and had to leave my job. And in those days I was in a very good, very well paid job. And so trying to work out how I could, um, resurrect a career and I'd been working in civil defence and the area I'd been really interested in was critical incident stress management, which is really interesting because I never thought that it was about me. I always thought it was about looking after my staff, [00:18:00] though I realised now obviously there was part of me that was trying to understand. And so it was fairly, um, obvious. Once I started thinking about it that I could retrain as a counsellor and pull across some of those skills and knowledge, which is what I did. I retrained as a counsellor. Um, I've had a very small, private practise for years. Um, it always ran out a lot and I didn't see [00:18:30] lots of people. But then I think three years ago I was made redundant from my main job and you know, had to face what I was going to do. And I made the decision that I'd always wanted to have, um, this private practise and do more work in this area. And it just seemed like the right the right time to do that. So I do. I have a a private practise. Um, I have a spec. I've developed [00:19:00] a specialty, working with people with gender issues, Um, people who are struggling with difference, and that comes in many forms. It's not just around gender and gender identity and sexual orientation. There's many people for home being different. It's hard. Is quite a large education part there, or is it quite separate from Well, you know, I My [00:19:30] original training was as a teacher, and it's funny because I spend a lot of my life avoiding or trying to get away from that. And one of the really nice things that's happened is, you know, I've I've actually accepted that I like teaching. I'm actually quite good at it. And there's a huge amount of, um, training and education that needs to occur in this area. Um, we live in this still, you know, some things have changed But some things haven't that we [00:20:00] live in a very binary, um, Eurocentric world, and it's actually a a poor capture of humanity. I think humans are far more diverse than that simple model would lead us to believe. And one of the things that really interests me and in my research that I've done is many so called Third World countries [00:20:30] have cultures where gender is captured in a much more complex way than the West has. In fact, here in the Pacific, um, we have examples of that. And so I I see, um, actually the West, who likes to think that they're the most advanced about everything. Um, not very well advanced in the area [00:21:00] of gender and diversity. But it's changing. That's the good and exciting thing. And you assume nothing exhibition that you've you've just been up to in in Hamilton. That's that's that's played a massive part, I think, in all huge. So, um, photographer Rebecca Swan originally took these amazing photographs that became part of a coffee table book called Assume Nothing, [00:21:30] and it is a AAA book that captures, um Gen gender diversity, not just the because there's people from all around the planet and that book, though the majority of people would be from. And when the book was launched, the book launch was seen by a filmmaker, Kirsty McDonald, who approached Rebecca to see if she could bake a documentary [00:22:00] film about assume. Nothing for several years went by and and that project, you know, developed into something. Um, that's more than that. It certainly does capture the process of Rebecca working with people, which is wonderful. She's an extraordinary person, but but the assume nothing film, I think, has has another layer and and if you like photography is two dimensional, and Kirsty [00:22:30] film really made this a three dimensional reality. Now the here and and and Lower hut picked up on this and in 2007, I think 2000 No. 2008, um, the first exhibition opened, and that exhibition has gone on and travelled. So it's it's been in. [00:23:00] It was the longest running in the house, and then it went to Auckland to Christchurch, Palmerston North and finished in in Hamilton. You know, and I'm so proud because for people who have seen the exhibition, um, a lot of the images involve what people would call nudity. So beautiful, stunning photographs of people without clothes [00:23:30] on. And yet that's not what it's about. It's about this astonishing celebration of human difference, and I think it's how Beck has taken those photographs. And, as I say, amplified by Kirstie's beautiful film Making This exhibition has been a very safe way, and and I like what you said, how huge it's been because I don't know how many 1000 people now have seen, but I'm imagining it's [00:24:00] getting up there. Probably over 500,000 people. I don't know. Huge numbers have been through where the exhibition has been, you know, and and it's been a a safe and gentle way for people to explore what many people find very scary. I think there's something core in humans when we're around something we don't understand. It's frightening, Um, and that that exhibition has probably [00:24:30] meant that there'll be some young people grow up in who who don't have to have the experience that I've had and many other people have had. You know, I've, um of it being frightening of not getting the appropriate support. So do you think what happened to you as a as a as a baby in the fifties, Would that still happen today? Um, sadly, it could still easily happen today. It would depend very much on the household [00:25:00] that you were born into the computer literacy of your parents. Um, how comfortable they are with difference. And the other key ingredient is the medical people involved. So the, you know, the midwife, the the specialists, Um, I'm pleased to say that there are people who are doing it differently in in this country. But there's also people still in that old old paradigm. And there's [00:25:30] still parents who are freaked out having a child who's different. So on On one side, parents will say, you know, they just want the best for their Children, and I believe that's largely true. But there's also that sort of black underbelly side. Um, what used to talk about is the shadow, where people are more concerned. What are the neighbours going to think? Um, you know, how could you do this to the family? And, you know, all [00:26:00] clear identifying people certainly know about that. Yeah. So you've done heaps of Yeah, I've been to heaps of the education stuff that you've done, um, within diverse queer communities as well as in mainstream as well. And so a lot of your your client base will be part of kind of diverse queer communities. How do you think you know? Is there? Is there a Wellington queer community is there in New Zealand, I tell all the communities diverse communities. And, um if there are, um, [00:26:30] yeah, what? What's he kind of What? What could we all be doing better or where do you see as heading or nice questions? Um, I think the thing that's really changed for me is these days, I'm very comfortable in my own skin, and I have fun doing this. So there's an element of celebration and playfulness, so I do not try to pass. [00:27:00] So this is a radio interview. And for people who don't know me, I have facial hair. You can't describe it as a beard because it's not that substantive, but it's facial hair. Um, I don't wear standard conforming clothes, and I like, you know, and I'm doing more and more of that, so I always wear a tie, but you might find me a tie with a pink shirt um, you know, wearing jewellery with, you know, things [00:27:30] that would be assumed to be masculine. And and there's there's a level of deliberateness about it. But there's also just, um yeah, me being playful and and wearing things that I like wearing hard to do because they're not easily close to find, You know, you go into clothes shops and it's amazing how conforming Just you know what? The mass market is around, what's available for people to buy. Um, so [00:28:00] I think that's the key. And, you know, my parents gave me some really good things, and one of the things that my dad gave me genetically is a sense of humour. Um, thank God. Cool. Um, we we can do better. I think the queer community is quite tough on itself. Or probably more accurately, we should say queer communities. [00:28:30] Um, it's interesting. I think minority groupings right across all cultures and sort of start to have rolls that are even fiercer than mainstream sometimes. So I see that, um, so kind of about policing, you know, there's a right way to do things. Um, and I guess where I'm coming from is [00:29:00] I want people to pull forth. You know this unique, beautiful being, whoever they are, and I and I don't see that conforming to some kind of railway track conformist notion of of, you know that that people have to dress a certain way or, you know, wear certain kind of clothes to pass. That's to me. That's sad. Um, I love welling living here in Wellington because I think it's much easier [00:29:30] to be ourselves here. It was interesting being in Hamilton. I had a very warm reception up there and met some fabulous people. But what I noticed is walking around the town. People stared at me all the time and people would talk, you know, as you're going down the street. Oh, you see that? But a really nice thing. It happened. I was walking near the, um, technical institute and there were some young people sitting at a table and I I'd gone past and it seemed weird to stop, [00:30:00] so I just carried on. But I was out of I. I counted and this young Maori guy went. Man, see that gender chick and it was said in a really kind of positive, excited way. That was probably the nicest thing. Most of the comments were more in the sort of shock. Um, and it's just an important reminder because we can forget, you know, what Wellington gives us, And it is that [00:30:30] ability to be ourselves and relative. When I say relative safety, I would be pretty careful about where I walked around at night by myself. Yeah, so? So, gender chick, that's I haven't heard that term. So you got We've got GL BT I and I think sometimes it's been extended to GL BT I TT QF or something keeping on and on and on. But the terms are changing, and young people are using using different terms that I just I like that. And I see [00:31:00] that in some of the people that I am working with, um, that's a real deconstruction, and they wouldn't use that academic term. Um, and it gives me hope, because it does not seem to be as rule bound. So people really sort of doing that. Who am I and pulling that forth? Um, I get excited by that, you know, and and, dear God, we need to attend to the language because it is so restricting. [00:31:30] Yeah, so Maybe we just get back to a, You know, a simple word like queer, though I know how how older people hate that term. Yeah. Um what would I like to see us? I'd like to see us be more gentle with each other more supporting, um, celebrating more. Hm. [00:32:00] Um, anything else? I'm very excited by the gay games coming here. Are you Are you planning on playing anything? Um, not at this point. You know, I certainly plan to be involved. Um, but it's probably going to be more in the sort of social educational component. It's interesting. I. I was AAA runner and not a bad [00:32:30] runner when I was at high school, but I think my running days might be passed. Awesome. Thank you very much, man. Bruce, for sharing with us. Cool.
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