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So, Linda, you are involved in the activities leading up to homosexual law reform. Can you tell us how that came to be? Uh, well, I had been involved for many years. Um, I was, um, involved in the earlier days of women's liberation and, um, all through the seventies and on in lesbian feminism and also attended gay liberation and other kind of events, um, and and also, um, from [00:00:30] the then young bill, which was in 1974. I was involved to some degree. Um, So, uh, it's a kind of thing I would expect to be involved in because it had been, um, one of the issues I've been active on. Can you just recap for us what the then young bill was about? Well, um, that was the first attempt at law reform. There had been a petition in the late sixties, um, that the homosexual Law Reform Society had presented to parliament. [00:01:00] So there was a hearing of the petitions committee. So it wasn't the first time it had come up in parliament. Um, And then, um, in, um, 74 then young, who was a national MP. He, um, brought forward a, um crimes amendment bill to change the provisions relating to homosexual acts. Um, to decriminalise. But the age of consent would be, um, 20 or 21. I'm not clear about that. And that, um, had it had some support. Um, [00:01:30] I don't know that it was going to be successful necessarily. But one of the things that certainly derailed it was that Gerald Wall who was a Labour member of parliament, Um, for, um, he, um brought forward an amendment, which was, um, an amendment saying that, uh, basically outlawing, um, the provision of any positive information about homosexuality to young people. So really, it became [00:02:00] a whole freedom of speech issue. Um, and, you know, that was the kind of outrageous, um, provision that, um, Clause 28 was in England later, and we've seen in Russia recently. So And And that, um, caused a huge response not only, of course from, um, lesbian groups and gay liberation. Um, because obviously, you know, anything could end up in the hands of young people. You're not talking about Children. They were talking [00:02:30] about teenagers and everything. So really, it meant that there, you know, it was a complete reduction in our freedom of expression. But civil liberties and other liberals got very involved as well. And so there was a big debate around that. And at that time, I was just involved. Um, I'd just come back from living in Australia for a year, and I just, you know, went to meetings against the Wall Amendment and so on, So I wasn't sort of involved in organising anything. So how did you come to be involved [00:03:00] in the work that led up to 1986? Well, um, in at the especially at the gay liberation conferences that were held throughout the seventies, um, one strand was always decriminalisation. People, you know, had a much broader vision of what they wanted and the kind of social changes they wanted. Um, and the challenges to heterosexuality and hetero sexism and sexism and all of that, you know, was so decriminalisation was just one strand. And, [00:03:30] um, but when Warren Free decided to bring forward a bill, um, in the late seventies, for again for decriminalisation, but again with an unequal age of consent. Um, I was involved in lobbying against that. So lesbians and gay men from the National Gay Rights coalition, um lobbied against the unequal age of consent both times that Warren Free, who was an MP from Auckland from a labour MP, [00:04:00] um, attempted to bring the bill forward and both, you know, Warren and Young and that had good, you know, personal reasons for bringing the bill. And so it wasn't that it was just that they weren't prepared to go that extra bit and say, you know, we should be equal. And so, um, that was quite a big thing about um saying, actually, we don't want it if it's not equality, because we'll be stuck with it for a long time. It'll have lots of other implications. And one of the factors that made [00:04:30] lesbians get a bit more involved and certainly me, um, was that, uh, another MP called Dale Jones, who, um, was a national MP at that time later, came back as a New Zealand first MP. He said, whatever we if it showed any chance of going through, he would introduce an amendment to include lesbians. Uh, at that time, the only provision that affected lesbians was, um, when girls under 16 women over 21 that was, uh, you couldn't you That could, uh, a charge could be brought [00:05:00] against the woman if the woman got involved with a girl under 16. Um, that was the only act specifically, you know, charge that specifically affected women. And but he said whatever ended up being for men, he would bring an amendment and that women would be included as well. So that was a big biggie for us. And we certainly were not going to say we'd go along with anything like that and and that lesbians would suddenly have an age of consent and it would be unequal. And that would mean kind of [00:05:30] jettison. Jettisoning young lesbians and lesbians were really almost invisible under the law at the time. Yeah, and we were affected by, um You know, a lot of people thought we that lesbianism was illegal as well. And and we certainly were affected by things, but, yes, we didn't. There wasn't actually a legal provision apart from that one. And apart from the other ones, you know that we were able to discriminate on the grounds of, um it was not clear whether you could use that against lesbians to [00:06:00] you could, um, landlords to Could discriminate in other situations, People could be discriminated against. But, um, the other then then what happened is there was, um uh, uh A bill called the Equality Bill, which was prepared and promoted by gay men from Auckland. And they they did go for an just across the board age of consent. Um, and they were also trying to do other things like, um, remove rape the word rape from the statute book and have a crime across the board, you know, various sexual assault. [00:06:30] Um, uh, charges, which was something that he, you know, there has certainly, over the years been talk of, um, sort of decriminalising the crime de de genders. The crimes act in other ways. And so, um, they put that forward, and I think they were the They contact Fran Wilde about that bill, and but But we were very unhappy about that. That you would just offer up lesbians and you would do away with rape. Um, [00:07:00] without any, you know, we still, you know, the legislative treatment of rape and the police and judicial system. Treatment of rape is not good now, and it certainly wasn't good then. So, um, we thought that that was kind of, um, diminishing it as an offence. So were you able to have conversations with those men about that sort of change to legislation to get them to see your perspective? And then they just dropped it? Or [00:07:30] what happened was that, um when, um we heard about it. And also some gay men heard about it because I'm just trying to remember if the age of consent was, um equal or not. So I'll have to look remember that there certainly was unease about it. And, um, what happened was that we talked. Um, I personally don't think I did. But were lesbians talked to Fran Wild and other, um, labour women MP S and said, you know, this is a whole opening, a whole other [00:08:00] issue, and we don't support that. And we don't support, um, a bill that introduces an age of consent for lesbians because anything could go wrong as that bill goes through and you could end up with a higher a higher age of consent. So the so the MP S were actually being lobbied a bit by even different factions within the rainbow community. Oh, they definitely were, and because these were, um this idea came with an initiative mainly from Auckland gay men. [00:08:30] And, um, you know it It was a big, um, point of tension in the communities and the relationships among the different networks that some gay men and that, um, and lesbians said, we want an equal age of consent. And I can completely understand the point of view of other gay men, especially gay men that had lived through, you know, really hard times with the law. Um, who said No, we don't care. We just want we want an improvement [00:09:00] and then we'll keep you know we'll get something better later. So, um and I can understand that point of view, but I felt quite strongly that that it needed to be equal and because it said so much more. Accepting an unequal age of consent or promoting an unequal age of consent says that there's something about gay men and possibly lesbians that, um, people have to be more careful about Children have to be protected from young people, have to be protected from it, gives all those messages [00:09:30] and reinforces all those stereotypes and prejudices. So an equal age of consent for me was a really key thing. How was it for you being involved in the group that was talking with Fran Wild? I know that there were lesbians and gay men in Wellington involved in that, um how involved were you there? Um, yes. I went to the meetings that were held, Um, in late, I think. One in late 84 And then early 85 when she was thinking about it. [00:10:00] And when she was, you know, she she had seen that that other, the other, the Equality Bill was not the way to go. So, um, she was prepared to look into what she would do. Um, and and consider all options, which was really good. Um, I think the main, um I mean again, um, I felt and other lesbians said, but also quite a lot of gay men said we want the age of consent to be equal. We want you to fight for that, um, and we and the human Rights amendment. [00:10:30] It's important to have that into, um I think the main issue, though, that we had, um is that for some lesbians had been when Labour got elected in 1984. They said they were going to set up a Ministry of Women's Affairs, and they had forums around the country, an open invitation to women to come along and say what their issues were. And what happened was that, um, the, um conservative Christian women were very organised and they turned up on Mass, and they took [00:11:00] over workshops and issues that they disagreed with so abortion. So you'd have a women's forum that recommended repealing the abortion laws. You know, um, conservatively not, um, progressively. And you, um and and and, um, were anti lesbian. The some of the lesbian workshops in those forms came out with very anti lesbian recommendations, you know? So we had seen that a level of organisation that was starting to happen around social issues, that and also [00:11:30] and with labour coming in. Obviously, for those groups, there was a threat that things might be more progressive, even though the Labour Party was very divided itself because, you know, it had very conservative and, um, antis as well as the more radical social antecedents. So, um, we were really worried about friends, um, idea that it could probably go through it with a short, sharp parliamentary campaign, and we felt it was going to have to be more than that because we had seen these people in action [00:12:00] at the women's forums. And we felt that that would be mobilised, um, to an even larger degree of over homosexual law reform. So that was that was one of the things. But she wanted to try the other way. And she also wanted the bill to be secret before it was introduced. Which, you know, we that was, I guess, um, her judgement about what? Her colleagues in parliament and all that. And so, you know, we went along with that. Although, you know, we started having meetings, I think in early 85 to prepare, um, lesbians [00:12:30] for the fact that this might be coming up. So in terms of organising around, um, lesbians how how did how was that in the community around people getting on board with being active about the homosexual law reform or any of those any of the other issues? Um, were there were there divisions there? Um, yes. Some, um, lesbians had never really been active in the issue. So many of us. I mean, some lesbians had a few lesbians had been members of the homosexual Law [00:13:00] Reform Society in the late sixties, like their interest went back even though they later became lesbian feminists and and so on. Um so but some lesbians felt there wasn't an issue they wanted to be involved in. Um, and some felt that other lesbians probably shouldn't be so involved in it. Um, others, you know, didn't really were worried about how conservative the tenor of the campaign might be. And, um, about, uh, also about lesbians [00:13:30] being able to put our viewpoints across, you know, because it's so often when it's a mixed lesbian and gay thing, the gay stuff predominates. Um, but I think, uh, most sort of wanted those who decided to, like come to the meetings and that, um thought, you know, decided to give it a go and and, um, do what they could to support. And once the strength of the opposition was apparent and it was, you know, quite vile public campaign, Uh, a lot of [00:14:00] of lesbians who, you know, saw it as a different issue, and they certainly were active. They might not have wanted to be part of a particular group, but they were, you know, there were a lot of actions and confronting of people and ripping up of petitions. And, um, you know, there was a lot going on and a lot of, um, uh, activism by lesbians once that campaign was so public and so hostile, Right? So in a way, it was, um, mobilising lesbians because they were seeing this, I guess. [00:14:30] Hate thing directed at at at us. That's right, because I mean, they once they like, the Salvation Army took on the petition and took it around it Could people could turn up at your door with a petition to sign people you know, found that their parents were being put in a position and they were signing petitions. And without really thinking about the implications, um, people at work were being confronted with it, and, um, felt pressured. Uh, and so, you know, could be someone who who knew there was a lesbian [00:15:00] or gay member in their family. But it equally could be that person who who didn't want to be out at work. So it was quite it was a really difficult few months when that was all, Um so much to the fore and and also the the pro, um, petition anti homosexual law reform. Um, supporters seem to feel free to say anything about us. And and some of the, um, the MP S who opposed it felt free to say anything [00:15:30] about us. And so and it's see, it's it's quite amazing when I can't think really, of a parallel when your whole everything about you is up for public examination and any people can, you know, say really horrible things. Sullivan decided that all, um, you know that Maori gay men were victims of white, pre predatory, white gay men. Previously she'd been a supporter. And when um, I think it was Alison, Laurie [00:16:00] said to her, Why are you doing this? You know, you're you're harming us. And she said, Oh, no, it's not about you, dear. And so you know, there was this sort of a whole lot of, um, people obviously had a particular stereotype of some kind in their minds. And then some of the male MP S got completely obsessed with sodomy. And earlier on, when we were talking about the wording of the bill, I remember being involved in a discussion to say, Well, do we have to continue using sodomy? Can we call it anal intercourse? You know, and, um, and the MP S, who were part of that discussion [00:16:30] said no. That would be a step too far to change the wording. But honestly, that word on and on and on, you know, in Parliament and all the time. So I think it was It was the kind of situation where you felt you wanted to do something because the atmosphere and the papers and everything was so, um so anti it felt, really that it it was felt quite dangerous. If if if this, um, bill was lost and if that, um, whole really conservative social [00:17:00] movement was, um one then was dangerous for us and they would move on to other issues and I think you know that kind. So the personal thing of having to confront the the hostility and, um, the, um, violence was one issue. And then there was the thing. Well, what if they win? You know, it's not. It's not. This is not the only issue that they will be on about. They'll be after abortion. They'll be after other women's issues, So it's important to stand up to them. When [00:17:30] they when they were in the papers and and the media and so on about it and able to say what they wanted, Were they dragging particular people through the mud? Um, or was it more of this generalised generalised Because they did use a lot of American information and, um, slogans, uh, you know, sort of lines, argument lines, Um, and one of the things that was actually really infuriating and it and it happened before and it continued to some degree is that if there was ever like a positive viewpoint, the media's idea [00:18:00] of balance was to go and get some one of those people to be the anti, not talk about a whole range of opinions, you know, but that there was only pro homosexuality or lesbianism and these anti people and so they actually got a lot of exposure because they always had seemed like every time you spoke, there had to be an anti. Did you have his role as a media spokesperson? No, not that time I'd had in some of the earlier ones, but I didn't, um I didn't do that at all, um, I was more involved in the organising [00:18:30] and, um, both in the lesbian coalition, which, for all, you know, the fact that people had quite different ideas of how it should be being approached and what lesbians should do. Um, we did achieve a lot. So that was really, um, satisfying. And then in the gay task force and in, um, campaign for homosexual Equality, which was an activist group and organised to sometimes together with the lesbian coalition, a lot of the actual actual actions. So because the gay task [00:19:00] force was like a forum and anyone could come along, which was, I think, good. It was really good for all the communities and, um, networks. But it it was very, you know, very hard to, um, get a proposal for action from the task force through. So a there'd always be people who didn't like the idea of marches and, you know, stuff like that so sort of set itself up because people wanted to actually organise some actions and and then hopefully [00:19:30] the the gay task force, and that would support it, Which did happen. But what were the sort of achievements that you think the lesbian coalition could be credited for during that time. Well, I think, um, lesbians generally, um, including via the coalition. Um, our emphasis on the age of consent was really important because I think it was quite hard sometimes not to concede that maybe we'd have to compromise. And we just kept that up that, [00:20:00] you know, And it wasn't only us, but I think we added strength to that argument that that an equal age of consent was essential. Um, we, uh, organised coord some of the marches and events like that. Um, we organised a pamphlet, and one of the one of the issues is How do you present yourself? Like if you come from a background? Actually, when, um, you want to say, be challenging and say, you know what? What [00:20:30] you think is going on in society, how you think, um, sexism works how you think heteros works and so on. And, um and also you want to promote that lesbianism is good for women. So you're not never gonna say we don't recruit, which, which was very you know, the more conservative supporters are very keen to say No. No, we don't. You know, we? We're very safe. You and, um And then you're faced with this big outbreak where everyone's getting very agitated, and it seems like stirring [00:21:00] up a lot of homophobia among people you think might actually not be like that if they weren't being exposed to all this stuff. So we had to We took We decided to do this leaflet that basically said, we we are being lesbians. You know, we're your daughters, your mothers, your sisters, your friends, you know, we like basically we are part of you, and, um and that was a different sort of tactic from what we would have done at other times. So So that was one thing. Um, we, [00:21:30] uh we decided to go with that, but it was a bit of a step too far. When, um, a lot of the debates were about, um, were we were lesbians and gay men born that way, Or were, you know, was it a whole complex social thing? So that was very interesting. The other thing that the lesbian coalition did, um which I think was very, um, significant was that, um and it was borrowed in away from a French, um, tactic in the abortion, um, campaign [00:22:00] there. The pro abortion campaign is we organised an advertisement for for the when we had this big day of action in May, where there was a march and there had been a rally and there was a lot happening we organised, um, a advertisement and two full pages in the evening post one page, I am a lesbian or I am a gay man. And I support this and another saying I support this. And we just felt that because one of the issues that, um, Fran Wilde thought [00:22:30] at the beginning and some others went along with her judgement on it was that we should not speak for ourselves. We being all of gay men and lesbians, everybody, we should let other people speak for us. Because if people really saw us, they wouldn't like us, and they wouldn't. You know, they wouldn't support us, because if they saw what we were like, I mean, it was an amazing thing, and that was the full implication of it. We shouldn't have demonstrations because people wouldn't like it, you know. I mean, this is from where there'd been a lot of demonstrations [00:23:00] about the Vietnam War. There'd been feminist ones. There'd been anti tour ones. There were being pronuclear ones. Um, there were, you know, and and you And then you have a really powerful demonstration, like the land march. I mean, it was just crazy. And and I think the fact that there were lesbians, the lesbians in particular who got involved had been organised for a long time, you know, to some degree in our own feminist or lesbian issues in communities. And so we kind of bought that The whole thing of saying of a gay pride being really [00:23:30] important that we weren't going to be asking for anything. We were, you know, we were proud. Um, and that that, you know, all that gay liberation stuff had to be re reiterated. Um, no one was doing us a favour. It was great that Fran was putting the board the bill forward, But in a way, it was, you know, it should be changed, Um, and and also that we should be active on our own behalf, and I think that was really key. And that was why we, um, had the had the [00:24:00] various, um, demonstrations. And, um, one of the ones that I particularly enjoyed was we went to the Salvation Army and asked for our money back because it was being used against us. I mean, it was just you could never you would never get it back, and we didn't. But we had a we all in Wellington. We went along at lunchtime and queued up outside the office in Cuba Street and asked for our money back the money from where? From the collections that, you know, because the thing is they that was what was so, um, uh, damaging about [00:24:30] them taking the petition around that people were used to them coming around. They were used to them collecting many people, um, did sell the Salvation Army as basically socially benevolent, doing good things. And so and so we said, Well, we gave our money to their collections, and now we wanted it back because it was being used to fund this campaign against us. So just things like that, we just sort of turned it around because some of it is the the activist stuff of of, you know, having actions that will be people will, um, enjoy to do. [00:25:00] Um, and I mean, and but also and then there's also that kind of tradition of humour and and of camp stuff in our communities. So we wanted to build on all of that. You know, when we had a dress up picket, which I don't know, it's crazy. But outside the Citadel, um, in Webb street, the people dressed up as victims and oppressors. So I mean, it was just like trying to keep things moving, keep ourselves going, make a point and be out there, and and I think, you know, and we [00:25:30] were not going to be silenced, we were not going to have other people speak. We wanted other people to speak for us and with us, but we were not going to pull back and say they should take the lead. So amongst the the group of people who are really driving it, um, who would you say were the leaders? Well, people were leaders in different ways, I think, because you had, um, Bill Logan ended up being like the convenor and chair sort of of the gay task force. And he took that role on, and he was a spokesperson, [00:26:00] and there were people who you know, supported him. Um, Alison Laurie was a co spokesperson, and she bought a huge, um, long experience here and internationally. Um, then Tiggy, um, in stone was the, um she and Malcolm McAllister and others. Um, quite a lot of others put together the coalition in support of the bill, which was a way for other organisations to support. Um, so people sort of did really different things and then in you had, [00:26:30] like, someone like, um, Gavin Young, who'd been an activist for a very long time, and he chose that way of being part of the campaign. So and people so people kind of did the things brought their strengths to it. And this is only in Wellington. Of course there's. And we had quite a bit to do with the lesbians in Auckland because, um, there were lesbians there who organised events, too. Um, so it's it's actually hard to define. Um, who were the leaders apart from? Who were the spokespeople? Because a lot of people, [00:27:00] um, did things that were their strengths. You know, they they in the, um I mean, the person who did quite a bit of the organising of the advertisement was Alison Lash. Um, there were a lot of different people brought in the things they could do, and because they were quite experienced people, they kind of could do what they did. You know, um, the aftermath of the advertisement was really interesting. Um, because I I was wrong because I was the contact person for it. Um, I was rang at work by, um, the [00:27:30] advertising manager of the Evening Post to say they wanted to run an apology. And I said, Why? Why do you want to run an apology? And he said, because some people have rang up and said their names are the same as the people in the advertisement. And I said, There's no way we're apologising for anything. Those names are all validated by signatures. And if someone if it was true, which I doubt. But if it was true, um, then, um you know, we're not apologising for that because it's all they're all genuine people, which in [00:28:00] the in some of the advertising that, um, some of the fundamentalist groups had run, they had put in the names of people without consulting them. So it was a big thing for us that Everyone whose name was there had to have signed that they they were OK with it. And hopefully he had to have given some money towards it because it's really expensive. And so the advertising manager went away. I just said, No way. We're not apologising for anything. And we, you know, we bought the advertisement. It was all put together and honestly, and we're not There's no apology from us. [00:28:30] Yeah. So where did the money come from To help organise these things? Well, that money was people you know, gave small donations and, um, larger donations. You know, a lot of the participants gave some money. Um, then, um you know, the Victoria Club gave the lesbian coalition Didn't really have much money. I'm not quite sure how we Well, partly people did voluntary work to print things and, um, organise things, so we didn't have much of a fund, but the task force needed a fund for various [00:29:00] things. And, um, and the the social venues, I think were the main funders of that and maybe some individual, um um, benefactors, mainly gay men gave some money. The bigot busters. That's what was that about? Well, you know, Um, it was around the time of that song and movie, the Ghostbusters. So, um, idea came up. I'm not quite sure if it was who [00:29:30] I know. Peter Nolan from ABC recorded the bigot Buster song. Whether he it was his idea. I'm not sure, but, um, anyway, an idea arose, um, for, um, to make a bigot Buster song. And then that. And then people made, um, a bigot busters sweatshirts, which had, um, Norm Jones on it and a symbol, you know, like the, um, piece symbol that has or the symbol that's come to be used in a lot of things where it's a circle with a with a a diagonal [00:30:00] line across it. So that was over the front of him. Yeah, it was a good graphic. And, um yeah, so that that got to be That was sort of a, um, easy, easy kind of way of conveying that there were all these, um, people wanting to be active. And when there was a conference about that time when it was publicised, it was a conference in March and to sort of stand up to bigots, which but I mean talking about bigots is not a very political way of thinking about things because, you know, but but it was one. I mean, it was good [00:30:30] to just use every avenue. I think of opposition. Were you involved in many of the other things happening at that time? You You kind of mentioned that there was, You know, the action around the tour Springbok tour. The, um um there was the women's refuge and the sort of feminist organisations coming through. Are you busy with those as well as this? Um I had been, like, gone on the anti tour marches in 1981. And, um, [00:31:00] been, you know, to those actions, Um, mainly in the later seventies and the eighties. I was involved in lesbian groups and lesbian issues, and I supported feminist issues, but I wasn't involved in organising or anything like that. And the the Allies that came in, I guess from the union movement and so on. Um, did you have much to do with them? Um, yeah. I mean, I guess we would have a talk or, you know, see people [00:31:30] at, um at actions and so on. I was that was the coalition in support of the bill did a lot of that organising of contacting people. And and, of course, there were people who who supported it, um, and came up and offered. And there was sort of and it was really neat seeing old allies, you know, people like, um, Sir Jackson, who who was in, um um in the early seventies and and had, um, been very supportive, you know, always sort of supported law reform. Um, so it was great to see people [00:32:00] like that coming, um, coming and speaking out, because for a while it was a little bit hard to get people to speak out, but, um, And then, of course, there were wonderful women, like the group who really liked, um, creative actions themselves. So they were always there to support, um, and take part in things that were anything that was going on. Um, yeah. So it was There was a lot. I mean, yeah, I didn't talk to people in an organised way, but, um, I was often in touch with them or, um, talking [00:32:30] with them at things. How was the relationship with the, um, working with the men? So the gay women and the gay men, Um uh, having to, um, strategize and meet and so on. How how was that relationship? Well, it was really It was quite complex, because, um, there were gay men that, um, I had worked with before, And Gavin Young was a good example who was who were really politically savvy and had been involved in the [00:33:00] National Gay Rights Coalition. Um, I had a lot of respect for him. We just worked together, and that was fine. Um, there were a group of young gay men who were really, um, energetic and creative and and, um, fantastic. And, um, they And they also did really good things, like organising self-defense stuff and that because they were out and about around town and things got pretty violent. Um, sometimes there were, um quite some some of individuals got violent. And also there was [00:33:30] a group called the Catholics United for the Faith who were quite violent young men. And, um, a couple of lesbians got attacked by them, so Yeah. Anyway, so there was a really They were very creative. Um, group of young gay men. Then, um, there was the in the task, and some of them came to the task force all the time. Some of them came to There was then in the task force. There was that kind of mixture, and it was really they who who really didn't see lesbians as relevant. [00:34:00] They might have been pleased or not pleased about our support, but they didn't really think we were that relevant to it. Um, And so but, you know, so there was quite a lot of, you know, arguments about, like, we should be leading things. We should be the spokespeople, you know, gay people and lesbians. They should mention lesbians. They should not just go gay, gay, gay. They should at least say, and lesbians or somehow acknowledge lesbians were part of it. Um, so, yeah, it was, um, [00:34:30] but but also, you know, personal friendships and that were formed. And, um, I think they I think it was interesting. I think they probably ended up with quite a lot. They end. A lot of them already had quite a lot of respect for Alison because she'd been around since the sixties, even though she's lived overseas a lot of the time and then and some of the older men knew her so whether they agree with her, they knew her. They'd been young together, you know? And then they also there was a lot of respect for, [00:35:00] I think, because I came from a more political lesbian. Um, separatist focus. That wasn't they weren't They were wary of me. Um, yeah. So it was, um, someone like Pauline Simmons who was really strong. She had been around and done a lot of things in Wellington, um, over the years and been there since that very first attempt at law reform. So, yeah, it was there was sort of tricky, but I think, um, I think they I think [00:35:30] they did come to appreciate our, um, determination on the what we saw as the key things and that it was, you know, important that we not, um, give way and that we you know, we take some. You know, we take some control of the campaign as well as a as a collective. I don't mean, um, lesbians, But all of us, Yeah. What were the the points during the sort of 85 86 that stood out for you as sort of highlight moments? [00:36:00] Well, I think the introduction of the bill and by having both parts in it, that was That was a a highlight. But I wouldn't then that sort of, um some of them are, like, little victories in very adverse conditions. For example, when, um the first we decided that we couldn't just let all these, um, antibi meetings happen, we had to go to them, um, and just see what get the measure of what was happening and who the people were and stuff. And so [00:36:30] we went to the hut one, sort of turning things around. I mean, that was it's always it's always good to sort of come out to to be able to turn something on its head. And, um So that was when, um, one of the organisers, and possibly Norman Jones said, This is our meeting. You can't talk here because we were heckling. So they said, you know, we've paid for it. If you're gonna talk, you have to pay. So we just rustled up money very quickly, and, um, Alison Laurie and Bill Logan spoke and that they just [00:37:00] had to speak off the top of their heads in front of a, uh, you know, half supportive but half really hostile and really pissed off crowd. So it was quite frightening. You didn't quite know, Uh, a lot of the time. What was going to happen if things were going to get more violent? Um, because they were verbally so violent. Um, so highlights. So, you know, little, little, um, victories like that were very, um we were kept our spirits going. Um, having the marches were great. Having the week, [00:37:30] the weeks of action, and with a lot of people being involved, that was that was really good. And the other thing that we were doing all the time was broadcasting on lesbian radio, um, every every week. So that was a big part of keeping things going, getting information out because it was a, um AM frequency. So, you know, we were sort of and I'm interviewing people about what they were doing and what was happening and what was happening in other centres communicating with people in other centres because, you know, different, Really different communications, [00:38:00] photocopying things to hand out about what was coming up, like a whole different way of communicating. Um, so yeah, and the those sort of, um, liaisons. You know with other with people from other centres and and with other activists already. And I think, in a way, the sort of activism and the organising that worked in a way, they were the highlights for me. Yeah. And how how were the, um you talked about this? Um say the other centres. [00:38:30] Were you aware of action that was happening in the smaller centres, the small townships or the rural areas? Was there much going on there That you were able to support was really centred in Wellington and Auckland and Christchurch. Um, it was very centred in Wellington, in particular because of Parliament being here and because the big emphasis on on Parliament, even though, of course, um MP S go back to their electorates. The small centres that tended to be if people got in touch and that was great when they did like there was a guy who come Nelson [00:39:00] who came over quite often and talked about what was going on there. Um, there were people in Hamilton that we heard from who were doing things there. So, um and then when um, one of the marches happened one, a long time lesbian activist was then living there and she did a little march all on her own in the streets of So that was, you know, she was very pleased to just have a I think she just she had a placard and went so, you know, there's a lot of, um we sort of heard of things gradually happening around [00:39:30] the place because I guess not like now you just hear it instantaneously would have been if the networks and people phoning people or just Yeah, OK, in a way, it was more personal because you had to ring up or, you know, and have long discussions. And, you know, so that was yeah, um, the other thing that was happening and that that people did have to do in some of the smaller areas. Um, well, in big electorates, often but small towns, [00:40:00] um was because it was a conscience vote. You had to kind of win over every MP. So people were in many areas were lobbying MP S were telling them important parts of their lives, things that had happened to them in support of, um, both parts, but especially the human rights stuff. Um, and some MP S who should have been supporters who probably were supporters but who were worried about their reelection. Um, ran like a referendum [00:40:30] in their electorate. Some said they would be committed to the result. Others said they would be guided by it. But that did mean like there was a bit more work to be done in various electorates. So rather than having a party supporter at the bill, um and and because I mean many, obviously most of the support did come from the Labour Party and many Labour Party MP S were supportive. But having to do all this other work just to make sure you had enough MP S to support the votes was that was a whole lot of extra. And [00:41:00] a lot of people did that around the country where they, you know, that was one thing they could do contact their local MP S. Can you remember what you were doing on the night of the third reading When, when when it went through, Um, I was actually at home. I think, um, I don't know whether I thought it mightn't happen or because everyone else, of course, now says that they were sure it would happen, But, um, yeah, I just didn't I think, you know, by that time we were I was getting pretty tired, and, um so I didn't go to Parliament that night. [00:41:30] Um, so I heard it on the radio, which was and it was just It was amazing. It was, like, you know, just hard to believe that, um, it was all over, um, a bit nervous about what might be the reaction if there what sort of a backlash there might be. Um, I mean, we knew from the public opinion polls, which is, you know, only one gauge. But we did know that public support in general was gradually creeping up. Each time the Hale poll was run, there was a few more points and was up in the sixties, at [00:42:00] least. So, you know, we I hoped, but I was worried. I remember being a bit worried, a bit nervous about what? Now, you know, But I was very pleased it was, and it was very good to have got it through, despite the loss of the, um, part two. But to have got that through and to have the age of consent of 16 So I was here at home, and after it did go through What? What did you feel? Had changed. Did you Did you hear from people [00:42:30] about, um, how it affected their lives or I did, Um, And, you know, you heard really varying things because I remember meeting two lesbians who were just coming out during the campaign and getting together, and they were barely aware of it. And I just thought, that's amazing that they were living their lives and they didn't really plug into all this that was going around them on around them. Others you know, who had had a really rough time. Um, I think politically, though, I kind of felt, um [00:43:00] it was almost the end of something. And I know there are a whole lot of other things happening now, and I'm really, you know, I really support all the politics that are that are going on now, but it was like, um, we're sort of settled for that, you know that all that, um, those broad ideas of gay liberation and lesbian feminism and that that really wanted to challenge things that wanted, um, the hetero sexism not to [00:43:30] rule and and certainly sexism to be dented. Um, and and, you know, and look at the how that related to all the other things that classism and racism because I think one of the problems was, of course, apart from our you know, we tend to sort of blame ourselves in our politics. But what was, you know, the the social changes were happening, which was, um, you know what? You might almost call, um, some people would call moral. I don't really like that word, but I can't think of another at the moment that look at changes, some changes, [00:44:00] like law reform or some changes for women. But we totally lost the economic battle. And so these other huge social changes were happening that were meaning society was getting much more stratified. Um, people, you know, losing their jobs. Um, the whole restructuring thing was happening, um, the, um and and there was much more of an emphasis on the individual, not the collective or the communal. And I think that was also a big [00:44:30] thing in how the politics changed that we didn't kind of go back to OK, we've done that. Now what? What is what are the broader social things we wanted to achieve rather than the sort of rights the whole thing got narrowed down to a rights based agenda, which is important. And we always thought it was important. But it was kind of like leaving off all those bigger social issues that we wanted to sort of work out ways to disrupt and to have questioned. So, um, But I mean, I think mostly I like quite a few people, [00:45:00] sort of had a, you know, were had a big lie down. Almost. It was so it was very tiring. You know, it was really tiring. It was a lot of energy. A lot of thought, you know. And you were kind of on your toes for most of that time, Especially that first, you know, march to the end of 85 you really had to be on your toes for every little implication and every move. Everything that was happening and work out how to counter things. And and some people, you know, like, um I mean, Bill [00:45:30] Logan basically spent his time doing that. Alison Laurie spent her time doing that. Um, I did work full time as well, so I wasn't, um, but I was certainly talking to people during the day and that because things have come up, you know, um and yeah, it was it was a big effort for but it was good. I mean, it's certainly well worth it. And I mean, it's hard to believe it took so long from the first efforts here in sort of 62 63 when gay men started talking about it, Um, [00:46:00] that it's, uh, you know, it was good. It's It's kind of one of those things you wish you hadn't had to do in a way, though, because it was some, you know, fighting for something that should never have been there. You know, it's a little bit rather than moving into something more constructive. But it was fantastic that we, um that we did manage to do it. And I do think, um, that we did stop that whole moral right movement. Um, even though it was kind of interesting because one of the things that came up when Alison Laurie was overseas [00:46:30] getting support over there because one of the there was a day of action overseas as well. People picketed New Zealand embassies and Salvation Army, um, premises in other countries, which was fantastic. Um, Canada, Um, Holland, um, Denmark, You know, Australia. So it was That was really good. Anyway, those people kind of drew the links about, you know, the anti nuclear movement. And, um, because the right wing people who were feeding into the stuff here, they were very, [00:47:00] um um, you know, they were involved in right wing activities across the board in the States, not just religion. They were anti-american foreign policy, um, being liberalised at all and stuff like that. So it was, you know, there were a lot of, um there was a lot of connections between the issues, things that were happening here under the government, in terms of foreign policy and social stuff. Um, while at the same time, they were just going ahead with that whole economic agenda. So it was kind of like contradictions there [00:47:30] so that the world was watching. In a way, I think they were because I think for those sort of really, really, you know, fundamentalist groups in the States they liked the idea that they could influence a country, because in the states, the laws are, um you know, they were It was a lot of it state by state. And so they were quite keen to, um, to work in a country. A law that was a whole country. So, um, and they and they, you know, the people came over here and they put some money [00:48:00] in they. I mean, some of the things they did were really counterproductive, Which is good for us, you know, the or the guy who, um, helped them organise the presentation of the petition. That really put a quite a lot of people off. Who because he sort of had that whole Nuremberg rally. Look. So things like that, um, didn't work for them for But we also had to counter because people didn't realise that a lot of the stuff they were saying The horror. Really nasty anti gay stuff. A lot of that came from the American publications, [00:48:30] Not all of it. I mean, there are no American publication. Said we should be all put on Gito Island or, you know, all the other absurdities that came out. But a lot of the sort of underlying things came from American right wing publications and church, mostly religious Yeah, yeah, mostly religious. So that, um when um yes, talk another, um, debate that we had. I mean, I I've mentioned the kind of debates about the level of activism. How [00:49:00] out we could be speaking about ourselves. The sort of, um, born that way. Debate. Um, there were there were a lot, actually, we think of a lot of interesting debates and one of the things that came, of course, because it was quite a big thing. Um, overseas at that time was about outing people, especially outing opponents. And, um, we had actually had quite a serious talk about that because there were people who were being who were anti. Um, no, we didn't. I don't think we [00:49:30] knew anything about some of the main anti leaders, but we did know a few things about anti people, and we're pretty sure that they had same sex experiences, if not more. And so we There was a big debate for us, and in the end, we decided no, because we thought, given the whole, um, atmosphere of homophobia that just feeds into it because it's kind of acting like it's negative. It's really hard to get across that complexity that the negative thing is they're being so hypocritical and that being, you know, gay or [00:50:00] having same sex experience themselves, they are attacking and damaging us. It's really hard to get that across, so it would be satisfying for us, but it wouldn't have achieved good things politically, so we flagged it. But, yeah, there were many, many issues. I think that when you're running a big campaign like that, you have to deal with all the time. And it's really interesting to think of what they were at that point, because that those sort of things, if you did decide to go down that track, that could really just blow up in your face that [00:50:30] it could blow up in our face and it could. But it could just end up being negative for everybody. As and the person, um, you know, we obviously, but it is infuriating when people are actively working against you and you, you know, you know that it's because of how they feel about themselves or something they're frightened of and themselves. If, um, if you're looking at, um, the homosexual law reform and how it's opened the door for change [00:51:00] for sort of rainbow communities. Now, what would you say were the main things that came from it? Uh, well, I think it was, um, of course, made it much easier to push for, um, human rights, which was a bit of a double edged sword for lesbians because there's good things about that. But also meant, for example, two lesbians living together would have to go to a married benefit if they were beneficiaries, they wouldn't have two single benefits. You know, there were tradeoffs. Um, it, um the [00:51:30] passage of the homosexual law reform bill, I think. Definitely, Um, uh meant that New Zealand could address HIV aids much more constructively. I mean, it wasn't perfect or anything, but, um, it could move into a more constructive phase. And that was another good argument for it. Especially to MP S to having law reform. So that, um, you know, safe sex education could be done and all well done and all that, um, And then I guess what I was saying before, [00:52:00] I think it's the legis. Legislative changes have all been good, but it kind of put us on that track of legislative changes, but yeah, So it did It definitely opened the door for that. I mean, I think it and it definitely meant, um, made things easier for gay men. Um uh, and for lesbians as well. And that we were, you know, affected by people just seeing as all as one. And, um so I think for gay men, it's a bit more relaxed. Um and so, [00:52:30] um I mean, I do think the continuities are important, though, because, you know, seeing it all is a very long process rather than that one little time it has seems to me often, um, that people, um, see the whole homosexual law reform and gay liberation and all kinds of things as only those two years that there's this huge long history beforehand. And there's our you know, which I suppose Chris Rickles book shows There's all these cultures and and Alison Laurie's thesis and, you [00:53:00] know, publications that show that there's been communities and, um, same sex communities, networks, relationships forever. And this is just our sort of manifestation of them. So it's really important not to take those two years out of their context. So in the years afterwards, you went on a bit, had a bit of a rest relative. I imagine I did keep on doing the lesbian radio programme. That sort of was probably the main thing I did. [00:53:30] And, um, I was involved in some other, um, lesbian activities and that that helped after I organising lesbian studies conferences, Um, which were quite successful in the nineties. So there was Yeah. So there's been a, um I've done other things, and now I'm mainly my main involvement is lesbian and gay archives. So, um, I I find it hard to imagine that I could have done all that and work full time that you know, that whole period, because it was really intense. [00:54:00] Um, and when we were when I was younger, like in this early in the mid seventies, things it was very intense, too. We really got into things and organise things, but yes, so that's the kind of thing that you can't always sustain your whole life. Doing it at that pace with without that change in legislation, would things like the lesbian studies conference. I mean, it's that legislation actually helped make lesbians more visible in terms of the debate and the and [00:54:30] so on. That was out there, Do you Do I think I think what happened was, um that there was a huge public discussion that, um, hadn't been planned for. And we probably hadn't thought it would be that huge. And it was huge. Um, and in a way, the fact of that, um, open things up and we won. So you have to have the two things you have to have. The big public discussion and the fact that the bill was passed and at least part one was passed [00:55:00] Those two things together, I think, made for quite a lot of changes. You know, having said that, of course, there's still all the issues that we hear about now that, um, for both for, you know, across the board, Really, but particularly for young people. And I think increasingly for old people. But it's Yeah, it definitely was a big change. And, um, and a a relief.
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