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Uh, And, uh, So anyway, um, welcome. I'm sure there'll be a few more people coming and join us soon. Um, my name is Grant Jones. Um, I'll be talking a little bit. I'll introduce myself just a little bit further on in the programme. But the first of all, I just wanted to just sort of give you an oversight in terms of what it is. So the first part, I just want [00:00:30] you to be aware of the diversity, um, and the spread of people in the Pacific. Um, just one correction here. It's no longer Western Samoa. It's been Samoa since 1997 or 1998. And this map was published off the, uh, in 1997. So I wanted you to be aware of the diversity. See, as you can see up there, the with, uh, the states of Micronesia. [00:01:00] Those five states here, ranging from the multitudes here of, uh, Polynesia, Samoa, American Samoa, Cook Islands, Tokelau, Tonga, uh, New Caledonia, and then Melania, uh, Fiji, Solomons, Um, and the largest territory Papua New Guinea. So if we just sort of, uh, look at this, this gives a little bit more. Um uh, information here. [00:01:30] Um, you can see the spread here of, um, French Polynesia in Tahiti. A large spread of islands. The Cook Islands. OK, going from Rarotonga, right up to, uh, Mana in the far north, which is almost four hours where this guy comes from. It's almost four hours in a small plane or five days by boat. So I just want you to to be aware of. And then up here, we've got, uh, Nui Easter Island, which [00:02:00] is part of Chile, which I had the privilege of going to back in in in 2008. So I put this on just so that you can see the the, um, the diversity of the actual islands. Um, right now, this is, um I just wanted to just sort of clarify this will help to sort of introduce myself. Um, my early teaching was actually in the, um, in the Cook islands. Um, and that [00:02:30] really gave me a good introduction to Pacific culture. Because after that, I travelled, uh, fairly extensively through, uh, New Caledonia, Fiji and Vanuatu. And then that's set, um, the scene. So since then, I've travelled extensively through about nine territories And when I travel, I try to make a point of meeting with people irrespective of their sexuality but and and and, um, talking in the country, concerned [00:03:00] with the more visible presence of of the transgender and so on. So this is this all together helps me to formulate some of my opinions. Now, I'm still actively involved with this, um, this association, um, there. And, um, that's enabled me to touch base either by email or phone with, um, a large number of territories. 18. So I've got a feeling for what it's like right up in in Micronesia to, um, the [00:03:30] smaller islands here. Plus, the other thing that I also do is I always listen to the, uh, Pacific news each night on, um on Radio New Zealand on the Radio New Zealand News. And if things come up, I look at it on the website, and if there are things that I want to get a bit more information, I go back to the primary source like if it's on the cook is to cook on in times, you know, or someone on paper, over to paper or the Fiji Times or [00:04:00] so on, because that helps to give me, um, a better awareness of, um of what's actually happening. Right. So, in addition, um, I've had a major role with, uh uh, the International Federation of Physical Education and the Oceania Group for developing territories with organising a conference here. So that brought me close to the the realities of of of things, right. And in addition, I have [00:04:30] a, um, a Cook island partner. Right now, if I can just explain from here on, I'm gonna put up some charts. One of them will be a United Nations, uh, free and equal chart that was distributed to workshop earlier, Uh, which is quite, uh, which I think is very useful. Um, so I I plan to do it in two parts one to show, um, the huge range as far as for laws and acceptance or otherwise [00:05:00] of human rights in the developing territories in the Pacific. Then the second stage, which is where I'm gonna really invite, uh, comments, uh, and involve discussion, and especially from people from the, um, Pacific Sexual Diversity Group and others to contribute from their experience. When I go through the the the different groups that are actually represented, um, which are are represented here. [00:05:30] And then the next part that I I would sort of come to is in terms of change. And that, I think, is the biggest difficulty is is getting even though there is great changes happening with the Pacific territories getting them to actually make change. So that, uh, um in terms of illegal sex M to M, which is in many territories, still considered illegal, [00:06:00] liable for terms of imprisonment. Although it is very, very, really unfortunate isn't, um is is is is what are the factors that are holding this back? What factors might promote change, right? And at various parts of my presentation, I'm not gonna talk for the whole time. I'm gonna pause to give you people a chance to maybe make some comments, um, and and and such like, Yeah, [00:06:30] I sort of mentioned that I sort of formulate by talking to people. So, uh, my partner and I, um, just under two years ago, we were on a cargo boat going from, um, Tahiti around the remote coral atolls in the tuamotu Group. And so, uh, on the left here, these two lesbian women, um, on the three days they were on the boat had an amazing discussion. And one of the things that transpired was [00:07:00] their full acceptance not only by their family but the wider community. Um, obvious sexuality in the nature of their relationship, which I thought was very pleasing. Right. So you know, II, I know there's been a lot of criticism levied in some Pacific territories because of the way the laws are for same sex people. It's not all bad. So that was my partner. Uh, uh uh there while we're talking. So that's the [00:07:30] reason why I actually put that on. So we talk about the diversity. OK, so this is a cultural show that we had as part of a, uh, a conference in in in Fiji. Um, and I, I think the thing we need to be aware of if we look at the vastness of a country, something like 300 different islands. All right, OK. And we're looking at Papua New Guinea, a population of 6.5 million, which is greater than the population of New [00:08:00] Zealand and more than twice the size. And then you look at some of the smaller places like the Tokelau Islands. Only about 1300 people spread on three small coral atolls. So I'm just telling you this to make you aware of the, um the, um the diversity All right. I talked before about, um, the the huge range of distance. So this was when with my partner, and I, uh, back [00:08:30] to his home island of in the Northern Cooks. All right, um, and just to show you some idea of the diversity of things that happen before we, we sort of get into. So the other thing is, right now, this particular chart here Excellent. It is current. And this is from the United Nations, uh, group, which is called free and easy. Now, this particular group has been going [00:09:00] for a number of years. Um, it's a United Nations group concerned specifically with human rights and inspecific the laws relating to, um to, uh, gay lesbian trans, um, into sex and and so on. So if you sort of look at this here, um, I've got two charts on this and basically, with most of the Polynesian countries, um, you'll find that laws on same [00:09:30] sex, it's illegal, right? Others you'll find um, it is different, but the important thing that I want to come to, uh, later on is why it is in some territories, we have, um, same sex activity being fully legal, others being illegal. All right, so I'll just move on to the next. [00:10:00] So let's look at, um, here, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Solomons, Tonga, Tokelau, Tuvalu, and and, um, Vanuatu. Alright, So there have been certainly, um some changes now, the the the the the other thing is that, um the next set of slides that I show gives a bit more information. [00:10:30] It's from Wiki Encyclopaedia, and I've always been suspicious of Wiki Encyclopaedia of the accuracy. But when I checked out a lot of the data on the next set of slides which gives a bit more information on this, it does reconcile pretty closely to what's happening because things in the Pacific Yeah, I do, So yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, you're right. So they would you like to explain how [00:11:00] the acceptance of human Rights do? You can tell them that? No. No, I wanted to say that since the crimes act in 2013. 50 actually legalises, same sex same sex, the same partner, the same same same gender sexual connection, sexual connections between consenting individuals, Right and and I. I will read what it says in section 50. It says sexual connection defined sexual connection means a connection occasion by the penetration [00:11:30] of the genitalia or the anus of any person by any part of the body of any other person or any object held or manipulated by any other other person, or a connection between the mouth or tongue or any part of the body of any person, any part of the or any of any other person and a continuation of that sexual connection. But it it it is very clear that you know that that that I don't blame them because this is recent as 2013. Yeah, but there's still no thank [00:12:00] you for raising that. That should be corrected here because other stuff that I've read, um, has, uh, thank you for sharing that. And I really mean that because I was aware of what happened two years ago that there was acceptance of human rights. But other documentation I read said that it didn't go far enough, but you've actually cited the evidence. When did that actually become law? But was it 2013 where they did actually change that law? Yeah. [00:12:30] Yeah, well, I think that the the message needs to get out to the wider thing there and also in the same act, um wiped out the crime of female impersonations that can now dress in the manner that they want. And, um, it it it it. But the the the thing that we're trying to try and sort out is that in one part of the same act, it also criminalises it still criminalises sodomy. So that's what I say one part of the act that allows [00:13:00] us the act of sodomy, which you know for for our purposes. It's legal, right? This is where the ambiguity has come in because can you see what I mean? This is why it's probably recorded like that because sodomy is still declared. See it illegal in some more right. It's legal as a sexual connection as a sexual connection, but on its own. Hey, thanks so much. And I'll certainly be bringing the pa some people further on when it comes to why these rules, um, are are more or [00:13:30] less for saying right. OK, let's look at legal rights as so this gives a little bit more information. Um, I checked this against free and equal. That's the United Nations stuff there. So this here also gives some, um, uh, very useful information you can sort of see. Especially over the last 10 years, there have been quite a few changes here. You can see this with [00:14:00] New Caledonia, and we'll come to that soon. How some of them really abide by it. And I'm just gonna scroll down, um, a little more. So if we move further down to, um, Fiji? Um, yeah, they have changed their illegal status in the last six years. Uh, yon we mentioned. And, uh, PNG Papua New Guinea and and and Solomons, um, are still fairly entrenched in [00:14:30] maintaining the status quo. OK, there's certainly been some, uh, some movement there, uh, in terms of abolishing the law that they had with, uh, male sex. Now, the other comment I want to make is that as far as I can trace, um, same sex females has never been part of the agenda or the laws. From what I've seen, in the Pacific in the last few years. I don't know [00:15:00] of any territory now, which, um, makes same sex, uh, between two women. Illegal. Right. OK, let's move on. Right. Let's look at Polynesia. Um, this is an interesting one. because American Samoa is actually part of, um USA. Um, yeah, um, as an overseas territory, [00:15:30] um, Easter Islands Nui, which I mentioned before, um, a small island volcanic island. About 3000 people. I have the pleasure of a stopover on a flight from Tahiti to Chile. I was stopping over there, and you can see that, uh, their rights go right across. Um, cook Islands. Um, they are still back in. There's been no change at all. Um N a, [00:16:00] uh, which is self governing with free association within New Zealand, as is the Cook Islands. They made the choice in terms of, uh, N a, um, becoming same sex legal since 2007 pit islands. There's a reason why I mentioned that. Why do you think a small island of about 51 of the most isolated Pacific territories in the world should have [00:16:30] ticks right through? Why do you think that would be. So the question is, why is it that in terms of the legality of sex recognition of same sex relationships, marriage and all the rest of it, they took all the boxes for pit islands? Only 50 odd people. Why do you think this would be so? Well, that's one way of looking. But I'll tell you, [00:17:00] they didn't have a choice. Pardon? Well, I was gonna suggest that after the incident of all the child molestation case they had there, perhaps they were trying to increase their reputation on such drugs. Yeah. No, actually, the reason was that they have a choice. They're regarded as an overseas territory of the United Kingdom. And like it or lump When the United Kingdom brought in, um, the ruling on on on same sex marriage in 2015 pit can islands had to actually follow [00:17:30] it. So that's a very reason why I've actually, um, left it down there. So it's not just an island. It's some insignificance of 50 people that, uh, got justified bad publicity because of, um, behaviour. Um, with a small number, um, a few years ago. Ok, let's just sort of, um, move on through here. So Samoa, we've, um we've actually, um, talked about and, you know, it's [00:18:00] it's it's to the credit of Samoa that they are making some rather positive changes. OK, now, But I think it is also kind of another discussion about the the relationship between homosexuality and sodomy. Yeah, um, because culturally from our own perspective, and you'll find this very, very true in the Pacific as well. Just because we allow same sex activity, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't mean that because [00:18:30] sodomy has a very special place in our culture. It's It's a very special place for us as a to our relationship or the the here, between us and our sisters. Sure. Do you know what I mean? It's It's a really, really, really difficult thing for for governments to try and and opt our sodomy for the protection of the women. More so than anything else. Sure. As you can see in the case, they've legalised. They've effectively legalised, um, sodomy for saying consensual. Same sex, Sure, but you know, they've kept that part [00:19:00] in the in the in the end, which is you know, at some stage, somebody is going to test that in a in A in a court case. And so sorry, I don't understand it legalised sodomy for same sex relationship. But it didn't legal legalise sodomy for intersexual relationship. No, no, no for any kind of relationship. So any person the wording of the act in Section 50 is any person, right? It It defines a sexual connection between consensual kind of sexual connection between [00:19:30] two adults so it could be male, female, male, male, female, male, female, female doesn't really matter as long as it's consensual and you know, they, they they follow the the the the What's descriptive in the act. It's a sexual connection. It's a lawful sexual connection where, where where force is introduced, then it's a sexual violation, which is different to to thank you for that and the other comment I just made whilst you've seen here that, um, in some, uh, with a number of territories about where same [00:20:00] sex is illegal and liable for terms of imprisonment. I only know of one case in the last few years, and that was actually in Fiji about 10 or 12 years ago, um, where they actually charged a same sex couple. Um, a rather unfortunate, um, situation. But even Fiji have made some very positive progress from there. Now, I just want to make reference here to, um to the, uh, uh, the [00:20:30] Tokelau Islands. They are really part of the, uh, part of, uh, New New Zealand. They're not self governing. They're not independent. The office for to happens in New Zealand, they the New Zealand government. As far as their relationship with the, um with the the total hours is they've really got self government. They have made good on them. They have changed the law without any pressure from New Zealand. OK, [00:21:00] and I think that's important. Even though there's only 12 or 1300 people in the total islands spread between three coral A, which is overnight on a boat between each right. Ok, let's look at, um let's Let's look at Tonga and Tuvalu, Right? Um, they've made pretty well, no change. Um, at all As far as, uh, their laws are concerned. Very pleased. [00:21:30] Look at Wallace and Fortuna. You can see that they have made great changes in the last few years. Why do you think that might be so? They are an isolated, uh, small group of islands. They don't have a tourist industry geographically isolated with just a flight from That's exactly it. That's exactly it. They are a French territory, right? And I'm gonna come to this [00:22:00] in the next set of slides here. OK, So if we look at the territories where, um, there are some very positive things that are happening So we can see why is it that since 2013, those three French territories have made changes to all of these things, including same sex marriage? Why, [00:22:30] OK, I'll tell you. Tahiti and French Polynesia and New Caledonia, they each have two seats in the French Senate. So they didn't have a choice when the law was changed in France. On these issues here, they had to follow suit Wallace and have one seat in the French Senate. So that is why they complied, which is really interesting [00:23:00] now, in terms of the US requirements Since 2015, those three territories there Guam, Northern Marianas and Federated States of Micronesia. Uh, in addition, they they declared the legality of male sex some years ago. But in terms of the human rights issues, the human rights issues in terms of same sex marriage and, um, and that sort of thing. Um they've [00:23:30] been forced to follow the US requirements with the which the president of USA brought in last year. Right? So I think that is quite significant. And the next territory which I'll just scroll down. I've already spoken about the UK requirements in terms of in terms of pit count islands. Right now, if we look at the other New Zealand territories, which is Cook islands, which [00:24:00] is self governing and free association with New Zealand, the same as as, uh as a is free association, they have the right to make their own laws and so they've still got a little way to go to ours. Constitutionally, with their relationship with New Zealand, they should be obliged to follow New Zealand laws. But, um, the Foreign office does actually allow them [00:24:30] a degree of self government, but it is to their credit that they've made, um, some definite changes. So, I, I think this is a very positive slide here, where they are following the same same sex, um, the same same sex requirements which happens in their their territory concerned that the United States of America American. I'm coming to that. I'm coming [00:25:00] to that, Uh, because that's a really interesting one. In fact, this follows very soon the I'm gonna I haven't forgot. I've actually got a slide on American Samoa Now here we are. These are territories where the GL BT laws are not observed because of societal expectations. Now, um, the reason for this will be quite apparent to the people from the Pacific territories. [00:25:30] So at this stage, I'd just be interested to know if the other non Pacific people are aware of what this might be in all of the above territories, same sex male activities with the clarification of what I said about Samoa, uh may result in the term of prisonment but is rarely enforced. There's no recognition of civil union, uh, relationships or same sex marriage. Why do you think that might [00:26:00] be? Why? What is it that the culture of the customs that is holding that back? Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. The what, exactly? The the um the the The Church. And I think one of the things and statements that I want to make is that with most of the Pacific territories. The church is a very strong and respected part of [00:26:30] the territory's culture. Some more. You agree with that? Fiji, right? It's a very strong part of the culture, far stronger than what we have here. Why is it that the church is so strong in the all of these territories and in most of the Pacific compared with Australia and New Zealand, [00:27:00] we have church in New Zealand. Yeah, exactly. Colonisation. And I think this is an important part of our history to sort of understand that colonisation in the Pacific became began in the latter part of the 18th century. Um uh, in in Papua New Guinea and also in French Polynesia and then from the 18 twenties on they went to the Cook Islands. They went to Samoa [00:27:30] and right through the rest of the Pacific, closely followed by the missionaries from the Roman Catholic Church. These Pacific territories all had their own religious and spiritual followings prior to the development of colonisation and the bringing of Christianity. Right? So this is why. And it's just that in the Pacific, um, [00:28:00] there's AAA large respect for the church, um, people in especially the Polynesian countries. Um most people, um, follow the Christian thing of going to church at least once a day on a Sunday and respecting things of other than essential work. No loud music, no fishing, no swim, and so on. Although that doesn't apply to tourists. So this does have the effect. And ministers will justify [00:28:30] the fact of, um, homosexuality or same sex marriage as being contrary to the teachings in the Bible. Because I've had this discussion with both a Samoan minister and also a minister, so their teachings are based on the Bible. Now, I'm not being judgmental about it, but I'm just saying so this is one of the major factors in terms of a culture as to why these laws are there. [00:29:00] OK, let's just does anybody want to make a comment on this? Because I wanna make this with any of the I would like to ask a question. Um, I read a lot, uh, about the African region that, um, because of the western country are moving towards marriage equality or, uh, same union at least, um, the African region. There seems to be a backlash of, uh, countries that instead announce even [00:29:30] stronger punishment for for same sex behaviour in in Africa. And starting from this to ask you that that research and look at the Pacific Island can you find a similar partner or, um not not at all, Because the Pacific what is is is rather unique because this is where the London Missionary Society, and also from the UK came now, in terms of Africa. [00:30:00] I'm not I haven't really made any study, um, of that there. But I do know that in the case of Somalia in Nigeria, um, their laws are are based on on on on the Muslim faith, you know? So, yeah, so there is It is a degree of aspect coming in there with Africa, but I'd rather not comment on Africa because I haven't really studied it. How would any of the people from the Pacific like to substantiate [00:30:30] what I've said or challenge what I've said in terms of colonisation, missionary influence, the power of the church in terms of the the culture. So you can't really challenge it because it is a fact. Do you think you want to challenge What? No, no, no. I mean, you're You're absolutely right. It is a fact of life. But, um, what's more dangerous for us [00:31:00] is, um, because we live the lived experience of LGBT communities within the Pacific context is that we before all this church and everything came to our country, we had our or foundation of. We were a part of our culture, right? So we we hide behind that, um, against the onslaught of Christianity and I'll, I'll give you an example. Um [00:31:30] um are are deeply entrenched into the extended family in Samoa. You find that in the rural communities in the city communities, they're very much a part of the extended family. They go to work, they provide, they produce, they assist financially. So they're very much a part of the community. So when the So when the church the these church Expecta expectations are forced on, the culture states that we are a part [00:32:00] of a community and it is the community that allocates to us what rights we have. If you want to be a woman, you can act as a woman and stay home in your in your and look after the elderly, cook for the elderly and look after the Children. The Children. Exactly. If you wanna be if you wanna You wanna be a man, Great. Pick up a machete and let's go to the plantation and plant some. Tara, you know, for us, it's it's it is our community, which is the foundation of our history as as as [00:32:30] as LGBTI in the Pacific. That's that's what we rely on that cushion us from this. This all this this this, um, church bullshit. And I mean, no offence to Ken because I know Ken studying theology. But for me personally, I don't understand why one group of citizens in my country should tell me how to live because I in a different manner one of us, one of the sins that many people don't [00:33:00] know is working on Sunday. If we enforce working on Sunday, if we enforce working on Sundays, every Pacific nation that relies on tourism will shut down. You know, all those tourists that come in won't get their laundry done, won't get their room cleaned, won't get their food served, You know what I mean? And and and and there there in lies, the issue, because it's money, you know, it's all about money and and we don't earn any money. That's why we [00:33:30] we I know, I know. And And what you say applies in other territories. It certainly applies in the with the, uh and and and Tonga. And so it goes on. And thank you for sharing that because a lot of people have been brought up in a Western culture. Don't understand how colonisation I'm not being critical. I'm just being objective. And the impact of a church is a very powerful institution. [00:34:00] Um, which I don't think governments want to really take on too readily. All right, let's just sort of move on. And thanks for the comments that are shared. Now, this one here was shown before. So in terms of human rights, and I haven't forgotten about American Samoa, I've got a slide on that. Uh, this is bringing up something from YouTube. This is from the United [00:34:30] Nations. Free and easy, right? Comments on that. Yeah. Come in. So it tell me here's your chance to comment on. I think the the thing that stood out for me was [00:35:00] the thing that stood out for me with that, uh, YouTube video clip is the fact that a a variety of young people coming out stating their request for human rights. But I think the other thing that's significant is the minister from the Methodist Church in Fiji, and I'm right that the Methodist Church is has the biggest following Is that right in Fiji for people coming [00:35:30] out in support of human rights as well as that the secretary general of the United Nations? So there are some very positive things that are sort of happening. And the United Nations group, um free and easy. Um does have a fair bit of respect, but the way they seem to operate in the Pacific is in a fairly low key role. Doing things. Talking to the key ministers [00:36:00] in the various countries. Would anybody like to make any comment on It's It's not. I don't think it's a group. It's a it's a campaign. Uh, it was started probably 2014 by the then, uh, high Commissioner of the High. What's the name? High Commissioner of Human Rights. Uh, Napa. Now it changed, but at that time it was her. And, um so [00:36:30] it's not a media organisation. It's more, Um yeah, a campaign from the United Nation. And it was um it was really coming from the wave of all of the resolution of 2010 in all of the committee that raised in 2011, 2012 at the United Nations. So it's probably it's part of a bigger wave of LGBTI issue within the united [00:37:00] nation of the past except that free and is a centre of the United Nations that is specifically concerned with human rights. And it it has a focus specifically, you know, on the Pacific, Um, there is a second video, uh, clip too. Um, that I had, but that that which was shown before thank you for that. Any other comments right [00:37:30] now? I spoke before How the United Nations territories of Northern Marianas um Guam, um, fully complied. Um, the Marshall Islands, Uh uh, because of their constitutional connection to the USA, went first, weren't forced to comply with, um, the change of constitution [00:38:00] on, um, same sex marriage, which came in the USA. Now, this is the American situation. So in American Samoa, they undecided as to whether they comply with the 26 ruling. So it's now with the American, um, the American Samoa. They're not US citizens. And they are. This is the basis of their argument that they'll be having in the Supreme Court from what I've read, but they're rather nationals, and so they want the the Supreme Court [00:38:30] to to decide on that. Um, so other comments that I've read that have been published in the American Samoa papers call for just solutions based on love and respect for other people. But they certainly don't give it any endorsement towards moving towards same sex re, uh, unions or even same sex marriage. So let's see American Samoan position. So that apparently [00:39:00] comes up later this year. So if they lose the case, American Samoa, from what I've read, will be forced to comply it. Somebody brought up American Samoa. Does somebody want to add anything to what I've said? This may well change, um, after the elections by the government elections. Because at the moment, American Samoa has a Republican representative from Megan Samon, the Senate, and, [00:39:30] um, there the the Republican Party is very conservative, and so this may well change the next presidential election. It could well do. It could well do, except, you know, just in response to that the Supreme Court decision. Yeah, the the, um the the election. American elections are in November. I think this has been scheduled for August. So it'll be interesting to see if if it comes [00:40:00] through in August if American Samoa are going to go to expense, if they can appeal, So that's just, um, I, I think a fairly a fairly interesting one. So the reason why I actually showed that is to is to show that, um, with the church, as I've said before, is a very, very powerful group, Um, in terms of, [00:40:30] um, in some cases, hinging on the holding back of human rights on a lot of GL BT I issues. Right? Um, except where it's been thrust on the country by law change. Um, yeah, so I think that's interesting. Now there's one other comment I wanted to make. I've always been interested to know why in French Polynesia [00:41:00] as, uh, because I've been there six times in Tahiti. But Sundays are just like a Sunday here. They're not like a Sunday in the in the in the Pacific. So what actually happened was they were colonised by, uh, the London Missionary Society in the late 18th century. And what actually happened in the 18 sixties after, um, which was soon after France annexed, which is what they did, Um, took over, [00:41:30] um, Tahiti and French Polynesia. Within 20 years, they kicked the missionaries out. So, um, I, I can I can find nothing to support what I say. But my belief is that because the the missionaries ceased to exist in Tahiti and French Polynesia from 18 60 on, um, their respect and the numbers that are attending church have dropped considerably, and they don't follow the same values that [00:42:00] the rest of Polynesia does. Any comments, right? This year, this was just a small church that I took in the in, um, French Boones just over two years ago. Now, now this is is is is really interesting. Um, the theme of the 2015 Tonga Conference was our [00:42:30] voices, our communities, our rights, advancing human rights. Right. And that was the theme of the Of the Conference with the Pacific Diversity Group. It was reported in the Tonga Times that about 70 attended the comment of the the the conference which was being hosted. This is last year, remember? by the Pacific, um, sexual diversity network in Tonga right [00:43:00] now. Um, there were a number of people a small number of people, uh, Tongans, uh, who were gay activists who were concerned, as the people in Tonga were with the actual law change. So this upset some of the locals, and that is the banner that actually appeared quite derogatory, isn't it? [00:43:30] So that actually made Radio New Zealand news and and, uh, all all the, uh, all the rest of it. And I was quite amused when, um roger, uh, it is Roger the from To Pardon. Oh, Johnny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, made the positive comment about having a, um uh, you know, a meeting in Tonga next year to in in involve the the international group. [00:44:00] And, um, I sort of chuckle with afterwards and I said, Hey, you won't. I said you won't even get as well as this. You might even make the world news, you know, um, so we just had a laugh about it, but it's given them something to think about, but, um, I I've noticed even in Auckland, that when the same sex marriage came out, uh, the Tongan churches, and they have that right in New Zealand. As you know, uh, were very strong protesters. You know against [00:44:30] that when it came through in New Zealand a couple of years ago. Right. Let's just move on. Just one, one at church. Yes. That wasn't the general. No, no, no. It was just one church, and they came together as a group there. And, um, they must be delighted that they got this publicity because they stuck [00:45:00] it on you. They they Well, that actually appeared in the Tongan paper, I think. I. I saw it on the They did a lot of verbal abuse. They did. They had a lot of verbal abuse from the from the public. They did all the vehicles that if I had to to actually record the the words that came out of people's mouth Sure that two days, um, it's worse than what they're saying on the banner. [00:45:30] You know, it was when I talked to him, you know, because a lot of people were angry. Um, because most of the especially the game from our teams, because we you know, we help them a lot in a lot of their stuff and they were cussing them, cursing and throwing things. And I think [00:46:00] on the last day they got there in the morning and they didn't even last for about a an hour or two. Then they left because there was hardly anyone from their own church and ended up with six people only. They started with 12 12, and, um, yeah, it was less and less. But then some of them, some of their own people, they were standing, you know, [00:46:30] said, Oh, well, we might as well just go home. And because it was all are done by their own president of their church, you know? But, um, thank you for that. OK, Fiji. These are something I picked up very recent. Um, in January, you may have read about it. It it made the newspapers here. Um, Mr Bin Barama, the, uh, Fiji Prime Minister on his comments there. [00:47:00] I don't need to read it out. Do you have any comment to make on that? The PT perspective? Yeah. Yeah, you'd be aware of that. Our, um our listen to Fiji thinks it's quite a a very tragic statement, that sort of rubbish here. Well, [00:47:30] you know, out of the, uh um, the head of state Prime Minister's mouth. That's quite condemning. It certainly is. And you know, what I'm doing now is just showing a deflection of, um, different things that are actually happening right now. This is a cutting I cut out of a, um, GL BT paper. As it was called, [00:48:00] um, 1995 the former late Prime Minister, Sir Geoffrey Henry was interviewed by New Zealand by a gay newspaper M to M on the and laws on the rights of GL BT I people and in particular, the fact that homosexuality was illegal in the cooks as it still is. And he gave what he felt was an honest opinion. You can see it there. Any politician who attempts to change [00:48:30] the laws would be committing political suicide. Um, this is sort of a bit, but I just be really interested to hear from people where they actually having laws that are supportive of, um uh, LBG relationships are supportive. Uh, may have made a difference. Were you here when I discuss the territories that have made a difference and why I'm asking [00:49:00] for personal, I'm talking about this and then personal life because I I went to to, um And it seemed to me that it wasn't, um and and I'm I'm sorry. I'm not sure if this woman talking about it seems like it's the community. And you've just talked about the prime Minister, and I'm just interested in how much difference those with laws that are supported and those that are actually how how different it is for the people living there. OK, well, the comment on this was the reason [00:49:30] why I put it down is because it really incensed a lot of people in Fiji that particular comment, Uh, not only from, uh, this community, but also from the wider public. They were rather incensed about their comment. And that's why I showed it just to create this sort of awareness. Right? Um, any other comments, right. Let's move on. I just want to flash through some of these things Now Here's [00:50:00] a case very recently of a lesbian couple Cook Islanders living in New Zealand who are hoping to renew their vows on a Cook Island beach. Um, this was actually in November of last year, and they were forced to move it to another Beach. But unfortunately, the community wouldn't allow it. Right? [00:50:30] And this incensed a lot of people in the cooks because I actually I. I picked up the the snippet from Radio New Zealand International. Um, that was only last November. Hey, we're looking at three months ago, OK? And I was especially, um, surprised at that, and I'll show you the reason why because my own experience with my partner [00:51:00] who's sitting in the front there, um was very, very positive, and we felt that things were really starting to move. So this was, um, one of the people from the sexual diversity group who was actually, um, did a performance. OK, Now, um, I just want to just make reference to the promoting change from within the territory. I really believe that in addition to the Pacific [00:51:30] free and equal, um, that this the particular sexual diversity groups, um, are the greatest chance of getting change within their territory because all six of them are really positive and committed. The representatives of five of them, um, are actually here. One person who I do want to acknowledge who's not here. I've been in touch [00:52:00] with who is the secretary um, Valentino, Uh, win one. Valerie, better known heirs who was secretary of the Cook Island Sexual Diversity Group. Um, he has been awarded a Queen's Award by the Cook Island government for the work that he's been doing within his diversity group. And I think that that is really, really positive, [00:52:30] don't you? So he'll be going to the queen, and he was nominated by the government for the work that he's doing with the sexual diversity group. Right. So, um, this is what, um, all of these groups plan on doing is trying to extend the network of people into the Pacific. So I just want to go through and those who have representation here. Um, I would welcome the, uh, input in terms of what's [00:53:00] happening. Right? Um, cook islands, um, that was founded right back in 2007. Operated for about two or three years, Had a website, uh, went into recess. Um, and then, um, the secretary or I referred to before, revived it about two years ago. He's very positive, very active. A smart guy under 30 years of age 27 with a B A and A and a law [00:53:30] degree and holding a senior position within government. And, um, you know, he's really committed to getting those. These particular laws changed. Um, in the in the cook islands, Um, he had hoped to be here, but because of communication problems, it didn't happen, right? The Samoa Association. Would anybody like to add any other comments to the very positive things that the association is already doing? That hasn't been said [00:54:00] in this sector here. So the important thing that I've actually, um, picked up by talking to one people is that they you know, uh, it's not just the they're concerned with, but the other sexual, um, minority groups. All right. Mhm. So this is what they want to do. Their objectives. [00:54:30] Anyway, somebody from some I like to make any other comments on what they're doing, OK, and their very presence here. The thing is, five of the territories are represented here. Uh, the 61 Cook islands. Um, yeah, but because communication breakdown, he wasn't able to make it. But II, I get the feeling that a very, very strong, homogeneous group all working for the same thing about trying to get [00:55:00] change within the particular territory right to that. OK, It's called the Tonga uh association, and, um, they have a similar objective. Now, some of these, um, sexual diversity groups, in addition to doing what they're doing, it's also been they've also taken on the role. The role of promoting safe sex, right, which I think is, [00:55:30] um is is is is is really important. Uh, anybody you want to pass? Any comments, ask on Tonga, right? Fiji, That's called the Fiji Pride Association. Um, I've got a few notes here. Advocates. So a similar thing, Um, advocating for human rights. Um, sexual orientation. And so Alright, [00:56:00] any comments? Fiji. But you want to add to the great work that that association is doing right? OK, onto, um onto PNG. So the kaal champions. Um, yeah. Um so, in addition to working in the same direction as the other Pacific groups are, they do have an important [00:56:30] role with promoting the same sex message. Just remember what I said earlier, that it has a huge population of 6.6 million twice the size of New Zealand. Um and, uh, yeah, they they've got a, you know, a tough road ahead, but that right up there now, two. Now, any comments so far that you would like to ask? Right now, the next one [00:57:00] is what I think is important. The future, you know, and I believe that there's a very positive hope, you know, for the future. Um, coming with the changing of these laws, it takes a long time. New Zealand, Uh, their homosexuality law was passed 30 years ago. But the activists, um, [00:57:30] I understand, had been going for more than 30 years before that to get to that, so it's not gonna happen immediately. So, you know, I, I really believe that the the the the excellent work that the the Pacific Sexual Diversity Group is making. Um, so I think there's two sectors to it. The Pacific, um, diversity, Uh, uh, group in the territory, plus [00:58:00] the United Nations Group. But there is a third one, which I admitted which, um and that is the Pacific Islands Forum. Um, that is a meeting that's been going on for many years, every year for about the last. Uh, yeah. For many years, it used to be very much dominated by New Zealand and Australia. And, um um, you know, one of the positive things about it was, Fiji pointed out that it's not about Australia and New Zealand. It's about the Pacific, [00:58:30] you know? And I did bring up in a forum earlier on and and just suggested that that was a very useful way, um, for the Pacific Destiny group to work because I'd actually worked with, um on that with an educational issue with some of the territories. Now, obviously, it's a fairly contentious issue this not all territories are going to do it, but I'd sort of suggested that that was something that would be a very powerful way [00:59:00] of getting the message through to the Pacific ministers is just a clear statement on human rights applying to GL BT i people. So those I think those three aspects that I've mentioned, I think the most likely to change the other aspect I just want to mention is that the, um, outside influence can sometimes [00:59:30] create a degree of negativity and the reason why I showed those those other slides here of, um, you know, to in that here we are. We had some well meaning gay activists who came over from Auckland, but it just was counterproductive and some Pacific territories tend to strongly resent overseas pressure, especially from Australia and New Zealand. You know, it's all [01:00:00] that's the comment that we want to make is that every country everybody is pushing us for homosexual law, reform, decriminalising homosexuality and marriage equality. Everybody's pushing and shouting and screaming and saying Yeah, yeah, you gotta do this. It's humanization mandated but not one, not one of those countries, not one of those organisations is actually coming to the Pacific and actually living with Pacific LGBTI people and seeing and documenting their lived experience. [01:00:30] Because our lived experience in the Pacific completely different to this picture that's painted out as this. It's a haven and we're being persecuted on a daily basis and, you know, gutted and thrown in the in, the in the gutter. That's not what it is, and and and and and and before before they made determinations about about where we are in light of this and this is this goes to the United Nations and and and I've said this many times is the United Nations needs [01:01:00] to find a mechanism which measures the lived experience of of of indigenous and people in the Pacific right against find a way to introduce that Somebody find a way because you know what? These people are really smart. They're very smart people. They have a lot of letters next to their names and they should come to us and sort of say, OK, it's not just about the law of the land. It is about your customs and your cultures and and your lived experience. And we want to measure [01:01:30] how that has to have an impact. That's what we wanna see in the Pacific we don't want No, no, no. You know, fool coming to us and saying, Yeah, you need to legalise homosexuality. I'm like, Nigga, please, like, you know, we, we we we can do that ourselves. And everybody has, like, the thing is, every all our families know what we do underneath the cocoa trees are in the dark. They all know that. But they pay. They pay no attention to that because they know in the morning we get up and we perform. We perform for our families and our communities. [01:02:00] And that's that's that's a lived experience that people need to understand. And and, uh, I'm glad you reinforced that because the very point that I made is that external influence other than from the way the United Nations free and easy group is likely to be counterproductive. But it's got to come from within. We agree on. It's got to come from from the Pacific Sexual Diversity Group, like in the case of Samoa, [01:02:30] the group group and and so on, right? So it's got to come from within. And I think the other thing we need to acknowledge is that the lifestyle in spite of these laws goes on and people are not really harassed in the majority. You know, if we if we get harassed and one of our members actually gets executed and dragged and and and killed the whole world will know about [01:03:00] it like you know, LGBTI communities in the Pacific, they'll get on the coconut whaler, they'll ring. CNN and Fox News will be down there in a G and everybody will have their lipstick and their and their big head dresses on and say, Oh my God, they dragged us in the middle of the night and they killed us. You know what I mean? Like, that's what we do. But I I think from on a positive not. Please, please. If you want to know about the Pacific, come to us. Come to the Pacific, get on a plane and and use some of your funding. You're never ever any funding to [01:03:30] come in and and sit with us, and we'll show you how we live in the Pacific under the you know, the spices of these apparently dark days of, you know, homosexual, powerful message. And keep saying that to any other comments. Can I just like, First of all, I wanna apologise if I was Hey, look, I invited comments [01:04:00] before, and you know, we've spoken, and you have AAA strong passion for, um, your culture and a great deal of respect for it. And, um, thanks very much indeed. For the input that you've you've done OK, Can I answer something of what you said? Um, I think that of course I cannot say anything about, um, Pacifica. I cannot say much about [01:04:30] Pacific time. It's whether we listen to it or not that No, no, it's the fact that I don't know, this is what I say, but, um, about the United Nation, I think they as much as they are having all of this new resolutions and all of this debate is growing and it's blooming now. They are very much, far, far behind on LGBT issues. And the problem with the United Nations is that they [01:05:00] only understand the law, and sometimes they have problems going behind that. And as much as, uh, your, uh, your point about, um, debate and everything, it's probably it's difficult to make it to be understood by international organisations like the United Nations. It's something that needs first to be understood within the transnational advocacy, probably, and [01:05:30] with the partners that, um, Samoan or Pacific Islanders have in the international arena before the United Nations because it will never come from them. In my opinion, I agree. I agree it's something that needs to be driven by us, but they're going to have to listen because every four years 22 nations in the Pacific get reviewed in the U PR and 2022 22 times every four years, [01:06:00] we're going to go to the United Nations, and we're going to say honey lived experience over law of the land, you know? Come and see how we live in the Pacific, you know it's not. Yeah, I mean, you know, when you look at it from a legal perspective Oh, it's it's the It's the dark times it's Satan's, You know? It's like, Oh my God, it's like you know, everything is like, you know, illegal. Or but if you look at it from when you live on the ground and every day you wake up and you swallow the dust and you go and find food for your family, [01:06:30] it's not really that that that that important to us, our communities support us. And they say, Hey, I know, you know, just make sure you don't don't do it between church times or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, and that's the That's the understanding That's the community rights that that we and I like to speak from my heart experience and travel through separate Pacific territories, including Samoa, Fiji, China, French Polynesia, cook ISS and so on. But we've always been treated [01:07:00] with the utmost of respect, you know, and we've just taken part of of in the in the culture, attend a church, were appropriate and, um yeah, and like one of the one of the things that we need to also watch out for in the Pacific is our own people, our own L, GB, IG BT I people that live in in in overseas countries and then get on a plane and come home and they expect the freedoms that have been afforded to them in a western country to be the same. So they [01:07:30] wanna come in and and their wedding in Samoa, and then we turn around and say, Please, you know, and then they go, Oh, my God, it's fringing on my rights, my human rights. What about my human rights? You know, like me, Please, it's it's all it's all those sorts of things that we need to take into account. But at the end of the day, we we're all human beings, you know, waking up every morning, trying to make do with what our responsibilities are. And we just need to find the the the right, you know, environment. And [01:08:00] I'm telling you now that for us in Samoa and Tonga and you know, we we are very much entrenched in our communities and and those communities afford us the protection, that which you know which, which the United Nations and other monitoring organisations don't see. They don't see that. I thank you very much for your sincere comments, Any final comment from anybody else. So it can be said to be all Thank you very much indeed. [01:08:30] Um, I enjoy hearing.
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