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Linda. It's been 30 years since the arson attack on the lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre. I'm just wondering, can you give me a bit of background on the centre and the collections that it held? Yes, the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre that was set up originally in about 1977 under the National Gay Rights Coalition, which was a, um, umbrella, um, group National Group. One of the few times there has been an attempt at an actual national organisation to, um and basically it was, [00:00:30] um, archiving the resources of the coalition, um, archives from other groups, uh, serials. You know, magazines, um, newsletters that came from around the country and overseas. Um, and also the archives of the Pink Triangle, Um, newspaper come magazine, which was really important, um, source of news and information in New Zealand in the seventies and eighties. And so the the centre was administered [00:01:00] by a trust there had been, um, you know, archivists there were sorry. Archivists and librarians involved with it. Things were, um, you know, reasonably well documented and organised. And it, um it held it. It held a lot of, um, material. Um, that had been used during the, uh, homosexual law reform campaign. If we're talking about the A by the time we get to the arson attack, it held that and also, um, one of its areas of its specialty and expertise was HIV [00:01:30] AD. And, um, a lot of information was produced, and so on, so but we're talking almost like a transitional period because there was the, um, national gay rights. Um, centre in is there in street. And this is an amazing building. Um, old building that got, um you know, uh, de demolished during the redevelopment of Wellington and in the late eighties, uh, of that area, um, [00:02:00] where there were actually quite a lot of activist groups. So the, um, gay community centre that was very important during the law reform campaign. It was in in the big basement area, Um, the Women's Resource Centre and Women's Health Centre were on the ground floor. I think they were really important. Lots and lots of, um, you know, drop in meetings. Lots of activities from there. Um, there was a lesbian centre there, and there are other you know, organisations like Amnesty International and so on. They had offices there. So it was a whole an old building [00:02:30] with lots of smallish spaces for offices and meeting rooms, and a few people lived there, which did turn out to be, um, quite crucial when the fire happened in September, Um, 1986 Because there were people on hand who who detected the fire. So it actually could have been a lot worse. Um, well, and of course, it could have been a lot worse had anyone being killed, But they the people who were there, had seen, um a couple of young guys [00:03:00] hanging around and, um, were able to give a description and so on to the police. But, uh, it sounds like, you know, people on the scene, um, fought the fire initially. And then when the fire brigade came, they were fairly, um, careful, uh, given the material that was there. But of course, you can't. Even even in big libraries and institutions, you can't completely avoid water. So so was the resource centre, um, specifically targeted for us. It seems to be Yeah, well, that's where the [00:03:30] fire was. The fire was set in a The resource centre was the biggest room fire was set in the corner of the room and material was, um in that corner was destroyed. And that was a lot of that was what, um what archivists call ephemera? Um, which is really important to communities like ours because it's the the, um advertising we produce. So it's posters. It's flyers. It's information about what's, you know, events that are going on. It's the kind of material that's produced for immediate [00:04:00] use rather than long term keeping. But archives like to, of course, gather that because it gives a really good picture of of the activities. At the time, quite a lot of some of the, um, like manuscripts and photos were in cabinets or further away from the fire, so they weren't so badly damaged. The, um, some of the serials, though, which is like a news newsletters, um, magazines, um, from New Zealand and overseas were damaged. And some of the, um, pamphlets that we had books [00:04:30] were sort of in were singed. So we've got you know, there is evidence of the damage in the collection. Still, and do you think the arson was related to homosexual law reform, which had passed a few months earlier, Or was it something completely different? Well, because the word fag was written on the scene. Um, I think it definitely was related to, um, anti gay, anti lesbian, anti law reform stuff. And the homosexual law reform campaign had stirred [00:05:00] up a lot of, um uh, violence. Really? I mean, they really I mean, there always were was sort of some abuse and people being beaten up on the street, and that kind of thing happened. Um, but it really the because all the quite vitriolic anti stuff stirred up and in a lot of, um, hostility and anger. And, um, and quite a lot of young guys [00:05:30] because that sometimes in the street, you know, there were there were groups that would have a stall and there would be quite a young men on them. And so, you know, I mean, you can think about all the different ways people respond if they feel threatened personally or if they have any questions about themselves. I mean, there's lots of analysis you could bring to bear on it, but there were I think there were really some very stirred up young men around town and did the police ever find out who did it? No. No. So what do you think? The significance of the arson was [00:06:00] on the on the direction of archiving rainbow material in New Zealand. Well, it did mean that safety and security were prioritised, maybe more than they would have been in the previously, because it was clear how vulnerable any collection like that could be. The, um, archives were supported by, um, librarians and archivists in salvaging their material and in particular, staff from the Turnbull Library. And the Turnbull Library [00:06:30] has always ongoing had an interest in helping people, um, to look after their material with, if whether it's in the library or in other places. And the national libraries, you know, preserve conservators have worked with all kinds of other community organisations. So it's, you know, it was part of that tradition and staff did assist, um, and that led to discussion about an arrangement with the Turnbull Library where the collection would be secure and safe. But the Turnbull Library is a research library. So then you're bringing that [00:07:00] collection into a library, um, where it will be treated like other research collections, which means it's not a place people can easily walk into and browse the collection. And so that in a way, you ended up we ended up with the safety, um, being, uh, becoming a concern that we always needed to think about. But I don't. You see, in a way you could say then that we ended up with an arrangement that has benefited [00:07:30] us in the long term. If it was a time when the in the in the late eighties, when a lot of, um, lesbian and gay archives around the world were, um, finding it hard to keep going, And part of that was the, um, impact of HIV AIDS and other things, you know, the kind of gentrification that was happening here meant premises were harder to get. There were all kinds of things going on. And so a number of archives, um, in other countries ended up either [00:08:00] ceasing to exist or coming to an arrangement with, um, a bigger institution. And so for us, you know, the no doubt that the, um, fire the arson attack drove that to happen more quickly. Probably. But it would. It's something that was happening anyway, because for for other reasons and so What is the, uh, status now of lag ans in relation to the Turnbull? Well, um, the It's basically a similar agreement that the the [00:08:30] lesbian and gay archives are owned by a community trust on behalf of the community so that the anyone who gives material to lag ans gives it to the trust and the trust has an agreement with the Turnbull Library that the library will house the collections and provide access to the collections. So the trust, um, you know, acquires material discusses, um, offers and donations and that with with, um, donors who who want to give us material [00:09:00] and then, um, deposits us in the Turnbull and anyone who wants to use it comes and uses it in the Turnbull library and and, um and the Turnbull assists, um, in that, uh, providing access to the collections. So why do you think it's important to collect rainbow material specifically? Well, I think it's really I think it's really important to know all the varied aspects of our histories. I. I think that is just incredibly [00:09:30] important. And when I think of what I the time I spent trying to find traces of lesbians, you know in the public library and any library you could go into talking to people looking for clues. Um, I think I don't want all of the work that those of us in the seventies onwards did, um, to record, um, our existence to be lost so that someone else has to start again. I think it's really, really because I think all the [00:10:00] things that happen around our communities ebb and flow. But I think it's really important for us to have keep our histories and to make them available to each to each other. So we're keeping them for our own sake for the for the, um LGBT people in the future, um, and the wider community because I think it's a really important part of the New Zealand story that, um that all these communities existed. Um, they continue to exist. They have a big impact on New Zealand culture. They have, [00:10:30] um, contributed to a lot of changes and developments in the country. And it's I mean, one of some one of the aspects for me is just that basic thing of visibility which goes back to the seventies. You know, politics and that that it's so important for us all to be visible. So can you comment on depositing, say, with which is, uh, a specific archive of interest versus depositing with a more generalist kind of institution [00:11:00] that's collecting general material? It's, um I think it's really interesting. It's like, No, there isn't a right answer. I wanted to say that for the start, but, you know, I mean, obviously my I work for the Alexander Turnbull Library. My, um, volunteer work is for the lesbian and gay archives, and so I appreciate both kind of sites of collecting, but, um, so So I think, you know, it's just that just for people who've got material to consider where they would like it to be, what context they would like [00:11:30] it to be in the, um if if a material is deposited in leg ends, I guess it's going to be, um, handled by people who have, um, a good idea of the context that it was created in how it relates to other similar material and material of the time. Um, and the ability to, um, you know, describe it maybe in a richer way, because of being aware of those relationships. Um, but say if someone [00:12:00] lives in the then it's important that the archives has a record of who The communities that were in the in the So you know, either It's good, I think, to have, um, material say in LA ends, but knowledge of it in the in the local archive or the other way around. And we're all las are always really interested to hear from any other archival or historical societies. If they have material that's relevant because, you know, you know, [00:12:30] and so we can tell researchers and tell community members about it, Um, I think if you are deposited, say, in one of the larger, you know, libraries, the research libraries, there's special collections in Auckland. There's the Auckland Um Memorial Museum. There's a library in Dunedin. There's libraries throughout the country. Um, then your material is more likely to be, um, findable on a database. So you you sort of Lagos can provide that more specialist knowledge, [00:13:00] but we don't have all the tools. Um, just at the moment to make our material more widely available. Um, so it depends on what's the priority for you. And I think the other thing is the issue of dealing with sensitive material, Um, and the issue of like issues like people's names. More and more libraries have catalogues online, and I think it's good to think about what what needs what can be available online. What is OK to be available online. I mean, partly we want visibility. As [00:13:30] I was saying earlier, That's really important, and it's really good to know specific named people. But on the other hand, it's very contemporary. People's lives change people's employment situation changes. So working out, you know how and when. To put those sort of deeper levels of detail online is quite a critical issue. I think for our communities in particular, because it might be, you know, at one point you we think, Oh, that's really good Things are getting more liberal, but it isn't uniform and it's not permanent. [00:14:00] And so I think we do have to still think of how do we combine being out and being visible with, um not endangering and exposing people? And I guess that maybe quite a bit of the material in would be dealing with a person's sexual or gender identity. And so it's like, deeply personal, isn't it? I mean it. Well, it is very personal, and and so, you know, if you if it's held in las, um and people who are interested [00:14:30] in researching that come here and to the Turnbull Library and look in the Lagan collections, it's a little bit different from having all that or quite a lot of that information online available to anybody. And it's just I mean, that's the way archives are going to have a lot of material online. Um, and it's good and important. It makes it easier for people to find out. But it's How do you How do you negotiate those issues? Where, where, Um, you know, you're just being careful with people's information. So can you describe [00:15:00] some of the the the in the collections? Um, yes, we've got a really good cross section of materials. So there's, like, manuscripts. There's the posters, and we have, you know, um, badgers and, um flyers. You know that I mentioned before There are, um, photographs. Um, there is really It's a very good audio visual collection of recordings, but, um, from, uh, the eighties. Really? Um, maybe even a little bit earlier. Uh, and then [00:15:30] publications and the The book collection is based on the collection of Jack Goodwin, who is one of the founders of the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society and the Dorian Society. Um and so within that, so say, Jack Goodwin he collected, you know, a lot of publications that were contemporary for him. So So we have, you know, um, publications like Kinsey report and stuff like that, that it gives you a context for what was happening here, uh, in New Zealand and overseas. And then, um, we [00:16:00] have the papers, um, of the, um, gala groups of the seventies in different centres in New Zealand. And although the interesting thing about the seventies in particular is that no, none of us were very hot on minutes. So when you think about, um, an organization's papers, you often think about their minutes and their decisions and their processes, and that's not always that clear. There's some but, you know, so you've got to think Well, what what is the kind of organisation that we're collecting material about and what [00:16:30] were the, um, ways that it showed its existence and how it operated? So that's why that's quite an interesting challenge. Um, and we have, um a variety of lesbian, um uh, materials. And there was a, uh, archivist in welling in. Sorry. In Hamilton. Um, who collected together a, um a called the waxing moon archive. And when she stopped archiving, she gave it to, So [00:17:00] that was great to get that, um, we had, you know, me deposited some material here, the performer. So that's, you know, um, just shows that breadth and richness of of, um, the collections, um, and ongoing right till now, where one of the areas we really want to, um, um, expand is to be able to collect more digital material, and this is like an area that we're still trying to figure out. But, [00:17:30] um, our communities are very much online and very much on social media and so ways to to collect that material or that's a kind of a crucial and, um, quite urgent thing for us. I mean, sometimes we are receiving, like, um, audio and video recordings and photographs now come in digital form. So that's one thing to look after the things that are produced digitally like that. But then also to work out how to if a whole political campaign was on Facebook [00:18:00] and that's the main record of the campaign. And Facebook, Um, people can't organisations can't get their material off Facebook Individuals can't But organisations can't It's kind of a tricky situation, So there are quite a lot of issues. I mean and other archives are grappling with these things too. But I think for us, digital is really important because our all of our various communities, um a lot of stuff happens online in terms of say like, um moving image [00:18:30] or audio recordings. Um, did you have, like, an event audio as well? Yes, Yes, we do. And, um, one of the earliest, um, events recorded was the first lesbian conference, which is in Christchurch in 1974. And, um, we've got some of the speeches opening speeches from that conference, not the whole, um, proceedings. Um, we've got, um, a speech that, um, Robin Duff made in 1976 at a gay liberation [00:19:00] conference. And in a way, that was one of the things that led to the setting up of the National Gay Rights Coalition, which was the body that set up um, the resource centre, which then became an lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand. Um, and then we've got the lesbian, um, and the gay radio programmes that happened in the eighties and nineties from, um, in, uh, Wellington, Auckland and, um, Christchurch. And also there was, um, a gay [00:19:30] activist, one of the, um, gay liberation, um, founders and involved in the Dory and Barry Neils. He did lots of off the air recording, and he's recorded, um uh, any material on radio that related to particularly gay issues. So But that's why it's one of our quite rich, um collections. And we have We have preserved some of them and got access copies, and we're hoping to do more and be able to provide more in depth access to those. So do you think [00:20:00] the intention like back in the 1974 Conference, the intention of recording it was to keep it in some way in an archive? Or was it for, like, immediate distribution? I think it was more it was probably done so that someone could maybe write it up because in the what the main way of distributing ideas and that was via newsletters and magazines. And so, um, the the conference was organised by the Sisters for Hoop Equality, which started in, um Christchurch. But also be, um, was moved up [00:20:30] in Sorry, set up in Wellington. Um And, um, they had a magazine called, um Circle and then Lesbian Feminist Circle and and I think that most likely it would have been recorded in order to write something, but also, someone could well have just thought this is you know, this is a significant event. It's the first time we're getting together. There was a lot of awareness of that, and many of the lesbians involved had been, um either in feminist groups or in gay liberation groups and really wanted to get [00:21:00] something that was specifically lesbian going. So they were really aware of initiating a new thing. Just thinking back to some of those earlier organisations. And I'm wondering, was there any, um, kind of police harassment of those early organisations? I'm thinking, you know, were they did they have to be careful about what they wrote down? And so does that lead you to having holes in the collection? I don't think so. I think the care I think no Well, they certainly like the [00:21:30] um, Dorian Society. And that was careful to put a structure around itself where it could avoid police harassment. Um, And they, for example, this was the first gay men's club organised in the early sixties in Wellington That set up the first moves towards homosexual law reform in New Zealand. Um, you know, so they and they were very formal. So? So that was but their concern, in a way was less around direct police harassment. Um, then, um, like the liquor laws [00:22:00] and stuff like that that could be used against them. And I suppose that's the thing you've got. Where, in some cases, the police, um, turn a blind eye, so to speak. And in other cases, the police can use the liquor laws to shut you down. So, um, I think there certainly was has been harassment of our communities, but I don't think it, um, affected what was written down apart from membership lists. So people didn't always want their names associated [00:22:30] with things. And so we take extra care with if we do get a membership list as part of a collection, we take a lot of care with that, but it is really I mean, it's one of those sort of mixed things where, you know, there are questions about privacy. But also, you know, to know who was part of things is incredibly valuable for future research. So, yeah, what about some of the, um oldest? Well, see, we're not. We formed. Formed in the seventies. Depends [00:23:00] what you think of as oldest. I mean, we haven't, um you know, some of it. I mean, if you think of some of the recordings, for example, people are talking about their memories that go back to World War Two. So that's like, not it was done a bit later, but they are actually talking about, um, the things that happened to them in the forties, as you know, gay men or lesbians or whatever. So I think that's that's really valuable. And that sort of points out the value of oral history. And then, um, the older [00:23:30] would be things like the books that, um, Jack Goodwin collected that I mentioned. Um, and I mean this and this is a way because we're fairly recent. We started out from an activist space the then we don't have a lot that is pre sixties And that's where we're really reliant on other organisations and institutions being aware of what they've got, and that's kind of a big lack at the moment. I think in New Zealand that of working out ways of, [00:24:00] um using the language people use about themselves. So not saying this is, you know, a queer man or something if that person wouldn't use that. But flagging this is of interest. If you're interested in those areas of same sex activity, for example, so we're thinking of people like, say, Catherine Mansfield. Yeah, well, Catherine Mansfield, I mean, it's been very, um, tricky. There's been a lot of, you know, having her lesbian, um, relationships recognised by the people who memorialised [00:24:30] her around Wellington. But, um so that's a good example of where it's not necessarily very openly recognised by organisations that hold material about her that those relationships existed, But, um, because there's been quite a number of biographies and some of them have treated that well, some haven't, um, then, you know, you can probably get on to that if you're looking for material about her. But if you there was people who are less well known or not, known at all. [00:25:00] Um, then that might not be flagged. That they were, um, you know, lesbian or gay, or they were involved in same sex relations. Let's say the language that we've used to identify ourselves as has changed quite dramatically over the last 30 years. So stands for the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. Does the archive hold? Um, other parts of the Rainbow Communities? Yes, it does. And and And we are really interested in, um, [00:25:30] archiving, um the any kind of material produced by communities. Um, Trans bisexual, um, any other communities that feel they would like to be associated. And I think for me, what's really important is not that everyone agrees or everybody has the same priorities. But it's like an alliance in a way of all those initials now, depending on how far you extrapolate [00:26:00] lesbian and gay, you know, bisexual, transgender, intersex. And then I've noticed people putting Plus on the end, which is a bit, but also I mean and also queer. I mean, queer itself is so interesting because it's really old. But then it's got this modern version as well. So I think that so we definitely are interested in and in talking to people about if if they're thinking they would like to offer us material what kind of conditions I'd like [00:26:30] to place on that, um, how they see their experience as fitting with and, you know, just having those discussions. But it's in our constitution. We've stuck with the, um, leg ends just because it's a good acronym. And, um and also we have, um, you know, a Maori name as well. So we and so we you know, that's a very inclusive name. So are you looking for new material [00:27:00] for the collection? Yeah. No, we're really We are very actively collecting. I mean, we've We're sort of at a point where we do need more. Um, we we're building a group of volunteers, which is great, and some and people have been really generous, and other people are waiting, um, and and keen to start working, um, we do need to have maybe, um slightly big a slightly bigger core of people with archival skills or library skills. Um, that would be really that's really good, but we're definitely [00:27:30] taking in, you know, and interested in collecting material that's being produced now, or things that people encounter, um, from their past activities, either personal or political. So we're interested in documenting our lives and our groups and associations and political campaigns. So it's kind of quite broad in that way. Um, and we do have, you know, some wonderful collections of, um, some diaries and letters and so on, and we were interested in in increasing [00:28:00] that where possible. Um so So it's kind of that older material that people have from their past and when they move and have to move house and have to clean out, they find things, um, things they may come across from even from further back in history and also, um, current material. So if anyone's involved in a particular group or political campaign, what you're producing now have you found with the advent of the, uh, the Internet and and [00:28:30] the more kind of, um, mainstreaming of of rainbow cultures, has there been a greater kind of access of of the archives? Well, it's been mixed, really. I mean, there was quite a lot around the law reform, um, anniversary and people wanting to use things in all kinds of other, um, public, um, forums and on websites and stuff like that, Um, but we're still kind of on the cusp. I think of that next step of us having more but more material online and having the funding [00:29:00] to put more material online, um and therefore material being used more widely. So when I say material, you have to think about what can be online because it's a recent collection. Also, most of it is still in copyright. And even though when we were creating political groups, we didn't always think about copyright, we do have to think about who do we need to consult before this could be made more widely available when it's when it's records of a group or posters from a group? [00:29:30] You know, for example. But I'm hoping that we can get, for example, some of our poster collection online. I think that will be a great move to see um, all those wonderful posters that have been produced to advertise, um, various events, dances, marches, it gives a, you know, a big wide range of activities. So how would you, for instance, um, navigate, say, pink Triangle, the magazine where it was done by a collective nonprofit, Uh, How do you kind of negotiate those? Well, I think we would. The way it is at [00:30:00] the moment, we would have to go back and talk to them. And we would have to, um, contact some of the con well, as many of the contributors as we could. So that would be That would be a very interesting exercise to do. And I think, for example, Pink Triangle would be a valuable, um, uh, magazine to put online because it is like it was like a quite a good news magazine. Um, so that will be an interesting thing. But we do have to You do have we do because we want [00:30:30] to also, as well as making these things available and making the ideas available. We want to acknowledge the creators, the people who actually made things happen. And I think it's really important to think of ourselves as building on other people's work. And that's what I like about the archives, because you see the traces of all the work that's been done over the years and all the struggles people have had and the good times they've had and the campaigns they've taken on, and I think that feeling of communities and groups of networks moving and acting together [00:31:00] and acting on their own, and the the sort of the courage and the pleasure that you get from that, um is really important. But it it it is also important to acknowledge those people acknowledge who designed the posters. You know, for any particular group who, um, you know, produced the newspaper who actually wrote for it under the sort of current copyright things. You really only it's only really individuals unless it's a, um, you know, some kind of an incorporated group that [00:31:30] you can give that acknowledgement to and also in our magazines and that a lot of things are unattributed, so in posters, people didn't necessarily sign them. And, you know, so there's lots of, um, difficulties in finding out. But I think we should make our best stab at it. And then, um, you know, decide how we go forward and whether we put material up and ask people to come forward or or what we do. But I think it's a good, um, a good process to start. [00:32:00] This is the, uh, 30th year, uh, since homosexual law reform, and it's also the 30th anniversary of the arson attack on the lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre. Uh, do you have any reflections on, um, how far we've come? Uh, I think it kind of a bit circular. You know, it's kind of like some things have developed and evolved and other things maybe haven't. And I think the you've [00:32:30] mentioned about sort of Integra mainstream and integration and that kind of thing, that obviously anything that makes the lives of, um, you know, lesbians, gay men, everyone associated in our communities better is really good. I mean, I think I really support that, but I do feel that whole kind of broader view of the cultural changes we thought would be were important. Um, that was part of this kind of critique of lesbian feminism and [00:33:00] of gay liberation. I think that's kind of dropped away. And what's been focused on is very much, um, integration and ways of being part of the society. And that's important, you know. And everyone has to make, for example, have a livelihood and that kind of thing. But I think we've lost that kind of, um and I have that edge of criticising or in a constructive way, but the critique of society as it is and [00:33:30] the, um, hetero sexism racism as it intersects with them. I just think that it's that that kind of that it would be really good if we could integrate a bit more of that into our thinking. Um, now that we have done quite a lot of the, um, areas of civil rights that were identified and gay and they were important to lesbian, feminist and gay liberation as well. But the broader critique that they lay in was important, too. So I kind of it's a mixed. I have a mixed [00:34:00] feeling when I look at where we've come, and especially when I look at the, um, writing and so on that was produced in the seventies, I think. Well, yes, we've managed to, um, you know, do quite a bit in this area in that area. But have we kind of made an impact? And it's a bit like sometimes you think about how infinitely adaptable capitalism is, how it just seems to go on, no matter what happens. No matter how people capitalist stuff up, they sometimes carry, keep on going, and sometimes you know, um, patriarchy [00:34:30] and heterosexuality seems the same that it can just adapt and move on and keep going, and it's really hard to change. Make, um, changes.
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